Google's Antitrust Victory | Aparna Chennapragada, Richard Socher, Pablo Palafox, Will Bryk, Charlie Wu

(01:08) - Google Stock Soars After Antitrust Ruling (22:23) - United States vs. Google White Board Breakdown (32:52) - Ben Thompson Sees Strategic Victory for Google (46:31) - Leadership Turmoil Hits Nestlé (51:33) - Timeline Reactions (01:11:18) - TBPN City Tier List (01:16:47) - Timeline Reactions (01:55:48) - Aparna Chennapragada, Microsoft's Chief Product Officer for AI at Work, has a rich background in product development, including leadership roles at Google and Robinhood. In the conversation, she discusses integrating AI into Microsoft's productivity tools, emphasizing the balance between adding AI features and enhancing user experience. She highlights the importance of meeting users where they are, whether through chat interfaces or embedded AI functionalities, to make work more efficient and intuitive. (02:14:03) - Breaking: Apple Steps Into AI Search Arena (02:22:42) - Timeline Reactions (02:32:03) - Richard Socher, a prominent AI researcher and entrepreneur, is the founder and CEO of You.com, an AI-powered search engine. In the conversation, he discusses You.com's recent $100 million funding round, valuing the company at $1.5 billion, and highlights the platform's rapid growth, now handling over a billion API calls monthly. Socher also addresses the evolving landscape of search, emphasizing the shift towards AI-driven models and the importance of accuracy in search results. (02:42:26) - Pablo Palafox, co-founder and CEO of HappyRobot, discusses the company's recent $44 million Series B funding led by Base10 Partners, with participation from existing investors like Andreessen Horowitz and Y Combinator. He explains that HappyRobot is building AI workers to automate repetitive tasks in the supply chain industry, such as negotiating freight rates, scheduling shipments, and collecting payments, allowing human teams to focus on strategic and higher-value activities. Palafox highlights that their platform integrates with existing enterprise systems and is already in use by over 70 enterprise customers, including industry leaders like DHL and Ryder. (02:48:03) - Will Bryk, co-founder and CEO of Exa, discusses the company's recent $85 million Series B funding round led by Peter Fenton, highlighting Fenton's extensive experience in guiding companies to IPOs and his alignment with Exa's vision. He elaborates on Exa's mission to build a search engine tailored for AI applications, emphasizing the need for AI-specific search infrastructure distinct from traditional human-focused search engines like Google. Bryk also touches on the challenges and strategies involved in developing such a platform, including the acquisition of a GPU cluster to support their research and the importance of training embedding models to enhance search quality. (03:00:32) - Charlie Wu, founder and CEO of Orchard Robotics, discusses the company's recent $22 million Series A funding led by Quiet Capital and Shine Capital, which will accelerate the development of AI-powered camera systems for precision crop management. He shares his personal journey, highlighting his family's background in apple farming and his early interest in robotics, leading to the creation of technology that provides farmers with detailed data on fruit count, size, color, and growth rates. Wu emphasizes the transformative impact of their technology on agriculture, enabling farmers to make informed decisions that enhance yield, reduce labor costs, and promote sustainable farming practices. TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Figma - https://figma.com Vanta - https://vanta.com Linear - https://linear.app Eight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpn Wander - https://wander.com/tbpn Public - https://public.com AdQuick - https://adquick.com Bezel - https://getbezel.com Numeral - https://www.numeralhq.com Polymarket - https://polymarket.com Attio - https://attio.com/tbpn Fin - https://fin.ai/tbpn Graphite - https://graphite.dev Restream - https://restream.io Profound - https://tryprofound.com Julius AI - https://julius.ai Turbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.com Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01John Coogan?

  Today is Wednesday, September 3rd, 2025. We are live from the TBPN Ultra Dome. Let's look at the wide.

• 0:10Jordi Hays?

  Look at the wide. Can we pull it up?

• 0:12John Coogan?

  Ultra Dome on screen.

• 0:14Jordi Hays?

  There we go.

• 0:15John Coogan?

  Dome.

• 0:16Jordi Hays?

  It's trust.

• 0:16John Coogan?

  New. You can't really see the trust, but anyway. We will be revealing more of the dome as we build it out. We continue to build out the Temple of Technology, the Fortress of Finance, the Capital of Capital today.

• 0:30Jordi Hays?

  Show off the trust a little bit.

• 0:32John Coogan?

  Show off the trust a little bit. Kate, do you have a camera? How are you going to show off the trust? I don't know. Well, we have a big trust and we're gonna hang some, hang some lights from it and show people off. I think Jordy's gonna do some, some pull-ups or something. He's gonna climb. I don't know if we have the insurance for this, Jordy. This is very, very risky. There he is. You can see him in the background. Anyway, we're talking about Google today. We covered it a little bit on the show yesterday, but it made the front page of the Wall Street Journal. You love to see it when tech, businesses, companies that we love and feature every day on the show.

• 1:09Jordi Hays?

  We're pushing them to rebrand it to the Sand Hill Journal.

• 1:12John Coogan?

  Yes, the Wall Street.

• 1:13Jordi Hays?

  Everything is technology.

• 1:14John Coogan?

  Hill Road Journal. Google dodges the worst penalties. Search giant can't pay for exclusivity, but it isn't forced to divest Chrome. So, good luck if you're out there bidding for the Chrome browser. Google's holding on to it. I'm not selling. You're gonna have to drag me out of here saying Chrome at Google.

• 1:32Jordi Hays?

  Arvin just punched a hole through the wall. So did Sam.

• 1:35John Coogan?

  Yeah. I think a lot of those, I mean, the post-mortem on that is like, all those companies were kind of trying to like, mess with the legal case, right? To just kind of be a thorn in Google's side. Is that basically the takeaway? Or did they actually want to buy it or something? It seemed like some sort of weird.

• 1:48Jordi Hays?

  I think a lot of people would love to own Chrome.

• 1:51John Coogan?

  Yeah. But also, a lot of people would love to just troll Google in the midst of their high stakes case. Anyway, so yesterday, the news is Google wrapped up the case with the Justice Department, and the result landed somewhere between "nothing ever happens" and "we are so back," in my opinion.

• 2:10Jordi Hays?

  Back, he says, "I think we all owe Sundar an apology."

• 2:13John Coogan?

  Yes, time to fill out the Sundar Pichai apology form. I was not familiar with your game, Sundar. You're an absolute dog.

• 2:20Jordi Hays?

  Can we pull up the Sundar chart?

• 2:23John Coogan?

  Yes, yes. Do we have a Sundar graphic we can pull up? He has been looking fantastic. He has clearly been enjoying bulking season, and so we'll pull that up. So lots of pundits have been bearish on Google for years now. I probably issued a bearish proclamation at some point during the show, but it was easy to do, right? Because they, you know, the narrative was very clean. They failed to release a consumer LLM chat app as quickly as OpenAI. Not only did, and the crazy thing is, first mover advantage really, really mattered. First mover advantage did not matter in cloud. AWS came out first, GCP came out second, Azure third, or second, third, we don't even know, and they're both huge businesses.

• 3:06John Coogan?

  Very oligopolistic. Not true. Here we go.

• 3:10Jordi Hays?

  There we go.

• 3:11John Coogan?

  Sundar.

• 3:12Jordi Hays?

  See in double.

• 3:13John Coogan?

  Sundar. We gotta get this revised. But he looks fantastic. Yeah, wow. He really has been hitting the gym. I'd love to see it. Anyway.

• 3:20Jordi Hays?

  Really filling out the

• 3:21John Coogan?

  So first mover advantage really, really did matter in consumer. We've seen that with the amount of LLM queries from consumers. OpenAI is running away with it. Obviously, there are lots of other good businesses to build in AI, but in terms of consumer, even though Gemini, that app, launched three months later to consumers, it wasn't fast enough. And it obviously was made, like, it stung all the more because the transformer was invented at DeepMind at Google. And so you have this narrative of like, they can do science and they can do research, but can they do consumer products? And, and so, OpenAI is running away with it, and it was very easy to be like, OpenAI is going to disrupt Google, people are not going to be searching on Google anymore, blah, blah, blah. And there's some, still

• 4:03John Coogan?

  some good, there's some good cases for cracks in the search business, I think. SemiAnalysis has laid out one that seems pretty reasonable.

• 4:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this case could have been a lot different if.

• 4:14John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 4:14Jordi Hays?

  L L M's hadn't exploded.

• 4:15John Coogan?

  Yes, totally, totally. And so the interesting thing is it's been very easy to write the the Google bear case. At the same time, Buco Capital bloke, friend of the show, has been Google bull posting for a long time. Ben Thompson has come out kind of pro-Google, really outlining what's going on. We saw that that breakdown of the various parts of their business. And when you look at it that way, you're like, wait a minute, okay, like, a couple trillion dollars. Like, if you're only the the Wall Street analyst that put this together, they were only valuing Google search at like eight hundred million, eight hundred billion. It was like, cloud was worth a ton. DeepMind was worth a ton. Waymo was worth over a hundred billion.

• 4:53Jordi Hays?

  YouTube.

• 4:54John Coogan?

  YouTube, you add all these things up, and the the properties become very valuable. So when you look at it in its totality, all of a sudden, Google looks a lot more stable, where you could say, yeah, maybe search sells off a little bit over the next 20 years. Like, it's clearly extremely lindy. And then simultaneously, like, YouTube gets even better because there's AI-generated content, and they have all the ability to generate AI video. And like, there's just a whole new wave, right? So there's a million different ways that they can play this. And Sundar's clearly an absolute dog, and never doubt him ever. So.

• 5:22Jordi Hays?

  Never again.

• 5:25John Coogan?

  But the interesting thing that you mentioned is that in an odd twist, the pressure from OpenAI and consumer AI chat interfaces, potentially competing with traditional Google search, might have sort of saved the search giant from more severe penalties. And Ben Gilbert of Acquired summed it up well. He said, "The court recognized the advantage Google has in paying browsers for distribution, but held off on banning it because of the new AI disruption threat that they face."

• 5:49Jordi Hays?

  I can read from the actual PDF from the case. "The court well recognizes what is skewing a payment ban."

• 5:56John Coogan?

  Eschewing.

• 5:56Jordi Hays?

  Eschewing.

• 5:57John Coogan?

  Schewing.

• 5:58Jordi Hays?

  Eschewing.

• 5:58John Coogan?

  A payment ban.

• 5:59Jordi Hays?

  A payment ban may mean for competition, due to Google's massive financial advantage and its superior monetization, distributors will be incentivized to stick with Google because it can pay more, thus leaving in place the very forces that effectively have made the ecosystem exceptionally resistant to change in the space and early, sorry, the money flowing into the space and how quickly it has arrived is astonishing. These companies already are in a better position, both financially and technologically, to compete with Google than any traditional search company has been in decades, except perhaps Microsoft.

• 6:30Jordi Hays?

  They also are moving toward monetization on commercial queries. These new realities give the court hope that Google will not simply outbid competitors for disruption if superior products emerge. It also weighs on favor of caution before disadvantaging Google in this highly competitive space. So for now, Google will be permitted to pay distributors for default placement. And if you've been living under a data center that is making Google search the default in Safari on the iPhone, there's other placements as well.

• 7:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's a very, it's a very like online take almost. It's a very tech Silicon Valley take to see in a court document. Like the context here is very fascinating to me. Like written in this legal document is then venture funding in internet search was considered Silicon Valley's biggest no-fly zone. Like, yeah, you can't raise money for something that's competitive with internet search. Like, it's just not a thing.

• 7:24Jordi Hays?

  And there was you, you.com.

• 7:27John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 7:28Jordi Hays?

  Trying to play in search, founders coming on later today. They're now an enterprise AI company.

• 7:32John Coogan?

  Oh, interesting. Okay, so full pivot.

• 7:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. I'm sure they're using some of the same foundational tech.

• 7:39John Coogan?

  Of course, yes. Today, established technologies are making and startups are receiving hundreds of billions of dollars in capital to develop gen AI products that pose a threat to the primacy of internet, traditional internet search. Interesting. Wouldn't it be, wouldn't it be amazing if like the Apple wallet, like by default, had just like a Ramp card in it? They should just place for like default Ramp in Apple. I feel like we should make this deal happen somehow.

• 8:04Jordi Hays?

  It is the official card of business.

• 8:05John Coogan?

  But until that happens, go to ramp.com. Time is money, save both. Easy use corporate cards, bill of payments, accounting, and a whole lot more, all in one place.

• 8:13Jordi Hays?

  All in one place. It's unbelievably good.

• 8:15John Coogan?

  Yeah. The other news, I mean, just to give some extra context on the financial outcomes here. Tanya has been on the show, summed it up, the financial results. Google stock is up 7%. It's a big, don't, never say love, love large numbers ever again to me. You can pop 7% in a day off of one legal result. Apple stock is up 3%, representing $250 billion of added market cap.

• 8:40John Coogan?

  On the antitrust ruling that Google can continue to pay Apple, but in a non-exclusive manner and won't need to divest Chrome Androids. So there are a bunch of good takes we're going to go through, people who have been studying this way more than I have.

• 8:52Jordi Hays?

  And again, the reason that Apple is up is they have 20 billion a year coming in from Google. That is effectively like one line of code.

• 9:00John Coogan?

  And it's, yeah, it's ultra profitable. It's incredible. Yeah. And, and it's something that like, when I was thinking about that going away, I was like, this is actually like pretty, pretty material to the business. Like it, it's, Apple's a huge business, but we, I mean, we watched that Tim Cook interview from what, a decade ago? And he was like, we made 50 billion in revenue, 10 billion in profit. And now they're making, what, 5 billion a quarter from this? Something like that? Like, this is, this is a serious amount of money. It's definitely like a material piece of the business.

• 9:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they're, they're sitting at a 36, 36 times.

• 9:33John Coogan?

  Earnings, yeah.

• 9:34Jordi Hays?

  So you take away that.

• 9:36John Coogan?

  They make a lot of money.

• 9:37Jordi Hays?

  Hundreds. No, I'm just saying like the economic value.

• 9:40John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like 500 billion or something like that.

• 9:42Jordi Hays?

  Hundreds of billions of dollars.

• 9:43John Coogan?

  Crazy, crazy. Okay. So anyway, we're going to run through Ben Thompson's take because he's been studying this for the entire journey and for years. And I feel like he knows this stuff way better than we do. But I do have some questions that I want to dig into. We can kind of debate this, Jordy. So.

• 9:57Jordi Hays?

  And by the way, the, the chat was, was concerned because John Exley was not in the chat. He's on a flight.

• 10:04John Coogan?

  Give us an update.

• 10:04Jordi Hays?

  But he got the flight wifi, so we're locked in.

• 10:07John Coogan?

  What an absolute guy.

• 10:09Jordi Hays?

  And thank you to, to all the brothers in the chat for checking on Brother John.

• 10:13John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. It's great. So my question is, we're going to go through the timeline. Tyler Cosgrove has written out the full United States versus Google case timeline we're going to dig through. We're also going to go through Ben Thompson's. But my question that I want to answer is, what do these, what do these pay for default deals look like going forward? Specifically, in artificial intelligence, there is going to be a particularly odd dynamic around how LLM queries route on the iPhone by default. Like, the last possible moment to start taking AI seriously and build like a serious.

• 10:53John Coogan?

  AI Foundation Model Lab, the last moment that you could credibly do that, I feel like was earlier this year. Like, that was when the last train left the station. And who was driving that train? Mark Zuckerberg. And what did he do? He went and tried to buy everything that was viable and hire everyone who was hirable.

• 11:12Jordi Hays?

  And the things that weren't viable.

• 11:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, for sure. And what he wound up with was not exactly a dream team. He didn't get Ilya, he didn't get Dario, he didn't get Demis, but he got a really solid crew, right?

• 11:25Jordi Hays?

  And some great business guys.

• 11:26John Coogan?

  Some great business guys, some great researchers. He also just filled out the researcher tiers. Like, he's got a ton of researchers. So.

• 11:34Jordi Hays?

  He wasn't worried about salary caps.

• 11:36John Coogan?

  No, no, no, not at all. And so, and so we were debating yesterday whether Alex Wang was a good pickup for Meta. And my conclusion is like, he is the best possible option. And I think it'll pencil out. I think it'll be a good deal. It is a big acquisition, and it'll be interesting to see how we look on that in a decade. But I think the opportunity's so big, it makes sense. At the same time, like, what would Apple even do if they wanted to compete in AI? Like, everyone is taken off, all the pieces are off the board at this point. They don't have the DNA for mega acquisitions, so they're not going to go and try and buy Anthropic. Like, that's just not how they work. They don't like writing hundred million dollar checks for talent. Tim Cook only makes seventy four point six million dollars a year. They're not going to pay some AI researcher a hundred million

• 12:21John Coogan?

  dollars. It's just not going to happen. And so, everyone else sort of has a dance partner at this point. Apple wouldn't just be like trying to turn the cruise ship that is Apple. They're building an entirely new cruise ship. It's just not going to happen. So I don't think Apple is going to try and build a serious frontier lab. I think they're going to partner on this. And the question is, where does it leave them? They have something incredibly valuable. Do you know how many active iPhone users there are worldwide right now?

• 12:48Jordi Hays?

  One and a half billion?

• 12:50John Coogan?

  One point four billion. Isn't that a ton? That just, I feel like I was, if I had to just guess, I'd be like-

• 12:57Jordi Hays?

  Job's not finished.

• 12:59John Coogan?

  Truly, truly. But, but, so like, that is incredibly valuable because it's not just, it's not just over a billion users. It's over a billion users that have-

• 13:06Jordi Hays?

  They can charge nine ninety-nine a month forever randomly.

• 13:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. So many different monetization, but it's also, it's like, it's, it's the top one billion, really, usually, like, basically, of like earners. Because it's the most expensive phone, usually.

• 13:21John Coogan?

  And so, and they also have that button on the side that right now activates something that should feel like AI, but is very clearly far from the frontier. And so the logical outcome feels like a partnership here, but what will the scale and structure of that partnership be? If OpenAI really nails agentic commerce, as semi-analysis suggests, it wouldn't be crazy for OpenAI to pay Apple billions of dollars to be the default. And so right now, we're thinking about, if you push the Siri button, you trigger an LLM inference query that's very expensive. Every time I hit ChatGPT, it's a couple cents. If I do some crazy reasoning thing, some deep research report, might be a dollar. I don't even know. It's expensive, right?

• 14:04John Coogan?

  If I'm sending off some agent to go and like, research every single different type of-

• 14:08Jordi Hays?

  You drained an Aquifer somewhere.

• 14:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's what it feels like, right? It feels like every time you hit, you hit a query, it's expensive. And so, but that's gonna flip. And I think each query is actually gonna be monetizable. And they're all gonna be, they're basically all gonna be profitable, like Google searches. And so, if they are profitable, if every time someone hits an LLM, it's not a cost center, but it's actually a profit center, well then, OpenAI can pay to get more search volume, some more query volume. And so that means that maybe OpenAI will wind up paying Apple billions of dollars to be the default. And of course, they're going to try and build their own device and there's a lot of other dynamics. But would they go with Gemini? Because they're already on Google for the search default.

• 14:54John Coogan?

  But would they go, would they do that? Or, or is that too, is that never, are they never going to be able to compete there? Because Gemini is so deeply integrated with Android and the Android phones are, are over here, kind of doing their own thing. So.

• 15:10Jordi Hays?

  And remember, and over this year, there's been rumors bubbling up of Apple in conversations with Anthropic, with ChatGPT, with Gemini, right? And a lot of these companies have been throwing around some very big numbers with, with, with, with Tim and the Apple team. And I think they had, at, at least back then, they, they seemed to have some stickers.

• 15:28John Coogan?

  So right now, it feels like the foundation labs are going to Apple and saying, every time we run a query, it costs us one cent, 10 cents, a dollar, whatever. You got to pay us to use our amazing intelligence.

• 15:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, to bring value to your users.

• 15:46John Coogan?

  But I think it might flip. And I think that the each query might actually be profitable just at the query level. Because there's going to be commerce that's triggered from those. So in the future, you'll pick up your phone, you'll press the button on the side, and you can instantly fire off a best-in-class OpenAI agent to do your bidding. So you'll say, order me some creatine and it'll just go do it. And that will be valuable and that will actually drive, that will be a profitable query. And so OpenAI could potentially be paying Apple for the right to do that. So right now, OpenAI, OpenAI and Apple do have a partnership in place, but the reporting suggests that no money is directly changing hands. But I don't necessarily expect it to stay that way. So, I don't know. What's your take?

• 16:31John Coogan?

  How do you, do you think that this is reasonable? That OpenAI could be paying Apple billions of dollars within the next, I don't know, five years? Or do you think it, it, it flips the other way and Apple is the one shelling out billions of dollars for access to frontier AI models from maybe Anthropic, maybe, uh, maybe OpenAI, maybe someone else?

• 16:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the people that are paying for chat GPT today probably have a pretty insane overlap with iPhone customers. Like, it probably looks something like this.

• 17:08Jordi Hays?

  I, I think that Sam recognizes, I mean, every consumer tech entrepreneur has like realized how important it is to integrate at the hardware level, right? This is why Zach is hell bent on winning in VR, right? He's been sick of like being at the app layer.

• 17:26John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 17:26Jordi Hays?

  And I know that Sam does not want to be in that same, you know, why would he pay billions for Johnny Ive and that team? Like, he, he, he understands the importance of the hardware layer and certainly will recognize the leverage that Apple is going to have over the entire ecosystem. I think the question is, a lot of this just comes down to, in my view,

• 17:51Jordi Hays?

  are consumers going to be paying for AI in the long run? I haven't been totally convinced that, that the everyday American is going to be spending, certainly not $200 a month. I don't even know about $20 a month, right?

• 18:02John Coogan?

  I think it flips.

• 18:03Jordi Hays?

  It's gonna, it's gonna ultimately flip. And so I can see, I can see there being a period where OpenAI is willing to pay to be like the default intelligence

• 18:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:14Jordi Hays?

  product within the Apple ecosystem. But again, there, it is just gonna be a really, it'll be, it'll be an interesting dynamic in partnership, right? Because it's gonna, it's so, there's so much tension there because Apple is gonna want us, Apple is already selling intelligence as a reason to upgrade the iPhone, right? And they, they've gotten lawsuits over this because they sold Apple Intelligence and then people are like, this isn't very smart at all. What did, what did I just buy, right? And so are they going to be incentivized to say?

• 18:41John Coogan?

  Even 70 IQ is a form of intelligence. It's just a low level of intelligence.

• 18:46Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 18:46John Coogan?

  They didn't say, they didn't say Apple high IQ intelligence. They didn't say Apple super intelligence. They just said Apple intelligence that has some level of intelligence.

• 18:54Jordi Hays?

  Apple room 10.

• 18:55John Coogan?

  Room 10 intelligence.

• 18:58Jordi Hays?

  Room 10, I Apple.

• 19:01John Coogan?

  What do you think, Tyler? Do you think that OpenAI will be paying Apple? Or do you think Apple will be paying other foundation labs? Or, or where, where will the flow of money go in the next few years?

• 19:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I, I don't really see it flipping very soon to where, like,

• 19:18Speaker 02

  Prompts or tokens are like actually super profitable. Um, cause you need like both massive, you need like way better capabilities and it needs to be way more efficient. Because like, if you just have more capabilities, still like right now, most people are not paying for chat GPT. They're just using the, the, you know, free plan.

• 19:34John Coogan?

  Sure, you have a free tier.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  Which is like, if you compare, I mean, if you compare four O, like, look at like five months ago, if you compare four O to like O three.

• 19:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  It was like massive, you know, difference and people still weren't paying.

• 19:46John Coogan?

  In cost or in?

• 19:47Speaker 02

  In.

• 19:48John Coogan?

  Just capabilities?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Capabilities, yeah. And people still weren't paying. So you need to be like way better. In order for people to actually start paying, or you need to be way cheaper.

• 19:57John Coogan?

  Yeah. I don't know if I agree with that. I, I, I feel like four O was definitely good enough. People were obsessed with it. People were like falling in love with it, right?

• 20:05Jordi Hays?

  Even Meek Mill.

• 20:06John Coogan?

  Like, I understand.

• 20:06Jordi Hays?

  Mill is defaulting.

• 20:08John Coogan?

  As a power user, like, didn't get that much out of it, but.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I, I, I think you, like, if you ask norm people what they think of like AI, they're like, oh yeah, this is not gonna take my job at all.

• 20:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  When reality, if you used like O three, and they, if they used O three every day, if they were a power user, they'd be, I think they'd be way more bullish on AI generally.

• 20:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  So I think that might be evidence that people like, I don't know, are not.

• 20:28Jordi Hays?

  I think, I mean, one crazy dynamic is, is Apple says, I mean, if they were to do a deal with OpenAI.

• 20:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:35Jordi Hays?

  They could just say like, great, like, we're gonna, we're gonna sign up every, like, how many, how many paying subs do you have? Great, we're gonna start heavily, if Apple just starts heavily pushing chat GPT. They will by default get their thirty percent from the App Store, right? But they could work out.

• 20:52John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 20:53Jordi Hays?

  So like, this could end up being like, even if, even if OpenAI is not directly paying.

• 20:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:58Jordi Hays?

  Apple for it, it could end up generating.

• 21:01John Coogan?

  I don't think it's enough.

• 21:03Jordi Hays?

  You don't think it's enough?

• 21:04John Coogan?

  I don't think it's enough money for the value that, that it'll bring on, if it was actually integrated into like the Siri button at the low level. I can just press a button and say, order me creatine. Order me creatine and it knows my address because it knows my home address from my contact in the, in there. It has my payment information saved. It does all of that. Like, I don't know if taking thirty percent of my chat GPT subscription, if I subscribe and if I subscribed on mobile, but really, most people are gonna subscribe on desktop and OpenAI is gonna be constantly being like, hey, go over here and like, use our web view to like, subscribe this way and stuff. I don't know. Uh, it'll be interesting to see how it pencils out. I feel like there's

• 21:47John Coogan?

  gonna be some new deal that, that's gonna happen. Someone's gonna, someone's gonna pay. Someone's gonna bid. Someone's gonna pay out.

• 21:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the Google team says, hey, we're already paying twenty, twenty billion. Why don't we double it? To be, Gemini be the default.

• 22:01John Coogan?

  Can you imagine? I mean, if Gemini was the default on, on iPhone, that would be bizarre. But, I mean, it does kind of like, it does kind of match with the, with the search deal, right? Um, anyway, let's read through Ben Thompson. Maybe we, maybe we go through the, the history first to get us up to speed, Tyler. Do you, do you mind taking us through that?

• 22:20Jordi Hays?

  Take us through it.

• 22:22John Coogan?

  So, this is the United States versus Google.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:25John Coogan?

  Which started in twenty twenty?

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Twenty twenty, it starts in October twenty twenty. So that's under Trump.

• 22:30John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I think, let's just go over like, kind of the central claim of the actual case first. So, it's basically that Google is violating the, the Antitrust Act of eighteen ninety.

• 22:40Jordi Hays?

  It's wild to think about, and, you know, before Donald Trump was a technology founder.

• 22:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:46Jordi Hays?

  With True Social, there was a time where he was beefing with big tech.

• 22:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 22:50Jordi Hays?

  It feels so long ago.

• 22:51John Coogan?

  Instead of just competing.

• 22:53Jordi Hays?

  Uh, thanks for getting us up on, uh, VHS. We needed this.

• 22:57John Coogan?

  Fantastic. Only possible on Restream, one livestream, thirty-plus destinations. Multi-stream your VHS tapes and reach your audience wherever they are. Head over to Restream.

• 23:08Jordi Hays?

  It truly is. Technology is incredible.

• 23:10John Coogan?

  Yes. Also, yeah, continue.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Okay, so, so, um, Sherman Antitrust Act of eighteen ninety. I also put some of the, the victims, previous victims of this act. So we see Standard Oil. Standard Oil, uh, American Tobacco Company, US Steel, AT&T, this is what broke up Bell Labs.

• 23:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Probably set us back a couple decades.

• 23:29John Coogan?

  You know who founded Bell Labs?

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 23:33John Coogan?

  Quiz, who founded Bell Labs?

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Wait, is it like, oh, I don't know. Is it Claude Shannon?

• 23:37John Coogan?

  No.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  No.

• 23:38John Coogan?

  Who founded Bell Labs?

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 23:41John Coogan?

  Bell Labs.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Alexander Graham Bell?

• 23:43John Coogan?

  Alexander Graham Bell, yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  No way.

• 23:44John Coogan?

  Alex, yeah.

• 23:47John Coogan?

  Alexander Graham Bell started Bell Labs.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 23:50John Coogan?

  Original technology brother.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  We don't know how to name companies.

• 23:52John Coogan?

  I know. I was looking at the names.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Standard Oil, American Tobacco.

• 23:56John Coogan?

  U.S.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  U.S. Steel.

• 23:57John Coogan?

  What does the A in AT&T stand for? Is that America? American Technology and.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Let me ask Gemini.

• 24:03John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  What does AT&T?

• 24:06John Coogan?

  Okay, anyway, continue. And then Microsoft, of course, it was a headache for Bill Gates for his entire career until he retired.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, that's so good. American Telephone and Telegraph. Oh, that's so good.

• 24:16John Coogan?

  When you pick a name like that and you actually, you understand the job and you're just like, yeah, Standard Oil, I'm going to standardize oil.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  I need a name for my telephone and telegraph company. Hmm. What about American?

• 24:29John Coogan?

  American.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Telephone and Telegraph Company.

• 24:32John Coogan?

  Founder.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:33John Coogan?

  Okay, anyway, sorry.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Okay, so, so basically the claim is that they're legally monopolizing the search engine and the, the advertising markets like in search.

• 24:41John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Um, so they're, they're locking up distribution.

• 24:44John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Uh, they're self-reinforcing barriers to entry. Um, and, and they're.

• 24:49John Coogan?

  And the evidence is that they paid billions to Apple and other vendors.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 24:53John Coogan?

  Probably hundreds of billions at this point because it's been like 10 billion for decades.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:57John Coogan?

  So, wow, they're, they're up.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  So, so, so that is, uh, they, they filed the, the case DOJ in 2020.

• 25:03John Coogan?

  Um, wait, should we start with the history of Google Search and Safari and then run through this?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah, yeah.

• 25:08John Coogan?

  That might be better.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  So, yeah, okay, so, so Google Search and Safari, so 2002.

• 25:13John Coogan?

  2002.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  This is.

• 25:15John Coogan?

  Pre iPhone.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is pre iPhone. This is just on Safari on the.

• 25:18John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  I guess the Mac or whatever it was.

• 25:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  So, so Google is the default there. It's just like.

• 25:23John Coogan?

  They just, Apple just picked that because it was the best one.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  It's just the best thing. They just put it in. Yeah, there's no.

• 25:28Jordi Hays?

  So, the, so Google's been the default search engine on Apple devices since 2002.

• 25:33John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 25:34Jordi Hays?

  And they, we don't know specifics. Most recently is $20 billion annually, but, but it's been an over 20-year partnership.

• 25:41John Coogan?

  I mean, that's a crazy, it's crazy to go, I mean, Google was founded late September 1998. And then by 2002, you're the default on Apple, like the previous era biggest computing company. I mean, I guess Apple wasn't like what it is today back in 2002, uh, kind of pre iPhone. It was certainly not like the biggest company in the world, but still like.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  Pre Tyler, too. This is all pre, I mean.

• 26:07Jordi Hays?

  Three years.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Two thousand and five.

• 26:08Jordi Hays?

  Two thousand and five.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  Hey, if you want to feel old, born in two thousand and five.

• 26:13John Coogan?

  Okay. So anyway, uh, Sergey Brin, what does he do?

• 26:16Speaker 02

  So, so two thousand and five Sergey Brin suggests, suggests some kind of revenue share. They always call it a revenue share.

• 26:21John Coogan?

  Goodness of his heart. What, what is he thinking? That's crazy.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  I have to assume there's, it's like there's some competition. He's seeing it on the horizon.

• 26:28John Coogan?

  Okay, yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  But yeah, I like that he, they always call it a revenue share. They don't, they're not paying to be the default.

• 26:34John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure, sure.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  They're just helping a brother out, you know? And then, um, two thousand and seven. Yeah. Two thousand and seven, two thousand and nine, these are like the real negotiations. They're like, it's like Sergey Brin says, like, oh yeah, we do revenue share. But then when it comes down to it, he's like, well, you know, let's slow down, let's push the brakes a little bit. The numbers are getting a little high. Um, and then basically the, the actual like numbers are not public.

• 26:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Um, they really only show up, yeah, as a result of this case, like them being.

• 27:02John Coogan?

  Oh, after the fact. So we learned this through the case. We didn't know for years. Wow.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  So it's not really till twenty twenty one.

• 27:07John Coogan?

  So there was like a full decade where people were like, yeah, like, uh, Google's probably paying Apple something, but.

• 27:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but hiding, hiding a.

• 27:14John Coogan?

  Thirty million dollars.

• 27:15Jordi Hays?

  Twenty billion dollar line item and you're.

• 27:18John Coogan?

  You can do it if, uh, I, I, I believe the disclosure rules and SEC filings are something like, if it's a, if it's a, if it's a division of the company that reports to the CEO, then you have to break out the financials. This is like YouTube. This is, uh, the story of like AWS when we first got the AWS financials. So if it's just something like, like, you know, is some deal and it's just one deal, like it's not, it's not even a, it's not even like a whole division of the company.

• 27:44Jordi Hays?

  It's a deal I did with Steve.

• 27:45John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's just like, it's just like other, other income or something like that. I don't know. Anyway, okay. So.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So twenty twenty one, it's, it's kind of revealed or estimated at least that, uh, payments are around twenty billion a year. Um, and then twenty twenty three, this is also a result of the case.

• 28:00John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Um, Apple is like confirmed to be taking a thirty six percent of the, the revenue from Safari that Google makes.

• 28:07John Coogan?

  Okay. No. So it's similar to their App Store revenue, a little bit higher, thirty six percent.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:11John Coogan?

  And that's probably how they got to the number. That's pretty crazy that Google's making $60 billion off of.

• 28:17Jordi Hays?

  I never knew they got where they were getting 30, 36% for the big man. For the big man. That's crazy.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then 2025.

• 28:26Jordi Hays?

  They're like, we know you paid to be here, but I'm gonna need a cut, too.

• 28:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, wow.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay, so let's go through the full, the case.

• 28:34John Coogan?

  The case.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  So, September 2023, this is really the first, like, actual, like, trial. It's the bench trial. I don't really know what that is, but August 2024 is, is the actual, like, initial judgment. So this is, Google is, in fact, violating antitrust.

• 28:53John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  Something needs to be done. We don't know what is to be done.

• 28:56John Coogan?

  But we're gonna do, but then we will eventually decide what the punishment is.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:00John Coogan?

  But they are guilty.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  They are guilty.

• 29:02John Coogan?

  They were found guilty.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  There's no, you know, results, like, what are they gonna do?

• 29:06John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're guilty. And then it's not till April of 2025, so this is five years after the, you know,

• 29:12John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  it was actually filed. There's the remedies trial, I think that's what it's.

• 29:16John Coogan?

  Sure. Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  So, yeah. So this is like what is actually to be done.

• 29:20John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Now, like, we know that they're a monopoly.

• 29:22John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  What do we do about it?

• 29:23John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  And then it wasn't until, I guess, yesterday that it was actually the verdict.

• 29:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, I got it.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  So we, I think we already went through some of the verdict.

• 29:32John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  But it's, the, the judge denied the DOJ's request for forced divestiture.

• 29:39John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Of Chrome and Android.

• 29:40John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  They ordered Google to end exclusive distribution agreements. So that's like, I think we talked about this too with Apple. You can't, like, just, it can't be exclusive to Apple, the, like, payments or whatever.

• 29:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, what, what does that mean in practice? It can't be exclusive, so they have to pay, like, Xiaomi or something? Are we talking about other phone manufacturers? Are we talking about other, other search engines? Like, I know that, like, like, it's not like if I go into my Safari settings, I, I can't pick Bing. Like, I, I can still pick other things. It's just the default that, that they're paying for.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:18John Coogan?

  Dig into that. Jordy, do you, do you wanna look that up or something?

• 30:20Jordi Hays?

  Gemini.

• 30:21John Coogan?

  Okay, cool.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  I don't, yeah, it's kind of like legalese. And then, then there's mandating Google to share search index and, and user, basically sharing data with competitors.

• 30:32Jordi Hays?

  I don't understand the exclusive, so, so Google pays Mozilla.

• 30:35John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 30:36Jordi Hays?

  They, Mozilla basically wouldn't survive without.

• 30:40Jordi Hays?

  Google, apparently, it's like a very significant amount of their revenue, which is funny because Google obviously competes with

• 30:46John Coogan?

  On Chrome.

• 30:47Jordi Hays?

  With Chrome. And then they do this with device manufacturers like Samsung. That just makes, make, you know, continue to make Chrome and Google Search pre-installed.

• 30:59John Coogan?

  Sure, sure. Okay, and then what's the last one? Search index, sharing of the search index and user interaction data with rivals. So was that Bing?

• 31:09Speaker 02

  I, yeah, so I guess this means, these are basically direct quotes from the actual like file. But I assume it means that they have to just share some of the like actual like index data from like whatever page rank is. They have to like put out publicly.

• 31:25John Coogan?

  So we gotta hammer the chief product officer of Microsoft today about Bing and what this means. Cause, yeah, I mean, there's gotta be a way to make money off this if you're Microsoft. This is the way to do it. Okay, anyway, anything else from the history?

• 31:39Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so, so, just to be clear, they prevent exclusive contracts. So Google is barred from entering or maintaining exclusive contracts that give its search engine, Chrome, Google Assistant, or Gemini app a monopoly position on a device. Basically, they can't go to a smartphone manufacturer and say you just can't host any other.

• 31:59John Coogan?

  Sure, sure. In the chat, Pericles says, Google's only going to share their search data with like other top three companies. It's still remaining a monopoly. Interesting, and people, people enjoy the VHS, so thank you for, for tuning in.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Also, so, so these rules also apply to like Gen AI stuff. All this also applies to like Gemini, if they want to do the same, you know, if they want to lease it to Apple or whatever. All the same rules apply about.

• 32:23John Coogan?

  If you've been enjoying the whiteboard segments, we are thinking about getting a smart whiteboard where we can put up a FIG Jam from Figma, of course, we're sponsored by Figma. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. You can get started for free, Figma.com. Let's run through Ben Thompson's take. So he kicks it off with, "Google's remedy decision. Alphabet Inc. will be required to share online search data with rivals while avoiding harsher penalties, including the forced sale. We know this. Google's statement was short and sweet. Earlier today, a US court overseeing the DOJ's lawsuit over how we distribute search issued a decision on next steps." He, uh, Google closes, says, as always, we continuing to, we're continuing to focus on

• 33:04John Coogan?

  what matters, building innovative products that people choose to love, choose and love.

• 33:10Jordi Hays?

  It's a good line.

• 33:10John Coogan?

  That's a statement of a company that lost some battles, but won the war, in my estimation, says Ben Thompson in, in Strategery, which you should go subscribe to. There are some cursory objections to Judge Metta's decision, but by and large, that statement exudes relief and rightfully so. The company that is truly breathing, the company is truly breathing easier today, however, is Apple. Apple's actually breathing easier because they're getting that sweet, sweet, so, sweet 20, 36% off the top.

• 33:40Jordi Hays?

  99% margin, 20, 20 billion a year.

• 33:43John Coogan?

  The first set of remedies, uh, were the ones that Google proposed and has already implemented, namely, an ending the exclusive agreements that were the foundation of Judge Metta's original finding of liability. So, uh, let's see, uh, I want to know what these actual, uh, remedies are. Here we go. Again, this is literally illegal behavior. What?

• 34:05Jordi Hays?

  We should just highlight again, so Google will be barred from entering or maintaining any exclusive contract relating to the distribution of search, Chrome Assistant and Gemini. Google shall not enter or maintain any agreement that conditions the licensing of the Play Store or any other Google application on the distribution, preloading or placement of Google Search, Chrome Assistant.

• 34:25John Coogan?

  This is the bundling thing. So, a lot of the antitrust cases hinge on bundling. You say, oh, you can't have the Play Store on your Android phone unless you're defaulting to search, or you, you have to have Chrome pre-installed if you want access to search. Like, all of that stuff is, uh, is seen as anti-.

• 34:45Jordi Hays?

  And so Ben says, again, this is literally illegal behavior, so ending it was the bare minimum. Antitrust precedent, however, dictates that Judge Metta go further, again, from the opinion. Uh, this is from Meta.

• 34:56John Coogan?

  Yeah. Oh, this is good, too. So, uh, they cannot ma- enter or maintain an agreement that prohibits any partner, either Apple or Samsung, uh, from simultaneously distributing any other search engine, browser, or Gen AI product. So you ca- so Google can't go to someone and say, and say, "Hey, uh, you, in order to have search as your default, or Google search, or whatever deal we're doing, or whatever we're paying you, uh, you can't have Anthropic pre-installed, or you can't have, um, uh, Mozilla pre-installed." Like, you can choose whatever you want.

• 35:35Jordi Hays?

  Can't be in the contract.

• 35:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, can't be in the contract. Uh, and that wa- and that is illegal behavior, and so ending it is the bare minimum, says Ben Thompson. Antitrust precedent, however, dictates that Judge Meta go further. Again, from the opinion, the question now is what to do about Google's violations. Precedent requires fashioning antitrust remedies that effectively pry open to competition, a market that has been closed by a monopolist's illegal restraints. Denying the fruits of the violation is a valid objective, and so, two, is ensuring that anti-competitive behavior will not recur in the same or related ways. The court has broad discretion to impose remedies to accomplish those aims. Judge Meta laid out four fruits of the violation.

• 36:18John Coogan?

  The court found that the agreements had four main anti-competitive effects. They, one, foreclosed a substantial portion of the relevant markets, thus impairing rivals' opportunities to compete. Two, denied rivals' access to user queries or scale, uh, needed to effectively compete. Three, reduced the incentive to invest or innovate in search. And four, enabled Google to increase tech ad prices without any meaningful competitive restraint, thereby allowing Google to earn monopoly profits to secure the next iteration of exclusive deals through higher revenue share payments. These effects did not persist independently. Together, they enabled Google to widen the moats and pull up drawbridges to ward off competition. Great analogy.

• 36:58Jordi Hays?

  Judge Meta attempts to address number two necessary scale by forcing Google to share various types of data, including Google's search index, but not the actual data from the webpages and the index or the output of Google's PageRank algorithm. Competitors, which explicitly include GenAI providers, will get a one-time snapshot, not an ongoing one, and only need to pay Google's marginal costs for providing the information. User click and query data showing what results users clicked on. Competitors will get this data at least twice, but the final number will be determined by the technical committee the court will set up and oversee. Do you fully understand?

• 37:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's a very, very odd, odd like change and remedy. I guess it like lets people catch up to where things are. It feels like the remedy is like, like there has been this unfair advantage for Google for years. We're letting everyone catch up and then we're creating like a fair race, but we're restarting the race and then everyone can go out and do whatever they want. But, but we're not, we're not permanently making Google share everything, but we're making a one-time catch-up of like data, I guess. Is that what's going on? I don't know.

• 38:07Jordi Hays?

  Tossing some scraps of data.

• 38:08John Coogan?

  That's what it seems like. So we'll continue with Ben Thompson. In addition, Google needs to make its web search results available via syndication at ordinary commercial terms for five years, capped at 40% of an alternative search engine's annual queries. These are all worthwhile remedies. The problem, however, is that it is that that's it, the Google patronage network. So there, there is a lot here. And, and he does talk about Bing. I'm going to work through the remaining fruits, three fruits backwards. First or fourth, Judge Meta decided that Google sharing user click data for ads was both a request too broad and also the court didn't know what data needed to be disclosed. So that one was discarded. The third fruit meanwhile is getting a lot of attention because Judge Meta said

• 38:53John Coogan?

  that basically no longer existed. Generative AI products are now a competitor to search and are getting plenty of funding. This is what we talked about earlier. Very interesting to see that there is a lot of competition there. In early 2023, when the new Bing with generative AI search, OpenAI's Sam Altman told Ben Thompson in a Techery interview, "I think it's fabulous for both of us. I think there's so much upside for both of us here. We're going to discover what these new models can do. But if we're sitting on a lethargic search monopoly and had to think about a world where this was going to be a real challenge to the way that monetization of this works and new ad units and maybe even temporarily downward pressure, I would not feel great about that." Do you know what that lethargic search monopoly does feel great about?

• 39:38John Coogan?

  Being able to keep the fruits of its anti-competitive actions because OpenAI exists. That's crazy. Anyway, that leaves one point. In the Apple connection, Judge Meta admits that a ban on Google Payments for search placement would have an impact on the market. The rationale for a payment ban is straightforward. It would pry open the market to competition, and we talked about this a little bit earlier. And yet Judge Meta declined because of the harm ending payments would cause to recipients of those payments, leading to a list of downstream effects. Quotes from the opinion, "Lost competition and innovation from small developers in the browser market, fewer products and less product innovation from Apple." Apparently, they don't have enough money. Otherwise, that is a funny, funny conclusion.

• 40:21John Coogan?

  "Higher mobile phone prices and less innovative phone features." Judge Meta further argued that the ultimate outcome would harm consumer welfare, and that was that. The entire section was, in fact, a total endorsement of the Google approach Ben described in Friendly Google and Enemy Remedies.

• 40:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this is great. The cleverness from Ben, "The cleverness of Google's strategy was their focus on making friends instead of enemies, thus motivating Apple in particular to not even try. Tech companies, particularly advertising-based ones, famously generate huge amounts of consumer surplus. Yes, Google makes a lot of money showing you ads, but even at a $300 billion-plus run rate, the company is surely generating far more value for consumers than it is capturing." That is, in itself, some degree of defense for the company. I should note, much as Standard Oil brought light to every level of society, what is notable about these contractual agreements, though, is how Google has been generating surplus for everyone else in the tech industry. Maybe this is a good thing. It's certainly good for Mozilla, which gets around 80% of its revenue

• 41:23Jordi Hays?

  from its Google deal. It has been good for device makers commoditized by Android, who have an opportunity for scraps of profit. It has certainly been profitable for Apple, which has seen its high-margin services revenue skyrocket, thanks in part to the $20 billion per year of pure profit it gets from Google without needing to make any level of commensurate investment.

• 41:43John Coogan?

  So what Ben actually recommended...

• 41:45Jordi Hays?

  And one more line here from Judge Meta. He says, "The revenue share payments shaped the market for general search services in Google's favor. They provide an incredibly strong incentive for the ecosystem to not do anything. They effectively make the ecosystem resistant to change, and their net effect is to basically freeze the ecosystem in place." Apple's like, "Why would... We could compete in search, but why would we if we can get $20 billion a year?" And the device manufacturers, they say, "Technically, they could create a new search engine or new intelligence, but we could just get a revenue share from Google."

• 42:21John Coogan?

  There was a... I feel like there was a dust-up back in the Steve Jobs era over Siri, and whether Siri counted as a search engine and where the Siri project would go. Because at a certain point, search had become so well-defined in terms of the technology that you need to actually build a search engine, that Apple could do it. Similar to training a foundation model now. Like, it's something that, if you have the money and you have the talent, you can just do it. And there are a number of companies that have done it. The problem is the distribution. Like, there are other search engines out there, DuckDuckGo, but the problem is actually getting the aggregation of everyone actually showing

• 43:01John Coogan?

  up and getting the flywheel and making it a default. And Apple has the ability to make something a default, but you're basically paying them off to not go and build their own search engine. And yeah, it's this like, there's this tension.

• 43:18John Coogan?

  Anyway, Ben Thompson recommended that Judge Meta do the following back when he was writing about this case earlier. Ben said, "This is why ultimately I am comfortable with the implications of my framework and why I think the answer to the remedy question is an injunction against Google making any sort of payments or revenue share for search. If you're a monopoly, you don't get to extend your advantage with contracts, period. Now do most favored nation clauses. More broadly, we tend to think of monopolies as being mean. The problem with aggregators is that they have the temptation to be too nice. It has been very profitable to be Google's friend.

• 44:01John Coogan?

  I think consumers and Google are better off if the company has a few more enemies." So, basically, don't pay Apple at all. What will happen? Apple becomes an enemy. Apple partners up with a different search engine, builds their own, creates more competition, maybe ad prices on Google go down, maybe there's more consumer surplus. I think that's kind of what Ben's, you know, initial take was. But Judge Meta disagreed.

• 44:29Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting because if you take away, you make it so that Google can't pay for, for search placements, Mozilla dies and then browsers become less competitive.

• 44:39John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, that is the, that is the flip side of the coin, which is very interesting. But usually you would, you would assume that it's the opposite. You would assume that like they're maintaining this monopoly, but in fact, they're kind of, at least they're, they're maintaining their search monopoly, but then they're propping up an oligopoly in, in browsing because they're like, oh, it's okay. Because the browsers are just a, a window into the actual high profitable, highly profitable search results. So Judge Meta disagreed because Google's strategy of sharing its monopoly profits was deemed too important to undo. Note the paradox. Judge Meta is implicitly admitting that as long as Google is able to pay for search placement, they will in fact continue to dominate search placement. After all, continued Google dominance is a prerequisite to Google money continuing

• 45:20John Coogan?

  to flow, thus avoiding the downstream effects Judge Meta is concerned about. So he did, he did allow for the fact that not banning payments might be a mistake.

• 45:31Jordi Hays?

  So he says, "So for now, Google will be permitted to pay distributors for default placement. There are strong reasons not to jolt the system and to allow market forces to do the work." Still, Judges must be open to clarifying and reconsidering their decrees in light of changing or unchanging market realities, the court is thus prepared to revisit a payment ban or a lesser remedy if competition is not substantially restored through the remedies the court does impose.

• 45:57John Coogan?

  Hmm. Anyway, uh, let's move on. Let's tell you about Vanta. Automate compliance, manage risk, improve trust continuously. Vanta's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process and replaces it with continuous automation.

• 46:09Jordi Hays?

  This is America.

• 46:10John Coogan?

  Whether you're suing your first framework or managing a complex program.

• 46:13Jordi Hays?

  This is Vanta country.

• 46:16John Coogan?

  This is Vanta country. Uh, Annie says, be Nestle, hire a French CEO, act surprised that the Frenchman is having taboo, debaucherous relations on the job. Uh, their president literally married his child. Oh, you haven't heard about this? So this was in the Wall Street Journal yesterday and we didn't get to it. And then it was also in the Wall Street Journal today and.

• 46:35Jordi Hays?

  Pull it up. Pull up the journal.

• 46:37John Coogan?

  And we've got to pull it up. So, uh, Nestle has fired their CEO following a probe of a romantic relationship with a subordinate.

• 46:44Jordi Hays?

  You can't even marry your childhood teacher in this country?

• 46:47John Coogan?

  No, you can. You can. You can't have a romantic relationship with a subordinate if you are running Nestle. So Laurent Frich, uh, Frichay, I, I don't know how to pronounce the, the X in that name, but, uh, Laurent is out after just a year at the top job of the food giant, which is trying to sell a number of underperforming businesses. Uh, they dismissed the CEO with immediate effect following an investigation into an undisclosed romantic relationship with a direct subordinate that breached the group's code of conduct. The Swiss maker of Nescafe coffee, Purina Pet Food, said Monday that his board had ordered the probe overseen by chairman Paul Bulk and lead independent director Pablo Isla, Isla, uh, uh, with support of an independent outside counsel.

• 47:32John Coogan?

  This was a necessary decision, decision, they said. Nestle's values and governance are strong foundations of our company and I thank Laurent for his years of service at Nestle. Uh, they didn't identify the employee in the relationship. Um, but it's a dramatic shift in the top echelons of Nestle in little more than a year. Uh, he, uh, this CEO Laurent had replaced CEO Mark Schneider in a bid to revive growth as the company grappled with sluggish sales. Uh, he was the first outsider to run Nestle since 1922.

• 48:06John Coogan?

  He was dismissed because he wasn't seen by his board of directors as a cultural fit. The new guy, Laurent, who just got fired, who had previously run businesses at Nestle in Europe and Latin America, took the helm of the company in September of 2024, so less than a year, exactly a year.

• 48:23John Coogan?

  In July, they were reviewing some underperforming brands. But, let's see, where is it? The company's been, so he isn't, so basically, he gets fired, and then today, he's in the news again. Where is it? It's here, I think.

• 48:43Jordi Hays?

  Not again.

• 48:43John Coogan?

  He's in again, with a detail. So, "An anonymous tip led to the fall of Nestle's CEO." Nestle's chief executive, Laurent Frichet, his downfall started with an anonymous tip to an internal hotline called Speak Up. Laurent was having an intimate relationship-

• 49:01Jordi Hays?

  And I guess this tip initially came through, like, last year or something, so it had been bubbling up.

• 49:06John Coogan?

  Yeah. So, he was having an intimate relationship with a marketing executive who reported to him, the tipster reported. The couple initially denied any relationship. It took two investigations, more hotline reports, and a letter to the Nestle chairman before the food company acted. He didn't respond to requests for comment.

• 49:26Jordi Hays?

  Gabe sent a unhinged message in the chat. He says, "Who cares about this nonsense? The divorce rate is like 50%. Makes your brand more personable if your CEO is cheating on his wife."

• 49:37John Coogan?

  The real question that we need to dig into is how is Nestle gonna come back from this? They gotta get Gwyneth Paltrow or something to do some viral video.

• 49:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's a playbook now.

• 49:49John Coogan?

  So, "The executive's downfall throws Nestle into disarray after the company abruptly ousted its previous chief for underperformance."

• 49:57Jordi Hays?

  Mark says it's LoRone. LoRone.

• 50:02Jordi Hays?

  It's not Laurent.

• 50:03John Coogan?

  Laurent. Oh, Laurent.

• 50:05Jordi Hays?

  Laurent. Thank you.

• 50:06John Coogan?

  Laurent. Wait, how do you pronounce Frichet? Is that, is that, am I close on that? I don't know. He was nest quickly, he was nest quickly escorted out of the office. That's really good. There you go. Oh, absolute great chatter. Uh, so, uh, Lo- Laurent, uh, was sixty, is sixty-three years old and was in Nestle since nineteen eighty-six. He'd, uh, refocused the company on corporate.

• 50:31Jordi Hays?

  Eighty-six?

• 50:32John Coogan?

  Eighty-six. A forty-year run.

• 50:35Jordi Hays?

  Almost.

• 50:36John Coogan?

  Forty-year run.

• 50:37Jordi Hays?

  Twenty years.

• 50:37John Coogan?

  He was like twenty-four when he joined the company.

• 50:39Jordi Hays?

  Twenty, twenty years before Tyler was born.

• 50:41John Coogan?

  Yes, put everything in the context of.

• 50:44Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's important.

• 50:46John Coogan?

  Well, so, uh, you're telling me that America was founded two-hundred-and-twenty years before Tyler was born?

• 50:53Jordi Hays?

  Wow.

• 50:53John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 50:54Jordi Hays?

  Wow.

• 50:54John Coogan?

  Um, so, uh, the French CEO slashed costs to reinvest in more promising products such as cold coffee and shored up Nestle's executive team, uh, at the company's headquarters on the shores of Lake Geneva in Vevé, Switzerland. I guess I'm probably mispronouncing that, too. Um, his Swiss successor, Philip Navratil, uh, faces the task of arresting a years-long slide in the company's shares and restoring calm after scandals, snafus, and executive departures. Uh, anyway, um, there's more.

• 51:26Jordi Hays?

  Well, speaking of, uh, corporate controversy, the Los Angeles Clippers and owner Steve Ballmer are accused of paying star Kawhi Leonard twenty-eight million dollars for a no-show job as a way to circumvent the NBA salary cap, according to a report by Pablo, uh, Tori.

• 51:45John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 51:46Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Tori laid out the alleged scandal on his program, Pablo Tori Finds Out. Uh, earlier today, the show, which features plenty of direct quotes from legal documents, made the argument that Leonard was paid twenty-eight million through a company owned by Ballmer to essentially do nothing. Ballmer is accused of using this agreement as a way to pay Leonard more than his contract, uh, which, if true, is a violation of NBA rules. The entire situation revolves.

• 52:12John Coogan?

  I thought, I thought there was no tax on tips. I thought you could just tip a player if you really liked them. And wouldn't that not count in the salary cap?

• 52:19Jordi Hays?

  Should've just been tipping.

• 52:20John Coogan?

  I feel like you should've just been tipping.

• 52:22Jordi Hays?

  And that tip, tip twenty-eight mil to your favorite player on the team.

• 52:25John Coogan?

  Why not?

• 52:26Jordi Hays?

  Now that uh

• 52:27John Coogan?

  Why are they

• 52:28Jordi Hays?

  The entire situation revolves around a now bankrupt company called Aspiration.

• 52:31John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 52:32Jordi Hays?

  Which is a tree planting service funded by Balmer. So I think tree planting feels like a little bit disingenuous. This was a, I think it was a fintech company.

• 52:40John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 52:41Jordi Hays?

  That uh, that had uh, sort of an eco angle to it that had been.

• 52:46John Coogan?

  It would plant a tree every time you like saved a dollar on the app or something like that.

• 52:49Jordi Hays?

  Every time you.

• 52:50John Coogan?

  Some flywheel.

• 52:51Jordi Hays?

  You know, something like that. Um, and so yeah, Balmer had invested a lot of money in this company. And uh, yeah, they were effectively paying him as a spokesperson. But uh, in the contract with uh, Kawhi's, uh, one of Kawhi's entities stated that Leonard could decline to proceed with any action desired by the company. So uh, he could, they could say like, hey, you want to do this? And he could say, meh, not, no thanks. And uh, he would, his contract was still, you know, valid. He wasn't, wasn't violating anything.

• 53:28John Coogan?

  It is, it is an odd choice. I feel like if you're Balmer and you're a multi-billion, I mean, he's one of the richest people in the world, right? And your goal is to get someone who you're effectively doing business with on the court, he's a basketball player. Your goal is to get him an extra $28 million. Isn't there a better way to do that? Like, isn't there, isn't there a way to like, set up some fund that's, you know, you cut him in on and then you're actually like, doing something economically valuable like?

• 54:04Jordi Hays?

  Go invest, get into founder's fund, growth fund.

• 54:07John Coogan?

  I mean, that, that's one option, but honestly, it's like, couldn't you just make some calls and get him more Super Bowl ads and get him more like ad deals? Like, just, just make some calls and get it, and get some like legitimate business. Like, it doesn't seem like that crazy of a number to try and pull together. Like somewhat, like much more legitimately, you know? Like, there are probably advertisers out there who would say, oh yeah, like, we'll, we'll pay him a couple million dollars to be like our, you know, the face of our brand.

• 54:37Jordi Hays?

  Twenty, 28 million is a lot though, for a company that had only raised a couple hundred million dollars.

• 54:43John Coogan?

  No, what I'm saying is, is that like, is it like?

• 54:45Jordi Hays?

  I mean, the question, the question to me is like.

• 54:47John Coogan?

  Power at Microsoft to, to say, hey, we're, we're rolling out a new version of Excel and you're going to be the face of the campaign.

• 54:53Jordi Hays?

  The new Clippy is going to be Kawhi. Little Kawhi hanging out.

• 54:57John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 54:58Jordi Hays?

  Hanging out, helping you and.

• 54:59John Coogan?

  There's gotta be some other way to.

• 55:02Jordi Hays?

  Well, the, the, the way is to actually make him an ambassador for the company. Like that, that, I don't think there's anything illegal about somebody, you know, a, a basketball player getting a major endorsement deal.

• 55:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:14Jordi Hays?

  Outside of their team.

• 55:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:15Jordi Hays?

  But I think that the thing that takes it off is, you know, really big number. And then, uh, not doing any, not doing, they, they, they weren't able to find any content that Kawhi was in related to aspiration. So signing this big sort of.

• 55:28John Coogan?

  If you sign a deal with a company to promote them, you have to run ads for them. You have to tell the audience about graphite. Code review for the age of AI, graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. Get started for free.

• 55:44Jordi Hays?

  We will always tell you.

• 55:45John Coogan?

  They're not paying us to, to get around the podcast or salary cap. No way.

• 55:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. I mean, I read this and I just, I was feeling so grateful that we don't have any salary caps in business.

• 55:55John Coogan?

  Yes, yes. 100%.

• 55:57Jordi Hays?

  We wouldn't have, we wouldn't have been able to retain, we wouldn't have been able to retain Tyler.

• 56:00John Coogan?

  Also, I also don't know if I, I, I don't, I don't know that I feel that this story is finished. It, it feels like it's viral and there's some allegations, um, but I will be reserving my judgment until I hear Steve Ballmer.

• 56:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the Clippers already responded. They said neither Mr. Ballmer nor the Clippers circumvented the salary cap or engaged in any misconduct related to aspiration. Any contrary assertion is provably false.

• 56:28John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's like an anonymous inside source from Pablo Torre founds out.

• 56:32Jordi Hays?

  I mean, I do think if you care, if you, if you care about basketball.

• 56:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:37Jordi Hays?

  And you care about this, if you're another team, are you not like deeply frustrated?

• 56:44John Coogan?

  If it's true, it might not be true.

• 56:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 56:46John Coogan?

  He might've, he might've been like, yeah, I had a deal. We signed the deal. It was 28 million. They did not. They were not very good at planting trees and so they didn't pay me anything and I didn't do any promotion for them. So yes, there's technically a contract or there could not be a contract. It could be this anonymous source just saying like whatever.

• 57:05Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's this is not an anonymous source.

• 57:07John Coogan?

  It says an inside source, inside source.

• 57:09Jordi Hays?

  But he's like a capital J journo.

• 57:12John Coogan?

  Pablo Torre?

• 57:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 57:13John Coogan?

  Oh, okay. I don't know.

• 57:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, he seems.

• 57:15John Coogan?

  Is he at the Athletic or something?

• 57:16Jordi Hays?

  Doing pretty legit journalism.

• 57:18John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 57:18Jordi Hays?

  But the funny thing is, so Leonard, Leonard joined the Clippers on a three-year, $104 million deal in 2019, re-upped in 2021 for $176 million and then re-upped again in 2024 for a three-year, $149 million extension. And so the $28 million is like almost like a rounding error in all of this. I mean, it's a big number, but at the same time, like, would he not have joined the Clippers?

• 57:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 57:44Jordi Hays?

  Like, would he have gone somewhere else if he hadn't gotten this?

• 57:48John Coogan?

  Yeah, I don't know. Maybe, maybe the nature of the salary cap is, like, there is more cap space at another, at another.

• 57:56Jordi Hays?

  NBA, NBA fans in the chat.

• 57:58John Coogan?

  Yeah, look now.

• 57:59Jordi Hays?

  Does this piss you off or is this fair game for, for, for Kawhi Leonard to be the face of, the faceless face of aspiration?

• 58:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:09Jordi Hays?

  Aspiration isn't even around anymore. They're, they're chapter 11.

• 58:12John Coogan?

  There are plenty of space, there are plenty of sports with no salary caps, right? Where they can just spend as much as possible. Isn't F1 kind of like that?

• 58:19Jordi Hays?

  Maybe, maybe Kawhi just hates trees and wanted to put this company in the dirt.

• 58:25John Coogan?

  Who knows? Who knows? Anyway, we have massive news from one of our sponsors, Shane Copeland over at Polymarket. Polymarket has been given the green light to go live in the United States of America by the CFTC.

• 58:39Jordi Hays?

  Let's go.

• 58:40John Coogan?

  Congratulations to Shane. He has the eagle in his bio or in his name tag and that is the most appropriate sound effect for today. Credit to the commission and staff for their impressive work. The process has been accomplished in record timing. Fantastic, fantastic turn of events. What a story. What Mike Wenner's there in the replies saying banned to approval in three and a half years is an absolute speed run. Very, very difficult to, to get new things done in the government generally. It's very tricky and they figured it out. So congrats to everyone over there. And if you're tracking. If you're tracking any, any news, head over to Polymarket to check it out. We, we of

• 59:24John Coogan?

  course have Polymarket powering our ticker down there. Uh, anyway, I want your review of the new Aston Martin Vanquish, uh, particularly this one. This is your favorite colorway, right? Green over tan?

• 59:35Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 59:36John Coogan?

  So it's green over tan. It's finished in historic California sage over 21 inch liquid silver wheels. It features a 5.2 liter V12 twin turbo with 835 horsepower and 1,001 Newton meters of torque.

• 59:52Jordi Hays?

  I absolutely love the Vanquish.

• 59:53John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 59:54Jordi Hays?

  I think I want to pick one up when they're half off in two years.

• 59:57John Coogan?

  You think there'll be a depreciation?

• 59:58Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I think this is like a half a million dollar car right now.

• 1:00:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:02Jordi Hays?

  Feels like it's going to be a quarter million dollar car in a couple of years.

• 1:00:05John Coogan?

  Well, why do you think, yeah, why do you think Aston Martins depreciate so much faster than Ferraris?

• 1:00:13Jordi Hays?

  I mean.

• 1:00:13John Coogan?

  Is it just the limited run nature? What's driving it?

• 1:00:16Jordi Hays?

  Uh, one, one big issue over the last few years has been the, uh,

• 1:00:21John Coogan?

  Lack of James Bond movies.

• 1:00:22Jordi Hays?

  Internal, uh, internal electronics have been extremely dated. So until the last two years, they were extremely dated. So you'd buy.

• 1:00:29John Coogan?

  Is that not true for Ferrari? Is Ferrari known for like amazing carplay integrations?

• 1:00:34Jordi Hays?

  I mean, not, not to the same degree. I mean, if you buy a 2021 Aston Martin, it feels like sitting in a car from like 15 years ago.

• 1:00:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Jordi Hays?

  And people just don't like that. Right? Like I've looked at them and I'm like, if I'm driving this around LA.

• 1:00:46John Coogan?

  Can't you just rip all that out and get one of those aftermarket things with like twin 12, 12 inch subwoofers in the back?

• 1:00:53Jordi Hays?

  It's kind of, it's kind of janky.

• 1:00:54John Coogan?

  I think you could put it on spinners and, uh, take it to the pimp my ride shop with exhibit and throw a, throw a TV in the front. I don't know. Or, or you can pull off like, you know what the cops do where they put the full laptop next to them? Have you seen that? Where you pull up next to a police officer?

• 1:01:09Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:10John Coogan?

  And they have the full laptop.

• 1:01:10Jordi Hays?

  And you're like, wait, you're pulling somebody over for using their phone.

• 1:01:13John Coogan?

  And you're on your laptop. Oh.

• 1:01:16Jordi Hays?

  You're watching TBPM.

• 1:01:18John Coogan?

  Little hypocritical, don't you think?

• 1:01:23John Coogan?

  Oh, well.

• 1:01:23Jordi Hays?

  But, uh.

• 1:01:24John Coogan?

  Yes, why, what, what, yeah, why?

• 1:01:26Jordi Hays?

  I think this will change, I think this will change a little bit.

• 1:01:28John Coogan?

  Do they just make too many of them or something?

• 1:01:29Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Lawrence Stroll is out to win in the category, he's taking it very seriously. They've, they've, um, up their, um, manufacturers like guarantees now. They've made it, uh, a much easier decision. Um, we'll see, we'll see how these do. Uh, I still think, uh, they lack the kind of like cult, um, the scale of the cult following that, that obviously Porsche has, but I think in this case, I, I like this colorway. I think, uh, green on tan, green on tan, uh, the meta, uh, it's timeless, but I think the meta is, is fading and, uh, brown on brown.

• 1:02:03John Coogan?

  Brown on brown, yeah, you, you saw a brown on brown, brown on brown Porsche at the, at the gym yesterday.

• 1:02:09Jordi Hays?

  I tried to buy it.

• 1:02:10John Coogan?

  Really jumped out of the car to go shake the person down and.

• 1:02:13Jordi Hays?

  Tried to, made it, made it, made a bid.

• 1:02:15John Coogan?

  You made a bid?

• 1:02:15Jordi Hays?

  Well, I just said, would you sell me your car?

• 1:02:17John Coogan?

  Really, you said that?

• 1:02:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:18John Coogan?

  Oh, I didn't realize, that's why he went up.

• 1:02:19Jordi Hays?

  Woman said no.

• 1:02:20John Coogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:02:21Jordi Hays?

  But, uh, brown on brown.

• 1:02:22John Coogan?

  The most bullish catalyst for this vanquish going, uh, uh, asymptotic and going into the stratosphere in terms of price, Aston Martin is of course partnered with public.com.

• 1:02:34Jordi Hays?

  That's right.

• 1:02:34John Coogan?

  And so all the public.com fans, the investors who take it seriously because they have multi-asset investing, industry-leading yields, trusted by millions, all the public.com fans will buy Aston Martins now.

• 1:02:45Jordi Hays?

  And public is a sponsor of the US Open.

• 1:02:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:48Jordi Hays?

  And some tennis players, so they sent us some balls.

• 1:02:50John Coogan?

  Is Aston Martin paying public to, oh, that's a good sound. Smell it.

• 1:02:56Jordi Hays?

  I don't think, I don't think you're smelling.

• 1:02:57John Coogan?

  You're definitely supposed to smell it. That's the rule number one of opening a ball of tennis and tennis balls.

• 1:03:02Jordi Hays?

  Trying to kill me, John? Um, anyways, these are fantastic.

• 1:03:05John Coogan?

  This is really cool.

• 1:03:06Jordi Hays?

  We gotta, we gotta get it. I mean, we, we almost have room for, for court here.

• 1:03:10John Coogan?

  Now, now, are those actually tennis balls or could those be used for some of the less popular sports, the padel and the, and the pickleball?

• 1:03:17Jordi Hays?

  Oh, I think, I think it would be wrong to use these for anything but tennis.

• 1:03:20John Coogan?

  Do, does padel or pickle have like this different, different ball?

• 1:03:24Jordi Hays?

  Pickleball does.

• 1:03:25John Coogan?

  Pickleball has its own ball.

• 1:03:26Jordi Hays?

  What does padel use?

• 1:03:28John Coogan?

  I don't know. Anyway, um, thank you to the public.

• 1:03:32Jordi Hays?

  Now, padel, padel have, have, uh, higher pressure, thicker felt, slightly larger size.

• 1:03:37John Coogan?

  Okay, interesting.

• 1:03:40John Coogan?

  Well.

• 1:03:40Jordi Hays?

  All right, standard tennis balls are, are, um, padel's smaller, I guess, anyways.

• 1:03:46John Coogan?

  Yes, well, uh. Uh, Klarna is going public, uh, and Eli, uh, says,

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Friendly IPO, in the.

• 1:03:55John Coogan?

  Ooh, that's a good one. Uh, says, interest in this IPO, but $35 seems like a lot to pay all at once. Would it be possible to split this up into four interest-free payments? Uh, of course, hilarious. Um, uh,

• 1:04:08Jordi Hays?

  Well, I mean, this is what that company, this is what Basic Capital is doing. They're basically

• 1:04:13John Coogan?

  Oh, they are.

• 1:04:14Jordi Hays?

  Bringing leverage to the, to the people.

• 1:04:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Jordi Hays?

  For your 401K.

• 1:04:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, pay later. Um, it's very interesting. Yeah, I mean, we talked to Max Levchin at Affirm. We've talked to Sebastian at Klarna, uh, and, uh, Affirm's doing very well. So that probably bodes well for Klarna going out. At the same time, it's oddly competitive. It, it's kind of shocking to me that there's, that there's such a duopoly here and, and one company hasn't run away with it. Like Shopify has really compounded and compounded and compounded and, and, uh, and really defeated a lot of the other e-commerce platforms. But in terms of the, the payment processors, it's been much more oligopolistic. Maybe it's just because the, uh, the dynamic of the buyer wants to bid the two against each other. So like the Stripe, Adyen dynamic kind of comes to Klarna and Affirm.

• 1:05:00John Coogan?

  Um, but both really big companies will get to see the financials and, uh, and dig into Klarna as they go out.

• 1:05:07Jordi Hays?

  Klarna's total revenue in 2024 was 2.8 billion.

• 1:05:10John Coogan?

  2.8 billion, okay.

• 1:05:12Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but Firm's 2024 revenue was 2.3 billion.

• 1:05:16John Coogan?

  Wow, they're really close.

• 1:05:17Jordi Hays?

  Klarna made a very narrow profit in 2024, $21 million.

• 1:05:21John Coogan?

  21 million?

• 1:05:22Jordi Hays?

  Let's give it up for that. Love to see it.

• 1:05:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:25Jordi Hays?

  Um, and, uh, so yeah, they've, they've been cutting, uh, but, uh,

• 1:05:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Jordi Hays?

  I mean, credit to Klarna for, for getting to this scale while competing against, uh, Max Levchin.

• 1:05:36John Coogan?

  It is crazy.

• 1:05:37Jordi Hays?

  That is like a night, nightmare, uh,

• 1:05:39John Coogan?

  Wait, there's also

• 1:05:39Jordi Hays?

  Nightmare competitor.

• 1:05:40John Coogan?

  There's also something very, very odd about the, the Klarna and Adyen are both European companies, correct? And they both compete with like Stripe and, and Affirm, these like sort of PayPal mafia-esque Silicon Valley firms that have been doing it the very Silicon Valley way. Like there's this odd dynamic that's in both, both companies.

• 1:06:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01John Coogan?

  Um,

• 1:06:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so one of the things cutting into Klarna's profitability is their, uh, Just like credit losses. They lost half a billion dollars last year, which is more than they spent on sales and marketing.

• 1:06:14John Coogan?

  Interesting. And is that just because people sign up for Klarna, they do the buy now, pay later thing, and then they just bail?

• 1:06:20Jordi Hays?

  Like they buy a burrito and they say, see ya.

• 1:06:22John Coogan?

  Does that get sent to collections? I imagine it does, but eventually it doesn't get collected.

• 1:06:26Jordi Hays?

  Well, I think part of their value, wasn't there part of their value prop is that it's not tied to your...

• 1:06:30John Coogan?

  Okay. It's just like completely optional to pay. Like, it has to hurt your credit score, right? I imagine. Like, I, I, I mean, maybe it goes into some sort of database, but the idea that you could just go around and use buy now, pay later willy nilly and never pay your later part does not seem, does not seem sustainable. Anyway, if you're looking to slice up a bunch of financial data, do it on Julius. What analysis do you want to run? Chat with your data and get expert level insights in seconds. It's the AI data and analyst that works for you, used by Princeton, BCG, and Zepier.

• 1:07:07Jordi Hays?

  Klarna, get on Julius before you go public.

• 1:07:10John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 1:07:10Jordi Hays?

  Thank us later.

• 1:07:11John Coogan?

  For sure. Let's go to this tier list by Mert Helius dev. He's been on the show, good friend. He says, a city tier list that will trigger everyone but is true. S tier is Moscow and Tokyo. A tier is NYC. B tier is Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Singapore, Hong Kong, Istanbul, St. Petersburg, Amsterdam, San Francisco, Kuala Lumpur, and Austin. C tier is Paris, Berlin, Lisbon, Seoul, Chicago, and Rome. D tier is Los Angeles. Come on, Mert, you're doing us dirty here, of course.

• 1:07:43Jordi Hays?

  I, I, I think that, I think that LA is definitely a D tier city. I, I love living in Los Angeles County, but the city, the city itself is mid.

• 1:07:55John Coogan?

  Yeah. We should do a, we should do our own tier list. Can you wipe that down, Tyler?

• 1:08:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, start working on a tier list.

• 1:08:02John Coogan?

  Just, just draw up the, the S, A, B, C, D, F, and, and we'll fill in them. We'll throw them out. This is so funny because one of the first replies, SF not even on the list is accurate, and SF is on the list in B tier. Reading comprehension, not quite there, Sam, but good job. I like the American flag in your bio.

• 1:08:26Jordi Hays?

  Putting, putting, putting Austin above...

• 1:08:30Jordi Hays?

  Places like Paris and Berlin.

• 1:08:32John Coogan?

  It's a good mog.

• 1:08:32Jordi Hays?

  And LA.

• 1:08:33John Coogan?

  He did a really good job of like, of like.

• 1:08:35Jordi Hays?

  No, this is the perfect post.

• 1:08:36John Coogan?

  It is a great post.

• 1:08:37Jordi Hays?

  Like, you'll get people that agree and people that disagree, and it's perfectly controversial.

• 1:08:41John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:08:44Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, I got a text from a financial technology expert that says, "Most BNPL providers don't report to bureaus because the bureau systems haven't been able to use the data intelligently. They've tried to fix, but they're a cluster F." So that's interesting. Klarn is like, "Hey, we got a lot of people." I mean, the thing that Klarn can obviously do is say, like, if somebody buys a burrito and doesn't pay for it.

• 1:09:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:09Jordi Hays?

  They can just, like, not work with that.

• 1:09:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, so when you try and hit it the second time, you don't get a chance.

• 1:09:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and I'd say most consumers would be like, "I want to keep having options."

• 1:09:17John Coogan?

  Options, yeah.

• 1:09:18Jordi Hays?

  So I could probably pay it back.

• 1:09:20John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, there was a timeline was in turmoil, a little battle between the Scrote Goat and Nikita Beer. Very interesting. Nikita's having a hilarious time on X. I feel like.

• 1:09:31Jordi Hays?

  He's on an absolute roll. I'm so happy that, I'm so happy that he took.

• 1:09:36John Coogan?

  It's really the best. It's just the best, like, narrative arc.

• 1:09:40Jordi Hays?

  Basically poster and residence.

• 1:09:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Jordi Hays?

  But then gets to mold the platform.

• 1:09:45John Coogan?

  Totally. And I mean, I think I've been having a good time. I haven't noticed any, like, really negative changes. It seems like there's some intractable problems.

• 1:09:53Jordi Hays?

  Dude, it's great. Did you notice the changes they made on video? Like, they totally updated the UI on video.

• 1:09:59John Coogan?

  Oh, really? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, with the buttons down at the bottom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.

• 1:10:05John Coogan?

  Let's do the tier list now.

• 1:10:07Jordi Hays?

  I like how this, this account though is rocketing, you know, actually adding followers now for getting in this war.

• 1:10:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Jordi Hays?

  And this is Nikita's advice, remember? He said, "If you're a tiny account on Twitter."

• 1:10:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:18Jordi Hays?

  "The best thing you can do is go and pick a fight with the biggest account you can find."

• 1:10:22John Coogan?

  And that's exactly what this guy's doing. It's so good. So, yeah, Scrote Goat says, like, "I have, I have eight followers, and they're all bots, and, and the algorithm's keeping my reach from being like, you know, like, I'm not getting enough reach. The only way to get reach is via comments. Nine followers is a byproduct of no reach." And Nikita says, "Maybe the Scrote Goat is not the best name for your account." He's, "Nah, man. Like, if anything, it's an all-timer. People should follow it just for the name." And, and it worked. And Scrote Goat said, "The truth always wins," and Nikita Beer. Got 600 likes and I checked the account, had a couple hundred followers. So we might be looking at a future, future Hall of Fame poster.

• 1:11:06John Coogan?

  Okay, Tyler, uh, let's, uh, let's do the tier list. I want to go first and then you can, you can do your tier list. Maybe we can just do a little line down the center. Can you do a line down the center like, uh, after the city tier list? Like a little bit farther, a little bit farther so that, uh, we can put mine. Okay, so, um, yeah, that's fine. So, uh, I'll, I'll start with F tier. I'll agree with Mert. I'll put London in F tier, just like Mert did. And, uh, Mert also has Toronto and Brussels. He has it in D tier. I'll, I'll leave Toronto and Brussels in F tier as well.

• 1:11:45John Coogan?

  So for me, I think we're good. Yeah. Uh, so Toronto, uh, so put Toronto and Brussels in F tier. And for, then for LA.

• 1:11:53Jordi Hays?

  Have you been to Toronto?

• 1:11:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, terrible. Then Los Angeles, he put it in D tier. I'll actually go S tier. I love LA. It's fantastic. I'll put LA there. Then, uh, in C tier, he has Paris, Berlin, Lisbon, Seoul and Rome. Uh, I would, it's a little controversial, I would put those in F tier. So I'd put Paris, Berlin, Lisbon, Seoul. So Paris, Berlin, Lisbon, Seoul and Rome, all in F tier. Then, uh, for in B tier, in, in B tier, he put San Francisco and Austin. I'd put those in S tier. So put those up there.

• 1:12:31John Coogan?

  And then he put Dubai in B tier. Uh, this is gonna be a little controversial, but I would put Dubai in F tier. Yeah. He also put Hong Kong in B tier.

• 1:12:41Jordi Hays?

  Sensing a pattern.

• 1:12:42John Coogan?

  I think that's F tier. Let's put Hong Kong down there. And then also, uh, Istanbul, I'd put that in F tier. And then New York City, he put it in A tier. I'd put it in S tier. And then also I'd, I'd also add, uh, Phoenix in S tier and, uh, Philadelphia. Just put Philly and then, uh, San Diego. I mean, have you been to San Diego? I absolutely put it in S tier. And then Dallas, let's put Dallas in S tier. And you got Chicago? Oh, you missed Chicago. Chicago's obviously S tier. Okay, cool. Yeah, we're good. And then Moscow and Tokyo, he had them in S tier. Let's go D tier. Let's go D tier. D tier, no, no.

• 1:13:23Jordi Hays?

  Oh, no, no, no, no. Tyler, what are you doing? What are you doing?

• 1:13:26John Coogan?

  D tier, Moscow and Tokyo. We'll give them a bone. And so this is kind of like how I think of the city's tier list, but.

• 1:13:32Jordi Hays?

  It's how your view of the world.

• 1:13:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, this is kind of my worldview right now. And so, yeah, I mean, you can see some patterns.

• 1:13:39Jordi Hays?

  You're probably, the next time your passport expires, you probably won't even renew it, right? Like, what do I need a passport for? Why would I?

• 1:13:46John Coogan?

  I would never leave.

• 1:13:47Jordi Hays?

  I have, I have a, a long list of S tier cities.

• 1:13:50John Coogan?

  I could be in Philly.

• 1:13:51Jordi Hays?

  I could be in Philly right now.

• 1:13:52John Coogan?

  Why would I go to Tokyo?

• 1:13:52Jordi Hays?

  Why would I, why would I go to?

• 1:13:54John Coogan?

  I'd go to London.

• 1:13:56Jordi Hays?

  London. Paris. Rome.

• 1:13:59John Coogan?

  And I could be in Baltimore. The London of, of Pennsylvania. Wait, where, Maryland?

• 1:14:05Jordi Hays?

  The London of the East.

• 1:14:06John Coogan?

  Baltimore, Maryland.

• 1:14:09John Coogan?

  Anyway, what about you, Jordy? Do you want to, do you want to take a crack at it?

• 1:14:12Jordi Hays?

  I don't think I, I don't think I could.

• 1:14:13John Coogan?

  You're going to do my tier list?

• 1:14:15Jordi Hays?

  I don't think I can. I, I don't think, my, my only controversial, I mean, I don't.

• 1:14:19John Coogan?

  Oh, we got, we got some questions in the chat. How are we feeling about Charlotte, North Carolina?

• 1:14:23Jordi Hays?

  S tier, for sure.

• 1:14:25John Coogan?

  I think it's S tier. Yeah, Charlotte is probably S tier. It's part of the, isn't it part of the research triangle? It's one of the greatest places to, New Orleans. How did we miss NOLA? No one in the S tier. New Orleans is definitely S tier. Oh, Mark says it's not S tier. Maybe we got to move it down to A tier. I don't know. NOLA is not that good.

• 1:14:48Jordi Hays?

  That the lonely, lonely A tier city.

• 1:14:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, okay, anyway.

• 1:14:53Jordi Hays?

  Oh, good stuff.

• 1:14:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, and then, also.

• 1:14:57Jordi Hays?

  That, that LA is S tier in the, in that it's sunny.

• 1:15:02John Coogan?

  That we're here.

• 1:15:03Jordi Hays?

  Hundreds, hundreds of days a year. And it's absolutely stunning, but, but functionally, it's a terrible city.

• 1:15:10John Coogan?

  Here's a tough one. Where would you put Pyongyang?

• 1:15:15John Coogan?

  People love Pyongyang.

• 1:15:15Jordi Hays?

  I love PIF.

• 1:15:16John Coogan?

  Love PIF.

• 1:15:17Jordi Hays?

  The Pyongyang Investment Fund.

• 1:15:19John Coogan?

  Yep. Highly authoritarian. Some people are into that these days.

• 1:15:24Jordi Hays?

  Limited food options.

• 1:15:26John Coogan?

  I don't think you could put Pyongyang in S tier.

• 1:15:29Jordi Hays?

  But I think it's definitely within the, in the top.

• 1:15:31John Coogan?

  Do you remember when, uh, when 4chan tried to send Justin Bieber to Pyongyang? Do you see this?

• 1:15:37Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 1:15:37John Coogan?

  Oh, this is amazing. This is like one of the greatest, like the internet does something funny. So Justin Bieber put up a poll on, online saying, I will pick my next tour date. I'm going on a world tour. I'll let the fans vote. And if the fans vote for a particular city, I'll go to that city. And so of course, the fans voted for North Korea. You gotta go to North Korea. And it was like a classic lesson in like, do not let the internet decide anything.

• 1:16:02Jordi Hays?

  You could pick any, you could.

• 1:16:03John Coogan?

  Yeah, you could pick any city.

• 1:16:04Jordi Hays?

  Suggest a city.

• 1:16:05John Coogan?

  You'd suggest any city. And he was like, I'll go where the fans want me to go. Where do I have the most fans?

• 1:16:10Jordi Hays?

  North Korea is.

• 1:16:11John Coogan?

  Of course, the fans were like, go to North Korea. And he had to be like, I'm not going to North Korea. Anyway, thank you for doing the city tier list. Now let me tell you about TurboPuffer. Search every byte serverless.

• 1:16:21Jordi Hays?

  We puffin'.

• 1:16:22John Coogan?

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• 1:16:31Jordi Hays?

  You wanna be like Cursor, you wanna be like Notion, you wanna be like Linear.

• 1:16:33John Coogan?

  That, can we pull that up again? I, I.

• 1:16:36Jordi Hays?

  Look at this website.

• 1:16:36John Coogan?

  This is honestly the biggest reason why I was excited to partner with them. Was you have to go to their website. It's so beautifully designed and it's so, the layout is awesome.

• 1:16:47Jordi Hays?

  We officially puffin'.

• 1:16:50John Coogan?

  We're puffin', baby.

• 1:16:51Jordi Hays?

  And you should too.

• 1:16:52John Coogan?

  Yeah. Go check out TurboPuffer.

• 1:16:56John Coogan?

  Anyway, let's move on to another Nikita post.

• 1:16:59Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 1:16:59John Coogan?

  Nikita says.

• 1:17:00Jordi Hays?

  Nikita's, uh, apparently gets a lot of DMs from people that gets their accounts suspended for spam. They say, I wasn't spamming. I was just commenting the same thing on every post regardless of the context.

• 1:17:13Jordi Hays?

  Elizabeth Holmes says, Dear Nikita, rumors swirl that my account's been hijacked for a crypto rug pull. Not true, it hasn't. Please don't suspend me unless I start shilling a coin, for then it's surely compromised. Thank you for your attention to this matter. This is- We gotta know, we gotta know. I mean, there's, she's mixing a lot of stuff in here.

• 1:17:31John Coogan?

  So, my theory is that it's the husband. I don't think that, I think it's hard to get access to a phone and post from prison. We should have Martin Scraley on again to discuss, like, the theories behind what's going on here.

• 1:17:44Jordi Hays?

  Could she, could she get a printed out, like, you know, could she get a hundred posts a day delivered to her that are just like-

• 1:17:51John Coogan?

  Absolutely. You can get fan mail, letters.

• 1:17:53Jordi Hays?

  And then she could write back-

• 1:17:54John Coogan?

  Replies, absolutely.

• 1:17:55Jordi Hays?

  Letters, one by one.

• 1:17:56John Coogan?

  What are the timestamps on here? Two hours ago, 8:45 a.m. It feels like it's too quick of a turnaround. At the same time, there have been reports of, of, like, mob bosses, gang members in prison who get access to cell phones that get smuggled in. I mean, all sorts of stuff gets smuggled into prisons. They're not the most secure places. They're designed to keep people in, not necessarily keep everything out. So they bribe someone, they get something in. And there was a case where, I believe in LA, there was a gang member who was calling hits on people from prison, like, organizing crimes from inside the clink. So, not very good. And, yes, SBF did do the pod from prison. I'm not sure how they did that. It might have been over the prison phone.

• 1:18:39Jordi Hays?

  No, but he was, he got in trouble at the prison for doing that.

• 1:18:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, but I don't actually know the rules. Like, are you allowed to do pods in prison over the cellphone? Like, I, I don't, can you record that? It feels like building, I know that after you go to prison, you can't sell your life rights. Like, you can't make a bunch of money off of selling the rights to your movie or your book. Like, I, I think it just doesn't work like that. I actually don't know enough about it. We should, we should dig in much more and do a whole deep dive. Tyler, did you have something else that you want to, do you want to share on Peter Elizabeth Holmes?

• 1:19:06Jordi Hays?

  I was just gonna bring up the SBF thing. Cause, I mean, he had a laptop, so I don't know.

• 1:19:09John Coogan?

  He had a full laptop? But was he posting too? Is he still posting? I don't know. If he was, it like the novelty kind of like wore off for sure.

• 1:19:19John Coogan?

  Either way, Elizabeth Holmes got to clean up her SEO results. She's got to get her brand mentioned in ChatGPT. No, she doesn't. But serious businesses do, and serious businesses need to use Profound.

• 1:19:30Jordi Hays?

  You are a serious business.

• 1:19:32John Coogan?

  Mentioned in ChatGPT. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands. More important than ever in the age of agentic commerce. What's coming is a lot of consumers buying a lot of things through.

• 1:19:43Jordi Hays?

  Discovering, learning.

• 1:19:44John Coogan?

  Through LLMs.

• 1:19:45Jordi Hays?

  Being recommended.

• 1:19:46John Coogan?

  You need to know how you're showing up, and Profound helps you do that. So.

• 1:19:50Jordi Hays?

  This was, this is crazy. Morning Brew.

• 1:19:53John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:19:54Jordi Hays?

  Has some, a highlight from The Athletic. Stream East, the world's largest illegal sports streaming platform, shut down in a sting. They had eighty unauthorized domains, one hundred and thirty-six million average monthly visits, and one point six billion total visits in the last year. The digital equivalent of catching Blackbeard.

• 1:20:14John Coogan?

  Whoever writes for Morning Brew, fantastic, fantastic post.

• 1:20:17Jordi Hays?

  So.

• 1:20:20Jordi Hays?

  Stream East was the bane of Dana White's existence.

• 1:20:24John Coogan?

  UFC, I'm sure.

• 1:20:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so a lot of, a lot of the pay-per-views were streamed over here, and this, I would assume that this platform alone, you know, accounted for a billion plus of like lost revenue for the UFC. It's been operating for years. Anybody from anywhere in the world could just tune in and watch a pay-per-view. And I think that this was like a game of whack-a-mole, like they had all these different domains they'd be buying. Every, every time they spin up a new domain, they have one getting shut down, and, and, and people are just like, you know.

• 1:20:59John Coogan?

  I wonder if they're, this is, this is oddly timed, because if you think about it, like what's, what's coming in the next couple of weeks that would be illegally streamed? That's not going to be publicly streamed, that everyone's going to want to watch.

• 1:21:14John Coogan?

  It's obviously the Antichrist lectures in San Francisco, Peter Thiel's hosting.

• 1:21:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18John Coogan?

  So they shut that down. They shut down this because people were gonna go there with a phone and livestream it. But you know, everything's off the record, right? What do you think Tyler? Would you be tuning in on Stream East, breaking the rules?

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so like I personally have a, I have a couple guys there who are going, I have a plug, you know?

• 1:21:33John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  My personal streaming, but yeah.

• 1:21:35John Coogan?

  Oh, so they're gonna like FaceTime you and you can just watch?

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  Well, it'll be sitting in their pocket.

• 1:21:39John Coogan?

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna reveal.

• 1:21:40John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to think of like, uh, like, why am I not familiar with this? Why am I, this is the first time I'm hearing about Stream East. It's because like, well, I don't watch sports at all and I, uh, and I don't, and I can't think of anything that I would want to watch that's behind, I've never bought a pay-per-view in my life. I did the first, literally the first.

• 1:22:03Jordi Hays?

  Just reload off of Rob and David and I?

• 1:22:06John Coogan?

  Yep, yep, I reload off of you for sure.

• 1:22:07Jordi Hays?

  Nice dude, nice.

• 1:22:08John Coogan?

  For sure. And, and other than that, I mean, are there other, are there, was there entire business just like UFC piracy? Like what else is?

• 1:22:17Jordi Hays?

  No, no, all sports. Because there's people that don't have cable.

• 1:22:20John Coogan?

  Oh, so you want to watch the NFL game?

• 1:22:22Jordi Hays?

  Basketball, baseball.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  Yes, so like I, I also don't really watch sports, but at, at school, in college, Stream East is like, I mean, everyone knows Stream East. Like that's like basically the default, rather than, I mean, some people have like the cable equivalent or something.

• 1:22:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  But yeah, every UFC, every football game.

• 1:22:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:40Jordi Hays?

  And they were monetizing like crazy, right? Cause they have 136 million visits. Imagine how much sports betting, like signups they can drive.

• 1:22:46John Coogan?

  Can you pull a list of all your friends who are using Stream East so we can contact the authorities and, and make sure that they?

• 1:22:51Jordi Hays?

  Let's include them in the sting.

• 1:22:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, let's get, uh, they owe Dana White money and, uh, we're gonna collect, okay? Uh, let's make that.

• 1:22:58Jordi Hays?

  Or Uncle Dana.

• 1:22:59John Coogan?

  You know, I have a funny story. Uh, I had a buddy in college who, uh, was very much into watching football. Did not have cable and he and I go over to his like Harvard dorm room and he pulls up a website and he's like, I can watch sports on here. I can watch my Raiders. Uh, even though they're not even like, like the Raiders game is so local to, I guess they were in Oakland at the time, uh, that like, even if you paid, you'd have to be on like the highest tier of NFL Sunday ticket to get access to a cross-country game. Like you could, like, if you were, if you were at school in Boston, you could get like NESN, the local regional sports network, New England Sports Network, and you could see the Patriots games. Uh, and

• 1:23:41John Coogan?

  then the local news channel or the local sports channel would show you like the local games. Like you'd probably see like the, I don't know, the New York, what is it? The Giants, like they'd play and like they'd be local, so they'd be played, but you couldn't just go see the Raiders unless you paid the highest tier. It was really expensive. No one wanted to pay. And so he pull, he gets on his laptop, he pulls up this website and he's like, I can watch the Raiders on this website. Do you know what website it was? Justin.tv.

• 1:24:06Jordi Hays?

  No way.

• 1:24:06John Coogan?

  Yeah. And, and the, it was the funniest thing because he, he explains it to me. He's like, yeah, anyone can go on Justin TV. This is pre-Twitch.

• 1:24:14Jordi Hays?

  They're saying we should, we should citizen's arrest Tyler's friends for, for using Streamies.

• 1:24:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, guys, no show tomorrow. We're gonna be citizen's arresting.

• 1:24:23John Coogan?

  Tell them that we're hiring like tons of interns and they pay really high and like they gotta get out here. Just, it's a one week.

• 1:24:29Jordi Hays?

  We'll arrest, we'll do citizen's arrest on the stream in support of Dana White.

• 1:24:33John Coogan?

  But so, so my buddy pulls up Justin TV and is like, yeah.

• 1:24:36Jordi Hays?

  Apparently, uh, Mark, Mark in the chat says LeBron uses Streamies. I guess he was, was, was he like, I feel like I remember this. Was he like?

• 1:24:43John Coogan?

  Oh, I've seen this. Well, a lot of people do this. Oh, F1 was big on Streamies. Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, a lot of people, uh, do it just because it's a hassle to figure out how to do the pay, how to pay.

• 1:24:53Jordi Hays?

  Trey says, I would never watch Streamies because then I wouldn't see the local ads. That's an affront to the advertising industry.

• 1:24:59John Coogan?

  Thank you.

• 1:25:00Jordi Hays?

  Thank you, Trey.

• 1:25:00John Coogan?

  Thank you, Trey.

• 1:25:01Jordi Hays?

  Thank you for supporting big television advertising.

• 1:25:04John Coogan?

  So my buddy's watching Justin TV. Justin TV had all sorts of crazy, because anyone could spin up a stream. So people would do all sorts of crazy stuff. The gaming thing was the first intersection of like, oh wow, this is legal and growing and it's a niche that it, no one else is catering to. Like G4 TV existed, which was a TV channel just for video games. And it was like scripted content and talk shows and interview shows. They had a whole bunch of stuff, but, uh, but there wasn't that much video game content. So like, Like they eventually pivoted into Twitch and figured out that was the right thing. But before they pivoted, Justin TV was playing whack a mole with all the scammers, all the illegal streams, and it was like a huge hassle. And of course, you get adult content and all sorts of stuff. But the funny thing-

• 1:25:45Jordi Hays?

  And it's a interesting challenge for a platform like that, that's trying to bootstrap itself and get a lot of content and users, because that's some of the most in-demand content is like an NFL game.

• 1:25:56John Coogan?

  Look at the visits on this. Stream East had 136 million average-

• 1:26:00Jordi Hays?

  They're like, we gotta, we gotta take, we gotta knock out these, these illegal streams. But at the same time-

• 1:26:05John Coogan?

  Isn't that more than all of F1 combined? Or something like that?

• 1:26:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think they get-

• 1:26:09John Coogan?

  Wasn't F1 at like 100 million or something like that?

• 1:26:11Jordi Hays?

  No, they, they get like a few million live viewers in the US.

• 1:26:16John Coogan?

  And then, and then an incremental 100 million on Stream East. And so, yeah, they should be selling those ads. Hey, if you're putting your logo on a F1 car, it's going to be seen on Stream East, so you gotta pay up. Anyway.

• 1:26:28Jordi Hays?

  Wait, this, should we, should we pull up this video? This hot mic moment?

• 1:26:32John Coogan?

  Yes, but I want to, I want to close out. So I, so my buddy is like, Justin TV is explaining to me, and he's like, he describes it to me, it's like, there's just a guy named Justin, and he has a website where you can watch this stuff. And didn't have this conception, and it kind of was that way, but really, it's like, there was a team behind it, and Emmett Shear was there, and a bunch of other-

• 1:26:51Jordi Hays?

  It probably wasn't Justin and Emmett.

• 1:26:53John Coogan?

  No, at that point, they probably had 10 or 20 people. But there was this, there was this moment in like 2007, 2008, where like, people didn't realize that websites were companies that had organizations and stocks and like, could become like massive, like Facebook, like, like, the, in 2005, when people were first introduced to Facebook, they were like, oh, it's like some kid at Harvard, like, put up a website.

• 1:27:12Jordi Hays?

  Justin was so early.

• 1:27:15John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, if you're trying to build the next great streaming platform, do it legally and do it using Linear. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products. Meet the system for modern software development. Streamline issues, projects, and product roadmaps. Start building on Linear. Let's pull up the hot mic moment on CTV. First, Truth Zone. Is this real, or is this, is this dubbed and faked? Like, this says this was picked up by Bloomberg. This seems crazy. I would like to know if this is real, but let's play it, and then we'll decide if it's real.

• 1:27:47Jordi Hays?

  Yep, Bloomberg.

• 1:27:48John Coogan?

  Confirmed?

• 1:27:51John Coogan?

  Okay, so this is Xi Jinping talking about-

• 1:27:52Jordi Hays?

  Wait, we can't see the subtitles.

• 1:28:01Jordi Hays?

  Okay, start it over.

• 1:28:03John Coogan?

  Yeah, what are the subtitles?

• 1:28:05Jordi Hays?

  No, they're here.

• 1:28:06John Coogan?

  Okay. Xi Jinping, what's he saying?

• 1:28:09Jordi Hays?

  "These days, seventy years old. Earlier, people rarely lived, but these days, seventy years, you're still a child."

• 1:28:14John Coogan?

  You're still a child!

• 1:28:19John Coogan?

  Putin speaks inaudible. Just walking. How are they picking this up on this microphone? This is so rough.

• 1:28:28Jordi Hays?

  "With the development of biotechnology, human organs can be continuously transplanted, and people can live younger and younger and even achieve immortality."

• 1:28:35John Coogan?

  Immortality. Wow, predictions are, this century, there's a chance of living to a hundred and fifty years old. That is crazy.

• 1:28:45Jordi Hays?

  She is, is... He's like, "I'm just getting started, actually."

• 1:28:48John Coogan?

  I'm down.

• 1:28:49Jordi Hays?

  Extremely bullish for New Limit, Jacob Kimmel.

• 1:28:52John Coogan?

  True, true. Extremely bullish. Speaking of old people, guess who the oldest billionaire in America is?

• 1:29:03John Coogan?

  His name's... or guess how old he is?

• 1:29:07John Coogan?

  The oldest billionaire in America-

• 1:29:08Jordi Hays?

  Ninety-four.

• 1:29:11John Coogan?

  You're ten years short.

• 1:29:13Jordi Hays?

  Hundred and four?

• 1:29:13John Coogan?

  Turns a hundred and four in September. He founded the insurer Mercury General in 1961. His name is George Joseph. We gotta get a founders episode on this guy if there isn't already one. That is an incredible run. Sixty-one. That's, that's what? Fifty years before Tyler was born? The chat's calling it BT before Tyler.

• 1:29:35Jordi Hays?

  BT.

• 1:29:36John Coogan?

  BT. The, the Journal has a fun article, "Deep Diving: All the Biggest Billionaires in America."

• 1:29:44Jordi Hays?

  He also has non-traditional background. He actually got his bachelor's degree at Harvard.

• 1:29:50John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:29:52John Coogan?

  The youngest to oldest anonymized mostly. The Koch and Koch Jr. are under 30. They're billionaires. Selena Gomez and Taylor Swift are under 40, while 86% of the billionaires are men. More than 150 out of the thousand that the Wall Street Journal collected are women, including Selena Gomez and Taylor Swift. Mark Zuckerberg's in his 40s, has a huge circle here on this graphic. Musk, Page, Bryk, these guys are all top in the charts. Elon Musk is at 423 billion, the next richest person. Jeff Bezos is worth 283 billion. Of course, 423 billion, there's only 300 million

• 1:30:37John Coogan?

  Americans, so that's enough to make every American a millionaire if he just gave his money away.

• 1:30:42Jordi Hays?

  That's how it works.

• 1:30:43John Coogan?

  But it's way better for him to keep it because he gets to do all the cool stuff with it.

• 1:30:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:47John Coogan?

  Sick.

• 1:30:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:49John Coogan?

  Illinois Governor JB Pritzker and President Trump are among more than 360 billionaires who started with some inherited wealth.

• 1:30:57Jordi Hays?

  Just a bit.

• 1:30:59John Coogan?

  Jensen Wong's on here. Steve Ballmer's on here. He's almost 70. The Waltons are on here, and they're in their 70s. Milken's on here. He's almost 80. What a run to go to jail, come out, still hold on to a billion. Not bad. Larry Ellison's in his 80s. Gaffin's on here. George Lucas is on here. It's a murderer's row. You love it. Rockefeller? There's still a Rockefeller? Who's alive? Who's Rockefeller?

• 1:31:25Jordi Hays?

  So, did you, did you, you didn't cover this. Collectively, these people, you were joking, but these people are worth 5.7 trillion. That's enough wealth to buy a Corvette Stingray convertible for every 65-plus US driver.

• 1:31:39John Coogan?

  Wait, did you actually do this, Matt?

• 1:31:40Jordi Hays?

  No, they, they do.

• 1:31:40John Coogan?

  The Journal did this?

• 1:31:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:41John Coogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:31:42Jordi Hays?

  So, that, that's 4.7 trillion. A four-year Harvard tuition, room and board for 1 million students, plus $10,000 annual stipend, only 388 billion.

• 1:31:51John Coogan?

  How much, how much are they worth in total?

• 1:31:54Jordi Hays?

  5.7 trillion.

• 1:31:58Jordi Hays?

  I am deaf.

• 1:31:59John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 1:32:00Jordi Hays?

  All the stock in McDonald's, Delta Airlines, Ford and Lululemon.

• 1:32:04John Coogan?

  There we go.

• 1:32:05Jordi Hays?

  And every residential property in Chicago, 245 billion with 8 billion to spare. That was not that impressive.

• 1:32:12John Coogan?

  This is a weird stat from the Journal. So they collected, they collected what? A thousand, 1,135 billionaires.

• 1:32:21Jordi Hays?

  So, so I gotta put their stats in the true zone because if you tried to buy a Corvette Stingray for every 65 plus US driver.

• 1:32:29John Coogan?

  Oh, it's gonna drive the market.

• 1:32:30Jordi Hays?

  The price is gonna go way, way, way up.

• 1:32:33John Coogan?

  They're gonna be so scarce.

• 1:32:33Jordi Hays?

  You're gonna, you're gonna get, you're gonna hit real scarcity, real, real quick.

• 1:32:39John Coogan?

  You might be able to lease a Model 3 for everyone.

• 1:32:41Jordi Hays?

  But, but is this not like an incredibly, like you could get a Corvette for every American 65 plus, a four-year degree for 1 million students, you could buy McDonald's, Delta, Ford and Lululemon and some property in Chicago? And that's, that's, that's the Journal saying like, look how much, how much they have to spare.

• 1:33:01John Coogan?

  Can you imagine how long it would take to calculate all the sales tax for all those Corvette Stingray purchases?

• 1:33:07Jordi Hays?

  I don't even wanna think about it. I'd rather spend five minutes.

• 1:33:09John Coogan?

  I'd rather spend five minutes with numeral, sales tax and autopilot, spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax and applies. In fact, it's the only way you could actually execute that deal to buy 300 million Corvette Stingrays. But this is a funny stat. So billionaires are everywhere. So they, they, they, they track 1,000 billionaires, right? In the US, they own more than 3,000 homes? That's only three per person? I feel like that's not that many. Like if you're a billionaire and a house is like 10, 20 million.

• 1:33:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, these must be residential properties, but still that seems extremely low.

• 1:33:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, it seems like the data was not like widely available. I feel like they must have like, oh, that's only what they could like pull together, but there's a lot more homes. A lot of these billionaires are not. Like 20 homes just in Palo Alto.

• 1:33:53Jordi Hays?

  A lot of these, only, only a third of them inherited wealth, meaning that, that the other 700 or so are not beating the American dream allegations.

• 1:34:05Jordi Hays?

  This is the real headline here. 700 billionaires in America are not beating the American dream allegation. They were born, they didn't inherit anything, and they created billions of dollars of wealth.

• 1:34:15John Coogan?

  They're not beating the allegations.

• 1:34:16Jordi Hays?

  They're not beating the allegations. They are living the American dream.

• 1:34:19John Coogan?

  They're living the American dream.

• 1:34:20Jordi Hays?

  They can't deny it.

• 1:34:21John Coogan?

  Started without inherited wealth.

• 1:34:22Jordi Hays?

  With nothing.

• 1:34:22John Coogan?

  And now they own...

• 1:34:23Jordi Hays?

  Built empire.

• 1:34:24John Coogan?

  Now they own not one, not two, but three homes on average. What's funny is, I feel like I heard this story about like Bill Gates owns like a thousand homes or something like that, or like all the land or whatever, like isn't there one...

• 1:34:35Jordi Hays?

  I know, I know a beaner.

• 1:34:36John Coogan?

  And we were talking about Ken Griffey, he owns 50 homes.

• 1:34:38Jordi Hays?

  You don't even have to be a beaner to be, to be just collecting homes on the fly, just browsing.

• 1:34:42John Coogan?

  I feel like I see a guy on Instagram every day, "Buy a fourplex, buy seven homes, rent them out, make a billion dollars."

• 1:34:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, well, I'm assuming this is like residential, so it's not like units.

• 1:34:52John Coogan?

  It does, it's like what they actually... Yeah, like one real estate developer billionaire would own more than 300 homes, you think. Isn't BlackRock counted? Doesn't BlackRock own like a bajillion homes or something like that? Isn't that the conspiracy theory?

• 1:35:03Jordi Hays?

  They own it. They own 105% of all the homes in America.

• 1:35:06John Coogan?

  But that's, that's just because they're counting the tents at Burning Man in BlackRock City as individual homes. If you take those out, I mean, like, you can't count a BlackRock tent as a BlackRock-owned home because it's not really a permanent home. It doesn't make any sense. I don't get it. Also, underrated alpha. If you're trying to be the only billionaire in a state, you gotta go to Wyoming and Alaska because there's no billionaires with primary businesses in Wyoming and Alaska.

• 1:35:38Jordi Hays?

  Primary business?

• 1:35:39John Coogan?

  Primary businesses. So like, you know...

• 1:35:41Jordi Hays?

  So just move your business there?

• 1:35:42John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, Alaska, it's, it's just sitting there, waiting. It is crazy that Wyoming, I feel like they're super like crypto-friendly. You'd think there'd be somebody who like went and built some massive thing there, but it hasn't happened, at least not yet.

• 1:35:55Jordi Hays?

  Jack on X said, "Costco should get into web services. Kirkland Cloud would clean up."

• 1:36:02John Coogan?

  It really would. I would be wrapping Kirkland Cloud. We would build on Kirkland.

• 1:36:06Jordi Hays?

  This is interesting. Sheil highlights German discount grocer Lidl.

• 1:36:10John Coogan?

  Lidl?

• 1:36:10Jordi Hays?

  Lidl, L-I-D-L.

• 1:36:12John Coogan?

  Okay, sure.

• 1:36:13Jordi Hays?

  Lidl.

• 1:36:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:14Jordi Hays?

  Built their own cloud infrastructure because of German data laws and now has a $2 billion revenue business selling it to other, ala AWS.

• 1:36:21John Coogan?

  It actually worked.

• 1:36:22Jordi Hays?

  If you're a retailer, get into cloud.

• 1:36:23John Coogan?

  Neo cloud.

• 1:36:24Jordi Hays?

  Get into cloud.

• 1:36:25John Coogan?

  Costco should do Neo cloud. Buy, buy GPUs by the bulk.

• 1:36:29Jordi Hays?

  By rack.

• 1:36:31John Coogan?

  Do you get this meme, the Doctor Strange tweet, or how I learned to love the RT just after the, uh, just after the Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin were caught on a hot mic? Uh, there's this meme of this woman looking at the screen and this is the, this is the, what would, which one meme?

• 1:36:49Jordi Hays?

  No, I don't, I missed, I missed the original meme. Tyler, you were born, uh, not too long ago.

• 1:36:53John Coogan?

  Do you understand this meme?

• 1:36:54Jordi Hays?

  Do you understand this meme, young man?

• 1:36:55Speaker 02

  When it's the woman looking at the screen?

• 1:36:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's like-

• 1:36:58John Coogan?

  It's from some Netflix documentary or Apple TV.

• 1:37:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I never watched the show, but-

• 1:37:03John Coogan?

  Me either.

• 1:37:05John Coogan?

  Yeah?

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I think it's like, it's just like a boomer meme. It's like, oh, what it, like, the old woman is like, doesn't understand the internet meme.

• 1:37:11Jordi Hays?

  Wow, okay. We are boomers because we don't understand the boomer meme.

• 1:37:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's kind of a meta boomer take. I don't know.

• 1:37:19Jordi Hays?

  It's a boomerang.

• 1:37:21John Coogan?

  Anyway.

• 1:37:21Jordi Hays?

  Comes right back at you.

• 1:37:22Speaker 02

  It's always like her looking at the screen is like, oh, what, what do they mean by this?

• 1:37:24John Coogan?

  I'm curious to know what the actual show is because like the original photo of that meme, it looked, it looked cinematic. It looked interesting and of course I have to watch 100% of the movies around here since Jordy isn't lifting his weight. Anyway, uh, do you see this, uh, interaction between, uh, Daniel Tenereau and Rune?

• 1:37:46Jordi Hays?

  Larry.

• 1:37:46John Coogan?

  Do you think this is real? So Daniel says hedge fund guys are so much more fun to spend time with than tech guys. Rigorous, irreverent and don't have their heads up their own butts. And Rune says, bro tweeted this five minutes after we got done hanging out. And do you think it's real? Do you think, do you think this is actually happening? He's trolling Rune or do you think this is just completely random? Rune's just like taking the opportunity to-

• 1:38:07Jordi Hays?

  I think Rune is in SF and I think, I think Daniel's in New York City.

• 1:38:11John Coogan?

  Rune's been on a little trip. He was in LA briefly. I didn't get a chance to meet up with him, but, um, do want to hang out with him soon.

• 1:38:19Jordi Hays?

  Hedge fund guys are serious guys.

• 1:38:21John Coogan?

  Serious? That's what I'm saying. He's saying irreverent. That's the opposite of serious.

• 1:38:25Jordi Hays?

  No, they're serious about making money. More serious than venture capital.

• 1:38:28John Coogan?

  This is the, the, what Jeremy Giffon take that, that investors are more interesting than founders? The Fox and the Hedgehog thing, right?

• 1:38:35Jordi Hays?

  Is that a public take?

• 1:38:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was at the founders, it was at the founders event with David Center. Which I don't know if that was ever streamed or released, so maybe it's not, but you're leaked, sorry, bro.

• 1:38:45Jordi Hays?

  I mean, yeah, founders that are, the average founder that is incredibly locked in knows a lot about their business and their market.

• 1:38:52John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:38:52Jordi Hays?

  Not a lot about other things.

• 1:38:54John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:38:54Jordi Hays?

  And it's more difficult to be a generational investor.

• 1:39:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:01Jordi Hays?

  You know, only knowing about it, it's super narrow.

• 1:39:03John Coogan?

  It's like the Fox and the Hedgehog, right? That's the, that's the analogy, the Fox knows a little bit about a lot of different things, the Hedgehog knows one big thing. That's like the mind, what's it called, like the mindset, the, ah, what was it called, like the, I don't know, framework, the mental model, the mental model that people talk about.

• 1:39:21Jordi Hays?

  Sort of spiky intelligence.

• 1:39:23John Coogan?

  The Hedgehog?

• 1:39:25John Coogan?

  That completely blows up the metaphor, because the metaphor is that the Hedgehog only knows one thing. And in fact, does not have spiky intelligence. Oh, I guess it does, you know, you're right. Spiky intelligence, because it's actually better now. That's fantastic, yeah, okay. Yeah, we need to expand on the Fox and the Hedgehog metaphor, for sure. Anyway, fin.ai, the number one AI agent for customer service, number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bake offs, number one ranking in G2. You want some spiky intelligence, spike that intelligence right into your customer service organization.

• 1:39:57Jordi Hays?

  Smart.

• 1:39:58John Coogan?

  It's the best place to spike the intelligence. Spike the football after you.

• 1:40:02Jordi Hays?

  Do it.

• 1:40:03John Coogan?

  Bring AI enabled service to your organization.

• 1:40:07Jordi Hays?

  Vittorio says, incredible white pill, scientist just mapped how aging rewires our genes. They found universal switches that control decline. Basically, aging is a coordinated epigenetic drift, of which we now have the atlas, we will solve aging in our lifetime.

• 1:40:22John Coogan?

  Maybe, maybe Putin and Xi Jinping were reading Vittorio.

• 1:40:26Jordi Hays?

  Okay, just pop, yeah, just, yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:28John Coogan?

  They probably follow Vittorio, and they were, and like, right before that clip started, they were like, oh, did you see what Vittorio posted? And they were like, yeah, we're gonna live to 150. Yeah, Victoria is like the best and that's where I get my news from.

• 1:40:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, just a couple seventy-two-year-old bros following Victoria.

• 1:40:44John Coogan?

  I like to think that they both, both Putin and Xi Jinping have anon on X through VPNs. They just scroll the timeline like the rest of us.

• 1:40:54Jordi Hays?

  I can see it.

• 1:40:54John Coogan?

  It's possible.

• 1:40:55Jordi Hays?

  It is funny i- if you assume that, that organ trans, you know, if they assume that organ transplants are the solution to immortality, why are they assuming like one fifty is the cap?

• 1:41:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:06Jordi Hays?

  Is it by that point, you're so, such a mix of different parts, it's not really you anymore?

• 1:41:10John Coogan?

  Well, you're a shipathesius.

• 1:41:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:12John Coogan?

  It's the shipathesius. You've been.

• 1:41:13Jordi Hays?

  You have no original parts anymore.

• 1:41:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:15Jordi Hays?

  So you're like entirely.

• 1:41:16John Coogan?

  I mean, that's the classic, classic question. If you, if you swap out everything but your brain, it feels like it's still you.

• 1:41:22Jordi Hays?

  Isn't there crazy, isn't there crazy stories around like heart transplants, like changing?

• 1:41:28John Coogan?

  Your soul?

• 1:41:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, your personality.

• 1:41:30John Coogan?

  Really? No way. I had no idea. I haven't seen that. Uh, what do you think, Tyler?

• 1:41:35Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, you're already a shipathesius because like your cells die.

• 1:41:37John Coogan?

  Oh, true.

• 1:41:38Speaker 02

  But I, I think, uh, it's more likely that Xi Jinping and Putin were, have been watching Dorkesh.

• 1:41:42John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:41:43Speaker 02

  And saw the Jacob Kimlops.

• 1:41:44John Coogan?

  That's probably true. That's probably true.

• 1:41:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so.

• 1:41:46John Coogan?

  I mean, I wouldn't be surprised since Dorkesh is like the foremost interview scholar on China right now, like.

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  I'm being serious.

• 1:41:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, a hundred percent, like.

• 1:41:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:55John Coogan?

  Uh, that makes sense. And apparently podcasts are booming there. Did you see that post about how, uh, like, uh, like China seems to be going through some sort of like boom of translated, uh, American podcast content that's doing very well there? So, stay tuned.

• 1:42:09Jordi Hays?

  I'm on Gemini. The idea, the idea that a heart transplant can change a person's personality is fascinating and controversial. The medical community broadly says, uh, that, that personality, these sort of psychological changes that happen after a heart surgery are due to trauma and side effects from the medication. But there's more speculative, um, uh, ideas around how potentially memories are stored in places other than the brain. And so, and, and what happens, there's, there's, there's people that report like personality changes that mirror the donors. The person that, that, that, uh, the original person's heart gets transferred into the new host and then, and then the new host starts being, being and acting more like the original donor, which is crazy.

• 1:42:55John Coogan?

  That is actually crazy.

• 1:42:56Jordi Hays?

  So anybody in the chat.

• 1:42:57John Coogan?

  Big if true.

• 1:42:59Jordi Hays?

  If you've had a, a heart transplant.

• 1:43:01John Coogan?

  Maybe we should get our hearts swapped. Like Face Off, which I have a movie you haven't seen, I know. Uh, but in the movie Face Off, Nicolas Cage and John Travolta take their faces off and swap faces because of some convoluted thing where one of them's a criminal and one of them's a, uh, one of them's a hardened criminal who has some information about where like a bomb will go off or something like that. And then the, and then the, the, the, the special agent needs to go undercover as the criminal. And so they swap faces. And then they, of course, the actors just play each other and then they go on a.

• 1:43:37Jordi Hays?

  I don't know what art, if we did a heart swap, it would just be, we, it'd just be more golden retriever mode activation. I don't know if, I don't know, I don't know how much it would do. Uh, do you want to, do you want to kick off this article about OpenAI?

• 1:43:50John Coogan?

  I, I would, I would rather tell you the full plot of Face Off, actually.

• 1:43:55Jordi Hays?

  Okay. Tell it to me. I'll be listening.

• 1:43:57John Coogan?

  Okay, perfect. So FBI special agent Sean Archer survives an assassination attempt by caster Troy, a terrorist for hire, but the bullet kills his son, Michael. Archer then engages in an extended vendetta against Troy. It culminates six years later in his teen ambushing Troy, who is with his younger brother and accomplice, uh, Polu, Palux? On a remote desert airstrip, Troy goads Archer by saying he knows of a bomb that is located somewhere in Los Angeles and is set to explode in a, in a few days. I was correct about the bomb. Uh, before Archer can learn more, Troy is knocked unconscious and falls into a coma. Uh, Pablo, Pablo, Palux? I need to figure out how to, how to pronounce that. Uh, the guy in custody affirms that

• 1:44:41John Coogan?

  the bomb is real, but refuses to reveal its, its, its location. Um, in secret, Archer reluctantly undergoes a highly experimental face transplant procedure by Dr. Malcolm Walsh to take on caster Troy's face, voice and appearance. Archer as Troy is taken to the same high security prison where Pablo is being held in order to obtain information on the bomb's location. Troy.

• 1:45:05Jordi Hays?

  We've got some visuals for you, John.

• 1:45:06John Coogan?

  Oh, you got it? Yeah, this is great. Troy unexpectedly awakens from his coma and discovers that his face is missing. He calls his gang and they force Dr. Walsh to transplant transplant Archer's face onto him. Meanwhile, Archer successfully learns the bomb's location from Pablo before being informed that he has a visitor. Anticipating a reunion with his colleague and return to his normal life, Archer instead finds Troy wearing his face. Upon revealing, he has murdered everyone else who knows about the face transplant. Troy gleefully informs Archer that he looks forward to running his FBI career and ravishing his wife. That's a great film. It's a classic 90s. Is it 90s? When did this come out? 1997. Thriller. You gotta watch it. It's the best.

• 1:45:51Speaker 02

  I'll add it to my list.

• 1:45:53John Coogan?

  You should, you should. For when the singularity hits. Do we have the singularity tracker up and running yet? Or is it working, Tyler? What do we got? How many days until?

• 1:46:01Speaker 02

  Right now it's at 344.

• 1:46:04John Coogan?

  344 days? 344 days until what? What are we saying? Until AGI?

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  Till AGI.

• 1:46:13John Coogan?

  Till the singularity?

• 1:46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:15John Coogan?

  You need a light on that.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  Tyler, hold it up. We can't really see it.

• 1:46:18John Coogan?

  Yeah, you need a light. You need a light on that. But we got a ticker. We got a, an analog date tracker. We will be tracking the amount of days until the singularity. Sam Altman said that the singularity is just a few thousand days away. Wasn't that what he said? How did, how did Sam Altman exactly describe the few thousand days? He said, "Superintelligence is a few thousand days away." Superintelligent AI. So that's ASI. So AGI is here essentially. Let's see, thousand days. So, "Superintelligence is a few thousand days away."

• 1:47:01John Coogan?

  According to Sam Altman, Tyler Cosgrove has a much shorter timeline, apparently just 300 days. We're booting up for ASI in, in 300 days. Yeah, we gotta do better on the lighting here. We're getting some crazy reflections in that thing. Maybe we need to take off the front, you know? Take off the glass so we can just see it fully. But, anyway, realistically, how many days do you think should go on there, Tyler?

• 1:47:30John Coogan?

  Timeline to ASI.

• 1:47:31Jordi Hays?

  ASI.

• 1:47:32John Coogan?

  It's super intelligence. Sam Altman puts it a few thousand days. I count a few as three. A few is three. A couple is two. What's a few is three. What do you think a few means? Do you think a few could be four? How many is a few?

• 1:47:50Jordi Hays?

  I would, I would maybe put.

• 1:47:51John Coogan?

  More than two, but less than a significant amount. A couple often implies two. A few usually starts at three or more, which can extend to small, indeterminate quality that is not many. The exact number depends heavily on the context and what is being discussed. So could a few be six?

• 1:48:08Jordi Hays?

  Saying it feels, feels pretty gentle.

• 1:48:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it is a gentle singularity for sure. I was gonna say 3,000 days, which is 10 years, right? 3,365?

• 1:48:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I've, I've updated my.

• 1:48:24John Coogan?

  Oh, wow. Ultra bearish.

• 1:48:25Jordi Hays?

  Short, everything.

• 1:48:28John Coogan?

  I don't think it's, how many years is that? 99999 divided by 365? That is 273 years away. You gotta be more optimistic than that, Tyler.

• 1:48:39Jordi Hays?

  Do we do the OLE, OLG? Somebody asked OLG, how many days until the singularity?

• 1:48:45John Coogan?

  9999999999999. I, I realistically, I'm at, I'm at 6,000 days. I'm on Kurzweil timelines. Kurzweil timelines put us at, maybe even more, honestly, maybe, maybe 7,000 days.

• 1:49:01Jordi Hays?

  You put it in GTA terms, like, is that GTA seven or eight?

• 1:49:05John Coogan?

  GTA seven, probably. So, so I'm on 2045 ASI. Kurzweil timelines, I remain unchanged by any developments essentially. So 2045 ASI arrives, it's the singularity, and so I'm around 7,000 days. Sam Altman said a few thousand is seven, a few? I don't know, we'll decide. But Tyler, feel free to, to feel free to update that to whatever you think is the correct estimate for when ASI arrives. Jordy, you've gone from not AGI pilled to extremely AGI pilled, back to, you know, top signal Maxer, extremely AGI, not pilled. How are you feeling about the progress towards super intelligence? I think we're a few thousand days away.

• 1:49:49Jordi Hays?

  I think there's only, I think there's only.

• 1:49:54Jordi Hays?

  It feels like there's this very small number of people that have any like real sense of the truth and they're all extremely conflicted. They all have no incentive to tell you that it's

• 1:50:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:06Jordi Hays?

  They have an incentive to be like try to be a little realistic about it, but they have no incentive to say, you know, we're 10 years away or it just all feels

• 1:50:16John Coogan?

  But you specifically don't have foundation model lab bags. You have attio.com or addio bags, customer relationship magic. Addio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales and grows your company to the next level. Obviously addio has their own timelines, but what are your timelines?

• 1:50:35Jordi Hays?

  My, I don't even know if it's the right.

• 1:50:40John Coogan?

  Are you over under my estimate of 7,000 days until super intelligence and singularity? Me and Ray Kurzweil riding together. Are you earlier or later?

• 1:50:51Jordi Hays?

  Self reinforcing.

• 1:50:52John Coogan?

  Full on super intelligent, smarter than everyone, can do any job, can do anything.

• 1:50:57Jordi Hays?

  Can make itself smarter.

• 1:50:58John Coogan?

  Yes. And it's just like, it's a thing that just runs, you know? One shots, anything, full, full self reinforcing. Who knows? Maybe it, maybe it goes to war, maybe it just leaves, you know? But it is, it is fully its own conscious.

• 1:51:13Jordi Hays?

  Definitely more than a decade out.

• 1:51:14John Coogan?

  Yep. So over 3,000 days for sure. That's the low end of Sam Altman's prediction.

• 1:51:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I just, I still find it hard to believe entirely.

• 1:51:25John Coogan?

  So maybe never, maybe infinite days. You could be in the nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine days camp.

• 1:51:31Jordi Hays?

  Nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine, nine.

• 1:51:34John Coogan?

  If it happens, so, so, so this is the updated take actually from, from some of the, from some of the AI pill people. They will say, they will say, uh, it either happens very soon or it doesn't happen at all. Which is a kind of a funny way to frame it. But. If you put it in those terms, if it happens, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, what are you feeling?

• 1:51:57Jordi Hays?

  I just, I just feel like it'll end up being, I, I, I think we're going to continue to get more and more advanced capabilities. But I, I don't, I just believe that even the, even the smartest people in the room. Like, clearly, we're getting machines that are just more intelligent and capable in many ways than humans. But you can take, you can take and, and, and, uh, I just sort of disagree with like the ramp that will come from that, right? Because if you took, if you took, you know, a thousand of the smartest people in the world and put them in a room and you say like, solve world hunger, or like, get us to Mars. It's like, they're not going to do it, and it doesn't work, it's not going to happen in a year.

• 1:52:42John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:52:43Jordi Hays?

  Like, if you take a really smart group of people, like with SpaceX, and you say, get to Mars, say like, great, well, we're going to work on this for decades, right? And so I, I just, I disagree with, um, or I don't believe in, in this, uh, uh, I don't believe in the fast takeoff.

• 1:52:59John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 1:52:59Jordi Hays?

  I believe that like, machines will continue to get smarter and smarter and more capable.

• 1:53:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:04Jordi Hays?

  More valuable to humanity, but I, but I don't believe in, in a, in a fast takeoff.

• 1:53:08John Coogan?

  It is somewhat of an abstraction of that, uh, philosophical question of like, can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it? Like, can, can a human create something that's smarter than a human in every way? Like, how would that work? There is, there is sort of like a fundamental philosophical question.

• 1:53:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and also, like, raw intelligence is rarely the bottleneck for progress.

• 1:53:31John Coogan?

  That's a very good point, yeah. I don't know. I, I'm still, I still am rooting for the Terminator outcome. Where superintelligence comes around 2045, we go to war, and the indomitable human spirit wins out and we kill all the robots and we win. I think that would be the most exciting outcome.

• 1:53:53Jordi Hays?

  That'd be fun.

• 1:53:53John Coogan?

  Because you, it would be so unifying to humanity, to have a common enemy, the Klinker.

• 1:53:59Jordi Hays?

  Humanity needs a true common enemy.

• 1:54:02John Coogan?

  Exactly. There's so much infighting.

• 1:54:04Jordi Hays?

  I don't want to manifest like an alien race that wants to destroy us, but it'd be so good for the world. We could stop.

• 1:54:10John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 1:54:11Jordi Hays?

  We could ignore all politics and just focus on.

• 1:54:14John Coogan?

  Imagine the dream team, Xi Jinping, Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, all your boys working together to shoot the clankers. It'd be great. It'd be amazing. And the funny thing is that the doomers will come to you and they'll say.

• 1:54:28Jordi Hays?

  A uniform that just says "human race."

• 1:54:29John Coogan?

  Haven't you seen the Terminator? That's what's gonna happen if we create AI. We're gonna get the Terminator outcome. Well, I've seen Terminator. I know you haven't, but I've seen Terminator. What happens in Terminator? Who wins at the end of Terminator? The humans. The humans win at the end of Terminator. That's the conclusion of the movie. They fight and the humans win. And so if we get the Terminator outcome, that means we win. That means we win. And that's gonna be a lot of fun. So, tool up. Get the guns. Get ready to fight the clankers. We're going to war, but not for the next two decades. It's gonna be two decades of enterprise sass. It's gonna be two decades of shareholder value accrual.

• 1:55:12John Coogan?

  And it's gonna be two years of delightful rest on an 8Sleep. Get a Pod5, five-year warranty, 30-night risk-free trial, free returns, free shipping. Fantastic sleeps.

• 1:55:25Jordi Hays?

  I put in an 84. Not my best.

• 1:55:28John Coogan?

  And I got a 90. So please.

• 1:55:31Jordi Hays?

  You're on a roll.

• 1:55:33John Coogan?

  Thank you.

• 1:55:34Jordi Hays?

  Congratulations, John.

• 1:55:35John Coogan?

  I am on a roll. And you know who else is on a roll? Microsoft. Microsoft has been on a roll. And we have the Chief Product Officer of Microsoft joining us.

• 1:55:46Jordi Hays?

  Final boss of product people.

• 1:55:50John Coogan?

  This is the true gatekeeper to our plan to bring back Clippy. So we will welcome the CPO. Welcome to the stream. How you doing?

• 1:55:59Jordi Hays?

  What's happening?

• 1:56:02John Coogan?

  I think we can hear you. How are you doing?

• 1:56:04Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:56:04John Coogan?

  Yes, fantastic. Thanks so much for hopping on the stream.

• 1:56:08Speaker 03

  Microsoft, so just so you know.

• 1:56:11John Coogan?

  What was that?

• 1:56:12Speaker 03

  I said there are many bosses, but Clippy is the ultimate boss.

• 1:56:15John Coogan?

  Yes, Clippy is the ultimate boss. Has Clippy actually been thrown around as an idea? It feels like more and more, you know, I get companies, like the huge companies are starting to have a little bit more fun every once in a while. It is a bit of a wild, I've seen some like throwback Microsoft merch that's gotten out. Is there any serious discussion internally to think about reviving Clippy? I feel like it would be so much fun.

• 1:56:39Speaker 03

  Dude, I'm with you. I feel like, um, unironically, Clippy was just like early, right?

• 1:56:46John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:56:46Jordi Hays?

  Totally.

• 1:56:47John Coogan?

  The original conversation.

• 1:56:48Jordi Hays?

  He was early and right.

• 1:56:49John Coogan?

  Interface, interface. Anyway, would you mind introducing yourself and give us a little bit of an overview of like what your day to day actually looks like? It's such a huge organization. There's so much to do, but I'd love to have a little bit more context on what you oversee and what your role actually looks like.

• 1:57:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, let me give you the low round of me. I, I, um, I've been at Microsoft for two years. I'm the Chief Product Officer for AI at work. So focused on kind of like, how do you make work great again with AI? And if I, and before that I was at Robinhood and before that I was at Google for many years. But I think the steel thread through all of this for me has been like, uh, the way I think about this bringing near future science fiction and putting it in product.

• 1:57:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:35Speaker 03

  And making sure that billions of people have it. So I did that with Google Search. Uh, and then I founded this idea called Google Lens with, you know, the better camera turns into a search engine. Um, and of course Robin Hood for first time investors. And at Microsoft, my focus has been, and our team's focus has been, we have hundreds of millions of professionals. We've got to make work not just about doing more, but about being better. So co-pilot work, what are the agents that you get for work today? You get a badge and a PC. Should you get a team of agents?

• 1:58:08John Coogan?

  How are you thinking about the trade off of put a chat box? Obviously, Microsoft has fantastic access, exclusive access to GPT five, the, you know, frontier level capabilities. There, but there's a trade off from the product perspective. Put the chat box next to it, which is almost just one level away from just having two tabs open next to each other and having GPT five in chat.com over here versus do the hard work of have the product teams go and dig into how do we add AI functionality into every sub tool? If you're in Excel, how do you create, you know, smarter functions within the cells as opposed to just a sidebar,

• 1:58:53John Coogan?

  which has kind of been the status quo for a lot of AI at work projects broadly?

• 1:58:58Speaker 03

  Totally. And I think this is the, I mean, the answer is yes and, right? In some sense, like, look, every shift, and I've been through three of these. I worked at Akamai like 20 years ago, and the internet was like a thing, was going to be a thing. And then, you know, I was obviously mobile and cloud at Google, and now at Microsoft with AI. The first wave of all of these things is just add AI, right? Like, put chat next to it, bring some intelligence to it. And it's no different from, you know, the first wave of mobile apps were like desktop form factor, like shrunk into the mobile screen form factor, or the first websites actually were like scanned brochures, which are PDFs, right? In back in the day, folks. And I think

• 1:59:42Speaker 03

  now I feel like one of the, that's why you see they're across the industry saying, oh, let's, let's add AI to it. But I think the yes and comes from two things. One is, you want to make sure that when there's a natural way, because of the natural language interface, you're actually asking AI to do a lot more higher order things, right? Instead of this fine grain manipulation of like, oh, let's go through 200 menus and remember the magic incantation. Like, you want to kind of say, hey, do it for me, right? So there's a bunch of things where chat is the right answer. But then there are other things where if you're an Excel Row like you want to be in the in your ID right?

• 2:00:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:21Speaker 03

  And get uh get your uh you know uh get your get the assistance right where you are. So meeting you where where you are. So if you saw last um two weeks ago, we talked about and we announced the equals co pilot. But that's like is the hello world of like what we're thinking of and say, how do we actually right now in teams or in your meeting? How do you have assistance, right? Along with the chatbot.

• 2:00:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, from a from a product perspective, there's something very interesting going on where I mean, Microsoft kind of coined the term or the definition of like being a platform, where uh the companies that built on top of Windows created more value than Microsoft captured. And it was like the classic example of of a technology platform driving like incredible value. There's something potentially at least that we've been tracking, where we've talked to what three or four different companies that are building AI add-ons to Excel.

• 2:01:18Jordi Hays?

  Or or trying to rebuild it.

• 2:01:20John Coogan?

  Or trying to rebuild it, but a lot of times it's actually integrated into Excel. And there's one frame where, okay, those companies are going to get steamrolled by Excel uh and the team there. There's the other frame which is.

• 2:01:31Jordi Hays?

  We said it, not you.

• 2:01:34John Coogan?

  Well, I mean, that's a risk that I'm sure every investor in those companies is discussing. But then there's another frame where Excel becomes a platform like Windows became a platform. And there is a robust ecosystem of apps and services on top, some of those that are complementary to co pilot functionality, some of those that are competitive. So I guess the question is like, is Excel becoming a platform? And do you see like, how do you how do you message around the openness of the Excel platform? Are you trying to take learnings from the openness of the Microsoft ecosystem and bring that into the developer communications on top of Excel? Or is there a different strategy at play?

• 2:02:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think, you know, look.

• 2:02:17Speaker 03

  Super sharp point and I I think in the in the fullness of Tonic Office as a whole has always been a platform, right? If you look at like Word, Excel, PowerPoint.

• 2:02:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:27Speaker 03

  Actually Outlook plugins, Teams has a very healthy like bot ecosystem. So the platform play is always been kind of at the center of it. And it's the question though is there are certain, it's keeping the user in mind. Are there things that are much more intuitive and native to be part of the product? And are there things that are kind of like, let's say you're doing something very specific for accounting? It is absolutely the right thing for that to be a plugin and add in. Versus doing something horizontal that should really be a feature of the product. So that's the way it is we we're thinking about it.

• 2:03:00John Coogan?

  Have you thought any at all about how AI can supercharge the way people use LinkedIn? I imagine that there's a lot of, I I there might be a completely separate world from what you're doing. But I it does seem like something that uh that in the future. People have been, people have been out there for so long, I need a personal CRM. I need some sort of thing on top of my LinkedIn connections to remind me. And you get those like on every social app, you get the reminder, hey, it's somebody's birthday. You should write them a note. But with AI, you could imagine so much more power there to say, I'm trying to sell this particular thing. I'm hiring for this particular thing and having GPT five go and crawl all the profiles, put together something for you.

• 2:03:42John Coogan?

  Have you thought about anything that's happening over in the LinkedIn world or is that just kind of out of your purview?

• 2:03:47Speaker 03

  It's, you know, I we Ryan and I talk all the time and he's actually like much more front and center on the office world now. So I think the the thing that's interesting there is that a lot of these ideas were just like unfundable or bad ideas before. Because it didn't have enough tokens. So my favorite thing to say is like, take, take all these like ideas people thought were like really bad. So for example, like I'd have like a whole bunch of people pitch back in Google, the whole alerting. Oh, wouldn't it be great if you could kind of like ongoing to like event discovery? I'm into this favorite, like my favorite band is this obscure thing and like, you know, wouldn't it be great if I knew something about like?

• 2:04:28John Coogan?

  Oh, I think we have some.

• 2:04:32John Coogan?

  I think we're having some technical difficulties. Sorry, I, I, I, I think we're having some technical difficulties here.

• 2:04:41John Coogan?

  Can you hear us okay?

• 2:04:42Speaker 03

  I'm, I can hear you, it's fine.

• 2:04:44John Coogan?

  Okay, sorry, I think you're cutting out. Let, let, let's move on to.

• 2:04:49Speaker 03

  I didn't say anything controversial.

• 2:04:50John Coogan?

  No, no, it's not that. I think it's the, uh, the, the backbone internet infrastructure in this company, in this country, that's, uh, that's controversial. What, uh, what, what about?

• 2:05:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I would, like, I guess like my, my biggest thing that I'd, I'd be curious to get your insight on is, is are there, like, how many businesses in the, in the Microsoft ecosystem have just totally opted out of AI? That are not, that are not responding to upsells, that are just not interested. Maybe they have employees that are kind of using various AI tools themselves, but I would have to imagine it's like a very, very large percentage of companies within that are.

• 2:05:34Speaker 03

  Off contrary, I think, um, it's, uh, in fact, we, we've had like more than 90% of Fortune 500 using some form of like, you know, copilot AI products of like 100 million customers that have just, we've just crossed 100 million across commercial and consumer on copilot usage. The thing that's actually interesting that I see is maybe a variant of what you're asking, which is, you know, like, there's one extreme. There's a set of folks who are just leaning much, the posture is much more proactive, I would say, and kind of like in the game, get in the arena, building stuff. It's not just about, oh, like there's an off the shelf thing. This is a chatbot that I'll buy and see who, who uses it in my company.

• 2:06:17Speaker 03

  So that set of firms, in fact, like we've started calling them frontier firms, right? These guys are like out there, starting to kind of like invest, both build and buy and partner. And we are starting to see, oh, those folks actually get a lot more out of AI. So for example, like one example for me is like, you guys are using the reasoning models. So when you, if you step back and think like, you know, that where we are in AI, the first version of AI, it's just been more about like next token prediction and like chatbot, right? Um, but the next really real big unlock came in January and February around that time and the reasoning made models came online.

• 2:06:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:55Speaker 03

  That's when we saw a very clear shift. There's certain companies that just jumped in and said, oh, all these things that we couldn't do six months ago or one year ago, let's try them now.

• 2:07:07John Coogan?

  Has that been affecting?

• 2:07:07Speaker 03

  Including Microsoft, by the way.

• 2:07:09John Coogan?

  Yeah. Has that been affecting gross margins? We saw in the Wall Street Journal yesterday, the Notion obviously sells a few competitors to Microsoft products, saw gross margins drop from ninety percent to something like eighty percent. I was talking to Ivan, he said it actually wasn't even that bad, but there was some sort of an impact. Obviously, you can upsell against that. But how is the how is the economic trade off? How are you thinking about that with, you know, selling? Obviously, people want frontier level intelligence, but there there it might change the economic equation. Are you seeing anything that indicates that going forward, the the fundamental gravity of the economic equation might be different?

• 2:07:45Speaker 03

  I mean, look, look, I think it's going to be proportional in a sense that like I was joking with someone saying like, you know, using G P T five thinking like in your product is like taking a flying car to a grocery store, right? Or O three pro.

• 2:07:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:59Speaker 03

  Like, so in some sense, you do have to be, it's no longer about like just being a rapper on the model.

• 2:08:04John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:08:04Speaker 03

  Uh, yes, the model is eating the product, like absolutely. So that's, I think, one thing. Both these statements seemingly contradictory are true, and we're seeing that. On one hand, the model is eating the product. What do I mean by that? Like, you know, internally, even us, we spent a bunch of time trying to solve what I call the six finger problem, right? Like, remember two years ago when Dali three came out and like, if you generate humans, it would be like six fingers and five, like eighteen toes or what have you. And there's a whole bunch of startups that said, oh, we'll solve that, right? And a whole bunch of product teams inside Microsoft too, saying, oh, we'll just like figure out how to solve the six finger problem. Metaphorically speaking, six months later, the model of a G P T photo came out and like, you know, there's no longer a six finger problem.

• 2:08:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, hallucinations, yeah, hallucinations seem to be at an all time low, like the models are getting way more.

• 2:08:56Jordi Hays?

  Uh, there's been a lot of reports of of consumers developing like friend like relationships with various L L Ms. Do you have, is there any evidence that that employees at companies are are developing real relationships with with A I in the way that some people on on Reddit have developed relationships with models like four O?

• 2:09:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I I think we've made the the the product choices that kind of squarely put AI uh at Microsoft as tools, right?

• 2:09:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:09:26Speaker 03

  Uh and even even these tools, they can be agentic tools, meaning they can be working for you uh in background. You have a natural language interface to it. Uh but there is, this is, this is not an accidental thing. We have to make intentional choices. In fact, I I I call the term called neural software, meaning that it's not software as usual. In fact, Steve Sinofsky and I had a spat on Twitter about it. Uh saying, uh like, because for me, the way I think about this is, look, uh, yes, it is software. As engineers, we all know that it's like stochastic models and it's like, you know, you you peel a a few layers, it's all software. But it is probabilistic and there are three things that are really important going on here.

• 2:10:07Speaker 03

  And we, like as builders, I I feel like we've got to pay attention to it. Number one is the natural language interface, right? It just has this human-like anthropomorphic interface. So when four O gets replaced by uh five, like you're like, you're not like, oh, my cheese or this menu item moved. They're like, who fired my, you know, like chefs, right? So I think that is a po- point, whether it work or in um in personal life. But I think the second thing that we are underestimating, and we certainly see that inside, is the way we are building products and releasing them is changing. Like previously, we'd say, oh, yeah, like two point one to two point two, right? Like the software is updated, release notes and change log.

• 2:10:51Speaker 03

  But now it's just like you're, you have to kind of slow roll out, you have to kind of do evals and benchmarks on how the interaction works, not just the accuracy of things, right?

• 2:11:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:11:02Speaker 03

  Uh and then the third, the third thing I'm seeing at least, like, and this one's a hard one to kind of like crack. Uh we're still trying to figure out what that means is the composition of the team, right? Like i- in the past, it'd be like, oh, you had engineers, you're, you know, your desk, your test, your product, your UX. It's all a blur, right? It's so much. And like you have a bunch of generalists and you have the model whisperers, right? And then you go to market. Like that's the new triangle that that we're seeing.

• 2:11:32John Coogan?

  Well, it's a fun puzzle to solve. Thank you for hopping on the stream. This was great. We will talk to you soon. Have a great rest of your day.

• 2:11:38Jordi Hays?

  And just let everybody know internally that we're we're we're riding.

• 2:11:42John Coogan?

  Riding with the XL bros and Clippy.

• 2:11:44Jordi Hays?

  Riding with Clippy.

• 2:11:45John Coogan?

  For sure. Thank you.

• 2:11:46Jordi Hays?

  We would love to help relaunch Clippy, given the opportunity.

• 2:11:49John Coogan?

  No day. Thank you so much.

• 2:11:51Jordi Hays?

  Great to meet you.

• 2:11:51John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon. Have a great rest of your day. In the meantime, let me tell you about adquick.com. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising. Only Adquick combines technology, out of home expertise and data to enable efficient seamless ad buying across the globe. Nick, did you see this post by Nick Dobos, OpenAI cackling right now today? So OpenAI acquired StatsSig. We talked about this yesterday. But he's he's sharing a photo of Anthropic and telemetry services for data usage. Claude code connects from users' machines to the StatsSig service to log operational metrics as latency, reliability and usage patterns.

• 2:12:29John Coogan?

  And so i- is what he's is what he's saying like they are they're going to rug Anthropic by buying their their telemetry, like their logging service? Like, is this monopolistic like market? Can Anthropic not just use another company or product? I I don't. This doesn't quite like sit with me as like, oh, yeah, it's like they totally owned Anthropic. It's like, yeah, they bought a company that Anthropic uses like the Anthropic will probably keep using that. Maybe they'll replatform. I I don't know. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

• 2:13:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, I do wonder, curious if if StatsSig is going to remain an independent brand or just be rolled under OpenAI?

• 2:13:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's a bunch of companies that use StatsSig. I'm just looking at the website.

• 2:13:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:18Jordi Hays?

  EA, Microsoft, Atlassian, Bloomberg.

• 2:13:21John Coogan?

  Effectra Ultra use it?

• 2:13:24John Coogan?

  You said EA's use it?

• 2:13:28Jordi Hays?

  Tyler, do you think this is, do you think that?

• 2:13:31John Coogan?

  What do the, what do the EAs use in StatsSig for like tracking shrimp welfare?

• 2:13:36Speaker 02

  I frankly, I don't know what StatsSig really does. So I have no, like, it seems like, yeah, Anthropic can just-

• 2:13:43John Coogan?

  Why don't you know what it does? It's no more complicated than Palantir. It's equivalent, it's equivalent to, oh, we got Arfa Rock dropping massive alpha on Mistral. Mistral's closing $14 billion, blue past the initial target of $9 billion. I assume that's market cap. The rumors about Apple's acquisition were fake. That seems right.

• 2:14:05Jordi Hays?

  That always seemed fake. I mean, in what world was France gonna let their national AI champion be?

• 2:14:10John Coogan?

  Wait, wait, wait, is this real? This hello, hello, breaking, Apple and Google have reached a deal to have Gemini power new Siri platform as per Bloomberg? Let's pull that up because that's literally my prediction today. Did I just not read Bloomberg?

• 2:14:22Jordi Hays?

  Well, this was rumored, this was rumored.

• 2:14:24John Coogan?

  This is rumored for a while, but like, is it actually happening?

• 2:14:26Jordi Hays?

  Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We got-

• 2:14:29John Coogan?

  Either I'm gonna look extremely dumb or extremely smart. Let's read this.

• 2:14:32Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so this is-

• 2:14:33John Coogan?

  Okay, "Apple plans AI-powered search tool for Siri to rival OpenAI perplexity." "Apple is planning to launch its own artificial intelligence web-powered search tool next year, stepping up competition." I'm gonna put this in the chat, or should I put it in the tab? "The company is working on a new system, world knowledge answers that will be integrated into the Siri voice assistant, according to people with knowledge of the man, of the matter." And, wait, who are they? So it's Google, okay. "Apple is aiming to release the service described by some executives as an answer, an answer engine."

• 2:15:09Jordi Hays?

  The news breaking right now is crazy. So, American Eagle just beat earnings up another 20% after hours.

• 2:15:14John Coogan?

  Also, moment of silence for Figma. They missed earnings, very sad to see that, but never bet against our boy Dylan Field.

• 2:15:22Jordi Hays?

  And the whole team.

• 2:15:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, everyone is ripping. American Eagle, wait, I wonder if they actually beat earnings because of that Sydney Sweeney thing? Like, we were talking about the value that she brought to that brand, and it probably was like $100 million in market cap. She should have gotten like a $50 million payday. Like, it really did change the trajectory of the, of the business.

• 2:15:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:42John Coogan?

  Sydney XAI deal incoming. Ragav is a go to poster in the chat.

• 2:15:47Jordi Hays?

  Ragav is on a tear.

• 2:15:48John Coogan?

  Thank you for what you do, Ragav.

• 2:15:50Jordi Hays?

  American- American Eagles still down 30% in the last 12 months, 20% year to date. So Sweeney really was the turnaround.

• 2:16:01John Coogan?

  Sydney bottom ticket? Hopefully she got some shares.

• 2:16:03Jordi Hays?

  She basically did.

• 2:16:05John Coogan?

  The underlying technology enabling the new Siri could come in part from Alphabet Inc.'s Google, Apple's longtime partner in internet search. The company's reached a formal agreement this week for Apple to help evaluate and test a Google-developed AI model to help power the voice assistant. So, very interesting. I would imagine Apple has to pay Google for this version of just an answer engine because the answer engine is not going to be directly monetized, but Google has to be working on agentic commerce, agentic ads in the LLM results. It seems so obvious. I feel like this is going to flip at some point, but I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. Apple's new search experience will include an interface that makes use of text, photos.

• 2:16:47Jordi Hays?

  So how is Google going to feel about this, giving them?

• 2:16:51John Coogan?

  Why? What's wrong with this?

• 2:16:53Jordi Hays?

  They're building something that is, they're building an AI-powered web search tool for Siri.

• 2:17:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, they're building software because they're a software company and they're selling it to the hardware company or they're partnering with the hardware company.

• 2:17:07Jordi Hays?

  So you think Apple's saying, "You're going to keep paying us 20 billion and we're going to compete with you?"

• 2:17:11John Coogan?

  How are they competing?

• 2:17:14John Coogan?

  No, this is them not, this is them saying, "We're not getting into foundation models. We're not going to do our own AI model. We're going to use Gemini."

• 2:17:22Jordi Hays?

  Oh, they're saying, "Okay, I missed the part."

• 2:17:24John Coogan?

  No, so today Siri can answer basic questions.

• 2:17:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we got it, we got it. So the companies reached, Apple and Alphabet, reached a formal agreement for Apple to evaluate and test a Google-developed AI model to help power the voice assistant.

• 2:17:38John Coogan?

  Yes, so, so like, this is, I mean, it's a formal agreement to evaluate and test it. So like, we're still like years away from anything happening here, like the next iPhone event is like next week and like they're not going to roll out a Google partnership. I'd imagine they don't roll out a Google partnership. This feels like something that they're going to be working in over time. I don't know, maybe they will, but either way.

• 2:18:05Jordi Hays?

  So Apple is rebuilding Siri around three core components, a planner, the search systems for the web and devices, and a summarizer. The planner interprets voice or text input and decides how to respond. The search system scans the web or user data and the summarizer pulls it all together into an answer. And Apple has recently leaning toward a custom-built Google Gemini model for the summarizer, it would run on Apple's own private cloud computer, computing servers.

• 2:18:30John Coogan?

  And that's gonna be important.

• 2:18:31Jordi Hays?

  Search giant already delivered the technology to Apple and both companies are now collaborating on fine tuning and testing it. So.

• 2:18:39John Coogan?

  Yep. Apple has been recently.

• 2:18:41Jordi Hays?

  It does say that Apple considered acquiring perplexity to enhance the search features in Siri.

• 2:18:47John Coogan?

  But again.

• 2:18:47Jordi Hays?

  Perplexity is the, the big loser.

• 2:18:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, but perplexity sits on top of other foundation models. So.

• 2:18:54Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 2:18:54John Coogan?

  Like, it doesn't, it doesn't fully solve Apple's problem all the way to the root of the stack, in my opinion. So somewhat makes sense that they would, that, the, the, the secret sauce that perplexity builds is something that Apple's like capable of instantiating. Yeah. What you got?

• 2:19:13Speaker 02

  So I'm reading the article. It says, um, Google was not initially the frontrunner for the Siri project. Anthropic had been in the lead for the deal.

• 2:19:20John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:19:21Speaker 02

  But then their price was too high.

• 2:19:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:23John Coogan?

  Interesting. Anthropic demanded a high price for using this technology, more than 1.5 billion a year, and Google was open to more favorable financial terms. So the, the end result is that we should expect that Apple pays Google less than 1.5 billion per year to vend Gemini models into Siri, essentially. And I feel like as soon as Gemini has ads in the results, or monetized commerce in the results.

• 2:19:56Jordi Hays?

  And Apple can take a cut of that.

• 2:19:57John Coogan?

  Apple should want to take a cut of that. And so it feels like this, this, this, this economic flow is going to reverse at some point. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe, maybe inference is really, remains really expensive and the.

• 2:20:12Jordi Hays?

  I mean, this is.

• 2:20:13John Coogan?

  The monetization never really pencils out or something. But this feels like something that, that would flow the other direction at some point. They're a gatekeeper. They're gonna, they're gonna take a cut.

• 2:20:22Jordi Hays?

  I mean, yeah, I mean, OpenAI is now in the league of actually. Like they are, they're, they're, they're very much in the mag, mag seven league in terms of competing, uh, competing. I mean, this, in a world where Apple device users are just pushed into using new, new, effectively, this is a Google product, right? That will be powered by, still powered by Google search and, and theoretically built into the existing Google Ads engine. It's just gonna be, um, I would, I would not, uh, bet against OpenAI in any way, but it's certainly, uh, this is some real competition. More so than, than just a net new Gemini app that people are.

• 2:21:07John Coogan?

  I guess the question is, what is the value of this particular knowledge engine, right? Isn't that, isn't that how they're characterizing it? Like, the, the, uh, what's it called? They.

• 2:21:20Jordi Hays?

  World knowledge answers. So to me, this is starting with something that's just like, hey, what are some things I can do for fun when in New York? And it's like, you should.

• 2:21:30John Coogan?

  World knowledge answers, is that related to World Liberty Financial or World Coin, the orb scanner?

• 2:21:38Jordi Hays?

  Potentially both.

• 2:21:39John Coogan?

  Potentially both. A Kretsu, put them all together. No, uh, world knowledge answers, that feels like something that has cost.

• 2:21:48Jordi Hays?

  High value searches.

• 2:21:49John Coogan?

  Yes, not highly monetizable.

• 2:21:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:52John Coogan?

  And so maybe there's some bifurcation where the user activity, when they want world knowledge answers, that is a cost center. And when you want to do agentic commerce and shopping, that's monetizable.

• 2:22:06Jordi Hays?

  But apps want both. Companies want both types of searches because.

• 2:22:11John Coogan?

  I would assume, I would assume, I would assume that, what, like, the world knowledge answer, what headphones should I buy? That's a question that I would want the new Siri to answer. And then I would want it to buy it, buy them for me.

• 2:22:23Jordi Hays?

  More data, hello, in the chat says more data for Google. Let's give it up for Google. They are just data world champions.

• 2:22:31John Coogan?

  It is, it is wild. People, yeah, this is, uh, this is not on many people's big go cards early, earlier.

• 2:22:37Jordi Hays?

  Of course, it was probably a Mark German's.

• 2:22:39John Coogan?

  Up, everyone's, everyone's ripping. Uh, the mag seven remains undefeated. Um, anyway, uh, speaking of Mag7, let's go to Lulu Messervy's breakdown of the Tesla master plans, V, she's highlighting V2 and V4, and she calls it founder writing versus committee writing. And if you look, and we touched on this yesterday, if you look at the way the, the, the first two master plans were written, it really does feel like Elon just tapped it out on the phone, almost like a couple of bullet points here and there. There's one chart in there. Then when master plan V3 comes out, it's this 40-page PDF

• 2:23:20John Coogan?

  with a bunch of charts. Maybe he was involved, but the latest version, uh, does feel very dry. And, uh, Christian Kyle had a very good reply. He just replied with the M dash because of course, the Tesla master plan V4 had 14 M dashes in it. It's a lot of M dashes at a time when the M dash is highly controversial. I was, I was thinking about the M dash. I don't know how to create an M dash. Like, I don't have the button on my keyboard. I have a minus sign and I have an underscore.

• 2:23:53Jordi Hays?

  All you have to do is hit the, the da- uh, dash button twice and hit space.

• 2:23:58John Coogan?

  Minus, minus, and then space and it turns into a M dash.

• 2:24:00Jordi Hays?

  Minus, minus, space and it turns it into a M dash.

• 2:24:01John Coogan?

  I never learned how to use that. Really?

• 2:24:02Speaker 02

  You can also do shift, option.

• 2:24:03Jordi Hays?

  You were too poor and then you were too rich.

• 2:24:05John Coogan?

  I was too poor and then I was too rich to use the M dash. I'm not kidding. I've never, I like, you can look at any of my writing and any of the scripts I've written or blog posts, like, I just have never used the M dash. I don't know why.

• 2:24:15Jordi Hays?

  I was pretty devastated by, by ChatGPT just stealing it.

• 2:24:19John Coogan?

  You were a big M dash guy before?

• 2:24:21Jordi Hays?

  Uh, it's just, it's very functional.

• 2:24:22John Coogan?

  I'm just all about the comma. Like, why do you ever need an M dash when you can just use a comma? You know, like, so in the Tesla thing, how we develop and use autonomy.

• 2:24:31Jordi Hays?

  It's more than a comma, John.

• 2:24:33John Coogan?

  M dash and-

• 2:24:34Jordi Hays?

  It's a statement.

• 2:24:35John Coogan?

  Why, just use a comma. I, I don't know. I don't understand. Do you, Tyler, do you understand why the M dash is valuable at all? We should just destroy it. We should just get rid of it. I don't think it makes any sense.

• 2:24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, there's some like stylistic value.

• 2:24:46John Coogan?

  What is the stylistic value? Just looks nice or something?

• 2:24:50Jordi Hays?

  Looks maxing your writing.

• 2:24:52John Coogan?

  Aura farming, the M dash? I just don't like it. It doesn't have spaces around it. Like, the, the comma is just so much cleaner. Use a comma, use a period, use a space. It just, it, we, like, did Shakespeare write M dashes?

• 2:25:07John Coogan?

  Let's figure that out.

• 2:25:08Jordi Hays?

  I think so.

• 2:25:09John Coogan?

  Who is the first person to really dominate the M dash? I see it in, I see it all over the place now. I see it, I see it in the, I mean, it's in, is it in the journal usually? I don't know. I don't see a lot of it in the journal.

• 2:25:19Jordi Hays?

  Okay. If it's not in the journal.

• 2:25:20John Coogan?

  If it's not in the journal, it should get out of the training data.

• 2:25:24Jordi Hays?

  Some of the most well-known users of the M dash. I asked Gemini because I, I just feel like ChatGPT is biased. James Joyce.

• 2:25:33John Coogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:25:34Jordi Hays?

  Emily Dickinson.

• 2:25:38Jordi Hays?

  Vladimir Nobikov.

• 2:25:41John Coogan?

  Nobikov.

• 2:25:41Jordi Hays?

  A master of style. Nobikov used the M dash to create a specific ti- kind of voice and pacing.

• 2:25:46John Coogan?

  No. Shakespeare did not use the M dash. Does the Bible, does the Bible?

• 2:25:52Jordi Hays?

  J K Rowling has been a notable user of the M dash. Maybe she is an AI that traveled back in time.

• 2:26:00John Coogan?

  To bring Harry Potter forward?

• 2:26:04Jordi Hays?

  To bring the chosen one.

• 2:26:05John Coogan?

  Does, does, does, does the M dash occur in the Bible? No. The Bible, at least in its early printings and manuscripts, did not use M dashes. Ancient texts, the Hebrew Bible and the Greek New Testament were originally written without punctuation at all.

• 2:26:19Jordi Hays?

  Not in the Bible.

• 2:26:20John Coogan?

  This is hilarious. So ChatGPT says, no, M dash. The Bible at least did not use M dashes. The, the Greek New Testament were originally written without punctuation at all. M dash, just continuous script. Breaks, pauses and emphasis were conveyed by spacing, rhythm or oral tradition. Modern editions, some 19th and 20th century English bibles, especially in America, started using dashes to mark sudden breaks or interruptions in thought. But this is a modern editorial choice, not a part of the original text or the earliest print traditions. So the M dash is relatively recent punctuation invention. I think we got to return. We got to get rid of the M dash.

• 2:27:01John Coogan?

  Destroy the M dash. I'm sick of hearing it. Take it out of your writing. Instead, get on Bezel. Your Bezel Concierge is available now to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch. Go to get Bezel.

• 2:27:13Jordi Hays?

  Alex Conrad went viral yesterday. He shared a screenshot from Bloomberg. Arowan, the cult Los Angeles grocery chain, is opening its first New York City tonic bar inside a private West Village Padel Club.

• 2:27:25John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:27:25Jordi Hays?

  He said, none of these words appear in the Bible.

• 2:27:27John Coogan?

  Oh, there we go. Related to the Bible. This is the, this is the Arowan thing in New York that Emily Sundberg broke. Very excited. Very excited. Did you see that Josh Kushner was at the US Open and?

• 2:27:43Jordi Hays?

  He's so famous.

• 2:27:44John Coogan?

  He's so recognizable. They didn't need to give him a little Chiron, a little lower third. They had to explain who Adam Silver was.

• 2:27:51Jordi Hays?

  The man that needs no introduction.

• 2:27:53John Coogan?

  Who is, who is Adam Silver again? He's like a sports guy? Adam Silver?

• 2:27:57Jordi Hays?

  I don't know if you're serious.

• 2:27:59John Coogan?

  He's the commissioner of the NBA. What's the NBA?

• 2:28:02Jordi Hays?

  That's the guy that said, uh, get ready to learn Chinese.

• 2:28:05John Coogan?

  The NBA is the National Basketball Association. So what is, is that a sport? What is basketball? Basketball? Basketball is a dynamic team sport where two teams of five players try to score points by shooting a ball through an opponent's hoop. Okay, so, so, so the guy on the left, apparently he, he, I guess he runs a company that, where people, they have teams where they have five players each and they, they try and throw a ball through a hoop. Okay. So there's, there's Adam Silver, that, the basketball guy. Then there's Josh Kushner. Everyone knows Josh Kushner. Then there's Bob Iger. Who is

• 2:28:47John Coogan?

  Bob Iger? Who is Bob Iger? Okay. Bob Iger is the CEO of Disney. What is Disney? What is Disney? Disney is a global American mass media and entertainment conglomerate known for its family-friendly content and, and content and services, including theme parks. What, what is a theme park?

• 2:29:15John Coogan?

  A theme park, a theme park is an amusement park. Oh, oh, it's an amusement park, but it has a unifying setting or idea.

• 2:29:23Jordi Hays?

  So it has a theme to it. Somewhat of a theme to it. Yeah. Okay.

• 2:29:27John Coogan?

  It's a themed amusement park. Okay.

• 2:29:29Jordi Hays?

  Theme park.

• 2:29:30John Coogan?

  Okay. So anyway, I think we cracked it. So obviously everyone knows Josh Kushner, Thrive Capital, but Adam Silver.

• 2:29:37Jordi Hays?

  Good to know about these guys, too.

• 2:29:39John Coogan?

  I guess he made his money with some game where you throw basketball through the hoop.

• 2:29:43Jordi Hays?

  Made his money with balls.

• 2:29:44John Coogan?

  And then Bob Iger, Bob Iger does, he's a media guy, I guess.

• 2:29:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:47John Coogan?

  Cool. Well, I'm glad that they put their names there because otherwise I'd be lost. I'd be lost. Anyway, Robin Hood, former guest on the show Vlad Tenev said investing for a living could replace labor in a post-AI world. Will Brown quote posts it, gets 1.3K likes. Says Roblox CEO David Bazooki has said that gaming for a living could replace labor in a post-AI world.

• 2:30:13Jordi Hays?

  Podcast host John Coogan and Jordy Hayes say that podcasting for a living could replace labor in a post-AI world.

• 2:30:20John Coogan?

  I, I, you know what I would hope replaces labor in a post-AI world?

• 2:30:26Jordi Hays?

  Pull-ups and push-ups.

• 2:30:26John Coogan?

  Wandering, just going from wander to wander.

• 2:30:29Jordi Hays?

  Finding your happy place.

• 2:30:30John Coogan?

  Finding your happy place, booking wanders with inspiring views, hotel-grade amenities, dreamy beds, top-tier cleaning, and 24/7 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better.

• 2:30:39Jordi Hays?

  But better.

• 2:30:39John Coogan?

  And in just 6,000 days, you'll be able to just spend all of your time wandering around. Hopefully, hopefully. Last post before we go into our next guest. They are in the restream waiting room. They're about to come into the TV pen, Ultra Dome.

• 2:30:55Jordi Hays?

  Get that gong ready, Joe.

• 2:30:56John Coogan?

  Would you buy Ilya Sutskever merch? Alps has printed Ilya's head on a hat and also on a mouse. Went mega-viral with 2.6K likes. People are excited.

• 2:31:11Jordi Hays?

  I mean, the mouse looks clean.

• 2:31:13John Coogan?

  Ilya, you, Tyler, you've said that Ilya is like the best aura farmer of all time, something like that?

• 2:31:20Jordi Hays?

  He's a goaded aura farmer, yeah.

• 2:31:21John Coogan?

  But I feel like in terms of his aura farming strategy.

• 2:31:24Jordi Hays?

  Explain that like, like I'm 100 years old.

• 2:31:27John Coogan?

  Yeah, I would argue, I would argue that his aura farming strategy is do-nothing-win.

• 2:31:33Speaker 02

  I think that is an example of ore farming. It's like, it's kind of like a, like a nonchalance, you know?

• 2:31:39John Coogan?

  Yeah, he has a certain je ne sais quoi. He has a, yeah.

• 2:31:45Jordi Hays?

  Don't nonchalant for nonchalant with Ilya. That's my.

• 2:31:51John Coogan?

  You don't nonchalant.

• 2:31:52Jordi Hays?

  Don't do it, dude.

• 2:31:53John Coogan?

  Don't do it. He will not.

• 2:31:54Jordi Hays?

  You just boast up like this.

• 2:31:55John Coogan?

  He will out nonchalant you for sure, for sure. You'll get roasted. Don't even try it. Also, don't go fundraiser, fundraiser with our next guest.

• 2:32:05Jordi Hays?

  Ilya Ora Farmer.

• 2:32:06John Coogan?

  Richard from you.com. Oh, he did?

• 2:32:08Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 2:32:09John Coogan?

  Oh, I thought that was news. Anyway, we got our next guest in the restream waiting room coming into the TVP and Ultra Dome.

• 2:32:14Jordi Hays?

  Welcome.

• 2:32:15John Coogan?

  We got Richard from you.com. How you doing?

• 2:32:18Richard Socher?

  Very well. How are you guys doing?

• 2:32:19John Coogan?

  We're doing fantastic. It's a wonderful day. We're having a great time. What's new in your world? Give us the news.

• 2:32:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, any big numbers?

• 2:32:27Richard Socher?

  Yeah, we just raised a hundred million dollars at a 1.5 billion.

• 2:32:33Jordi Hays?

  Boom. Uh, when did you start the company again?

• 2:32:37Richard Socher?

  In 2020.

• 2:32:39Jordi Hays?

  Nothing like a five-year overnight success. Love it. Give us, give us the update. You were on the show, was it, I'm forgetting, was it maybe three months ago at this point?

• 2:32:51Richard Socher?

  Yeah, yeah. Main, main thing since then is we kept growing more and more aggressively. Like we have over a billion API calls a month now. There are not many other startups. In fact, I can't think of any other startup at that scale now. And these API calls give search results for both people directly, but also for LMS, like the way we search is going to change, right? So you have this whole Google thing that's unfolding now, but that's kind of the, the last, you know, sort of past of, of searching. Now, people are going to search more and more through the LMS and LMS can search hundreds of times and then summarize all that content for you, right?

• 2:33:31Richard Socher?

  So it's a whole new world and we're building composable infrastructure layers for companies and startups, massive consumer companies like DuckDuckGo, and also enterprise companies like Harvey and Windsurf. The NIH is a customer of you.com, Telegraph, like lots of different organizations, both for the APIs, but then also we build end-to-end solutions because not every company is ready to just like take in an API and may have an epic AI transformation. So we're doing both of those together.

• 2:34:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, when did you realize that it made sense to combine those efforts? I'm sure early on, companies like maybe that maybe that, you know, actually building out these, this infrastructure for companies was not something that you were selling. And then you realized like, hey, we should, in order to actually unlock the value of our product, we need it, we need to kind of like hand deliver some of these features.

• 2:34:22Richard Socher?

  That's right, yeah. For the last couple of years, we were the most accurate answer engine in the world, but normal consumers, they care more about marketing and fun ads and stuff like that and designs. But companies kept coming to us and be like, we did a benchmark. You are the most accurate. We need that, you know, there are hedge funds, the NIH, like journalists, like that really care about accuracy. And so they were like, we want that technology, but we don't necessarily want it on you.com. We want it inside our own products, in our own websites, in our own apps and so on. And so at some point, there's so much market pull there for the technology that we said, let's build out a proper sales team, let's really go to market with those APIs in an enterprise context.

• 2:35:03John Coogan?

  Give us your reaction to the Google news today. They beat the charges almost. I mean, they were found guilty, but then the remediation was pretty minor.

• 2:35:11Jordi Hays?

  Lost some battles, they won the war.

• 2:35:13John Coogan?

  You're obviously an expert in this category. Walk us through how you process the news.

• 2:35:18Richard Socher?

  Yeah, I mean, I think overall, it goes in the right direction in terms of giving some more access to certain companies for their index and some of their data. At the same time, you know, we're a startup still, and by the time this gets really implemented, you know, they're probably going to try to appeal it and so on.

• 2:35:39John Coogan?

  We were really, we were really struggling to understand what giving the search index one time and then on an ongoing basis means.

• 2:35:47Jordi Hays?

  It's only like some percentage of the query database. They're giving you data based on some percentage of your queries.

• 2:35:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, can you explain like what exactly is available? Can I just go get this data? Can you.com go get this data? Can anyone get this data? Like, what does it actually take? Is this just like Microsoft Bing and the other like DuckDuckGo, like the big competitors? Are they named? Like, how does this actually work?

• 2:36:10Richard Socher?

  Yeah, so no one fully knows yet, right? There's like recommendations from Judge and then like, so there's like a ton of meta within EH, not

• 2:36:21John Coogan?

  Insider dealing.

• 2:36:25Richard Socher?

  But like my hunch is the one, the most extreme scenario here would be like they have a full on API the way you.com right now sells it, right? Which could be good for some people. My hunch is they're gonna try to drag your feet as much as possible on that for as long as possible because that is very much core IP for them. And then they're also going to realize that the index, the way it used to be built was for people to decide which of ten to links to click on. Our index now is looking very different. It can go deeper, it can crawl more, it has these decomposable components, and it actually gives you much more content per link back rather than just a short snippet the way like the Google search results would.

• 2:37:09Richard Socher?

  And so by the time this all comes out and this might become available, maybe as an API, it'll probably be somewhat outdated for the use cases L M's need.

• 2:37:19John Coogan?

  Do we need an API here? I feel like if I have an AI agent that has a browser, the browser can go to Google and search for me and then scrape the results. Like, is not the the front end the API? Like, does Google have a like a blocker on this? Like, can OpenAI not just Google things? Like, they certain their employees can Google things, I imagine. But can they not like resell that to me in their chat app? Like, what's the dynamic there?

• 2:37:50Richard Socher?

  Yeah, it's a really interesting world, actually. You know, there are not many real web indices out there and you have a lot of startups, including some of our competitors, who essentially just do what you described. Who so-called Serp APIs and proxy networks where you have your phone, you have your smart TV and you install some app and that app then has some SDK installed somewhere where if you're not using your phone or your TV, it becomes an IP address.

• 2:38:17John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:38:18Richard Socher?

  And then pretends to be a user, goes to scrapes the content from a search query in that. Sends it back to centralized IP and then folks sell search results, but they're really Google results, like literally biggest competitors in the consumer space are just really fast at scraping Google results and then connecting it to an LM and doing all of that. It's hilarious. Now, the problem of that is that A, if you're a bigger company like OpenAI or Facebook Meta, like they wouldn't want to send all of their data and all their queries to Google, right? They're literally trying to compete with them. So that's not an ideal setting. Um, two, it doesn't really scale. Um, like, because Google can and does shut down these proxy networks all the

• 2:39:00Richard Socher?

  time and they try to block it and have CAPTCHA's and all of that. And then three, as it, you know, as you go through someone's random phone and maybe they did click on something, now it's really slow and there's slow response times. And so where we actually have benchmarks that we can, you know, back up, we can go on you.com and find them. Like, we are super fast and we're more accurate than Google's sort of APIs and that is very unique in the market.

• 2:39:24John Coogan?

  What about this news? It just broke that, um, Apple will be potentially partnering with Google to have Siri powered by some sort of version of Gemini. Was that on your bingo card? Was that expected? Does that seem like a reasonable, uh, kind of end state of the market, uh, dynamic? I was, I was talking about this earlier.

• 2:39:49Jordi Hays?

  Feels very, yeah, something that feels like it'd be on your, on like, uh, your forecast, given that you guys are helping a lot of companies build these sort of like knowledge.

• 2:40:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, like if you're, if you're in like business 101 going to Silicon Valley, you would say that like, the ability to search and get great results is valuable. Therefore, Apple would be paying Google for search results. But in fact, the money flows the other direction because the search, because Google's making $60 billion a year or whatever off of, uh, off of Safari search results. And so how do you see the relationship and the, and the economic flow changing there? I think the news report was that Anthropic wanted 1.5 billion and Apple said that's too much. We're going with Google and Google will be getting less than 1.5 billion, maybe from Apple for the rights to use the LLMs. But yeah, what's your take on all that?

• 2:40:43Richard Socher?

  Yeah, so a couple of different angles here. So one, it's surprising that Apple cannot do it themselves still. Like, it's kind of crazy and surprising. They're like, you know, trillions of dollars worth and somehow are not able to execute on this themselves. Um, the second thing, and you know, they have great privacy at Apple, but then, you know, they partner with companies that have a different stance on privacy. So there's like interesting complexities there. The second thing is that, uh, indeed, you know, uh, one of the biggest changes also of the, um, uh, of the ruling today was that Apple is, will continue to be allowed to take the 20 billion to not build their own search index, right?

• 2:41:25Richard Socher?

  Um, so that's, that's a really interesting part of the ruling too. Google is allowed to still pay Apple $20 billion a year to stay the default. Um, so that is, is a really important piece of this whole situation because defaults are very strong. I don't know where I read this, but like 80% of all iPhone users never change a single setting. Maybe not your viewers, but many normal iPhone users, they don't change any setting ever. So if you're default, you'll be on there forever.

• 2:41:50John Coogan?

  I wonder how, I, I, I mean, I imagine.

• 2:41:52Jordi Hays?

  No settings app for me. Don't, don't need.

• 2:41:54John Coogan?

  I don't need to adjust the volume. I'll never adjust the brightness of my screen. Not a single setting. No, I imagine that it's like deeper in the settings, of course.

• 2:42:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:01John Coogan?

  Uh, that is hilarious. Uh, anyway, uh, do you have anything else? We're.

• 2:42:04Jordi Hays?

  No, it's, uh, very happy, uh, to, to hear about your, your progress.

• 2:42:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, congratulations. This is awesome.

• 2:42:11Richard Socher?

  Thank you.

• 2:42:11John Coogan?

  I, I.

• 2:42:12Richard Socher?

  Yeah, it's my favorite new pun, unicorn.

• 2:42:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, there we go. There we go.

• 2:42:16Jordi Hays?

  Unicorn, unicorn.

• 2:42:18John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 2:42:18Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, tremendous. Uh, thanks for joining.

• 2:42:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, we'll talk to you soon. Have a great rest of your day. Our next guest is already in the restream waiting room. We got Pablo from Happy Robot and I think we got some more news. Let me put my pack in here so I can get ready. Let's bring in.

• 2:42:36Jordi Hays?

  Pablo.

• 2:42:37John Coogan?

  Pablo, how you doing?

• 2:42:38Jordi Hays?

  Welcome to the show.

• 2:42:43John Coogan?

  How are things?

• 2:42:43Jordi Hays?

  Can you hear us?

• 2:42:44John Coogan?

  Are the robots happy? Are they sad? Are they going to turn into Terminators? What's the plan?

• 2:42:48Jordi Hays?

  Can you hear us? Can you hear us?

• 2:42:50Speaker 06

  Sorry guys.

• 2:42:50John Coogan?

  No worries. We're good.

• 2:42:52Speaker 06

  Probably watching you live.

• 2:42:55John Coogan?

  We're going to work on this.

• 2:42:56Jordi Hays?

  You're like, oh, that's me.

• 2:42:57John Coogan?

  Send it back to you. But thanks so much for hopping on. Give us the update. Give us the news. What's latest?

• 2:43:02Speaker 06

  We just raised our Series V, 44 mil.

• 2:43:07Speaker 06

  Let's go.

• 2:43:08Jordi Hays?

  Let's go. Forty-four, great number. Great number.

• 2:43:11John Coogan?

  Take us through the story of the company. What unlocked this fundraising round? What are the biggest drivers of growth for the business?

• 2:43:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, to set the scene a little bit for the, for the audience. We're building the AI workforce for an entire industry, for supply chain. There's a lot of work that is very repetitive and manual in that industry. Quote us and take my, my hat off to all of those folks who are running those operations every day so that you guys can have that very cool RAM VPN hat on your doorstep every time you order on Amazon or any other platform, right? So we are powering those operations so that we take away the work, out of work. We're trying to lift off the, the mundane and repetitive tasks from those folks running operations in supply chain and logistics so that they can focus on the more strategic and higher value tasks. We started over a year and a half ago, raised our Series A last summer,

• 2:44:06Speaker 06

  announced December last year, raised 15 mil from, from Andreessen Horowitz. Now we, now it's our, our B with Basedin and follow on from other folks like YC and XTC. Very excited to be here, yes.

• 2:44:19John Coogan?

  Is it fair to characterize this as like AI ERP? Like, like how much of this is like, like, you know, some sort of like point solution within the supply chain and operations stack versus like system of record?

• 2:44:33Speaker 06

  Really building that system of record that a layer of interaction, we call it. So we define it as a layer of interaction, layer of connectivity, if you will, that sits on top of the actual data that already exists today. You can have a transportation management system, a warehouse management system, an ERP. If you're talking about the shippers and distributors, today we serve multiple verticals within supply chain. Shippers is one, freight brokers is another one, ocean carriers is another one, right? But, but right on, right? Like this is exactly what we're doing. We're building that layer of interaction so that users don't have to go and look for that little detail on the TMS. Where the shit, where the hell is my load, right? Where's my truck today? Oh, let me just look it up on these messy UI from the ninety, from the eighties, you know what I mean?

• 2:45:16Speaker 06

  Uh, instead they just go and chat with their data. And not only that, AI also is exposed to the customers, to the vendors that are calling in every day. We're automating over a million phone calls every week with our customers. We serve eight of the top ten.

• 2:45:30Jordi Hays?

  Million phone calls.

• 2:45:32Speaker 06

  Lot of, lot of, a lot of emails as well. Ultimately, our customers come to us, customers like DHL or Uber Freight come to us to automate what their team doesn't want to do. Yeah. What's the split?

• 2:45:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so, so how, yeah, have, have you guys had a, had a more, you know, working with Uber Freight, DHLs? Are you taking more enterprise focus? Because I know there's a long tail of players in, in logistics and, and, and supply chain broadly. Uh, but, but are you, are you focusing there or going up market?

• 2:46:02Speaker 06

  Fully focused on, on enterprise. Uh, we're very lucky to have been able to, to cater to these enterprises from very early on. Um, I think AI has unlocked that capability in startups. Maybe 10 years ago it was harder to tap into the enterprises. Today, they just understand that they don't have the AI capabilities themselves. So they're just looking at it at whoever is tempted or, or willing to go into that space. We were early on in, in the space of supply chain and logistics. And we've kind of defined that category for AI agents in this space. So they, they really don't have anyone else to go to. They just come to, to us as a trusted partner. And that's really what our customers are looking for. They're looking for a, for a, for an AI partner, really. Uh, you're based in San Francisco? Yeah.

• 2:46:47Speaker 06

  Fantastic.

• 2:46:49John Coogan?

  Because there's this big German company that's been in this space forever and I can't wait to just like fully put them out of business and just make America dominant in enterprise resource planning. Let's make it happen. Jordy, anything else?

• 2:47:04Jordi Hays?

  No, what were you doing before this? Out of curiosity?

• 2:47:08Speaker 06

  I was doing my PhD in actually Germany. I was in Munich.

• 2:47:13Speaker 06

  I'm Spanish though. All three founders are, one of my co-founders is my brother who was there for a while and the other one is my best buddy from college from Spain. We studied in Madrid. But yeah, no, the company is based out of SF. We have offices in Madrid as well, opening up in Chicago and office now because of all the freight and logistics that.

• 2:47:31John Coogan?

  Maybe you gotta take the fight to Germany. You gotta invade Germany. Go raid back to the big boys, the big boys.

• 2:47:38Jordi Hays?

  I love it. Couple, couple brothers armed with, with $44 million, ready to do some international business.

• 2:47:44John Coogan?

  Love it.

• 2:47:45Jordi Hays?

  Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining. Congrats on, on, on all the progress.

• 2:47:50John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 2:47:51Jordi Hays?

  I'm sure you'll be back on soon. Given that the past couple raises, I'm sure you'll, you'll be.

• 2:47:56Speaker 06

  I'm excited. Let's do it. Let's pound for that. Appreciate it, guys.

• 2:47:59John Coogan?

  We will talk to you soon. Have a good one.

• 2:48:00Jordi Hays?

  Great chat.

• 2:48:01John Coogan?

  Our next guest is in the Restream waiting room already. We'll bring in Will from Exa with another massive fundraising round. You can do the honors on this one, Jordy. Let's bring Will in from the Restream waiting room into the TVP Ultradome. Welcome to Stream, Will. How you doing? How's your day?

• 2:48:18Jordi Hays?

  Hello. How you doing?

• 2:48:20John Coogan?

  What you got?

• 2:48:20Jordi Hays?

  What are, where are you sitting right now?

• 2:48:22John Coogan?

  Looks like you're on a train.

• 2:48:23Jordi Hays?

  I'm in a phone booth within our office.

• 2:48:25John Coogan?

  Okay, cool. We need some of these.

• 2:48:27Jordi Hays?

  Looked like it was like some type of tractor or something.

• 2:48:30John Coogan?

  This is the, this is the, the physical instantiation of the lock, the great lock-in of, of September to December. You get locked in a booth. Fantastic. You've clearly been locked in. What's the news?

• 2:48:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, the big, big day today. We just raised a series, we just announced our Series B. Eighty five.

• 2:48:53Speaker 02

  Sorry, couldn't hear you. Couldn't hear you.

• 2:48:58John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. Peter Fenton. That's exciting. What's it like working with him?

• 2:49:02Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, he's a legend. He, uh, he's super experienced. He's taken seven companies to IPO. He really, he just honestly, his vision for Exa was just like matched or exceeded ours. And so that was really exciting to work with a VC who just like saw what we saw and saw how big this company can get.

• 2:49:20John Coogan?

  Yeah. So he's joined the board. Had you worked with him before or is this new?

• 2:49:24Speaker 07

  No, no, I met him like a month ago, month and a half ago.

• 2:49:28John Coogan?

  Nice.

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  Fast friends.

• 2:49:29John Coogan?

  And partner. So, yeah, take us through the, the, the story of the business. I mean, only a couple of years old, well on your way to an overnight success. I think if we check in with you any decade, it would be pretty clear that you're an overnight success. But take us through the history of the company, where you are now, kind of what, what, what's been the key growth driver?

• 2:49:49Speaker 07

  Yeah. So we actually started in 2021. So summer 2021, this is way before ChatGPT. And the idea was like, you know, at the time, GB three had recently come out and it was like this magical thing that could understand like a whole paragraph of text. And then at the same time, there was Google, which felt like it hadn't changed in a decade. So the idea was what if we could build a search engine that was as smart as GB three, something like fully understand, understood the web and fully understand your query and get you like way better results than Google. And that's how we started. So not necessarily a search engine for AIs. It was more like a search engine for nerds because we were building it for ourselves. And then when ChatGPT came out a couple of years later, uh, it turned out that like the search engine we were building for ourselves for nerds is actually perfect for AIs because AIs and nerds are very similar. But yeah, I mean, it basically, we had to go build a search engine from scratch for years, which is really hard. So we did, you know, we bought a GPU, a million dollar GPU cluster after YC.

• 2:50:34Speaker 07

  We trained, you know, a ton of different models, tried a ton of different transformer architectures until we had like a new type of search engine.

• 2:50:41John Coogan?

  So, so the, uh, so the GPUs are trained to actually, so you're not doing, you're not doing crawling on GPUs, right? That's like traditional CPU workloads, right?

• 2:50:50Speaker 07

  That's right. Yeah. We do our CPU batch processing and then we train models on our GPUs.

• 2:50:54John Coogan?

  Okay. And, uh, and yeah, what, there's been a ton of news today in the search engine world with the Google news, like what, what, what's been your interpretation of it?

• 2:51:04Speaker 07

  Oh yeah, I mean, there's so much like what's crazy like AI is very exciting, but then search for AI is like now the most exciting space is really cool. I think everyone's realizing that like, sure, like we want smarter and smarter LLMs, but really we want more knowledgeable LLMs. Like, we want to connect our LLMs to like the best data in the world. And search is like basically the most important tool to connect your LM2. And so, yeah, I mean, it's pretty exciting that there's Google News, like, for example, like, yeah, I mean, they're sharing their data has one thing about the search space is everything is very counterintuitive. So, for example, like, if everyone now has access to Google's data, people are less incentivized to build new search engines, which is interesting. So, there's all sorts of counterintuitive like things in the search space.

• 2:51:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, so what, so, yeah, what, how does that shape like your strategy? Because it feels like right now, Google's not only like the, they have the search monopoly, they were kind of like, you know, found guilty of that. The remedies are not exactly putting them on the back foot. The stock's up 8% today, and it feels like they're partnering even, they're going even deeper with Apple, potentially. The Bloomberg reporting that just came out is that there are rumors that, that Apple will be partnering with Gemini to test out if Siri can be powered by Gemini, which is obviously built on top of the Google crawler and Google's search index. And so, i- is the future for you look like a really long tail of, you know, tons of

• 2:52:28John Coogan?

  businesses that need to use some sort, some form of like best-in-class search and they can't go to Google for, for a particular reason at like an API level because Google doesn't want to sell that as a product and you're there to sell that?

• 2:52:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's exactly right. Like, a big difference between us and Google is that Google is not trying to be search infrastructure. They're trying to be a platform, like, they want people to go to Google. And, but we are uniquely trying to be search infrastructure. So, we want a long tail of companies, like every company to be able to have the highest quality search inside their applications. And so, that makes us very unique. Like, when we said we were a search engine for AIs like a couple of years ago, in, no one really got what that means, but I think that world has really played out where now we have, you know, thousands of companies using Exa powering all sorts of applications, whether internal or external with high-quality search. And, and like you said, like, Google doesn't, like, is not doing that, like, they're not going to have an API because-

• 2:53:18Jordi Hays?

  Well, there's a lot of searches that are valuable in the context of specific applications that are actually not even that valuable to Google, right? Like

• 2:53:25Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 2:53:26Jordi Hays?

  Like when you're trying to retrieve information that you can then take action on, that's not necessarily something that Google is like, you know, able to run a bunch of great ads against.

• 2:53:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:36Jordi Hays?

  Is that right?

• 2:53:37Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's right. And the business model determines, basically, what you're saying is business model determines, uh, like how the search feels or how the algorithm works. And so, for example, like, Google's really bad at recruiting. Like, you can't use Google to find, like, give me all the engineers in San Francisco who have, like, a PhD in machine learning and get a list of those things. Like, why isn't Google good at that? Well, it doesn't make them more ad revenue. Whereas we're very good at that because all sorts of customers, AI applications, want that high-quality knowledge. And so, like, you're, the, the end user you're selling to, like, really determines the search algorithm, which, which also makes us very unique.

• 2:54:06John Coogan?

  Yeah. What is the value of actually training a model? I feel like there's enough of a business, I don't know if now's the best time for this, for that particular business, but, but like, just being the best web scraper index, you have all the, every single webpage perfectly indexed in a database that people can query, that feels like a valuable product in and of itself. Um, and then someone else brings their foundation model to bear on top of your search index and you're a partner to the big labs that train the big models. Why are you training your own model?

• 2:54:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, well, the easy part is actually gathering all the data. I mean, it's hard, you need like crazy, uh, scale infrastructure, but it's, it's an engineering problem. Once you gather all that, you know, trillions of pages, the hard part is how do you filter those trillion pages to the right 10 or 100 pages in real time? And that's where all the secret sauce is. And so, like, we train our own, and we, we train embedding models because

• 2:54:59John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:55:00Speaker 07

  we see that as the, like, the, the way to get the highest-quality search. Like, how do you get, like, perfect search over the world's information? You need to train all these, like, crazy neural, uh, models, which is, in contrast to the old world, which is, like, Google, for example, mostly uses a keyword-based method. Obviously, they use

• 2:55:12John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:55:13Speaker 07

  a mix of things, but like, we, we're very bitter lesson pill at Exa, and so we believe if you have the right, uh, you know, a training data set and like, uh, feedback signal, you can get an extremely good search engine for the thing you're training for.

• 2:55:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:24Speaker 07

  So that's like our approach.

• 2:55:26John Coogan?

  When you say you're bitter lesson pill, I feel like that's rough because like who's more bitter lesson pill than Google? Like they have the most data, the most compute deep mine and all this other stuff like, like what is the, can you walk me through like the counter positioning against, against like Google's like business here? I, I, the, the whole like Google will do it is like a complete trite over, I don't believe in it. I bullish on you, you know, but like, there is something weird about what you just said in that I would expect Google to be able to move off of keyword pretty quickly, uh, at least from a technology perspective.

• 2:55:59Speaker 07

  Yeah. Well, there are two things. So one, it actually is kind of hard for, uh, for a giant ship to switch to a different algorithm. That's like, they have, that works really well. It's very reliable and there are a lot of benefits to the keywords we're talking.

• 2:56:09John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:56:10Speaker 07

  And so it's, it's, it's hard. You know, you have a lot of people at the organization who are like in there for decades who are like have a certain thing. Uh, you have all sorts of like, uh, advertisements that are connected to the keywords actually. So it's like, but, and I think the, the more important thing is that it comes back to the, the way the revenue model. So they are serving humans with ads. And so to, like, and by the way, Google is fantastic at that. Like Google has built an amazing consumer search engine for humans to make money from ads and, uh, and optimize for what humans click on. But that's not what AI applications want. So a critical part, point of X is that like we are optimizing for a different thing than Google. Google is optimized for humans and clicks and ads. We are optimizing for AIs and AI applications and like all these complex searches that this new AI world makes. And so that, that explains like, even if we both have a ton of compute, uh, we'll build very different search algorithms.

• 2:56:54John Coogan?

  Yeah. It does seem like with the, uh, what is it? AI search overviews, like those have at least anecdotally been hallucinating like crazy. So, um, they definitely have some gaps to bridge between like some phenomenal stuff going on in Gemini and some frontier level, uh, like reasoning models and then some very reliable Google search results. And then the, the AI search overviews, still they haven't fully solved the hallucination problem and some grounding in truth there. Obviously a problem there.

• 2:57:21Jordi Hays?

  You guys compete with, with you.com? We just had Richard on, Richard on? Is that, is that, or is it, is it, it's not a lot, not a lot of.

• 2:57:29John Coogan?

  You're like, if I see him, it's on site.

• 2:57:31Jordi Hays?

  Well, it's funny, if you both announcing fundraises today, uh, maybe, I don't know if that was random.

• 2:57:37Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, they they mentioned that they do search and they also do AI agents. So like, we are definitely like in a similar space. I would say like the the space is very hot. Like the market, everyone realizing the market is massive.

• 2:57:49John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:57:49Speaker 07

  Uh, and so like, you know, I welcome other players there. Uh, I think, you know, we've been doing this for many years.

• 2:57:55Jordi Hays?

  You welcome them, but you encourage them to take the full Memorial or Labor Day weekend off. You said, yeah, you guys should, it's a hot space. It's gonna be a long road. Just take the full three day vacation. We grind.

• 2:58:06John Coogan?

  Uh, okay, sorry, last question for me. Um, you bought a GPU cluster. That can mean a million different things. Uh, what does that mean? Do you own the land? Do you own the data center? Do you own the cards? Do you own a space within Azure? Like, there's so many different, are you partner with a Neo cloud? Like, what can you tell me about what it means to actually own or manage a GPU cluster? What are the best practices? Like, what actually works? You're down dealing with depreciation. There's so much going on. Love to just learn more about like owning and managing a GPU cluster as a startup, not as some hyperscaler.

• 2:58:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, sure. So in terms of like getting GPUs, like there are a couple of options, like you could spin up on demand clusters.

• 2:58:45John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:58:45Speaker 07

  Uh, which is more expensive.

• 2:58:46John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:58:47Speaker 07

  But if if your workloads are like very like spiky, then that makes sense. But for us, we're doing constant research. So we want something that we're like constantly using, gets like, you know, eighty percent utilization. When you start to have that kind of utilization, then you want to get like either reserved or your own cluster.

• 2:58:59John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:58:59Speaker 07

  And, you know, do the math and like, uh, you know, it it often makes sense to buy your own cluster if you're crazy enough to like set it up. If you have, you know, if you have the expertise to set it up and and you could customize in all different ways. And so, yeah, we kind of went that route. Also, it's just fricking badass and like we know we're gonna figure and we want to have experience like building clusters. I would say like, we're not.

• 2:59:18John Coogan?

  So you have servers like in your office, like the cluster exists physically or get, because like George Hots literally has like server racks in his comma AI. Spot in in San Diego and it's like the craziest thing you've ever seen. Then Nat Friedman, when he was doing NFDG, he spun up the Andromeda cluster. And that was more like in partnership with someone else, which made a lot more sense because like, why do you have to learn how power routes necessarily? Like, that's not necessarily the differentiator.

• 2:59:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, so we don't, well, we're not big enough yet. Or our previous one wasn't big enough where we had to buy the land or buy the data center. We have a part of the data center. But you know, as we expand, at some point, we'll have our own data.

• 2:59:54Jordi Hays?

  I see land on your horizon, Will.

• 2:59:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, I think you got to vertically integrate. You got to buy an oil and gas tract. You got to buy the natural gas resources in the ground. Buy the sand that you can turn into silicon. Fab your own chips. Design your own chips. You got to be vertically integrated. It's the only way to win.

• 3:00:13Speaker 07

  From sand to search.

• 3:00:14John Coogan?

  Exactly, from sand to search.

• 3:00:15Jordi Hays?

  That's a great, that's a great line.

• 3:00:17John Coogan?

  Print it, put it on a T-shirt.

• 3:00:18Jordi Hays?

  Give them, I've seen enough, give them 10 billion.

• 3:00:20John Coogan?

  Give them 10 billion. Thank you so much for wrapping on. Jordy, you got anything else?

• 3:00:24Jordi Hays?

  No, that's great. Awesome, awesome progress.

• 3:00:26John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 3:00:26Jordi Hays?

  Thanks for breaking it down for us.

• 3:00:28John Coogan?

  We will talk to you soon.

• 3:00:29Jordi Hays?

  Congrats to the whole team.

• 3:00:29John Coogan?

  Have a great one.

• 3:00:31Speaker 07

  Thanks.

• 3:00:31Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.

• 3:00:32John Coogan?

  Our next guest, Charlie from Orchard Robotics, is in the restream waiting room. We'll bring in Charlie from Orchard.ai.

• 3:00:39Jordi Hays?

  Charlie, Charlie, Charlie.

• 3:00:41John Coogan?

  Orchard, Orchard.

• 3:00:44Jordi Hays?

  A teal fellow Cornell dropout.

• 3:00:46John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 3:00:47Jordi Hays?

  A legend.

• 3:00:47John Coogan?

  Wild flush. How you doing, Charlie?

• 3:00:49Jordi Hays?

  Charlie, it's great to have you in the UltraDome.

• 3:00:52Speaker 04

  Great to be on the Temple of Technology, the capital of capital.

• 3:00:55John Coogan?

  Welcome.

• 3:00:56Jordi Hays?

  There we go, there we go.

• 3:00:58John Coogan?

  What else can we do? Can we play a soundboard for you? Can we ring this gong for you? Do you have anything for us?

• 3:01:03Jordi Hays?

  It would be an honor to us.

• 3:01:04John Coogan?

  Give us something.

• 3:01:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, so today, we announced our $22 million Series A, led by Quiet Capital and China.

• 3:01:10John Coogan?

  Let's go.

• 3:01:12Speaker 04

  So excited to finally have this stuff out there. We've been growing the team a bunch. We've been scaling up our technology into a bunch of new farms. It's really been an exciting time these last couple of months.

• 3:01:21Jordi Hays?

  Thank you for making cool looking robots. We got to, we got to pull this, we got to, we'll have the team.

• 3:01:27John Coogan?

  Yes, yes. Pull up, pull up the landing page. I want to look through this. Also, thank you for making a company with a name that directly translates to what you do. Orchard.ai, it's a farming company. It's fantastic. And I love your background, by the way. How did you get into this? So you, did you just like do a market map and figure out there's opportunity in farming? Or did you have some background? How'd you land on that?

• 3:01:50Speaker 04

  My grandparents were actually Apple farmers. And my parents did agriculture before they immigrated to the US. I grew up in Virginia, gone to robotics early on, built my first robot when I was like seven years old. Trained my first MO model in middle school. Ended up going to school to study CS and mechanical engineering. And this was kind of during the COVID years and. People, a lot of people don't know this, but Cornell is actually the number one agriculture school in the nation and we have acres of apple. This robot, John.

• 3:02:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's a beautiful robot.

• 3:02:14Speaker 04

  You made a beautiful robot. Yeah, thank you. It's our amazing team made that. But it's been a pretty long journey the past three years to get to this point, actually. And you know, the first iteration of this was actually this huge six foot tall autonomous rover that I built my dorm room. And then we realized, wait a minute, you know, you don't really need a rover. You can just have a camera because you have trackers that go through the farms all day already. But really, I was talking to, I think, you know, when I first started the company, I talked to like a hundred different farmers, just drove around upstate New York, talked to everyone I could and basically learned that, you know, here in the US, even on the largest commercial farms, like these farmers are relying on very, very small amounts of data to make every decision. So, you know, say an apple farmer is going to send their 10 best workers out to the fields for an entire week to count and size fruit on trees.

• 3:02:59Speaker 04

  And maybe, you know, 400 man hours, they get to 500 trees. Seems like a lot until you realize there's five million trees in the farm. And that sample size is what they use to make every decision across their entire company, which is kind of insane to think about. But, you know, we're helping them get there. You started, are you starting with counting? Which sounds simple, but. We can do a lot of things. We started with, now we can count and size, measure color, measure gray, detect disease, measure growth rate, inventories of plants, basically tell a farmer everything they want to know that can be, you know, gleaned from visual information out in the fields, which is, you know, pretty much all the important information that they've, you know, been lacking for these last couple of decades.

• 3:03:39John Coogan?

  Nerd out with me for a second on the hardware. I see a bunch of different lenses and cameras on here. I imagine that, that you're driving right by a tree, there's going to be apples that are obscured by leaves, you need high definition, some 4K, 8K, some zoomed in, some zoomed out. Like, what's the optic stack that gets you enough resolution or data to actually determine, you know, is this an apple or is this apple healthy? Like, walk me through that decision.

• 3:04:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, we have four lenses on each of our cameras and they're basically two stereo pairs. We use stereo vision, they're RGB cameras. They're pretty much off the shelf cameras. Camera technology is really good in the last couple of years. The real magic is in the machine learning models that we run on the edge. So we have some state of the art multi-object detection tracking models that we run on camera cameras. We have Nvidia jets and Orin set every single one of them that run these models at the edge. And we can basically do things like, you know, of the hundred images we take every single second, we can tell, you know, even through occlusion, through, you know, things like leaves blocking fruit or fruit that are, you know, as small as five millimeters, we can actually size. You actually hit the nail on the head. We have a really wide angle lens and a really narrow angle lens.

• 3:04:51Speaker 04

  And that lets, you know, do things like zoom in to see very, very small things, but also things like a, you know, 12 foot tall tree from three or four feet away.

• 3:04:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:59Jordi Hays?

  Being a farmer and just refreshing your dashboard and seeing that you have a bountiful harvest must, must, must hit extremely hard. How do you, how do you, how do you sell the robots? Are you like, I imagine if this is replacing the need to send hundred, you know, hundreds of people or a bunch of people into the field to like physically count fruit. It's a, it can pay itself back fairly quickly, but what's the, what's the business model?

• 3:05:24Speaker 04

  Yeah. So we actually charge a per acre, per year subscription fee. So it's similar to SaaS pricing where it scales with John, the number of acres they use it on. We, since the hardware is so, you know, relatively inexpensive, we actually don't even charge for the hardware. It's, it's, it's, you know, boxed in with the subscription fee. So it's really easy and not capital intensive for a farmer to, you know, try on a couple of hundred acres and then scale into thousands or 10s of thousands of acres.

• 3:05:48John Coogan?

  Are those LED lights on the sides of the robot?

• 3:05:50Speaker 04

  They are. Yeah. They're LED strobe lights. So even at night we can operate.

• 3:05:54John Coogan?

  Oh, and you, and you only strobe them when you're taking a picture with the cameras to save energy?

• 3:05:59Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 3:05:59John Coogan?

  Makes a ton of sense.

• 3:06:00Speaker 04

  All of the cameras are powered. So we actually can power them off of any 12 volt power source. So we, you know, we have farmers that actually plug them into like the, uh, the 12 volt sockets, like the car jacks, like on your car. We have, you know, like people who use external batteries, you know, you can wire it into like, you know, the, the car battery of any tractor or ATV. It's really worth it.

• 3:06:19John Coogan?

  What's the, what's the refresh rate on the flashing on the strobes? Are you doing like one per second or something?

• 3:06:25Speaker 04

  It's, it's more, it depends, but it's more than 15 times a second compared to.

• 3:06:30John Coogan?

  15 times a second, you're flashing LED lights. Is this going to make squirrels go insane?

• 3:06:37Speaker 04

  Hopefully the squirrels aren't awake at night.

• 3:06:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, go to sleep squirrels. Yeah. We're doing, we're farming out here. We're farming, get out of here. Yeah, I mean, maybe there's a pest control. We talked to the laser weeder guy and maybe there's a pest control angle where maybe you can also. Do you have a lot of VCs early on tell you to, tell you to pick a different category? Oh, yeah.

• 3:06:57Speaker 04

  It actually, it's, it's, it's a good point that you brought up because, you know, we started this company back in March of 2022. And it was actually, I think it was around the time that like the whole American dynamism thing.

• 3:07:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, they were like, please make weapons. Make weapons, I'll give you a hundred million. Put a gun on it.

• 3:07:14Speaker 04

  I, I, I remember actually when I, when I met my first like VC ever, they were like, oh, you should pivot into crypto. Like that, that was the, because this is March of 2022 is before everything came, you know, tumbling down. And, you know, we were like, ah, no, don't really want to have crypto. I think, you know, this is my life's work. I'm going to do this for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Um, and, you know, I think over the last year or so, there's been kind of this rise in, you know, robotics and American dynamism. And, you know, like manufacturing, all these like industry things. And, you know, suddenly, you know, agriculture and ag tech is sexy now. And, you know, it's been, you know, uh, when we went out to raise this last round, it was, I'd say a bit, I don't say easy. Nothing's ever easy, but you know, it was, it was a lot better than, you know, when we were raising our first two rounds.

• 3:07:56John Coogan?

  You could have gone into beans. Do you remember beans?

• 3:07:59Speaker 04

  Hey, you know, I, I've actually heard that coffee beans are a pretty big market out of Hawaii.

• 3:08:05John Coogan?

  I'm talking about the crypto project beans. I don't know if you've heard of this, but it was popular on Twitter for like, you know, right around that time, right about when you would have been print, uh, pivoting from agriculture themed robotics into agriculture themed crypto. It was a very popular crypto app where you would put your, the whole thing was like staking coins. But the metaphor was like, you stake your beans and your beans harvest and they yield and stuff. And then. Every, there were tons of people that all of a sudden, they put in like a thousand dollars and then they like the harvest came and they were worth like a million dollars on paper. But then the thing got hacked and so they lost all their money. It was a wild.

• 3:08:45Jordi Hays?

  I'm glad, I'm glad you tripled down.

• 3:08:47John Coogan?

  Seems like you did something much more value creative.

• 3:08:49Jordi Hays?

  And it feels like, I have to imagine, this is like already helping solve labor shortages with farms. And the same thing that, you know, when people sell in AI to the enterprise, they're saying, we're freeing up people's time to do higher leverage work. And like counting and doing, doing, doing this stuff, you know, you're sort of like getting the state of things by, by understanding like crop yields and things like that. And then I imagine this is freeing up labor to like actually take action to increase yields and fight off pests and things like that, that, that actually impact the bottom line.

• 3:09:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, the big thing is, you know, not only is it freeing up labor from, you know, having to go out and do this counting and sampling work, but perhaps the more important thing that's actually being, you know, done in the immediate ROI, a lot of our farmers can see is actually a reduction in labor costs and crop inputs. Because right now, what, you know, this is a bit of a simplification, but what happens across a lot of these farms is that, you know, a farmer who's managing millions of trees and thousands of acres might go out and say, hey, you know, this is like one, you know, 50 acre plot of land. I'm going to do the exact same thing to every one of the 50,000 trees in this 50 acre plot of land. When in reality, half the trees might only need half the amount of, you know, pests, their pruning or, you know, fertilizers, you know, whatever it is they might be applying or doing to those trees.

• 3:10:09Speaker 04

  So it's very one size fits all. And, you know, we can tell these farmers things like, hey, wait a minute, in this half of this block, it only needs, you know, half the amount of pruning. You only need to send half the amount of workers into that half and suddenly you're saving 25% of labor costs in that block. So, you know, that's probably one of the first big things that a lot of our customers notice when they use our technology is just this, you know, ability to see where you need more of something and where you need less of something else. And you can see pretty immediate labor and cost savings just from that alone. But, you know, in the long run, we have this. I guess this conception of what we call like an AI farmer, which is that if we can see, you know, tens or hundreds or, you know, like billions of trees across their entire life cycles, across multiple seasons, we can start training large embedding models and all of this data

• 3:10:53Speaker 04

  that can basically farm or know how to farm better than any human ever could because it has so much experience. And, you know, from there, it's like, what can we do with that? Right? We get down to the tree level and like prescribe, you know, individual recommendations to what every single plant in a farm needs. And that's super exciting. I mean, I think that's ultimately where, you know, a lot of this technology is going to go over the next couple of years.

• 3:11:13John Coogan?

  It's amazing.

• 3:11:14Jordi Hays?

  I'm incredibly bullish on you and Orchard.

• 3:11:17John Coogan?

  Extremely bullish for Arowan, too.

• 3:11:20John Coogan?

  Very exciting. Uh, thank you so much for hopping on.

• 3:11:22Jordi Hays?

  Congrats, Charlie. Uh, it's, uh, it's great to get the story and, uh, I'm sure you'll be back on very soon.

• 3:11:28John Coogan?

  We're excited for it.

• 3:11:29Speaker 04

  Amazing. Thank you, guys.

• 3:11:30Jordi Hays?

  And send me, send me, send me your address, too.

• 3:11:32Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, I'll send you an Orchard hat, yeah, in exchange for this.

• 3:11:36Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, we're gonna need a robot to count and make sure nobody's overdosing on caffeine in this studio. That's, that's a problem we have.

• 3:11:43John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon.

• 3:11:44Jordi Hays?

  Great talking.

• 3:11:45John Coogan?

  Happy rest of your day.

• 3:11:47Jordi Hays?

  What a legend.

• 3:11:48John Coogan?

  His product's called Fruit Scope. And we gotta talk about no scopes. 360 no scopes. A Call of Duty movie is officially in the works. This could be the second movie that Jordy sees in his entire life after Borat. Borat will be the first one.

• 3:12:03Jordi Hays?

  Thank you.

• 3:12:04John Coogan?

  Would you see the Call of Duty movie? Paramount also has the rights to expand Call of Duty into a multi, into a universe of multiple films and TV shows.

• 3:12:13Jordi Hays?

  I wouldn't just watch it. I would study it.

• 3:12:15John Coogan?

  Sit down and listen. I would sit down and listen to the Call of Duty movie. The Call of Duty movie is, seems like a no-brainer. Seems awesome. Um, Doddford, a great YouTube creator, uh, says, "The sensible thing to do would be adapting Black Ops or Modern Warfare. Instead, I fear they'll do a Minecraft movie-esque comedy with trick shots and noob tubes." Uh, what do you think? Do you think they're gonna go slapstick comedy lighter PG 13 jokey for kids? Or do you think they will actually try and make it like Black Hawk Down gritty, serious? Like, you know, uh...

• 3:12:53Jordi Hays?

  Brain rot or?

• 3:12:54John Coogan?

  I think, I don't think they're gonna go comedy. I think they're gonna go, uh, oh, Jordy saw Mountain Head. Daniel's cracking me. That's true.

• 3:13:02Jordi Hays?

  I did, and I.

• 3:13:03John Coogan?

  So this will be the third movie.

• 3:13:04Jordi Hays?

  I felt like I needed to give a review.

• 3:13:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:06Jordi Hays?

  I'll watch.

• 3:13:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:13:08Jordi Hays?

  And, uh.

• 3:13:08John Coogan?

  Well, we'll have to give a review of the Call of Duty movie, obviously. Everyone will demand it.

• 3:13:13Jordi Hays?

  And listen. Uh, well.

• 3:13:14John Coogan?

  Very exciting.

• 3:13:15Jordi Hays?

  We have to get over onto Substack.

• 3:13:18John Coogan?

  We gotta hop on with Philadelphia.

• 3:13:20Jordi Hays?

  That's right. Uh, no, but we actually are gonna do a live over on Substack right now.

• 3:13:24John Coogan?

  You can go watch us on Substack. You might already be watching on Substack. Uh, we're gonna be live with Emily Sundberg.

• 3:13:30Jordi Hays?

  We'll see you tomorrow.

• 3:13:32John Coogan?

  Thank you. We'll see you tomorrow.

• 3:13:33Jordi Hays?

  Have a great evening.

• 3:13:34John Coogan?

  Goodbye.

• 3:13:34Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.