GPT 4.5 Comparison, Where's the Moat?, RIP Skype, Sulek Earns Pro Card, Cursor for Figma

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  You're watching TVPN live from the Temple of Technology, the Fortress of Finance. That's right, the capital of capital. Today is Friday, February 28th, and we got to say happy birthday to our Vice President, Ben. He's back in the studio.

• 0:14Jordi Hays?

  Ben.

• 0:16John Coogan?

  They tried, the enemies tried to take him down.

• 0:19Jordi Hays?

  They could not.

• 0:20John Coogan?

  They couldn't do it. He's too powerful. But we got a great show for you today. We're covering GPT 4.5. We're going to answer the question, what do you get when you spend 10 times as much money pre-training an LLM? There's been a bunch of conversation on the timeline about this. We're going to break it all down. Also, Skype is shutting down. I'm sure we'll have to do a little moment of silence for that. Tell some stories about our early Skype usage days. Give you a little background on the company and how they wound up there. And then the timeline has just been in turmoil. So we're going to be spending a ton of time on the timeline.

• 0:53Jordi Hays?

  To say the least.

• 0:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's been spicy.

• 0:55Jordi Hays?

  To say the least.

• 0:55John Coogan?

  This, this morning, there's been drama and there's been tons of fun posts as always. So stay tuned. We got a great show for you today. Jordy, how are you feeling?

• 1:04Jordi Hays?

  I am feeling good. I'm a little frustrated because Ben didn't tell us that it was his birthday until about five minutes ago. And you know how people are, you know, they try to be nonchalant, you know, they'll wait till it's, it's almost, you know, we got an hour till it's noon.

• 1:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20Jordi Hays?

  And he just drops, oh yeah, it's actually my birthday today.

• 1:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23Jordi Hays?

  Cool, cool. You're so nonchalant. No, tell me.

• 1:27John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:27Jordi Hays?

  Tell, he's, Ben's going to mute me, but no, this goes out to all the nonchalant birthday boys out there. Tell us, tell us it's your birthday.

• 1:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36Jordi Hays?

  A week, a month before, a week before, a day before, in the morning of.

• 1:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40Jordi Hays?

  And so we can really lock you.

• 1:41John Coogan?

  I want to know so I can set up singing Telegram, mariachis.

• 1:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:45John Coogan?

  We were at breakfast with Ben earlier today. I should have had the whole staff come out and sing him happy birthday.

• 1:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:49John Coogan?

  I would have done that.

• 1:49Jordi Hays?

  Pancakes, pancakes with candles on them.

• 1:50John Coogan?

  Exactly, pancakes with candles. But he robbed us of that opportunity. Anyway.

• 1:54Jordi Hays?

  And I will never forgive you for that, Ben.

• 1:57John Coogan?

  Anyway, Jordy, would you like to hear a joke?

• 1:59Jordi Hays?

  I love your jokes.

• 2:00John Coogan?

  You love my jokes, but these aren't my jokes.

• 2:02Jordi Hays?

  You didn't write this.

• 2:02John Coogan?

  I didn't write this joke. This is what, this is a joke written by a model that cost $5 trillion, actually.

• 2:09Jordi Hays?

  We should get into the actual cost, but for those that are maybe listening for the first time.

• 2:13John Coogan?

  This is my default eval.

• 2:15Jordi Hays?

  This is John's eval.

• 2:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17Jordi Hays?

  Your Coogan's eval, and we should, we should actually, you gotta coin.

• 2:20John Coogan?

  We gotta coin this.

• 2:21Jordi Hays?

  So Coogan's eval is where you take the new model and you say, tell me a funny joke. Make sure it's actually a funny joke, like a stand-up set and not just a knock-knock joke or something simple.

• 2:31John Coogan?

  Literally my prompt.

• 2:32Jordi Hays?

  My favorite comedians are Shane Gillis, Dave Chappelle, et cetera. And so why don't you read out the joke and.

• 2:39John Coogan?

  Buckle up. I mean, you're gonna be in tears. We should get some tears because you're gonna be laughing so hard. So, hey, you ever notice how technology makes us think we're way smarter than we actually are? Like, I realized this when my wifi went out the other day. I immediately panicked because without Google, I'm basically just an ape holding an iPhone. Seriously, if you took me back to the Middle Ages and asked me how to build a simple pulley system, I'd be like, uh, you got YouTube here? Everybody, AGI achieved, AGI achieved. Hang it up.

• 3:16Jordi Hays?

  AGI achieved externally.

• 3:19John Coogan?

  It's incredible, amazing. Of course, that's not the goal of these models. Their job is to work in the mines.

• 3:26Jordi Hays?

  Are you gonna?

• 3:27John Coogan?

  Oh, you want me to keep going? It's so bad. Okay, so, and it's not just the internet. Remember when we thought Alexa and Siri were gonna make our lives easier? Now it's just me arguing with a speaker about whether I said play Kanye or order pad Thai. My credit card's maxed out, but hey, my Spotify playlist is fire.

• 3:50Jordi Hays?

  I like how it just throws in this completely random non sequitur.

• 3:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, I don't get, why is it maxed out? Cause he's paying for like AI tools or something?

• 3:59Jordi Hays?

  Pad Thai?

• 4:00John Coogan?

  I don't know. Speaking of tech, I think the weirdest part about AI isn't that it's smarter than us. It's that it's becoming more human. We're programmed, we programmed AI to mimic humans. And now AI lies, makes mistakes and blames other people. We invented digital middle management. Congratulations, humanity. We've automated incompetence.

• 4:22John Coogan?

  Wow, a real knee slapper, right? Perfect, I mean, I, was that stolen from Shane Gillis or Dave Chappelle?

• 4:29Jordi Hays?

  I think what we need to do is feed your lines back into the model and ask it to judge your delivery because it really might come down to the delivery.

• 4:38John Coogan?

  Maybe I botched it.

• 4:39Jordi Hays?

  You're setting it up to fail. You don't want to believe that the model can be as funny as you are. But anyways, we're not, we're not, we don't have AGI yet.

• 4:49John Coogan?

  We're not out of a job yet, so stay tuned. But I mean, realistically, that's not why, like, they're not even trying to make these models that funny. It is an eval. I think it's a good eval. I think that they should be able to do that at some point. And it, and, and the humor eval is a way of asking, you know, the model, like, can you do something that you haven't been trained on, right?

• 5:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 5:07John Coogan?

  The, the move 37 of, of writing is a joke, a novel joke in my mind.

• 5:12Jordi Hays?

  The real benchmark is a true knee slapper.

• 5:14John Coogan?

  I think so, I think so. But anyway, we got a much more serious analysis from Andre Karpathy. He says, GPT 4.5 and an interactive comparison. Today marks the release of GPT 4.5 by OpenAI. I've been looking forward to this for two years, ever since GPT 4 was released, because this release offers a qualitative measurement of the slope of improvement you get out of scaling pre-training compute. This is something we've talked about.

• 5:40Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 5:40John Coogan?

  I'm super scale-pilled. Scaling is real, but the question is, if you scale the model up 10x, do you get a 10x improvement? Do you get a 1x, a 2x improvement?

• 5:50Jordi Hays?

  I don't know if we got that.

• 5:51John Coogan?

  Do you get 10%? Do you get 100x? Like, sometimes, you know, and he talks about the evolution here. So each 0.5 in the version is roughly 10x pre-training compute. Now, recall that GPT-1 barely generates coherent text. GPT-2 was a confused toy. GPT 2.5 was skipped straight into GPT-3, which was even more interesting. Then GPT 3.5 crossed the threshold where it was enough to actually ship as a product and sparked OpenAI's ChatGPT moment. And if you remember, When GPT 3.5 was getting really good, there was this Da Vinci model, this GPT 3.5002-Da Vinci, a great name, of course. Fantastic. But that was the moment when people in the developer community were toying with it and being like,

• 6:35John Coogan?

  okay, this thing is actually like passing the Turing test. Like, it sounds like human. And it is remarkable. It's remarkable innovation. And so GPT 4 in turn also felt better, but I'll say that it definitely felt more subtle. I remember being part of a hackathon trying to find concrete prompts where GPT 4 outperformed 3.5. They definitely existed, but clear and but clear and concrete slam dunk examples were difficult to find. It's that everything was just a little bit better, but in a diffuse way. The word choice was a bit more creative. Understanding of nuance in the prompt was improved. Analogies made a bit more sense. The model was a little bit funnier. World knowledge and understanding was improved at the edges of rare domains. Hallucinations were a bit less frequent.

• 7:20John Coogan?

  The vibes were just a bit better. It felt like the water that rises all boats, where everything gets slightly improved by 20%. So it is with that expectation that I went into testing GPT 4.5, which I had access to for a few days and which saw 10x more pre-training compute than GPT 4. And I feel like, once again, I'm in the same hackathon two years ago. Everything is a little bit better and it's awesome, but also not exactly in ways that are trivial to point to. Still, it is incredibly interesting and exciting as another qualitative measurement of a certain slope of capability that comes for free just from pre-training a bigger model. Keep in mind that GPT 4.5 was only trained with pre-training supervised fine tuning at RLHF. So this is not yet a reasoning model.

• 8:03John Coogan?

  Therefore, this model release does not push forward model capability in cases where reasoning is critical, like math and code. In these cases, training with RL reinforcement learning and gaining thinking is incredibly important and works better, even if it is on top of an older base model, GPT 4-ish capability or so. The state of the art here remains the full O1. Presumably, OpenAI will now be looking to further train with reinforcement learning on top of GPT 4.5 model to allow it to think and push model capability in these domains. However, we do. We do actually expect to see an improvement in tasks that are not reasoning heavy. And I would say those tasks are more EQ as opposed to IQ. So it's more, it's more just better to chat with and actually have a conversation with.

• 8:48John Coogan?

  Related and bottlenecked by world knowledge, creativity, analogy making, general understanding, humor, et cetera.

• 8:55Jordi Hays?

  Definitely bottlenecked by humor.

• 8:57John Coogan?

  Yes. So these are the tasks that I was most interested during my vibe checks. So below, I thought it'd be fun to highlight five funny slash amusing prompts to test these capabilities and organize them into an interactive LM arena light. Right here on X, using a combination of images and polls in a thread. Sadly, X does not allow you to include both an image and a poll in a single post. So I have to alternate posts that give the image and then so basically he put, he left it up for eight hours. This got a million views, lots of people voted and he broke down the results. And interestingly, he says, okay, so I didn't super expect the results of the GPT four versus GPT four point five poll from earlier today.

• 9:39John Coogan?

  But GPT four point five outperformed GPT four on only one of the five questions.

• 9:45Jordi Hays?

  Wild.

• 9:46John Coogan?

  People prefer GPT four in four out of five questions awkward. And it's always odd. I mean, the splits are not huge. Fifty six percent of people prefer GPT four point five in one question. The margins were 10, 20%. It wasn't like, it wasn't like a hundred percent, 90% of people thought it was one way or another.

• 10:04Jordi Hays?

  Still, to

• 10:05John Coogan?

  60, 40.

• 10:06Jordi Hays?

  For every one person that prefers, you know, GPT four or five in question three, two people prefer GPT four. That is pretty significant.

• 10:16John Coogan?

  Yeah. And he says, to be honest, I found this a bit surprising as I personally found GPT four point five responses to be better in all cases. But maybe I'm just a high taste tester. I think that's probably true because you built this, Andre, and you're like, one of the greatest programmers of all time. And so you probably have high IQ.

• 10:35Jordi Hays?

  Refined taste.

• 10:36John Coogan?

  And, uh, yeah. But the thing to look for is that GPT four more often says stuff.

• 10:42Jordi Hays?

  Has a refined taste in another kind of model.

• 10:45John Coogan?

  The thing to look for is that GPT-4 more often says stuff that on the face of it looks fine and type checks as making sense. But if you really think about it longer or more carefully, you will often more, you will more often catch it saying things that are a bit of an odd thing to say, or a little too formulaic, a little too basic, a little too cringey, or a little too tropey. Slightly reassuring, a number of people noted similar surprise in the replies. I noticed the few I noticed as an example. For the roast, 4.5 is punchier. For the story, 4.5 narrative jumped in, had dialogue and hinted at a unique storyline. B was a little bit more schematic. For the poem,

• 11:28John Coogan?

  4.5 is obviously way better. The rhyme scheme and meter of B are so unsophisticated. A has to be 4.5. The voters have poor taste. I like that. So yeah, either high taste testers are noticing the new and unique structure, but the low taste ones are overwhelming the poll.

• 11:46John Coogan?

  All you plebs don't, yeah, you normies lobbies don't can't, if you can't tell the, honestly, if you can't tell the difference, if you can't tell the difference between 4.5 and four, like, I don't even know if you should be allowed to be a member of society.

• 11:59Jordi Hays?

  It's interesting, you have to imagine OpenAI is trying to continuously dominate the narrative, right? It's sort of, they're sort of ahead on revenue, but very, you know, well beyond.

• 12:13John Coogan?

  But it's like a knockout drag out fight in terms of attention and what's, what's the hottest, what's on the frontier. Yeah.

• 12:19Jordi Hays?

  They had Grok last week, or was it over the, it was Friday?

• 12:23John Coogan?

  It started last week, but then the app rolled out, the voice mode rolled out, the reasoning.

• 12:28Jordi Hays?

  The new Claude model.

• 12:29John Coogan?

  Claude 3.7.

• 12:29Jordi Hays?

  And OpenAI, like, there's some value in being the last model to drop, right?

• 12:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Jordi Hays?

  And just terms of, you know, sucking the air out of the room.

• 12:38John Coogan?

  And I believe that this, that this model will be the top of the stack in benchmarks. And, and OpenAI has always done this cadence where they come out with the best, and then a couple of months later, there's a whole flood of everyone else catching up. And all of a sudden, they're beating them by like a few percentage. And then OpenAI comes back and is back on top. And so if you average out like, Like OpenAI is not always on the top of the rankings on every single benchmark, but they probably have the most number of days on top because they're on top like, you know, for about half the year.

• 13:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 13:14John Coogan?

  And then towards the back half of the year, everyone else is kind of chipping away at their leads and different benchmarks and stuff. But, uh, but it's fun. So he closes out and says, so we'll wait for the larger.

• 13:24Jordi Hays?

  There's also this feeling, it's hard to know if it's accurate, but there's a general feeling that I have, and I'm sure others do, that, that, that the other, uh, foundation model companies are, are launching stuff, uh, as fast as they possibly can. And, and OpenAI is maybe sort of timing things more in that, who knows, you know?

• 13:44John Coogan?

  I kind of disagree with that. I mean, I think that, uh, I mean, the narrative is like Anthropic has some insane voice model that they haven't released for safety reasons. And I think if anything, all the Grok push and stuff, that's really pushing the cadence at OpenAI.

• 13:58Jordi Hays?

  For sure, for sure. I'm not, I'm not saying they're not feeling the pressure. I'm just saying they seem to be, they seem to be, uh, keep, you know, you can imagine if they wanted to launch GPT-5, you know, could, do they feel the urgent, they, they felt clearly an urgency to come out with four or five.

• 14:18John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 14:19Jordi Hays?

  Maybe they don't, and they're feeling the pressure to get five out, but there's not, they're sort of like trying to stay just perpetually slightly ahead.

• 14:27John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 14:28Jordi Hays?

  And, um, focusing on quality, whereas Grok was just, we have massive amount of compute. We're just going to brute force, spend, launch as fast as possible, iterate. Grok was clearly not actually ready for production.

• 14:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:43Jordi Hays?

  It didn't have the reinforcement learning that made it so you would just get these obscene answers that never should have been live, right? It clearly was more of even. It was almost like a beta version of the product. In many ways, it was responding to stuff that was more of an alpha level product where that stuff should have been caught.

• 15:02John Coogan?

  It's so funny. The nonprofit board at OpenAI was upset with Sam for launching ChatGPT. The very first version, and they were like, he's moving too fast. He's too dangerous. Can you imagine the nonprofit board watching Elon launch Grok 3? And they're just like, no.

• 15:16Jordi Hays?

  No reinforcement learning.

• 15:17John Coogan?

  No reinforcement learning. It's like giving you gas, like how to make a bomb stuff. It's generating intellectual property that's completely infringing, like it has sexy mode. And they're just like, what? Like, actually, like Sam would be much better.

• 15:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, on second thought.

• 15:32John Coogan?

  Bring Sam back. Yeah. Actually, we should have bagged Sam and kept Elon out of the race.

• 15:36Jordi Hays?

  Turns out our biggest nonprofit backer was the most degenerate.

• 15:39John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's hilarious.

• 15:41Jordi Hays?

  The least safety pill is just accelerate, accelerate, accelerate.

• 15:45John Coogan?

  Totally, totally.

• 15:45Jordi Hays?

  The entire time.

• 15:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:47Jordi Hays?

  But yeah, to Elon's credit, he doesn't, he, he, you know, makes the claim that, that Sam is disingenuous and, and snaky or whatever. He's not saying that Sam is reckless.

• 15:59John Coogan?

  Exactly. It's actually a very different critique. Yeah. And I, and I think, I think it's good. Like, I think that this shows that, you know, just scaling up, you know,

• 16:10John Coogan?

  like, there was definitely a drumbeat from the AI Doomer community that, that GPT 4.5, GPT 5, you scale up the pre-training by, by 10x. They were so scalepilled that they said, when you scale up by 10x, you're going to get a 10x more dangerous model. You're going to get 10x more risk. And that does not feel like what's going on right now at all. It feels like, yeah, these things are still like friendly and nice and they make mistakes and they're just simulating humans and humans are default, like, kind of good, but also sometimes midwits. And sometimes they, you know, come up with good stuff and, you know, it's all about how you implement them. And if somebody uses one of these models and creates a wrapper that does something bad, then yeah, you're going to get a bad outcome.

• 16:55John Coogan?

  But the model itself is not going to, you know, break out and have a mind of its own and destroy everything. So Andre finishes out by saying, one really bad mistake that bugs me is in the GPT four point four versus four point five conversation, the one generated by four point five, four point five asks, still buffering your responses like it's dial up internet. This is really bad because it clearly borrows tropes from early days computing. Interesting. Anyway, uh, let's go to some of the other takes. Michael McNano is, is

• 17:27Jordi Hays?

  This comment is interesting.

• 17:29John Coogan?

  You think this is about it?

• 17:30Jordi Hays?

  No, the, uh, from Maine.

• 17:32John Coogan?

  Oh, sure.

• 17:32Jordi Hays?

  Reaction there. I don't know if we have the answer, but it says, is it possible the four O update last month was already a distillation of four point five? I think the results would be less concerning if so.

• 17:41John Coogan?

  Huh. Oh, yeah. Because maybe, maybe we got some of that already baked in.

• 17:45Jordi Hays?

  And that's why it's such a small, you know, difference.

• 17:48John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard to tell because like, i- if you're just trying to stay ahead of the news.

• 17:52Jordi Hays?

  People right now, people right now are, are almost comforted in the fact that you're getting chapters of an L L M, right? Sort of like version one, two, et cetera. And they all have different naming schemes.

• 18:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:02Jordi Hays?

  But over time, you can imagine they're just perpetually updating.

• 18:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:06Jordi Hays?

  But that's uncomfortable to be.

• 18:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:09Jordi Hays?

  You know, humans get smarter, dumber over time, right? Depending on their environment and their view, viewpoint of the world and knowledge and all that stuff. But it's not necessarily perpetually updating throughout even a day where you wake up and your, your employee in the morning is brilliant. And then they're slightly, you know, dumber later in the day, nerfed.

• 18:30John Coogan?

  I mean, the, the, the vibes around the cadence going from chat G P T, which launched on three point five to G P T four. Everyone saw chat G P T and three point five and we were like, we crossed the Turing test. A I is here. This is going to be massively disruptive. Like there's going to be no more marketing jobs because it can just write copy. There's going to be mass unemployment. Like people, e- even, even beyond like the doomers who are saying this is going to kill us. A lot of people were like, this is going to fundamentally change the world very rapidly because it's happening at internet scale. It's not, it's not an atoms company. It's a bits company. And so this can be rolled out into every single company and layoffs can happen now. Right? And so people were, people were worried and then. Three months later, it was like, oh, we did, we did, we went from three to four,

• 19:15John Coogan?

  which feels like a 25%, 33% increase. It just felt like, oh, okay, if we're continuing at this pace, like, the acceleration is real. And, and, but then, over the last two years, we've just been incrementing on fours, four, four one, four five, four oh.

• 19:29Jordi Hays?

  People were starting to call that out, but Sam, if you're out there in the markets trying to raise 40 on 350,

• 19:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:36Jordi Hays?

  350 billion, or whatever the price is with the moss around, you want there to be this sense of, hey, there's this sort of impending superintelligence and, you know, every, if you're needing to raise that kind of capital, you need superintelligence to perpetually be right around the corner. Even, even Elon was posting, I think, earlier this week, we are on the, it's the eve of superintelligence.

• 20:01John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 20:01Jordi Hays?

  You know, whatever, everybody sort of, um,

• 20:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:04Jordi Hays?

  If, if the models were to stagnate completely,

• 20:08John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 20:09Jordi Hays?

  There, there would be a massive pullback in, in sort of new investment, right? Because you see the difference between four and four or five. That's not going to get the incremental,

• 20:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:19Jordi Hays?

  Whatever, $20 billion of investment.

• 20:22John Coogan?

  It's such an interesting dance, because if you go too hard, and you say, "Superintelligence is right around the corner", well, then, the regulator's going to come out, people are going to be protesting in the streets.

• 20:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 20:35John Coogan?

  The doomers are going to have a bigger argument, saying, "Look, you can just look at what Sam is saying. He's going to say it's the most powerful god in a box, like, we have to control this, we have to regulate it." But if you don't say, "Hey, superintelligence is coming",

• 20:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 20:47John Coogan?

  Well, then, why should we invest a trillion dollars in the capex? Like, we, we, we, in order to make these types of investments, it's got to be the real deal. And so, finding that balance is really, really tricky, in my opinion.

• 20:57Jordi Hays?

  I think Satya has the right balance,

• 20:59John Coogan?

  I agree.

• 20:59Jordi Hays?

  Which is that AI, in its current state, and, and for the near future, is this sort of, almost like a co-pilot, it's a thought partner.

• 21:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:08Jordi Hays?

  It's not, uh, it doesn't yet have, you know, total agency, right? It's not actually replacing an employee, but it's, it's being a, a work sort of partner for you.

• 21:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:19Jordi Hays?

  And that still justifies a lot of capex, but I don't think it justifies an incremental $30 billion investment in OpenAI at the moment in time.

• 21:28John Coogan?

  Interesting. I think people massively underestimate.

• 21:33John Coogan?

  How much work there is to be done.

• 21:34Jordi Hays?

  One point of view, I forget who was talking about this earlier this week is that there's so much value to be created and captured from the current technology set.

• 21:45John Coogan?

  I agree.

• 21:46Jordi Hays?

  It would take a, even if we had, even if all model development paused.

• 21:50John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 21:50Jordi Hays?

  And we had a 10 year shot.

• 21:51John Coogan?

  And we just went to implement.

• 21:52Jordi Hays?

  To implement the technology, we could still, there would still be numerous, numerous, you know.

• 21:58John Coogan?

  And that's what happened with the dot com boom. Like the internet rolled out. Dial up was pretty terrible, pretty limited, but even in like, I don't know, 2000, what? 2004, 2005, people were starting to get high speed internet DSL.

• 22:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 22:13John Coogan?

  Cable stuff that you were, where you could play video games online, you could stream videos. And then there was a question about like, okay, well, what if your internet gets 10 times faster? Well, like you're not going to watch 10 movies at the same time. Like, and yes, you could stream 8K video instead of 1080p, but most people just are fine with 1080p.

• 22:33Jordi Hays?

  Still entertaining and you know.

• 22:34John Coogan?

  Exactly. And so, and so like, we accelerated the speed and can, and number of connections to the internet. And then it took us 20 years to actually reap that benefit, even though the tech kept getting better. And the internet has gotten faster and now you can download an 8K video very quickly. If you have the right line, but most people are just like, yeah, I just need, you know, a couple gig download and I'm fine.

• 22:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 22:57John Coogan?

  It is interesting. Well, let's move on to some reactions. We got Michael McNano. He says, "Technology is not a moat, never has been. There are so many examples of incumbents copying startups' technologies and leveraging their distribution to crush competition. And AI coding models are quickly making technology even less defensible with coding models like Claude, assistants like Cursor and no-code tools like Lovable and Bolt. It's becoming stupidly easy to copy existing products and apps with virtually no effort. Turns out the stuff that actually matters is what always mattered. Strong products, real network effects, ruthless distribution and brands people actually care about. The winners will double down on those things while everyone else wonders why their perfect tech keeps getting cloned into irrelevance."

• 23:42Jordi Hays?

  So the most, most relevant sort of point related to all of this is that, you know, we've talked about this on the show before, this idea of easy come, easy go.

• 23:54John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 23:54Jordi Hays?

  And so the same, the same, you know, the, the, the, the.

• 24:00Jordi Hays?

  Issue with Cursor is if you can go to $100 million building a product that was an open, you know, sort of you open source, they, it was like VS Code, right?

• 24:09John Coogan?

  VS Code fork.

• 24:10Jordi Hays?

  They forked it, get to $100 million in revenue, lovable and Bolt come out, you know, lovable goes from zero to 17 million in three months with a small team. But the same technology that enables them to do that also enables other people to come and compete away their market, right? So Windsurf AI, which is a cursor competitor, they have gotten to a $40 million run rate in a very short amount of time. And so historically, if you look at these businesses that have this sort of explosive growth, sometimes there's sort of specific market dynamics that allowed that to happen or allowed a specific team to do that or relationships that enabled it. But oftentimes, if a pure play software company explodes in growth

• 24:51John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 24:51Jordi Hays?

  And there's no network effects, which, which Michael references here, or sort of durable distribution advantage, right? That, that, that value creation can erode very quickly.

• 25:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Jordi Hays?

  And so what I think we're all interested to see how this plays out is all these companies that have this explosive revenue growth. One, it's great because when people say, oh, there's this big bubble, you can point and say, well,

• 25:15John Coogan?

  Real value is being corrected, created.

• 25:16Jordi Hays?

  But, but real customers are handing over dollars to pay for these products. And, uh, you know, Cursor would have gone public, you know, a year ago if it was 2021, right?

• 25:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:28Jordi Hays?

  But what I think we're all waiting to see play out is, uh, does this revenue, you know, ultimately get competed away by other teams that, you know, there's teams that will use Cursor to compete with Cursor, right? Which is, uh, you know, so we'll see. Uh, I think we're generally, you know, bullish on these companies in the, in the short medium term, but unclear how they sort of maintain, uh, and, and continue to create value when people just say, You know, there will be a version of Cursor that allows somebody to vibe code a free version of Cursor, right?

• 26:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Jordi Hays?

  How far, like, I'm actually surprised we haven't seen somebody say, "I use Cursor to rebuild Cursor," and...

• 26:08John Coogan?

  That would definitely go viral. We've seen some people do additional forks and there's been some pushback.

• 26:14Jordi Hays?

  There was that YCT.

• 26:15John Coogan?

  Yeah. And so, yeah, there has been pushback. I wonder, are you a bull or bear on DocuSign? DocuSign's like the quintessential, you should be able to rebuild that with Cursor, right? It's just forms and filings. But maybe those 10, 20, 100,000 employees they have are just the best sales guys. They're embedded in every organization. They're calling you on your birthday. They're celebrating you.

• 26:41Jordi Hays?

  They're not like Ben. They tell you their birthday that morning. They wake up and say, "Hey, it's your favorite sales rep."

• 26:48John Coogan?

  Yeah, you clone DocuSign for, you know, $5 in Cursor credits or whatever. You have Devin on the case for the weekend and you got yourself a DocuSign clone. But how are you distributing it? You need 10,000 sales guys.

• 27:01Jordi Hays?

  Maybe, maybe. You know, I just, I don't think we know. I want, you know, the bigger threat to DocuSign is again, so Google Workspace, I think, just rolled out a Docs, document signing product. We already pay for Google Workspace. It's one click away. It's not going to be as good, but for sure, Google's like calendar booking link throttled the growth of Calendly and other things like that. And so, I think the bigger threat to some of these sort of commodity products. The thing is, is, I mean, Doc, document signing has the viral sort of effect where...

• 27:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause you sign up and then you create everything.

• 27:38Jordi Hays?

  You sign up, but that also enables new...

• 27:39John Coogan?

  Distribution's baked into the product.

• 27:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, distribution's baked in.

• 27:42John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 27:43Jordi Hays?

  But, I mean, we've said this maybe five times on the show before. How has DocuSign not said, "Hey, our product's actually pretty simple. We should be able to maintain it with a team of 100 engineers. We actually don't need 1,000.

• 27:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Jordi Hays?

  Let's sort of give back, let's free these people to go work on other, more interesting products."

• 28:01John Coogan?

  Set them free.

• 28:02Jordi Hays?

  Set them free.

• 28:03John Coogan?

  Instead of slaving way in the DocuSign minds.

• 28:05Jordi Hays?

  In the minds, yeah. And just let them go work on more interesting things and then, you know, give that, give that cash back to shareholders who are invested in new products. It just seems like a very uninspiring company, but, but we'll see.

• 28:19John Coogan?

  Yeah. Anyway, Scott Wu, CEO of Cognition chimed in with his take on GPT 4.5. I thought this is an interesting data point because he's obviously using these models very deeply. He says GPT 4.5 has been awesome to work with. Of course, they build this into Devon. You can run Devon on a number of different LLMs. And he says, our agentic coding benchmarks, on our agentic coding benchmark, it already shows massive improvements over 01 and 40. Excited to see the model's continued trajectory on code. One interesting data point, although GPT 4.5 and Claude 3.7

• 28:59John Coogan?

  Sonnet score similarly on our overall benchmark, we find that GPT 4.5 spikes more heavily on tasks involving architecture and cross-system interactions, whereas Claude 3.7 Sonnet spikes more on raw coding and code editing. As AI takes on increasingly complex tasks, we believe that multimodal agents, multimodal agents that incorporate each model's unique strengths will perform best. Just like in your brain, you have different sections of your brain to do different tasks. On a team, you have that developer who's really good at architecture, and you have that other guy who's just a beast at writing code all night long. And so

• 29:41Jordi Hays?

  I might be off here, but with Devon and Cognition's position where as the underlying models get dramatically better, their product gets better and more valuable, that's a great position to be in. Given the complexity of building out the sort of team-like product, you know, like individual contributor-esque product that's integrated into a team, will Cognition be better positioned than a cursor where, you know, as, how long until you can get Devon to build a version of?

• 30:14Jordi Hays?

  Cursor and just say, hey, fork.

• 30:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:16Jordi Hays?

  You know, we might be 10 years away from that, but.

• 30:19John Coogan?

  It's not even that. I mean, like the mental model I have for cursor versus Devon is like completely separate things. One is like this.

• 30:27Jordi Hays?

  No, totally. I'm just saying.

• 30:28John Coogan?

  And with Devon, I almost see it as like, you could see them like a McKinsey almost where it's like, there's a large company. And they're like, hey, we have this app and it runs on iOS and we need to get it to run on Android. And so you just need to take that code and transfer it and it's just going to be a lot of work and it's got to be done perfectly. And so we just want you, we're going to give you $10 million to do it because it would cost 50 million to do it with, you know, some human outsourcing team and cognition just goes and cranks and like gets it done. And then eventually you're doing that all over your organization and it's much more for like these, these like corporate projects than like, you know.

• 31:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, or backlogs, et cetera.

• 31:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've seen a lot of case studies like that, but it's very, it's very different. And then also, yeah, it's, it's very, it's very like, it's a B to B product.

• 31:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 31:19John Coogan?

  They are in open access. You can just go install it, but it is expensive and it's a very different sales motion, I think.

• 31:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 31:26John Coogan?

  Anyway, let's go to chubby hilarious name with the most serious post talking about OpenAI Mark Chen, who I actually got dinner with a couple of months ago. Great guy. Mark Chen says, we found a new paradigm through reasoning, which we're also scaling. That's right. Because GPT 4.5 was clearly proven that pre-training has definitely reached a wall. GPT 5 must be a banger. Last chance says chubby. And so a lot of people throwing a little bit of a little question on, you know, hey, everyone is going to be shifting to, oh, no, no, no, we don't, we don't focus on just bigger, bigger models. We focus on reasoning because like that's the next paradigm.

• 32:11John Coogan?

  But I think that's fine. I don't care where you're optimizing your AI system.

• 32:17John Coogan?

  I don't care if it's all the gains are in pre-training, all the gains are in post-training, all the gains are in RLHF. When RLHF came out, people were like, oh, so like now like to scale and improve a model, you just need to have a bunch of people like writing answers like this is an AI. And it's like, I don't care. I just want

• 32:35Jordi Hays?

  Just give me

• 32:35John Coogan?

  I just want Good results.

• 32:37Jordi Hays?

  Make me laugh.

• 32:38John Coogan?

  Make me laugh.

• 32:39Jordi Hays?

  John just wants to laugh.

• 32:39John Coogan?

  But also, also do the research reports and make them great, you know, and, and, and, and, you know, throw, scale all of these things. And I think that there's probably going to be these cycles of memes online where people are like, oh, it like, scale doesn't matter at all. It's all about reasoning. Oh, RLHF doesn't matter. It's all about post-training or pre-training or, you know, fine tuning or a custom stuff.

• 33:00Jordi Hays?

  I do, I do think it's fair for people like Chubby to feel like they have the right to try to hold OpenAI and these other model companies who have made these sort of massive audacious claims.

• 33:13John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 33:13Jordi Hays?

  And they've put out a lot of communications on, on this topic to try to say, yeah, last, last chance, you know, GPT five's gotta be a banger. They're basically holding.

• 33:25John Coogan?

  But it's also Funny to be in a non and be like, like, hey, $300 billion company, last chance.

• 33:30Jordi Hays?

  Last chance. No, no.

• 33:32John Coogan?

  How many, who are you to decide whether or not this happens?

• 33:36Jordi Hays?

  But yeah, there, there's this balance between the, the, our, it's, it's more so,

• 33:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Jordi Hays?

  Chubby is probably a customer of OpenAI.

• 33:44John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 33:44Jordi Hays?

  They're allowed to have strong opinions.

• 33:46John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 33:46Jordi Hays?

  If their market is something too.

• 33:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:49Jordi Hays?

  But at the same time, OpenAI is squarely within their right to try to massage the narrative and say, well, actually this is the thing that's more important.

• 33:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:57Jordi Hays?

  So I think both, both sides have, have clear

• 34:00John Coogan?

  Well, let's go to another hater. Do you know Gary Marcus?

• 34:02Jordi Hays?

  I do not.

• 34:03John Coogan?

  Okay, Gary Marcus is a fascinating figure in AI. He wrote a piece called Deep Learning is Hitting a Wall. He, he, he was at, he sold an AI company to Uber, I believe. And his whole thing is, what is it? Symbolic, symbol manipulation. So he believes that like, you cannot just throw a big pile of data at a basic algorithm, like the GPT three algorithm, and then just do predict next word, predict next word, predict next word, and then get God, or get the genius human. He maintains that like humans represent information in their brains in different ways than that. It's not just predict the next word every two seconds. And so

• 34:44Jordi Hays?

  We're special and unique snowflakes.

• 34:46John Coogan?

  He's, he's somewhat right because there are clearly like the reasoning and, and being able to search the web and use Python and all these different tools. We're building out the machine brain in multiple different sectors. But he's also been like massively wrong for a long time because he was saying like deep learning will never scale. And it's like, I'm talking to

• 35:06Jordi Hays?

  He's the Michael Berry of models.

• 35:08John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly. And so

• 35:09Jordi Hays?

  But you only got it, you know, if he's right, right now, he's gonna be pretty vindicated.

• 35:12John Coogan?

  A lot of people have been like, this guy is a joke. Like, why is he be, why is he testifying in front of Congress? At the same time, you know, he, I think he does have a PhD. He is like, he's like a, a, a serious researcher. He's just taken a very contrarian stance, but so has Noam Chomsky. And Noam Chomsky was a linguist at MIT and, and had

• 35:32Jordi Hays?

  Papa Chom?

• 35:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, and had a lot of, a lot of theories on the way language is constructed and, and saw and argued that you could not rep, like you could not represent a human through like a sloppy algorithm. There needed to be some sort of more fundamental truth. And so, uh, symbol manipulation basically says like, you know, we need to have, uh, you know, a concept baked into the model of like what a table is, how it interacts with a chair, all these different things. And so, uh, it's been, it's been controversial because there haven't been as many gains in the symbol, symbol manipulation world. But Gary's been, uh, you know, happily taking a, a victory lap, I guess, over, uh, GPT 4.5, not just purely proving that pre-training scale is all you need. But let's find out.

• 36:18John Coogan?

  So chubby again says, judging by the mood, GPT 4.5 is the first big failure for OpenAI. Too expensive, too little improvement. And often inferior to GPT four oh, even in comparison in creative answers in community tests like what Andre Karpathy posted. And it's interesting because too expensive, don't care at all. They're going to distill this model and get it a thousand times cheaper in two seconds. Too little improvement. That is interesting. But again, you have to run the the the capex to profit calculation. And the GPT for training run, I think, was like under a hundred million dollars or something, which is still like a lot of money at the time. But a hundred million dollars and they're making billions. And so you if you train a hundred million dollar run and then you generate billions a year forever, potentially, if you can

• 37:03Jordi Hays?

  be sticky. Not necessarily super high margin.

• 37:06John Coogan?

  Not yet, but once you bake it down onto silicon, onto a chip or something like

• 37:10Jordi Hays?

  I'm just

• 37:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, like, like, true, like, they're not profitable right now. But just the idea of any of these AI companies throwing a billion at or 10 billion, when you think about how much usage there's going to be, it's not as crazy as you think. And so the question isn't

• 37:28Jordi Hays?

  Especially when you consider there's models that no one uses that have raised a hundred million dollars and have spent most of it and with nothing to show for it.

• 37:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, and I mean, you

• 37:36Jordi Hays?

  OpenAI looks like they're allocating fairly efficiently.

• 37:40John Coogan?

  And you could say the same thing about like amazon.com. They built out huge data centers 10 times as they they 10x their capex like 10 times, right? Did the experience of amazon.com get that much better? No. But they printed money the whole time because they have a great product on top of it. And so like, you don't necessarily need a 10x improvement in the core product. If the business is working and it's generating cash, you can underwrite those capex expenses all day. And and that's what I think a lot of people that's why a lot of people are jumping into this because Elon is saying, look, I'm going to spend billions of dollars on Grok and XAI, but then I'm going to vend that into Tesla. I was thinking about this, like, having a deeply integrated Grok and XAI integration

• 38:23John Coogan?

  in a Tesla is going to be amazing. There's so many times when I'm when I'm driving into the office and I'm talking to chat GPT. About, hey, here are some topics that I want to talk about. Can you do a deep research on this one? Just using the voice mode. And if that was integrated into a Tesla, so it's basically self-driving itself, and you're just having a conversation with Grok. Okay, today I gotta, I gotta talk to Jordi about the show. I gotta pay this bill. I gotta schedule a meeting and it's just catalog. Yeah, yeah, just cataloging all of this. Oh, okay. You did legs yesterday. Hit chest. Here's what you should do.

• 38:53Jordi Hays?

  I'm constantly in the car. I'm constantly in the car. You know, I spend enough time on the road, you know, these days because of all the traffic that if I get in the car for 90 minutes and I'm driving, I'm gonna have 20 thoughts that I want to be able to execute on in that moment, but I end up having to like wait until I'm at a stoplight, write it down, keep going. And then I've built this huge backlog of tasks where if you can have this sort of omnipresent AI that says, hey, Grok, can you, you know, call, you know, the cable company? I want to increase my, I want to get fiber. I have like, you know, I want to upgrade my plan. Exactly. Like, that's an item you're checking off the to-do list.

• 39:33John Coogan?

  Exactly. And I'm sure your car, all your cars have some sort of voice recognition, but it's awful, right? It's like, call John. And it's like, oh, did you want me to, you know, call you a tow truck? Or whatever. Like, always gets it wrong. No one ever uses it. Imagine if it's, if it's, you know, truly frontier best in class. And so the question is not, does spending a billion dollars on CapEx to train a frontier model get you something that's a thousand times better than the competition? It's just, does it get you a valuable asset that then you can vend in and sell all over the place? And so can Elon sell Grok to X premium members and make the money back there? Can he sell it into Tesla? Can he sell it into other things? Like, can he hook it up to Neuralink? Like, can he make money from the money he spent? That's the only thing that matters at the end of the day. This is capitalism, right? Anyway, so, you know, people are pouring cold water all over this.

• 40:18Jordi Hays?

  This is a tough timing, too. So, yeah, they're pouring cold water on it, calling it the first big failure of OpenAI. Meanwhile, poor Sam had his first kid like last week.

• 40:29John Coogan?

  It's rough.

• 40:30Jordi Hays?

  This guy.

• 40:31John Coogan?

  And so Gary Marcus says, "A big surprise only to you and the many other OpenAI fans who refuse to listen to me when I patiently and endlessly explained that this would be exactly what would happen for the rest of us. This was all but inevitable." And so he's taking a victory lap. But it's, but it's odd because it's like, okay, like, go do the thing then, Gary. Like, go, go do your approach. Like, do the symbolic, the symbol manipulation and beat them.

• 40:57Jordi Hays?

  Start a podcast.

• 41:00John Coogan?

  He might, he might. But yeah, I mean, it's easy to be a pessimist and say that approach isn't working. Like the, like, like the, the starship isn't going to work to get us to Mars. I don't care. Build something better that will get us to Mars then. If you think the slingshot, we were talking to Dalian about this, like, if he wants to get there with a space plane, he'll do that. Like,

• 41:20Jordi Hays?

  I don't know. I don't know. I mean, that's an obvious critique of Gary, but at the same time, if you are highly researched on a specific topic, you're an expert on that topic in many ways. But Gary, you could argue he's an exited AI founder who's been talking about this for years.

• 41:39John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 41:40Jordi Hays?

  He's perfectly entitled to have an opinion on the world-changing technology that everybody else, and, and it's fine if he take, I, I think he can take a victory lap.

• 41:50John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 41:51Jordi Hays?

  We're not, we're not, he's not trying to say that I can do it.

• 41:56John Coogan?

  Well, he has been for years. For years, he was saying, he was saying, my approach is better than deep learning.

• 42:02Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so he hasn't.

• 42:03John Coogan?

  That's why, because he's, he hasn't been advancing the ball on his thing. It would be one thing if it was like, they did this, and then simple manipulation, his approach outperforms, and it's like, oh, my God, he was right. Like, we should have, we were going, going down the wrong path. Gary was right. Instead, he's just saying, like, my, their thing sucks, but my thing really sucks.

• 42:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:22John Coogan?

  Which is kind of like my read on it. But I don't know. I mean, still, you know, congrats to him.

• 42:26Jordi Hays?

  He can't take a, he can say, hey,

• 42:28John Coogan?

  As an analyst, he's correct.

• 42:30Jordi Hays?

  I'm, I'm right.

• 42:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Jordi Hays?

  And OpenAI won't respond to this, but if they, they could, or would, or wanted to, they would say, cool, like, let's see your benchmarks.

• 42:40John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 42:41Jordi Hays?

  And he wouldn't, sounds like he wouldn't have a good answer.

• 42:43John Coogan?

  Yeah, well, now he would say, oh, I'm, I'm out of the game. I'm not, I'm, I'm working on policy and stuff. I'm not, I'm not really building, I'm not trying to compete in that, but it is, is a little frustrating. Because, you know, like, the DeepSeek team over there, they're making, they're saying, hey, we have a slightly different approach, and we're getting, we're getting better performance with less investment. I mean, you know, the, the actual investment's debatable, but there were clearly some optimizations there where they, where they got close to the frontier. With obviously less than what it cost to train 4.5. And so I I'm much more I'm much more sympathetic to like a deep seek stand saying like, hey, the the best investment in in this technology in the next wave here is on the optimization

• 43:26John Coogan?

  side, not on the scale side. I I'm receptive to that.

• 43:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 43:30John Coogan?

  But if you're just saying like, this isn't working, but also like my thing is okay.

• 43:34Jordi Hays?

  Ha, I was right, but I also failed.

• 43:39John Coogan?

  Anyway, let's move on. Let's close out with another attempt at humor. Dan Shipper says, GPT 4.5 is actually so effing funny. Be me, be Dan Shipper. Wake up at 5 a.m. Journal for 45 minutes about the dream I had last night. Dream was in second person, probably inspired by an obscure neuroscience paper I read last Tuesday. Brew coffee using beans handpicked by monks on a remote Guatemalan mountain. Sit down to write today's newsletter accidentally outline four new business ideas. Resip- resist the temptation to launch them all by noon. Meditate, feel mind literally expanding into previously undiscovered cognitive dimensions. Tweet an insight from my meditation session immediately gained 200 new subscribers.

• 44:22John Coogan?

  Open laptop to write an article on mental models. Realize the mental, the ultimate mental model was within me all along. It's only 9 a.m. Why aren't you laughing?

• 44:34Jordi Hays?

  I mean.

• 44:34John Coogan?

  What's wrong? Do you not understand the humor? It did go over your head, Jordy?

• 44:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it flew over my head.

• 44:39John Coogan?

  Because if you're, if you don't, if you can't tell the difference between 4.5 and four, you're you're not really like high IQ.

• 44:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean Claude actually got fed this and laughed.

• 44:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:51Jordi Hays?

  It actually played a laugh track.

• 44:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:53Jordi Hays?

  That was its only response.

• 44:54John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 44:55Jordi Hays?

  So the models are making each other laugh.

• 44:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:57Jordi Hays?

  They're not making us laugh just yet.

• 44:59John Coogan?

  I do think there's something cool about this. I think he had personalization on.

• 45:03Jordi Hays?

  Model is actually sophisticated enough that. It knows we'll laugh harder if it just delivers a terrible, like a terrible joke.

• 45:10John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 45:11Jordi Hays?

  And just botches it.

• 45:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 45:12Jordi Hays?

  And we go, ha, ha.

• 45:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 45:14Jordi Hays?

  You dumb model.

• 45:15John Coogan?

  It's, uh, yeah, it's being sneaky behind the scenes, hiding its power level.

• 45:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 45:19John Coogan?

  Secretly, it could be the best. It could put every comedian out of business.

• 45:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 45:22John Coogan?

  But it knows.

• 45:23Jordi Hays?

  Playing basketball with a kid.

• 45:24John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 45:24Jordi Hays?

  You're not like, you're not.

• 45:25John Coogan?

  Oh, no, I, I, I dropped the ball. I guess you scored.

• 45:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 45:29John Coogan?

  That's what it's doing, clearly.

• 45:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 45:30John Coogan?

  Um, anyway, I'm glad he thought it was funny. Uh, I, uh, what is interesting here is that this was personalized. So he fed it in his, his timeline or some more context around him.

• 45:42Jordi Hays?

  It doesn't.

• 45:43John Coogan?

  And so it, so it clearly made jokes that were highly personalized to, to him. And I think that that is cool. And I think there is something there. And we've talked about this with the Grok stuff. It creates a more unique, uh, interaction, unique product, especially when, uh, I think the most relevant, again, won't be humor. It'll be research where it will know, hey, Jordy, you're, uh, you're an expert in angel investing and ads and entrepreneurship. So I don't need to explain to you what a safe is, but you're not an expert in mining, you know, rare minerals. So I'm going to break down. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to explain to you in granular detail.

• 46:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 46:26John Coogan?

  Okay, lithium ion, where, where does that come from? And I'm going to explain it to you like I'm five and then I'm going to go deeper and I'm going to work with you to understand where your knowledge is and get you up to speed really quickly. I think that's going to be amazing. Um, anyway. Well, one of the companies that I love that's implementing AI better than anybody else is of course Ramp.

• 46:45Jordi Hays?

  Better than anyone.

• 46:46John Coogan?

  Go to ramp.com.

• 46:47Jordi Hays?

  Fact checked and true.

• 46:49John Coogan?

  Easy to use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting and a whole lot more all in one place. And it is, I mean, obviously I'm joking around, but it is true. Ramp is a perfect place to, to implement AI. They, uh, when you take a picture of the receipt, they get scanned, of course, an LLM processes that. And it's gotten so much better. And it's the exact type of organization that you want to be with where they're, I mean, the cognition guys worked there. Like they have, they have an insane team that can go and look at whatever the frontier model is, swap it in, in two seconds. They move very fast. They move very quickly. And so all the product just keeps compounding in a way that's, you know, great.

• 47:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, even from an, you know, from a company that you would potentially join, there are companies out there that are just sort of boilerplate SaaS that maybe have a lot of revenue today like DocuSign, but presumably over time will, will be more like cable where some people keep paying, but you know, they get sort of replaced. These sort of businesses that are more, you know, this is for informational purposes only, obviously, but the businesses that are more in these sort of regulated spaces that require payment rails and banking licenses and stuff like that are super well positioned to implement AI for customers, but you know, not, not in the same way. You, you can't just, you know, use curse, the, the version of cursor in 10 years and generate ramp because banks are going

• 48:10Jordi Hays?

  to say, I'm sorry, you know, we're not, you know, we, we, we work with a smaller number of partners, etc. So.

• 48:16John Coogan?

  Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it's just great. There's obviously a lot of larger companies, more established companies that have been trying to implement AI. McKinsey's printing money. All of the, all of the consultants are going around to every business. Here's how you can use AI. Ramp actually has like an obvious narrative here, which is, you know, receipt classification and iterating over your financials to get you more accurate data more quickly. Anyway, go check it out.

• 48:41Jordi Hays?

  Couple of comments before we jump into the next section. Vishal in the chat says, guys, react to Zelensky versus Trump. I said, too political for us. Vishal looked nasty though. And he says, makes sense, Jordy. We don't need another all in, which is a great point. We're trying to hold the line on politics. People, you know, will ask you to cover politics because they get a lot of attention, but we are a technology and business show. We are firmly.

• 49:07John Coogan?

  I mean, my, my answer on Zelensky versus Trump, I see Trump as the founder of Truth Social more than the president. I mean, that's something he does, politics, but we're interested in him as a,

• 49:18Jordi Hays?

  As Zelensky is more in the mining business, right? I think they're arguing about the mines.

• 49:23John Coogan?

  And so, once we, once we hear Zelensky's business acumen, then we can comment, but in terms of the politics stuff, not really interesting to us. So.

• 49:30Jordi Hays?

  Calder says, watching John get better at transitions is like watching Tiger Woods practices swing. So. Every day.

• 49:39John Coogan?

  Every day.

• 49:39Jordi Hays?

  Eventually, you won't know if it's an ad.

• 49:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's all blended together.

• 49:44Jordi Hays?

  It's gonna be perfectly blended.

• 49:45John Coogan?

  We'll call there, we'll have to have you on the show. And when we have you on the show, we'll have you call in, not via Skype, but via Zoom or FaceTime. Because Skype is out of business. They're shutting it down. Breaking news here on the show.

• 49:59Jordi Hays?

  We're actually breaking this news. It broke earlier elsewhere, but we're breaking it here.

• 50:04John Coogan?

  Breaking it on the show. Sheil Moat says, "End of an era." And says, "Exclusive. Microsoft is finally shutting down Skype in May. It's the end of an era. Skype could have been WhatsApp plus Zoom in one, but it was a terrible Balmer-esque, Balmer-era Microsoft acquisition for $8.5 billion." Historical size.

• 50:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so it was, it was maybe terrible for Microsoft, but it was fantastic for the Skype shareholders.

• 50:34John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 50:35Jordi Hays?

  And so we should celebrate that.

• 50:36John Coogan?

  Yes. And one, so Skype, fascinating story.

• 50:39Jordi Hays?

  They took that illiquid, you know, they got the returns from the illiquid Skype stock.

• 50:43John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 50:43Jordi Hays?

  Rolled it into other illiquid assets that have since, you know, multiplied.

• 50:47John Coogan?

  Hey, you're getting ahead. We got the whole breakdown right here.

• 50:50Jordi Hays?

  Great.

• 50:51John Coogan?

  2003, company founded in Estonia by the founders of Kazaa.

• 50:55Jordi Hays?

  Kazaa.

• 50:56John Coogan?

  Which was a competitor to Napster, if you're familiar. The P2P file sharing service used to pirate music. I was using Kazaa back then. That was fun. Download some Korn tracks or Slim Bizkit albums. It was fantastic. This is like the best era of the internet. The Kazaa money meant that they didn't need to raise.

• 51:13Jordi Hays?

  Truck in 2003.

• 51:14John Coogan?

  Really?

• 51:15Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 51:15John Coogan?

  Wait, what? Are you, are you, are you kidding? Wait, what do you mean you got run over?

• 51:19Jordi Hays?

  This is some lore. I got run over by an off-duty ambulance driver who was driving a pickup truck.

• 51:25John Coogan?

  Is this why you can't bench three plates yet?

• 51:27Jordi Hays?

  Yes, that's exactly why. They, I was actually, I went, you know, got taken in a real ambulance to the hospital. And they said, you know, "Your son's fine, but he's never gonna be able to bench three plates."

• 51:38John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 51:39Jordi Hays?

  And that stuck with me. It put a chip on my shoulder.

• 51:41John Coogan?

  Well, when you do it, you know, we're gonna be celebrating.

• 51:43Jordi Hays?

  I'm gonna prove him wrong. I'm not gonna listen to that doctor back in 2003. I'm gonna, you know, do the impossible.

• 51:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, once you do it, we're gonna saber open a bottle of Dom Perignon and saber open a bottle of protein shake.

• 51:55Jordi Hays?

  Perfect.

• 51:56John Coogan?

  And chug that.

• 51:56Jordi Hays?

  Perfect.

• 51:57John Coogan?

  Uh, so they didn't need to raise VC.

• 51:58Jordi Hays?

  Two thousand and three.

• 51:59John Coogan?

  Two thousand and five, they have fifty-four million users, seven million in revenue.

• 52:03Jordi Hays?

  And I imagine.

• 52:04John Coogan?

  Sixty million in oh five, they're printing.

• 52:06Jordi Hays?

  Just Estonia's got to be a great place to start an illegal peer-to-peer file sharing platform.

• 52:12John Coogan?

  Hmm, very fast internet there. Do you know this story? So Estonia's Eastern Bloc, used to be part of the US.

• 52:19Jordi Hays?

  Is that where a lot of the VPNs are?

• 52:20John Coogan?

  Uh, I don't know if there's that many, but uh, there are some, there are some fantastic entrepreneurs there. So uh, they break away from Russia and they invest very, very heavily in the internet. They get very, very high internet speeds. And so they have tons of kids that get online and learn all sorts of stuff. Very early in my YouTube career, I, I had a research assistant who was an Estonian guy. He was obsessed with Estonia and was always like, we should cover this Estonian story. And I'm like, I don't know if I should do another Estonia thing, but I like the way, I like where your head's at, kid. And, but I did do one on Bolt, uh, and the founder of that company, which is an Uber competitor. And the kid, uh, built this business into billions and billions of dollars, kind of Uber for the rest of the world. And has been fantastically successful.

• 53:05John Coogan?

  And uh, and one of his, I think one of his angel investors was this guy Yan, who was a founder of Skype, who got a bunch of money out of Skype and became a big investor. And that guy also invested in FTX very early on. He's a fascinating character. Uh, so he's been, he's been all over Silicon Valley. And so, uh, in two thousand and five, they get acquired by eBay for two point six billion. eBay claimed it would help buyer seller communication, but that never made sense to Sheil. Uh, and eBay wrote it down by one point seven billion in two, in two thousand and seven. By two thousand and nine, they have four hundred million users, a hundred million DAUs and seven hundred million dollars in revenue.

• 53:43John Coogan?

  And so sixty-five percent of Stripe gets acquired by Silver Lake, A16Z, CPPIB, an index for one point nine billion, valuing the company at two point seven five billion. A16Z wrote a fifty million check, fifty million dollar check out of there. 300 million dollar first fund, people thought they were crazy for investing in a late-stage private equity deal.

• 54:02Jordi Hays?

  It did pretty well.

• 54:03John Coogan?

  That is crazy. And I remember that being on their, on their, I remember that being on their portfolio page, and I didn't realize that they did it post-acquisition, which is very, very rare for, for VC. So in 2011-

• 54:15Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but it's sort of some interesting lore, given that they've turned into more of this sort of multi-stage asset manager that resembles a private equity-

• 54:25John Coogan?

  Started back in 2009. They've been in the game for 16 years in these odd deals. So, you know, if you're out there saying, "Oh, they're completely pivoting their model", maybe not. Maybe they've been, maybe they've cut their teeth on-

• 54:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they didn't return the fund, even though it was a good outcome, but certainly got some of the way there.

• 54:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, they, they invested at one point, at 2.75, and they sold it at 8.5. So, 3X, they probably got 150 mil out on that 50 million dollar check, but that's a, that's a 300 million dollar fund, so they returned half the fund on that deal, which is pretty good. And it was just two years. So, by 2011, there were 600 million users, 170 million DA, MA use, 1 billion in revenue. Ballmer buys it for 8.5.

• 55:07Jordi Hays?

  They probably recycled the investment and just reinvested that, the 3X, and potentially got-

• 55:13John Coogan?

  Exactly. So, A16Z looks really smart with early DPI, and so they're, this is their first fund, and they're saying, "Hey, we, you gave us 300, we already got 150 back, we got a bunch of other bangers in here, let's do the second fund, the third fund, the growth fund, the dynamism fund, all these different things." At Ballmer era, Microsoft innovation slowed, Skype never really made the move from desktop to mobile, Skype had poor UI, technical debt-

• 55:35Jordi Hays?

  That's so crazy.

• 55:36John Coogan?

  And may, it never got much mobile adoption. Meanwhile, Zoom was founded in 2011, and WhatsApp took off. WhatsApp has 2.5 billion dollars and is probably worth at least 10, 100 billion, yeah, that sounds all right. Zoom has 300 million, is worth 25 billion, still blows my mind that Zoom trades lower than it did pre-pandemic, when it had fewer users, it went from 10 million to 300 million. Another interesting tidbit-

• 55:56Jordi Hays?

  Zoom only had 10 million users pre-pandemic?

• 55:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was small, but then it was, but then Google was way, way behind. And there were a bunch of problems that actually Google internally was using Hangouts because they're like, wait, we got to dog food our product. But once they went remote, everyone was like, this is awful. Like it's, it's, it's breaking all the time. We can't get 50 people in there or crashing. So what's the choice? We either fix this problem or we go to Zoom. And there's this story about they put all their best engineers on it. Even like the AI guys came in for a couple of days and we're like, okay, let's, let's figure out what's going on. Let's optimize this, let's go deep seek mode on this.

• 56:31Jordi Hays?

  It is wild. I have zero, you know, I have so many memories using Skype as a kid, playing Starcraft, other video games. Having Skype would be something that I would get home from school. You know, I'd finish soccer practice or something like that. I would turn it on and it would just be on almost until, basically until dinner or sometimes even later, you know, doing, you know, homework, hanging out. This was.

• 56:57John Coogan?

  I used a lot of these IRC.

• 56:59Jordi Hays?

  Were you using Skype when you were?

• 57:01John Coogan?

  Gaming?

• 57:03Jordi Hays?

  No, in your early part of your career?

• 57:05John Coogan?

  A little bit.

• 57:06Jordi Hays?

  Actually, I was trying to make a joke about you being old.

• 57:10John Coogan?

  I mean, yeah, Skype was the thing. Yeah, you would Skype with someone. Definitely in college, Skype was like the default. It was like the best video chatting platform for sure. But the other interesting tidbit is Tony Bates.

• 57:24Jordi Hays?

  Game Boys over Skype?

• 57:26John Coogan?

  It was actually Pong. That was the one.

• 57:29Jordi Hays?

  Nice.

• 57:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, Pong. And, and a lot of telegraphs, you know, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. That was the main thing. If you wanted to raise money.

• 57:37Jordi Hays?

  You'd get on Skype and practice your.

• 57:38John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly. I'm a beast at the Morse code. Yeah, Morse code. And carrier pigeons, obviously.

• 57:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, from time to time.

• 57:49John Coogan?

  A lot of scrolls passing around on horseback. This is kind of the vibe.

• 57:54John Coogan?

  Back when, you know, draft dodging, trying to not go to Vietnam. This is like my, this is where I cut my teeth.

• 57:59Jordi Hays?

  Classic stuff.

• 58:00John Coogan?

  Exactly. Tony Bates, the CEO of Skype at the acquisition by Microsoft, was considered a rising star at Microsoft and was actually one of the top folks considered to be in the running for CEO. Of Microsoft, but was but left once Nadella got the gig. Anyway, fun to look down memory lane. I use Skype a lot in my life. I use Skype regularly until 2018 because it was the industry norm for one of my companies. In 2018, they started requiring Microsoft login and they lost many of the users they had left. And then he did add a correction. Skype 1.0 did raise VC dollars. They raised 18.8 million from DFJ index Mangrove and Bessemer. A year before they got acquired for 2.6 billion. Mangrove was the first investor and got 100x on the deal in two years.

• 58:41John Coogan?

  And so you had a story about like a pen pal on Skype. What was your experience with Skype?

• 58:48Jordi Hays?

  No, I would just use it while playing Starcraft. And I just remember a bunch of my friends after school and get on Skype because I lived in a, I grew up in wine country. And everybody was super spread out. So if you didn't, your parents weren't going to drive you around. You just kind of had to go home after school and get online. So.

• 59:07John Coogan?

  And so if you wanted to get a bunch of your Skype friends together, out in wine country for a long weekend in a nice house, what would you do?

• 59:14Jordi Hays?

  Well, I'd go to wander.com, of course.

• 59:16John Coogan?

  Fantastic. And you'd find your.

• 59:17Jordi Hays?

  Find your happy place.

• 59:20John Coogan?

  Find your happy place.

• 59:22Jordi Hays?

  We've got to know, we've got to do it together.

• 59:24John Coogan?

  Find your happy place. Find your happy place.

• 59:29Jordi Hays?

  Thank you to Tyler for the recommendation. He said, uh, next time you do a wander ad.

• 59:32John Coogan?

  More songs, more jingles, for sure.

• 59:34Jordi Hays?

  Make sure to sing it. So clip that.

• 59:36John Coogan?

  Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel-grade amenities, dreamy beds and top-tier cleaning and 24/7 concierge service.

• 59:43Jordi Hays?

  Let's go.

• 59:44John Coogan?

  It's a vacation home, but better, folks. What's not to like? And we got a post from Kyle Tibbetts over at Wander. He says, international expansion has kicked off at Wander with pins popping up on the map in new places like Quebec, Cabo and Costa Rica. Stay tuned for more. I never leave the United States, but if you do, good luck to you. Book a wander while you're abroad.

• 1:00:04Jordi Hays?

  You are really America-pilled and that.

• 1:00:07John Coogan?

  I'm so America-pilled.

• 1:00:08Jordi Hays?

  You try not to leave at all.

• 1:00:09John Coogan?

  I'm not leaving. You're gonna have to drag me out.

• 1:00:12Jordi Hays?

  I'm not leaving.

• 1:00:13John Coogan?

  I'm not leaving. But fortunately, there are hundreds of wanders in the United States and I'm going to visit all of them.

• 1:00:17Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 1:00:18John Coogan?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna drive to all 50 states.

• 1:00:20Jordi Hays?

  You're making a list, checking it twice.

• 1:00:21John Coogan?

  I'm gonna go to stay in every single wander in America. And then I'm sure I'll see some videos of people in these second tier countries.

• 1:00:29Jordi Hays?

  They added 100 in the last month. So if you were trying to go to every wander and they keep this pace up.

• 1:00:34John Coogan?

  Yeah, three a day.

• 1:00:34Jordi Hays?

  You'd never, you'd have to be doing three a day. You wouldn't even actually get to spend the night in every single one. But you just pop in, you know, remote, unlock it, jump in.

• 1:00:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Jordi Hays?

  And anyways, but the pace is ridiculous. And we got some more news.

• 1:00:48John Coogan?

  We got some more news.

• 1:00:49Jordi Hays?

  Some really breaking news.

• 1:00:51John Coogan?

  This shook the tech industry.

• 1:00:53Jordi Hays?

  We're the first tech and business media company to break this.

• 1:00:55John Coogan?

  I would say more than any of the AI news. This was the biggest story this week, maybe this month. I think we're gonna look back on 2025 and say, this was the year of Sam Sulek getting his IFBB Pro Card. And so Cody Main says, extremely niche tweet for my fellow gym bros. But Sam Sulek earning an IFBB Pro Card in his second ever show is one of the coolest things I've seen in a long time. He's 23 years old. He's got no coach. He documented every step of his journey on YouTube and he's a certified freak. Look at that man. That is the pinnacle of excellence. And we got another post from Zach. He says, Sam Sulek, Sulek is the ultimate example of obsession. He just became an IFBB Pro. He was looking absolutely diced, grainy. He was peeled. It was fantastic.

• 1:01:40John Coogan?

  Winning two, he winning first two bodybuilding shows. He posted daily YouTube videos for two years documenting every single workout. He gained 4 million subscribers. This is what it takes. Apply this mentality to your goals. And I really think we are the Sam Sulek of tech and business podcasting in the sense that we post every single day. And it's silly and you can look at this and say, oh, he's just some bodybuilder. He's just some vlogger, whatever. But there is a lesson in here about the obsession mentality and just doing things daily and improving daily over time. You see it with, why is Jake Paul big? You know, you might not like his content, but he posted, it's every day, bro. He literally posted a blog every single, a vlog every single day, four years.

• 1:02:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's something about a coach, what a coach often provides as much as advice. Advice is free on the internet. You can go get advice anywhere. It's infinitely available. A coach provides accountability. And so Sam, by just sharing every single workout, has the accountability of. Hundreds of thousands or millions of people, right?

• 1:02:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:40Jordi Hays?

  They're gonna say, you didn't push yourself as hard as you could there, right? And they're gonna call him out on it and it's, and it's part of the, part of the program. But, uh, but yeah, I think it's, I think it's.

• 1:02:50John Coogan?

  Beeple with his 3D renders, he posted a new 3D render every single day for something like 10 years.

• 1:02:57Jordi Hays?

  I think Joe Rogan, uh, famous, uh, thought leader.

• 1:03:00John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:00Jordi Hays?

  Had a quote that was something to the effect of, how would you live your life if you, if your life was, you know, a movie, right?

• 1:03:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Jordi Hays?

  And you had, you knew that you had an audience, right? You probably would, wouldn't doom scroll and you would go to bed early.

• 1:03:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:15Jordi Hays?

  Because you know, your main character, your hero, right? You'd get snug, snuggle up in your eight sleep and you'd crash, you'd get that good sleep score.

• 1:03:22John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:03:23Jordi Hays?

  But, uh, but yeah, there's this idea of like, how would you work out in the gym if, if you actually had an audience, right?

• 1:03:29John Coogan?

  Yep, yep.

• 1:03:29Jordi Hays?

  And a lot of people just go through the motions in their life. They don't take it very seriously, but take your life seriously. Sam takes his life seriously. He's 23 IFBB pro. He's completely natural too.

• 1:03:43John Coogan?

  Future, future Terminator. I'm really pushing for that. That's our, uh, that's our 2025, 2026 goal. Please reboot Terminator, cast Sam Sulek.

• 1:03:53Jordi Hays?

  That's great.

• 1:03:53John Coogan?

  The lines will be around the block at every theater in America, truly.

• 1:03:57Jordi Hays?

  It actually would be a blockbuster.

• 1:03:58John Coogan?

  It would be an absolute blockbuster.

• 1:04:00Jordi Hays?

  And it's a perfect movie where you don't need, it's, it's about the ridiculousness of it. You don't need the best actor, right?

• 1:04:06John Coogan?

  No, and that's the thing. If you do the full reboot, the first Terminator, Arnold, still was working on his English and his acting, I'm pretty sure. And so he's the bad guy and he doesn't really say that much. He's actually like the monster. So most of what he's doing is just marching and shooting and stuff. He's not really delivering that many lines. Then by the second one, they like reboot him and he becomes the good Terminator.

• 1:04:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28John Coogan?

  Plays into all the AI stuff. I would totally watch it. The Terminator franchise, really, really cool, but it's gone downhill with all these like kind of shoddy spinoffs. And we're in like, yeah, series seven. Go get, uh, James Cameron back. Can you believe it's a James Cameron movie? That's crazy. Get Sam Sulek, get James Cameron, get in the same room and make a great Terminator reboot. I would absolutely watch that.

• 1:04:52Jordi Hays?

  It's crazy to think that if James Cameron didn't, didn't survive his reading and driving era. Remember he was driving trucks while reading? Very, very sketchy, but we would never have Terminator and we would never maybe.

• 1:05:06John Coogan?

  Titanic, Avatar.

• 1:05:07Jordi Hays?

  We would never have Sam Sulek cast as Terminator.

• 1:05:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, well, if you're thinking about going for your IFBB pro card, you know that sleep is the number one way to increase your testosterone naturally. And yeah, maybe you're competing in the naturals. And if you want to get great sleep, we recommend getting an eight.

• 1:05:25Jordi Hays?

  I would, I would love if someone in our community actually went to be, to be a bodybuilder. We would put the full force of the brotherhood.

• 1:05:34John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:05:35Jordi Hays?

  Behind them and we'd even pay off judges and stuff like that.

• 1:05:39John Coogan?

  Do whatever it takes.

• 1:05:39Jordi Hays?

  Whatever it took.

• 1:05:41John Coogan?

  And so eight sleep, of course, it's nights that fuel your best days. Turn any bed into the ultimate sleeping experience. Go to eightsleep.com slash T B P N to check it out.

• 1:05:51Jordi Hays?

  What's your sleep score?

• 1:05:52John Coogan?

  Ooh, I don't know, it might've been a rough night.

• 1:05:54Jordi Hays?

  I actually had a rough night too.

• 1:05:56John Coogan?

  Eight Sleep, the app.

• 1:05:58Jordi Hays?

  My rough night is your best.

• 1:06:00John Coogan?

  You got me beat a couple of days. Oh, what, what you got? I got a 91.

• 1:06:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you beat me.

• 1:06:05John Coogan?

  Yes, let's go.

• 1:06:06Jordi Hays?

  I got an 86.

• 1:06:07John Coogan?

  Okay, I got 645.

• 1:06:10Jordi Hays?

  I just didn't put, didn't put the time into it.

• 1:06:12John Coogan?

  Quality wasn't great, routine wasn't quite on point, but we're getting better.

• 1:06:16Jordi Hays?

  I had to pick someone up early this morning, earlier than usual.

• 1:06:20John Coogan?

  It's a journey.

• 1:06:21Jordi Hays?

  We'll be talking about soon.

• 1:06:22John Coogan?

  Well, let's go to some launches.

• 1:06:24Jordi Hays?

  By the way, we gotta mention it, we have a link in the, in the YouTube.

• 1:06:28John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:28Jordi Hays?

  And we have a code, just a code, it's T B P N or eightsleep.com slash T B P N. Get a few hundred dollars off your eight sleep.

• 1:06:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, go visit that.

• 1:06:35Jordi Hays?

  Enter the, the challenge and try to, uh, you know, beat us on our sleep scores.

• 1:06:40John Coogan?

  Yep. Fantastic. Well, let's go to some launches. We got Splash Robotics coming out of Y Combinator. They are building unmanned patrol boats to defend our nation's critical infrastructure and secure our borders. They're able to autonomously detect and intercept threats faster than any human operator. I love stuff like this. Uh, you know, all the memes are like, I guess we're doing boats now. I guess we're doing military technology. Uh, and, and I saw someone reacting to this like, did the DOD just take over YC or something? But this is the perfect hack project for a YC team to go build. I'm, I'm so, I'm so happy with these types of projects.

• 1:07:17Jordi Hays?

  Is this, this is a Serrana competitor?

• 1:07:20John Coogan?

  Probably at some scale, but you know, with these YC companies, like who knows, like they're so early that they could wind up finding some little niche here and there. Yeah. It's very unclear that it's like, yeah, this is a real shot across the bow to the billion dollar company that is like working with the DOD. Uh, this could be something that goes into, uh, Coast Guard or, or, or responds to an entirely different program area. Um, it could wind up being something that's more commercial focused. It could be something that gets aquihired or merged into another company. It's just a bunch of people building some cool stuff. And so I'm, I'm here for it.

• 1:07:51Jordi Hays?

  One of my favorite YouTube channels is this guy, H I Sutton, who's a defense analyst. You know this guy?

• 1:07:56John Coogan?

  No, no.

• 1:07:57Jordi Hays?

  It's, he just talks about naval warfare and he makes these like one-shot monologue videos about

• 1:08:03John Coogan?

  Oh, this is great.

• 1:08:04Jordi Hays?

  Interesting tech.

• 1:08:05John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:08:05Jordi Hays?

  So he'll basically start the video and be like, yeah, I didn't really, people have said, oh, get a better microphone, get a camera, all this stuff. Not doing it, just making this video and his videos are super engaging.

• 1:08:15John Coogan?

  Great.

• 1:08:15Jordi Hays?

  He just nerds out about, you can go, uh, watch this video, essential guide to 2024 naval warfare in the Black Sea. And so it'll talk about, yeah, this guy, and it'll talk about all the ways that they're using, uh, you know, autonomous, uh, technologies. And so Splash Robotics, I wouldn't be surprised if they're using his videos to inform their product development.

• 1:08:37John Coogan?

  Very cool.

• 1:08:37Jordi Hays?

  They talk about how. They'll, they'll actually take jet skis and turn them into sort of these remote controlled bombs and you know, eventually would potentially be autonomous. So

• 1:08:48John Coogan?

  Cool.

• 1:08:49Jordi Hays?

  Cool to nerd out on.

• 1:08:50John Coogan?

  Awesome. Well, congrats to the team and let us know how it goes. Let's move on to Brendan Araby, the former co-founder of Oculus VR with Palmer Lucky. He has a new company called Sesame. He says, we're exploring a future where the computer isn't just a tool. It's a partner with a truly natural voice and personality. No big claims, just early work. We're excited to share. And a bunch of people were shouting this out. Toby Lookie, the founder and CEO of Shopify, said, man, Sesame's voice model is absolutely insane. You have got to try this demo and post the link. Still puts up 1K likes. Let's see it. Built different. You'll love to see someone include a link and still do numbers.

• 1:09:35Jordi Hays?

  I want to try to play it. I don't know for

• 1:09:37John Coogan?

  Nikunj also says, this is the most her moment I've felt in the last few years. It's truly uncanny. Recommend trying this now, but in the comments, Garav Vora says, what am I missing? This felt trash. And Nikunj just says, what? Like, so little bit of different, of different experiences. You just got to go try it for yourself. I don't think we're going to pull it up, but it seems like a cool, a cool chat focused, voice focused AI tool. So excited for, for them to launch that. And we recommend that you go make your own decision about whether or not you like it or not. But speaking of AI, we got a post from Kushi. She says, where is cursor for Figma? And you got an answer?

• 1:10:17Jordi Hays?

  Figma is cursor for Figma.

• 1:10:20John Coogan?

  That's true.

• 1:10:21Jordi Hays?

  You've been talking with the team over there.

• 1:10:23John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:10:24Jordi Hays?

  They got some big, big plans in the works.

• 1:10:26John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's really shocking that a founder mode CEO who's a Thiel fellow and has been in the game for so long.

• 1:10:32Jordi Hays?

  Billion dollar breakup fee.

• 1:10:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, billion dollar breakup fee and has been studying this stuff for a decade.

• 1:10:37Jordi Hays?

  Non-dilutive financing.

• 1:10:38John Coogan?

  He's actually heard of AI, you know, and he's been on the same timeline that we've been on. And so he is well aware of it and building plenty of tools to make Figma easier to use and, and more diffuse both on the prompt to design side and then also deployment into actual app. Obviously you can imagine where Figma goes on either side of the design. Program. They've built this great network. They've built this great core design tool that's very, very rich, very deep. It makes a ton of sense. They would extend in both directions.

• 1:11:11Jordi Hays?

  I think Figma should ultimately do the sort of quarterly release model. I think they have more to release than someone like a Flexport, right? They need to be dominating sort of timelines.

• 1:11:21John Coogan?

  And it's highly visual.

• 1:11:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's highly visual. And so having them switch and really start to push, you know, having Dylan push the team to say, we are going to be shipping, you know, these sort of incredible advancements in the product every single quarter would be cool to see.

• 1:11:36John Coogan?

  I was thinking about this, like, have you ever seen those like pictures where people use MS Paint and then they paint like the Mona Lisa and it's like the most incredible thing? Or they do art in Microsoft Excel? I really want to see an account pop up that's like Figma abuse, basically, where someone builds like the Sistine Chapel in Figma and it's like pixel perfect. And it's just like, how do they do it?

• 1:11:59Jordi Hays?

  With the individual pixels.

• 1:12:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So just having someone there obsessively abuse Figma to do something that it can do, but it was certainly not designed to do. I think that is highly viral potential and I think it'd be great marketing.

• 1:12:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, in the age of AI-generated images, I want the artisan designer to be making an image pixel by pixel.

• 1:12:21John Coogan?

  I want to see the time lapse with the face cam.

• 1:12:22Jordi Hays?

  Hand-colored, hand-painted.

• 1:12:24John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:12:26Jordi Hays?

  Go and do it. We'll cover it here live.

• 1:12:28John Coogan?

  It's great. Well, let's move on to Weber, who says, introducing Flora, your intelligent canvas, every creative AI tool thoughtfully connected. We've built Flora, Floraphana AI, side by side with creative professionals from art students to designers at top agencies like Pentagram, to give them speed, control, and collaboration in one seamless system. This feels like Figma adjacent potentially, is that right?

• 1:12:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52John Coogan?

  We built a library of creative workflows from cinematic storyboarding to typography variations designed by creatives with taste.

• 1:12:58Jordi Hays?

  It still feels more oriented around generating things like copy and images versus design, but I'm sure they're thinking about it.

• 1:13:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, like less prosumer, less professional, and maybe more like, what's that, what's that other design tool?

• 1:13:13Jordi Hays?

  Visual Electric?

• 1:13:14John Coogan?

  No, the one that's the Australian girl runs? You know who I'm talking about?

• 1:13:19Jordi Hays?

  Uh, how do we not?

• 1:13:20John Coogan?

  How am I blanking on this? It's worth like billions, right?

• 1:13:22Jordi Hays?

  I.

• 1:13:22John Coogan?

  You know what I'm talking about, right? Can, Canva, Canva.

• 1:13:25Jordi Hays?

  I was gonna say, if you search design tool, it will be the.

• 1:13:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, but Canva was always like a little bit more consumer, like make a meme, make a postcard, make an invite, and then it's gone kind of upmarket. Figma has been more of like what the best designers in the world use, and now they're going a little bit more downmarket to something where an individual programmer could use it. And this feels a little bit more like pop in, make something, and they're starting with, you know, something that's a little bit more organic, UGC driven than, hey, we're plugging this right into enterprises on day one. They've said they built a library of creative workflows from cinematic storyboarding to typography variations. These workflows could save weeks of iteration to get access. Repost the first post above and comment flora. That's hilarious.

• 1:14:10John Coogan?

  Little, little algorithm hacking on your, on your launch video. 1,000 reposts and 3,000 likes, half a million views. Very smart.

• 1:14:19Jordi Hays?

  You don't see that as much.

• 1:14:21John Coogan?

  Very smart.

• 1:14:21Jordi Hays?

  You see that on, when people release podcasts on Instagram now, they'll say, comment for the link, you know? And I'll DM you the link, right? And it's sort of a way to just hack the algorithm to think that there's a ton of interest in a post, but clearly there was a bunch of real interest here and go watch the demo. It's very cool how they, you know, link these models together. And this feels something, you know, closer to cognition or Devon for me, and that as, if they can own the workflow, as the underlying models, you know, get better and they're connecting them in different ways to generate, you know, final outputs, they'll, they'll be well positioned and their product will improve as the underlying models get better.

• 1:15:00John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, it's cool to see people exploring new tools and, uh, yeah, love to play with that and see if we can generate some content for the show with it or something. Let's play around with it. Well, anyway, let's move on to the timeline, which has been in turmoil.

• 1:15:13Jordi Hays?

  Vishal in the chat just asked for this.

• 1:15:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:15Jordi Hays?

  So his timing was perfect.

• 1:15:17John Coogan?

  Fantastic. Paki McCormick says Andorl versus Jason Calacanis, who you got? And a lot of people are sounding off in the comments.

• 1:15:25Jordi Hays?

  Reggie in the comments, drones strike his ass.

• 1:15:30John Coogan?

  Now we're talking, well, I've got the popcorn. And so this all started with, there's been news in the, just in the world that like, there might be some Epstein files coming out, some Epstein leaks or something. Palmer posts a picture of the black book with Jason Calacanis's phone numbers listed there. I guess this is a Rolodex from the late Mr. Epstein. And, but this is actually old news.

• 1:15:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:57John Coogan?

  This broke years ago.

• 1:15:59Jordi Hays?

  This is not to be confused with the client list.

• 1:16:02John Coogan?

  Exactly. Yes, yes, yes. And Jason has a-

• 1:16:04Jordi Hays?

  It doesn't, you know, it doesn't necessarily make, certainly doesn't make Jason look good.

• 1:16:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, but there are lots of people in that, in the black book because they met him for any sort of reason.

• 1:16:15Jordi Hays?

  In this case, they had at least four of his phone numbers. So it sounds like-

• 1:16:19John Coogan?

  It looks like three or three in an address, right? I think, but yeah. So obviously they met and, and Matt Grimm quote tweets Palmer and says, this is the face you make when your weekend just got a little bit more complicated. We see you, Jason. So the Andorl guys are really coming for J Cal. And Jason responded, he says, and now Matt Grimm, Palmer Lucky's partner, is using a Photoshop photo of me being twice as fat as I ever was and trying to slander me by insinuating I was involved with Epstein. Matt knows full well that I wasn't, that I've said I wasn't, and that there is no news here, like thousands of others.

• 1:16:54Jordi Hays?

  The issue here, just, just double clicking on the Photoshop thing is, how do we know this is photoshopped? It doesn't even, if you were going to go to the lengths of photoshopping a picture, you would, you would maybe take it a bit further, I would say. Cause he looks, yeah, sure.

• 1:17:09John Coogan?

  Like those JD Vance ones where he's like full red or like the Giga Chat one? Yeah.

• 1:17:15Jordi Hays?

  Take it a little bit further. This is just very believable. The other thing is, you know, Jason has been vocal about being on Ozempic and these things. And he, he used to have some, some extra weight on him. So the issue with Jason is he does tend to say things that aren't true from time to time. And so I do believe there's some factually correct things in here. Related to this not being the client list.

• 1:17:39John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:17:39Jordi Hays?

  Things like that, but at the same time.

• 1:17:41John Coogan?

  Like thousands of others.

• 1:17:41Jordi Hays?

  I kind of think it might be a real pick. I think it might be a real pick.

• 1:17:45John Coogan?

  And Ted in the 1990s, I am in his black book, which has been out for over a decade. That's true. And has hundreds of other Ted tech finance New Yorkers in it. What is Ted?

• 1:17:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So, so it is a real picture. So a few, a few of the guys in the chat, Rory, Heskel and Brian. Matt actually has a screenshot of the source. He pulled it.

• 1:18:05John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. It is a real photo.

• 1:18:08Jordi Hays?

  Jason.

• 1:18:09John Coogan?

  I mean, we, we respect, we respect someone who's looking great now.

• 1:18:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:14John Coogan?

  He's looking younger than ever. He's getting diced. He's on Ozempic and I see an IFBB pro card potentially in the future. You know, this one not looking great, but he's looking better now. Keep going. Apologize to Palmer.

• 1:18:27Jordi Hays?

  Jason.

• 1:18:27John Coogan?

  Clean up the relationship and then hit the gym.

• 1:18:30Jordi Hays?

  Subscribe to Sam Sulek.

• 1:18:32John Coogan?

  Yeah. Go subscribe to Sam Sulek.

• 1:18:34Jordi Hays?

  The information's all there.

• 1:18:35John Coogan?

  Get on stage to the Arnold Classic.

• 1:18:36Jordi Hays?

  He basically open sourced.

• 1:18:37John Coogan?

  I'm not asking him to go open.

• 1:18:39Jordi Hays?

  People have been, people have been, uh, people have been investing in creators. I'd like to see Jason Calacanis's launch.

• 1:18:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:44Jordi Hays?

  Invest in, you know, give, you know, invest in Sam Sulek. I would kill to be in that round.

• 1:18:48John Coogan?

  I would, actually, that's a great deal.

• 1:18:50Jordi Hays?

  We should try to put that, we should try to put that together.

• 1:18:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, we should.

• 1:18:53Jordi Hays?

  John would, would kill somebody to get allocation.

• 1:18:55John Coogan?

  Oh, man. I think he's going to be extremely successful. I'm super bullish on Sam Sulek. And so, yeah, little bit of, little bit of spicy timeline today. You know, we love the Andorl folks. We love J Cal. There is one problem that we need to address, which is the fact that Jason Calacanis still does not run ads on the All In Podcast. And that I think is his real crime.

• 1:19:19Jordi Hays?

  With the, the All In and turmoil now, you have to imagine he, he's seeing a window to potentially get some ads on there. Right? People.

• 1:19:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:27Jordi Hays?

  Sax is out of the picture.

• 1:19:29John Coogan?

  Do you think Epstein is the reason why he doesn't run ads? Do you think that's what Epstein told him?

• 1:19:34Jordi Hays?

  Say, hey, my final wish to you.

• 1:19:36John Coogan?

  Don't run ads on your podcast.

• 1:19:38Jordi Hays?

  I know you never came to the island.

• 1:19:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:40Jordi Hays?

  But just please, whatever you do.

• 1:19:42John Coogan?

  Don't run ads.

• 1:19:42Jordi Hays?

  Don't run ads. And Jason maybe just wants to respect. It seems like they were maybe, they certainly were friendly. They certainly were friendly. We don't know if they were friends.

• 1:19:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:54Jordi Hays?

  They were definitely acquaintances.

• 1:19:55John Coogan?

  I think Jay Cal has the chance to turn it all around, apologize to Palmer, clean up the relationship, and then run some ads for Anduril.

• 1:20:04Jordi Hays?

  It really is a stain on.

• 1:20:06John Coogan?

  It's rough.

• 1:20:07Jordi Hays?

  Jason and.

• 1:20:08John Coogan?

  It's rough. And, and we know that Palmer does have the ability to turn the other cheek. You know, he was going after Zuck and Meta and Facebook for a long time and they cleaned that up. They cleaned up that relationship. Something happened, things changed, and they clearly, you know, had a conversation. Palmer went and looked at the Orion headset, said, hey, this is great, you know?

• 1:20:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:29John Coogan?

  And so I would, I would love to see that turn around because I hate when the big dogs in tech are fighting. I don't like it.

• 1:20:36Jordi Hays?

  Hate to see it.

• 1:20:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, I hate to see it.

• 1:20:38Jordi Hays?

  See it.

• 1:20:38John Coogan?

  I just want one, one solidified.

• 1:20:40Jordi Hays?

  Podcasters.

• 1:20:41John Coogan?

  Technology.

• 1:20:42Jordi Hays?

  Podcasters and.

• 1:20:43John Coogan?

  Industry.

• 1:20:43Jordi Hays?

  Podcasters and founders should never fight.

• 1:20:46John Coogan?

  Never, never. Anyway, well, if you love Jason Calacanis, don't work at Anduril, I guess. Devin Luton says crazy Anduril campaign.

• 1:20:58Jordi Hays?

  That's an amazing extension. I want to see an Adquick billboard.

• 1:21:01John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:01Jordi Hays?

  That says, if you love Jason Calacanis, you'll hate working.

• 1:21:05John Coogan?

  You'll hate working at Anduril. Yeah. If you're listening to This Week in Startups, probably don't work at Anduril because, yeah, you'll be, it'll be rough for you. But they have a crazy Anduril campaign here at Boston South Station. They put up a bunch of different posters. They're literally obsessed with America. Don't work at Anduril. They have the graffiti, some great design going on, and people are loving the advertisements. And if you're looking to do some out of home, we recommend adquick.com, baby. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising.

• 1:21:37Jordi Hays?

  What's an Adquick line that we could say?

• 1:21:39John Coogan?

  Only Adquick. Only AdQuick combines technology.

• 1:21:43Jordi Hays?

  AdQuick enables you to launch hyper-targeted, out-of-home campaigns.

• 1:21:48John Coogan?

  We're still working on that one.

• 1:21:49Jordi Hays?

  We're still workshopping that.

• 1:21:51John Coogan?

  But it combines technology, out-of-home expertise and data to enable efficient, seamless ad buying across the globe. Go to adquick.com to check it out.

• 1:21:58Jordi Hays?

  They work with a bunch of fantastic companies, too. If you work with AdQuick, you're working with Shopify, Carvana, DoorDash, Poshmark, ButcherBox, Ramp, Wall Street Journal, Warby Parker, Discount Tire, the H&R Block, Lyft, Instacart, Karmah, Compass, Basecamp, Equinox, Pluto TV, DuckDuckGo, Nike, NFL, Amazon, Drizly, GoPuff. They got all the big dogs up there. Go be a big dog. Run some out-of-home ads with AdQuick.

• 1:22:29John Coogan?

  And you can follow Chris on X. He said, "Hey Elon Musk, look at this." And it's a post from someone flagging the fact that Google is buying Apple search ads on the Grok term is just too beautiful a circle of life for me. Google is buying Apple search ads on Grok term.

• 1:22:49Jordi Hays?

  Hey, you wanted this extremely politically incorrect LLM? How about the most-

• 1:22:55John Coogan?

  The most politically correct.

• 1:22:56Jordi Hays?

  The most politically correct one.

• 1:22:57John Coogan?

  Do you want the opposite?

• 1:22:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:00John Coogan?

  And so, yeah.

• 1:23:00Jordi Hays?

  I didn't actually know. I don't know how I didn't know Google had a Gemini app.

• 1:23:04John Coogan?

  We talked about this. They spun it out because it was so hard to find because I was complaining. They listened to me. I was complaining about how I paid all this money and I couldn't get to Gemini. Although I'm sure when I download the app, who knows what model I'll be on? And the model probably won't even tell me what model I'm on and what the context window will be. But that's not how people use these things. And so they say, "Unlock the power of Google AI on your phone. You search for Grok, you get Google Gemini. Don't make the mistake. You know, be sharp. Don't get fooled. If you're looking for Grok sexy mode, you're not going to find it in Google Gemini."

• 1:23:36John Coogan?

  Let's go to Brent Leong, who we've been doing some work with. We love this guy. He says, "The lean startup thinking has probably done more harm than good. Lots of low conviction, three-month pivots and folding based on an abysmally small sample size encourages being neurotic and constantly skeptical. Almost the opposite of being an entrepreneur." What do you think, Jordy?

• 1:23:59Jordi Hays?

  I mean, the thing that- Yeah, I think the lean, like the whole thing, the best thing you can do if you're early in your startup journey is just read all the books, read zero to one, read the lean startup.

• 1:24:11John Coogan?

  Founder's podcast.

• 1:24:12Jordi Hays?

  Founder's podcast. I think founder's podcast is advice or wisdom that's more timeless, right? Where Dave, Senator is not saying you need to fully follow the McDonald's founder and just do what they said. He was just saying this is his approach to work, learn from it, take it, apply it. I read the lean startup back in the day. I think it's, it's this fine line between sometimes if you're willing to just persevere and look stupid and be okay with the fact that you don't have traction and just keep pushing forward, trying to get it. Sometimes you get paid off, you know, you get paid for it. If you look at, you know, crypto founders, the ones that have been successful have not followed this approach for the most part. They've sort of just said, you know, they've

• 1:24:57Jordi Hays?

  stayed, stayed lean, but more so they're willing to look stupid for two years so that when the market rips, you know, they look like a genius, right? And so it's definitely, this is a vintage post. I think we're now seeing, if you're going and building in hard tech, for example, you can't afford to follow purely the lean startup approach. It's, it's a model that I think works really well for PMF or DICE style products where it just says, you know, intense focus, stay really lean, you know, but, but yeah, it's not going to work if you're trying to build and roll, right? You need to have this sort of bold, ambitious plan and be very patient and execute it over many,

• 1:25:37Jordi Hays?

  many years and, you know, realize that, you know, you could do years of work before being paid for it. And that's part of the game.

• 1:25:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, I think this is, the lean startup thinking has kind of mutated a little bit. Like, the original idea of the lean startup was just that in the dot com era, in order to build a website, you had to raise $10 million and build a data center. Like I, I remember as a kid, like my dad worked at a startup.

• 1:26:05Jordi Hays?

  You hand-built some of those data centers.

• 1:26:06John Coogan?

  And I literally did. I would rack servers as like a summer job.

• 1:26:09Jordi Hays?

  That's amazing.

• 1:26:10John Coogan?

  And, and this was just for like a company with a website.

• 1:26:13Jordi Hays?

  You gotta, when, when, when we're, you know, 60 and, and some anon posters in the comments, you know, chirping at you, you say, I was, I was racking servers when I was your age.

• 1:26:24John Coogan?

  When you were in diapers. Yeah. Uh, but it's true. Like, like the default, the default path to building even just a website. Like we want to build a car, a car auction website, or we want to build any startup. It was raise $10 million because you are going to need to buy servers, hire a lot of different people. Because there are not these abstraction layers of AWS. There's no cursor. There's not even Python. Like the code needs to be written in Java or C++. Well, what happens when you write in Java and C++? You need five times as many people because everything takes longer to write. And so, um, so the lean startup was just getting the word out that it is possible to now build a company.

• 1:27:07Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 1:27:07John Coogan?

  In a lower cost, lower capex intensive way. And that was true.

• 1:27:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. He basically just coined what was happening.

• 1:27:15John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:27:16Jordi Hays?

  In some circles and said, you know, this is a way, but it's founder mode, right? Where founder mode didn't have a name.

• 1:27:22John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:27:22Jordi Hays?

  And then, but people kind of were aware that certain companies just operated, you know, and CEOs just operated differently.

• 1:27:28John Coogan?

  Yeah. And, and so people were, he was just saying like, hey, we don't need these $10 million seed rounds to build websites anymore. You can build on top of these services and stay lean. And then, once you find traction, talk to your customers, get out of the building. These were all these ideas of like, don't go and waste all this money and, and do a $10 million experiment. Do a $1 million experiment. But I agree with Brent that pivoting every three months, folding based on an abysmally low sample size. That is wrong. You should, you should make sure that you really tested things, actually understand the product. And ideally you have a ton of conviction about the, the direction that the company is going before you even start. So you're like, yeah, the first three months have been rough, but I still know that there's an insight here.

• 1:28:12John Coogan?

  I still know that there's some fundamental value of what I'm creating. Anyway, let's move on to Rohit. He says, excellent portrait of Tyler Cowen in The Economist. Lots of known beats, but this is the most underrated part. And so The Economist did a whole profile on Tyler Cowen. I highly recommend you go check it out. But I love this quote. He says Cowan's life, Cowan's emotional life remains a mystery. He told me he did not experience regret. I don't know what the function of it is, he said. Is it to signal thoughtfulness, to stop you making further mistakes? It's like revenge. I don't understand it. Cowan also said he doesn't understand envy or anger. He didn't know what, he didn't know what he should be envious of.

• 1:28:54John Coogan?

  He didn't get lonely by himself or in company. He actually said, why bother? When he told me he had never been depressed, I asked him to clarify what he meant. He'd never been clinically depressed, depressed for a month, for a week, an afternoon. I looked up from my notebook, an enormous smile, one I had not seen before, spread across the whole of Cowan's face. Like, for a whole afternoon, he asked, hugely grinning, just mugged.

• 1:29:20Jordi Hays?

  So on the, on the topic of our earlier subject, GPT-4.5, Tyler Cowen was quoted today saying, "I am more positive on 4.5 than almost anyone else I have read. I view it as a model that attempts to improve on the dimension of aesthetics only." As we know from Khan's third critique, that is about the hardest achievement possible. And so somebody did the be me prompt. So be me, Tyler Cowen. Wake up at 5:23 a.m. precisely, eat exactly seven blueberries, three Brazil nuts, and a quarter cup of Icelandic skier, sky, sky, productivity.jpg. Write two blog posts, one on obscure Romanian cinema, the other on the economics of parking meters.

• 1:30:01Jordi Hays?

  Check email reply exclusively in lowercase. Very interesting. Thanks for this. Send. Perhaps. Send. Attend breakfast meeting with unnamed intelligence officials, discuss Singaporean food stalls instead of geopolitics. Lunchtime arrives, ask waiter, what is your least popular dish? Waiter visibly confused.

• 1:30:18John Coogan?

  What is your least popular dish?

• 1:30:20Jordi Hays?

  Recommend some fermented herring special. Wonderful. I'll have that. Extra spicy. Genuinely enjoy it. Back to office, podcast guest waiting. It's a chess grandmaster who's also an amateur botanist and former DJ.

• 1:30:32John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 1:30:33Jordi Hays?

  So I actually think this is like pretty funny.

• 1:30:35John Coogan?

  That's pretty good. And, and that's just like so many different threads pulling all together. There must be a lot of different data in the training model if you're pulling all that together. Cause some of that stuff, you really have to. You know, follow all of his blog posts, all of his tweets, all of his podcast transcripts to understand or talk to him in person to really get that flavor. So yeah, good job.

• 1:30:57Jordi Hays?

  Nailed it.

• 1:30:57John Coogan?

  Maybe potentially underrated. Maybe the early haters are wrong. We'll see. We'll see as it rolls out. Either way, it's just nice to have a more aesthetic model. I think that's good, even if it's not. There's actually maybe even a better outcome. If it's just a nicer, friendlier, more, more aesthetic experience. It doesn't necessarily need to be 190 IQ solve every problem ever.

• 1:31:17Jordi Hays?

  Carpathy was kind of alluding to, just said differently, which was if you're a high taste tester, you're going to notice the difference here. If you're a low B, you know, word cell, you're, you know, you're going to maybe miss.

• 1:31:30John Coogan?

  I need to, we, we need to try the be me prompt. And maybe that should be the new prompt. See how it goes.

• 1:31:34Jordi Hays?

  Be me, golden retriever. Start day.

• 1:31:37John Coogan?

  Jordi Hays.

• 1:31:38Jordi Hays?

  Run around the house, bark a little bit.

• 1:31:40John Coogan?

  Turbo S dot PNG.

• 1:31:42Jordi Hays?

  Put on sunglasses indoors.

• 1:31:44John Coogan?

  It's great. Well, we got a post from Catherine Boyle. JD Vance is going to be headlining the American Dynamism Summit next month.

• 1:31:52Jordi Hays?

  This is Coachella for tech bros that like guns.

• 1:31:57John Coogan?

  Yes. And Coachella for tech bros that don't like guns have Gavin, Gavin Newsom and Dr. Chelsea Clinton at the Upfront Summit. And so this is the opposite of the All In Summit. It's Chris Fralick.

• 1:32:09Jordi Hays?

  Wait, Chelsea Clinton has a venture fund?

• 1:32:12John Coogan?

  She has a venture fund?

• 1:32:13Jordi Hays?

  Metrodora Venture Fund?

• 1:32:14John Coogan?

  What? I didn't know that.

• 1:32:15Jordi Hays?

  How have we not? We've, we've, we've said before, we would never raise a round.

• 1:32:19John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. Also, when did she get her doctorate?

• 1:32:23Jordi Hays?

  Metrodora Ventures.

• 1:32:25John Coogan?

  Interesting. Anyway, yeah, Upfront Summit happened this week. It was very popular. I think Delian stopped by. Some other people texted me that they were in town.

• 1:32:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So she has a values conscious venture capital firm investing in health and learning.

• 1:32:39John Coogan?

  Huh.

• 1:32:39Jordi Hays?

  Maybe she could back the PMF or die founders.

• 1:32:42John Coogan?

  That'd be great.

• 1:32:42Jordi Hays?

  They also don't want to raise, but yeah, you know, venture is about value add more than capital. I bet you doctor.

• 1:32:48John Coogan?

  What were the values that she cares about?

• 1:32:51Jordi Hays?

  Health and learning?

• 1:32:52John Coogan?

  Well, she should back Sam Sulek. He's all about health.

• 1:32:54Jordi Hays?

  That's so true. That's so true.

• 1:32:55John Coogan?

  He's the pinnacle of health. Look at a picture of him.

• 1:32:57Jordi Hays?

  Didn't Upfront try to get Sam Sulek, but he just was busy?

• 1:33:00John Coogan?

  They got Chamillionaire a long time ago. Did you know that?

• 1:33:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they've had a, they've had a star.

• 1:33:04John Coogan?

  Chamillionaire as like a, as like a venture partner. It was very fun. I think Andreessen had Nas and then Upfront had Chamillionaire. And so you'd hop on a call and Chamillionaire would just be hanging out with you, talking and talking sass.

• 1:33:15Jordi Hays?

  Talking sass.

• 1:33:16John Coogan?

  It's great. Uh, anyway, speaking of the PMF for die, guys, let's go to Blake. He says, standards I have for new employees slash partners. Work 12 plus hours a day, make massive sacrifices, desire to pay their dues, won't break under pressure. These are 100% within one's control.

• 1:33:33Jordi Hays?

  So the, the, the key here

• 1:33:35John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:33:36Jordi Hays?

  Is it's perfectly fine for a leader to say this.

• 1:33:40John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:33:40Jordi Hays?

  If they live all those things.

• 1:33:42John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:33:42Jordi Hays?

  Blake is, you can go on pmfordie.xyz, which is not our website and see exactly how much he's working.

• 1:33:47John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:33:48Jordi Hays?

  Tracked, uh, every single second of the day. He's making massive sacrifices. He's not leaving the cage for 90, you know, potentially 90 days.

• 1:33:56John Coogan?

  He's paying his dues.

• 1:33:57Jordi Hays?

  Potentially ever.

• 1:33:58John Coogan?

  He hasn't broken under pressure.

• 1:33:59Jordi Hays?

  He hasn't broken under pressure.

• 1:34:00John Coogan?

  He's only 12 days in.

• 1:34:01Jordi Hays?

  I mean, there was a lot of pressure.

• 1:34:02John Coogan?

  Anything could happen.

• 1:34:03Jordi Hays?

  There was a lot of pressure week one. The thing, the thing we didn't fully calculate with the cage is that there would be hundreds of people basically, you know, demanding that, uh, demanding attention in the chat. So we'll get to talk about that. We're actually going to be doing a press conference on the PMF for dive stream, uh, at 1:00 PM, uh, Pacific, uh, in just 30 minutes. So looking forward to it.

• 1:34:23John Coogan?

  We gotta, we gotta check on him because if pmf4die.xyz shows Blake in the seat for 11 hours, 59 minutes, it's not going to look good for him.

• 1:34:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:33John Coogan?

  He's gotta, he's gotta be that. He's got, work cell number 17's got to be operating at full capacity.

• 1:34:38Jordi Hays?

  Totally.

• 1:34:39John Coogan?

  Uh, let's go to Elon Musk. Um, he's quote tweeting someone who is doing another AI game dev, uh, demo. Uh, he says, wow, this is cool. Uh, Danny says, I believe that Grok can be a serious tool to build quality games. I've been pushing the limits of Grok 3 by having it code this retro Doom inspired Gothic shooter from scratch. Uh, it's been less than 24 hours to, of work, and I think I got it to a pretty good place. And the demo's pretty cool. But yeah, there's another post in here that I wanted to highlight that was that was fun about how if you want to go viral, the best way is to code a game right now and and screen share the the video. Let me see if I can find that one.

• 1:35:20Jordi Hays?

  Yourself building the game.

• 1:35:21John Coogan?

  You build the game.

• 1:35:22Jordi Hays?

  And then play it.

• 1:35:23John Coogan?

  And then you.

• 1:35:24Jordi Hays?

  Build it, play it, build it, play it.

• 1:35:26John Coogan?

  Yeah, Kristoff says, if you want to go viral right now, start making a video game with Cursor and post the progress. I'm sick of seeing it, but that's what gets the impressions right now. And so, yeah, maybe we should build a TBPN game. Go viral. Hey, we built this in 10 seconds.

• 1:35:43Jordi Hays?

  We just need to bait.

• 1:35:44John Coogan?

  One prompt.

• 1:35:45Jordi Hays?

  We need to be focused. One post a day from each of us baiting an Elon repost.

• 1:35:49John Coogan?

  That's good.

• 1:35:49Jordi Hays?

  Wow, Elon is awesome and Grok is so awesome. I love Grok. I stopped using all I stopped using ChatGPT and everything else and I just use Grok. It is the best. Repost.

• 1:36:02John Coogan?

  I also. I also crushed.

• 1:36:04Jordi Hays?

  Your phone just starts melting, shaking.

• 1:36:06John Coogan?

  I crushed my 911 into a into a ball of metal and I bought a Cybertruck.

• 1:36:11Jordi Hays?

  The metal sidings on my Cybertruck with it.

• 1:36:14John Coogan?

  With Crush 911. Melted down 911 is the side side plating for sure.

• 1:36:19Jordi Hays?

  We actually should do one of those. We it would be worthwhile doing a, you know, telling Jason Calacan, this huge Tesla guy, to say, hey, we're going to drive a vintage Ferrari. You drive a Cybertruck and do one of those, you know, pulling battles and just let the Cybertruck win.

• 1:36:35John Coogan?

  Oh, there you go.

• 1:36:36Jordi Hays?

  Posted from our account.

• 1:36:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, so we get the.

• 1:36:37Jordi Hays?

  Get the repost.

• 1:36:38John Coogan?

  So we get the ratings.

• 1:36:39Jordi Hays?

  We get the ratings.

• 1:36:40John Coogan?

  You get the ratings, as Jay Calix says.

• 1:36:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:42John Coogan?

  But it is cool. I love that people are building cool games with with Cursor, with Grok, with all these different tools. Very, very fun. And and we love to see people be able to instantiate like silly ideas like PMF or die or PMF or die dot XYZ in a very quick fashion, which is only possible with the AI era. And so, yeah, if you have some funny idea, something on your bucket list, go build it, post it. You might get quote tweeted by Elon Musk and get 3 million views on your on your app. Drive a bunch of followers and then start a podcast. Who knows? Anyway, let's move on to Lewis Hamilton.

• 1:37:16Jordi Hays?

  Okay, I want to, I want to read this because this is, uh, this sounds like something that Senna would say.

• 1:37:22John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:37:22Jordi Hays?

  And it's clearly.

• 1:37:23John Coogan?

  I think he might be quoting.

• 1:37:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, he's potentially just ripping this. You know, a lot of the best athletes, you know, actors, et cetera, have just been ripping Senna.

• 1:37:34John Coogan?

  Senna quotes, yeah.

• 1:37:35Jordi Hays?

  Clearly inspired by, by Timmy or potentially happening at the same time, Lewis Hamilton. Now over at Ferrari says, don't ever compare me to anybody else. I'm the first and only black driver and that's, that's ever been in the sport. I'm built different. I've been through a lot. I've had my own journey. You can't compare me to another 40 year old, past or present Formula One driver in history. Because they are nothing like me. I'm hungry, driven, don't have a wife and kids. I'm focused on one thing and that's winning. That's my number one priority. I love how locked in he is. There's this quote, I think it's, uh, it's Alonso.

• 1:38:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:09Jordi Hays?

  Where he's driving and he makes this like very, very like sketchy pass.

• 1:38:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:15Jordi Hays?

  And he goes after they're, they're interviewing, he goes, oh, he's got a wife and kids at home. I knew he would break. And it's like the craziest thing because you can tell.

• 1:38:24John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:25Jordi Hays?

  He's, you know, they're both gunning for the corner.

• 1:38:27John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:38:27Jordi Hays?

  He's like, yeah, this guy's.

• 1:38:28John Coogan?

  I don't want to die.

• 1:38:29Jordi Hays?

  Racing again is like, I don't want to die.

• 1:38:31John Coogan?

  Wow, that is crazy. I hadn't thought about that.

• 1:38:32Jordi Hays?

  And so when you're racing, it's, it's, you know, the, the, yeah, I, I don't know what the actual, I'm sure that base jumping is more dangerous than.

• 1:38:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:40Jordi Hays?

  You know, F1, but F1 is one of the most dangerous, you know?

• 1:38:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:45Jordi Hays?

  High level professional sports.

• 1:38:46John Coogan?

  Thankfully getting a lot less dangerous thanks to the halo and some of this.

• 1:38:50Jordi Hays?

  And a hundred percent. I, I drive a lot slower than I did pre kids.

• 1:38:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:54Jordi Hays?

  I, I used to go up in the canyons and have a rip. I do that much less frequently now.

• 1:39:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, makes sense. Anyway, let's move on to Sam Lessin. Sam says, Earns, what did you get done this week at, at AI scale is in fact the AI future. AI isn't going to be your professional assistant. It's going to be your professional manager. Getting spicy, a lot of people probably won't like this one. Over and over I see.

• 1:39:20Jordi Hays?

  Sam doesn't get enough credit for being up there in the rage bait hall of fame with, with people like sweaty startups.

• 1:39:27John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:28Jordi Hays?

  You know, he's up there, Sam is more sophisticated.

• 1:39:31John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:39:31Jordi Hays?

  You know, in his approach.

• 1:39:32John Coogan?

  Higher brow.

• 1:39:33Jordi Hays?

  He's not saying, you know, I want my employees to work hard. He's saying you're going to be managed by.

• 1:39:38John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:39:38Jordi Hays?

  An AI. And I think this is a cool take. You know, we've talked before, you can imagine a world where. An individual who's never managed another person before is managing Devon and other agents to run their business, but this is sort of flipping that on its head.

• 1:39:54John Coogan?

  So it says, over and over, I see people pushing these rosy ideas that AI is going to be your assistant. Fine, yes, you will get some cute AI that schedules for you in some form and sends sweet nothings in the morning about your day. It will prepare little reports for you that might make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but that won't be the real leveraged impact. The real leveraged impact is that AI is going to be your manager. You are the order taker for it, not the other way around. Elon has got this right. The real value of asking formally, what have you done this week? And knowing who is pulling weight, culling those who don't and optimizing pushing those who are slash can. You couldn't do it effectively before AI at scale, but now you can. It might be nicely disguised as a coach. Cute. Hey, to be more productive, to do XYZ, or it looks like you

• 1:40:39John Coogan?

  could focus on X versus Y if you want to get that promotion. But what it will really be doing is snitching for your boss, your boss's boss, and ultimately the dreaded shareholder. Why? Well, that is where the productivity is going to come from. AI will clear the path for basic, easy tasks to make sure your time is leveraged fully and will make it easy for managers to deal with all the complexity, cut to the chase of where and how value comes from and who is driving it. More transparency is generally good, but people who think this is some rosy machine works for man, nah, it's the other way around. Interesting, especially interesting in light of that controversial AI sweatshop company from YC this week, that it's like, the what did you get? No one really pieced it together, but that company could have just

• 1:41:22John Coogan?

  been called, what did you get done this week, AI?

• 1:41:25Jordi Hays?

  No, it's more of like, what did you get done in the last hour?

• 1:41:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:28Jordi Hays?

  What did you get done in the last 10 minutes?

• 1:41:30John Coogan?

  Five seconds.

• 1:41:30Jordi Hays?

  And then comparing that over time.

• 1:41:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:32Jordi Hays?

  Previously, and knowledge workers have this thing where they sort of get assigned a project or they have a general area of responsibility and then they just sort of have to, there's actually really delayed feedback. Everybody that's managed a team before, if you started a company, you hire somebody, you sort of break down what they need to get done, you check in with them a week later, and sometimes you're saying, wow, this amazing, incredible progress, you're crushing it.

• 1:41:55John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:41:56Jordi Hays?

  Sometimes you're sitting there and being like, Well, what did you do the last two days?

• 1:42:00John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:42:01Jordi Hays?

  You're coming to me now confused. I wish you asked me, you know,

• 1:42:04John Coogan?

  Two days ago.

• 1:42:05Jordi Hays?

  Two days ago.

• 1:42:05John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:42:06Jordi Hays?

  And even worse is like if, if something slips for a couple of weeks and it's like, oh, it didn't even get started.

• 1:42:11John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:42:12Jordi Hays?

  And AI can sort of potentially be omnipresent and sort of be in real time guiding people towards, you know, the right outcomes.

• 1:42:19John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:42:20Jordi Hays?

  And so I still think there's like a manager sitting above the AI coach manager.

• 1:42:24John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:42:25Jordi Hays?

  That is sort of setting, you know, the goals, but maybe over time, you know, that, that fades and it's just, we're all just working for the.

• 1:42:32John Coogan?

  Who knows?

• 1:42:33Jordi Hays?

  Hard work and paper clips.

• 1:42:34John Coogan?

  The shareholders at the end of the day.

• 1:42:36Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 1:42:37John Coogan?

  Uh, let's go to roll off Bota.

• 1:42:38Jordi Hays?

  That's actually. Just on, you know, to kind of extrapolate there, you can imagine a world where shareholders in a public company say, we're actually collectively, you know, as shareholders are going to vote to hire, you know, basically hire this AI consulting team. That's going to micromanage the management. It's, it doesn't seem unreasonable that that, that could happen. And potentially allows shareholders to exert, you know, more, more day to day control over the management at a company.

• 1:43:12John Coogan?

  Could be a lot of pushback. We'll see. I wonder what will happen with that post, if it will break containment and get some pushback, but for now, I think it's a, it's a reasonable take. Who knows? We'll see. Uh, let's go to roll off Bota over at Sequoia. He says, uh, we remain destined to repeat the mistakes of the past. SPVs are making a comeback where the lead investor speaks for less than 10% of the capital, yet eagerly lines up the latest set of tourist chumps who think the story will end differently this time. It's only been three years. What do you think?

• 1:43:45John Coogan?

  Who is he sub tweeting?

• 1:43:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, crazy. I mean, I'm sure he's just seeing a number of rounds happening across his portfolio and saying, wait, this person's doing, you know, a $20 million investment and they only have. $50 million under management, how does that work?

• 1:44:01John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:44:02Jordi Hays?

  And it's, oh, it's a manager who's, but yeah, again, there's a bunch of really, you know, good players out there that use SPVs are great, you know, tool for investors. And oftentimes they provide access to great companies, but certainly there are many examples where, you know, SPVs typically get sort of, if you're a founder putting together a round, you're prioritizing people that have the capital ready to wire, right? Or it's one capital call away to wire. SPVs are oftentimes a, not a last resort, but you know, you're, maybe you make room for somebody to do an SPV because they're saying, oh, I'm going to bring in this celebrity and this, you know, person, whatever.

• 1:44:45Jordi Hays?

  But again, I think, you know, I don't think he's subtweeting figure, but figure right now, one of the risk of the rounds they're putting together is he's basically marketing, in my view, he's almost marketing to retail investors because if he needs to raise $2 billion at a $40 billion valuation, the people that will do those rounds are tourist chumps who think they're getting in on the next Tesla.

• 1:45:10John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:45:11Jordi Hays?

  But are ultimately that when that company has been, you know, certainly a firm like Sequoia or Founder's Fund is not doing figure at almost twice the price of Anduril.

• 1:45:22John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. And so there's clearly like a spectrum of kind of credibility in rounds, not just what, you know, are you doing an SPV or going with a traditional VC firm? But even within the VC world, there are some funds that have very high GP commits where the partner who's doing the deal has a very material portion of their wealth in that fund. And so they are like, they've basically solved the principal agent problem.

• 1:45:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:49John Coogan?

  By putting their, tying their net worth to that firm. And, and so, yeah, you might raise a $10 million Series A and $2 million of that might come from the partners of the GP or more in some cases. And so. If it's a professional investor who's highly aligned, that can usually be the best possible signal or the best possible outcome.

• 1:46:12Jordi Hays?

  There's a good, there's a good comment, there's a good comment here from Hari. He says, this is generally true, responding to roll off. This is generally true like 99% of the time, but when you stumble on a diamond in the rough, dot, dot, dot, I'm still chasing the hive for my second ever angel investment into an SPV with no institutional lead run by Naval into the notion seed round in 2016. So he, you know, I'm sure that was somewhere around 20 post and is now sitting at north of 10 billion and did, did pretty well.

• 1:46:43John Coogan?

  And I wonder if that SPV was the, was the lead check or not, because it's very different if it's like, oh, there was a.

• 1:46:50Jordi Hays?

  Well, it said it had no institutional lead.

• 1:46:52John Coogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:46:53Jordi Hays?

  It basically, you know, it's very possible Naval was the biggest and his investor group was the biggest.

• 1:46:58John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Naval's like pretty coded as SPV runner. Anyway, let's move on. What comes after smartphones? AI glasses you actually want to talk to, says Anjani Midha. We at Andreessen Horowitz are excited to invest in Sesame's mission to bring the computer to life.

• 1:47:20Jordi Hays?

  Okay. So this is a reference back to the tech demo earlier in the show where, you know, somebody was saying that this is the most her-like moment that they've experienced. Other people were pushing back on it, but I just like the domain sesame.com.

• 1:47:34John Coogan?

  It's nice.

• 1:47:35Jordi Hays?

  That's a good one.

• 1:47:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's a good one.

• 1:47:37Jordi Hays?

  It feels very, you know, it's very memorable.

• 1:47:39John Coogan?

  Yeah. And then it still ties to like this idea of like open sesame. You're talking to a genie in a lamp. You have three wishes. Like there's like some fun lore there, but it's still a word you can spell. You can get the dot com.

• 1:47:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And so this is a company that's competing directly with Meta Ray-Bans, which is going to be tough because ASAP Rocky, famed rapper, style god, is working with Ray-Ban. And so I saw Reggie was posting that ASAP Rocky will then be working on the Meta Ray-Ban. And you'll see.

• 1:48:08John Coogan?

  And they have a crazy partnership with Luxottica for to bring in-house all the Ray-Ban stuff. And then obviously they're rolling out Lama and all these different tools. And that was one of the more attractive features of the Meta Ray-Bans when I experienced them was taking the dog for a walk and being able to just say, hey, hey, Meta, what's, you know, like, how old is this tree or something or whatever? It was like, it was, it was cool to be able to ask, you know, history questions. You're listening to a podcast and then you can just say, hey, Meta, like, tell me more about this and it becomes more of a conversation. Anyway, let's move on to Bridgette Harris over at Founder's Fund. She says, "Demand for yield will send the stable, stable coins supply way, way higher.

• 1:48:49John Coogan?

  Fintechs are realizing stable coins are the best way to deliver yield to customers and it'll become status quo the same way Cash Back did. Once customers adjust to getting yield on everything, it's hard to go back. Latin America is the first mover here, but popular US-based fintech platforms are also starting to offer yield, which consumers are increasingly recognizing as the new normal." Right now Coinbase automatically offers 4.1% API on any USDC held on their platform. And there's a bunch of other companies that are getting into the game, into the stable coin game. Robin Hood's mentioned and they're pushing, yeah, different API for subscribers, API for subscribers. And so moving people into stable coins.

• 1:49:32Jordi Hays?

  It's so crazy that Ballge was formative and actually just making this category and now the market cap is, the stablecoin market cap is how many?

• 1:49:41John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, yeah, 21Co was, was, was his company. He wanted to create a computer that could mine Bitcoin and also do a bunch of other stuff with stable coins and micro payments using crypto. And now the technology is finally approaching reality. The micro payments haven't really rolled out yet, but.

• 1:50:00Jordi Hays?

  It's really painful that one of the areas of crypto that has the strongest product market fit, you couldn't really. Invest in the tokens themselves.

• 1:50:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:10Jordi Hays?

  Is one, one.

• 1:50:11John Coogan?

  Well, Tether, if you got into that deal, they're making a ton of money. They're printing money. Cause they take a slice of the APY on top of it, the yield. But I mean, it also has to work better in a high rate environment, right? Because how can you get high yield on USDC in a zero interest rate environment? It's gotta be.

• 1:50:28Jordi Hays?

  Landed to F C X.

• 1:50:31Jordi Hays?

  They're gonna try to make it 10x in a day.

• 1:50:33John Coogan?

  Question.

• 1:50:34Jordi Hays?

  You might lose it all.

• 1:50:35John Coogan?

  Well, we got some personnel news. Joe Gebbia, the founder of Airbnb. Is moving on to Doge. He says he's excited to share. I'm bringing my designer brain and startup spirit into the government. My first project at Doge is improving the slow and paper-based retirement process. Hilarious. Like, that is a job that no one in his position would ever want.

• 1:51:01Jordi Hays?

  Has ever done.

• 1:51:02John Coogan?

  Has ever done.

• 1:51:02Jordi Hays?

  I'm gonna go be a product manager for the government.

• 1:51:06John Coogan?

  It's insane that this is a pull. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for your service. Like, I 100% want a smoother and less paper-based retirement process. This is fantastic. Since leaving his operating role at Airbnb in 2022, he's been looking for the next design challenge in the digital realm. And he can think of a few more important, and he says, I can think of few more important ones than volunteering to improve the user experience within our government. If anyone else in good standing wants to help design beautiful, user-friendly digital products, reach out. And so he's going over to the Office of Personnel Management, trying to smooth things over with good design, and that makes a ton of sense. I love it.

• 1:51:47Jordi Hays?

  So cool to see.

• 1:51:48John Coogan?

  And you've seen just like the flaws with like the Medicare website took all this time. And like, whenever you interact with any government website, you're just like. This feels 20 years old, like what's going on here? And so just having someone in there who can, you know, staff a team of designers, turn things around quickly, actually implement changes.

• 1:52:07Jordi Hays?

  Most people haven't, you know, build a company like, like Airbnb, you know, and they go, they go into the, the OPM.

• 1:52:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:15Jordi Hays?

  Business, other people's money.

• 1:52:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:17Jordi Hays?

  Joe said, okay, I'm going to go into the office, I'm going to go to the OPM, you know, sector and the Office of Personnel Management.

• 1:52:23John Coogan?

  I love it. Yeah.

• 1:52:24Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, you know, make our country a better place to be.

• 1:52:28John Coogan?

  I mean, it is crazy. Like, like you think about his experience at Airbnb, he wasn't just the co-founder who was there for a couple of years. He was there all the way to 2022. So historic run 15, 14 years, something like that. And then also Airbnb operated at a scale that is actually somewhat relevant to the government. You know, it's like millions and millions of people, they're dealing with payments, they're dealing with, uh, not, maybe not social security numbers, but certainly like ID and, uh, and KYC stuff. And so they've done a lot of different tools here. So, uh, great post. Congratulations to you, Joe, and good luck on your mission to improve, uh, the retirement workflow.

• 1:53:04Jordi Hays?

  Incredible. Uh, before we jump into the next post, we got a, uh, request from Brandon Jacoby. He's, we're going to pull up a video right now that Zuck just posted on his Instagram. Ben's pulling it up.

• 1:53:15Jordi Hays?

  He doesn't have audio. I don't think we need, uh, I don't think we need audio.

• 1:53:18John Coogan?

  Look at this. Wow.

• 1:53:19Jordi Hays?

  So Zuck posted this on his Instagram.

• 1:53:21John Coogan?

  Oh my God. This is incredible. People who called the top on Zuck.

• 1:53:29Jordi Hays?

  Okay, but.

• 1:53:29John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:53:30Jordi Hays?

  But I, this is a live reaction. I have no idea. This is for, I don't think Zuck can move like this.

• 1:53:35John Coogan?

  Is he AI?

• 1:53:36Jordi Hays?

  I think he's flexing a new.

• 1:53:37John Coogan?

  I don't think so. I think he did it. I think it's real. Look at, yeah, look at the jump. Yeah, that's accurate. The fingers count up. Everything looks good. They're having a blast. He's singing. This is amazing.

• 1:53:48Jordi Hays?

  Where is this?

• 1:53:49John Coogan?

  He's doubling down.

• 1:53:50Jordi Hays?

  Wife's birthday or something?

• 1:53:51John Coogan?

  Something like that. Wow. What an amazing, amazing post. I love it.

• 1:53:57Jordi Hays?

  Okay, I'm.

• 1:53:58John Coogan?

  You know, you know, in China, that would get you in prison. Did you see? Yeah.

• 1:54:04Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so he says, your wife only turns 41.

• 1:54:07John Coogan?

  There we go. What, what, what song is he singing?

• 1:54:12John Coogan?

  This is incredible.

• 1:54:13Jordi Hays?

  Here, I'm going to pull up the audio real quick.

• 1:54:16John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 1:54:16Jordi Hays?

  React.

• 1:54:17John Coogan?

  It's so good. Um, yeah, Jack Ma did something similar.

• 1:54:27Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so he's lip syncing it.

• 1:54:28John Coogan?

  Okay, that's great.

• 1:54:29Jordi Hays?

  But still.

• 1:54:30John Coogan?

  Yeah, Jack Ma did the rock star thing onstage and shortly after kind of disappeared. Literally, because it was like, people were like, okay, he's becoming like a god. Like, people are like worshipping him.

• 1:54:39Jordi Hays?

  Credit to Zuck, he practiced that to a degree that he

• 1:54:43John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:43Jordi Hays?

  He looked

• 1:54:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:45Jordi Hays?

  Like a real singer.

• 1:54:46John Coogan?

  The perfect blend of robot and bro. Clearly tested it, ran the playbook.

• 1:54:50Jordi Hays?

  Totally mugging all the people that said, oh, they were trying to do a polymarket on if he was gonna get divorced this year or not.

• 1:54:56John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:56Jordi Hays?

  Remember?

• 1:54:57John Coogan?

  Fake news on that.

• 1:54:58Jordi Hays?

  They're back.

• 1:54:59John Coogan?

  And, yeah, I mean, I think

• 1:55:00Jordi Hays?

  Gambler's are in shambles.

• 1:55:01John Coogan?

  I think he did the right thing. You know, there's a lot of questions about like, oh, should he back off the bro stuff? No, double down. Go crazier. Keep it going.

• 1:55:09Jordi Hays?

  I mean, this is sophisticated and wholesome stuff.

• 1:55:12John Coogan?

  It is, it's very wholesome.

• 1:55:13Jordi Hays?

  Your wife's 40th, you're gonna put on this incredible show, she's gonna remember that forever.

• 1:55:17John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:55:19John Coogan?

  The, the PR team behind this must be paid so well. It's like, this clearly came from him.

• 1:55:25Jordi Hays?

  Let him cook.

• 1:55:26John Coogan?

  Let him cook.

• 1:55:27Jordi Hays?

  The blue sequin suit.

• 1:55:28John Coogan?

  I love it, that's great. That's fun. Anyway, uh, let's move on to some, uh, reports from Altimeter, uh, from Shiel Moat. Incredible early vintages from Altimeter VC funds. Uh, wonder how much of total returns are from Snowflake? They led the Series C at $260 million post in 2015. That stake was worth 4.4 billion at the IPO. Let's do a little size gong for Altimeter.

• 1:55:54Jordi Hays?

  Boom.

• 1:55:55John Coogan?

  Thank you. VC is a power law game and they crushed it on snow. Wild that Brad started with just $3 million in 2008. That's insane. Ran it up. Uh, 61% net IRR, $6.5 billion realized on $2.8 billion in cap, committed capital. They got a bunch of funds here. They're a lot of rippers and, uh, it's great stuff.

• 1:56:16Jordi Hays?

  Brad is just such a cool guy, too. I ran into him at my local coffee shop. He spends, uh, he's a server, so he spends, uh, some time in Malibu and, uh, You know, walked up to him, said, hi, we're in a handful of companies and the same companies. But um, just such a, such a cool, down-to-earth dude who has, has been on an absolute tear. He had a rough go with the hedge fund.

• 1:56:41John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:56:41Jordi Hays?

  In 2022, I think it was.

• 1:56:43John Coogan?

  When the market sold off by like 50%. Yeah, I think he was long like Meta and stuff.

• 1:56:48Jordi Hays?

  This is when people were like, SaaS is over.

• 1:56:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:51Jordi Hays?

  But uh, that's the game, right?

• 1:56:53John Coogan?

  And the interest rates went up and obviously if you're highly into tech, you're going to get burned.

• 1:56:57Jordi Hays?

  And I feel, and I feel like as, as journalists, like newcomer, started leaking.

• 1:57:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:05Jordi Hays?

  Performance, this is a great time if you're an investor to leak your screenshots. Oh, look at this, look at this screenshot.

• 1:57:12John Coogan?

  I'm actually going to.

• 1:57:14Jordi Hays?

  Oh, please don't share this. Please don't share that I have 61% net IRR.

• 1:57:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:19Jordi Hays?

  Billions of dollars.

• 1:57:22Jordi Hays?

  I would hate for that to get, to get loose.

• 1:57:26John Coogan?

  Anyway, let's move on to Nick, who posted screenshot of Jeff Bezos liking his post. You know, you gotta, you gotta do some engagement bait for the billionaires that are hanging out on X all day. Nick apparently posted, news, Amazon just dropped their first quantum computing chip codenamed Ocelot. We are so back. That could have been me posting that, but you know, Nick got to it first. He got the Bezos like, and I wanted to break this down a little bit. It's in the Journal today. Amazon unveils its first quantum computing chip. We heard this from Google a couple of months ago. Google in December said it developed a new chip called Willow. And that really, at that moment, the people that were watching quantum computing closely were like, okay, this is a breakthrough. We're, we're now starting to accelerate the development here.

• 1:58:10John Coogan?

  And then of course, earlier this week, we covered Satya Nadella on Dwar Kesh Patel announcing the Majorana chip. And they claimed a quantum computing breakthrough by creating a new state of matter. Now Amazon's in the game. Their cloud computing business on Thursday unveiled its first ever quantum computing chip, which claims marks, which it claims marks an important step in the development of useful, reliable quantum computers. That's what we want, folks. The chip dubbed Ocelot can lower the costs of reducing quantum computing errors by up to 90%. Amazon said, and there's, and the race is on. Everyone wants to build a practical quantum computer. The Amazon Ocelot chip is a prototype, not a full-blown quantum system,

• 1:58:54John Coogan?

  said Oscar Painter, head of quantum hardware for AWS.

• 1:58:57Jordi Hays?

  To be honest, John, I'm a little bit frustrated. We were prepping our quantum chip launch.

• 1:59:02John Coogan?

  We got kind of edged out by this.

• 1:59:03Jordi Hays?

  And Satya goes on to our cache.

• 1:59:05John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:59:06Jordi Hays?

  You know, even, even Google's working on one. They've got Willow. They're teasing that. We kind of got beat to the punch. But I want to let people know, we are still in the game.

• 1:59:16John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:59:16Jordi Hays?

  Ben has been working on it while we record. He's been working on quantum chip. He wasn't, he never actually had his wisdom teeth removed. He actually.

• 1:59:24John Coogan?

  He was grinding on it.

• 1:59:25Jordi Hays?

  He was actually grinding.

• 1:59:26John Coogan?

  Reducing quantum noise.

• 1:59:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, creating new states of matter.

• 1:59:30John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:59:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:31John Coogan?

  Yeah. And this is going to change podcasting. I mean, you start compressing our audio feed with a quantum computer. It's going to be super high fidelity, the best takes possible. Anyway, let's move on. Mike Taylor says, I may have underestimated the power of my product appearing in every post. RIP my calendar. 130 onboarding calls booked in 24 hours. Little 15-minute slots. The guy has slammed. His product's ripping and congratulations to him. Have you ever had a calendar booked like this on a single day?

• 2:00:03Jordi Hays?

  I have.

• 2:00:03John Coogan?

  For party round?

• 2:00:04Jordi Hays?

  I remember having this exact calendar set up. My son was born on a Saturday and my calendar looked like this on Monday. It was kind of brutal.

• 2:00:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:16Jordi Hays?

  I don't recommend that, but I'm sure Sam Altman's looked like that this week too. So sometimes you just got to do it, you know?

• 2:00:23John Coogan?

  Yeah. You gotta, you gotta be in a certain frame of mind to really deliver and bring the same pitch, you know, 50 times back to back to back to back, back, back, back, back, 15-minute segments. But you probably get really good at your pitch if you do that. And you get the reps in, you learn what works, what resonates, what doesn't, how to talk, how to let them talk.

• 2:00:42Jordi Hays?

  I've done this, you know, not, not in a, you know, sort of micromanaging way, but portfolio companies where they say like, oh, like we're not creating sales momentum. It's like, cool. Screen share your calendar. I'm like, you're talking with, you're talking with like two customers a day.

• 2:00:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, you should be talking to 20.

• 2:00:59Jordi Hays?

  You're never going to actually be a top decile company from a growth standpoint, unless you have some crazy product-led growth motion, unless you have this extreme volume because.

• 2:01:11Jordi Hays?

  It really is just, you know, should be obvious, but it's just a numbers game. If, if he has a 10% hit rate, but he's doing 20 calls a day. Great adding, he's going to be getting, you know, significant amount of traction from.

• 2:01:24John Coogan?

  Okay, six minutes left, we're going through some quick bangers. I will read them, you give me your take. Let's start with Morgan Barrett. Big night for hard tech in California and America at Valarv atomics. So proud of Isaiah Taylor. They had a big announcement last night, looked like something out of a sci fi movie. What was your take, Jordy?

• 2:01:45Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, this was absolutely wild. I didn't know what to think. We, we, we got invited, but.

• 2:01:51John Coogan?

  Couldn't make it.

• 2:01:51Jordi Hays?

  Couldn't make it. It's, it's seriously would be easier for us to get to Austin and that side of town right now.

• 2:01:58John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:01:59Jordi Hays?

  But what a show, an absolute showman.

• 2:02:03John Coogan?

  Yeah. I was pissed because I feel like he really upstaged us on the production value. Like we're the ones that bring in the Hollywood designers and create elaborate sets. And his set was way above.

• 2:02:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, people say, oh, you guys have such a nice set.

• 2:02:15John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:02:15Jordi Hays?

  And.

• 2:02:16John Coogan?

  Not anymore.

• 2:02:17Jordi Hays?

  They're saying he's making us look bad over here.

• 2:02:19John Coogan?

  Is the one that looks cool. So anyway, congrats to the team over there. Let's move on to a low tan banger from Rob David. He says, high yield hairy city when it comes to accidentally sending people money.

• 2:02:34John Coogan?

  And it's just a dunk and it's a dunk reel. And I don't know if you read this story, it's in the Journal of the Day. Citigroup almost made a $81 trillion mistake. They accidentally moved to transfer 81 trillion to a customer. Yes, trillion, a bank employee mistakenly entered this absurdly high figure last year while trying to manually input a transfer to a client's escrow account. Despite the fact.

• 2:02:56Jordi Hays?

  Have 81 trillion? That seems a little bit.

• 2:03:01John Coogan?

  Well, the annual GDP of the United States is around 25 trillion. So no, Jordy, I don't think.

• 2:03:07Jordi Hays?

  No, but I'm just like, yeah, what is like, just to put this in perspective.

• 2:03:13John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:03:13Jordi Hays?

  They, they, I'm assuming they have. What?

• 2:03:18John Coogan?

  They have billions, I'm sure, but not trillions.

• 2:03:20Jordi Hays?

  Hundreds of billions?

• 2:03:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, maybe. And so there's a couple of different examples of the fat finger transfer could happen is a lesson of technical difficulties.

• 2:03:28Jordi Hays?

  Would that go through? Would it appear on the customer's screen? Oh, you now have.

• 2:03:32John Coogan?

  I have seen that happen. I've had friends who have said like, oh, some bank error happened and for a moment I had, you know, a couple billion dollars in my account because they messed it up and then they reversed it, of course.

• 2:03:41Jordi Hays?

  So it's all fake?

• 2:03:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, all the money's fake.

• 2:03:43Jordi Hays?

  All the money's fake.

• 2:03:44John Coogan?

  The money's in the computer. I talked to a hedge fund guy who actually said like, there's money in the real world and there's money in the computer. He's like, and the computer money, like, that's the stuff that goes up and down or something like that. It was a really funny thing. Anyway, if you're trying to make 81 trillion dollars, you gotta start a hedge fund. You gotta go on public.com investing for those that take it seriously. They got multi-asset investing, industry-leading yields, and they're trusted by millions. And they're not going to send 81 trillion to anyone accidentally. They run a tight ship over there. Let's go to Niko over at Default. They announced a $4 million new funding round from ABC we covered here on the show.

• 2:04:25John Coogan?

  And they did this launch, which I know you'll have something to say about. They sent out 100 branded champagne bottles in custom Pelican cases. And Tom Osman says, solid sponsor for TBPN, TBH. What'd you think? We love champagne.

• 2:04:42Jordi Hays?

  On a long enough time horizon, we will work with every champagne company.

• 2:04:47John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:04:48Jordi Hays?

  You know, as long as it's truly champagne.

• 2:04:50John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:04:50Jordi Hays?

  From the champagne region of France.

• 2:04:53John Coogan?

  But this was a story, I actually heard this from Sam Blonde. He was at.

• 2:04:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, didn't they do this?

• 2:04:58John Coogan?

  He was at Zenefits and then Brax, I think. And he said that one of the things that worked really well was sending people champagne. He was in sales.

• 2:05:07Jordi Hays?

  Cause you're not giving them a beverage, you're giving them a moment.

• 2:05:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, a moment that they can take home and then they open it with their wife and they think about it and they're having fun or something.

• 2:05:14Jordi Hays?

  Or their team.

• 2:05:15John Coogan?

  Or their team. There's a lot of different ways.

• 2:05:16Jordi Hays?

  We never, we always offer champagne to Ben.

• 2:05:19John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. Anyway, we covered this earlier on the show and Mike Maples responded. We talked about his amazing BMW Z8. He says, "TPP enters. Glad you like the Z8. I actually fell in love with it when BMW showed the Z07 concept back in the late 90s. At the time, I lived in Austin and the local dealer wouldn't even take my deposit because they were sold out instantly. So I called around and found a dealership in Shreveport, Louisiana, willing to let me buy their allocation in 2001. I've had it ever since and it's probably the one car I'd never sell. Cheers." We gotta have him on the show. We gotta ask him what other cars he owns. What cars would he sell?

• 2:05:58Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 2:05:59John Coogan?

  You know, but fantastic car. And thanks for replying, Mike. We'd love to have you on the show.

• 2:06:03Jordi Hays?

  Great lore.

• 2:06:04John Coogan?

  Chat about cars. I've never driven the Z8, but I've heard really good things about it. Everyone talks.

• 2:06:09Jordi Hays?

  True classic.

• 2:06:10John Coogan?

  Yeah. So thanks for engaging, Mike. We'd love to have you chat about cars. You're welcome to come in, call in anytime. Let's go to Reva. She says, "Looking to hire a chief of staff."

• 2:06:19Jordi Hays?

  By the way, we have basically a minute till we're starting the

• 2:06:21John Coogan?

  Okay, well, we got some promoted posts. We got, we got Reva. She's hiring a chief of staff, trying the usual agencies recruiters, but struggling to find someone vibey. So if you're looking for a chief of staff, go work for Reva. Who else we got? We got some merch.

• 2:06:35Jordi Hays?

  Let's save some of these for Monday.

• 2:06:36John Coogan?

  Okay, yeah, we'll save some.

• 2:06:37Jordi Hays?

  John's got an incredible podcaster's high right now.

• 2:06:40John Coogan?

  I don't want to stop. I want to stop. Well, we got, we got one more. We got one more. We gotta do. We gotta do this. So it was Steve Jobs birthday on Monday and Bezzel replied to us and said, "He's a minimalist watch king." And in here, he's, he's wearing a beautiful Seiko. And I love that Bezzel, we text them all the time, "Can you clock this watch?" And that's why we wanted to run an ad for Bezzel today. Go to

• 2:07:06Jordi Hays?

  I know, I know Brandon Jacoby is listening right now and I think he's one of the biggest Steve Jobs fans that I know.

• 2:07:13John Coogan?

  Blazers.

• 2:07:14Jordi Hays?

  Brandon, I expect you to be in a Steve Jobs Seiko on Bezzel. Send us a screenshot and we'll feature it on the show.

• 2:07:20John Coogan?

  Fantastic. Go to Bezzel, shop over 22,500 luxury watches. They're fully authenticated in-house by Bezzel's team of experts.

• 2:07:30Jordi Hays?

  That's a great place to end the show. Actually, the real place to end the show is Sarah was watching from home and she commented in the chat and said, "You have 12 years." She's 28 right now. So she was referencing.

• 2:07:41John Coogan?

  Oh, to learn. Yeah, to learn the song.

• 2:07:45Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, great, great day of timeline today. It's fun to rip through timelines.

• 2:07:49John Coogan?

  It's a fun show.

• 2:07:50Jordi Hays?

  We're trying to do more timeline. There's a lot of news to cover, but we're trying to do, yeah, we want to make sure the pod is snackable. So thank you for tuning in with us on a Friday. We are going to jump over to the PMF or Die stream and grill Patty and Blake on

• 2:08:04John Coogan?

  What did they get done this week?

• 2:08:06Jordi Hays?

  What they got done this week. They've certainly been busy and we are excited to grill them. So anyways, have a great weekend, brothers. We will see you on Monday.

• 2:08:15John Coogan?

  See you on Monday. Thanks for, thanks for watching.