The day the dinosaurs died

What happened in the days, even hours, after an asteroid set off the fifth extinction? A New Jersey quarry, and site of a new museum founded by paleontologist Ken Lacovara, sheds light on the mystery. Original broadcast date: August 16, 2024 See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Manoush Zomorodi?

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• 1:22Manoush Zomorodi?

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• 1:52Manoush Zomorodi?

  I'm Manoush Zomorodi. Two, three, four, five. Today on the show, "The Day the Dinosaurs Died." The directions are... Last summer, I got a sneak peek at an unusual place in southern New Jersey that has recently opened to the public. Oh, here's the Lowe's. Because down Route 55, just a few minutes off Exit 53B, if you take a quick right onto a road that tucks behind a Lowe's hardware and a Chick-fil-A fast food restaurant... Whoa, there it is.

• 2:31Manoush Zomorodi?

  Oh, it's beautiful. There looms a massive, modern wooden building set at the edge of a large pit of dirt. A humongous pit in front of it. But this isn't just dirt. This pit is actually a dry quarry full of fossils. Wait, Ken. So nice to meet you. The paleontologist in charge of this operation and my tour guide is Ken Lacovara. And we are at the Edelman Fossil Park and Museum in Manchurah Township, New Jersey. As we walked from the parking lot to the museum and the pit, Ken explained that paleontologists have been collecting fossils in southern New Jersey for over a century.

• 3:16Manoush Zomorodi?

  In 1858, the world's first nearly complete dinosaur skeleton is found and dug up 11 miles from here in Haddonfield, New Jersey. But in 2003, when Ken first visited this site just south of Haddonfield, he wasn't that impressed. Honestly, I didn't think much of the site at the time. Ken was a professor in Philadelphia. Between lectures, he was bopping around the world to sites in Egypt, the Gobi Desert, Montana, Wyoming. And I looked at the site and I thought, "Whoa, what a muddy hellhole."

• 3:53Speaker 01

  This was just a close place where I could take our students so they could get a little experience digging fossils. You know, I'm embarrassed to say that I just didn't think much about doing research in New Jersey. And I was very, very wrong about that.

• 4:11Manoush Zomorodi?

  Ken had no idea that this muddy hellhole, it had hundreds of thousands of fossils that could answer mysteries from 66 million years ago.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  And the more I saw, the more I learned, the more I realized that now if I lived in Australia or Cape Town, I'd be coming here to do my research.

• 4:33Manoush Zomorodi?

  Really?

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. It's a unique window into a pivotal moment in time, the end of the time of the dinosaurs.

• 4:43Manoush Zomorodi?

  On the show today, we're traveling back 66 million years to the end of the dinosaurs and spending the hour with paleontologist Ken Lacovara. How his globe trotting, discovering some of the biggest fossils ever, eventually led him back to his home state of New Jersey. Why the clues he's uncovering here shed light on what happened in the days, even hours, after an asteroid hit the planet, and why Ken thinks the public needs to experience paleontology for themselves.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  So there you go. You found your fresh fossil, 66 million year old fossil spot.

• 5:20Manoush Zomorodi?

  What?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:22Manoush Zomorodi?

  That's amazing. Ken started visiting this quarry in 2003. At the time, it was a mine owned and operated by the same company since the 1920s.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  They mine a certain kind of mineral called glokinite here, which farmers call marl, like Marlton, Marlboro.

• 5:42Manoush Zomorodi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  And it's a good fertilizer, especially for acidic-loving plants like tomatoes and peppers, which are, you know, a big crop here in southern New Jersey.

• 5:53Manoush Zomorodi?

  For a while, Ken and his students would just follow the bulldozers around, collecting whatever fossils may have turned up by accident. But then, in 2007, with the recession, the company started to go belly up.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  And I thought, wow, it would be a shame to lose this site.

• 6:11Manoush Zomorodi?

  Yeah.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  And my immediate reaction was, we'll just dig faster.

• 6:16Manoush Zomorodi?

  As Ken dug, he realized that the pit wasn't just a good experience for his students. It had a lot more to offer.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  And so I started to ruminate on how we could maybe save this site. And in 2011, I partnered with Manchua Township, the local government here. Usually us paleontologists, we try to keep our site secret for obvious reasons. But I thought, no, I'm going to have to open this up to the public and build a grassroots effort around preserving this property.

• 6:48Manoush Zomorodi?

  Eventually, Ken joined forces with nearby Rowan University. Together, they raised tens of millions of dollars. And now, over a decade later, the quarry is open to anyone.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  So here we are at our first stop along the path to the bottom of the quarry. And every footfall, every step you take, on average, will take you back in time about 400,000 years.

• 7:14Manoush Zomorodi?

  As we descended, Ken pointed out layer after layer of sediment from earlier epochs.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Uppermost layer, that's Pleistocene, which isn't terribly long ago. There was a glacier that went from the North Pole down to New Brunswick, New Jersey, about 40 miles north of here. This area at the time would have been tundra with woolly mammoths and mastodons and dire wolves and giant sloths and things like that running around on the landscape.

• 7:42Manoush Zomorodi?

  Down, down, through time, until... Right there.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Right there. There it is.

• 7:50Manoush Zomorodi?

  You get to the bottom and the end of the Cretaceous period. We are walking through reeds, down to the spot where we can see what happened 66 million years ago, the fifth extinction, one of the most important events to affect life on our planet.

• 8:15Manoush Zomorodi?

  This layer of sediment, the ground we're walking on, is the extinction layer. And it's pretty thin.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the layer that we have that represents the extinction event is only about 15 centimeters thick, so six inches or so. And we've recovered over 100,000 fossils, representing over 100 different species.

• 8:36Manoush Zomorodi?

  The ground is teeming with fossils, if you know how to look for them.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  So, most of them are invertebrate fossils, clams, snails, oysters, things like that. We'll have turtles, and sharks, and mosasaurs, and bony fish, the rare dinosaur.

• 8:53Manoush Zomorodi?

  But in addition to all those fossils, the other key thing that Ken and his team have unearthed is a metal called iridium that's usually only found in asteroids. Ken explained the latest thinking on exactly what happened that day, 66 million years ago, when an asteroid slammed into the Earth.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  The asteroid impact happens 1,500 miles away from here, off the Yucatan Peninsula in what is now Mexico.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  It blasts a crater in the Earth's crust that's about 110 miles across by 12 miles deep, so that's roughly the size of Massachusetts, say.

• 9:36Manoush Zomorodi?

  Eight and a half minutes after the asteroid hits, a magnitude 10.3 earthquake rolls across the continent, probably knocking the largest dinosaurs down. But the deadliest moment comes about 16 minutes after the asteroid.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  All that material is blasted up through the atmosphere, goes into low Earth orbit, is pulverized into maybe millimeter-sized pieces, but it still has all the mass. So you've given that mass a tremendous amount of potential gravitational energy. When that stuff comes back in, it's got to balance the energy books.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  And the result that day, within the first hour, is global temperatures get up somewhere between toaster oven and pizza oven. So the dinosaurs that have dominated Earth's terrestrial ecosystems for 165 million years, I think are functionally extinct within an hour after that impact.

• 10:30Manoush Zomorodi?

  An hour? Do we know that for sure?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Well, here's what we know. I mean, all dinosaurs lived on land. Well, that day, if you can't do what little mammals did, or crocodiles, or lizards, or turtles, if you can't get into a burrow somewhere, dig underground somewhere, well, it's between toaster oven and pizza oven. You die on the surface of the Earth that day if you don't have a place to hide. And it doesn't look like the dinosaurs had a place to hide. Were there a few stragglers that, you know, maybe were at the mouth of a cave, or, you know, swimming at the time? Sure. But I think they were functionally extinct at that moment.

• 11:06Manoush Zomorodi?

  Several hours later, Ken says a tsunami likely over 130 feet high would have crashed into the coast right here, sweeping the dead dinosaurs out to sea, where they'd sink down to the ocean floor, creating a bone bed.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  A bone bed that is from the exact moment of the asteroid impact. In fact, it's the only place in the world where you can see a complete death assemblage of many, many species that are victims of that event with the fallout from the asteroid.

• 11:41Manoush Zomorodi?

  We walk around the site to get a different vantage point. And Ken says that the fallout from the asteroid, tiny pieces of it, have been found in over 350 sites around the world.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  But just from the ash, just from the material that falls from the sky. To date, the fossil occurrences in that layer have been very, very meager. There's some fish scales in Belgium. There's a pile of paddlefish in a dinosaur leg in North Dakota. That's about it. This site here that you're looking at has an entire collapsed ecosystem at that moment. We've recovered over 100,000 fossils, representing over 100 species. And they are interbedded with the fallout from that impact that happened off the coast of Mexico. So we have little glass spirals that rain down from the sky, little grains of what we call shocked quartz. And we have a spike in the level of the metal iridium, which is very, very rare in the

• 12:36Speaker 01

  crust of the earth, but very much more abundant in asteroids. And so this makes this the best window on the planet in that pivotal, calamitous moment that wiped out the dinosaurs and really made the modern world as we know it.

• 12:48Manoush Zomorodi?

  Why here?

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it was everywhere. We happen to have those deposits preserved here. And then we had a quarry here because of the mining operation since the first one of those that have been found.

• 13:01Manoush Zomorodi?

  Are there any others?

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Oh, there must be. You could probably go under the Loews and find these same deposits, or the Chick-fil-A, or...

• 13:07Manoush Zomorodi?

  How do you stop yourself from just like wanting to dig up everywhere here?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Well, I kind of do, but you know. It's taken us 14 years to excavate only 250 square meters. And these fossils are very important to science. And so we, you know, we excavate these for ourselves, but for future scientists as well. And so we have to document everything very carefully, curate the material very carefully, make sure it's preserved forever so that scientists 200 years from now can study these same fossils.

• 13:44Manoush Zomorodi?

  In a minute, more with paleontologist Ken Lacavara. He explains the geological conditions needed to preserve extraordinary fossils, like the one he found in Patagonia that led to the discovery of one of the biggest species of dinosaur to ever exist. On the show today, the day the dinosaurs died. I'm Manoush Zamirodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. We'll be right back.

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• 15:43Manoush Zomorodi?

  It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zamirodi. On the show today, we're in Mantua Township, New Jersey, home to a former fertilizer quarry that also happens to be a hotbed for fossils. Now, this once largely unknown pit that is filled with dinosaur bones and ancient sea life is open to the public as the Edelman Fossil Park and Museum. So we're standing on a terrace, and we're looking down. How many feet, would you say?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  It's 45.

• 16:16Manoush Zomorodi?

  Serving as my tour guide today, Ken Lakavara, the museum and parks director and a world-renowned paleontologist.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  You know, we'll move 20 meters a year. But we map everything. We map the smallest oyster shell and every snail, and then, you know, the occasional large bone from a mosasaur or something like that, occasional dinosaur bone shows up here. In fact, right over in the corner there, we found a femur of a dinosaur, and it had shark bite marks.

• 16:46Manoush Zomorodi?

  No way.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And because of the shape of the bite marks, we can actually take a pretty good guess and say it was a shark called Cretalamina that was scavenging this dinosaur as it floated out to sea.

• 16:58Manoush Zomorodi?

  Ken's enthusiasm, as he describes this shark chomping down on a dinosaur thigh, it is infectious. And he first felt this excitement back in second grade, when he was growing up just an hour from here, near the Jersey Shore.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  I grew up on the bay, near Atlantic City, New Jersey. And where I lived, there was really only sand and mud. And in second grade, a woman brought a box of rocks and minerals and fossils into my Cub Scout meeting. And I literally didn't know these things were in the world. And I got so excited after that. I wrote a little essay in second grade about igneous, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks. I wrote that sedimentary rocks are the best kinds of rocks, because you can find fossils in them. And now that I have a PhD in geology, I can confirm that they are the best kinds of rocks.

• 17:52Manoush Zomorodi?

  Ken's love of rocks, all kinds of rocks, continued throughout his young life. He actually played rock professionally, right after graduating high school.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  I spent a year as the house drummer at the Golden Nugget Casino in Atlantic City.

• 18:07Manoush Zomorodi?

  And then, at the age of 20, Ken went to college, got a master's in geography, a PhD in geology, and landed a job as a professor at Drexel University.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  And before you know it, I'm in the Bahre-Ria Oasis, digging up giant dinosaurs. And that year, our team discovered a dinosaur that I would later coin Parala Titan, which means title giant.

• 18:31Manoush Zomorodi?

  And even after all those decades, traveling the world, looking for fossils...

• 18:36Speaker 01

  I still feel today, every time I pick up a fossil, this unbelievable sense of awe and wonder and connectedness to things that are much bigger than myself. When you realize that you're the first person to ever see that object, that object hasn't moved, in this case, 66 million years, until you applied some energy to it. And you now know a little something that no human has ever known before. And when you have that experience, you want it again, and again, and again.

• 19:11Manoush Zomorodi?

  You have quoted a friend who likes to say, "An expedition is an adventure with a purpose." Tell me about some of the expeditions, or shall we say adventures with purpose, that you went on.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. This kind of lifestyle is not for everybody. I've spent probably two years of my life living in a tent without plumbing, without electricity, in some very harsh conditions.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  You know, what I've really come to learn is that I think comfort is overrated. I mean, the things that give you the creature comforts aren't really the things that result in meaning in your life. And when I'm in the field, I am almost always uncomfortable. I'm always too hot or too cold, or just weather beaten, sand pelting your skin all the time. Food poisoning is an old friend of mine.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  You know, in Patagonia, I would wake up in the morning and the water bottle inside my tent would have ice in it. And there were almost always scorpions living under my tent. So I had to be careful to just stay on that little foam pad that I had in the middle of the tent. Usually puma tracks outside the tent in the morning.

• 20:23Manoush Zomorodi?

  Wow.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  You know, you get weather beaten. And my skin would get leathery and my hands would crack and be calloused and would bleed. And you know what? None of that matters. None of that matters when you are time traveling with stuff that you bought at the hardware store. None of that matters when you're seeing things that no human has ever seen before. And I wouldn't trade a minute of it for anything. And, you know, I've never felt more like me than I do when I'm in the field digging up dinosaurs.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  How do you find a dinosaur? Sounds impossible, doesn't it?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 21:03Manoush Zomorodi?

  In 2016, Ken gave a TED Talk and he said that when it comes to finding fossils, there's a simple formula.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  First, find rocks of the right age. Second, those rocks must be sedimentary rocks. And third, layers of those rocks must be naturally exposed. That's it. Find those three things and get yourself on the ground. Chances are good that you will find fossils. The question is, will you find something that is scientifically significant? And to help with that, I'm going to add a fourth part to our formula, which is this. Get as far away from other paleontologists as possible.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  It's not that I don't like other paleontologists. When you go to a place that's relatively unexplored, you have a much better chance of not only finding fossils, but of finding something that's new to science. So that's my formula for finding dinosaurs, and I've applied it all around the world. In the austral summer of 2004, I went to the bottom of South America, to the bottom of Patagonia, Argentina, to prospect for dinosaurs. A place that had terrestrial sedimentary rocks of the right age, in a desert, a place that had been barely visited by paleontologists.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  That site in Patagonia had these vast, vast expanses of Badlands, which is just kind of the sweet spot in terms of erosion. You don't want too much erosion because it destroys the sediment and the fossils. And you don't want too little because then the ground becomes stabilized and covered with plants and you can't see what's under it. So in a Badlands environment, like we have out west at Badlands National Park, or in Patagonia, or lots of other places that paleontologists love, you get just the right amount of rain so that you get, you always get new faces of the rock exposed where you can see new fossils. But it's not so much that it destroys things too fast. So you have an opportunity, once they're exposed, to get to them.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Because when you think about it, like, those fossils that have been preserved underground for 66 or 100 or hundreds of millions of years, when they hit the surface because of erosion, they start to weather very rapidly. And I have seen dinosaur skeletons that I know were only exposed maybe a few years before that. Have essentially turned to dust.

• 23:25Manoush Zomorodi?

  Oh, really?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Sure. So out of, you know, think of out of 100 million years, the fossil and the paleontologist have to arrive at the same spot on Earth within a couple of years where they never get to see each other.

• 23:40Manoush Zomorodi?

  It's a rendezvous in the cosmos that seems very, very unlikely.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  It really is. And it's extremely unlikely for any one individual. The chance of any one individual becoming a fossil is almost zero, but it's not zero.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  So it was down there in Patagonia where I first came across what I would say would be maybe a tea saucer sized piece of bone exposed in the desert. Didn't get too particularly excited about that because you do find that all the time. And began to uncover that and it turned into what was a seven foot femur. This is a femur, a thigh bone of a giant plant eating dinosaur. That bone is 2.2 meters across. That's over seven feet long. Now unfortunately, that bone was isolated. We dug and dug and dug and there wasn't another bone around, but it made us hungry to go back the next year for more.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  And on the first day of that next field season, I found this, another two meter femur. Only this time not isolated, this time associated with 145 other bones of a giant plant eater. And after three more hard, really brutal field seasons, the quarry came to look like this. And there you see the tail of that great beast wrapping around me. And the giant that lay in this grave, the new species of dinosaur, we would eventually call Dreadnoughtus shrani. Dreadnoughtus was 85 feet from snout to tail. It stood two and a half stories at the shoulder and all fleshed out in life, it weighed 65 tons.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  People ask me sometimes, was Dreadnoughtus bigger than a T. rex? That's the mass of eight or nine T. rex. Now, one of the really cool things about being a paleontologist is when you find a new species, you get to name it. And I've always thought it a shame that these giant plant eating dinosaurs are too often portrayed as passive, lumbering platters of meat on the landscape.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  They're not. Big herbivores can be surly and they can be territorial. You do not want to mess with a hippo or a rhino or a water buffalo. The bison in Yellowstone injure far more people than do the grizzly bears. So can you imagine a big bull, 65-ton dreadnoughtus in the breeding season, defending a territory? That animal would have been incredibly dangerous, a menace to all around, and itself would have had nothing to fear. And thus the name Dreadnoughtus, where fear's nothing.

• 26:22Manoush Zomorodi?

  Dreadnoughtus was huge, one of the biggest dinosaurs ever discovered. And it was huge for you personally and the world of paleontology. But Ken, what about the moment when you saw Dreadnoughtus appear in the Jurassic World movie?

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Well, that is a heck of a thrill for a paleontologist, I have to say. The adult me and the eight-year-old me couldn't be happier about that. So, yeah, I was sitting in a theater in Wilmington, Delaware, watching that movie. And Sam Neill kind of takes off his glasses and looks out of the helicopter and says, "Is that a dreadnoughtus?" Is that a dreadnoughtus? And I said, "Hell, yeah, it is."

• 27:05Manoush Zomorodi?

  The name means fear nothing. I guess you know that.

• 27:12Manoush Zomorodi?

  Okay, shall we go in?

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 27:14Manoush Zomorodi?

  So, coming face to face with a live dinosaur is, of course, impossible today. Sorry, Jurassic World.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  So, this hall is called Dinosaur Coast.

• 27:23Manoush Zomorodi?

  But in the Edelman Museum, Ken wants to give people maybe the next best thing. Oh, my gosh. Getting to stand next to life-sized Cretaceous-era dinosaurs as they roam, eat, protect their nests, and fight, just as they would have done so long ago. Okay, this is some models, very impressive models. They're two beasts battling it out. Tell us exactly what I'm seeing right now.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  So this is a big plant-eating dinosaur, I think, long-necked, long-tail, quadruped. It's 40 feet long. And you see here, a big predator from the east coast called Acrocanthosaurus.

• 28:04Manoush Zomorodi?

  The Acrocanthosaurus is like a slightly smaller T-Rex, and it is pinned down on its back, teeth bared, as the long-necked, much larger plant eater towers above it.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, the big herbivores, they're surly and they're territorial. They don't want to eat you, they just want to kill you.

• 28:23Manoush Zomorodi?

  Wow.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Right? So here we have a giant, you know, maybe 25-ton plant eater. And this also juvenile Acrocanthosaurus made the mistake of trying to attack it, and you can see it's paying for that in discretion with its life.

• 28:39Manoush Zomorodi?

  Working with a paleo artist, that's a cool job, Ken has filled the exhibit with ultra-realistic sculptures, each one special in its own way.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  That's right. So this is Hadrosaurus here, a big plant eater.

• 28:51Manoush Zomorodi?

  Complete with scaly skin, flexing muscles, even worn-down toenails on their hind feet.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  And again, this is a dinosaur that is often portrayed as kind of like the cows of the Cretaceous, kind of dopey, sleepy plant eaters. Not so. This thing is the mass of two hippos. So it's going to be an extremely dangerous creature. And our amazing sculptor, Gary Staub, who recreated all these with us, and I think he's really the world's best. You know, I said, Gary, like, make this thing look menacing, give it the crazy horse eyes, you know?

• 29:19Manoush Zomorodi?

  Oh, yeah, he's looking me in the eye right now, and I am feeling a little bit spooked.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. And the reason that this mama Hadrosaurus is so upset, because Dryptosaurus here is about to leap over the aisle here and attack the baby Hadrosaurus.

• 29:33Manoush Zomorodi?

  There's no sugar coating.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  No, there's not. We're really trying to show the authentic gritty side of the dinosaur world. And dinosaurs, like any creatures, they had their triumphs and their tragedies and their challenges. And, you know, this isn't about like, ha-ha, funny dinosaurs. This is like, these are real, authentic creatures that evolved and were amazing under their own auspices, and we're trying to show all of that.

• 29:58Manoush Zomorodi?

  And of course, they want to show what would have happened to these dinosaurs in those pivotal moments after the asteroid hit.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  And then, about three hours later, the heat blast, which would be hurricane-force hot air, comes through this area, knocking down probably 90% of trees. And then somewhere between like maybe 12 to 18 hours, a tsunami that might have been 42 meters high crashes on the coast. It grabs the now barbecued dinosaur bodies, and the trees that are knocked down in the sediment hauls it out to sea, where it sinks down to the ocean in marine deposits like we have here.

• 30:37Manoush Zomorodi?

  Wow. So here, right here, would have been water, but this would have been a floating sea of carcasses, essentially.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah. And for big marine animals like a mosasaur, big marine lizard, it's probably a great time right after that, right? All these bodies to scavenge. And remember I told you that years ago, I found a dinosaur femur in the quarry that had shark bite marks on it?

• 30:59Manoush Zomorodi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  And so this is a recreation of that scene with the kind of shark we think was making those marks, called Cretalaminna. And then to get ready to sculpt this bloat-and-float dinosaur, our sculptor, Gary Staub, got a dead plucked chicken and put it in an aquarium outside for a month.

• 31:16Manoush Zomorodi?

  Oh.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  And watched it rot and bloat and unfold. And this position that you see here is the exact position that the chicken struck after a month of rotting in the aquarium.

• 31:27Manoush Zomorodi?

  I mean, I have never seen a model like this. It is a massive dinosaur that looks like it's floating listlessly with pieces of flesh hanging off of it. Oh, wow, a whole foot has fallen off to the ground. Gross. But this is it.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Yep, keeping it real.

• 31:45Manoush Zomorodi?

  So this idea of being able to see the land from whence the dinosaur came, and then also see the bones that have been extracted, that is the experience that you are offering visitors in New Jersey, back to your home state.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. New Jersey actually has a very historic place in the history of paleontology. Very few people know this, but we hope to change that. So dinosaurs are first recognized as a group of organisms by a British paleontologist, Sir Richard Owen. And in 1842, he gives them the name dinosaurs from some very scant remains that he's working with that are found mostly in southern Britain. He can't really tell what they are because his evidence is so poor. So he gives them the name dinosaur, which means terrible lizard. They're not lizards at all, but he couldn't tell the difference based on what he had to work with. So that's 1842. In 1858, the world's first nearly complete dinosaur skeleton

• 32:53Speaker 01

  is found and excavated in Haddonfield, New Jersey, about 11 miles from the fossil park. And of course, everybody's heard of T. rex, the world's most famous dinosaur. But T. rex is not the only tyrannosaur. There are about 25 other species of tyrannosaur, and T. rex was not the first one found. The first tyrannosaur ever discovered is named Dryptosaurus, found in 1866 in Mantua Township, New Jersey, about a mile from the fossil park. So the world's first nearly complete dinosaur skeleton and the world's first tyrannosaur found in southern New Jersey. So paleontologists all over the world actually know about the dinosaurs of southern New Jersey, even though people in southern New Jersey might not be aware.

• 33:38Manoush Zomorodi?

  When we come back, what's in store for New Jersey residents and people all over the world if they visit and dig for fossils themselves? And my experience in the dirt. Oh, what's this?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a nice piece.

• 33:54Manoush Zomorodi?

  Today on the show, paleontologist Ken Lacavara and the day the dinosaurs died. I'm Manoush Zamirodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. Stick with us.

• 34:15Speaker 04

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• 35:07Manoush Zomorodi?

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• 35:24Manoush Zomorodi?

  All right. It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and I am walking in a chapter of history, a quarry in southern New Jersey where 66 million years ago, a bunch of dinosaurs perished and formed a special library of bones that is being excavated. All this hour, we have been talking to paleontologist Ken Lacovara. And in addition to doing research at the new Edelman Fossil Park and Museum, he and the team have another mission: invite people to get down and dirty, literally.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  So this is an area where the public is invited to come and collect.

• 36:09Manoush Zomorodi?

  It looks like a pile of dirt, Ken.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  It is definitely a pile of dirt, but it's a very special pile of dirt.

• 36:15Manoush Zomorodi?

  A few years ago, before construction started on the museum, the public was invited for a kind of open house, "Come Dig for the Day." 2,000 people signed up within 14 minutes. 9,000 ended up on the waiting list. Ken says people are gaga for fossils. And now, folks can visit the museum and hunt for fossils themselves.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Well, there are some great museums, of course, in our country. And there's lots of dig sites where Professionals like me work. There's no place like this. There's no place that combines a world-class museum with really a world-class excavation site that also has places where people can dig for fossils with their own hands. And just, I should say, with that extinction layer, which is our research area, we protect and curate that very carefully and excavate that very, very methodically. But a layer above that, which is from just after the last moments of the dinosaurs, is still full of fossils. And those fossils aren't particularly scientifically important. So I think their best use is really for education, for inspiration. And that's the layer, when people come here, that they get to dig in.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  And everybody that comes here and who's not afraid to get their hands dirty and who tries a little bit finds a 66-million-year-old fossil with their own hands that they get to take home.

• 37:31Manoush Zomorodi?

  After hearing about the history of the site, the story of the asteroid, and Ken's incredible adventures all around the world, I was ready to look for a fossil myself. So what do I do?

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Well, so you're looking for things that used to be alive. So you want to look for the hallmarks of life, which is pattern, form, symmetry. If you find something that looks like a random clump of dirt, it's probably a random clump of dirt, right?

• 37:59Manoush Zomorodi?

  Okay.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  So think of, think of a snail, think of a clam, think of a bone. Like, it's a very particular shape, right? So there are fossils right here. I see some fossils right here.

• 38:08Manoush Zomorodi?

  You see them just like...

• 38:09Speaker 01

  I do. I see fossils everywhere. So there you go. You found your fresh fossil.

• 38:14Manoush Zomorodi?

  That's it? That was easy?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  This is a fossil sponge. So a sponge is a little filter-feeding organism that lives on the seafloor. They draw in water, and they have these little cilia, these little hairs, and they filter-feed what's in the water. And you just found a 66-million-year-old fossil sponge.

• 38:31Manoush Zomorodi?

  What?

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 38:33Manoush Zomorodi?

  That's amazing.

• 38:35Manoush Zomorodi?

  So what do you hope to learn next? Because you showed me the area where the public will not be allowed to go, where you and your colleagues are working to excavate. And when you find something there, you take it to your lab. And tell me some of the questions you're hoping to answer next.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Well, it's all about the context. And so we're trying to really understand how this moment in time unfolded. What's the sequence of events? And so we do what I would call microstratigraphy. We really look at things, you know, almost a millimeter at a time to try to understand the minutes and the seconds that unfolded after this earth-shattering calamity. But also, we're learning a lot about the ecosystem. We can see who lived there. We can see who floated into it, so who was also living on land. We can see, in some cases, who was eating who by predation marks or scavenging marks on the bone. And then occasionally, we find either new species

• 39:38Speaker 01

  or maybe the best example of a known species. And so it's really increasing our knowledge of the fossil fauna of this part of the world. And the East Coast has received relatively little attention compared to the western part of our country and other places in the world. It's not because those creatures weren't there. They were certainly there. What matters is presence, that they were here, and there's a story to be told.

• 40:06Manoush Zomorodi?

  I want to make sure we talk some more about the ultimate mission of the museum, which is getting people to think about dinosaurs and humans as part of the same story, which I don't think we actually do think, right? We think, oh, my gosh, there was this ancient time and so far away. But you're trying to get people to really connect with that, to realize that you cannot tell our story without theirs.

• 40:38Manoush Zomorodi?

  Was that something that you've always been thinking about?

• 40:42Speaker 01

  It's been all my adult life, I have to say. I always felt this connectedness when I would see a rock or a fossil to the ancient past. And dinosaurs, you know, you think of them as being old, they were here not that long ago. They went extinct less than 2% of Earth's history ago. So if you turn Earth's history into a single calendar year, the dinosaurs go extinct the day after Christmas, December 26th. So dinosaurs just happened. They were just here in terms of Earth's history.

• 41:12Manoush Zomorodi?

  You talk about wanting people to understand this concept of deep time. How do you hope to explain that to people?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Well, there's two things, really. When you look at our place in the cosmos, it's incredibly small, right? I mean, even just in the solar system, it's very, very tiny. You could fit a million Earths in Jupiter and a million Jupiters in the Sun. So we want people to really feel that isolation that is reality, that we live on this tiny, fragile, little lifeboat in space. And, you know, there is no planet B. We have no other place to go. All we have and all we will ever have is our biosphere and our hydrosphere and our very thin atmosphere and each other.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  So we want to provide that perspective and then the deep time perspective, that, you know, another analogy that we use in a film in the museum is to look at Earth's history in a thousand-page book with the Earth beginning four and a half billion years ago on page one. So if I gave you, Manousha, a thousand-page book and said, "Just read the last word and tell me what this book is about," you wouldn't have a very good idea, would you? And so those two things, giving people a sense of how small we are in space and how small we are in time, those two things, what Carl Sagan called "the great demotion," I think sets us up to realize that, you know what? This world really isn't all about us. And we can see now through the lens of deep time, through the lens of geology.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  That things can go off the rails. We have had five previous mass extinctions. And every one of those, we know now from geology and paleontology, was the result of a climate crisis. If you think about it in terms of that asteroid, well, we are now the asteroid of our age. But we don't have to be, and it's not too late to turn the tide. And so really, what we want to do at the Edelman Fossil Park Museum is to use that window on the past to contextualize our present to help us protect the future. Sixty-six million years ago, an asteroid hits the Earth and wipes out the dinosaurs. This easily might not have been.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  But we only get one history, and it's the one that we have. But this particular reality was not inevitable. The tiniest perturbation of that asteroid far from Earth would have caused it to miss our planet by a wide margin. The pivotal calamitous day during which the dinosaurs were wiped out, setting the stage for the modern world as we know it, didn't have to be. It could have just been another day, among the 63 billion days already enjoyed by the dinosaurs. But over geological time, improbable, nearly impossible events do occur along the path from our wormy Cambrian ancestors to primates dressed in suits. Innumerable forks in the road led us to this very particular reality.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  The bones of Dreadnautilus lay underground for 77 million years. Who could have imagined that a single species of shrew-like mammal living in the cracks of the dinosaur world would evolve into sentient beings capable of characterizing and understanding the very dinosaurs they must have dreaded? Why study the ancient past? Because it gives us perspective and humility. The dinosaurs died in the world's fifth mass extinction, snuffed out in a cosmic accident through no fault of their own. They didn't see it coming, and they didn't have a choice. We, on the other hand, do have a choice.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  And the nature of the fossil record tells us that our place on this planet is both precarious and potentially fleeting. Right now, our species is propagating an environmental disaster of geological proportions that is so broad and so severe, it can rightly be called the sixth extinction. Only unlike the dinosaurs, we can see it coming. And unlike the dinosaurs, we can do something about it. That choice is ours.

• 45:34Manoush Zomorodi?

  I have to admit, Ken, that I, depending on what mood I'm in, whether it's optimistic or pessimistic, I could also see this understanding of deep time, or this idea that we're just one word at the end of a big book. I could see it as sort of from sort of an existentialist nihilistic perspective, you know? What if we just erase that one word? Or no one might even notice? Maybe we are just tiny specks and our time here will be short.

• 46:15Manoush Zomorodi?

  And I know that that's not helpful in any way, but I can't help but having sort of a dark look on it. We are so insignificant in light of all you show us at the museum.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  You could easily go down that route. You know, I think those thoughts too. I mean, you can eventually start thinking about the proton death of the universe. So then, you know, why bother? But I just feel, knowing what I know about the fossil record and deep time, I feel so fortunate to be alive, to be a homo sapien, to be, you know, me in particular, not that I'm anything special, but I mean, just to be, you know, to have the life that I've lived. I just feel gratitude for that, and I would like to preserve that for others. Yeah, we are tiny little specks, but, you know, I love all the other specks. And I'd like them to have a nice planet to live on.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  And, you know, what really, what choice have we? You could, you could look at what's happening with the climate right now. You could look at what's happening with the biodiversity crisis right now. And it could fill you with despair, rightly so. But I think hope is a choice. I do think that we can turn the tide on this, but we have to act and we have to act now. That's clear.

• 47:38Manoush Zomorodi?

  I think one of the things that really struck me visiting the museum was, like you say, it is addictive, finding fossils and being there on the site where something so significant happened is really moving. I guess I'm wondering, do you think you can shift this sense of hopefulness and optimism? Because it needs to happen at younger ages when it comes to climate change, doesn't it? I mean, kids connecting with this idea of deep time so that it can motivate them to remain optimistic and hopeful and do something about climate change.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  You know, really, we need everybody. If you're not familiar with something, how are you going to fall in love with it? Right? I mean, you love what you know, and then you protect what you love. And we need everybody to fall in love with our planet. We need everybody to fall in love with our biosphere. And when that happens, we're going to protect it because that's what humans do. And I don't actually worry that much about the younger generation. They get it. But we don't have time for them to grow up and take those positions of power to do something about it. We need to act now.

• 48:49Manoush Zomorodi?

  It was time to wrap up our day at the fossil park. But we wanted to look for one last fossil. And it turned out my son Kai had a knack for it.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a nice piece.

• 49:04Manoush Zomorodi?

  What is it, Ken?

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Well, it looks like a sponge, but it's so big, it's kind of throwing me a little bit. They don't usually get this big.

• 49:12Manoush Zomorodi?

  And it is kind of weirdly uniform.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Well, it's alive. I mean, it was alive, right? It's alive to me. But it has, you know, the symmetry of nature. I'm just hesitating because there's an outside chance that this is bone.

• 49:27Manoush Zomorodi?

  There was a long pause as everyone watched Ken examine the mysterious fossil. You're poking and prodding it.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm seeing if I can dig my fingernail into it, which tells me something about the hardness of it.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  The texture. All right, this is one I want to look at later. Yeah, it's a good one, though.

• 49:48Manoush Zomorodi?

  Ken popped the fossil into his pocket. We're still waiting to hear back whether it's another sponge or indeed a dinosaur bone. But it's easy to imagine kids of all ages and adults passing hours here, looking at the ground and thinking about how extraordinary it is that they are standing right there, a place that tens of millions of years ago was teeming with life. Life that has changed form, but we can still touch. And in addition to all the biology, geology, and philosophy, it just feels good to touch the earth with our human hands.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  You know, a lot of kids these days don't get a lot of outdoor time.

• 50:36Manoush Zomorodi?

  No, they don't get dirty.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so we kind of have to teach them how to get their hands dirty here and in some cases, teach them how to be outside and, you know, take the gloves off, literally, and get your hands in the mud and... But they get it and they have a ball doing it. I've never heard a kid who wanted to leave this place. I've only heard kids begging their parents or their teacher for them to stay longer.

• 50:59Manoush Zomorodi?

  How unusual is that to have professional paleontologists working within the same vicinity of the public, kids digging around too?

• 51:08Speaker 01

  There are a few. It's not usual, that's not for lack of desire of paleontologists, to help educate the public. It's just that most of the places that we work are very remote and, you know, they can often be dangerous. They're pretty hostile. The place where I worked in Patagonia for a long time, like, everything there wants to hurt you. The plants do, the rocks do, the wind does, the temperature does. So it's not that hospitable for the, for the general public. This place is nice, it's all sand here, so, I mean, it's literally a big sandbox. You can have a three-year-old in here and they can do a belly flop and nobody gets hurt, it's just fine.

• 51:43Manoush Zomorodi?

  And they can go to Applebee's afterwards.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah, there's plenty of amenities. I mean, you know, for a paleontologist, having an excavation site next to a Lowe's is kind of our dream. In Patagonia, I would have an eight-hour drive to get a shovel or a screwdriver.

• 52:02Manoush Zomorodi?

  Ken Lacovara is a professor of paleontology and geology and founding dean of the School of Earth and Environment at Rowan University. He is also founder and executive director of the Edelman Fossil Park of Rowan University and the author of the book, Why Dinosaurs Matter. Many thanks to Ken and the team at Rowan and the Edelman Park. And thank you for listening to our show today. This episode was produced by James Delahoussaye and edited by me and Sana Zmashkhanpour. Many thanks to Josh and Kai Robin for their help, too. Our TED Radio Hour team also includes Rachel Faulkner White, Katie Monteleone, Fiona

• 52:42Manoush Zomorodi?

  Girin, Matthew Cloutier, Hersha Nahada, and Chloe Weiner. Irene Noguchi is our executive producer. Our audio engineers were Robert Rodriguez and Peter Alina. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Roxane Hylash, Alejandra Salazar, and Daniela Balarezzo. I'm Manoush Zamirodi, and you've been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

• 53:12Manoush Zomorodi?

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.