Pod Insights TED Radio Hour How to repair your most important relationships About this episode It's never too late to make things right—even when cracks form within our relationships with our families, our environment...or the inevitable. This hour, TED speakers offer healing solutions.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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0:43 Speaker 06 I literally feel like I'm a different person.
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0:47 Speaker 06 Do you feel that way?
0:48 Manoush Zomorodi? Ideas worth spreading. From TED and NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. So, as I've mentioned before, I have another job besides this one. I'm a parent. And as anyone who is a parent or has a parent knows, playing hooky is not an option, as much as you might like to.
1:13 Speaker 07 I had a day. Like, I had a day. I was super stressed out. I hadn't slept. I was thinking about a million things at work. It was Sunday night. I mean, I don't know any parent who's, like, at their best on Sunday night.
1:25 Manoush Zomorodi? This is Becky Kennedy. She's a clinical psychologist and a mother of three. That night, she was in the kitchen. It was time for dinner.
1:34 Speaker 07 And my son walked into the kitchen. He looked at the table, and he's like, "Ugh, chicken. Disgusting." Literally, like, that, you know?
1:48 Manoush Zomorodi? Oh, so I'm just, I'm dying inside because substitute many different meals into that sentence, and you're at my dinner table with my daughter.
1:57 Speaker 07 Right, exactly. So I did what any normal parent would do, which did not include a deep breath, thank you very much. I freaked out at him. I was like, what is wrong with you? You don't appreciate anything I do. Did I call him a spoiled brat? Did I? I was scary. I was reactive. I mean, the way I look at it now, my bucket of not getting my own needs met, my bucket of stress was at its max. And all it took was my son dropping one drop in there for the entire thing to overflow.
2:32 Manoush Zomorodi? You gave it right back to him harder and faster because you're an adult.
2:37 Speaker 07 Yes.
2:38 Manoush Zomorodi? And had it, was he like, oh, mom's having a tough night?
2:42 Speaker 07 No, he was not like that. He, you know, um, he ran to his room and slammed his door. And now he's alone in his room and I'm alone in the kitchen.
2:55 Manoush Zomorodi? What was going through your mind?
2:57 Speaker 07 I, um, I felt like I was in an abyss, you know, going down, down, down. What is wrong with me? Why did I yell at my son? I wish I could take that moment back and I can't take that moment back. And then also like, what is wrong with my son? He's so ungrateful and he made me yell and oh, no one makes me yell, Becky. You know, and then, oh, if anyone ever saw that this is the way you actually talk to your kid, they wouldn't even believe it.
3:28 Speaker 07 And it felt like in that moment, time like stood still.
3:37 Manoush Zomorodi? The most important bonds in our lives are often the most fragile. When we argue or don't own up to our mistakes, we can make our loved ones and ourselves miserable. And so today on the show, Relationship Repair. When communication breaks down, how to fix things between us and our family, our planet, and even our mortality. For Becky Kennedy, that moment in her kitchen when she lost her cool. Well, she also knew what could make the situation better because she's not just a mom. She's Dr. Becky. You may have heard of her.
4:17 Speaker 07 Hi. I'm Dr. Becky Kennedy, and I'm the creator of the Good Inside Approach.
4:21 Manoush Zomorodi? As part of her mini-media empire, she gives parenting advice to millions of millennial moms and dads on social media.
4:28 Speaker 07 And big picture, I'm looking to be a parent's co-pilot for their entire parenting journey.
4:34 Manoush Zomorodi? Her approach is less punish and reward, like with timeouts or sticker charts.
4:39 Speaker 07 I promise you it leads to more bad behavior because our kids never learn new skills.
4:43 Manoush Zomorodi? And more of the positive reinforcement and no judgment style often found in therapy.
4:49 Speaker 07 Being a sturdy leader in any of your relationships with your kids, with your partner, with your friends.
4:55 Manoush Zomorodi? This translates into parents examining and accepting their own emotions first, and then validating their child's.
5:03 Speaker 07 Yes, it is about validating and seeing kids' feelings as real, but that goes side by side. With having real, firm boundaries, you then are able to create the conditions for kids to thrive.
5:18 Manoush Zomorodi? It's a method that can be hard to deploy right when your child is driving you nuts and you just yelled at them.
5:24 Speaker 07 Well, if you're a parent, you've probably felt that pain.
5:28 Manoush Zomorodi? Becky Kennedy continues from the TED stage.
5:31 Speaker 07 For me, it comes with an extra layer of shame. I mean, my specialty is helping people become better parents.
5:42 Speaker 07 And yet, this is true as well. There is no such thing as a perfect parent. Mistakes and struggles, they come with the job, but no one tells us what to do next. Do we just move on? Kind of just pretend the whole thing never happened? Or if I say something, what are the words? Well, I'm determined to fill this gap. Whenever a parent asks me, what one parenting strategy should I focus on, I always say the same thing: Get good at repair.
6:15 Manoush Zomorodi? You say get good at repair. So like, what does repair mean to you?
6:21 Speaker 07 Repair is really the act of going back to a moment that didn't feel good, taking responsibility, reconnecting, and making a plan for going forward. You know, kind of change the ending of a story.
6:40 Speaker 07 It's not the yelling that messes up a kid. It's the lack of repair after the yelling that messes up a kid. So let's get back to my example. Here are the facts. My son is alone, overwhelmed, and in a state of distress because, let's face it, his mom just became scary mom. And now he has to figure out a way to get back to feeling safe and secure. And if I don't go help him do that through making a repair, he has to rely on one of the only coping mechanisms he has at his own disposal: self-blame.
7:25 Speaker 07 Self-blame sounds like this: Something's wrong with me. I'm unlovable. I make bad things happen. And while self-blame works for us in childhood, we all know it works against us in adulthood. These are the core fears of so many adults. But really, we see here, they are actually the childhood stories we wrote when we were left alone following distressing events that went unrepaired. This relates to trauma in general, right? People always ask me, is this traumatic? Is it traumatic that I yelled? Is it traumatic that my kids saw us fight? Whatever the thing is.
8:08 Speaker 07 Trauma isn't an event. Trauma refers to the way an event gets processed in the body. And really, trauma refers to an event stored in aloneness rather than within a safe connection. In this case, with an adult. And so, the power of repair really changes our focus from the event or the behavior of, let's say, the yelling to, okay, what can I do next to actually change the way that memory will live in my child's body?
8:47 Manoush Zomorodi? Damaging your child forever. It's many parents' biggest fear. But for every mistake, Dr. Becky has a process to fix it.
8:58 Speaker 07 Step one is rupture. Check that off. I crushed it.
9:04 Manoush Zomorodi? Step two, a quick apology won't cut it.
9:07 Speaker 07 That sounds like this, hey, listen, I'm really sorry I yelled. I mean, look, if you didn't complain about dinner, it wouldn't have happened. But I'm sorry, that is not a repair. That doesn't count.
9:15 Manoush Zomorodi? But it is probably what you were thinking inside, though, a little bit, right?
9:20 Speaker 07 You know, the idea that my son made me yell at him, it's just the most powerless version of adulthood. People don't make us behave in certain ways. I was triggered in that moment. And my trigger had to do with so many things, of which my son was like a tiny part.
9:39 Manoush Zomorodi? So yes, your child will provoke you. But before you address that behavior, you need to take step three.
9:46 Speaker 07 Repairing with yourself. That really, really matters, even though it sounds kind of cheesy. And even if my son says the worst thing to me, it's definitely outside of my value system to yell at my young child. So for me, that is a behavior out of line with my own values. We all have them. And often what stops us from repairing is actually that we feel intense shame about the behavior we would repair for. And we literally then can't even face it enough to name it and repair because we're trying so hard to avoid that reality.
10:20 Manoush Zomorodi? Okay, so it's really like giving yourself a timeout and making a clear distinction between the bad thing you did versus who you actually are as a person.
10:31 Speaker 07 Yes. I'm a good parent who is having a hard time. That is very different than I am a bad person who does bad things. And so reminding myself of that, it really took probably the ninth or 10th time for me to feel a tiny release in my body. You know, and I was no longer in abyss, maybe just a hole. But a hole is a lot better than an abyss. It's a significant upgrade, I assure you. Right? And then like, it was like, I kind of was raising enough to kind of get grounded again. And only from that place can we repair with someone else.
11:07 Manoush Zomorodi? Now we're ready for the actual repair.
11:10 Speaker 07 And to me, there's some very basic steps of repairing with someone else. It's just name what happened, take responsibility for your behavior, and state what you would do differently the next time.
11:22 Speaker 07 Hey, listen, I yelled at you earlier. I'm sure that felt scary. And this might seem controversial, but I said this. It's never your fault when I yell. Look, I was frustrated and I'm working on managing my frustration. So it doesn't come out in that way. That's not okay. And because I had repaired with myself and got to feeling like, okay, there is goodness inside me, separate from this moment. I wasn't unconsciously looking for him to validate that. So even though he was kind of quiet in the moment, like, I didn't have to say to him, so it's okay, right? So you forgive me, right? Which we're really saying to someone, please do the work that I could internally be doing for myself, for me.
12:06 Manoush Zomorodi? Yeah. Why did you say that it's controversial that you told him that when you yell, it's never his fault?
12:14 Speaker 07 Well, I think, you know, it's easy to say on the surface, but like, it was his fault. Had he not said that, you wouldn't have yelled. Again, I think that's, you know, a very powerless way to view ourselves as adults. But separately, I just, I can't imagine any of us want the next generation to think that other people are at fault for our bad behavior and our kind of reactive moments. Right? And how we explain our emotional outbursts has a massive impact on how our kids think about their own. I know a million adults are like, when does my kid take responsibility and have accountability? And I think we a little bit have to look in the mirror and say, like, am I doing that? Am I doing that? I'm the adult here. I want my seven-year-old to take responsibility for their behavior.
12:58 Speaker 07 But when I yell at my kid, do I model accountability? Do I model responsibility? Right? So I think that really matters.
13:06 Manoush Zomorodi? In a minute, applying Dr. Becky's approach to repairing the relationship between a parent and their adult child. She says it's never too late. I'm Manoush Zomorodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. We'll be right back.
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14:59 Manoush Zomorodi? It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zamirodi. On the show today, relationship repair. We were just talking to clinical psychologist and parenting expert Becky Kennedy, who also just goes by Dr. Becky to her millions of followers on social media. She was telling us about a moment when she felt like a bad parent herself.
15:24 Speaker 07 Let's go back to that moment. So my son is in his room. I'm in the kitchen. I finally caught myself from the abyss. And my son, if I don't repair, he has to explain the event to himself. He has to do that so he can get back to feeling safe. And so what happens when I go repair? First of all, I say, I yelled at you earlier, and that probably felt scary. So the first thing my son can say to himself is, I was right about that.
15:53 Speaker 07 And then I take responsibility, right? It's never okay to yell. And I'm really working on managing my feelings so they don't come out in that way. And then what my kid can say to themselves, "It's not my fault when people around me act out."
16:13 Manoush Zomorodi? Right, right.
16:16 Speaker 07 "That is not a reflection of my worth or my goodness. That is a reflection of a struggle they are having." And that matters. That really matters. Town the line. A 15-second intervention can have a lifelong impact. I've replaced my child's story of self-blame with a story of self-trust and safety and connection. I mean, what a massive upgrade. What might the impact be? What might that look like in adulthood? My adult child won't spiral in self-blame when they make a mistake
16:58 Speaker 07 and won't take on blame for someone else's mistake. My adult child will know how to take responsibility for their behavior because you've modeled how to take responsibility for yours. Preparing with a child today sets the stage for these critical adult relationship patterns. Plus, it gets better. Now that I've reconnected with my son, I can do something really impactful. I can teach him a skill he didn't have in the first place, which is how kids actually change their behavior.
17:33 Manoush Zomorodi? Okay, so you're not gonna let it slide because your son was quite rude, ungrateful for dinner. So after you acknowledge your role with the yelling, how do you go back and correct that behavior?
17:46 Speaker 07 Right, it's like, okay, but he did say this thing to you. Like, it's just okay. It's not that it's just okay. As adults, right? Anyone, you can only take responsibility for your own behavior. And when you do, you actually make room for someone else to take responsibility for theirs. There are many times I repair with my kids, and they will say, "Yeah, I could have said that in a different way." Not right in the moment, but a few minutes later.
18:11 Manoush Zomorodi? Yeah.
18:11 Speaker 07 Right? Like, it really does happen. But let's say it doesn't, because I'm a pragmatist. Sometimes it doesn't. Let's be real. So I always tell parents, wait 24 hours after your repair. You could say something like this to your kid. Hey, you know what I'm thinking about? Like, sometimes when I make dinner, you're gonna like it. And sometimes you're not. And there's just so many ways you can tell someone that you're not loving the food you have. And I just know we can think of better ways than disgusting. You know, I wonder if you can even think of another way you can say that.
18:42 Manoush Zomorodi? Hmm.
18:43 Speaker 07 I actually did say that to my son. And he literally said to me to my face, he goes, could I say not my favorite?
18:48 Manoush Zomorodi? Ooh.
18:48 Speaker 07 And I was like, you know, yeah.
18:50 Manoush Zomorodi? Good one.
18:50 Speaker 07 Totally. Or maybe it's a different situation where I say, look, you know, yesterday, maybe internally, I know I apologize for freaking out at my kids in the morning. And then 24 hours later, I say, you know, I'm thinking about mornings have just been chaotic. And like, I'm working on staying calm. But I'm also just thinking, you and I are really on the same team here.
19:10 Manoush Zomorodi? Yeah.
19:10 Speaker 07 Like, we both want mornings to be smoother.
19:13 Manoush Zomorodi? Why is that reframing important?
19:16 Speaker 07 Yes. So what I always say, like, there's two ways of talking to anybody when you're in conflict. You're either on one side of the table and you're looking at them as the problem. Or we're on the same side of the table, and together we are gazing at the other side of the table at the problem. It's either me against you, you're the problem, or me and you against a problem. And until we're in the second framework, we should literally never talk to anybody about any conflict. So when I say to my son, let's say, hey, I'm sure you don't want the mornings to feel like that either. Let's come up with some ideas that can make the mornings a little smoother and probably more fun.
19:59 Manoush Zomorodi? Mm hmm.
20:00 Speaker 07 And then all of a sudden, we can brainstorm, let's play this song, or I make a visual chart. Or, you know, we have a little race in the morning, right? And then now, instead of saying to my kid, you know, listen, if you'd have put your shoes on, you wouldn't get yelled at. I have repaired, which means I've set the stage for my kid to have confidence and positive self-talk, and not engage in self-blame and self-doubt. Plus, in a very practical way, we are literally now able to make the mornings better because we've reconnected. Like, everybody wins.
20:35 Manoush Zomorodi? You're talking about being very vulnerable as a parent in front of your child, which to me, I'm Gen X, and I just feel like parents weren't like that. You know, why do you do it? Because I'm the parent, I'm the dad, I say so. There wasn't this vulnerability of saying, I'm having a bad day, or I shouldn't have responded that way. They just, nobody talked that way, is what it felt like. And I think you're introducing a whole different vernacular when it comes to relationships between parents and their kids.
21:09 Speaker 07 Yeah, you know, and so I have a couple of reactions to that, you know? So, one, anytime we do something new, especially cycle breaking, you know, like I'm the first person to talk about feelings in my family.
21:24 Speaker 07 It feels deeply uncomfortable. And I think we all misinterpret discomfort as a sign that we're doing something wrong, when really it's a sign that we're doing something new.
21:36 Speaker 07 So that's one thing. But the other thing, interesting, my reaction to hearing you say vulnerable, when you're like hearing a parent say to a kid like, hey, I was having a hard time, or I'm sorry for yelling. It feels, to me, I guess the word vulnerable doesn't come to mind as much as, it's gonna sound so simple, but it's just true. I feel like it's just stating what's true, you know? And we don't tell the truth all the time. We avoid the truth, or we say some version that's really, we don't even believe inside of ourselves. There's a million ways to tell the truth. I'm certainly not saying, hey, I'm sorry I yelled at you to my six-year-old son, and then saying like, let me tell you the story of my childhood and all my triggers. Like, I'm not trying to say that.
22:19 Speaker 07 But sharing a version of the truth that allows us to speak in a way, or act in a way that feels in line with what like feels right inside of us. I think that's what has caught fire to parents. That's what makes people say, you're saying things that like I inherently always felt, like it's always felt like this. I just maybe didn't have the exact tools, or script, or strategy to live it with my kids or in my life. But it, but it feels true, and it, and it feels right.
22:52 Speaker 07 So here's the point where you might have a lingering concern. Maybe you're thinking, you know, I have a feeling my kid's older than your kid.
23:01 Speaker 07 I think it's too late. Or, "I've done a lot worse than you did in the kitchen." Maybe it's too late. Well, I mean this, if you have only one takeaway from this talk, please let this be it. It is not too late. It is never too late. How do I know? Well, imagine right after this, you get a call from one of your parents. And if neither of your parents are alive, imagine finding and opening a letter you hadn't seen until that moment. Okay, walk through this with me. Here's the call.
23:37 Speaker 07 Hi, I was listening to this podcast. And, you know, it made me think that there were probably a bunch of moments in your childhood that felt bad to you.
23:53 Speaker 07 And you were right to feel that way.
23:57 Speaker 07 And those moments were way more about me and something I was struggling with than anything about you. And I don't know exactly where we go from here. And I don't expect this to take away all the conflict we've had. But if you ever want to talk to me about any of those moments, I will listen. I won't listen to have a rebuttal. I won't listen to prove or refute. I'll listen to understand. I love you.
24:33 Speaker 07 I don't know many adults who don't have a fairly visceral reaction to that exercise. I often hear, "Why am I crying?" Or, "Listen, that wouldn't change everything,
24:46 Speaker 07 but it might change some things." So if that imagined exercise had an impact on you, imagine the impact an actual repair will have on your child. See? I told you. It's never too late.
25:06 Manoush Zomorodi? That's Becky Kennedy. She's a clinical psychologist and the founder of Good Inside, a book and website for parents. You can see her full talk at ted.com.
25:24 Manoush Zomorodi? So the parent-child relationship is a pretty common one. But the next is universal and far more nebulous. It's our relationship with death.
25:37 Speaker 02 Absolutely. I think our relationship to death is rotten at its core.
25:43 Manoush Zomorodi? This is Ilua Arthur.
25:45 Speaker 02 I think it's fear at the root. We fear the unknown, not knowing what happens after we die, not knowing why we're here, not knowing why we die, not knowing why life, why depression, why heartache. Often, people fear the process of dying. They fear being in pain or being uncomfortable. We fear suffering. And I think also the fear of not being the center of the story anymore is very disquieting. It's uncomfortable. It makes us feel really small and powerless. And that's not nice to think about.
26:16 Manoush Zomorodi? Ilua is a death doula. She provides non-medical support for people at the end of their lives and for their friends and families, which can mean anything from counseling to legal advice. It's 100% not the kind of job that Ilua can just mention to people casually.
26:37 Speaker 02 Either they say they wish that they knew that we existed when somebody in their life died, their mother, father, brother, sister, somebody. Or they start telling me about their ideas and theories about the afterlife because they think I might know somehow. Or most often, it's duh, like a birth doula? And I'm like, yes, but for the other side. And they say, oh, and I watch the eyes pop open.
27:00 Manoush Zomorodi? Ilua can give the impression that she's always been a death doula, that it's something she was called to early in life, but...
27:08 Speaker 03 That wasn't always the case. I came to this work by serendipity, by circumstance, but mostly by necessity.
27:15 Manoush Zomorodi? Here's Ilua Arthur on the TED stage.
27:18 Speaker 03 A little over 10 years ago, I was practicing law at the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles. And I grew depressed. Not like, oh, my god, I'm so depressed, but like, for real depressed. Like, can't get out of bed depressed, can't shower depressed, can't find hope. Can't find a smile but can't really find joy type of depressed. I took a medical leave of absence, so I went to Cuba. And I met a woman there, a fellow traveler on the bus who had uterine cancer. We spent the 14-hour bus ride talking about her life and also her death. And it was a highly illuminating conversation. I heard firsthand how hard it was for her to even be able to talk about her fears around mortality and her disease, because people censored their own discomfort with mortality rather than make
28:03 Speaker 03 space for her. I took the invitation, however, to think about my mortality and looked at my life from the perspective of my death for the very first time, and it was grim. I did not like what I saw. I noticed then that I had to live life on my own terms, because I was the only one who was going to have to contend with all the choices that I'd made at my death.
28:27 Manoush Zomorodi? So you had what sounds like really a life-changing conversation with this woman. It made you think about your own mortality in a way that you had never before. And then something awful happened. Not long after that bus trip, six months later, my brother-in-law was diagnosed with stage four Burkitt's lymphoma. But I also believed that he would get better, because I couldn't imagine a world where he wouldn't. You know, it was just, it seemed impossible that Peter would die. He was young, he was otherwise healthy, he was a dad, he was one of my close friends. There was no way, he's my sister's husband, no way, of course he's gonna live, that's just how it goes.
29:11 Manoush Zomorodi? And then, four months into his treatment, I do remember distinctly the moment that I found out that he, that they weren't gonna be able to cure him. So I moved out to New York, where he and my sister and my niece were, and supported him through the end of his life, along with everybody else, his community that was there. And during that time is where I felt a strong need for the work that I currently do, but couldn't find anybody, couldn't, couldn't identify a person who could do the job that I needed them to do.
29:42 Manoush Zomorodi? So, but you, you learned a lot in terms of what people need during those tough months? I did. Most importantly,
29:53 Speaker 02 I think I learned how isolating it is. And there weren't people that we could really talk to about what was happening. Professionally, at least, it was like, where do we lay all these cares down? Who can be there? Who can hold my grief and my anger and my frustration and all of my questions? How do we talk to my niece who's four about dying? You know, what are we supposed to say? How do I bring up that he needs to update his will? Or what he wants done with his body? Or, you know, what's the right time to start talking to his parents about the fact that he doesn't want to be buried or might not want the Catholic burial that they want for him? You know what I mean?
30:35 Manoush Zomorodi? So many questions. So how did you decide that that person that your family needed but couldn't find? How did you figure out that that could be you for other people? That you wanted to be a death doula?
30:49 Speaker 02 Well, after his death, I went to an intro course on the work of a death midwife, is what it was called. And that was the first time I heard a term that felt like it could encompass what I was looking for. And I swear, I left the intro session crying and dancing and laughing and scared, just terrified, but being like, I think this might be something. And it was something. It is something.
31:13 Manoush Zomorodi? The thing for you.
31:15 Speaker 02 It's my something.
31:16 Manoush Zomorodi? This is when Elua dove deep into death care. She took classes, read books, met professionals. And she quickly found that the image many people have of what happens when someone dies is just not true. For example, funerals.
31:33 Speaker 02 I thought when somebody dies, they come to take the body away. And then the next time you see it, it's laying in a casket with its arms crossed at its chest.
31:39 Manoush Zomorodi? The body has been embalmed, pumped full of preservatives.
31:43 Speaker 02 And they look kind of gray and not at all like themselves, but that's supposed to be them.
31:46 Manoush Zomorodi? Stories are shared. Religious texts are read.
31:50 Speaker 02 There's a service that is often very stiff. And then they Bury them and then they put a headstone on it and then that's it.
31:56 Manoush Zomorodi? I mean, it's what we've seen in basically every movie or TV show.
32:00 Speaker 02 Exactly. Turns out that's not it. You can keep bodies at home after somebody dies. They can be cared for at home. You can invite people over to the house. You can decorate caskets. You can wash bodies yourself. You can care for bodies in the way that feels best for you.
32:17 Manoush Zomorodi? Ilua, since she was a lawyer, also wanted answers to some of the more practical questions. Like, what do you do with someone's car after they've died?
32:25 Speaker 02 Turns out, it's an entire process that you don't want to do when you're not grieving, let alone when you are grieving. It's just such a pain in the butt.
32:32 Manoush Zomorodi? She got to know people in death-adjacent fields, like estate planning attorneys, life insurance agents.
32:38 Speaker 02 I met with some EMTs. I sat with hospice nurses. I took a job at a hospice.
32:43 Manoush Zomorodi? But wait, this is well, way in beyond the initial course you took, right?
32:47 Speaker 02 Yes, yes, yes, yes.
32:48 Manoush Zomorodi? OK.
32:49 Speaker 02 This is me just being hungry and nosey. And I wanted to get closer to the mystery and found that every step that I took opened up more mysteries. And that titillated me. That excited me.
33:03 Manoush Zomorodi? In a minute, Ilua Arthur shares how one client on the verge of death learned to enjoy the simplest pleasures of life. On the show today, relationship repair. I'm Anush Zamirodi, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR. We'll be right back.
33:32 Speaker 02 Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.
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35:02 Manoush Zomorodi? It's the TED Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Manoush Zomorodi. On the show today, relationship repair. And we were just talking to death doula, Elua Arthur, about how we all need to mend our own relationship with the inevitable.
35:21 Speaker 03 I sit deep in the trench with folks as they prepare for death. There's no fixing or saving anything because there's no fixing or saving grief or death. It just is. I meet people where they are at. My goal is to help them answer the question, what must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully, holding both at the same time?
35:46 Speaker 03 I used to think dying people had it all figured out, though. I used to think that they'd lay there with their hands like this, because we all know this is like universal dying person pose. So they'd lay there with their hands like this, and there'd be a A little glimmer in their eye, they'd be like, oh, yes, finally, it all makes sense. Turns out, it's not like that at all. It doesn't look like that. Hollywood has lied to us, you know that already, right? Cinderella was unconscionable, but this is just flagrant. It's not like that at all. It's way too much work to be doing while you're dying. So it doesn't look like that. There's no secret. There's nothing magical you'll find out then. This is it. There's nothing to figure out, no big secret at all. Many of my clients also reach the end of their lives wishing that they had more time. But I'm always curious, more time for what? What else would they do with the time that they had? It's rarely to go see Machu Picchu, okay? I'll tell you that.
36:32 Manoush Zomorodi? In your talk, you tell a story about a client who you feel kind of represents a lot of the struggles that you often see people facing. Do you mind sharing that now? Yeah, yeah. This client, when she came to me, she had practically everything else checked off the list. She had her end of life plan complete. She just was looking for anything else that she needed to do. And what became clear was that she was still trying to figure out what her time on earth had been for. She'd had a great career. She'd had children. A big thing that came up during the conversation was a bit of a judgment of herself, that her children hadn't been the center of her life
37:16 Manoush Zomorodi? and that they weren't everything for her. She thought that her purpose, somehow she'd been wrapped up in her kids, and for her it wasn't, and so that caused a lot of confusion. And she felt as a bit of an outsider to a lot of mothers that she knew. But when it came right down to it, she became clear that her purpose wasn't wrapped up in her children or her work at all, but the fact that she was alive, that she had a chance to be here for the time that she was here and to engage with food and other humans and laughter and sunshine, which was, I remember chatting about this with my therapist, who was like, "I'll bet a lot of people don't ever say that they don't think that their kids are the purpose of their lives." And I thought, "Oh, that is so controversial."
38:02 Manoush Zomorodi? "So juicy, so salacious. We can't say things like that." Can't even think it. Can't think it. But for many, I think it's the truth. And we deny it until we're laying on the deathbed and we're thinking, "Wow, did I wrap myself all up in something that was not true for me?"
38:21 Speaker 03 While she was healthy, it was about the next career milestone of what's happening with her. The kids next door, the next trip. When she was sick, more of the same. Next doctor's appointment, next scan, next medication. It was always out there. She was always, always looking out there. But death was coming to remind her that she had no more out there. That it was always only right here. Where there is nothing at all to do. But simply to be.
38:45 Speaker 03 We zoomed out on her life to look at what she enjoyed. To see where she placed value. Because from there, we can figure out where we place meaning. It was about the little things. Her hands in the soil. Her garden. Building a fire. Reading books. And food. She loved to eat. But she had dieted most of her adult life. Does that sound at all familiar to anybody? Okay, if it does, this is for you, okay? If you take nothing away, hear this. You are going to die, so please eat the cake. Eat the cake. Order the dessert, eat the french fries, eat the brownies. Eat everything you want to, just eat it. Because you're gonna die. One day, you won't be able to anymore. At this point in her disease process, chemotherapy had ravaged her taste buds.
39:31 Speaker 03 So she had to rely on her sense of smell to get pleasure out of eating. And she ate. She did it as much as she could because she knew she wouldn't be able to for much longer. She ate as much as cancer would allow. And when her body could no longer process food, we placed her favorite passion fruit souffle right on her lip. And she would lick it and smile.
39:52 Speaker 03 She lived more in the last eight months or so of her life, with the help of hospice, than she had before. She was finally present at home in her body. Delighting in the richness of the sensory experience we have by virtue of these fantastical bodies that we will die in. These bodies that we will die in.
40:15 Manoush Zomorodi? Are you actually there with the person and the family when they die?
40:22 Speaker 02 It depends on what the client wants for themselves. Sometimes they want somebody there. Sometimes the circle of support really needs somebody there. But at the baseline, I trust my clients in their innate capacity to die. And the people that care for them in their capacity to care for their dying. And so I'm there when somebody requests it. But aside from that, I'll just sleep with the wringer on in case they need. And most of the time, they just need a question answered, like, is this okay? Or, heartbreakingly, one mother called once and asked if it was okay if she got into bed with her daughter, who I think was in her 40s, who was dying. And of course, the answer is yes, hold her. You know, this can be the last time, hold her, hold her.
41:10 Manoush Zomorodi? You know, I just hesitated when I asked you that question. I was gonna say, how many people have you been with who have passed on? And then I was like, no, just say it, say the word, say died.
41:22 Speaker 02 Yes, Manoush.
41:24 Manoush Zomorodi? It's hard.
41:25 Speaker 02 A plus, it's so hard.
41:27 Manoush Zomorodi? Why though?
41:28 Speaker 02 I mean, they teach us not to.
41:29 Manoush Zomorodi? It's a thing, you live, you get born, and then you die.
41:33 Speaker 02 Just like that, in fact.
41:35 Manoush Zomorodi? Yes.
41:36 Speaker 02 It's a fact.
41:37 Manoush Zomorodi? We've been on a bit of a quest in my family to reclaim the word. And then the other day, my daughter and I were talking about composting. And I just came out and said it, I was like, this is what I want you to do with my body when I die. And she looked so shocked at me. And I was like, am I, like, hurting her psychically? Is she gonna be talking about this moment with her therapist 20 years from now? Or am I just starting to open a conversation that we should all be having? And I'm not, I'm still not sure, what do you think?
42:10 Speaker 02 How old is she?
42:11 Manoush Zomorodi? She's 13.
42:13 Speaker 02 Okay, well, I think that, well, first of all, A plus for your daughter for saying something.
42:19 Manoush Zomorodi? Thank you.
42:19 Speaker 02 No, I don't think that that's gonna be a moment that she's gonna have to talk about in therapy later, although I don't know your daughter's constitution. But I think that it's important. I think that when we hide how we feel about death and dying from children, it reinforces death phobia and it further pushes it into the closet. I'd suggest that you also spend some time talking to her generally about her thoughts about death and dying. Have grandparents died, did we make space for grief? Who in her life has died? You know, let's, let's open the conversation to make space for death overall.
42:52 Manoush Zomorodi? I mean, this sounds like something all of us have to do. Let's say you're not quite ready to commit to taking a course, or you're not at the point where you need to hire someone like you, or you can't hire someone like you. What can we do?
43:09 Speaker 02 There's so much. There's so much we can do. Building a relationship with death is a lifelong process. We just created a new practice where every day you get a question, which is based on a lot of the questions that I notice I use when people are dying as I support them in reconciling their lives, their legacies, their loves, their relationships with their bodies and themselves and the people in their lives, et cetera. It's like, when do you feel most at home in your body?
43:33 Manoush Zomorodi? Oh.
43:34 Speaker 02 Because that's something we want to cultivate as people are dying, because dying is a process of coming home into the body. My favorite question, what must I do to be at peace with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully? Questions like, your most delightful experience of the senses? To see if we can cultivate more of that. We talk about aging a bit, but we're not hitting anybody over the head with death. Like, let's take it easy. Let's ease into the warm bath and see what that feels like. And learn a lot about themselves in the process.
44:08 Manoush Zomorodi? So if we had to sum up one idea for folks listening about how to change their relationship to death, it sounds like you would say, think about it. Allow yourself to think about it.
44:20 Speaker 02 And you're safe to think about it. And if you need some additional support, holler at a death doula.
44:29 Manoush Zomorodi? That's Elua Arthur. She's a death doula and founder of Going with Grace, a company that provides end-of-life planning, training, and support. You can see her full talk at ted.com.
44:44 Manoush Zomorodi? On the show today, relationship repair. And we wanted to make sure we included a look at a relationship that's been in trouble for a while now and that needs urgent fixing. It's our relationship with our planet. Now, before you think, oh, another climate doom story. This next speaker believes that pairing Indigenous people with lands that need protecting is one easy and proven way to start. Valerie Cottoir is Director of the Indigenous Leadership Initiative. Here she is on the TED stage in 2022.
45:21 Speaker 03 Que, I'm from the Inuit community of Mistuyat, located in Pecquagami, in the heart of what is now known as Quebec. I'm here with you tonight to leave you with hope. We need it now more than ever. Our home, our shared beautiful mother, our planet is experiencing ecological turmoil. We humans are transforming it to a point where we are risking the survival of millions of species. I have seen firsthand the devastating impact of climate change and the loss of biodiversity in my homeland of Mississinian and all across what is now known as Canada.
46:03 Speaker 03 But I've also seen something else, something that gives me hope. It's not a technology from a lab. It's not a policy made in Ottawa or DC. It is the fundamental understanding that is expressed by our elders and knowledge keepers this way. If we take care of the land, the land takes care of us. This is about a relationship, a mutual love story. It's not an accident that 80% of the world's remaining biodiversity are located on lands managed and loved by Indigenous peoples. We have been in relationships with the plants and animals of our territories and waters for millennia.
46:47 Speaker 03 Surely, we have values, insights, strategies, and knowledge to offer to the rest of the global community with respect to how to be a part of and care for our environment. This knowledge is essential right now. It can help people and the land heal from ecological crises and colonization. It can help restore the planet, and it can help save us all. What does it look like? It looks like Indigenous Guardians. So you've heard of the Guardians of the Galaxy? Well, these Guardians are doing a much more important job right here on Earth, just without the soundtrack.
47:30 Speaker 03 Guardians are trained experts who work on behalf of their Indigenous nations. They monitor water quality, care for Indigenous protected and conserved areas, conduct research on climate impacts, and help restore species like caribou, salmon, and moose. Their work is rooted in Indigenous and Western sciences, and their training includes everything from GIS mapping to spending time with elders and knowledge keepers. We need this now more than ever. Time and again, I've heard people say that being a Guardian has changed their lives. I think of the young Jarrett Kwak, a young man from the Taltan First Nation in what is now known as British Columbia. Jarrett used to be a heavy equipment operator
48:15 Speaker 03 working on job sites far from his community. He faced racism from non-Indigenous peoples, and unfortunately, he struggled with addictions. So when a job opened up with the Taltan Wildlife Guardians, he decided to take it. He said, "Being a Guardian helped get me through the tough times in my life. Being connected to the land and talking with elders helped me overcome my addictions. And at the end of the day, I could walk away with the pride of being First Nations." As a person who's been a witness to and felt the intergenerational trauma from the colonial experience,
48:57 Speaker 03 I've found no better strategy to healing than nurturing our relationship with our place. The land heals, and I wish that experience for anyone who's experienced and lives with trauma. Researchers have documented the impacts of Guardian programs. People's health improves on the land because they're on the land, because they're physically active, and because they're happy. And Guardianship isn't just good for Guardians. It's good for everyone, because the land is taking care of Guardians, and Guardians are taking care of the land. Many work in the boreal forest, which stretches from Alaska to Newfoundland.
49:42 Speaker 03 It is one of the largest intact forests left on the planet. Having guardians on the ground will help us sustain so many species like caribou, salmon, moose, wolverine, lynx, songbirds, medicinal plants, and countless other species, species that are unfortunately threatened in much of the rest of the world. The Caskadeni in northern British Columbia are planning to create a protected area the size of Switzerland. And in northern Manitoba, four Dene and Cree nations are coming together to protect the Seal River watershed. It will be nearly five times the size of Yellowstone National Park.
50:21 Speaker 03 That protected area in the Seal River watershed I mentioned, it holds 1.7 billion tonnes of carbon, equivalent to eight years' worth of greenhouse gas emissions in Canada alone. Protecting the watershed will help keep that carbon in place. These are the kind of lands that guardians are caring for. As Gloria Enzo, a Nihtni Dene guardian from the Northwest Territories, says, "We are sustaining our traditional territories not only for us, but for the whole world." By honoring and respecting Indigenous-led approaches to the land, we can create a better future for all.
51:04 Speaker 03 In fact, I'd like to ask you to join Indigenous peoples. There is so much that we can do together. Specifically, study the history of Indigenous nations with traditional territories in the places where you live and work. Create space for Indigenous voices and uplift them. Hold up our communities and respect our knowledge. Make sure that you are using your political voices and voting for leaders who support this vision. Because Indigenous Guardians can ensure that we all have the future on this planet
51:46 Speaker 03 that we deserve and want, so that we can all continue to have an evolving love story with our lands, with our waters that we call home. If we take care of the land, the land will take care of us.
52:02 Manoush Zomorodi? Valerie Quatroy is director of the Indigenous Leadership Initiative. You can see her full talk at ted.com. Thank you so much for listening to our episode, Relationship Repair. It was produced by Matthew Cloutier, James Delahoussaye, and Harsha Nahada. It was edited by Sanaz Meshkhanpour and me. Our production staff at NPR also includes Rachel Faulkner White, Katie Monteleone, Fiona Guerin, and Chloe Weiner. Our audio engineers were Gilly Moon, Ted Mibane, and Robert Rodriguez. Our theme music was written by Ramtin Arablouei. Our partners at TED are Chris Anderson, Michelle Quint, Alejandra Salazar, and Daniela Balarezo.
52:44 Manoush Zomorodi? I'm Manoush Zamirodi, and you've been listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.
52:50 Speaker 00 Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.
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