Louis C.K.

Louis C. K. is a stand-up comedian, writer, director, and actor. A six-time Emmy and three-time Grammy winner, he is known for specials including Shameless, Chewed Up, Hilarious, and Sincerely, Louis C. K., as well as for creating and starring in the Peabody Award–winning series Louie and Horace and Pete. Over a career spanning more than four decades, he has also released specials including Sorry, Louis C. K. at the Dolby, and Back to the Garden. On Tuesday, June 30, his most recent stand-up special, Ridiculous, released on Netflix. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Anthropic https://Claude.com/tetra ------ AG1 https://DrinkAG1.com/tetra ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www. AthleticNicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://DrinkLMNT.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Lectio 365 https://Lectio365.com ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter Follow Tetragrammaton: https://x.com/tetranow https://www.instagram.com/tetragrammaton.now Follow Rick: https://x.com/rickrubin https://www.instagram.com/rickrubin Follow Louis C. K.: https://www.instagram.com/louisckx

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  My brain knows when a joke is there, right? So like comedy is something you find, you strike gold sort of. You're talking to somebody and you go, hey, I noticed that made this observation today. And then you go, that's a bit, I know that's a bit. I keep it fluid in my head somewhere unformed and unfigured out. And then the next time I'm on stage in front of them, I work out what I've, it's in the main memory.

• 0:53Rick Rubin?

  Is it a stressful process?

• 0:56Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 0:57Rick Rubin?

  Well, you're on stage in front of people. They have some expectation that they're gonna get something from you. You don't know what you're gonna say.

• 1:05Speaker 00

  No, you don't really know.

• 1:05Rick Rubin?

  That sounds stressful.

• 1:07Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:08Rick Rubin?

  Well, yeah.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  I only find that very exciting and warm and fluid.

• 1:12Rick Rubin?

  Has always been the case.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  I don't perfectly remember that far back, but no, I think it wasn't in the beginning.

• 1:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:20Speaker 00

  But you know when you have something and you go like, oh, this is a good one. There's different bits, it depends on the bit. Because there are some bits that are just like boom, that's great, that's always gonna kill. There's always a little question. Sometimes you come up with stuff like, I was backstage with my friend in San Francisco and I thought of this bit right before I went on. And so to me, in terms of like, is it stressful? So I'm about to do a concert in San Francisco at the Masonic Temple. It's an important show, you know, I don't know, it's got some, it's a major city and I wanna really kill. And instead of doing what I know is gonna work, I'm about to open with a totally unknown joke.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Of places it's touching. And if I can really master that, then that's really, that's, boy, is that a bit, right?

• 4:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  Rather than just twanging. So if I have a bit that like kills right away because it's, it's touching on a modern subject, or it's hitting a, you know, common note, which there's huge value in that and being able to do that. But most of the bits that I have that have turned into like bits that like people come back and tell me they loved, or bits that have stood up as, I'm really proud of that one. Most of those started in deep disturbed silence. The first times I did them, people were like, no, we don't want to do that. And I would feel uncomfortable and it would be stressful, very stressful. And I'm kind of like, damn it, because I'm gonna have to do this bit and fail with it

• 4:47Speaker 00

  for the next three months before it turns into something, but I already, but I have that, I have the nose, that could be a great bit.

• 4:54Rick Rubin?

  Do you have any sense of how long that idea will carry you in a set?

• 5:01Speaker 00

  No. I've been surprised sometimes by what bits have grown. But they're seeds, jokes are seeds. And sometimes they just polish and harden and stay the same size and they, you end up with a nut. And sometimes they sprout and grow roots and all kinds of shit, like crazy shit.

• 5:25Rick Rubin?

  Do you think of it as a conversation with the audience?

• 5:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. You're Miles Davis and you have a horn that you play all the time, maybe he's got two or three, but it's like, that's my horn, no matter where I am. Every time I've met a great musician, like Paul Simon, a guy I was hanging out with for a while, because we did a song together for a show I did, and he picked up his guitar and I'm like, that's your guitar, do you know what I mean? Like that guitar's been with you. He's got a few guitars, but that's his guitar.

• 5:54Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  For me, it's like, it's a different guitar every time. Every single show is a different audience, but I'm dedicated to them. And the show's for them, like I'm working on stuff. And they, they affect the bit. They have a vote, you know? So if I'm in front of, early, early on, I'm in a club, so it's sometimes 200 people, sometimes less. That means that if I'm in front of a hundred people, like one of them's got like 1% sort of like say in what I'm doing on stage. But just for that night, sometimes when they don't like it, that means I'm gonna keep doing it. So it doesn't mean yes or no. Again, if you're going yes, no. I know a lot of comedians are like, oh, they those people didn't like me, or they they're not gonna, you know, it's not about that.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  If you can detach from the personal and the judgment and the feeling of validation, you can get so much more done. You can get such a wider and again, it's not saying like fuck them or I don't care. It's saying if you can just detach from the moment of validation meaning so much, then you can really hear that there's a lot in silence. There's a huge range.

• 7:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  I was doing a bit earlier this year. I would hear one guy always go, Jesus, in the silence. And then that would make people chuckle and I would just sit there and I would just nod at them. And I'll go, huh? And then let that let it grow and grow and grow. And I learned so much. I ended up cutting that bit. Because it never grew. There was something wrong with it and there wasn't even it wasn't even good or bad. I just said I did it enough.

• 7:34Rick Rubin?

  Is it different if it's a small group of people versus a big group of people?

• 7:37Speaker 00

  Huge difference, yeah. They have kind of yin yang differences and similarities. So a smaller group of people is more pressure. Because you're looking right at them, you're with them, you can't escape them. You're not on a different plane from them. You're in a little often a little club. They're eating nachos. A waitress walks right in front of you like you. It's like there's no, it just peels away all of the luster of it. And also, when you're done with it, you gotta keep going. In a sense, but also you can connect with one person with a few people. You can tease it out. You can hear all these different things going on. You can hear better. I also like when I see people.

• 8:20Speaker 00

  I like looking at them and I like when I see, I get a sense of why someone's there. And why a joke sometimes not only is funny to them, but means something to them. Or when I see a guy like in a golf shirt with a buzz cut. You know what I mean? It was like a real type A, red faced American and I'm doing something really dumb. And he's just holding his face and going, I don't understand why I'm listening to this. And I love him and I just love him so much. And then when you're in a big room, you're hand, you're kind of a spectacle, you're doing a concert. And their response comes back more like a hiss rather than a ha, ha, ha, ha. It's like a ha, ha. And you hear that and you time to it and it's more you versus them.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  You gotta be really good to find the personal in that and to connect with them. You gotta really be good at it. You gotta learn every size room. You have to learn it and know how they're different from each other. It's all dynamics. And it all just comes with like repetition and experience. And then there's mid range. If you do like town hall in New York City, like 1500 seats, 1200. That's pretty goddamn sweet because it has the importance of the theater. Like we're all here sitting forward to see something rather than a nightclub. Where they're sitting at tables and drinking and stuff. And that can feel really good and you, it's still intimate. But, and then you get to arenas and now you're really, it's so separate and.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Part of why they're there is because they're happy you've made it to an arena and they're celebrating with you.

• 9:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, they're on your side.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  That's right. But it's not really fair to them, I don't think. I think that if a comedian gets an arena tour, he should do it or she. But don't do it again. Like let them come. But next time you're in town, you should be in the theater. That's what I think. And there's a feeling of like, I just wrote a great hour. I want a lot of people to see it. That's got something to it, but it's not proper for stand up. It's a theater is barely right.

• 10:24Rick Rubin?

  Do you think of what you do as a performance or is it something different than that?

• 10:27Speaker 00

  Performance? It's not just a performance. It's also.

• 10:33Speaker 00

  Conveying, it's talking, you're talking. I go in and out of being myself. It's many things. It's, this is a wide range of stuff that goes on up there. I guess overall, yeah, that's a performance.

• 10:45Rick Rubin?

  Can you do it one on one? Like if you were to sit at a dinner table with someone, could the same thing happen that happens on stage with one person?

• 10:53Speaker 00

  I don't think so, no. You can tap the same part of yourself. But it's not, no. Something about an audience. There's something about the potential in the room and the fact that they can be going, that they can explode, that the whole place can blow up. There's a thing that happens sometimes when a show gets a momentum, where you go, holy shit, what's going on in here? And that doesn't happen in a small group. But it can also happen in a club. 300 people can really rock. I mean, what I've enjoyed recently, just because I've gotten into the, I've done it for long enough to get into the finer points. It's like, they have no idea where I'm going. They have no, they could never. If you paused when I bring up some, a subject

• 11:38Speaker 00

  and go, tell me how I'm gonna finish it. They're not, not even another comedian's gonna know. It's completely bizarre to them. And they're like, what? Now you have them on their heels. They don't even know. There's no point of reference for the conversation. That's what I like, where it's not even like, yeah, yeah, we know this stuff about the news or this social trend. Yeah, yeah. Which side are you on? Okay, I got it. And, oh, you're doing, you're cutting those gems of those ideas so well. And, and again, that's a great thing to be able to do. But to have them going like, I don't understand why this guy brings up the things he brings up. I don't expect any of the things he says. And yet somehow they've connected as, as real for them, you know?

• 12:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  That's crowd, that's a crowd.

• 12:28Speaker 02

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• 14:21Rick Rubin?

  What's the longest you've ever gone not getting on stage?

• 14:25Speaker 00

  A year and a half.

• 14:27Rick Rubin?

  And what was that like?

• 14:28Speaker 00

  It was great. Yeah, I really loved it. And I never missed it.

• 14:33Rick Rubin?

  That's interesting.

• 14:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:35Rick Rubin?

  Because what you're describing sounds like a therapeutic relationship with the audience.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  Huh, I think it's not.

• 14:43Rick Rubin?

  That's interesting.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not.

• 14:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 00

  Just going back, I'm saying things before, it is stressful. And it's draining.

• 14:53Rick Rubin?

  You think it's draining because you have to be on your toes? Or do you think it's just the energy of a lot of people in a space?

• 14:58Speaker 00

  I think it's both, like, I, I, there's times, and if you're really a professional and you're really out there working and you're dedicated to it, it means you're gonna do it sometimes, you don't wanna do it. It's not a hobby. So sometimes you're like, I don't wanna fucking do this. And in that way, I think stand-up is harder than, possibly than a lot of things. Like, for instance, if you're a painter and you're like, I don't wanna go in today, I don't wanna go in my studio, but I'm gonna go in. While you're in your studio, you can stop, smoke a cigarette, you can eat something. Even if you're on a stage doing a concert, between songs, you can take a drink of beer or let this guy take a solo, I don't know.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  But stand-up is this constant presence and constant crackling, even when you're doing some relaxing and pushing and different things. You're going to, for one hour, you're in it. You're in it. And so there are some times when I'm backstage and I'm like, I really rebel inside, I'm like, I don't wanna fucking do this. And this last tour, it was a lot of those nights.

• 16:04Rick Rubin?

  Why do you think, what's different?

• 16:06Speaker 00

  Might be age. I think, because here's what happened, I took, so I, I did a lot of tours in a row at one point. I did like, three years where I just wasn't, I took very little downtime. I got pretty burnt. And then I did a show at Madison Square Garden. And it was, I built a whole year up to it. And it was the last show of the year.

• 16:27Rick Rubin?

  Was it the first time you ever played there?

• 16:28Speaker 00

  No, I'd played, played there like 10 times before. But I hadn't been there for a long time. It was really beautiful to go back because when I was there before I had built to doing things like that in a way that didn't feel important. It just felt like this is the next thing, this is the next thing. And I remember being at the Garden the first few times and going like, this doesn't even feel like a big deal to me just because I built to it gradually. I know I'm just here to work, but I was like, I wish I could feel this was like special. I guess it's a big deal. But the next time I went there, I did like, I guess I did like nine shows there back then. And so 2023 January, I did one show there and I didn't think I'd, I expected never to be back in the Garden.

• 17:13Speaker 00

  And so when I got that one, I was like, I'm doing one show. I maybe could have sold another one out, but like, let's do one show and just really fucking enjoy it this time, like really love that it's such a big fun thing. And I did it in the round, so I had the whole crowd around me. It was like 19,000 people and we livestreamed it on my website, which because you have to have cameras covering you at the Garden so that you can be on the Jumbotron. And I asked my web guy, what would it cost to just put that on live on the website? And he's like $12 or something. It's like nothing.

• 17:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  And we made the livestream live like an hour before the show started. So we, we knew because you can tell like thousands of, about a hundred thousand people watched it, but a bunch of them were there just watching the garden fill up. And there was such a beautiful feeling there. Anyway, so I did this show and the whole year had built to it and it was a really long tour and two before that. I got on that stage, I did that show, I felt like it was just every bit executed really. The Garden is tricky because your, your sound is too big for speech. It's meant for resident music and talking. It's slaps and slaps and there's you, you hear.

• 18:30Rick Rubin?

  You hear it echo back and it throws off.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  Yes. Even with good wedge monitors, like the worst place in the world for standup is Carnegie Hall because of the resonance of the room.

• 18:41Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Your vowels are hanging in the air and you're talking through them. But I know how to do it. So I was really pacing. I just was like this show, that bit, and also I'm just these bits, I never have to do that one again. I never have to do this last time doing them. People leapt at their feet at the end. And as I, as I walked off the stage, a voice in my head said very warmly, and I didn't expect this, I hadn't been thinking of this. It said, "You never have to do that ever again if you don't want to."

• 19:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, that's a great feeling.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  I had been doing stand-up since I was 18 years old. And I heard that and I was like, "That feels good." And the whole night, I kept turning it over in my head. "You never have to like, you never have to do that again if you don't want to." And the next day, I was like, in the privacy of my heart, I said, "I'm not a comedian anymore. I don't do that anymore."

• 19:42Speaker 00

  And I just started to live life that way. And I had just moved to a new apartment. I had this house in New York City. My kids were now grown up and it was just too big. So I had this new apartment. The show was done. I had this feeling. A week later, I'm walking past this pink building I always passed. It was a, it was an art school, a very old art school in New York City. I didn't go to college. I looked online. They, they had classes at night. You just sign up and they had a sculpture class starting that night. And I'm like, I'm gonna, I signed up and I went. And I ended up spending the next year taking sculpture and painting classes. So that, getting deeply involved in it. And I wrote a novel.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  And every time I would check, "What about stand-up?" I would say, "I love it." And I remember, I'd have memories of stand-up, like, "God, I love it so much." And I had such great, beautiful success in stand-up and such great experiences, great challenges. It brought out the best in me. I made beautiful friends. I'm proud of the work I did. And none of that compels me to keep doing it. It's like, that's it. So for a whole year, I didn't do it. And then I got into the second year and I started to feel a festering, like something stunk. Cause now I'm in a second year of like some kind of weird early retirement. And I started thinking of jokes. They just started coming.

• 21:10Speaker 00

  Oh, there's a bit. And the first one was I was somewhere with somebody out in the woods. And they were checking our phones. I said, I said, "Mine's only got one bar and it's a gay bar." And I was like, that's so dumb. And it made me smile. And I was like, that is the dumbest thing I ever said. And it's a perfectly good joke. And there it is. It's just sitting there. What's it gonna do all by itself?

• 21:39Rick Rubin?

  You know? Are dumb jokes better than smart jokes?

• 21:42Speaker 00

  I love them. Yeah, I do.

• 21:44Rick Rubin?

  What is it?

• 21:45Speaker 00

  Well, I think maybe it's because a smart joke, you can track its source. And you can work it out. You can get under the hood. Almost anybody can. They could tell you how it works. But a dumb joke is a great mystery. A dumb joke came out, came from somewhere. I don't know where it came from. Like, I don't know why I thought of that. I know, I get it. It's just, it's a stupid joke.

• 22:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  But it's more connected to the mysterious for me. I think that like later that same day.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  It's the, were the two jokes that started this tour I just did, it was, it was about breastfeeding. About how some babies bite their mother on the nipple. And I said that my mom told me that I did that to her, which I don't remember, of course, because I was drunk.

• 22:33Rick Rubin?

  Great joke.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's really good, right?

• 22:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 00

  So I had those two. And I was like, ah. How do you just have those jokes in your head and not tell them to somebody? And I had it in my head. Do I go back on? And then I was at the Comedy Cellar. It's very close to my house. My friends were having a steak and I had a steak with them. I had such a good time and I felt a lot of love from my peers. And then I went in there again. I'm like, am I going on stage? I don't know. I don't know.

• 23:04Rick Rubin?

  But you got two jokes.

• 23:05Speaker 00

  I've got a couple of jokes. And the woman running the show that night, the manager came up to me and she said, somebody's not here. Can you fill in? And I was like, no, that's purpose. I'm, it's of service. I said, sure. And I asked a waitress for a pad and I just took anything that was unjelled. I just wrote, like, a few minutes of sort of like unformed ideas. And I went on stage, hadn't been on for all that time. And I told myself right before I went on the stage, you don't have to do this if you don't want to. You don't ever have. I kept that alive, that idea. You don't have to do this again if you don't want to. You don't have to. And I thought, if I do one set, that's not returning. That's just a set. And I'm on stage.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  I think it was when I did the nipple joke. And it was the way there was the the micro timing of my mother told me that I did that to her. Which of course I don't remember because I was drunk. There's a tiny hesitation because I was drunk.

• 24:10Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  And I did that joke all this last I ended up doing it the last two years because this was 2024 April. And I dragged that drunk further away.

• 24:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  And closer. Sometimes I would smash it right through it. Of course, I don't remember because I was drunk. Sometimes that really kills. Of course, I don't remember.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  Because I was drunk.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  Many, many, many thousands of ways to tell that joke.

• 24:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  But so when I was on stage and I did that, I dropped it right in. It was like if you were a piano player, never didn't play for a long time. And you just sit there and you just go.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  And you go, fuck, I'm good.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  I'm fucking good. It's one thing to be on in an audience and watch some and exalt in someone's little abilities. Like, that's the fun part, right? Like, ah, I know how he did it, but I couldn't have. It's another thing to be inside the body and go like, wow. Because I I'm not perfectly in contact with these with this ability all the time. Sometimes it just happens. But I get to be the first one to see it, you know? So after that set, I was like, that's gonna be tough not to continue this. And I came back another time, screwing around, fun. You don't have to do this if you don't want to. And good, they loved me. Second audience, they they were really into the material. It was really great.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Then I went back and it was a bad night. Bad, just cranky people, not into it. And it required some thrust and some ability to take the heat and withstand it. And I wasn't in that kind of shape. I wasn't doing it anymore. And it hurt really bad.

• 25:57Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  And I thought, OK, you have to start thinking about, are you doing this or not? Because it's not, it's an unsafe hobby. So. Put up or shut up, like get it, get shit or get off the pot. So I kinda sat with myself and said, are you doing it or not? And I said, yeah, you're do, I'm doing it. It means I have to start doing the stuff I don't wanna do. It's gotta stop being fun.

• 26:18Rick Rubin?

  At the end of the garden show.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:20Rick Rubin?

  You heard the voice. You don't have to do this anymore.

• 26:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:24Rick Rubin?

  What do you think that voice was?

• 26:27Speaker 00

  I think it was some kind of inner caretaker or something. Or I have a thing where I look up at the sky in the morning. And that's where I put my early, you know, when you wake up in bed, usually all your big questions and problems, you wake up to them. And if you lay in bed, it's not gonna get any better. Like it's a bad place to contemplate. So I try to get to a window and open, I try to get my face to the sky. Try to see some sky or trees, just look at everything and put my questions out there. Some of them become incredibly small, of course.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  And then some of them, I'm like, I can see it in the breeze or I can just get a sense of where things should be. And I hadn't really started doing that then, yet. But I was headed towards it. That's another thing that happened during that year is I had a lot of big changes internally. So, and I started that practice. And then I meditate. So I wasn't doing that then, but I think it was a beginning of something. Now I know who, who, who it was. But I didn't then in a sense. But yeah, I have kinda like a voice that kinda is warm and caring and it ain't worried about the little stuff.

• 27:48Rick Rubin?

  With the gay bar joke.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:50Rick Rubin?

  Did you hear it before you said it or did it just come out?

• 27:54Speaker 00

  Such a good question, cuz I don't know. There's some jokes I have done that I can't recall the inception of it. Like it just popped out.

• 28:04Rick Rubin?

  Could you have stopped yourself from saying it if you wanted to?

• 28:07Speaker 00

  Oh, well, I was with somebody I wanted to make laugh and please, somebody I was really enjoying time with.

• 28:13Rick Rubin?

  If you were with someone who you think they wouldn't like this joke, would you maybe not have done it?

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Oh, sure. I mean, one on one, I can, yeah, I'm not crazy. I mean, I'm not obnoxious. I am when I'm with somebody who likes me to be. And with an audience, it's a mix. They're all gonna feel differently. But that's what comedy, the actual event of comedy is a, is an agreement. That we're gonna go into territory we're not supposed to. And you're all gonna feel differently about it, about different parts of it, and that's okay. I don't think that comedians should be shielded from people being offended. It's part of it. Like, what are you doing it for? You just want people to cheer you? You let them have their feelings. It's okay.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  And also, it's not the last feeling they're ever gonna have. And they're gonna be okay, and so are you. Because it's a comedy. I didn't just walk onto a subway train or into a church and say, hey, suck my dick. What? You know, like, it's, it's an agreement. And everyone's in it on some, and not everybody's, they don't sit and read it, and they don't, they didn't give it as much thought as I did. So I can give them grace. I'm like, they're upset, but hey, I got you. I mean, a thing I started to develop as a practice on the stage is that upsetting people is just temporary, right? And if you're willing to do it, if you do it like, yeah, fuck off, I don't care what you think,

• 29:43Speaker 00

  then you're gonna pay for that by, they're gonna, they're gonna tense up, right? But if you go like, hey, I swear to God, this is worth it. Just stick with me here, cuz I, I want them to like it. I want them to really dig it. I wanna connect with them. So I take them, stray them way out, like, okay, now we're gonna talk about this. And they're like, whoa. And I convey, and this is all undertones. And it takes, that's why a bit that really, really horribly doesn't work, needs to be done again and again and again, because you haven't figured out yet, how, where they're, you gotta hear their upset-ness. And instead of just going, well, that's bad, you go, oh, how are they upset?

• 30:25Speaker 00

  And none of this is sometimes thought of, it's like a gland inside. I hear it, so next time I do it, I go, okay, I know that, I know about that, but just listen. And here's an indicator of where I'm going, it might help you. Or, I'm sorry, you're fucked and I'm gonna let you feel fucked for a little while. And then I'm gonna drop this in here and you're gonna go, oh my god. And then there's this intense feeling of like, I can't believe he got me to laugh in this place.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  What's better than that? So that means it's okay to upset them, because it's, it's, there's a purpose to it.

• 31:02Rick Rubin?

  Is the laugh stronger after they're upset? Is it a different laugh?

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, sometimes. It is, it's different. You hear sounds in it, you hear feelings in it. It's not just, ha, ha, ha, that's funny, it's like, oh, Jesus, whoa, man. Or like, come on, man, you can hear that in a laugh sometimes.

• 31:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  And you string those along and then you, you know, there's a bunch of licenses you're taking from them in any given show.

• 31:34Rick Rubin?

  Is the goal for them to laugh? Or is the goal for connection?

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Both things happen. And again, a laugh is just one moment. So if you're really putting together a whole show, it's not just about telling a joke or some jokes. It's about everything that's gonna happen that night. And sometimes it's connected thematically, like we're gonna go through a journey and talk about all these different things that are connected, you know? I think I did that early in my career where it was kinda like a feeling of this is the kinda guy I am, I want you to know what kinda guy I am. And what I've been going through as a father, or as a husband, or as just a dude in America today. And here's all the ways that I'm fucked up, here's all the ways that I haven't figured life out, here's all the ways I'm confused and frustrated. I'm sharing this with you.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  And some of it, they are in it with you, like, yeah, of course, that's what it's like for us too. And some of it, they're like, where the fuck did you come up with that? That's crazy. Both are really worthy. That's connection. When you're connecting with people, you're both saying, right? And you're also saying, like, guess what? And they're like, that's crazy. Like, now they know something about you that they didn't know about anybody, that they've never heard before. That's great, too. So, that's connection. And then there's observation, which is like, here's what I see when I look out there, here's what I see. And there you're on thinner ice, cuz you're not talking about you, you know? Yeah, so there's laughs all inside of that.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  And they're part of, they're what's going on in here. But there is a conversation. So some shows, like the last show I did, it's called Ridiculous, that's my next special. I've been doing it for two years now. It's the most, it ended up being after that, you don't have to do this anymore, I ended up doing the most shows I've ever done on a tour in my life. And when I went around the world, and-

• 33:30Rick Rubin?

  Had you done that before?

• 33:31Speaker 00

  No, I've traveled a lot, I mean, to other countries. But I'd never circumnavigated the globe, which meant something to me. And I never went to India and all these other crazy places. But anyway, this show was called Ridiculous, and the bits were more combined in theme rather than like, subject, which was just dumb. It was a little dumb, a little bit of, those two jokes were kind of like the two, the two that were in there.

• 33:57Rick Rubin?

  Can you keep a dumb joke alive for a long time? Or are they fleeting?

• 34:02Speaker 00

  You've got to figure that out. How long is this worth talking about for? Or when do you just drop it and go? When do you drop a few of those dumb jokes? To sort of establish a feeling with them? Like, this is where I'm headed. Are you into it or not? But I don't know, length doesn't, that doesn't really matter. I mean, there's some subject. When you're talking for a long time, you're more likely in a subject. You're more likely discussing your feelings about something or telling a story. I mean, this show I just did contains one of the longest bits I ever did. About my dad and the home that he lives in. That he's, the senior care center that he lives in and what that's like. I mean, that got longer and longer and longer and longer.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  And that really brings the audience together. Because most people have somebody in that stage of life. And everyone feels some guilt that this person doesn't actually live in their home. It's like, that's, you know, you put your father in a fucking institution? That's crazy when you think about it. And I get into really grisly detail of what this place is like. And it gets really intense. And I always see people like, I see a woman leaning against her husband with her hand over her mouth. And she's laughing so hard, but she's also shaking her head going, goddammit, that's where my dad is. That's where he is. How did I do that to him? And yet I had to, of course I had to. And it was interesting taking that one around the world.

• 35:29Speaker 00

  I did it in Saudi Arabia and they just didn't know what the fuck I was talking about. And I asked them from the stage, like, do you put your parents in places like this? And they're like, what are you talking? It wasn't even like, no, we don't do that. It was like, what do you mean? Your father doesn't live in your house? Like, how do you tell your father you can't live here anymore? Like, they couldn't fathom it.

• 35:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, they're right.

• 35:52Speaker 00

  They, of course they are.

• 35:54Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 00

  And yet, every society, certainly Saudi Arabia, has like, you know, evils that they just, that they decide are okay. Because people are, have limits.

• 36:09Speaker 03

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• 38:10Rick Rubin?

  Is there anything else you do on the road besides the show that keeps you sane?

• 38:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have to take very good care of myself. When I wake up and look at the sky and then meditate, that's thing one that keeps me alive. And I battle with food the whole time on the road because I want to eat really well, or just at least measured and careful. I don't eat after about 6:00 PM, and I go straight to the hotel and go to bed after the show. I don't hang out after shows.

• 38:41Rick Rubin?

  But you can sleep right after a show?

• 38:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:43Rick Rubin?

  How long does it take to come down?

• 38:45Speaker 00

  The thing about stand-up and all performance probably is it just fills your body with, floods you with adrenaline. And also, it's this brutal thing of a show ending because you were just the center of attention for 2,500 people for like an hour, and then suddenly they turn their, they literally turn their backs on you. They just go home.

• 39:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  And they're together and you're not. And it's brutal.

• 39:08Rick Rubin?

  I never heard it expressed that way before.

• 39:10Speaker 00

  Well, the things you want to do, and also you're filled with unused adrenaline, and the things that adrenaline asks you to do is soak it up with food, match it with alcohol or stimulant, and connect with somebody, anybody. Have a deep and inappropriately sudden connection with anybody or all people. Go out, be in a group, feel, still keep feeling like people are looking at you, all this kind of stuff. I'm not somebody who did stand-up for validation. I don't, that just doesn't tickle me that much, so I'm lucky that way. But you do all these things and then you start to feel exhausted at the club, so you start taking more stimulants or alcohol as kind of a stimulant, really. But if you get in the car and go to the hotel, adrenaline leaves your body suddenly.

• 39:55Speaker 00

  And you get in the room and you go, "Thank fucking Christ I came home."

• 39:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  And if you didn't eat or drink, you'll actually go to sleep. And you'll sleep well because your stomach isn't working. So I try to get up early and I try not to eat past six and use the daytime. Go out, but I also respect the show, like sit, take long naps, get ready, lay still for a while. I bring an Apple TV module with me everywhere and I watch old movies constantly. I watch everything I can get my hands on. I've got the Turner Classic Movies app on the box and I watch their movies, Criterion, and I just search through old movies and that keeps me.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  And I write, I write in the day, I write fiction or whatever I'm working on.

• 40:46Rick Rubin?

  How important is rhythm in general in comedy?

• 40:49Speaker 00

  It's very big, it's huge. I, I think one of the things, the difference with comedy and a lot of music is that you can change on a dime. Like in, in music, if there's a key change, it's a big deal, right? It's a big moment. In comedy, you can change them like every few seconds. And sometimes it behooves you to be on a rhythm, to be talking and this, and then this, and then this, and it's building and building and building and da, da, da, and stop. And then this, and then this, and you know. There was a comic named Mark Pitta, used to do a bit, real simple bit, he'd just say, "I love Elvis," because all of his songs stop and start again.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  And that's a good confluence of two things, that's that, that's rhythm, disrupting rhythm. But you're always on some kind of, and sometimes you're not, sometimes you're way outside of it. And you're this, and you're this, talking, and then you, and then you get upset and you get into something like this, something like this, and the, and there are guys who do not work it out musically. There is a guy I saw, Daniel Kitson, I think his name is, he's British, and I don't think he has an expansive amount of work, because he's a very real guy. He's not like, "I'm a comedian with a career." I don't know him, but he was one of the best I ever saw.

• 42:10Speaker 00

  He just talking, he was just speaking his mind and revealing his heart and being very funny and vulnerable. And it was less this kind of like stand-up comedy, it was less of that. And I don't know, I might have just been charmed by him. I only saw him once. It could have been that if I saw him again, I'd be like, "Oh yeah, he's just doing this, he's got this all worked out." But the feeling was, this guy's just unspooling.

• 42:37Rick Rubin?

  How different was it doing comedy in different parts of the world?

• 42:40Speaker 00

  Stand-up is weird. It's gotten weird and it's got, it's kind of its own. It can feel like a cult sometimes. You go to someplace like India or Bucharest or London, Paris, or fucking Chillicothe, Ohio, or Norton, Virginia, or Orlando, and they're all the same. Comedy fans are the same everywhere. People love it. They watch it on YouTube. They watch it on Netflix. And then when you meet comedians from other countries, like we've met all these Indian comedians. I couldn't have been in a more strange place to me than India.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  And these comedians, I'm like, yeah, that's that guy. That's that guy. It's the same guy. It's always that, you know? It's the same. Same as the ones that were in Turkey and the same when you meet comedians backstage anywhere else. One guy's kind of above it, you know? And then there's the guy who's painfully nerdy. And the one guy that stands more forward and talks to you a lot, he's a little better dressed. And then all of them behind him are like, could he shut the fuck up? They hate him. They hate that one guy who kind of says, I'm the one who was gonna talk to you. And all the other comedians hate him. And it's the same, the same everywhere. And I love that. That's a fellowship. That's sweet. But also, you know, I've been at it for too long. I'm a little sick of it in some ways.

• 44:02Rick Rubin?

  You feel like there's a lot of competition between comedians or is it more of a brotherhood?

• 44:07Speaker 00

  It's both. I think like anything else. There's people who are really out to get each other because their dreams are too intense to just be sweet about it. But then there, but I've made some beautiful friends as comedians. And then a lot of the people, you know, that's not your friend. It's a colleague or it's a competitor. Because it affects how people act towards you, you know? So you just, you just be careful or you just be, you know, just keep your boundaries. That's all.

• 44:36Rick Rubin?

  You mentioned before you get into trouble if you're not talking about yourself when you're onstage.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think a little. Well, you're on thinner ice. You can do it.

• 44:43Rick Rubin?

  Is the majority of what you talk about your inner state?

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Interstate? Yeah, I would say so. That's where I'm the safest. Either interstate or inner brain thought, you know. I think observations about nature are good. I think everybody should be doing that. Everybody should be sharing what they're noticing about life. But I like to keep those very general. Do you know what I mean? In terms of what is it like to be alive? That's just so much more interesting than like, I've noticed that here's the kind of things people are saying about trans people or the president. I mean, it's just like, I get that and I can really admire it when it's done well. But it feels disposable to me and I also am on, again, I'm on thin ice.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Like, I'm having an opinion somebody probably has had before. It's an opinion. An opinion is not an observation. An observation is an opening. It's opening your eyes. An opinion is a closing. An opinion is like, that's it. That's the verdict. That's how I feel. Well, that's a shame. Like, what'd you do that for? Now you can't see anymore. It's blinding. And also, in this world, because nobody ever forgets anything anybody says, an opinion ends up being something you have to like defend. Well, actually, you should be interrogating it all the time. Like, I was talking to my girlfriend. She was passing by Equinox Gym in New York. Their windows have huge slogans on them with pictures of like

• 46:18Speaker 00

  fit people in sweaty, like, proud poses. And what the messages they give to that generation is just... So one of them says, "Question everything except yourself."

• 46:40Speaker 00

  What a crazy thing to tell people. Never question yourself. How are you gonna? What kind of person are you gonna become? To yourself or to people around you? You never question yourself. Or like I saw somebody sort of, you know, over some people over there of social media, they have like a stripe, like a banner. This woman depicts herself in her banner doing a warrior yoga pose. And it says in the script, "She gave her fear no space." It's such a shame to not give your fear. It's exactly what it needs. It's exactly when you have fear, you need to let it in and give it space. And you need to go, "Okay, I'm scared. Why am I scared? What's going on here?"

• 47:23Speaker 00

  And give it some compassion and some space and curiosity. Be curious about it. "Why am I afraid?" That's the first step of converting fear into a habitable place is ask yourself, "What am I? Why am I afraid of this?" And it's not about banishing the fear. It's about like, "What is it trying to teach me? What am I learning from this?" So I think that, yeah, that's why an observation is interesting. I have noticed that people are like, I'm telling you about these billboards. That's an observation. I think that's super fascinating that people are approaching life that way. An opinion would be, "Those people are assholes and they're making the wrong kind of, you know..." Well, okay, now where do you go from there?

• 48:08Speaker 00

  I want to know why people need that. Why do they need that, you know?

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• 49:45Speaker 04

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• 49:51Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about timeless material versus topical material. Do you think about it?

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do, because I do very little topical material. And when I started this new set, because I was trying to survive, I was coming back on stage. And so, like, the first stuff you do when you come back, because there's always coming back, because there's always like a cycle of, you know, doing, doing a show, taking it out on the road, building it and building it, and then usually shooting some kind of a special, which is like publishing it for posterity and for everyone in the world to see. And then you retire the material, that's what I do. You retire it and then you begin, then you take some time off. And when you're, when you come back, you got nothing again. You're, you're back to absolute zero.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  And you have, also, your timing is off because you're not, you haven't been on stage. And you're suddenly useless. You just have no, everything that key that lets you survive on. Stage is gone. And the last time you did it, you were like, perfect shape with great material. Yeah. But I love that. I love coming back and there's, you got nothing. But anyway, you go, if you think of stuff that's like just working, you do it. Just to get through, so that you can get through your time on stage. But anyway, I had bits about, a couple of bits about Trump, and I had bits about stuff I heard people saying on the news and trends of language, that kind of stuff. I had some of that stuff, and it was crushing. It was like the best. Because people know right away,

• 51:24Speaker 00

  there's a shorthand when you mention certain subjects. People go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, you know, that's on my mind all the time because I'm being peppered with it on social media. And other comedians are talking about it. So as soon as you get into that stuff, there's a, there's a firecracker. And everything, you get a lot of comfort from that. And I built about 12 minutes of topical material. General, but topical, not like, that's what DeSantis said today, but like, here's the way things have been going. It was killing. It was the centerpiece to the set. And when I started doing the hour, I had all this ridiculous stuff. Like the, like the nipple and the, and the gay, I mean, the gay bar.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  And I had this problem of these bits that are softer and strange and that go kind of like seesawing, like a rusty seesaw.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  You know, more than like boom, boom, boom, boom. And then I had this big, powerful stuff. And I didn't know where, I kept trying to figure out where to put it. And the whole set became about the competition between those two things. But it's like, that stuff's killing. I mean, that's what, and every comedian would come up to me afterwards and say, those bits are great, you know? What a great take on that. Blech. So, one night I'm in Omaha.

• 52:45Speaker 00

  And at the Funny Bone, which is a great, great club, a great testing ground. And I had just been in. I had been on, I was on it. I took a bus and did all these little clubs. I was in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and then Harrisburg, and then Youngstown and Columbus and Peoria. And then I'm in, and, and these are like a week at a time at each club. And now I'm in Omaha.

• 53:09Rick Rubin?

  A week at a time?

• 53:10Speaker 00

  Some of them, yeah, like, oh, oh, Columbus was a week. I ended up, that was like a, almost a two month trip. I, it took me up to Thunder Bay, Canada, and then down through Buffalo. But I'm in Omaha and I'm, I'm about to do the big fireworks stuff. And I thought, what if I don't? What if I drop it? All of it, all of it. What if this set is 50 minutes long instead of an hour? These, these people, they didn't pay that much. It's okay. And the set's quieter all the way through with no pyrotechnics. And it's just this one weird thing that's just got them off. And they were a quiet crowd too.

• 53:54Speaker 00

  And they were just sitting, listening to me and I'm keeping, I kept the tone. I kept this one tone of somewhat off putting, strange, somewhat, sometimes too long, weird bits. And they're like, what is it? What? Ah, okay. All right. And I said, good night on a softer close. And I got a standing ovation. And they were like, we just saw something. We like, cause, cause it was all connected. They were like, that was cool. When you do a joke that works and a joke that works and a joke that works. If those don't have a sort of like a, we're trying something we haven't seen before. They just, they go, all right. It's like going to see some movie like Toy Story or whatever.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  I don't even put, I never even saw it, but just some good flavorful movie. You go outside the theater and you go, what do you guys want to do now? Are you driving home? Do you want to get something to eat? You go to a show where you go like, wow, that was different. Even if you don't like it, you talk about it for like the next day, right? So that's. That's what it felt like, and this was not a cool hipster audience. These are Omaha, Nebraskan folks with real jobs. And they were like, that was fucking interesting, man. You don't get a standing ovation on a Tuesday night. This was special. So I just never did those bits again. I kept them out for the rest of the set.

• 55:13Rick Rubin?

  What was it about Omaha that made you want to punish that particular audience?

• 55:17Speaker 00

  Made me want to like not give them the juice?

• 55:20Rick Rubin?

  Not give them the good stuff?

• 55:21Speaker 00

  I trusted them.

• 55:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:23Speaker 00

  I felt a trust. I felt like they were grownups and that they would go for it. And also, it was like a God forgive me.

• 55:32Rick Rubin?

  I love that you dropped those bits.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:35Rick Rubin?

  That just seems right.

• 55:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, it seemed really important and they killed. But I'm like, so what?

• 55:42Rick Rubin?

  Are there any jokes that are too far that you won't do them?

• 55:44Speaker 00

  What do you mean too far?

• 55:46Rick Rubin?

  That's for you to answer. Do you ever think of something as like, I can't say this in a room full of people?

• 55:53Speaker 00

  One.

• 55:55Speaker 00

  One. I think I did it early in this tour. I just didn't have the guts and it was worthy.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  And it wasn't because it was too far. I just didn't have the guts and I could have worked it out over time. Also, you know, things are different right now.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  And when levels get tweaked in society, it's in the room with you. And it just means it's different. It means that if you're not aware of that, you're just being stupid. You're not playing your instrument correctly.

• 56:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  I mean, if you're at a piano and one key just doesn't work, you can transpose your way around the piece, right? You can build the chords differently. So yeah, you gotta be, you gotta be thoughtful about that. Like they're not going to hear this the way they usually do. I kind of elevated and blew up at a time where doing stand up about transgressive ideas. People loved it. There just was this golden era for that. And look, whatever you do for, if you're going to really dedicate yourself to this kind of work, you do it the way you do it and you let that grow. But when trends change, you don't change for that. You keep doing your thing and you, if you're willing to do it for some decades,

• 57:11Speaker 00

  you have a decent chance that you're, you know, it's all timing. Did you master your way of doing it during the time where that way of doing it got big? And I mastered this kind of like, I'm gonna say this. No one says this, but I'm gonna say it. Right around the time where people are like, I love watching that. I mean, all over the world, people suddenly loved it. And I happened to just be a guy who just got really good at it. And I'd been doing it long enough and laid the groundwork over years and years of a career. It all worked out for me. But for years, I was doing that kind of stuff and people were like, we're not booking that guy. Cause that's fucked up. And I was an underground kind of guy.

• 57:54Speaker 00

  I worked at the Comedy Cellar, but I always closed. Cause.

• 57:58Rick Rubin?

  People will leave.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Well, because other comedians are like, I don't want to follow that shit. And, and yeah, people might leave, but I was a closer. Cause I was a fucking ham and egg just, and also I was really blunt then. And I was still didn't know how to do it great. I was just.

• 58:15Rick Rubin?

  Blam, blam, blam. Very funny, I imagine.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  It was, but it was also pretty my, it was, it was one thing. It was, it was one note. I wasn't very refined. I used fuck as a defense mechanism instead of as a note. This is fucking, fucking, fucking, fucking, fucking, fucking, fucking. And I, I listened to some of those early shows and I'm like, I, it makes me sick. But yeah, it was a bit of an uphill battle. And back then it was like the Christian right was who, was who set the tone that you shouldn't talk about certain things. And they created a, you know, the, the, the choicest gigs went to people that were a little more formal or cleaner or whatever it was. That's the way it was back then. It's a different group that's holding that line now.

• 58:58Speaker 00

  It's just something that Americans and maybe people need to feel like someone's telling them there's something you shouldn't be saying. It doesn't really matter which group is telling them, but it's just a necessary part of our, of our culture. To have somebody out there going like, you know, there's things you shouldn't say. Uh, but then there's these little in-between times where it's like, just go for it. And I was around for that. And then it got pushed back down. And so that changed the complexion of my time on stage, but not, not like I wasn't working. I've been doing big theaters and playing all over the world, putting out specials. They get bought in high numbers. It's all fine. I'm not the Tenderloin center. Now

• 59:41Speaker 00

  there's, everything's kind of bifurcated and a little confusing. I'm not sure how to read it anymore. And I think I'm too, I'm too old to really figure, I'm just too out of touch to really figure out what's going on, the algorithm, this kind of stuff. I don't know what the fuck they're doing now. It's departed into something else. But anyway, I guess what I'm saying is sometimes that, that saying something you're not supposed to say, people like, yeah, bring it, bring it, bring it. That's what it was. And it's like that for my audiences a lot of times. But we didn't have that for a while. So it changes how you write it. It doesn't mean I don't, I'm afraid of them. It means like there's something else in the room here. So let's just respect it.

• 1:00:19Rick Rubin?

  When you do a particularly edgy joke, maybe for the first time.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Rick Rubin?

  What's the feeling in your body on stage? Do you feel like you're jumping off a cliff?

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  I'll tell you exactly what it is. It's like you're gonna throw up and the joke being the vomit. I don't know how you feel about vomiting, but I have a really hard time with it. And whenever I feel I'm gonna vomit, I rebel and I'm like, I really don't wanna do this. And my body goes, you got it, you got, you're gonna do it. And then you start having this assuredness that it's coming out. And you know what I mean? It's like you're pregnant with it or something. You're gonna, this is gonna, this is coming. And there's not this, this limit to how much you could do about it. One example of that was like, I was doing this joke about a wheelchair in the store window. It was a drugstore and they were, and they were selling wheelchairs and they had one in the window, which is like for like impulse buys, you know? And I just, the observation was like, you know,

• 1:01:17Speaker 00

  I don't know if the wheelchair is something you buy because you saw it in the window and you think, you know what, I, I should get a wheelchair. And then I, this bit kept growing where I'd go, I should get a wheelchair. It would be so much easier than what I've been doing, which is dragging my body across the concrete for the past 20 years. And I kept doing that joke. I know I'm missing, there's a couple of the jokes on the way to that, but in Omaha also, it's a few years before, I was doing it and I realized, oh, there's another line here. Which is to say, unlike what I've been doing, which is dragging my body across concrete for the past 20 years since I went to the Boston Marathon.

• 1:02:05Speaker 00

  And it was right in front of me. And I was like, oh, God, I don't want to, they're gonna hate that. But it's there. And I know that's where this is going. I know it's where it's going. And I did it, I thought of it the first night in Omaha and I fought all week. And then one night I'm like, here it comes. And I tossed it out since I went to the Boston Marathon. Oh, God. They're just, the whole place went, no. And then I heard it. I heard their anger and it dawned on me and I said it right away. Wait a minute, you just, you were just laughing at a cripple

• 1:02:50Speaker 00

  for five jokes? And now you're upset because it's that particular, because that's how he got? Like, well, somebody that was born with a disease, fuck him, make fun of him all day. But not these particular legless people. And it turned into a whole bit about people's attitudes about the handicapped and how they kind of don't want to think about them. And that that whole thing of making them holy and sanctified is a way to stay away from thinking about them. Like the word retarded. And I did this whole bit about how it used to be signs that said, help the retarded. And there used to be retarded people that said, I'm retarded around the streets. I knew retarded people when I was younger and now I never see them.

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  You're not allowed to say that word anymore. And also they've kind of like, they're kind of gone. They're not in the mainstream anymore. You used to see a retarded guy with like a radio with a thing in his ear, in a windbreaker, you know, and you just see him or someone would be one of your neighbors. So anyway, that, crossing that line turned, there was just a massive amount of treasure on the other side of that line. But crossing it was really, that one night, that was really hard. And for the next like 10 times I did it, you know?

• 1:04:07Rick Rubin?

  And is it usually the case when you say the really questionable thing and the audience is horrified?

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Rick Rubin?

  It's an opening?

• 1:04:14Speaker 00

  Of course it is. If you're willing to make it an opening. If you back away and a lot of guys do a thing where they say things that offend people. And then when they don't like it, they go like, ah, they make fun of them for not liking it a little bit. And then they get away from it. And then they try to pad it with other things that are, you know, that are more acceptable. But there's great potential in sticking with it and sticking with it and sticking with it and not letting it go, you know? And also something that's different about this year for me with this ridiculous show. I don't want to upset them no more. I kind of didn't want to upset them anymore. Like, I didn't want to take them down that road. And I think that was a little bit of young man's game. And I think there were times where I got a little addicted to it. It started to have its own energy that wasn't so great.

• 1:04:57Speaker 00

  I mean, I'm glad I did it when I did it, but this year, I mean, look, I still say things all the time that people don't think you should say. And I can't, some of it, I just can't help it. It's just the way that I think.

• 1:05:10Rick Rubin?

  It seems almost like setting any limitation on what you can say forces you to be even better.

• 1:05:17Speaker 00

  Yes, that can be the case. I mean, definitely. I remember my sculpture teacher said to me a great thing I loved because mostly we were working with terracotta red clay. He said, "The problem with clay is it'll do whatever you want." And there's a, there's something about working with something that has resistance to it. You have to take turns with nature and go like, "I'm gonna try this." And that's what sculpture feels like, even red clay. Like, you go, "What if I do this?" And it's not what you expected, but then nature introduces another element that you go, "Okay, now nature took a turn." You go, "Okay, now I'm gonna try this based on this new condition." And then you'll be taught something by that. So I think you have to have that humility.

• 1:06:00Rick Rubin?

  That sounds a lot also like how you're describing your conversation with the audience too.

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I said, I'm listening to them and I'm letting them tell me where the contours are. And then I get better and better at driving it. But it's really important to remember, I did this show in Houston once and

• 1:06:22Speaker 00

  I had been doing that particular show for a while. I was like well oiled. Houston has a comedy club, the Improv, and mostly black comedians play there. And so much so that that's the boilerplate audience. So like when you play a club, your audience comes to see you, but there's some people that just go to that club, right? So Houston has a regular audience of black people. And all the comedians that are in big pictures on the walls are all black. And so I went there, we didn't do a ton of advertising, we just sort of like, it was like a last minute show. So I looked down and there's like this one table of black people dressed like Easter. It was like this woman was wearing this bright blue dress and she was wearing a colorful hat.

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

  She was beautiful. And I was doing this bit about child molesters. That the idea that if you made sex dolls of children that were like really vividly realistic and sexy, you might have less actual child molester going. Like you just, there was some bit about like, you don't have to worry about how to distribute them. Like you just dump them on the streets, they'll find, they'll come find them. But it was a bit about like, that it would be a good idea to make realistic child sex dolls. And I'd been doing that bit for a while. And the problem is that when I do a bit where I'm like, I'm gonna introduce this, they get upset.

• 1:07:50Speaker 00

  Okay, so here's, let me find a road, let me find a road to it. Trust me, I know you're upset, but it's okay. And then they, they get it, they start to get it more and more, and then the bit starts killing. It starts killing. And then I just get off on that it kills, because I'm so good at this. Like, I know how to do this. And then my feeling, the conveyance of a feeling during the bit, which is a big part of it, instead of it being like, look, I know child molesters, it's a tough subject, but I'm asking you to open your mind to a new thought about it. That's a way to be. I'd started doing the bit going like, here comes the next killer, here comes the next killer. But this is, this bit always kills. You're gonna love this. Everybody loves this one. Thank God I did it in Houston, because as I was starting it, this woman in the colorful hat was

• 1:08:35Speaker 00

  Looking at me like, that's fucking horrible. Why are you talking about that? And I looked at her and I realized, I forgot this bit's offensive to anybody. I forgot. And I'm doing it with like a smug bravado because I I'm given to that. I'm fucking funny. Fuck you. And so I started looking directly at her and I let her lead me and I went back to like, I know. Just here's an idea, just like, like she's pointing a gun at my face and I'm like, listen, just take a breath and listen. And she's like, mm hmm, kind of like, okay. And I go, how about this? She goes, yeah, that's true. And I go, how about this? And she goes,

• 1:09:18Speaker 00

  that's actually interesting, the way you're saying that. And then I go, how about this? And she laughs. And I'm like, that's fucking remember that. And she was in my head. She was in right lined in my mind every time I did that joke. For the rest of the year, including when I did it for the special.

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• 1:11:14Rick Rubin?

  How's playing in the round different?

• 1:11:17Speaker 00

  It's totally different because you're in constant motion. When you're in the round, you have to be because you can't give people your back more than a few seconds. I shot a special in the round. It was called, Oh My God. And I had done a few big specials and I just wanted to do something different. The main reason I did it was because the Celebrity Theater in Phoenix, George Carlin did a special there. I don't remember what his is called, but he was really in his prime. It's one of my favorite specials of his. I never remember the titles of his because he did so many. And the titles don't fucking matter. They don't mean shit. So he did a special there, the Celebrity Theater in Phoenix, I think it's about 3,500 seats and you're in

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  the center. It's a big circle. And there's a thing about specials that like you see the comedian with the stupid whatever he's got that they built behind him. And then you go to the audience and it's these two different planes and you can't combine them because he's talking out to them. And sometimes you can build a thrust on a stage and kind of get them out there. Cutting the audience members laughing is just, what are you doing? That's just not interesting. I don't think so. Some people do it. But the thing about doing it in the round with George, because it's also was like an amphitheater, like they're, they're in a bowl, right? You're down at the bottom and they're, the first, second row is at your eye level. And so they go up. So every time you see

• 1:12:42Speaker 00

  George, you're seeing people behind him. His audience is in every shot. And if you look at where to put the cameras, like a turret engine, they don't never have to look at each other. You just offset them. So I was like, this is fucking smart. I want to do one of these because I direct the specials too. And so I, we set up like four shows there to over two nights, I think. And I realized I've never done the round. Now, I've done a few, but I never really thought about. And I have to really think about how I'm doing it. And so there's a theater that's almost identical to the celebrity in Sacramento. They do theater there, like the dramatic theater and stuff.

• 1:13:23Speaker 00

  So I rented it for a couple of weeks before to get used to it. And when I got there, there was this kind of funny theater guy. It was the guy who runs the place. And a lot of times when you do theaters, you're just renting the place. So you don't really contact the, the culture of the place. But he was there, he was interested in watching. And I met him and he said, are you interested in knowing how to play the round? Like, do you like to know that there are rules to it? And I was like, yes. So he explained to me that the center is the power spot. The very center of the stage, you have the same equal access to the rest, to the whole audience and they have to you.

• 1:14:03Speaker 00

  If you walk towards the audience, you're actually cutting off your connection. If you look at it really simply, you're looking at a circle and you put the comedian in the center. He walks the way he's looking towards the lip of the stage, which is the natural, it's what you want to do. If you walk to that lip, now there's like this wedge of who in the audience can see him that's extremely narrow. And there's a massive amount of the audience looking at the sides of his head and his back. Right? So he said the two spots are the center and then the edge of the stage, but looking into the stage. You know what I mean? So you're stepping backwards so that your heels are at the edge of the stage and you're looking out.

• 1:14:45Rick Rubin?

  And you have the widest.

• 1:14:46Speaker 00

  You, now you have actually, that is the most exposure you can get is that spot. And now everyone can see you. It's a weird place for a comedian to stand. But more importantly, you just can't stop moving. You have to move in these kind of spirals. You just sort of like, you're always twisting and walking and twisting. Cause when you stand still and talk in one direction in the round, you feel a burning on your back. You just feel like a heat of eyes going. Like, why am I looking at the back of your fucking head? So it's tricky, but the fact that it keeps you moving, it's interesting. It just brings something different to the show. I guess the proper way to play the round would be to try to tour in the round for like a whole year.

• 1:15:30Speaker 00

  People do like, I know Chappelle, when he does big arena shows, I think he's mostly does them in the round. So he, he's getting a lot of experience doing that. And there's, there's more comedians playing arenas right now, and I think more of them are doing the round. I think Bargatze's last one was in the round, his last special. You're seeing more specials in the round because they're getting used to it. And also every single seat is better. When you're in, in the on end, as they call, the theater, the stage is on one end. Starting with the second row, the seats get shittier. There's only, the surface area, I mean, there's only like 15 people or whatever the fuck it is across that are, have the best seats. Then it gets worse and worse and worse and worse to the back of the theater.

• 1:16:13Speaker 00

  But in the round, there's so many better seats, just think about it.

• 1:16:17Rick Rubin?

  Is it different also hearing the laughs behind you? That must feel odd too.

• 1:16:22Speaker 00

  No, because they're coming equally, perfectly equally from all sides. So it's just crushing in on you. It's omnidirectional.

• 1:16:31Rick Rubin?

  Is the material the most important thing in comedy?

• 1:16:34Speaker 00

  God, no. I mean, the material is what you're doing that time. That's the stuff you're working on. And it depends on the person. There's some guys you just want to watch them, you know? And some guys are, that's the quality is like that guy. I just love watching that guy.

• 1:16:49Rick Rubin?

  Who would be like that?

• 1:16:50Speaker 00

  I think Zach Galifianakis is just, he's just wonderfully funny and not intentionally. He seemingly just can't help being like that, and that makes him really wonderful to watch. I remember I was reading about, there's the first real professional comedian in America was a guy named Artemis Ward. That was a stage name. His real name was Charles Foster Brown, I think. I read about him because I was reading a book about Abraham Lincoln and Abraham Lincoln loved Artemis Ward. It was a, it was a character. He, he wrote in character for a newspaper column and it was a ridiculous voice.

• 1:17:33Speaker 00

  And Artemis Ward started doing this thing. There was a thing back in the 1800s called the lyceum circuit. It was people lecturing about different subjects like nature or psychology or history. And it was a cool thing. I think that I think there's potential for it to come back someday. Regular people were going to watch professors lecture in like vaudeville theaters. And it was like three bucks. It was you just you paid and and just regular folks. So that's fucking interesting. And they'd listen to this guy give a lecture with like a placard and stuff. So Artemis Ward started doing those. The first show he ever did was Babe in the Woods.

• 1:18:14Speaker 00

  And it never mattered. He just would talk and he'd sound like a lecturer. But he'd be weaving his words. He had this wonderful way of talking. And the only recording we have of it is is an essay by Mark Twain because he went to one of these shows. And he said, the thing about Artemis Ward was you were convinced he had no interest in making you laugh. He actually was really trying to convey these ridiculous ideas to you. And whenever the audience would explode in laughter, he'd look a little heartbroken. And it was that like he's trying to say these things and you're not listening. And it was frustrating him. So certainly in that case, like it didn't matter what Artemis Ward was saying.

• 1:18:59Speaker 00

  But they loved watching this guy in that way. He ended up being a huge star. And he went to England where they loved him. And then he died of tuberculosis. He was 27. Very sad.

• 1:19:12Rick Rubin?

  When did you know you wanted to be a professional comedian?

• 1:19:16Speaker 00

  When I was a kid, I thought it would be cool, but I didn't really actually think that was something to plan to do. And then I tried it. I found I was really not natural at it. The first few times I did it were bad, like I just found no connection. And I actually felt really humiliated and bad. I hated it. And then I didn't do it for like a year. And then I found a place to do it. One by a guy named Ron Lynch, who's going to be opening for me at the ball. Ron was doing a weird, kind of strange.

• 1:19:52Speaker 00

  Comedy show at a movie theater in Cambridge and I started doing the shows there, doing sets and then I fell in love with it. I was working in a garage fixing cars then. I would go every night to watch, but I would get on stage every time I could and I made a friend who was a comedian, the guy named Amir Golon and Amir and I were walking from Cambridge to a club in Boston because we didn't have any money. So we're just like long, like two hour walk to try to get from one club to the other. We're walking across the BU Bridge. I'm now 18 and a half, maybe close to 19. And he said, you know, this is a real thing comedy and you, are you doing it or not?

• 1:20:34Speaker 00

  Are you a comedian? And I looked at the Charles River and I said, I'm a comedian. That's what I want. This is what I do. Everything flows from that decision. That's how I committed to it, better or worse.

• 1:20:48Rick Rubin?

  Was it always important to be on stage or was writing comedy also part of the picture?

• 1:20:54Speaker 00

  It was just repetition. Just get on stage anywhere. The worse the gig, the better. I always knew that was true, that if you're having a good time on stage, especially when you're developing, go find somewhere else to work because you're not growing. It's like if you had a, if you're like a boxer and you go into the gym and it's really easy. You're like, are we doing this or not?

• 1:21:17Rick Rubin?

  So you have to try to win over an audience.

• 1:21:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's also just like, these aren't my kind of people. They don't think like I do. I want to try to get them where I am. That's going to expand your tools. Going into a room of people that think what you think is cool is cool. Then all you have to do is like lead them around and, and they'll cheer you on. And there's a lot of people that make a great living that way. And there's nothing wrong with it, but I just think you get better at it if you're in adversity. So, so I was just all about being on stage, being on the stage, but I also was doing other stuff. I've always had a number of interests. So I made short films back then and, you know, sketch comedy and I wrote for a bunch of guys. So I always kind of kept it diverse, but standup was always the center of everything.

• 1:22:03Rick Rubin?

  When you would write for another comedian or for another show. Would you do it the same way? Or would you think in terms of who is gonna be delivering the material?

• 1:22:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, you think about them and it's fun that way. For me, it was kind of a thrill after years because it was a long time of only writing for this one guy. And it was really fun to be like, what works for Chris Rock? I wrote for Conan was the first job I had. And we kind of, you know, Robert Smigel was the head writer. And we kind of invented a kind of comedy in a way. It was like a new thing. I mean, not really, that's probably really grandiose. But, but it was really cool. And Robert and Conan were the heads of the show and they were really encouraging to try different things. And it was a wonderful job. And even the show wasn't that popular for a long time, but we're just doing these weird things.

• 1:22:56Speaker 00

  And then it started to get a rep for like, these guys are out there. Anyway, Chris hired me to write for me. We were friends from doing clubs together in the city. But he hired me and I thought when I started working for him, all right, what does a black audience want, you know? He had this black audience that was, had Grandmaster Flash would open the show. And they were just boisterous and having a good time. And Chris has his kind of attack style of comedy. So I was trying to adapt to that, you know, and write things about being black and what white people, whatever. And Chris said to me, you gotta stop that. He called it blackity-black. Don't write blackity-black, like here's black people's stuff. He goes, I hired you because what you did at Conan,

• 1:23:41Speaker 00

  which was weird, offbeat, strange stuff. And I said, is this audience gonna like that? And he goes, nobody gives them a chance to like it. Everybody thinks they know what black people like. Everybody brings black people one kind of humor because they just expect that's all they're gonna laugh at, jokes about sex and the hood or whatever the fuck race things. And no one, he's like, they're starving for like offbeat esoteric humor.

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  And that really opened my eyes and I started writing really weird stuff for him, just strange stuff and the people would go crazy for it because it was fresh for them because they haven't hadn't heard it coming from one of their own to them, you know? So, boy, to get to have his sponsorship with the audience and having him, first of all, encouraging me that way and getting to just hide in this, you know, let him take the hit for stuff that was too weird or too off, you know, too offensive or whatever. He was young and he was a really wise and great boss. And then after I was there for a few seasons and I was, all my stuff was killing. Like I was writing stuff that was just like really popular on the show.

• 1:24:51Speaker 00

  And I remember I came back for one season, I think I did three seasons there. And I came up to him while he was rehearsing and he looked at me and he said, "Why aren't you directing or starring in something? Why aren't you doing your own thing?" And I was like, "What?" Like I, I figured it wasn't in my future to be the guy. I had given up on that. I figured I'm gonna make stuff for other, I'm gonna make other guys famous. And it ain't about me. And he was like, "Why aren't you the guy?" And I was, it made me kinda sad. And he said, "Look, I'm the luckiest guy that I got you here."

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  He said, "I feel like a baseball manager of like a minor league team. And here's this great player. He hits home runs every time he's at bat, but at some point I need to say something. You don't belong here. You gotta take a shot. You gotta try to do your own thing. You gotta go bigger." I mean, what a loving thing.

• 1:25:52Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 1:25:53Speaker 00

  I mean, who does that? Chris Rock, that's like the only guy, he's really like the one guy in the world, certainly in this business, that I ever encountered who was that loving and selfless. And that's still who he is.

• 1:26:09Rick Rubin?

  Are all jokes biographical?

• 1:26:11Speaker 00

  No, I don't think so because I really love watching people and I look at them all the time. And if I see something new about people, I love to share it with their brothers, you know? There's a lot of stuff I see in.

• 1:26:30Speaker 00

  Humanity, that's got nothing to do with me. Like, that's not, I wasn't raised that way. That's not how I live. And I see it, and I do think that that, I hope that, or I try to develop that as a tool, that I can really see other people's weaknesses and lives and strengths, and depict them, or, you know, like, on film, or talk about them on stage. Yeah. Really, the best shit is other people, always, in a way. And some of it, like, I used to do stuff in my series where, and sometimes on stage, where I think about something that's really dumb about people, and I don't really have that. Like, I'm not dumb that way, but I'm gonna pretend to be for the bit, because people

• 1:27:13Speaker 00

  will accept it more if I'm saying it's me. Like, there's always a feeling of people, like, is he fucking with us? Is he insulting us? Is he trying to make us feel bad about ourselves? But if you say, "Well, I'm talking about myself," then they're like, "Well, if he's attacking himself, then what do I, what do I care?" I could just get lost in it. So, I've always found that was better.

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• 1:29:54Rick Rubin?

  When you come up with something funny, do you laugh out loud?

• 1:29:57Speaker 00

  Sometimes. It's a wonderful feeling. Not always. Sometimes you just go, "Yeah, that's a bit." But yeah, usually, I would say, yeah, most times I laugh, at least the first time I think of it.

• 1:30:08Rick Rubin?

  And do you think it's funny because you intellectually understand it's funny or because you laughed when you said it?

• 1:30:14Speaker 00

  Both. And then, once you start really working it, once it becomes a job, you're not laughing at it as much because you can't...

• 1:30:24Rick Rubin?

  You're outside of it.

• 1:30:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're outside of it. It's also not for you anymore. You're working for them.

• 1:30:30Rick Rubin?

  Do you always know why something is funny?

• 1:30:34Speaker 00

  No. When I was in India, there was a bit that wasn't killing all year. I was doing it because it was more of a building idea bit. It was more like a getting, you know, it was some, some bits get softer laughs, but you're, you're sharing something that people are really relating to or whatever it is, or it's building up to something. But this was a bit about my eyes and age, that your eyes have these bags under them that are permanent. And then there's dark circles under them. And I was saying those dark circles are the shadows of the bags. And because my eyes are, my, the bags are big enough to block light from the skin under them. And then I would say, you can actually tell what time it is when I'm outside by how tired I look.

• 1:31:20Speaker 00

  And this is a mild joke. And I did it all over the United States and it got a mild, ah, yeah, that's funny. I get that. But I did it in India and it crushed. I mean, they, it got applause every night, like big laugh. One of those big laughs that just turns into, oh my God. I don't know what it is, but boy, did they like it. And, and no one else laughed like that at it. Nobody else in the world. But Indians, so go figure. I don't fucking know. I don't always know why.

• 1:31:51Rick Rubin?

  I feel like maybe it's because they're more connected to nature. It's like a sundial joke.

• 1:31:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Rick Rubin?

  Like we're more disconnected from a sundial culture.

• 1:32:02Speaker 00

  That's a really good observation. I think that may be true. I think that modern Americans are so virtual. And they're so connected to, it's cliche to say it, but their phones and the way things are coming in on a screen. And they can, they're actually trying to shade the screen from the, the sun. We're, we're getting into something really weird with the sun and data. I read an article about how data centers and all that stuff and AI, whatever. Everybody's talking about that now, but an interesting aspect was that coming up and getting a lot of these billionaire, trillionaire

• 1:32:44Speaker 00

  guys and companies, they came up with a kind of aesthetic of being. Green, you know, and being sort of progressive minded. And they have a real problem now because they're about to suck more energy than anything ever has in the history of the world. And that's not going to look so good. So they're getting really into nuclear, which for some reason is thought of as clean now. And they're getting into solar, right? But they want to drink heavy solar. So I was reading an article about in Virginia, there's this town that they want to build data centers and, you know, the mayor doesn't give a fuck about the farmers. So he's letting them like raid these farms. And these people that have lived there for many generations.

• 1:33:28Speaker 00

  But what happened was they described that there is these acres and acres, thousands of acres of beautiful farmland. And what farmland is, is very profound. The sun is touching these green plants and they're growing and reaching up to the sun, taking nothing. There's no money involved. I mean, it's cost money to make a farm, but this is free. This is the earth and the sun is creating food through photosynthesis. It's crazy that that works. It's a fucking miracle. And these guys want to put silicone panels over covering

• 1:34:12Speaker 00

  the green to catch that sun and use it to power a machine for someone to look at a black screen in their hand in an air conditioned room. That sounds insane to me. That sounds completely insane.

• 1:34:26Rick Rubin?

  It's like stealing the sun from the food.

• 1:34:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:34:30Rick Rubin?

  That grows underneath these panels.

• 1:34:32Speaker 00

  Yes, in order to scroll more quickly.

• 1:34:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:36Speaker 00

  Or to ask chat GPT a question that you don't feel like asking your grandfather about for a little bit of more kind of gazing into a screen and getting, getting lost, avoiding a feeling or whatever it is. And I don't mean to be judgmental about that. And I, I do it too. I don't know, man, it's weird. I don't think it's all just bad, but it's certainly worth taking a second and thinking about it, you know?

• 1:35:00Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about structuring an hour or a 90 minute set. Is it just a series of jokes or is there some rhythm?

• 1:35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, it's a whole, it's a whole thing, the hour. And sometimes I. I think of it as a tyranny of the fucking hour that I've got to, I've got to make another hour. And some of the sillier jokes don't make it because you're, you get caught up in, here's this chunk and this is when I get into this subject and you get into the flow of the hour. And you know, there's a set rhythm and trajectory that I'm starting to question because I'm starting to feel like it's seaming things up a little bit, which is that you go in clubs and you work out the bits and then you start combining them into bigger, here's a set, here's how the hour feels,

• 1:35:48Speaker 00

  hour, hour, you're in a club, keep the people's attention for that hour, have that hour crescendo and turn, you know, here's the closer, all that kind of garbage. And I'm saying that just because I'm a little burnt out on it. And then you take it to theaters and when you're doing theaters, you're kind of putting a polish on it. The problem with big theaters is you start looking up at the rafters and waxing philosophical and you get a little, you lose that immediacy, you know, but they give you this kind of like, we're working on a piece, we're working on a performance piece and it's got a cohesiveness to it. Anyway, and you do it over and over and over and over and over

• 1:36:28Speaker 00

  and over and over again in many cities and try to go to places that you never worked before to try to get a new spin on it. Try to go overseas, try to do it in England a little bit, get out of your comfort zone, go to the south, go to Birmingham with it, make sure you cover Texas and Florida and everywhere and everybody gets a vote, everybody, you get a little piece of everybody's thoughts in it. And then you just also, you're just getting good, you're just getting really good at being on stage, at doing the set. And then it starts coming together and then it starts to rot, then it starts to get overdone.

• 1:37:03Rick Rubin?

  You can feel it when it starts turning?

• 1:37:05Speaker 00

  Yes, terrible feeling. Cause you start to know that you're not in the bit, you're not being present in the bits anymore. You're starting to just expect them to do what they're going to do. And you're also dealing with personal life that you don't really want to be, you want to be home and you're dealing with the stamina of the road. And sometimes where you're just too distracted by whatever you're coping with in life to give it your, your best time. And right before I shot this last special, which I shot in New York in November, I realized I was getting really in a rut. And I was trying to slow down and stop doing as many sets so that I would rest my

• 1:37:48Speaker 00

  voice and be fresher. And then I thought, let's do a contrary action and add shows in clubs. And I went down to SideSplitters, which is a club in Tampa that we all love. SideSplitters is most comedians favorite. It's just a great club. And I went down there with it. And I went to New Jersey and did The Stress Factory and all these clubs. And I just punched a bunch of shows in and just went to The Cellar, do 10 minutes. I was doing 10 minutes, 15 minutes at The Cellar of stuff that's not even in a set, just to kind of get my, wake up my brain a little.

• 1:38:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:26Speaker 00

  It's like if you see sometimes a boxer, when he's really exhausted and he goes back to the corner, they don't let him sit down. So it's like that. And I did that. And I think it was good. I'm glad I did it because when I got to New York for the special, I was awake again. And I was back into like, I know why I'm saying this. I know where I'm at.

• 1:38:45Rick Rubin?

  How different is your act from night to night?

• 1:38:49Speaker 00

  Depends on when you see me. If you see me at a club in Long Island, I've probably just, just finished writing the hour at The Cellar. And I'm, it's my first time, my first time is doing it. And I'm trying a different thing every night. If you're seeing me like a year into the tour, not much different from night to night. Although again, there's times where I like towards the end of this tour, I reversed the set. I turned it upside down. And I started doing it backwards for a while, like opening with the closer and closing with the opening.

• 1:39:25Rick Rubin?

  What did that feel like?

• 1:39:27Speaker 00

  It was hugely disruptive. And the good part of it is that it made me think, it kept me alert. You can literally fall asleep while you're killing on stage.

• 1:39:35Rick Rubin?

  You've done it so many times.

• 1:39:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're just so automatic. I think Jay Leno said once that he woke up on stage once and realized that he had been sleeping. And he's a great model to follow because he's, he's one of the best ever, I think. He was just great.

• 1:39:53Rick Rubin?

  Did you ever do talk shows?

• 1:39:55Speaker 00

  Sure, you mean like stand up on a talk show?

• 1:39:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, for a while that was like a important part of it was your five minutes. That was a totally different, you didn't just go on stage and stop after five, you had to build a five minute set. And your five minute, that's how you promoted yourself and there was a time, I missed that time. I was, I came too late. There was a time where if you went on The Tonight Show or Letterman and you killed, it made a difference, like something happened to you. People started talking about you and that just, that wasn't, by the time I was there comedy was just too flooded and it was too common for anybody to give a shit that you happen to do a really great set.

• 1:40:37Rick Rubin?

  What was the first talk show you did?

• 1:40:39Speaker 00

  The first talk show I did was Conan. I was a writer there and so it was just kind of like I put a jacket on and went downstairs, I was working there. And it was nice because it was cozy and I knew them and Conan was a really kind guy and he made me feel welcome and important, even though I was his employee and I did pretty good. I remember the, there was a guy, one of the crew guys, I actually seen him on Letterman when I was a kid because he was one of those guys, but he stayed behind, he stayed at 30 Rock when Conan took over. So I knew he was like a legendary stagehand and when I got off stage, he said, "Good shot." I always liked being connected to that old style.

• 1:41:18Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, you felt like you were in show business.

• 1:41:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, felt like I was in show business, the same way that like, I felt like, like maybe that's what a guy like him or maybe his grandfather said to Milton Berle or somebody.

• 1:41:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:30Speaker 00

  And I always loved it. I loved playing vaudeville houses and knowing who was there. There's a lot to that. But then I did Letterman and that was like a big thing to me and and then later in life it was about being the guest, like the real, not the comic, but the real guest.

• 1:41:45Rick Rubin?

  Well, you didn't do jokes, you just got interviewed.

• 1:41:47Speaker 00

  I'd sit on panel. When I started having like TV shows and stuff, I came on panel. And I was always like the third guy, you know, like the lead guest is like a movie star and they do two segments. And then usually the comedian is the third. And if you got to be a little bigger comedian, you get to go second. So you get to do a set and then talk to him for a bit. And Jay and I had a pretty good rapport, like we had some funny moments. And one week I'm going to do the Tonight Show, same as any other time. And the guy, this guy Ross, who was the booker, he said, Jay wants you to be the first guest. He wants you for two segments, first guest. I had never touched that level. That's like being like Burt Reynolds.

• 1:42:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:28Speaker 00

  I was like, really? He goes, yeah, he likes talking to you. He thinks that you guys are good together. And he was right. We had funny moments together. And he said, he doesn't want to know your jokes. Like he wants to know how to set you up, but we're prohibited from telling him where they're going. He was just giving me an idea of how much he was really, Jay was invested in my time with him on stage. And yeah, so I started doing it like that and I was hugely honored by that and inspired. But I mean, Jay was always so sweet to me my whole career and I never had a thing I could do for him. Like, it's not like he needed me. Jay has no ambition outside of his gigs. So I love him.

• 1:43:07Rick Rubin?

  Do you feel like you're in a particular lineage of comedy?

• 1:43:11Speaker 00

  No doubt.

• 1:43:12Rick Rubin?

  What's the lineage?

• 1:43:14Speaker 00

  I don't know. I've intersected with a bunch of them. And I'm also, if there's a lineage like tree branches, I've transplanted myself to different forests, you know? I was a Boston comic. That was my first identity as a comedian.

• 1:43:28Rick Rubin?

  Who's the most famous Boston comic?

• 1:43:30Speaker 00

  Well, Jay, actually. Then there's Steven Wright, who is one of the greats, one of my best friends in comedy and one of the greats.

• 1:43:37Rick Rubin?

  And totally different than everybody else.

• 1:43:39Speaker 00

  Totally different. He patented a whole thing to do. And it was just somehow, even though it was just like these one, one line jokes, it had this kind of generational pull to it. It was, it was kind of Gen X-y, you know, it was a little bit.

• 1:43:57Speaker 00

  Just abstract. I remember people in the press compared him to Jean-Paul Sartre, which is apt. The guys in Boston, when I came up, were not world famous, and they still aren't. There's still a lot of them that are still there. There's a Boston comedy is its own thing. It's a way of doing stand-up, and a lot of it is about getting drunk, and it's about Boston, and it's about the many different tribes of people there and what it means to be from there. And it was a very specific and local folk art. And I came into stand-up just as it was really

• 1:44:36Speaker 00

  peaking. And I'm so lucky that I saw those guys, because they were Steve Sweeney, Don Gavin, Kenny Rogerson, Barry Cremmons. Some of them pushed out, Kevin Meany, guys like that. But they were as good as any national act ever got. It's just that they, their scope, the culture that they were in, that they, that they observed and worked in, was very local and very specific. And so, a lot of them stayed there. But I got to see world-class comedians, just by going down the turnpike from where I grew up, to see what's going on. I was like, what?

• 1:45:14Rick Rubin?

  Is it almost like a different language?

• 1:45:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:45:17Rick Rubin?

  Is that why it's so specific to that region?

• 1:45:19Speaker 00

  Like a different language. And I actually have never since encountered comedy that was so specific, because comedy is pretty universal everywhere.

• 1:45:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:28Speaker 00

  But I've never seen such local comedy.

• 1:45:31Rick Rubin?

  What do you think it is about Boston?

• 1:45:33Speaker 00

  Boston is a beautiful place that hates everybody in a weird way. It's a bubble. I don't know what it is about. You could really ask, that's the whole of the show. Those fucking people are crazy over there. They hate you if you made it. You know, it's that kind of, there's a lot of places like that, I guess. But they're beautiful. There's nobody like them.

• 1:45:52Rick Rubin?

  Is there some resentment about New York City?

• 1:45:54Speaker 00

  Oh, sure. They fucking hate this place. You know, they hate the Yankees. And there's, yeah, of course, there's rivalry. But they get in their own fucking way all the time. There's a comedian, who I won't say his name, but- He's a Boston comedian and when I got the job at Conan writing, they needed like monologue guys to write monologue jokes. I didn't really want to do that. And Conan Robert let me go and hire some guys just to do that. And then that became its own category there. But there was a guy writing at Conan and a guy from Boston called him old warhorse. And he said, I want to write for TV. I want to write for Conan. So help me out. He said, if you watch the show, we have some reoccurring bits.

• 1:46:39Speaker 00

  Like write one page of jokes for reoccurring bits. Write half a page of ideas for reoccurring bits and then write like four jokes about the news today. He said, if you write, if you put that together, I will go to Conan's office and hand it to him and say, you should hire this guy. And the guy went, all right, thanks. Anyway.

• 1:47:02Rick Rubin?

  Wow, that's great.

• 1:47:06Speaker 00

  He's like, ah, I guess I guess you couldn't help me out, huh?

• 1:47:11Speaker 00

  So that's a lot of guys from there in a way, but also they just belonged there. Not everything is supposed to be like you're a national star.

• 1:47:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:19Speaker 00

  In fact, that usually takes away what made somebody great. And for the sake of certainly comedy audiences in Boston, they got to see this. They had their own brand. But anyway, that was my first tribe. And I never totally connected in Boston. I didn't belong there anyway, because I'm up late and Boston closes at one and I just belonged in New York. And then I came to New York City. And I became a New York club comic and there was a cohort that I was sort of part of.

• 1:47:48Rick Rubin?

  Think you could have done it somewhere else besides New York? Or you think New York was the right place for you?

• 1:47:52Speaker 00

  The thing was that New York was that you could do, on a Saturday night, you could do like 10 shows, literally. You could go, you could, I had a motorcycle. I got a motorcycle so that I could beat traffic on weekends. Weave through traffic and get quicker. So there was the Comedy Cellar in the Village Gate downtown. Three shows each. On a Saturday and then you had the comic strip on Upper East Side and Catch a Rising Star on the Upper East Side and you had the improv on 44th Street and Caroline's somewhere in mid. I don't think that was at the same time, but there was those clubs and if you could run from one to the other, you could do that many sets. You just get so good. It was our Hamburg, you know, we got really great. You're on stage constantly.

• 1:48:34Rick Rubin?

  Is that what it takes to be great?

• 1:48:36Speaker 00

  I think so. I'm sure there's a million ways to do it, but that's what worked for me was repetition and saturation, especially when you're young and that stuff doesn't really, you bounce back so quick.

• 1:48:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:47Speaker 00

  And then later in life, it becomes about having the sense when there's negative space, how to use negative space. So that happens when you get older anyway. You learn where silence is important and stuff like that.

• 1:48:59Rick Rubin?

  You ever gotten emotional on stage?

• 1:49:03Speaker 00

  Once in a while I stop time because you just, you get where you're going like, here's this show, get off stage, go to the, you know, go to the hotel, but you know, and once in a while, like on this tour, I, when I came back to this, I mean, I've learned on this tour that fatigue is a real thing for me. I gotta find the level. I don't think that, I think I'll always do stand up, but I have to find the level that I'm okay with. Anyway, so this tour, I played a lot of places that I've played a lot of times and once in a while I'd get like just a great ending to a show where it just feels like, boy, we really did this one. And they're applauding and I'm just, I always feel weird about, you know, waving when they're applauding. I don't know how to handle applause and stuff

• 1:49:47Speaker 00

  like that. I know we're in the show, the middle is great. But anyway, once in a while when they're applauding and I'm saying goodbye, I think to myself, you might not come back here. You've played this place on so many tours. You've had a lot of history here and this may be your last time here. So stay, stand there for a bit. And I quietly say, say goodbye to that room or starting to say goodbye to it a little bit in my, in my heart, you know? And then I think to myself, it doesn't really matter if you come back here or not. That's a good thing to do. To just sort of mark the moment and say like, well, this was something. This wasn't just, this wasn't just work. So yeah, when I do that, I get, I have feelings. I feel stuff on, in those moments.

• 1:50:31Rick Rubin?

  Would you say you like the equivalent of putting on emotional armor before you go on stage?

• 1:50:36Speaker 00

  A little bit because sometimes I don't want to be up there because it is work. So the shows where I don't feel like it, I'm building armor. Sometimes I'm like, how the fuck do I get it up for this one? And that's a feeling, which is just like, I don't, and I feel guilt because they came there. I was doing this tour, I don't remember where I was, maybe Greece. And I'd been on stage many nights in a row, in many countries, in many cities. It was a little much. My opening act, Greg Hahn, I was sitting next to him, we're watching Jim Norton, who's on stage. And I said to Greg, I don't know how to get interested in this show tonight. I can't find a desire to be in this show tonight. And he thought for a second and he said, there is at least one person out there

• 1:51:21Speaker 00

  who had a fucking horrible day that you can't even imagine, like a super bad day. And they're just sitting there going like, I just would love to just think about that for a minute. I'd like a little vacation in my head. I need this. I need to laugh. I want to get engaged here. And I was like, that's perfect. So that's emotional. I remember one night in Ogden, Utah. There was a couple in the audience. It was a farmer looking couple, like an old looking guy and a, wearing suspenders and thick glasses, you know? And then the lady was wearing like a housecoat, like, and I might've filled some of this in

• 1:52:07Speaker 00

  detail in my head, but they were like. Rural looking folks and Christian looking folks, not the kind of people that come to my shows often. And I was kind of looking at them like, what are they doing here? And at the time I was doing a set that kind of had these two sides to it. The first half of it was deeply sexual and perverted and just like really going there sexually. And then the other side of the show, which was the second half of the time, was about being a father and about being about the frustration of having children. So I was doing all this sexual stuff and the lady kept blushing and looking at her husband with this incredulous look of like, why are we here? And he would pat her on the knee and say, it's okay, just, you'll see, you'll see.

• 1:52:52Speaker 00

  It's okay, it's okay. And then I started doing this stuff about how horrible it is to have kids and how hard it is and how much anger and frustration you feel. And I get really, I mean, I go as, as deep and vulgar and hard on that as I do about sex. It's like this brutality of saying, fuck this shit. And this lady was gulping for air. She was laughing so hard. Just, and she was rocking back and forth her body and she had her hands on her face. I still get emotional thinking about it. And she was just laughing and sobbing. And her husband had his hand on her back. He wasn't, he'd heard the jokes.

• 1:53:37Speaker 00

  He'd seen me. He's just rubbing circles on her back and nodding like, there we go. That's what like, he had seen me somewhere. He knew what I did. I was still quite new. I had, I, it was a wonderful moment in my career where I had cracked the code on a new, previously undone and unthought of way of getting laughs on a standup stage. And people were still coming and discovering me. People that didn't know who I was were going like, what the fuck? And I was too. I was like, wow, look how this is working. I didn't think this would work. You can never really get that back. You get famous, you end up being part of the context of your own show from then on. And it just ain't the same.

• 1:54:23Speaker 00

  You know, maybe with music, you can go like, well, I don't, I, I know about this guy, but this song is new. But with stand-up, it's like, this is the guy who talks like this. And you can change what you do and you can change your subjects. I don't really talk about family life anymore. I don't do that. And there's comedians out there, I sometimes see comedians who are like, that are new parents. And they do versions of my old jokes because they're discovering these moments. And I never think of it at like, hey, that's my joke. I'm like, well, it's your turn to do that for a while. Because I, I, I kind of created a, a way of doing it. Maybe I opened the door for it, but I can't really do it anymore.

• 1:55:01Rick Rubin?

  Have you seen any comedians who reinvented themselves after success and really changed what they talked about?

• 1:55:08Speaker 00

  That's really hard to do. In fact, doing comedy into later in life is rare. Most stand-ups, either being famous flames them out on drugs or other difficulties, or they make movies and stuff. And once they start making movies, some of these guys, they find it hard to find the time or the energy to do what it really takes to be great, which is get back in the fucking ham and eggs clubs and start from scratch. And go into the Comedy Cellar next to the other guy doing the Comedy Cellar and go, what's up, man? You were the big star, but now if you're, if you want to stay good and stay relevant,

• 1:55:50Speaker 00

  I mean, relevant with what you're doing on stage, you have to do that. And some of it is not just because like they're spoiled now, but it's because it's hard. It's hard to make movies and stuff. It's hard work. And so you start going, I can't go do that anymore. So anyway, it's rare for a comedian to take the art form later in life. There's very few guys who have kept doing it that didn't either overdose on a drug or just stop doing it because other things became far more interesting and alluring. And something like Robin Williams, really great actor. So movies are lucky that he stopped being that much into stand-up.

• 1:56:30Rick Rubin?

  I'm going to name a bunch of comedians. Tell me the first thought that comes to mind for each one.

• 1:56:34Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:56:35Rick Rubin?

  Steve Martin.

• 1:56:37Speaker 00

  Silly and serious.

• 1:56:39Rick Rubin?

  George Carlin.

• 1:56:41Speaker 00

  Human and humane, wonderful.

• 1:56:44Rick Rubin?

  Chris Rock.

• 1:56:45Speaker 00

  Killer, killer and a prince.

• 1:56:49Rick Rubin?

  Rodney Dangerfield.

• 1:56:51Speaker 00

  I mean hilarious. Rodney was hilarious. I never met him, but what a guy.

• 1:56:58Rick Rubin?

  Dave Chappelle.

• 1:56:59Speaker 00

  Chappelle, a complex and beautiful person.

• 1:57:03Rick Rubin?

  Seinfeld.

• 1:57:04Speaker 00

  A master. He's a master.

• 1:57:06Rick Rubin?

  Bob Hope.

• 1:57:08Speaker 00

  Old school, great, a founder. He's a bit of a founder.

• 1:57:12Rick Rubin?

  Sam Kinison.

• 1:57:14Speaker 00

  Hilarious, kind of misunderstood and on drugs. He fucks everything up, just takes everything away. Sucks.

• 1:57:24Rick Rubin?

  Tell me something you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young.

• 1:57:29Speaker 00

  That there is a connection to everything and that consciousness and love is is not just something transferred from the inside of somebody to the inside of somebody else. That there's like a love and a unity to the world. That's gonna be here when I'm gone, that was here before I got here and that I can share in. Something else I didn't believe when I was young is that hard things are really worth going through. Not just because there's a good reward, but because hard things are wonderful experiences.

• 1:58:02Rick Rubin?

  You ever had a mystical experience?

• 1:58:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:58:06Rick Rubin?

  Tell me.

• 1:58:07Speaker 00

  It was on psychedelics. I use psychedelic drugs therapeutically. I have a therapist that we work with them. We go on periodic journeys, like four a year. And I did on, once I was on, it was a huge, it was like eight grams of mushrooms with a blindfold. And I saw stuff and went places that I think about at least once every couple of days. There, one time on stage, I did a, I did a journey, my first time doing it, I went to a therapist and who gave me a drug and I went into all kinds, I kind of detached from myself and all that kind of stuff.

• 1:58:50Speaker 00

  And I went, I was on stage two nights later. And I got next to myself and I watched the show and.

• 1:59:00Speaker 00

  I saw the guy working and I thought that guy's the master. That guy's really good at this. And I thought he protects me. He keeps me safe up here. And then I asked myself, how do you feel up here? And I said to myself, I'm suffering. And I've been suffering every time I've been on stage and I haven't let myself know it. And that was a big moment. That was actually the year that I ended with my saying, you don't have to do this anymore. My big thing this year has been like, can you be on stage without an ego? Can somebody else run the show? Cause the master was like the ego. And this year's tour, I tried not to, he came up a few times. He did a few solos. But the show was built more by like an inner curiosity.

• 1:59:45Speaker 00

  And a, of me just trying to express myself. And it was a harder year because I felt more. The shows took a bigger toll than they used to. So there was many nights on stage last year where I was like, this is getting really hard. And part of it is because I've gotten rid of a lot of things I used to do to not feel things. And so I'm feeling things, so it's harder to be on stage. I just think I need to play smaller places. I need to do less shows. It's just really that simple. Just work less and respect my weaknesses a little more.

• 2:00:40Speaker 06

  Tetrogramatin is a podcast. Tetrogramatin is a website. Tetrogramatin is a whole world of knowledge.

• 2:00:54Speaker 02

  What may fall within the sphere of Tetragrammatin?

• 2:00:59Speaker 02

  Counter-culture? Tetragrammatin. Sacred geometry? Tetragrammatin. The avant-garde? Tetragrammatin. Generative art? Tetragrammatin. The tarot? Tetragrammatin. Out-of-print music? Tetragrammatin. Biodynamics? Tetragrammatin. Graphic design? Tetragrammatin. Mythology and magic? Tetragrammatin. Obscure film? Tetragrammatin. Beach culture? Tetragrammatin. Esoteric lectures? Tetragrammatin. Off-the-grid living? Tetragrammatin. Alt spirituality? Tetragrammatin. The canon of fine objects? Tetragrammatin. Muscle cars? Tetragrammatin. Ancient wisdom for a new age.

• 2:01:42Speaker 02

  Upon entering, experience the artwork of the day. Take a breath, and see where you are drawn.