Pod Insights Tetragrammaton with Rick Rubin Joseph Nguyen About this episode Joseph Nguyen is the author of the #1 international bestselling book Don't Believe Everything You Think, translated into more than forty languages worldwide. His other titles include Beyond Thoughts: an exploration of who we are beyond our minds and workbooks such as The Overthinker's Guide to Making Decisions. Across these works, he uses philosophy, spirituality, and psychology to offer practical tools for seeing beyond conditioned thinking, deepening connection, and moving through life with greater clarity and ease.
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Transcript 10,315 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:24 Speaker 00 For the title, it actually came last.
0:26 Rick Rubin? Really?
0:27 Speaker 00 Yes. Sometimes I hear people have the title first and then write the whole entire book. But I didn't know what it was gonna be when I first started writing the book. It was more of a transmission. So the naming was at the very, very end. And that was kind of the cherry on top. And I wrote the book, I had the idea of what it would be, but no title could encapsulate what it was. And so I kind of wrote out maybe a couple of different titles. And I didn't like any of them. They were too self-helpy, too cheesy, too salesy. And I think I went on a walk or something like that, or I was showering, which is the typical story.
1:11 Speaker 00 And then it just hit me out of nowhere. Don't believe everything you think. And that was it. There was no weighing it, comparing it. It was just when you know, you know.
1:23 Rick Rubin? Yeah, when I saw the title, it motivated me to wanna see what was inside.
1:29 Speaker 00 That's beautiful. That's what motivated me too. I wonder. And I was just so curious. So it's jarring but gentle when you hear the title in that way.
1:38 Rick Rubin? It's challenging in a way, but in a good way.
1:40 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah. And I think that's what life does. It essentially meets us where we are and stretches us just a little bit. And my hope was that the book could do that for anyone that comes across it, where it challenges their current paradigm and gently invites them into a new view. That may or may not be right for them, but it's another lens they can look at the world from. And then like any, any tool, you run out of limits with it eventually, and then you can discard it and adopt a new one.
2:20 Rick Rubin? Was writing a book something that you always aspired to do?
2:24 Speaker 00 I never thought that I could, but I wanted to. It was more of a deep desire, but it was just all the way in the back of my mind. And I kind of disregarded it because I didn't have anything to write about. And it wasn't until something happened. And that kind of sparked the writing path for me. But it really came from experiencing rock bottom and from journeying through that and finding the light at the end of the tunnel and walking towards it. That's when the book came into fruition. But I never wrote before. I never journaled, never had any musings of any kind. So it was really odd
3:09 Speaker 00 that it came through the format of a book. It was the last place that I expected, which is usually how intuition works. And once I removed the pressure of trying to make it good, trying to make it for someone else, trying to prove something, once all of that was gone, then the book came through. Was writing the book therapeutic for you? Very. I was learning just as much, if not more, from writing than not writing it. And I think through that process, it transformed me. And when I start writing, I never know what's going to come through. I don't come with an agenda.
3:52 Speaker 00 I come with questions, never answers. And if the answers do come, it's not my own. So I just approach it from a lens of pure curiosity. And the way that I write, each chapter, if you look at it, it's actually a question. And it was the question I posed to myself while I was writing. I was just interested in, what is the root of suffering? Why do we think? If we let go of our monkey mind and the thinking, judgmental, labeling mind, what do we listen to? So all of those questions came up naturally. I had no idea what the answers were. But I sat there with my keyboard or pencil and...
4:35 Speaker 00 Was just open and whatever came through, came through. And there is very little or minimal editing.
4:41 Rick Rubin? Really?
4:42 Speaker 00 Yeah.
4:42 Rick Rubin? Wow.
4:43 Speaker 00 The book isn't written in the most flowery way.
4:47 Rick Rubin? It's not about the writing, it's about the ideas.
4:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, or even more specifically, it's the energy. So when I write, I do choose the words carefully, but not for the definitions themselves, but how they feel energetically. So whatever I'm experiencing, I try to find the word that matches that the best, even if it's not 100% grammatically correct or it doesn't sound the most elegant. But it transfers that emotion.
5:16 Rick Rubin? How do you think you knew to do that?
5:19 Speaker 00 I don't think I did.
5:22 Speaker 00 The whole writing process was pure intuition. So once I let go, that was just the way. The alternative was going to make me not write the book. It would stop me, it would make me overanalyze, it would make me doubt, question. And so, interestingly enough, like nature, I followed the path of least resistance and just went there. And it said, surrender, let go, trust, and follow that, that voice. Every time I read my writing now, too, and it's even weird to say my writing because it's, it's not mine, I learn something new again. I'm, oh my gosh, this is so good.
6:03 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
6:03 Speaker 00 It's not, but it's not because I'm good, it's just.
6:06 Rick Rubin? It's good, I understand, I completely understand.
6:09 Speaker 00 And I know that's how you, you approach music as well, it's just.
6:12 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
6:13 Speaker 00 Getting out of the way.
6:14 Rick Rubin? Absolutely.
6:14 Speaker 00 And letting it flow through.
6:15 Rick Rubin? Beautiful. How long ago was this process when you wrote it?
6:19 Speaker 00 Three or four years ago.
6:20 Rick Rubin? Not so long.
6:21 Speaker 00 No.
6:22 Rick Rubin? And how has the reaction to the material been?
6:27 Speaker 00 The whole spectrum. When I first released it, I didn't know it was actually gonna be a book. I didn't even know I could self-publish. But once I wrote it, I was, I found out that I could.
6:39 Rick Rubin? When you wrote it, you didn't know how it was gonna make it into the world, or if it would make it
6:44 Speaker 00 Correct.
6:45 Rick Rubin? into the world.
6:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, I assumed that I needed to get an agent to find a publisher and do all this. But once I wrote it, I said to myself, there's no way that a traditional publisher would pick this up. Because I have no degree, no credentials, no background in anything.
7:02 Rick Rubin? Not knowing how it was gonna come out. What was driving you to do the work? Because it's hard work.
7:08 Speaker 00 It was hard and it wasn't. It's really odd. I think the, the mind or the ego wanted to make it hard. But the heart knew that it was simple.
7:21 Speaker 00 So it's so odd to experience both dualities simultaneously. So the driving force behind it, I think it was just pure love and curiosity. I was done following the fear and being a victim to that in my life. The majority of how I was living, I was just always afraid of what other people would think, where the paycheck would come from, how I would make a living out of this, people judging me, what are my parents gonna think? There were a million reasons why I shouldn't have done it. But I was just so exhausted. I think it was an egoic death is what happened. Once that happened, the floodgates were open. And it takes a lot for that to happen because we're really stubborn.
8:06 Speaker 00 And resist and resist and resist until, until we can't anymore. And that's when the shell breaks.
8:14 Rick Rubin? Was it pretty much written in order?
8:17 Speaker 00 There might have been one or two chapter switches.
8:20 Rick Rubin? But for the most part, it came out
8:22 Speaker 00 Yep.
8:22 Rick Rubin? just like we received it.
8:23 Speaker 00 I know in music, it's very similar to how you'll record dozens and dozens of takes. And we don't know which one to choose, but then you go back to the original and that was it. It had the magic. And that's because we were least in the way there.
8:39 Rick Rubin? We're in free.
8:40 Speaker 00 Exactly. We were in the complete unknown and closest to source.
8:43 Rick Rubin? Yes.
8:44 Speaker 00 And I think that's what we feel energetically. And whatever's closest to source has the most resonance and the highest energy. So whatever I do, I try to, I actually really dislike editing. That's the least favorite part. It is necessary at times. For the most part, it's very minimal editing. And I'll just keep it as is and just go.
9:08 Rick Rubin? How did you know that the book was done when it was done?
9:11 Speaker 00 I think for the container that it was in, I ran out of questions. Or if I did have additional questions, they were way too specific and nuanced that it didn't serve the book anymore. So I I approached it as if the book was its own entity. And I kind of imagine if it's like feeding a child. Like, how do you know when a baby's full? It tells you.
9:37 Rick Rubin? Stops eating.
9:38 Speaker 00 It stops eating. So it felt satiated in a sense and and whole and complete. But if it wasn't, I would keep going.
9:46 Rick Rubin? So approximately, how long did it take to write the book?
9:49 Speaker 00 I believe a month and a half to two months. It was very quick. It was pretty much every day for about one to two hours.
10:01 Rick Rubin? And then the book is done. And now you decide I want to share it with the world. What happens?
10:08 Speaker 00 I did have a business background, which was very helpful. And that seemed like the antithesis of what I write about.
10:17 Speaker 00 But that's the contrast that was needed to launch it. So I ran an ad firm prior. And so I learned all of these different marketing strategies to be able to apply to the book. So I learned advertising, I learned copywriting, I learned direct response marketing.
10:36 Speaker 00 That all got applied to the book. Every time I tried to apply it to my own things, every single thing failed. It was probably a 10 to 12 different failed businesses. But it wasn't until the book came out that it was the right vehicle. So I didn't think any publisher would pick it up. And I know that they wouldn't just because it was such an odd book. It was less than 100 pages. No audience, nothing, no socials. But that's, once the book was done, I just thought to myself, where are the people that would want to read the book? They're online on socials. So I started to learn how to make content. And TikTok was just starting to boom.
11:19 Speaker 00 I didn't want to do dances with my book to get an audience. But then my brother sent me a video of another author and it just went viral. And what that other author was doing was simply reading his book aloud with a pen and just reading it. And I thought to myself, that's it? That's what content can be. So I did the same thing. I just put a camera up, just my phone, no high production, nothing. And just started reading the book. And I would post three times a day.
11:52 Rick Rubin? How long would each clip be?
11:54 Speaker 00 Probably 30 seconds to a minute. I didn't make anything crazy. I just read it verbatim and I would show the cover. And after about a month or two, the book started to take off.
12:06 Rick Rubin? How was the book available at that time?
12:08 Speaker 00 Amazon, that was the only way.
12:10 Rick Rubin? Was Amazon the publisher?
12:12 Speaker 00 Technically, I was self-published, but then Amazon printed the books and it was all on demand.
12:17 Rick Rubin? I see.
12:17 Speaker 00 So whoever ordered, they would ship it. I didn't have to deal with inventory. I didn't have to deal with overhead, anything. And so they would just send me whatever royalties it was three months later, and that was it. And without that, the book wouldn't exist. So as much as. A lot of us don't like big corporate and things like that. It has really helped my own career and millions of other books that are now able to be self-published because of technology and...
12:47 Rick Rubin? Have you met anyone else who published that way?
12:49 Speaker 00 There's a lot, yes.
12:50 Rick Rubin? Really?
12:51 Speaker 00 Lots of fantasy and fiction authors that are now big did start self-publishing first. Now I do have a publisher, but to start, I didn't need one and I could have gone on my own as well and still stayed, but I wanted to share the book with more people and bookstores and things like that, and so we have a nice deal there.
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15:29 Rick Rubin? From releasing the book as a self-published book on Amazon, draw me the timeline of what happens next.
15:38 Speaker 00 So, release was March 2022. By the second or third month, it was selling 10,000 copies a month.
15:47 Rick Rubin? Wow.
15:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm so fortunate because most books never sell more than 250 copies in their lifetime. And it's crazy because all my life I was into going into business to try to make money and make ends meet. The last thing I should have done was gone into publishing because that's where you make the least amount of money.
16:06 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
16:06 Speaker 00 Yet, that's where all the abundance comes from now. So, it's, again, that's intuition. It's so counterintuitive. But there's no way I could have known unless I just made the leap. So, selling 10,000 copies, then by month six or seven, it was probably 20, 30,000 copies.
16:22 Rick Rubin? Wow.
16:23 Speaker 00 A month.
16:24 Rick Rubin? And that was all happening just from your posts and the...
16:29 Speaker 00 Influencers. There's so many different niches now. There, people post about anything and everything. So, there's an audience for anything. So, all I had to do was just find the people that had those audiences and talk to them because they wanted to read interesting books anyway. And they probably wouldn't... They're only reading the greats. So, this was a chance for them to go to the opposite end of the spectrum and read something that they probably would never have read. So, those two, I did do advertising. So, Amazon advertising, I learned how to do that myself.
16:58 Rick Rubin? Tell me about that. How does that work?
17:00 Speaker 00 So, it's keyword-based. And it works similarly to how Google search works. And then at the top, there's those two ad, two or three ads. And you can click on them and it's pay per click. But on Amazon, if you type in self-help book, you'll notice the first one to two listings say sponsored.
17:21 Speaker 00 So you can bid for those keywords and then show up for it. And then you only pay when someone actually clicks on it. But if they see it and don't click, you don't pay. On Meta or Facebook, Instagram, you pay if they see it. So Amazon's very interesting in that way and it works very effectively because of the paper click model. So with that, I just started targeting keywords that my book.
17:46 Rick Rubin? What were some of the keywords you used?
17:48 Speaker 00 Anxiety book.
17:50 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
17:50 Speaker 00 Overthinking, how to stop overthinking, how to let go of anxiety, healing, a self-help book, therapy, or even spiritual book. The top ones are overthinking, stress, anxiety. And.
18:04 Rick Rubin? You saw which are the ones that people reacted to.
18:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, I used intuition first.
18:10 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
18:11 Speaker 00 Because I just thought if I was going through anxiety, which I was, what would I type into Amazon or Google?
18:18 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
18:18 Speaker 00 To fix my issue and I was like, book on anxiety or anxiety book, overthinking book. So I just used those exact ones and then they just ranked and those did well. But the, actually, the best ads in there were not the keywords. They were ads that if you click on the listing and you scroll down a little bit, there's a whole nother section of other books that they recommend.
18:42 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
18:42 Speaker 00 And it says sponsored and so they'll show you books there. Me advertising on other people's books.
18:48 Rick Rubin? And you would pick the books to associate with?
18:50 Speaker 00 And so I would do things like.
18:53 Rick Rubin? Power of Now.
18:53 Speaker 00 Yeah, Power of Now, Atomic Habits. Now people buy my book and Atomic Habits all the time because they're so closely related. So anything about personal development, about discipline, about therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy. And all these like huge books, I would ride their wave too. And.
19:13 Rick Rubin? It was same audience, it was.
19:14 Speaker 00 Exactly.
19:15 Rick Rubin? You were going directly to your readers.
19:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
19:17 Rick Rubin? They weren't your readers yet, but you knew.
19:19 Speaker 00 Exactly.
19:20 Rick Rubin? If you like this, you'll probably like this.
19:21 Speaker 00 Yes, and I knew that I was reaching a reader because I was the reader. That was me.
19:26 Rick Rubin? Yeah, yeah. And you wrote the book for yourself.
19:28 Speaker 00 Exactly. So that was the whole advertising process there and that did super well and still continues to do well. And that's now the foundation for everything. I kept doing the same thing and it kept working and I just expanded and then TikTok came into play or TikTok shop specifically. And then it just exploded. I don't know what that is. So it it's similar to Amazon. You can buy stuff on the platform now. Really? Yeah, it's crazy. So I can post about my book, but now I can add a link and they can click on it and buy on TikTok. So when I posted those. And is it like Amazon one click shopping? Yes, it's crazy. And so as I made my videos, in the beginning, there was no TikTok shop.
20:13 Speaker 00 But once TikTok shop came into play, now I could link and put the link on my video and people click on it. And then basically one click and buy. So that. And is TikTok the retailer? Yes, I can list my book on their platform. And if they buy, I have a warehouse that ships the book to them. I see. Or there's also TikTok's warehouse that you can ship it to, but. Do you use like Shopify for that? Yes, exactly. Yep. And then I have a third party warehouse and then they just handle all the logistics of it and. And those are still Amazon printed books? No, I actually learned how to go directly to other printers to get the cost way down. Cause Amazon. First book is still a self published book? Yes. Great.
20:54 Speaker 00 Well, technically now it is under a publisher, but that was recent about a year ago. And why did you decide to do that and how did that work? So I never thought I would go with a publisher. And I said to myself, the only way I would was if they allowed me to keep doing what I was doing on my own, selling on all my platforms, so Amazon, TikTok, Shopify. If I can keep doing what I'm doing and retain all of the control over that and the royalties and IP copyrights. And if they basically made me a distribution deal only for the retail section, then I would accept. Would they manufacture books for you now? So they manufacture all the books? No. So it's
21:37 Rick Rubin? So there's two different versions of the books.
21:39 Speaker 00 Yes.
21:39 Rick Rubin? There's the self-published and the pro-published.
21:42 Speaker 00 Yes, exactly.
21:43 Rick Rubin? Cool. Do they look different?
21:44 Speaker 00 They do, because the pro version is a hardcover and it's linen. And it says expanded edition on it, and it's beautiful.
21:50 Rick Rubin? I've seen it in a bookstore.
21:51 Speaker 00 Oh, amazing.
21:52 Rick Rubin? Beautiful.
21:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, actually, many thanks to to your book. I got a lot of inspiration from it, and the linen cover
21:58 Rick Rubin? Oh, nice.
21:59 Speaker 00 was where that came about. I wanted something different.
22:03 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
22:04 Speaker 00 And, yeah, yours did it, like the stamped foil, and it was so beautiful. I was like, oh, that's perfect. So it was definitely an ode to you.
22:12 Rick Rubin? Thank you.
22:12 Speaker 00 And so now our books are like there.
22:15 Rick Rubin? Beautiful.
22:15 Speaker 00 In bookstores, which is so amazing. So, yeah, so I still print all my books. And on my platforms that I have, I distribute there. But then on, for retail, they do all the distribution and printing and all that.
22:27 Rick Rubin? So before you got a pro publisher, your books were not available in bookstores?
22:35 Speaker 00 Yes. Well, some, but very rare.
22:38 Rick Rubin? Yeah. How would it happen that a book would be in a bookstore, in the original version?
22:42 Speaker 00 Yeah. So there is a platform called IngramSpark. And I upload my book. It's kind of like an Amazon. But what they do is they help list my book or make it available for bookstores to be able to buy. So they'll handle all the printing and shipping and all that. And then it goes to all the bookstores that order. And that's how they would house a lot of the books. And then they would just send me the royalties whenever someone purchases those. So that's how it was working. It was working really well as well. Yeah, like just random bookstores would pick it up, indie bookstores.
23:13 Rick Rubin? Great.
23:14 Speaker 00 People who have like spiritual bookshops too. It's amazing. Like, I walked into a float tank place, and they had my book there.
23:23 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
23:23 Speaker 00 It is just incredible to see, and I think I just bought it off the same platform. So that happened, but it wasn't in like Barnes and Noble, Target, Walmart, the Books-A-Million, the big, big, big players. I knew that if I could get in there, it would do really well, just simply because it's done so on other platforms. So that was why I decided to go with a publisher.
23:44 Rick Rubin? And it seems like that wouldn't interfere with your existing business, because it's really probably a different customer going to those places.
23:52 Speaker 00 That's correct. Yes. If they buy books in those bookstores, they probably wouldn't buy it on Amazon. If they do, it's Sell them that it'll cross.
24:00 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
24:00 Speaker 00 So it only did expand the pie. And again, it's the primary reason for this isn't the money. It's it's.
24:07 Rick Rubin? It's spreading the word.
24:08 Speaker 00 Spreading, yeah.
24:08 Rick Rubin? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
24:09 Speaker 00 And it's going where it wants to go.
24:11 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
24:11 Speaker 00 And it wanted to go into bookstores.
24:13 Rick Rubin? That's great. And now will the new book happen the same way?
24:16 Speaker 00 Yes.
24:17 Rick Rubin? Great.
24:17 Speaker 00 So it is going to be in retail and all that. This one, I'm not handling any of the printing. So then they do retain all of that. And so I'm experimenting to see how it goes.
24:27 Rick Rubin? But you'll still be a seller of the book.
24:30 Speaker 00 Yes, I can. Yep.
24:32 Rick Rubin? Both TikTok.
24:33 Speaker 00 Yes.
24:34 Rick Rubin? And.
24:34 Speaker 00 That was key.
24:35 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
24:36 Speaker 00 And that's what I wanted because.
24:37 Rick Rubin? And Amazon as well.
24:38 Speaker 00 Yeah, exactly. Or Amazon, they get to retain that and then we split from there. But anything on my the other platforms like Shopify or TikTok and stuff like that, that would be me.
24:47 Rick Rubin? I love it. It's a futuristic model and I love the do it yourself world.
24:51 Speaker 00 It's so great and it's liberating. And it's because I'm going to be a first mover on whatever platform it is. And I know the publishers won't. It'll take a while. Publishers are now just starting to get on TikTok shop years after it's there. And a lot of them still aren't on it. And publishers, their strength is no longer. I actually think, don't think it was ever in marketing. It was in distribution, but distribution is different than marketing. Distribution is just getting into bookstores, but distribution online requires marketing. Just because we listen online doesn't mean people are going to see it. But if you do distribute it in the bookstores, people will automatically see it. It's very different.
25:31 Speaker 00 So I wanted to make sure that I could always retain some sort of autonomy with marketing the book on different platforms.
25:38 Rick Rubin? And that's also in everyone's best interest because that's what breaks the book.
25:42 Speaker 00 It is, exactly.
25:43 Rick Rubin? And creates demand.
25:45 Speaker 00 Yes, so I will invest because I am able to retain that control and autonomy. I can invest so much more money into it because I know that I'm going to get the return. And then, of course, that's going to bring people to Amazon and bookstores and all that. So it's it's it's a rising tide that lifts all ships. Most publishers aren't really willing to do that. And it's mostly because they're a little bit antiquated in the model, but also because most authors do not have that multifaceted skill set. They usually just want to write and that's it.
26:13 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
26:14 Speaker 00 But I have this weird knack that I like doing the business.
26:18 Rick Rubin? And you published independently and.
26:22 Rick Rubin? Had the success on your own without a publisher. So you you proved your value as a publisher as well.
26:30 Speaker 00 Yes. So now it's dual publishing.
26:32 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
26:32 Speaker 00 And now they're
26:34 Rick Rubin? Good for everybody.
26:35 Speaker 00 Doing amazing. And I love the publisher. I'm with Authors Equity. And they're super collaborative. And I was only going to work with a publisher if they allowed me to essentially have creative control.
26:45 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
26:45 Speaker 00 Because I didn't know this until I got into the industry. Authors do not have final say. I didn't know that, like, authors don't have control of their cover. And a lot of authors don't like their covers. It's
26:56 Rick Rubin? Integrated.
26:57 Speaker 00 Yeah.
26:58 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
26:58 Speaker 00 The publisher says, this is the cover. This is the designer. This is the editor. We have final say in the editing in the book, too, which was crazy to me. So I said, the only way I would work with someone is if they allowed me to have final say. In the contract, I'm pretty sure it says they have final say, but their word is, I do. And based on how I've worked with them, they let me have final say.
27:21 Rick Rubin? Yes. Tell me also about the rest of the world. How many different languages is the first book in?
27:26 Speaker 00 It's in over forty now.
27:29 Rick Rubin? Amazing.
27:30 Speaker 00 It's
27:30 Rick Rubin? And how did that happen?
27:32 Speaker 00 Well, I actually reached out to the agent and said, hey, can you help me get my book into other? No agent reached out to me, even though the book was doing super well. It was constantly ranking the top couple hundred. Nobody reached out. Really weird, because I thought I'd be flooded with it. And it's like, it's not. And so I had to just go out of my way.
27:48 Rick Rubin? Wow.
27:49 Speaker 00 Find an agent and said, hey, the book seems to be doing pretty well. Do you want? Do you want to hop on this train?
27:56 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
27:57 Speaker 00 And they're like, oh, my gosh, this is awesome.
27:59 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
27:59 Speaker 00 And so they made deals and they go to like the Frankfurt Book Fair. And they made tons of international deals. And it was absolutely amazing. And for there, I do have to relinquish almost all creative control. So the cover, the editing, all that. And I can't understand the translation, so I don't know. But that's how they work as well. And I trust them for the most part because they know their market and what would probably work. And they changed the title and everything. I don't like most of the covers that that come out. But based on their market, they say this is what's going to work. And it's worked pretty well. The best market so far is actually India.
28:33 Rick Rubin? Interesting.
28:34 Speaker 00 Yeah. Why do you think that is? Likely because they're deeply spiritual. And so so many of them resonate with it. And a lot of them speak English there. It's almost as much as as their native language. And the English version is doing incredibly well over there. Great. Instead of just the the native languages that are there, which there's over like ten or eleven or something like that in different dialects. So it's so many. So cool. But it's spread all across the world. Totally unexpected. You could never imagine it. No, I couldn't. And it was always a distant dream of, oh, it'd be so cool if I could have a translation. But then I let it go and all of a sudden it happened. But if I think, I think if I really tried to get it and forced it, it probably wouldn't have worked well.
29:19 Speaker 00 So cool that in this antiquated industry, you carved your own path without really knowing in advance how to do that. No, I had no idea. No experience. Yes, and even nowadays, even after I've done this, most people still don't do it. Yeah, I've never heard of half of what you talked about. Yeah, I thought it was a normal thing until I started talking with other authors. And they're like, oh, my gosh, like, what do you even do? How are you even doing that? Like, what is you print your own books? How's it even possible? Like, how you have a warehouse? And it's just like, it's so foreign. And to me, I'm just like, it just seemed like the next logical step to do. But I think going into it without any preconceived notions was the greatest strength that I could have.
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31:43 Rick Rubin? How quickly did the 30-second readings grow?
31:49 Speaker 00 It was in a few months, but I really had
31:53 Rick Rubin? Could you read the comments?
31:54 Speaker 00 I did.
31:54 Rick Rubin? What would people say?
31:56 Speaker 00 Luckily, they were all really mostly positive. So people would say that this seems like it would be something that would help them or they've thought about this before, but they couldn't articulate it. They had breakthroughs just from listening to those few lines or they haven't heard it in this way prior. Or they relate it to their own experience and they're saying this might be a eastern philosophy type of concept or it ties into Christianity. There's so many people now write to me from every religion possible. Even people that are psychologists use this, counselors, and Buddhism, Zen, Taoism,
32:39 Speaker 00 just name it, and they've read it and they've resonated with it. And so it, I don't want to say it's transcended religion, but it's not limited by. One particular religion. And I think it just resonates with people.
32:54 Rick Rubin? Had you studied all of those before writing?
32:58 Speaker 00 I haven't studied all of them. And the studying that I would do is just probably light research around it. I was born and raised Catholic, so I had deep experience within that realm of Christianity. It's very interesting because I had to let go of a lot of those structures to be able to see beyond it. And then I did look a lot into, well, Western philosophy, more so like Plato, Socrates, and then even Nietzsche and things like that. And then Eastern philosophers, so more so. Alan Watts is more Western, but he gets a lot from Eastern. He was a brilliant, I would say, harmonizer of the two worlds. And that's what I attempt to do.
33:43 Speaker 00 Buddhism is a massive influence on it as well, Zen, Taoism.
33:47 Rick Rubin? And you weren't researching those for the book. You were researching those for your life.
33:51 Speaker 00 That's correct. For the book, I actually didn't research any of it. So I have this process that I will ingest information. There's seasons. So there is a season for just intentional consumption of whatever I'm interested in, not passive, and it just is bombarding me. That usually doesn't do well or go anywhere. And then I become a victim to the whole economic machine. But through intentional consumption, probably very similar to how you listen to music, that's what I do. And then when I start writing, I go on what I call an information diet. So I eliminate everything and just write. I don't look at all these other references, books, and all these studies.
34:34 Speaker 00 Because when I do, if I'm reading something and I'm writing, I write like what I'm reading. So I go through that pause period. Most of the time, I am actually in that information diet. It's probably five to 10% of my life that I do some sort of consumption.
34:52 Rick Rubin? Other than posting 30-second clips, did you do anything else?
34:57 Speaker 00 I did reach out to a myriad of different book influencers that reviewed nonfiction books. So it was just people that loved reading nonfiction and would just share it. They would highlight the book and write their own notes on it. And I just saw, that seems like a great way to share the book. And so I sent them the book. I would pay them whatever that they asked for. And I didn't know if it was gonna work. I just assumed it would because I see that their accounts are doing really well. It's the same principle of where are the eyeballs?
35:29 Rick Rubin? So you paid them to read the book?
35:31 Speaker 00 Yes.
35:32 Rick Rubin? I didn't know that. I didn't know that that ecosystem exists.
35:35 Speaker 00 Yes, so that's what happens. And what's nice is if the book isn't good, it won't go anywhere.
35:41 Rick Rubin? Of course.
35:42 Speaker 00 So it's just distribution. And then if it does resonate, then it will take off. And so that's the beauty of it. But that's why I always like to be able to post on my own as well and not have to rely on someone completely for the distribution of the book.
35:57 Rick Rubin? If you pay somebody to read the book, would they always say they loved it?
36:01 Speaker 00 No, they would not. So that's the thing. So I never said you had to review it in a good way. And that was actually a lot of great ones. They would say, I'm gonna review it how I'm gonna review it.
36:11 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
36:13 Speaker 00 Most of them did have great reviews of it. Some did not and outlined why they didn't like it. And that was totally okay too.
36:20 Rick Rubin? Not everything is for everybody.
36:22 Speaker 00 Exactly.
36:23 Rick Rubin? How has writing the book changed you?
36:28 Speaker 00 It's probably changed me in every way imaginable. It's allowed me to become much more reflective. It's encouraged me to slow down. It's expanded my capacity for different beliefs. My patience has grown as well. I've also been encouraged to let go of so many different things. In order for the book to be born, that's what had to have happened. The death of the previous self.
37:02 Rick Rubin? Did the change happen when you started to write? When you finished writing? Or when a lot of people read it, liked it?
37:12 Speaker 00 It did nothing after a lot of people read it and liked it. After the book was done, I wouldn't say that I didn't change anymore, but the book itself, it didn't, it didn't lead to additional transformation. I had to go beyond the book in order for that to keep going. One of my great friends, he says, the structures that build us become our shackles. And then we have to let go of those structures and therefore the shackles. So I had to let go of a lot of the, of the book and the attachment to it to grow and beyond it and to explore new territory.
37:46 Rick Rubin? And you started a new book?
37:47 Speaker 00 Yes.
37:48 Rick Rubin? Good experience?
37:50 Speaker 00 Very challenging experience.
37:52 Rick Rubin? How was it different than the first experience?
37:54 Speaker 00 This one was under a publisher.
37:55 Rick Rubin? Right.
37:56 Speaker 00 So it's different.
37:56 Rick Rubin? There was expectation.
37:57 Speaker 00 Yep. And as much as I worked to let go of those, they're always there. And so I, I love the self-publishing aspect because there's really no, there's no expectation. So the peer existence of something like that, like a publisher or an external entity, it alters the art. It could be good, it could be bad. It just depends on the person and how they relate to it. For me, I think it was good in a sense that it forced me to grow in a different way than I hadn't before. So it was a very tight deadline. I think I had about a month and a half, which yes, I wrote the first one in a month and a half, but it took me a lifetime to get to that point where I could do it.
38:42 Speaker 00 And now I only had two to three years to live before I could write this one.
38:47 Rick Rubin? Uh huh.
38:48 Speaker 00 And this one, you could say it's, technically say it's more advanced, but it's essentially after, once you've learned how to regulate your emotions, find more peace in your life and don't believe every single thought that comes to your mind. What do you do now? What do you listen to? How do you know if it's intuition or anxiety? These are the questions that I answer in the book or attempt to. Because that's what I wanted to know for myself. I don't know what I don't, I didn't know the answers. And so the book is an exploration of what that could be. And hopefully it's helpful. But because of that tight deadline and then the external pressure, it was much more difficult.
39:29 Speaker 00 And then I had to create ways that that revealed the path of least resistance. So what's interesting is for this book, I wrote more from my voice than physical writing or typing.
39:42 Rick Rubin? So you spoke it?
39:43 Speaker 00 Yes, I spoke the book. That was actually the only way I would be able to hit the deadline. Otherwise, I would have written probably half or less. But in doing so, I realized that there was a faster transcription process. I do sacrifice a little bit of precision, but I think the emotion is still there. So now I just unlocked a new way to write.
40:07 Rick Rubin? Did you start the same way by having a series of questions?
40:11 Speaker 00 Correct.
40:12 Rick Rubin? Each chapter is a question and you spend time answering that question?
40:15 Speaker 00 That's correct.
40:16 Rick Rubin? For yourself?
40:17 Speaker 00 Yes, exactly. And the core question from the book was, what do we listen to if we no longer listen to our mind? At least the judgmental, thinking, opinionated, egoic part of our mind.
40:31 Speaker 00 And to me, that was intuition or the heart, the soul, you can say God. Whatever word works for you that's beyond the self. And then the secondary question to that is, if we know that that's what we're meant to listen to, because most people have heard all the time, listen to your heart. But why don't we then if we know that that contains the answer? That's the second part of the book. And the root reason for me of not following that, which I knew in the back of my mind always, was one answer. But I thought it was other people's judgments, it was circumstances. Oh, I can list a million things, but it all came down to one root reason, which was fear.
41:15 Speaker 00 Other people, the opinions, expectations, all these things are external. But as soon as I was able to let go of fear or allow it to be in my body and not have to listen to it, or for it to command me.
41:28 Speaker 00 Then I was able to follow intuition. So most of the bad or negative habits, destructive habits that we have is a reaction to fear. And so that relationship we have with fear completely determines our life. And so that was really fascinating to explore.
41:49 Rick Rubin? Are you happy with the results even with depressed timeframe?
41:55 Speaker 00 I think overall I am.
41:56 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
41:57 Speaker 00 I believe that if I had more time, I would be able to let go of those expectations and pressure and be able to, I would probably be able to write a little bit more and make it more comprehensive. But for the constraints that were there, I'm very happy with how it turned out.
42:14 Rick Rubin? And you don't necessarily know that if you did do that, that it would be better.
42:18 Speaker 00 I don't.
42:19 Rick Rubin? You would never know.
42:20 Speaker 00 Exactly. And so all I can do is be at peace with it.
42:23 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
42:24 Speaker 00 And if it helps, awesome. And if it doesn't, that's okay, too.
42:28 Rick Rubin? Have you ever done any type of therapy?
42:31 Speaker 00 I have.
42:31 Rick Rubin? Tell me about that.
42:32 Speaker 00 Many different modalities. So I've done traditional therapy, hypnotherapy. There's other forms of healing like Eastern that are similar, like acupuncture, acupressure. I learned and read a lot of Dr. Joe Dispenza. I went to his seven day meditation retreat in Cancun a few years back.
42:53 Rick Rubin? How was it?
42:54 Speaker 00 Incredible. It was essentially seven days of meditating for at least three to four hours. I've never done that intensive meditation. Usually it's maybe fifteen, thirty minutes. And it was really amazing to see other people. Just being in a room with other people also doing that type of work was very powerful.
43:16 Rick Rubin? When did you first learn to meditate?
43:19 Speaker 00 It was after I read Eckhart Tolle's Power of Now. That was the first spiritual book that I ever read.
43:26 Rick Rubin? Beautiful book.
43:27 Speaker 00 Amazing. When I read it, I did not understand it. But something deeper in me said, this is the path? But the ego is like, what do you do in life? Once you let go of all this, it just, why wouldn't I just go in the middle of the mountains in a dark cave and just become a monk and just meditate all day? But it took years after that to truly understand what it meant and to embody it and to live it. So I probably, I started meditating likely, it's gotta be probably about five to six years ago. So it's very, very recent. And it's not as intense as a lot of people might assume.
44:12 Speaker 00 I'm not doing it to a very, very high degree. I do it for what works for me. Well, I struggled a lot with meditation because while I was meditating for about the fifteen, thirty minutes, pure bliss. I think most people can find a little bit more peace if they do that. What was very challenging for me was as soon as I opened my eyes, an hour later, I'm right back to baseline anxiety of worrying about, what do I have to do next? What's on my to-do list? Life hits you. And then for me, it was very difficult to find that same level of peace that I had during the meditation. And it wasn't until that I started asking myself,
44:54 Speaker 00 what is happening during the meditation? That allowed me to be at peace? And can I apply that same mechanic with my eyes open? So, once I started to do that, I realized that if I just observe my thoughts and don't have to believe all of them or to entertain them or to argue with them or to resist them, and I can just let them pass and I can follow my intuition, that's not only how I can meditate well, but to remain in a meditative state throughout the day. And that to me was more important than my actual meditation.
45:32 Rick Rubin? How do you know now, when something comes up in you, whether it's intuition or a thought?
45:41 Speaker 00 So if it's just a thought, it could be a neutral observation, such as, that's a tree. That's a thought. For intuition, it's very distinct. And the best way I've figured out for myself of how I know that it's intuition is a couple of characteristics. So one is, it actually makes the acronym SAGE. So the first one is S, which is serenity. Does this feel like peace? Or some underlying aspect of that? The next one is aligned. Does it feel aligned with me, my being? G is growth, which is,
46:26 Speaker 00 is it facilitating some sort of growth within me? And then E, which is emotion. Is it rooted in fear? Or is it rooted in love? And if it is at the intersection of those four things, I can simplify it to three, which is peace, alignment, and growth. If it checks those boxes, it's likely intuition. So intuition is very rarely going to bring you back to what you've experienced before.
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48:32 Rick Rubin? Tell me about your relationship with your parents.
48:35 Speaker 00 My relationship with our parents is quite odd. I love them to death. And there are so many, a range of emotions with them. Growing up deeply Catholic, they spend almost all their free time at church. Volunteering, teaching, my dad was servicing youth group for a decade plus. He was the only one that would do it. No one else could do it. I asked him one day, I was like, you've been doing youth group for so long, everyone loves you there and like, it seems like you're thriving there. I'm like, how do you like it? He's like, I don't like it that much.
49:08 Speaker 00 He's like, I'm just doing it because no one else will do it. So my dad is an interesting figure in that way. His ultimate virtue is sacrifice. Even if he doesn't like doing the thing. And that almost goes antithesis to how I operate or we would operate, which is we gotta like the thing that we're doing. We're not gonna do it just because it may help someone else at the cost of our own peace and happiness. But my dad-
49:33 Rick Rubin? It's not sustainable.
49:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's not. And I see that he's stressed a lot, right? And bless his heart, but I just can't live like that. And I admire him for doing that. And so, one of the highest forms of love in this type of complex relationship is to allow other people to suffer, which sounds very-
49:55 Speaker 00 It doesn't sound good.
49:56 Rick Rubin? No, but it's their choice.
49:57 Speaker 00 It is, and I want to honor that.
49:59 Rick Rubin? Of course.
50:00 Speaker 00 Rather than try to take it away or get rid of it.
50:03 Rick Rubin? Or that you know better than him.
50:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
50:05 Rick Rubin? How to live his life.
50:06 Speaker 00 I don't know.
50:07 Rick Rubin? It's insane.
50:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, so I had a very difficult relationship with them when I was trying to do that, saying, "You don't have to suffer. Why are you doing this to yourself?" But that just created a chasm between us where we could never see eye to eye or connect. But as soon as I let that go of needing to change them or trying to help them, oddly enough, the closer we got.
50:33 Speaker 00 And my mom and dad still want me to go back to the Catholic Church and practice that as the sole religion. And I asked my dad one day, because he does this interesting thing where he'll just say, one of the first things, if I see him, after not seeing him for a few weeks, he'll be like, "I got about 15 years left." I'm like, "That's great, Dad. What a way to open a conversation."
50:58 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
50:58 Speaker 00 But he's like, "I'm trying to make the most of every day." I'm like, "That's great, but what you speak may come true, so, you know, be careful about that."
51:06 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
51:07 Speaker 00 So I asked my dad one day, as I was just trying to connect more with him, I was like, "Dad, if you're saying you're gonna leave soon, what's like the last thing you would want me to do? Like, what is that thing that I could do for you that you'd be like, "Yeah, my life is like complete. It is done. I can go." And he said, "I just want my son to come back to the church."
51:31 Rick Rubin? It's beautiful. It's beautiful that he's got such strong faith.
51:36 Speaker 00 Yes, and he wants to share that with me. And so, all the emotions came up.
51:42 Rick Rubin? Yeah.
51:43 Speaker 00 From that, which I was like, "Oh, my gosh, he is saying that that's his last dying wish, and if I don't fulfill it..." I mean, he'll definitely be sad, right? But not like his whole life is ruined.
51:56 Rick Rubin? No.
51:57 Speaker 00 But he is saying that it would be... Absolutely wonderful and it would make his life feel more complete if that were the case. So there is of course a little sense of guilt there coming up where I do want to do that for him, but I won't sacrifice what my beliefs are for his beliefs. But I think him and I, just hearing him say that was a bonding moment in and of itself, even if I could not fulfill it.
52:25 Rick Rubin? For sure.
52:27 Speaker 00 So I think that's where my parents and I are now, which is we're closer than ever. Even closer than when I was part of the church. But even though we're not practicing the exact same religion or same spiritual kind of philosophies, we can still honor what we're doing individually.
52:48 Rick Rubin? During the time that you were trying different things, different therapies, when you were a seeker, what things did you come across that you found most helpful?
52:58 Speaker 00 The way that you phrase the question is very interesting because you said when you were a seeker.
53:03 Rick Rubin? Yeah. You continue to be?
53:06 Speaker 00 Well, I don't know if I would identify as a seeker.
53:09 Rick Rubin? Okay.
53:10 Speaker 00 I guess you could label it as that. I think when I was looking for the answer most intensively, the answers eluded me more. That made it more frustrating because I was doing all the things. I was meditating every day. I was reading books. I was going to the retreats. I even went vegan for a while. I was doing acupuncture and learning different modalities and I was doing so much and it felt like I wasn't making progress. And I felt stuck. And it was weird because as soon as I stopped seeking, the answer came. I think it was because I was open.
53:49 Rick Rubin? It also sounds like the reason you would stop seeking would be that on some level, you must have given up.
53:58 Speaker 00 Yes, I did. Yes, I did, because all the modalities.
54:01 Rick Rubin? And nothing worked.
54:01 Speaker 00 Yes.
54:03 Rick Rubin? So then, in giving up, it created the space to allow the thing to happen.
54:08 Speaker 00 That's exactly it. Without space, nothing new can come in. And I was so busy trying to fill that internal void up with all these things, even if they were good things. There was just no space for insight, no space for healing. Even though I was doing all the healing practices, it didn't allow it to work. It's really hard to force the body to heal. But we get in the way a lot of the time. If we keep poking at the bruise, it'll just stay there. But if we stop poking it, or a cut or anything like that, it heals on its own. Yeah. So now, I don't know if I would identify as a seeker. I think I would identify more as a surrenderer. I gave up seeking too, which is counterintuitive.
54:54 Speaker 00 And that paradoxically allows me to experience more and find more and discover more in life. The curiosity is still there, but it's very, very open. In terms of what helped most with all the modalities that I tried, I believe meditating is likely the one that had the biggest impact. Therapy was nice, and it's not bad. But for me, what happened was I was just rehashing the past over and over and over again. And I couldn't break through, which is... And it made me feel worse, because I was just bringing up all these emotions again. So in meditation, I learned how to observe without attachment
55:39 Speaker 00 and without labeling it, without judging it, without resisting it, without wishing it were different. And through that process of surrender, that's what allowed me to be free and to heal finally.
55:52 Rick Rubin? During the process of writing, do you have anyone that you would show any of your work to as it's happening, or not until it's finished?
56:04 Speaker 00 Yeah, I actually don't show anyone until it's done.
56:07 Rick Rubin? The whole book?
56:08 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, this last book was different, and I, we had to go on such a quick timeline that I was basically sending chapter by chapter.
56:17 Speaker 00 But my preferred and general writing method is completing the full draft, editing it myself as if I were the sole editor.
56:27 Rick Rubin? Yes.
56:28 Speaker 00 Not delegating that part because the editing is still part of the art.
56:33 Speaker 00 And then, once I feel like I've taken it as far as I could, then I'll pass it to an editor. It's funny because my first book, I edited it myself. And then I had someone on Fiverr. Because I didn't know what I was doing. I just had someone on Fiverr edit the book for a few hundred bucks. And that was kind of it. They didn't add too much. They would point out certain things, but it was pretty much edited by just me. I think an editor can be good to help point out certain things where you might have missed things or want to elaborate more on. But I did do most of it. And I do enjoy editing it almost entirely myself.
57:13 Rick Rubin? With the first book, who was the first person who read it?
57:16 Speaker 00 My wife.
57:16 Rick Rubin? Correct. And how did she react?
57:19 Speaker 00 She, she's my biggest fan.
57:22 Rick Rubin? Oh, great.
57:23 Speaker 00 Yeah. And I always tell her, you don't have to, like, I get that you took a vow to me. And you're married to me and you want me to be happy. But like, you do not have to just hype me up and make me feel good. You can say it's trash and I'll be okay. Because then I'll have something to work on. But every time she reads it, she just says, this is the best thing ever. And I love reading it. And she doesn't read nonfiction, other than memoirs. So she loves reading fantasies, romance, some literary fiction. She reads a couple hundred books a year.
58:02 Rick Rubin? Wow. It's great that she's so supportive as well.
58:04 Speaker 00 She is.
58:06 Rick Rubin? Can you read to me something from the new book?
58:10 Speaker 00 Let me see. It'll be fun to, to read. Yeah, because I don't really read my work afterwards, after it's kind of published. Okay, here we go. The root of overthinking is fear. You're not stuck in indecision because you don't know what to do. You're stuck because you're afraid of what you will lose if you choose wrong. Fear is not an indication that something is wrong, but that you are on the verge of something right. Fear is not in the way, it is the way.
58:47 Rick Rubin? I love it, and I love the idea of fear being an indicator that you're onto something new, something good.
58:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
58:55 Rick Rubin? It's a helpful framing to change that feeling of anxiety to one of excitement.
59:02 Speaker 00 Yes.
59:03 Rick Rubin? Tell me something you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young.
59:09 Speaker 00 A personal one growing up was I believed I wasn't really good at anything. I was decent at most things, slightly better than average than most people at whatever I did do, but never the top. So because of that, I did hold a belief of I was just gonna be a pretty average person at whatever I put my mind to. And even in business, I was also incredibly average, fascinatingly average for how much effort I put into it. And it wasn't so much that I changed my belief around it. I just let go of wanting to be good.
59:51 Speaker 00 And then everything changed and then the book was written and now people may regard it as good. I still don't really have a particular judgment of whether it's good or bad. That's not really my role or authority to say that it is. But holding the inverse belief was quite damaging. And then a more universal thing I used to believe that I no longer do is more so believing that I needed to understand everything intellectually and to have an opinion or judgment on everything.
1:00:35 Speaker 00 So even if it's just the thought of walking through and, oh, it's really hot outside, totally unnecessary. Yeah. Like, my own judgment of the temperature created unnecessary suffering when it's objectively eighty-two degrees or ninety degrees, whatever it is. But the story around it, my judgment of it, creates all of that internal turmoil. And I didn't understand that I could just not do that. Yeah. Nobody told me that. I didn't have to think about everything. I didn't have to judge everything or make a conclusion in some way. It'll decide. Yeah.
1:01:19 Speaker 00 And nowadays, it's particularly difficult because people say, oh, if you're not with us, you're against us. What if I'm just neutral? Yeah. And that is also seen as an enemy now. So it's very interesting to see how the landscape of politics has changed. But I think being neutral or balanced is likely a more harmonic way to live rather than too much on one side. And I'll still flip every now and then as I learn new things and all that. Yeah, of course. I change my mind all the time. Of course. I actually change my beliefs all the time. Yeah. So what I believed a year ago, I don't believe anymore.
1:02:02 Speaker 00 Everything is questionable. And I do my best to do that. And so if it's, what is useful may not always be. And so I do my best to discard what no longer is true, even if it gave me what I have now. That's really wise. That's beautifully stated. Appreciate it. Really helpful. Yeah. Really helpful. And I only learned by getting beat down so many times. I was incredibly stubborn. And until I had to learn a lesson so many times, especially if I make a conclusion on something or someone. Yeah. Nothing is definitive. Everything is always changing.
1:02:45 Speaker 00 So if I think something about someone that is not absolutely true, it's only a piece of what I see of them. So to say someone is ultimately bad or evil.
1:02:59 Speaker 00 is an injustice to them and a disservice to myself.
1:03:29 Speaker 05 Tetragrammatin is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website. Tetragrammatin is a whole world of knowledge.
1:03:44 Speaker 06 What may fall within the sphere of Tetragrammatin? Counterculture? Tetragrammatin. Sacred geometry? Tetragrammatin. The avant-garde? Tetragrammatin. Generative art? Tetragrammatin. The tarot? Tetragrammatin. Out-of-print music? Tetragrammatin. Biodynamics? Tetragrammatin. Graphic design? Tetragrammatin. Mythology and magic? Tetragrammatin. Obscure film? Tetragrammatin. Beach culture? Tetragrammatin. Esoteric lectures? Tetragrammatin. Off-the-grid living? Tetragrammatin. Alt spirituality? Tetragrammatin. The canon of fine objects? Tetragrammatin. Muscle cars? Tetragrammatin.
1:04:26 Speaker 06 Ancient wisdom for a new age. Upon entering, experience the artwork of the day. Take a breath and see where you are drawn.
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