The World’s Fastest Growing Defense Company, OpenAI’s Code Red, Google Strikes Back | Diet TBPN

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  Why is no one talking about Armin Popper?

• 0:06John Coogan?

  He's the CEO of Rheinmetall and they've been on an absolute tear. We're of course going to get to Code Red. We're going to talk about OpenAI, but we talk about OpenAI every day, basically. And I thought it'd be interesting to meet the CEO behind the world's fastest growing defense company. It's on the cover of the business section of the Wall Street Journal.

• 0:24Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 0:24John Coogan?

  When I think high growth defense companies, I usually think Anduril or Saronic, or there are so many other companies that are growing very fast in defense tech. Rheinmetall has been on an absolute tear. They're now basically the same size as Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics. You can see the gun that they make in that picture. They make massive cannons. They make artillery shells. They've been very important to the Ukraine war. So in the last three years, they've been on an absolute tear. They've gone from roughly $5 billion market cap three years ago to $80 billion in market cap. We've got to ring the gong. We've got to warm up the gong. Bring the gong.

• 1:05John Coogan?

  $80 billion market cap. They've been on a tear, but there's been basically three key drivers to the growth, to the story. First, they had a head start. This company, they actually started over a century ago. 1889, can you believe that? They spend their first 25 years basically just stacking up ammo for the German Empire. This obviously comes to a head in 1914, when World War I breaks out. At the time, the company was one of the largest arms manufacturers. Like they were, they were pretty, pretty big after 25 years of just stockpiling ammo, growing, growing, growing as a defense company. World War, World War I breaks out, but then after the war, they got to pivot. They got to pivot because the Treaty of Versailles forces them to switch to non-military products. They say, hey, you got to build. Make some cars.

• 1:50John Coogan?

  Make some trains. They get fixated on trains and also typewriters.

• 1:54Jordi Hays?

  Not the first.

• 1:55John Coogan?

  Not the first dudes to get fixated on some trains.

• 1:58Jordi Hays?

  Happens to the best of them.

• 1:59John Coogan?

  But they but they have a good run. They stay in business. They keep making trains, locomotives particularly. You know, they're making big stuff. And then 20 years later, it's the mid 30s, 20, it's 1935 around there. They are, they're starting to get back into weapons and ammo production. They can't stay away. Uh oh. Who are they rearming? The Wehrmacht. And World War II, obviously, it's massive for production. They're printing, they're making lots of weapons. But by the end of the war, their facilities have basically been destroyed by Ares. They need to rebuild the company from scratch. So after the Second War, they get banned from making weapons again until 1950.

• 2:40Jordi Hays?

  Keeps happening.

• 2:41John Coogan?

  And so they have to go back to making typewriters. They keep getting relegated to typewriters. You guys, no more guns.

• 2:48Jordi Hays?

  That's enough.

• 2:48John Coogan?

  You have to make some typewriters. And so they get back into defense tech in the 50s, 60s. The German Armed Forces gets reestablished in 1956. And by 1979, Ryan Matal is making 120 millimeter guns that go on Leopard tanks that you've probably seen in that image roughly. And so there's lots of M and A, lots of diversification over the next few decades. They expand into automotive and electronics. And that kind of brings us to the second act of the story, which is the Ukraine war. Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022. Ryan Matal was around 5.5 billion market cap then. And three days later, Olaf

• 3:26John Coogan?

  Scholz, the Chancellor of Germany, Germany, gives what's known as the Zeitenwende speech, which is literally translates to turning point. So he says, this is a turning point. Europe has been invaded. We now have a foreign army on European soil, even though Ukraine's not part of NATO, it feels like, you know, Russia is expanding. If they keep, if they just keep going in the same direction, they're eventually going to be in our hometown. So we got to do something about it. And what does he propose? He doesn't just say, hey, this is a big deal. He says, no, we're actually going to invest $100 billion, like off balance sheet from some fund into defense tech. We're going to spend more money. And then, of course, there's a whole bunch of other initiatives that happen.

• 4:06John Coogan?

  The Trump negotiations around how much Europe should pay as a portion of GDP on on defense, but basically it's this major turning point where Europe goes from spending, you know, sustainment levels. Okay, we're going to spend this much every year to we are going to double or triple or, you know, exponentially grow our spending and it's all going to be net new. So you can go and fight for it. And that's what Ryan Matal does. So revenues grown 50% since 2022. They're guiding for sales of $58 billion and an operating margin of more than 20% by 2030. So they have like almost AI growth level numbers of everything. It feels very similar where there's a, there's a structural change

• 4:48John Coogan?

  in the way their business is going to work. Same thing as Eli Lilly, same story. There's a couple of these stocks where there's now sort of a mega trend and they are in position to capture a ton of value as long as they can execute. The, the big question is, you know, what winds up happening? But the third leg of the stool, the third important piece in this story is the current CEO, the man no one is talking about until today, Armin Papager. He's been called a white haired Goliath. I love that. CNN randomly threw that.

• 5:19Jordi Hays?

  Can we pull up a picture?

• 5:20John Coogan?

  Just randomly threw that in.

• 5:21Jordi Hays?

  There he is.

• 5:22John Coogan?

  There's some other photos. And last year, he was targeted in an assassination plot by the Russians.

• 5:29Jordi Hays?

  What?

• 5:29John Coogan?

  So the CNN reported that Russia had made a series of plans to assassinate several defense industry executives all across Europe who were supporting Ukraine's war efforts. Earlier this year, Armin Papager opened a new factory that will allow his company to produce more of an essential caliber of artillery shell than the entire US defense industry combined. Ryan Matal is now the world's fastest growing large defense company and a key player in Europe's quest to rearm. Ryan Matal's stock is up 15x since Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, giving a market cap of 80 billion, roughly on par with US rivals. So let's head over to red alert territory.

• 6:12Jordi Hays?

  Gavin Baker responding to the reporting says October, 1.4 trillion in spending commitments.

• 6:20Jordi Hays?

  November, rough vibes, and December, code red. Life comes at you fast. It certainly has felt, it certainly has felt fast.

• 6:29John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 6:30Jordi Hays?

  Ever since that fateful podcast.

• 6:33John Coogan?

  Yes, that was a crazy turning point.

• 6:36Jordi Hays?

  Although there was, there was plenty of conversation, you know, prior to that around.

• 6:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:41Jordi Hays?

  Around of what the trajectory of OpenAI would actually look like.

• 6:46John Coogan?

  The, the code red, like leak from this, the, the information reported, it was clearly like some sort of all hands that Sam Altman was, you know, ho, ho, holding a town hall with the rest of the OpenAI team. And he's kind of just saying like, lock in. That's what he should have said. Never say code red. You gotta say, lock in, brothers. Lock in. Say, we're, we're taking that hill. We're storming their fortress. We will grind Google Gemini team into paste with, and we will crush our enemies. We will see them driven before us.

• 7:16Jordi Hays?

  Hospitals learned this lesson.

• 7:18John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 7:18Jordi Hays?

  They used to say code red.

• 7:19John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 7:19Jordi Hays?

  That meant there was a fire.

• 7:21John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 7:21Jordi Hays?

  In the hospital, uh, and that you would probably want to figure out a way to get out.

• 7:26John Coogan?

  Yes. I think if you're, if you're, if you're a CEO who's under incredible scrutiny, like you're Sam Altman, and you have beat reporters at this point who are texting your employees every single day, hey, what's going on? What's on the ground? Give me a quote. What happened?

• 7:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So to give people, to give people context, a beat reporter might reach out to, they will actually adopt the strategy of just trying to wear someone down. Or they will send hundreds of messages to individual people on, on the team, just over and over and over relentless. Like email, cell phone, Instagram DM, LinkedIn, just like constantly, constantly, constantly flooding. Hoping that at some point this person just says like, fine, like I'll, I'll, I'll chat with you.

• 8:08John Coogan?

  The name beat reporter comes from them trying to beat you down. That's the whole point.

• 8:12Jordi Hays?

  Is that true?

• 8:13John Coogan?

  That's where it comes from.

• 8:16Jordi Hays?

  You're messing with me?

• 8:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:18Jordi Hays?

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 8:20John Coogan?

  I have no idea, but I like the idea of it's like they just try and beat down your employees.

• 8:24Jordi Hays?

  It's like that.

• 8:25John Coogan?

  They're trying to beat you down. There is some praise for OpenAI on the timeline, which we should get to from none other than Blake Robbins. Blake says, "OpenAI is operating on a different level." Play that sound cue, Jordy.

• 8:40John Coogan?

  "The amount they have shipped in the past few weeks and months is incredible. Feels like we are witnessing a generational run." This was on October 6.

• 8:48Jordi Hays?

  Okay, this was on October 6. Sora was, I think, number one in the charts at that point.

• 8:53John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 8:53Jordi Hays?

  It's now 21.

• 8:55John Coogan?

  Yes. "The scattershot nature raises questions about the company's discipline and ability to support these disparate initiatives. Is OpenAI a frontier research lab, a social network operator, a commerce engine, a hardware company? Because it's hard to do all of that well."

• 9:12Jordi Hays?

  If you go back to the BG2 interview, or just the BG interview, Sam's answer to the question of how are you going to support the 1.4 trillion of commitments was, "We're automating science and we're making, and we're making like a consumer electronics." And the reason that that, to me, that was kind of like a concerning answer because Google has been doing those things for years.

• 9:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, but they've earned the right because they have 25 years.

• 9:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they're funding it with massive cash flow.

• 9:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, hundreds of billions of dollars of revenue and so much cash. I have a plan. If Sam Altman really wants to set the record straight, everyone's saying, "Code Red, oh, Code Red, it's so bad." He needs to come out with a statement, "We're going to Baja Blast Gemini out of the App Store."

• 10:03John Coogan?

  If he says, "Our plan is to Baja Blast Gemini and Anthropic into the minor leagues of AI research," I think he just wins completely. Let's actually play this clip from Ashley Vance here.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So to speak to Gemini specifically, you know, it's a pretty good model. And I think... One thing we do is try to build consensus. You know, the benchmarks only tell you so much. And just looking purely at the benchmarks, you know, we actually felt quite confident. You know, we have models internally that perform at the level of Gemini three, and we're pretty confident that we will release them soon and we can release successor models that are even better. But yeah, again, kind of the benchmarks only tell you so much. And I, you know, I, I think everyone probes the, the models in their own way. There, there is this math problem I like to give the models.

• 11:02John Coogan?

  This is funny.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  I, I think so far, none of them has quite cracked it, even the thinking models. So, yeah, I'll wait for that.

• 11:10John Coogan?

  Is this, is this like a secret math problem?

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, no. Well, if I announce it here, maybe it gets trained on.

• 11:15John Coogan?

  It's gonna get so saturated.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  To speak to Gemini three specifically, you know, it's a pretty good model. And I think.

• 11:22John Coogan?

  Let's read what Prins is saying here. So new, new interview with Mark Chen from OpenAI. Ashley Vance, the interviewer, has apparently been spending a lot of time at OpenAI, including sitting in on meetings. He seems to be writing a book and he seems to think that OpenAI has made some huge advance in pre-training. Pre-training seems like this area where it seems like you've figured something out, you're excited about it, you think this is going to be a major advance. Mark doesn't spill the beans, though. He says, we think there's a lot of room in pre-training. A lot of people say scaling dead is dead. We don't think so at all. Big question about what that means. Is that scaling RL? Is that scaling dollars in? Is it, is it, oh yeah, if you, if you, if you invest a hundred trillion dollars, you can give it one more IQ point. It's like, yeah, that would be an example of like scaling holding, but like no one's gonna make that trade off.

• 12:05Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so what, what Sam said in the internal Slack memo is he was directing more employees to focus on improving features of ChatGPT, such as personalizing the chatbot for more than 800 million people. And, and again, we, we've seen them like launch more functionality around this. I, I think the theory is that this could be a very like, make the product really, really sticky. Whether or not that's true generally is still unclear. It's certainly, people have, have been very loyal to 4O. Other key priorities covered by the code red include image gen, the image generating AI that allows users to create variety of photos.

• 12:46John Coogan?

  Fundamentally, what?

• 12:48John Coogan?

  L L Ms are doing all what these chatbots are doing is they're they're basically instantiating full webpages. They should be able to instantiate anything that you could possibly land on, whether it's a video, an image, a blog post with images embedded. Like it should be able to like not just understand everything and give you the answer, but it should be able to contextualize that answer in any format. Should they say, hey, we're just going to use Nano Banana, which is like a crazy thing, but you know, there is a world where they say like, hey, yeah, like, we're not going to focus on that. OpenAI has has a stronghold on the consumer market to the point where if they swapped out the underlying model, they would still accrue tons of the value because people don't really know what model

• 13:32John Coogan?

  is which. Like, I think the average user doesn't do it. But first, Tyler has a

• 13:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think that especially makes sense in the context of images and video because they're just so expensive. Like, I think a Nano Banana Pro image is like, I think it's like 10 cents.

• 13:46John Coogan?

  No way.

• 13:47Speaker 03

  Or, okay, that might be per like a thousand or something. But it's still, it's still, they're really expensive. Videos are even more expensive. Videos are like really, really expensive.

• 13:55John Coogan?

  Oh, architects are cooked. AI is coming for you. Prepare accordingly. And you see this and it's like this AI generated image and it looks like remarkable. Like

• 14:03Jordi Hays?

  Looks like a floor plan.

• 14:04John Coogan?

  It looks like a floor plan. It looks amazing. Like, it looks like, okay, yeah, that's like, all the lines are straight, but you zoom in and it's like one of the funniest layouts ever because you realize that it's just, it's just one massive room

• 14:20John Coogan?

  three or four. Okay, so first off, okay, so you come in through the two car garage, then there's a powder room. So

• 14:26Jordi Hays?

  The mudroom.

• 14:27John Coogan?

  So, so first off, there's this mudroom lawn, mudroom and laundry with two bathtubs in it. Scroll up to the right. Okay, just go, yeah, right there. So why do you have two bathtubs next to your coat closet?

• 14:38Jordi Hays?

  In the mudroom.

• 14:39John Coogan?

  In the mudroom. And then, and also like, you can't go, normally you come out of garage, you go straight into the mudroom. But here you have to go into the main area, which is the gallery hall. And then you go from there into there. And so scroll to the left a little bit so we can see the

• 14:52Jordi Hays?

  What is the coat?

• 14:54John Coogan?

  So then you go, there's a powder room, and then there's

• 14:57Jordi Hays?

  The coat bathroom, two toilets.

• 15:00John Coogan?

  Two toilets next to each other. Remember we were touring that facility and it had two, it had two, two bathrooms right next to each other with no line next to it?

• 15:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were, we in the, in the, in the office, in the, within the crazy office that had the machine. One of the bathrooms just had, it was like, it was like meant to be a private bathroom. And it just had two toilets there. We were like, why the two toilets?

• 15:23John Coogan?

  Yeah. So it's like, so, so you come in through your main foyer, then there's a master bathroom. Then there's a coat bathroom with two more toilets. And then there's a huge walk-in closet, which isn't even directly attached to anything else. So you have to like go through this corridor to get to the rest. And so this master suite has three toilets, but then it gets better, dude, it gets better. So go over to the top right-hand side, because this is, so look at bedroom number two. It's just like off the center, then bedroom number three is there. Then there's a Jack and Jill bath, then scroll down.

• 15:59Jordi Hays?

  Wait, three, three sinks?

• 16:03John Coogan?

  Three sinks, no toilets. And then there's another bathroom, and then there's a third.

• 16:10John Coogan?

  Third bathroom.

• 16:13Jordi Hays?

  This is.

• 16:14John Coogan?

  With five sinks.

• 16:16Jordi Hays?

  This is, you might not like it, John, but this is, this is, this is architecture at its best.

• 16:22John Coogan?

  Is, is AI going to help with, you know, architectural design? Of course. Is Nano Banana going to randomly one-shot like the perfect floor plan? No, also no.

• 16:32Jordi Hays?

  This is why OpenAI is in code red. In the two weeks since the Gemini launch, ChatGPT, unique daily active users, a seven-day average are down 6%. He is sharing, to be clear, web traffic data.

• 16:47John Coogan?

  Ah, these, these traffic sources are so rough. I just feel like people use apps. Anyway, the part of the code red, of course, is that OpenAI's Sora app has fallen out of the top 20 most downloaded apps in the United States on both the App Store and Google Play. Things are, things are falling. I actually opened up Sora today. I looked at it. And there was some cool stuff happening. This is a little bit of a hot take. Like, it was not, there was still a lot of slop, which I would define as like, you know, it's a POV video of a bus driver with a bunch of cats on the bus. And it's like cute and funny or like, you know, it's a chipmunk water skiing, like that type of stuff.

• 17:26Jordi Hays?

  Is that why you were late for the gym today?

• 17:28John Coogan?

  No.

• 17:30Jordi Hays?

  So you think they have to explain the funding gap at this point? Or can we all just agree that maybe, maybe everyone got a little too excited?

• 17:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I, I feel like everyone's sort of repriced everything already with the Oracle round tripping and just this idea that, you know, some of the equity investments, like they are circular, but it's basically just like a discount on their purchases. And, you know, these things probably aren't as binding as, as we think. And so I feel like the, the OpenAI is going to blow up the economy narrative. I feel like that was really oversold. It, it should be fading, in my opinion, but I don't know.

• 18:11Jordi Hays?

  Apparently ChatGPT is also down right now. I just tested it. It's not down for me, but the chat says it's down.

• 18:19John Coogan?

  Time to Baja blast those servers back online, brother. It's time to rock. And we're gonna have to Baja blast some, some funding into this company. Because apparently there's a $270 billion funding hole. Squaring the total, it leaves OpenAI in a 270 billion, 207 billion dollar funding hole. The math doesn't work. Maybe OpenAI should release to the world, here's how the math can work. Because I haven't seen anyone state how this can actually work. Even if you get there, OpenAI does fall $207 billion short of the money. It needs to continue funding its commitments, right? So it has, in 2030, OpenAI free cash flow will be about 287 billion. That's like insane.

• 19:00John Coogan?

  If you, if you're in a situation where you have 287 billion dollars of free cash flow, like... You can't raise more debt on that. Like, I, I, I feel like math tends to work out when you go from a nonprofit to a $300 billion cash flow a year in 10 years. Like, it's just, everything just forms in front of you. Like, yes, you are building the bridge as you're driving, but like, that tends to happen when you're on that much of a tear. We should read through Ben Thompson's latest piece because he's provided a lot more context on Google, Nvidia, and OpenAI with a post called "Google, Nvidia, and OpenAI." What'd you look at that? You have Luke, "Bored on Tatooine: Called to Adventure by a Mysterious Message Born

• 19:45John Coogan?

  by R2D2," that he initially refuses, refusing refusal of the call. This is the classic hero's journey. A mentor in Obi-Wan Kenobi leads him to the threshold of leaving Tatooine and faces tests and carries the Battle Station plans to the rebels while preparing for the road back to the Death Star. He trusts the Force in his final test and, uh, and returns transformed. And when you zoom out to the original trilogy, it's simply an expanded version of this, of the story. This time, however, the ordeal is in the entire second movie, The Empire Strikes Back. The heroes of the AI story over the last three years have been two companies, OpenAI and Nvidia. The first startup is called, with the release

• 20:26John Coogan?

  of ChatGPT, to be the next great consumer tech company. The other was best known as a gaming chip company, characterized by boom and bust cycles, driven by their visionary and endlessly optimistic founder, transformed into the most essential infrastructure provider for the AI revolution. Over the last few weeks, however, both have entered the cave. They're in the cave. The cave of disillusionment and are facing their greatest ordeal. The Google empire is very much striking back. So, Google strikes back. The first Google blow was Gemini 3, which scored better than OpenAI's state-of-the-art model on a host of benchmarks, even if actual real-world usage was a bit more uneven. Gemini 3's biggest

• 21:09John Coogan?

  advantage is its sheer size and the vast amount of compute that went into creating it. This is notable because OpenAI has had difficulty creating the next generation of models beyond the GPT-4 level of size and complexity. What has carried the company is a genuine breakthrough in reasoning that produces better results in many cases, but at the cost of time and money. Ben Thompson creates aggregation theory. This idea of like, it's so important to aggregate demand in the modern internet world. It's potentially, the only thing you can do, you can't really monopolize supply. It's very hard to monopolize supply, but monopolizing demand is something that happens. And the, the strength of habits is significant.

• 21:53John Coogan?

  Like, we're watching this stuff every single day, so we can ta- ha- take the time to, okay, yeah, we should test out this other, you know, model. We should daily drive this app. But for a lot of people, if they've, if they have an app that's installed and they've been using it for a year, they're never changing.

• 22:09Jordi Hays?

  The thing that I've heard come up multiple times is people that, uh, when Gemini three launched, they switched to Gemini three on desktop.

• 22:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Jordi Hays?

  But they stayed using ChatGPT on mobile.

• 22:18John Coogan?

  And, I mean, to, to be completely transparent, like, like the, uh, the, the Gemini mobile app has, i- is really, really struggling to stay connected. There's something in the, when you fire off a prompt, it doesn't like save it locally and then cache that and then send it off, inference it and then come back. It, like, unless you keep the app open, like, it will, uh, i- i- it will just give you like a server disconnected error. Like, I've gotten like dozens of these. And, and that's gonna be a real, like, I, I think it should be something that should be, they should be able to fix in like a weekend. This is, I think, a broader point. The na- the naive approach to moats focuses on the cost of switching. In fact, however, the more important correlation to the strength of a moat

• 23:00John Coogan?

  is the number of unique purchasers to users. Okay, so that you can see where this is going with like, Nvidia has five buyers.

• 23:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 23:09John Coogan?

  And ChatGPT has a billion buyers. I argued that you could map large tech companies across two spectrums. The degree of supplier differentiation from Facebook, where the suppliers completely commoditized, just your friend on Facebook, to, uh, to Microsoft and Apple, where the suppliers are somewhat more controlled. Um, yeah, there's the-

• 23:28Jordi Hays?

  What a chart.

• 23:29John Coogan?

  The, the more, the more unique buyers of your product you have, the, the, the stronger your moat. Cause it's hard to con- cause you have to convince each one of them. He started this article recounting the hero's journey in part to make the easy leap to the Empire Strikes Back. However, there is a personal angle as well. The hero of this site has been aggregation theory and the belief that controlling demand trumps everything else. There's their Google was my ultimate protagonist. Moreover, I do believe in the innovation and velocity that comes from a founder led company like Nvidia. And I do still worry about Google's bureaucracy and disruption potential, making the company less nimble and aggressive than OpenAI. More than anything, though, I believe in the market power and defensibility of 800 million users,

• 24:14John Coogan?

  which is why I think ChatGPT still has a meaningful moat. At the same time, I understand why the market is freaking out about Google. Their structural advantage, their their structural advantages in everything from monetization to data to infrastructure to R and D is so substantial that you understand why OpenAI's founding was motivated by the fear of Google winning AI. It's very easy to imagine an outcome where Google's inputs simply matter more than anything else. One of my most important theories is being put to the ultimate test, which perhaps is why I'm so frustrated at OpenAI's avoidance of advertising. Google is now my antagonist. Google has already done this once. Search was the ultimate example of a company winning an open market with nothing more than a better product. Aggregators win new markets by being better.

• 24:59John Coogan?

  The open question now is whether one that has already reached scale can be dethroned by the overwhelming application of resources, especially when its inherent advantages are diminished by refusing to adopt an aggregator's optimal business model. I really wonder who's gonna, who's gonna take the leap first? Who is going to, uh, who's going to jump and, uh, and put ads in, in, in the, in the app first? It feels like Google should do it.

• 25:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and nobody's gonna be like, oh, what? Google is putting ads in a product?

• 25:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:31Jordi Hays?

  It won't be that surprising.

• 25:32John Coogan?

  The Apple AI chief, John Giandrea, is leaving the company. Amar Subramanayya from Microsoft has joined to lead AI under Craig Federighi. Uh, Aman brings a wealth of experience to Apple, he's quoting here. Uh, having most recently served as, uh, CVP of AI at Microsoft and previously spent 16 years at Google, where he was head of engineering for Google Gemini. This is bearing the lead. He joined Microsoft AI four months ago. Wow, what a crazy turn of events.

• 26:02Jordi Hays?

  LinkedIn says six months ago, but, but who's, who's counting?

• 26:06John Coogan?

  That's pretty fast.

• 26:07Jordi Hays?

  This makes sense considering Apple is partnering with Gemini. And not a lot of people are gonna be in a better position to help integrate that into Siri.

• 26:16John Coogan?

  Sure, sure.

• 26:17Jordi Hays?

  Than Amar.

• 26:18John Coogan?

  Strange hire for a number of reasons, but it's hard to argue that the Apple job is a bad one. Anything is an important improvement at this point, so the bar is as low as it comes. I'm I'm personally just excited to actually test drive what Gemini, how it works in Siri, how seamless that is. Because if it really is just raise, press the button, get Gemini, and it's linked up properly and it doesn't have timeouts and it gets back to you pretty quickly, like, that's gonna be a pretty powerful experience. That's that's definitely gonna cut down on ChatGPT app usage for iPhone users, I would imagine.

• 26:53Jordi Hays?

  Underrated threat.

• 26:55John Coogan?

  I would think so. I don't even know that Apple will benefit massively from this. It's not like they're gonna sell twice as many iPhones. They're already so big.

• 27:03Jordi Hays?

  I don't think it's necessarily like especially bullish for Apple.

• 27:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Jordi Hays?

  It's it's an underrated threat for OpenAI.

• 27:10John Coogan?

  I would think so.

• 27:11Jordi Hays?

  There's a lot of queries that all hit open ChatGPT on mobile.

• 27:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:14Jordi Hays?

  That are not even like super economic, but it's just a lot of my usage around like, hey, just trying to learn about something or or research or product, etc.

• 27:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:24Jordi Hays?

  And if that's just like, again, one tap and you're in there.

• 27:27John Coogan?

  Yeah, I I think I'm gonna be using that a lot unless they really botch it. And I don't know how they're gonna botch it, but yeah.

• 27:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, I I think the.

• 27:34John Coogan?

  If anything's possible, yeah.

• 27:36Jordi Hays?

  Apple's like, hold my beer.

• 27:37John Coogan?

  They could be like, every for privacy reasons, every time you press the button, you have to e-sign. And it's like, why are we doing that?

• 27:44Jordi Hays?

  Alfred Lin comes in on the board of DoorDash, buys a hundred million of DoorDash.

• 27:54John Coogan?

  Lin sanity. He's not done stewarding DoorDash. He's he's continuing to steward the company with a hundred million dollar buy.

• 28:03Jordi Hays?

  Let's pull up this clip from Huberman Lab. Dr. Jeffrey tells Huberman that LED lighting in buildings is a public health crisis that could be on par with the use of asbestos. Many building contractors slash designers are coming to him worried they're going to be sued and asking how to start fixing the issue.

• 28:22Speaker 04

  For lighting, because I am very concerned about the amount of short wavelength light that people are exposed to nowadays, especially kids.

• 28:29Speaker 05

  The group of us that are shuffling around, some of them are saying, this is an issue on the same level as asbestos. This is a public health issue and it's big. LEDs came in, and people won the Nobel Prize for this, very rightly at the time because they save a lot of energy. The LED has got a big blue spike in it, although we tend not to see that. And that is even true of warm LEDs, and there is no red. The light found in LEDs, when we use them, certainly we use them on the retina, looking at mice, we can watch the mitochondria gently go downhill. They're far less responsive. They, their membrane potentials are coming down.

• 29:13Speaker 05

  The mitochondria are not breathing very well. Can watch that in real time.

• 29:18Speaker 04

  Under LED lighting.

• 29:19Speaker 05

  Under LED lighting at the same energy levels that we would find in a domestic or a commercial environment.

• 29:26Jordi Hays?

  This is why I want to rig the studio with incandescent, incandescent light.

• 29:29John Coogan?

  Incandescent, we're going back to candles.

• 29:31Jordi Hays?

  Candle maxing?

• 29:32John Coogan?

  Let's do candle light.

• 29:32Jordi Hays?

  How about a hearth?

• 29:33John Coogan?

  This is the way.

• 29:34Jordi Hays?

  If we put a hearth, so we have lights above our heads, I'm sure, or LEDs, killing us slowly and softly. If we put like somewhat a bonfire right above us.

• 29:45John Coogan?

  That'd be the way.

• 29:46Jordi Hays?

  And then we just, when, when the wood kind of burns out, the show's over. We just go until the.

• 29:51John Coogan?

  That would be good. I like that. Leave us five stars.

• 29:54Jordi Hays?

  Love you.

• 29:54John Coogan?

  On Apple Podcasts.

• 29:54Jordi Hays?

  Thank you for hanging out.

• 29:56John Coogan?

  Goodbye.

• 29:56Jordi Hays?

  Have a great evening.