AI Sweatshops, Anthropic $3.5B Round, Tesla Takes Hit, Rivals Help Bybit, Mars Mission

(03:13) - AI Sweatshops (13:40) - Anthropic (33:12) - Tesla (34:25) - New EVs (46:27) - China in Africa (49:25) - Bybit Gets Help (56:20) - What Can We Send To Mars? (01:07:23) - NASA and Astroid Collision (01:08:31) - Claude Sennet 3.7 (01:14:03) - Default 2.0 Round (01:17:58) - Celebrrity Brands (01:25:58) - Timeline TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Eight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpn Wander - https://wander.com/tbpn Public - https://public.com AdQuick - https://adquick.com Bezel - https://getbezel.com Polymarket - https://polymarket.comFollow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://youtube.com/@technologybrotherspod?si=lpk53xTE9WBEcIjV

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  You're watching TBPN live from the shrine of shareholder value, the dojo of the dollar, the capital of capital. It is Tuesday, February 25th, 2025, and this show starts now. We got a great show for you guys today. We're talking about AI sweatshops. We're talking about the stock market crumbling. We're talking about anthropic raising billions of dollars and many more. We have tons of stories. I hope we can get to all of them because there's a ton here. But first up, Jordy, what's going on? How are you doing today?

• 0:31Jordi Hays?

  John, your intros get better every single time. It's incredible to watch. So I would be in the studio today, but I had a little bit of a fire drill this morning about 15 minutes before my eight sleep was scheduled to buzz me awake. I hear my son open his door like he he's not, he's not very gentle with the door in the morning. So he just always like slams it. He yells something and I like come out. I find him like he had made it to the kitchen. He's just kind of like stumbling around because it's dark and he like can barely speak like in a very concerning way. And he's just saying like, I swallowed, I swallowed a glow stick.

• 1:13Jordi Hays?

  I was just like, at this point, like I'm actually like very, I'm like very concerned because I like he can't talk at all. He's like clearly struggling to breathe and keeps saying that he's swallowed a glow stick. And so anyways, we're like freaking out. I'm not freaking out, but of course, my wife is and call, call 911, get them over and end up having to go in an ambulance because he's not like breathing properly. And we get all the way there. Fortunately, he didn't swallow a glow stick, but he had this thing called croup, which is like when a kid's esophagus like sort of swallows up or gets inflammation, which I had never heard of. And it's actually

• 1:57Jordi Hays?

  good to be aware of because yeah, I somehow had never heard the term or was aware of it. But the funniest part is by like, I think like eight or nine AM, we were ready to go home. They gave him like a steroid treatment or whatever, and he was back to breathing normally. And he was like genuinely like pissed that we couldn't ride in the ambulance back home.

• 2:22Jordi Hays?

  Like for him, like a kid, you wake up, you get to hang with your dad all morning. You get to ride an ambulance. There's firemen all around. It's like for him, it's like the best day ever. So.

• 2:34Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, but good to be aware of Croup for those parents and future parents. But there was a lot of news. There was a lot of news this morning, as there always is seemingly. So I'm excited to get into it.

• 2:46John Coogan?

  Yeah. So yesterday, Y Combinator announced a new startup, Optify, and they posted a video. They've been doing this thing, launch videos. Some of them have been, you know, amazing. Everyone's loved them. Some of them have been, we went over the maritime fusion company that people were saying, oh, hard tech like this will never work. And, you know, we kind of defended that one. This one was a little bit rougher. The production value wasn't quite at the level of the amazing CGI in that maritime fusion, fusion video. And the response was pretty negative almost immediately. I have a bunch of tactical ideas for how they could have done better.

• 3:29John Coogan?

  We'll go to a couple of posts here. Gabe, people are just memeing this already. Gabe says, absolutely sickening, revolting. Imagine how many sweatshop overseers will lose their jobs because of this. And then Peter comes in and kind of defends this. He says, the people dunking on this are idiots. This is literally scientific management that Frederick Winslow Taylor, Deming, and even Ford implemented more than 100 years ago, but with line form. And this is what makes Amazon warehouses and delivery trucks performant and what Foxconn uses to make your iPhones grow up. And that was my question was, I was, I was texting some people that work on factories and I was like, I get the pushback, like the aesthetics were very bad.

• 4:08John Coogan?

  Like the launch video was like not empathetic. It didn't tell like a great story, but like, let's be honest, like we, you, you really expect me to believe that China is ahead of America in manufacturing. We don't monitor the output of our factory workers in America and somehow we're going to win if we don't do that. Like it didn't, it didn't make sense. Like I couldn't really track all that. And so my take was I would have redone this video and instead focused on. Robotics instead of people and said, hey, look, there's going to be a lot of robotics in these factories. And we want to understand what's happening on the lines. And then instead of it being, so the video shows a negative scenario, someone who's underperforming.

• 4:52John Coogan?

  I would rather have it highlight someone who's a high performer.

• 4:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 4:55John Coogan?

  And because that's a more positive story. And then if you have to show something that's negative, show something that isn't, that is fixable. And so.

• 5:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, not somebody that's like losing their job.

• 5:06John Coogan?

  Exactly. Imagine there's a robot on like, it was like aisle 17 or something like work unit 17. They're underperforming. You use their software to check on it. Oh, turns out his wheels are squeaky or something. You go put some oil in the joint and he's back and he's happy and the robot's happy and everyone's happy. And it's this very like almost Pixar-esque moment. And that could have been really cool and positive. Instead, it really did just look like these guys on their laptops are now overseeing people that are working really hard in a factory. And then just like firing them. So what was your take on it? How do you think this went? How do you think they could have done better?

• 5:38Jordi Hays?

  Look, I think the, the product makes a lot of sense. There's clearly an opportunity for this. You can see the value. You can see the value also from my view for teams, right? If you're working on a factory floor, factory line, there, it requires really close coordination, even if you're just focused on a very specific lane. And so my big issues with it was the, the sort of, um, uh, poor acting. Like they're not, they're clearly not actors. They're founders. They shouldn't have been trying to like, make this sort of like skit like scenario to demo their product. It just set them up to be, uh, very easily dunked on. And then generally like, I would have focused it more around like, like this sort of empowering of like, how are we going to empower fat?

• 6:21Jordi Hays?

  Like teams at these factories to increase output and hit their goals at sort of like the factory level. Versus focusing in like, of course, like, I think what you're saying is right. Show three people. Performing adequately, two people overperforming and then show one or two people underperforming. And you know, like, there's so many ways to position that that are more like oriented around like, how do we win as a team versus like this sort of slave driver kind of like approach of saying like, you're underperforming, you've had a bad day, bad hour, bad month. And anyways, just, just the, the other thing is, it's very hard. You

• 7:04Jordi Hays?

  know, I looked it up and these guys are based in, in India. It's very hard to sort of understand how this might be received really well in India, yet you, you, you push it out to this like predominantly sort of American or international audience and it just falls flat. And to be honest, like the, the meme potential of this was just amazing. Like the shot of the guy like on the phone. And I posted, I posted the, I posted the, the George Bush one saying like, sir, work, you know, workspace 17 is underperforming. So anyways, I, a rough day, YC deleted it. I think they should have doubled down. I, it's not, again, they also

• 7:48Jordi Hays?

  could have used, there, there's so many things they could have done differently. They could have made it feel more futuristic, to be honest. In many ways, it, it felt like SaaS out of the, you know, it didn't necessarily, I'm, I'm sure that AI enables what they're doing, you know, to maybe build it with like a smaller team. But ultimately, there was just so many issues with it. And, and I, and I don't know, I think that you can hold two things, like, yes, they kind of set themselves up to get dunked on. But, you know, at the same time, there's like 20 things they could have done better.

• 8:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, like this has, this type of software has to exist in factories all over the world already. And like, I refuse to believe that there are major factories churning out iPhones that where they don't know what's happening in unit 17 or whatever.

• 8:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 8:36John Coogan?

  But yeah, should have been a lot more optimistic. It gets to this idea that, you know, we've been seeing in the news with Elon sending out those Doge emails. What did you get done this week? It's like the famous, like, his interaction with Parag Agarwal when he took over Twitter. What did you get done this week? That became, that became his like calling card. And I think that's been received with very mixed results. Like, some people love it. They're like, yeah, like, everyone in the government should be able to say what they did this week. But what I think would make it a little bit more empathetic of a message would be if Elon also answered that question. And Trump also answered that question because

• 9:11Jordi Hays?

  Totally true.

• 9:11John Coogan?

  People are doing that with, we were going to talk about Tesla later. People are like, oh, what did you get done this week as soon as the stock falls or whatever? And realistically, like Elon probably did a lot of stuff and that would be cool. And I think there's something about like leading from the front there that says that that just messages it differently. There is something about the American worker in the factory. Have you seen American Factory, that Obama documentary that went on Netflix?

• 9:35Jordi Hays?

  No, but I wonder if there's anything and what's that show that people brought up a couple of weeks ago about how it's made? Something along those lines.

• 9:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how it's made doesn't show any humans. It only shows the machinery typically.

• 9:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 9:47John Coogan?

  I mean, occasionally you'll see like the guy loads the machine or whatever. But it's not focused on the human stories of people working in the factory. American Factory was very different in the sense that, I think it was a glass manufacturing. They make like windshields and all sorts of different custom glass installations. And it was, and this particular manufacturing company was bought by a Chinese company. And so they kind of brought over the Chinese, you know, management processes. And in there, there are a bunch of really funny quotes about the Chinese managers coming in and saying like, in America, the American worker is like a donkey, like you, you, you need to pet it with the fur going this way. You can't pet it against the fur.

• 10:28John Coogan?

  And so like American workers respond to positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement. And, you know, I don't know, maybe that's our culture. I think, I think American culture is pretty great. Maybe that's a flaw, but I think you gotta play the game on the field, right?

• 10:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, go and I don't think Europeans would respond well to up optimize. I don't even know how to say the name of the of the Y C company. But, uh, but yeah, different, different continents, countries have like very distinct work cultures. And that's totally okay, right? A lot of the approach of this sort of like Manhattan finance culture would go over terrible in San Francisco. Right?

• 11:07John Coogan?

  Yep, yep.

• 11:07Jordi Hays?

  Uh, this idea, you know, in San Francisco, you're supposed to get a pat on the back. Maybe if you're doing like nine nine six, uh, oftentimes in New York, that's not even going to be like the bar. Right? You're going to be like looked down upon for doing that, like might lose your job over it. So these sort of workplace cultural differences are very real. And I just don't think that, uh, so this company, the annoying thing is I don't know how beneficial a Y C hard post launch is going to be for them.

• 11:38John Coogan?

  Whereas For fundraising, right?

• 11:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 11:41John Coogan?

  It's saying, hey, here's this demo, bunch of people can see it, even if they didn't make it to demo day, even if they got lost in the clutter of demo day, because there's a lot of companies now. And I think that's what those posts are for, maybe hiring a little bit, but certainly not customer focused.

• 11:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 11:57John Coogan?

  But yeah, it's got to go over well, but who knows? Uh, we'll see, we'll be able to track them and see if they make, uh, see if they raise a seed round.

• 12:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 12:04John Coogan?

  And I think that there's already a poly market out there for will they pivot away from this? Or will they change? But I don't know. I mean, getting attention can be turned into a lot of different positive things if you work hard. And speaking of getting attention, if you want to launch your company, why don't you launch an ad quick billboard? There's a fantastic, uh, post here, uh, Chris from ad quick reposted it. Out of homemade, out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising with ad quick. Go to adquick.com and there's a new billboard just dropped with, uh, Michael J. Fox for Calvin Klein and just an iconic image. And I'm sure that built the Calvin Klein brand wonderfully. And so sometimes simple aspirational is all you need.

• 12:49Jordi Hays?

  I just had an idea. We should take some of our favorite reviews that include ads in them.

• 12:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 12:55Jordi Hays?

  And run those as billboards.

• 12:57John Coogan?

  I love that.

• 12:58Jordi Hays?

  So we get some TV placement and then you get the actual ads under there. So we got to talk to.

• 13:04John Coogan?

  I mean, they do that for movies now, right? Like it'll be like, you know, five stars and they have like the one, they won the palm door. It's the best picture of the year. What the critics are saying, the critics say this, we need to run that for us. But it's what the critics are saying plus, you know, uh, you know, the ads that are, that our listeners have dumped into the reviews. Anyway, let's move on to anthropic. Claude is playing Pokemon on Twitch right now. I saw about a thousand people tuning in. Very fun. Guys wake up, says Nir. Claude's playing Pokemon on Twitch. It's happening. And so, uh.

• 13:37Jordi Hays?

  And so they did this and they simultaneously announced a new three and a half billion dollar fundraiser. Is that correct?

• 13:43John Coogan?

  No, I do. I don't think they have announced that. I think the fundraising round is leaking currently.

• 13:48Jordi Hays?

  Got it.

• 13:48John Coogan?

  And they are finalizing the round. We can get into that. Uh, this has actually been done before. There's been a Twitch Plays Pokemon where the computer would just read the chat and everyone would spam up, up, up, or AAA or BBB. And then whatever letter was spammed the most was basically won the vote. And then that would be the next move that the player made and it takes forever and you can get stuck in crazy scenarios. And I think when Twitch played Pokemon, there's this one level where if you, if you press down, you fall down this like crack and you have to basically start over this whole maze. And, and, and people would come in and troll and like, and so they spent like, I think days, maybe hours just trying to get through this.

• 14:29Jordi Hays?

  To play.

• 14:30John Coogan?

  It's like pretty easy to navigate if you're just a human player, but it's very chaotic. And so, and then people would troll and be like, oh, like, you know, instead of let's attack, let's just run away from this bad guy.

• 14:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Video games, video games by committee, probably not a good strategy.

• 14:45John Coogan?

  But people had a lot of fun. It's a lesson in democracy, right? And so now there are benchmarks around this.

• 14:50Jordi Hays?

  Are people having fun with democracy lately?

• 14:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly. And so Zeofon says, we got, yo, we got cool benches. And it's Claude 3 versus 3.5 versus 3.5 Sonnet new versus 3.7 Sonnet. And it says milestone reach number of actions. And it shows how does Pokemon, how do you progress through the game? I've actually been playing Pokemon with my son because of the mod retro chromatic. He actually finds it kind of boring. He's not that into it. He likes the other games. But it's pretty cool. The chromatic you can, you can get, I got one card that has like 100 games on it. And then you can just like play whatever you want. So he always wants to play something new.

• 15:27Jordi Hays?

  So great.

• 15:28John Coogan?

  But it's fun.

• 15:29Jordi Hays?

  Can you imagine if we had that? Can you imagine if we had that when we were kids? Like I distinctly remember you had your Game Boy.

• 15:34John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 15:35Jordi Hays?

  Which you'd be cruising around with. And then I would have like a DOP kit, like shaved kit that just had a bunch of, yeah, a bunch of cartridges.

• 15:41John Coogan?

  Yeah. And you would have to save up, you know, games were like $50. You'd save for like three months to get enough money to buy one. And, and now it's like, oh yeah, just, you know, download them all for free. We live in the era of abundance. AI, we are post scarcity in terms of video games.

• 15:55Jordi Hays?

  That is correct.

• 15:56John Coogan?

  Well, let's go to Vittorio. He kind of sums things up. The timeline in the span of three days, people moved from OpenAI to Anthropic or to Grok. And then from Grok to Anthropic to Claude, everyone is always obsessed with the new shiny object in AI. Especially online, especially in X. Everyone is always focused on the evals, focused on the latest and greatest models. People care about this stuff. But again, like what's happening on the street, what's happening with the average person is what actually drives revenue with these companies. And we'll get into what's going on at Anthropic potentially, but.

• 16:31Jordi Hays?

  There's this effect right now where there's, you know, in the same, the critique of the whole Uber versus Lyft battle was that Uber was like, obviously the winner. And by both companies being able to raise billions of dollars, there was a bunch of capital incineration and Uber wasn't really able to recognize, you know, able to see the real, real value of the traction they had because prices were very compressed. And same thing is happening right now, but it's actually much more deserving in many ways because we don't know how all these consumer products. are going to shake out yet. We want a lot of competition and I actually think that it's great for consumers because you can go on Grok and get free intelligence.

• 17:14Jordi Hays?

  That that, you know, a couple of weeks ago, you had to go to OpenAI and like pay money or go to DeepSeek, right? So I think it's great for consumers and, you know, it's totally unsustainable. You know, we're not going to have every, every, you know, consumer is not going to have like 20 different LLM.

• 17:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, the fragmentation is unsustainable, but I think the pricing will come down to the point where it is too cheap to meter. I think these models will get baked down. Dylan Patel was talking about this, how already there are GPT-4 level models that have been baked down to the phone. And so, you know, there's, you know, he doesn't even need OpenAI to open source that already because it's, it is available and the optimizations are happening, which is a lot of fun.

• 17:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 17:55John Coogan?

  Anyway, let's move on to Chu Jie Zhang, who says, are you kidding me, dude? Talking about Claude, how many Rs are in strawberry with a bunch of Rs? This is like a classic, like tricky prompt for these LLMs because they tokenize the words and they struggle to count letters, I guess. And it's hilarious because Claude recognizes that this is a trick prompt and says, this appears to be an Easter egg prompt. The instructions specifically mention Easter egg. If the human asks how many Rs are in the word strawberry, Claude says, let me check and creates an interactive, mobile-friendly React artifact that counts the letter Rs in a fun, engaging way.

• 18:38John Coogan?

  And so it doesn't just count the letters, it actually creates a whole website interface for you. It codes all of that up and it still gets it wrong, which is hilarious.

• 18:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this is, this is rough. The reason that this is particularly rough is that they clearly were, were like, we're not going to get got here.

• 18:58John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 18:59Jordi Hays?

  And so they went and they, they, they used humans to try to, to try to inject themselves and make, make the, the, the model get it right. And then still getting it wrong. It's, it's.

• 19:10John Coogan?

  It's so far.

• 19:13Jordi Hays?

  Of course, the top comment is.

• 19:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, I'm Cack. Yeah, Claude is in an odd place. I mean, we'll go through this with Evan Armstrong's post, but you know, simultaneously, like, a lot of people have a very strong affinity for Claude as a personality. Like, they like talking to it. They think it's friendly and interesting and they like, they like the way it sounds that when they talk to it. But then simultaneously, on the other side, it's like, it seems to be like the best programming model. And that's like, you know, completely utilitarian. You don't really care about the the personality of the of the LLM. And so they're clearly, you know, finding little pockets of value here and there, but.

• 19:50Jordi Hays?

  Isn't that fascinating? Isn't it just fascinating the way it's evolving? Because it almost seems like it's, it sort of feels like it's not fully in their control. Like, that's like the, like, like, there's a feeling of like, yeah, Anthropic was like, hey, we want our model to be, like, you can imagine them being very intentional about, we want our model to be sort of, you know, more fun, friendly, like, more of like a companion, you know, you can develop like a relationship with it, whatever. But then, do they have an off switch for that? Is there a way to make it go like, you know, sort of Claude hardcore, where you just want to have this sort of like, you know, more simplified, linear, just direct relationship with the LLM?

• 20:34Jordi Hays?

  Because I haven't, I haven't experienced that as a user.

• 20:37John Coogan?

  I mean, there's tons of different ways.

• 20:38Jordi Hays?

  And maybe you could prompt engineer it to.

• 20:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, prompt engineering is one way. There's post-training. Even the data that goes into the pre-training, a lot of the reason that the models, the early models were like, quote unquote, woke, was because they were trained more on Reddit and they kind of excluded 4chan. And so you have like a more left-wing perspective. And then just the internet broadly leans younger and leans more left-wing. And so you wind up with creating the average of that and get kind of more of a left-wing viewpoint. And then, obviously, XAI has kind of. It's kind of gone the other direction with mixed results, honestly, because it is a little bit of like you're trying to, you know, tame a wild dragon or something and like you don't really have fine grain control. It's not just the slider.

• 21:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 21:19John Coogan?

  There's a lot that goes into actually, you know, evaluating these models and creating something that is really.

• 21:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and it makes, one thing, one, one thing that seems obvious about where we're headed with all of these apps is that you will be able to have like, maybe like a four quadrant sort of graphic where you can drag it up. It's like, do you want it to be more short and direct versus, you know, because think about it, you know, uh, when, when you're working with people in a professional environment, which a lot of these people, you know, most, a lot of users are using them, uh, these products professionally. You, sometimes you want somebody who's just super direct, like doesn't want to be your best friend, just wants to do the work and, you know, get it done. And then sometimes you want somebody to just talk to, right?

• 22:01John Coogan?

  Yeah, you can actually do that in OpenAI, in the ChatGPT app. There's a, uh, basically like a prompt that is like a permanent prompt where you can type in, yeah, you can fill in a ton of text. You can say all sorts of things and people kind of trade like these, oh, this is like the best prompt. You got to tell it to do all these different things. And then the model updates and you kind of don't need to do that anymore. But, uh, um, you can actually bake in, you know, those preferences and then it'll just come out, come through on every single, uh, prompt that you ask. Let's go to Evan Armstrong. He says, Anthropic is in a tough spot. OpenAI has 50x the brand and customer distribution. XAI has this platform captured. Google has an infinite money glitch going for them. How can they win good old fashioned marketing?

• 22:44John Coogan?

  They need to counter position, make everything less creepy than the OpenAI robot god energy. This recent launch is a perfect example of their more human strategy. Handheld shot versus the creepy steady cam that makes everything feel like a webinar, a nice warm yellow, orange color correction on the vids. Its videos will go with fun jazz or lofi beats that fills out the demos. No thinking about how the tools will take your job, lol. Intros that humanize the presenters with no C-suite trumpeting accomplishments, just normal sounding team members. Most importantly, the models feel more soulful and are trained to have a softer, more human-like response to user queries. Yeah. So finding a little pocket of differentiation is really, is really, really key. I was laughing about, you know, Google has this infinite money glitch.

• 23:27John Coogan?

  I was looking up, uh, Apple. Apple has returned.

• 23:32John Coogan?

  They are, they've returned $928 billion to shareholders over the last 12 years or something like that. And they have, I think, 65 billion on their balance sheet. So they basically have generated a trillion dollars in cash for their shareholders. And you think about like, what does a trillion dollars get you in the AI race? Like, it's like, clearly the best and like, well beyond anything else. But they just didn't go down that fork in the tech tree. And so they just didn't pursue that. And, and I think the strategy will honestly probably work out because they're just going to act as the, as the portal and take a toll on everything that happens. And, and they're happy with that. And they haven't had to duke it out in this, in

• 24:14John Coogan?

  this game and put all that capital at risk instead they've been able to return it to shareholders. But it is, but it is very interesting. And these models are expensive. And that's why Anthropic is finalizing a $3.5 billion funding round. And so the company behind Claude Chatbot is valued at 61.5 billion after overcoming investor fear sparked by the success of China's DeepSeek. Investors are eager to back the promising artificial intelligence companies despite their disruptive arrival of DeepSeek. They initially set out to raise 2 billion, but they were able to increase that amount during talks with investors. Anthropic, such a young company founded in 2021 by former OpenAI employees, startup was previously valued at 18 billion and considered one of the few AI startups with enough talent and funding.

• 24:59Jordi Hays?

  And to give, to give SBF some credit, I believe they, I believe they invest, they definitely invested sub $10 billion. And that was from the FTX, FTX balance sheet investment, which is wild.

• 25:12John Coogan?

  Yeah. And so I, I think that's part of what will wind up making the FTX depositors whole. Like, if you lost money in FTX, you now have a stake on a small slice of Anthropic. And if they can liquidate that at some point, that's a really good return. I don't know exactly how much money is missing or how the math works out. But it is, it is one of those weird narrative violations. Yeah, it was highly illiquid, but you know, potentially profitable. So who's in this round? It's Lightspeed Venture Partners, General Catalyst Bessemer, Abu Dhabi, MGX is also in talks to participate. And I believe MGX was going into Stargate 2. Is that right? Everyone's in everything. Everyone needs a slice of everything.

• 25:54Jordi Hays?

  Everybody's getting conflicted.

• 25:56John Coogan?

  Getting conflicted.

• 25:57Jordi Hays?

  There's no worse, there's no worse feeling for a VC than having their, you know, a massive market map appear and you're not conflicted out of it. Yeah, that means you missed the boat.

• 26:09John Coogan?

  For sure. Anthropic Trails, market leader, OpenAI, and among consumer users, although its Claude chatbot has become popular among programmers and business clients, their annualized revenue recently hit $1.2 billion. And this is what's so funny. It's like, we're in this crazy AI bubble, but you just compare it to the dot com boom. And yes, everything could go really south and a lot of these companies couldn't generate money. But when we look back, we're like, okay, yeah, it was trading at 60x revenue. That's still better than 10,000 times revenue, which is like what was going on in the dot com boom. Like, these companies are generating real money. And who knows where it'll, you know, pencil out once, you know, the models

• 26:52John Coogan?

  are fully distributed, or if they really stagnate, they could be, they could become very cheap and that revenue could decline. But so far, they're doing pretty well. It's losing money, and they'll use cash from the latest funding to support their efforts to train more powerful AI models. OpenAI, for comparison, in the October funding round, said that it expected to generate $3.7 billion in revenue, so about four times the size. And of course, the valuation's about four times as well, or three times the size. Some Silicon Valley investors have been worried about the prospects of companies such as Anthropic since DeepSeek released a new model that rivals the most powerful in the US, but was made at a fraction of the cost and is free to use. And there's more information on that.

• 27:36John Coogan?

  So yeah, interesting to see. Everyone's piling in. Everyone's got to get a bet. If you're not in a foundation model company and you're a VC, what are you doing?

• 27:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we had seen a, we had seen a, an LP update recently, of which there, I'm sure there are many like this. It basically was like, yeah, I haven't, not doing much AI stuff yet, but I'd like to at some point. Like, bro, bro.

• 28:01Jordi Hays?

  You're probably not actually late, but you, you should have been paying attention.

• 28:04John Coogan?

  Well, it depends on what happens tomorrow. Nvidia is doing earnings tomorrow after the market closes. And that will be something everyone is watching.

• 28:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 28:14John Coogan?

  Very, very close.

• 28:15Jordi Hays?

  We need to time it, we need to time it so that we're actually streaming while it's happening.

• 28:19John Coogan?

  Yeah. It'll be after market close, but we'll, we'll figure it out. We'll, we'll find a way to cover it. Anyway, so you raised $3.5 billion. That's a lot of money going out the door. How are you going to track it, Jordy?

• 28:32Jordi Hays?

  Great question. Before we get into the most important section of this piece, the, the other thing that was interesting is people have, the last thing I would say on this, people had sort of memed, does Anthropic buy Cursor? Does Cursor buy Anthropic? Right? Being, being one of their most important enterprise customers, at least from a growth standpoint and a customer love standpoint. And, you know, anyway, so, so I wouldn't, you know, overall, the thing that was interesting out of this, they also launched a code editor. That's sort of, I think it's called Claude Code, fitting name. And so it'll be interesting to see, do they end up, you know, it's not, you know, directly competitive yet, but you can imagine all of these things converging

• 29:16Jordi Hays?

  in the same direction. And yeah, I'm excited to see that play out.

• 29:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, they also have a, a model that's trained to live in your command line. And so it can interact with your computer at a very low level, which makes a ton of sense. And just gives it a lot more ability to interact everywhere. It's been fascinating watching the, the AI companies figure out different ways to plug in. The Mac app for ChatGPT uses the assisted device interface to basically automatically integrate with every single code editor, regardless of whether or not they want them integrated, because it's just

• 29:49Jordi Hays?

  Crazy.

• 29:50John Coogan?

  sucking out the text and then injecting your text like it's any other screen reader. So a bunch of different ways to kind of plant these models in. I used Operator yesterday. For the first time, really, looking for some office space and it was rough. Like it was, it kept coming back to me to like do CAPTCHOS and stuff because it knows, hey, this is an AI that's going to this website. And it wasn't

• 30:13Jordi Hays?

  So you just become a

• 30:14John Coogan?

  Fun part. Yeah, exactly.

• 30:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. There's a, there's a dark future where humans like primary work output is just filling out ever increasingly difficult CAPTCHOS. And that's the only time that you get hit up throughout the day is like getting it, like somebody getting a DoorDash notification, like, oh, new CAPTCH, new CAPTCH, and then you got like 40 of these things working for you at once. And it's just like every minute, you're just sitting there, you know, addicted to your phone, but it's just CAPTCHOS.

• 30:39John Coogan?

  Brutal. I hope we can avoid that. That's terrible. Anyway, you got 3.5 billion in the bank. You want to track it? How are you going to do it?

• 30:47Jordi Hays?

  Ramp.

• 30:47John Coogan?

  Baby, let's go. Uh, time is money. Save both easy to use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. Go to ramp.com to sign up. Uh, and we have a post from, uh, a clip of Eric Gleiman, the CEO of Ramp. And, uh, he was on a podcast or an interview and, uh, there's a little breakdown of what he said. He said, when you put high agency people together, they ship faster. Uh, at one crucial point, a third of Ramp's team, 50 to 70 people were ex-founders. That's a crazy stat.

• 31:19Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 31:19John Coogan?

  Eric explains, these people understand that they, that the default state of a company is it doesn't work. So they don't wait for permission or perfect conditions and they find out ways to make this happen. They've experienced firsthand how companies collapse without relentless effort. So they end up being independent and stubborn on what should be done to move things faster. But it also comes with an acceptance cost that these people might go on to start their own companies. And I think that's great. If you're looking for a job, highly recommend starting a company, figuring out, building something, building your portfolio. Uh, don't just hang out in the unemployment zone. Build something, put yourself in the cage, do a PMF or die challenge, try and build something. And then worst case, you know, you, you, you find a soft landing somewhere as a job. You get a job off.

• 32:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 32:03John Coogan?

  Cause you, cause you did all of the things and you, and you learned the 360 view of building something.

• 32:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And I, I gave some advice to To a listener yesterday who is has been a founder before knows that he wants to build his career as a as an entrepreneur. And I give him the advice of sometimes it's great to try to use pattern matching to your advantage. And by going and working at a company, even if you were a founder and then you go to work at a company like Ramp. Your your ease of raising additional capital from that point on, you know, will will will increase tremendously, right? Because VCs are just sort of trained at this point. Hey, this person went and they worked at Ramp for two years.

• 32:45Jordi Hays?

  They got really deep on this one area of the business and now they're starting this sort of adjacent business, solving problems that that Ramp customers, you know, experienced or or rampant self experienced. And so I think that founder people, you know, people that have that sort of founder mentality, they just want, they're just obsessed with company building. Still should use like stints at great companies to sort of accelerate their careers.

• 33:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, 100%. Well, let's move on to Tesla.

• 33:15John Coogan?

  Having a rough month, down 23% in the last month and people are now graffitiing superchargers.

• 33:23Jordi Hays?

  I saw.

• 33:23John Coogan?

  With the swastikas, which is aggressive and Solana had a great, Mike Solana had a great post about like both Nazis and people that hate Nazis seem to both love, but like drawing swastikas everywhere. Very odd, very weird.

• 33:37Jordi Hays?

  I saw interesting.

• 33:43Jordi Hays?

  Wild because I just don't understand like who is feels the call to go and graffiti something like that. I would say that, you know, the the the thing that we want to focus in on here is like what's actually happening to the. The stock because Jack Rains posted earlier and he said that basically the 20, what did he say? If you bought Tesla in 2021, you basically fully round tripped. So his joke was like, yeah, 10 K is 10 K. So yeah, it's a store of value.

• 34:20John Coogan?

  It's a pop to over a trillion and now it's back at a trillion and it kind of went up and down and up and down. But I want to know more about what's driving the market. You had a big question about are people moving to other EVs? And there's an interesting article in the, first off, there's an interesting car that launched the Li Auto Mega MPV. Have you seen this thing? So it's a minivan, but it looks like, you know, it has like, like cushy seats that recline. It has all of the, all the niceties that these Chinese EVs tend to have. And so stunning electric minivan from Li Auto. The mega MPV dubbed the highway bullet train due to its shape and ability to travel 311 miles in a 12 minute charge.

• 35:03John Coogan?

  While Musk's waste every second on toxic identity politics, the Chinese are crushing Tesla in innovation. Unclear if that's what's actually going on. We'll see how this actually performs on the road, but they are moving quickly and, and it's putting pressure on Porsche as well. There was an article in the New York Times, why Porsche is no longer a premium sports car in China. That I thought we might want to read through. After decades of dominating China's market for high performance cars with precision engineering, German automakers are losing out to Chinese rivals that have shifted the definition of a high end car to one that is electric, smart and affordable. Many new Chinese vehicles resemble their German rivals like the wildly popular Xiaomi SU7,

• 35:43John Coogan?

  which is a phone company. Remember Xiaomi makes phones and now they make cars and this mimics Porsche's Taycan. The SU7 rivals the Taycan in power and braking, but it also includes integrated artificial intelligence that can, for instance, help with parking and greet drivers with their favorite song, the cherry on top. It sells for roughly half the price of a Taycan.

• 36:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. The problem is, you know, a lot of the wow factor elements of a Tesla.

• 36:08John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 36:08Jordi Hays?

  Early on, we're the software side and the issue is like, software is just so much easier to copy. So like, not only do the Chinese are like the best in the world at manufacturing today.

• 36:19John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 36:19Jordi Hays?

  Uh, at least like, you know, mass market consumer products. They also can very quickly emulate and it's like, oh, Tesla makes a fart sound. If you hit the right button, we can do that, but we'll like play your favorite song when you come in.

• 36:33John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 36:34Jordi Hays?

  That ability to sort of spark uh joy or have some fun with with the user is just so much easier to copy. And not a durable note.

• 36:44John Coogan?

  Yeah. A big driver here is that a lot of the Chinese population is buying cars for the first time. And so they're not like, oh, well, I had a I had a poster of a Carrera GT on my wall. And then, yeah, I rented a, you know, a Cayman and I know what, you know, a flat six sounds like. And so I really want a naturally aspirated V eight in my next car. They're just like, one car, please. And what is a car? Oh, it's electric now. Great. Like, that's fine. Like, this is the best car. Great.

• 37:16Jordi Hays?

  And so the other thing that happened is

• 37:18John Coogan?

  Cars that they're working.

• 37:19Jordi Hays?

  Is as Chinese consumer products and brands like started to work internationally. I do think that the Chinese consumer started to say Chinese products are cool now. It's a small thing of like, oh, you're using TikTok overseas? Cool. Oh, you're using DJI overseas?

• 37:35John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 37:35Jordi Hays?

  Okay, why aren't we just buying our own brands?

• 37:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:39Jordi Hays?

  Like, these are, I'm sure some of these brands are coveted and cool in the Chinese market, even though as American consumers, like, it means nothing, like the SU7 or whatever. To me, that sounds like I don't want to knock off Macan.

• 37:53John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 37:53Jordi Hays?

  But but to them, they're like, I that that might be like a super desirable vehicle.

• 37:58John Coogan?

  Yeah, so the SU7 sold 100,000 cars last year and Porsche has been one of the hardest hit. They were, they reported that last month, its deliveries in China plunged 28% in 2024. Although Porsche's sales were up in every other region around the world, the decline in China was significant enough to pull down global, global deliveries for the year. For years, German automakers relied on the Chinese market to make up for weaker demand elsewhere, leading them to ignore deeper, deeper structural issues at home. Chief among them was the reluctance to adopt the technology that has become, that has come to define driving in China, electric vehicles equipped with sophisticated software and increasingly artificial intelligence.

• 38:40John Coogan?

  The German and, but also the American and Japanese, Korean established Western manufacturers have greatly underestimated the development dynamics of the Chinese manufacturers, namely the importance of electromobility and software-defined vehicles. And so, yeah, China is building, you know, their grid from scratch. They're building their roads from scratch, so they're going to have a fresh start, green field opportunity. They can build their cities and roads for electric vehicles to put less stress on the grid and actually.

• 39:07Jordi Hays?

  They can probably, they can probably get more access to transformers to actually, because they're, they're making a lot of them.

• 39:15John Coogan?

  Yep, yep. And, uh, yeah, and, and fundamentally, people, uh, are, are just fine with these electric cars. The, the Chinese are also doing something interesting where there's a few electric cars that they're kind of a reverse hybrid. So instead of it being a, a gas-powered engine with an electric motor that gives it a little extra boost or makes the, uh, the, the range a little bit further or just improves the gas mileage, it's actually essentially an electric car, but with a really small petrol engine or gasoline engine that can then just charge the battery. And that's all it does. And so you'll see these cars where it's, you know, a 300-mile battery charged, but then you get another 300 miles if you fill the gas tank.

• 39:59John Coogan?

  And so all of a sudden your range is like 600 miles and you can stop at a gas station if you have range anxiety. So they've completely solved that problem of, uh, like, oh, if I get an electric car, I can't go on the road trip. But now you can because you just fill back up, but you're still getting all the benefits of the electric powertrain and all that and all the reliability and stuff. So

• 40:20Jordi Hays?

  It's interesting to see though.

• 40:21John Coogan?

  It hasn't happened in America because people have either been all in on EV. It's got to be EV. Tesla doesn't touch internal combustion engines or, you know, oh, we wouldn't put any electrical components in this. Hybrids are bad. We need to be naturally aspirated V8s all the way. China has not been as dogmatic about that.

• 40:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Yeah. The, it's interesting to see just Chinese, they're not being, they're not being necessarily super targeted with the international products that they're slowing down on purchasing, right? We saw Karen Group's sales were down 30% year over year. And we're, you know, we're seeing that broadly in luxury goods. And then the same thing, they're not in the iPhone sales too, right? So it's, it's more you sort of utilitarian products like phones and cars and then also luxury goods. So and, and this is probably, you know, there's probably a lot under the surface in terms of the CCP and the Chinese government broadly saying, hey, we need to switch from an exporter. If, if the world's sort of going through

• 41:20Jordi Hays?

  this period of deglobalization, we need to switch from an export based economy, which they'll continue to be to some degree, but we also need to be consuming the products that we produce internally and having more of this sort of consumption based economy because they can't be reliant on growing foreign exports to the same degree or having, you know, people move into cities, which also drives that consumption. So all of this will be interesting to play out. I hate, I've been, I went, the last time I was at a mall, I went by, there was, there was one of these Chinese EV manufacturers that was like set up there. They had like a, you know, two cars in a box and they were sort of marketing

• 41:58Jordi Hays?

  them. And I, I hope these products don't catch on. One, for our sort of local manufacturers. And then two, they're just like ugly and like cheap in my opinion. And I just don't want to see them on the road. The other thing.

• 42:12John Coogan?

  I mean, there's already crazy tariffs. So most of these cars are not viable to sell in the United States. And I think there's tons of pressure. And then of course Elon being so close with Trump. Like, there's gonna be tons of pressure against this trend. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't count on any of these products really going, you know.

• 42:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but one, one thing that's interesting is, so Zara in the chat mentioned, he says the US will probably cut EV subsidies soon, which is scaring investors, which, which we can see in this, in the stock price. But the interesting thing with the Elon Trump dynamic is that you can imagine Trump would, would ignoring the Elon relationship would just say, why are these EV companies getting all these subsidies? Like, why are we paying, you know, why are we subsidizing the cost of these for, you know, let them compete on the free market, right? But then he's boys with Trump and, or sorry, he's boys with Elon. And like, that would be super damaging to Tesla. And so it's an interesting, I'm interested to see how that dynamic.

• 43:08John Coogan?

  There's another interesting cultural thing, kind of going back to like the different factory worker, you know, philosophies. The, there's the, the Han, I forget what, what company this is, but it's a Chinese sedan, electric sedan called the Han. And, and they have different trim levels. And in America, you want a bigger number. Everything's bigger is better in America. Everything's bigger in Texas. You want a bigger engine. So, you know, something like a BMW, you might get a 328i, 335i, same thing with Mercedes E350 or, you know, what are the 6.3 liter V8s and the AMGs? And so you want a higher number. You want a bigger number, pretty, pretty much always. But they don't have that culture

• 43:51John Coogan?

  in China. And so the trim levels are just the zero to 60 time. And so you can buy like the Han 3.6, the Han 2.8.

• 44:00Jordi Hays?

  That's actually a better, I love that system.

• 44:02John Coogan?

  Yeah. And so you're driving behind a car and you're just like, oh, the 2.5, that goes zero to 60 in 2.5 seconds, which is hilarious.

• 44:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. When we're, when we're driving in the work tomorrow, in the morning and wondering who we should drag race. Now it's a much easier way to figure that out.

• 44:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly. I just thought it was hilarious culturally, but it really goes to the fact that there are no priors, there's no standards. So it's just like, yeah, do whatever.

• 44:24Jordi Hays?

  In a sort of, sort of adjacent to this, in, in the, in the UAE, they, people, the license plates, you have to like buy them and there's like a secondary market for them. And so the most coveted license plates are, are these like, like the king will have like one. And then if you see somebody with like seven, like you know they're a big dog and something like they're probably a part of the royal family or, or, you know, you know.

• 44:50John Coogan?

  Everyone has a million dollar car. Like that's not special. You need to add a couple of million dollars in like license plate.

• 44:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they'll trade, they'll trade for $20 million just for the plate because if you have more money than you know what to do with, you might as well find out one more way to signal to the other people on the road.

• 45:08John Coogan?

  Well, if you're going to Dubai or you're going to spend some time doing laps at the Nürburgring, where are you staying, Jordy?

• 45:15Jordi Hays?

  I'm staying at a Wander.

• 45:17John Coogan?

  Let's go. Find your happy place. Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel-grade amenities, dreamy beds, top-tier cleaning, and 24/7 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better. And I didn't know this. We, we have a post here. Wander has 10-minute home tour videos on all the different properties. And you can see this one's 13 minutes. It has a full introduction, drone tours, cinematic shots. And so before you make a decision to click purchase, you can really get to know the property. And it's a lot harder to fake it with a couple of wide-angle photos when you're moving around with a, with a video camera.

• 45:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the classic, I, when we were evacuating from the fires, I was dealing with like Airbnb drama. I wanted to stay at a Wander, but you know, some of these homes are so coveted, they get booked out for too long. And I ended up booking two places that just were completely disingenuous with how they represented the property. And so that's like a pretty common experience at Airbnb. You see these amazing, you know, pictures and then you show up, but you can't fake a 13-minute video around the, around the, the property. So.

• 46:27John Coogan?

  So highly recommend it. Let's stay on China. Go to Bridgette Harris, my colleague over at Founder's Fund. She says, by the way, China is lending money to African nations for infrastructure project like ports and energy, et cetera, via this infrastructure, making them more dependent so they can ship in Chinese goods more easily. And then if the loans are defaulted, they take on the land.

• 46:52John Coogan?

  Very rough. And so she says, yes, guys, it's not new, but still an interesting dynamic slash relevant. And yeah, this is the Belt and Road policy and it is crazy and very controversial and and has cost them a lot of money, but has earned them a lot of allies across the world. It's interesting. I was working-

• 47:09Jordi Hays?

  Sort of reluctant allies.

• 47:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, I was working at a different venture fund in in college and was looking through the cable gate leaks to hear what the embassies in different countries were saying about doing business there if you're an American. And overwhelmingly, in some of these African countries, the the sentiment was that you basically had two choices. You could do business with American companies or Chinese companies. But if you did business with the Chinese companies, they had the full backing of the CCP. And so if something happened where that company kind of stiffed you, you could go to the Chinese government and say, hey, make me whole. But you couldn't do that in an American country and or American company. And that was, there's, there were a few oil spills that happened and American companies,

• 47:55John Coogan?

  there was, you know, they sued the company and they try and get the money from the company. But if the company is like bankrupt or something, there's really no more money to, you know, pay. Whereas China was kind of like, hey, we're backing up everything that we do in these countries. So yeah, lots of pressure. It'll be interesting. I don't think we're going to see an American Belt and Road initiative anytime soon.

• 48:15Jordi Hays?

  Well, the-

• 48:16John Coogan?

  It's very expensive. But some of the stuff that's happening in Panama, Greenland, like this is all related, right?

• 48:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, the, the, the history of the US empire is basically one long Belt and Road initiative, just wasn't branded in the same way. But this is, this is one of those things where we like it when our team does it. But when, when our adversary goes and does it and-

• 48:38John Coogan?

  Boo.

• 48:39Jordi Hays?

  We like to boo.

• 48:40John Coogan?

  Boo.

• 48:41Jordi Hays?

  Yuck. Why, how could they?

• 48:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:44Jordi Hays?

  Meanwhile, America, we have military bases, you know.

• 48:46John Coogan?

  Everywhere. And we're sending money all over the globe for all sorts of reasons.

• 48:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so.

• 48:51John Coogan?

  But some of that money, high ROI, people, people like to say, oh, we shouldn't spend a dime abroad.

• 48:56Jordi Hays?

  With Ukraine.

• 48:57John Coogan?

  I don't know about that.

• 48:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, with Ukraine, we're saying, you're giving us your mineral rights for, you're basically like, our loans were backed by your mineral rights.

• 49:06John Coogan?

  Sometimes you gotta put your buddies on full scholarship and just help them.

• 49:10Jordi Hays?

  Full scally.

• 49:10John Coogan?

  Full scally, when they're, when they're down, you, you spot them a couple bucks and then maybe they help you out in the future. It's one hand washes the other. This is geopolitics. Anyway, if you don't know Bridget, she's a fantastic crypto investor at Founder's Fund. And let's move on to another crypto story, Bybit, which we mentioned earlier, they were hacked and they are now taking loans from rivals after a record crypto hat hack. Rival crypto exchanges are stepping in to shore up the finances of the world's third biggest exchange, Bybit. I had no idea that it was this big. It must be Coinbase, then By, By Nance, then Bybit. After hackers stole $1.4 billion from the firm last week, in doing so, the crypto industry is hoping to calm investor worries

• 49:53John Coogan?

  that the hack could lead to another FTX-like implosion. Several exchanges, including Bitget and Mexc, have made emergency loans to Bybit to replenish tokens lost in the hack. So Bybit's customers can withdraw funds without a problem. The loans are unusual, given how quickly and easily they were arranged, without prolonged due diligence and with few strings attached. And I think it actually makes sense because, you know, this was not, I mean, obviously they shouldn't have gotten hacked, but it's not, Bybit was stealing the money, right? It wasn't fraud. It, it seems like it was like a mistake. And so, you know, the company management is probably more respected by other people in the industry and they're able to justify.

• 50:34Jordi Hays?

  They're able to do, they're able to say like, what would, what would we want our competitors to do in this situation? And this is one of those things, if, if a $1.4 billion hole emerges in a crypto exchange, it is terrible for the industry. I mean, people were talking about this. People were talking about this last week. They were like, oh, this is actually bullish because Bybit has to buy back all the ETH, which would create, you know, you know, pressure, upward pressure on the price.

• 51:04John Coogan?

  People will cope in some funny ways.

• 51:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, anyways.

• 51:07John Coogan?

  So Bitget, a smaller rival, lent Bybit 40,000 Ether worth more than $105 million roughly five hours after the Friday hack.

• 51:16John Coogan?

  According to the CEO Gracie Chen, the loan has unusually borrower friendly terms since it charges no interest, doesn't require buy bit to post any collateral and doesn't have a set timeline to pay it back. It's more pure trust. So I think everyone in crypto knows that like if there's a fracture, it can go very badly for everyone in the ecosystem. So it's worth it to just step in, plug the hole and reassure the entire market and then sort things out. I mean, it's just moving quickly to stop liquidity.

• 51:44Jordi Hays?

  A lot of the FTX stuff was triggered by Luna and then what was Three Arrows Capital. Those two major implosions, you catalyzed this sort of downstream effect.

• 51:54John Coogan?

  But I mean, you could play out a different scenario where all of those, all of those firms, Three Arrows and Luna, they all shored up the capital immediately and coasted on. Although Luna does seem like it was like a ticking time bomb and FTX has had some serious problems, but.

• 52:09Jordi Hays?

  The pure irony here, and I'm glad that BitGet is doing this, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure they'll, it'll come back in other ways for them. But the irony here saying the loan has unusually friendly borrowing, borrower terms since it charges no interest, doesn't require them to pay back the collateral and doesn't have a set timeline. It's more of pure trust. The irony is that crypto is created to deliver trustless finance, right? Where you didn't have to rely, you didn't have to rely on trust. You could just trust the software and the code. So it's kind of interesting that they didn't do this on chain.

• 52:46John Coogan?

  Reinventing everything, including bailouts and backroom deals between bank CEOs, basically.

• 52:51Jordi Hays?

  This would have been a really interesting way to flex the potential of crypto to be like, we raised a billion dollars on chain in this sort of trustless way in order to, you know, make, make our customers whole. And, but, but, you know, I'm sure they had reasons not to do that.

• 53:11John Coogan?

  So Bybit said, we know each other well. We had common investors. Together, we want to drive the industry forward and we want to fight our common enemy who are hackers, not each other. BitGet will not get any equity stake in Bybit as part of the loan. I'm sure all that stuff takes a long time to paper too. How much equity are you going to get? What are the terms? And so instead it's just, hey, I'm going to front you and we'll figure it out later because otherwise this is going to bring us all down.

• 53:34Jordi Hays?

  It's so, it's also just so crypto to be like, here, here's a hundred mil. Quick hundred mil. You know, the cool thing is that they were able to, I'm sure they were able to get that, the 40,000 ether over there.

• 53:45John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 53:46Jordi Hays?

  In minutes, in the same way that it took minutes to steal the 1.4 billion.

• 53:52John Coogan?

  Well, if you're looking for a little bit more of a normal finance app, why don't you check out public.com investing for those who take it seriously. Multi asset investing, they have industry leading yields and they're trusted by millions. And we got a post from Leaf Abraham here. Scrappiness matters. Their team, the public.com team produced a new TV ad entirely in-house. No ad agency, no production company, just sweat and hustle from the team and a few grand of licensing fees start to finish 12 days. And I love this, I mean, you can go see the ad, but it's cool because like, like people forget that like it can go, you can deliver just an MP4 to the Superbowl if you want to. You don't have to hire a team for that.

• 54:30Jordi Hays?

  Kanye does this.

• 54:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, if you're going to post it on Twitter, X, like you can just take that video and run it on TV. And of course they had a team internally that clearly knows their way around production. And so they were able to make something that looks very cinematic and looks great and you should go check it out. But it is cool to see a company that's as big as public, like being still scrappy and they probably had more fun and it was probably more aligned with their brand. They just had less back and forth, move faster and it's great to see. And I think that's an important lesson for, for founders is like, don't lose that scrappiness as you scale. Just because you can afford an ad agency doesn't mean you actually need one necessarily. You need to make sure that it's the right person, right align.

• 55:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I'd like to see somebody do a, a company like public do a, an ad that's just like a recording of a FaceTime call. So it's like ringing, the CEO picks up, gives a quick spiel and like hangs up and like, that's the entire ad unit. And it's just shot and one take, screen recorded on their phone. Cause you could imagine even just something novel, like having that, having the, the, you might have to license the sound from Apple. But, but it would be a cool viewer experience.

• 55:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, well, let's move on to an interesting post from Casey Hanmer. I'm not sure if you're familiar with him. He was involved in the scrolls decoding project that Friedman did. He runs a very cool company here in LA out of a castle in Burbank. It's amazing. He'll terraform labs terraform industries and they're they're using solar panels to suck carbon and hydrogen out of the atmosphere and convert it into natural gas. And then they can sell that onto the grid as energy. Very cool company.

• 56:10Jordi Hays?

  Very cool.

• 56:11John Coogan?

  And he worked at JPL for a long time. He's brilliant. And he is asking the question of what should go on the first starship mission to Mars? And so the next window, so you can't just go to Mars anytime. It's not like the moon. You actually have to the two planets have to be really close, basically, and it only happens every couple of years. And so we really got to hit that if we want to get on a cadence. And we want there to be at least one mission during the next launch window. And then we want like 100 ready to go for the next window because you can't just you can't just wait four years and be sitting on your hands. You got to test a lot. And so there are 601 days until October 7, 2026, which is the mass optimal launch

• 56:56John Coogan?

  window to Mars and when that opens. So he says he doesn't have any privileged information, but it's fun to speculate about what SpaceX could choose to send on its first starship flights to Mars. Spoiler alert, he thinks it's rods from God, which is fun. So over the

• 57:11Jordi Hays?

  By the way, Calder in the chat says, having to plan around the the optimal launch issue window is a skill issue.

• 57:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's great. And so over the next 600 days, SpaceX has a number of key technologies to demonstrate orbit, reuse, refill and chill. So orbit, this Friday, we're due for flight eight of Starship, which will be very cool to watch. And this one may finally achieve orbit. Earlier flights technically had the performance necessary, but deliberately targeted the ocean to prevent the possibility of a starship being stranded in orbit without propulsion capability. And then undergoing an uncontrolled reentry and crashing reuse. This is the holy grail of rocketry. SpaceX has indicated that they may attempt to re-fly booster 14 on flight nine, which would establish booster reuse.

• 58:03John Coogan?

  Flight nine may also see the first attempt to catch the starship upper stage. But in any case, the successful reuse of both stages of starship is necessary to fly to Mars. We gotta be reusing these things if we're going to make it economical to get there and get back continually. Refilling, we can load starship up with cargo for Mars, but it's not going to leave low Earth orbit unless starship can be refilled with fresh fuel and oxidizer. SpaceX has been working on orbital refilling for some time, but we need to see it actually working. So you gotta get a bunch of fuel up to space and then refill once you're in space, which is crazy because we're not sending something small.

• 58:40Jordi Hays?

  Can we also talk about how uncontrolled, uncontrolled reentry is just the best.

• 58:47John Coogan?

  That's just like crashing anywhere.

• 58:49Jordi Hays?

  For crashing, just slamming back into the atmosphere.

• 58:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, so it's, it's high stake stuff. They might have to shoot it out of the world if it's a shoot it out of the sky. If it's coming down over a populated area and then chill. By far the easiest of the four tasks, but long-term stability of starship's cryogenic fuel will require that it be actively refrigerated, particularly in the challenging thermal environment of LEO or deep space. It's hard to make predictions, particularly about the future, but he's optimistic that SpaceX will have multiple fully fueled starships ready to go in October of next year, followed by a 10-month cruise and then either orbital Mars orbital insertion. And so he broke this down in another article. He has a couple of different things that he thinks that they should work on, but we'll just skip right to the spoiler alert.

• 59:38John Coogan?

  He says rods from God. We know there's a high likelihood of mostly pure, that mostly pure water exists within 10 to 20 meters of the surface across large swaths of the various prospective landing sites. Why not drop off a few dozen long steel or tungsten spears, guide them in while tracking them on radar, and then survey their impact craters with high rise as soon as the dust has cleared? These rods will impact the surface at about 8 kilometers per second, that's extremely fast, penetrating many times their length and exposing the subsurface to our existing orbital instruments for the first time. The main attraction of this approach is that it requires essentially zero additional

• 1:00:20John Coogan?

  effort on top of the existing program, whereas the others require either a crash instrument development program, or building and flying multiple intricate surface operations robots, and landing them with an extremely untested EDL system. Rods from the gods merely requires dropping a few tons of steel in roughly the same area, and then surveying the damage. It's also the only method that can deliver enough energy to actually directly access the deep subsurface at scale. And so, JPL actually considered doing this, of course, they went with robots, but I like that he's thinking outside the box and putting up some crazy ideas.

• 1:00:59Jordi Hays?

  Well, this is the kind of, this is the kind of citizen science that you've been asking Elizabeth Holmes to do, right?

• 1:01:03John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:01:04Jordi Hays?

  Like, hey, you're in, you're in prison, but like, prove that you're legit by, by being at the cutting edge, making recommend, you know, I want to see Elizabeth Holmes, you know, writing an open letter to Pfizer, saying, hey, you're doing it all wrong.

• 1:01:16John Coogan?

  This is what you should do.

• 1:01:17Jordi Hays?

  Hey, Johnson and Johnson, this is how, you're, you're making this mistake.

• 1:01:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:21Jordi Hays?

  You know, we actually had this figured out.

• 1:01:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Jordi Hays?

  You know, why don't you try this?

• 1:01:24John Coogan?

  We'll get to this later in the show, but H5N1, the bird flu's going around, what is Elizabeth Holmes' take? If she doesn't have one, you know, keep her locked up.

• 1:01:34John Coogan?

  But anyway, he closes out by saying if all this goes well, the technology situation in 2028 could look like this, and that's, I think, the next, next transfer window. Easier technology, SpaceX will have expertise in space solar, photovoltaics, Mars air separation, miner, water prospectors, and SpaceX will not be an expert in pressure structures. And then the harder technology is orbital refueling, which we mentioned, cryofuel heat rejection, Mars EDL, space suits, long-duration life support, surface life support and water miner. And then SpaceX is not an expert in fuel plant, rock miners, construction robots, nuclear reactors. And this is, this is, I mean, there's a lot of other companies that are working on this tech now.

• 1:02:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's that, what's the team that spun out of SpaceX that's doing nuclear stuff now? Not, not, uh,

• 1:02:27John Coogan?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:02:29Jordi Hays?

  It's the wife of the Farcaster founder.

• 1:02:33John Coogan?

  Oh, I don't know. But there are a number of companies that have spun out of SpaceX to solve different, different problems that will, will come up as we colonize the moon and Mars. But what's really crazy is like, there's all this noise around Elon, all this noise around tech and stuff, but things do seem to be relatively on track for a private company to deliver something to Mars in just a few years, which is crazy and a huge milestone. And so I'm super excited for that, and I'm excited to see where it goes. And I'm sure there'll be lots of other opportunities that crop up for businesses that are built on top of that plan because SpaceX isn't going to do everything.

• 1:03:14Jordi Hays?

  Yep. I got a pitch, I got a pitch last year, or maybe it was 2023 for a team building gas stations on the moon. Like, they were like, we are Chevron for space. That was the thesis of like, basically, building, you know, fuel depots on the moon, which was a very cool thing to be thinking about.

• 1:03:36John Coogan?

  So Doug Burnhour, the founder of Radiant, another Founders Fund Andreessen portfolio company, he worked at SpaceX with Elon on special projects. Elon put him on a task. He, you know how the Falcon rocket has those legs that land? And that's how it lands? They took those off when they created the chopsticks that catch it. But those legs come down and they land the, the normal Falcon nut. Basically, yeah.

• 1:04:02Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 1:04:03John Coogan?

  Yeah, the LaFerrari of the rocket world, I'm sure. And so he was working on that project, then Elon was like, I like you, keep going, work on tunnels and boring company stuff for a while. And then he tasked him with, hey, when we get to Mars, what are we going to do for energy? And he ran the numbers on photovoltaics. And this is a little bit controversial. Not everyone agrees with this conclusion, but basically because Mars is farther away, it gets less light. And so he was saying, if you need to set up solar panels to refuel a rocket to generate enough power, essentially, you'll need to bring tons and tons of, like, just so many solar panels. And the math doesn't quite work out in his mind. And so what he said was, you should bring a nuclear reactor,

• 1:04:48John Coogan?

  a smaller nuclear reactor, drop it down. It generates a lot of waste heat, which can be used to melt ice, creating water. And then you have a nuclear reactor that can then create the fuel out of the natural resources and then refuel the rocket and then come back.

• 1:05:03Jordi Hays?

  And it's a perfect, it's a perfect plot to a sci fi movie now.

• 1:05:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:08Jordi Hays?

  And it could be a, you know, good catastrophe documentary. It's like, hey, we dropped this reactor and set off this chain of events that destroyed the universe. But, and now we have to say, we've got to save the universe.

• 1:05:20John Coogan?

  We've got to save them. And so, yeah, I mean, they've, they've taken that. I mean, that, that's kind of like the long term inspiration for Radiant, but in the short term, they're building basically a nuclear reactor in a shipping container. And you can drop it off in a military base. You can drop it off in an oil and gas extraction site. You can drop it off at a hospital. If they need, you know, a one megawatt diesel generator, you can just replace that with a one megawatt nuclear reactor. And it lasts for five years or 10 years instead of, you know, like, a couple days until you need to refuel it with diesel. So in the military, you have to deliver diesel through these convoys and these trucking, like, over and over and over again. Radiant kind of eliminates that need. And so they're going into testing now and working on that. But when we get to Mars and you get sleepy, what kind of bed are you going to be sleeping on on Mars?

• 1:06:06Jordi Hays?

  Eight sleep.

• 1:06:07John Coogan?

  Let's go.

• 1:06:09Jordi Hays?

  We're putting in eight, the first thing to go to Mars is an eight sleep.

• 1:06:12John Coogan?

  The first thing, for sure.

• 1:06:13Jordi Hays?

  Ramp corporate card.

• 1:06:14John Coogan?

  For sure. Nights that fuel your best days. Turn any bed into the ultimate sleeping experience. Go to aidsleep.com, use code TBPN and send us your receipt and we'll, we'll get you a hat. Anyway, let's stay on the topic.

• 1:06:28Jordi Hays?

  Wait, I gotta look at my, I gotta look at my sleep score last night before we jump in.

• 1:06:32John Coogan?

  I, I, I tried the warm up thing. I tried the warm up thing and it's fantastic. I woke up no problem at like 5:30. It was amazing.

• 1:06:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's unbeatable. All right. I didn't do so hot. I had an 84, but it was just because, it was just because I. There you go. It took my son needing to go to the hospital for you to beat me.

• 1:06:54John Coogan?

  Jordy texted me last night and says like, I won't be out slapped.

• 1:06:59John Coogan?

  No one, no one.

• 1:07:00Jordi Hays?

  I was serious about it. I just only got six and a half hours.

• 1:07:02John Coogan?

  I got six and a half hours too. Something, something happened. I think, I think I set my alarm a little bit too early.

• 1:07:06Jordi Hays?

  Bogged.

• 1:07:08John Coogan?

  Well, let's stay on the topic of space exploration, space travel and NASA. NASA, you might've heard that there's, that there was an impact probability, an asteroid was going to hit Earth. It was very risky. There was a poly market all about it, but good news, the impact probability of asteroid 2024, year four has dropped to 0.004%. It's expected to safely pass Earth in 2032. Let's go. Thank you to humanity undefeated. And we have a post from Sula here, fell for it again, award. Would you look at the time? Nothing ever happens.

• 1:07:44Jordi Hays?

  So, so anyways, my, my, I don't have the tinfoil hat here unfortunately, but my, my conspiracy theory just said last week was that NASA really didn't want to get dogged. And so as all the pressure, you know, they, they felt like the spotlight was going to shift to them. They go, oh, oh.

• 1:07:59John Coogan?

  Oh, it's an asteroid. More important than ever.

• 1:08:01Jordi Hays?

  And they just were basically raising it like a point every couple of days. They just make us all afraid. It's like, well, we better keep them funded because you know, we don't want to, we, we want to keep track of those, those asteroids.

• 1:08:11John Coogan?

  It's a fun conspiracy. I, I wonder if it worked. Maybe they, maybe they got the email. What are you working on? And they said, we're working on saving humanity, guys. And Elon was like, keep up the good work. Joe is just like, we're not cutting a dime. I don't know. I mean, the NASA budget isn't that big. It's a, it seems reasonable and it's fun. They produce inspiring stuff.

• 1:08:31Jordi Hays?

  That's important.

• 1:08:31John Coogan?

  All sorts of Americans all over the world. It's fantastic. Anyway, let's move on to Stratechery. There's an article today about AI promise and chip precariousness. Anthropic released Claude Sonnet 3.7. Dylan Patel had the joke of the day. He says Anthropic is also a Chinese AI company because of their aversion to the number four. And the point here is that, you know, Claude is just updating 3.5, 3.7. Why don't they just do Claude 4? And it's because they see it as a GPT-4 level model in terms of total training size. That's the answer there. But it is funny that all of the different model companies are on slightly different numbering systems. And so GPT-4 is equivalent to Grok 3, which is equivalent

• 1:09:15John Coogan?

  to Claude 3 in terms of like total scale. And, and this is all measuring flops.

• 1:09:23Jordi Hays?

  You kind of slipped there and you said guac?

• 1:09:25John Coogan?

  Guac, glo- glok.

• 1:09:26Jordi Hays?

  Which is a great name for a model. Grok has Grok chocolate. I want to see Grok guac.

• 1:09:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Jordi Hays?

  It doesn't matter.

• 1:09:34John Coogan?

  Yeah, for sure. After this piece was published, I was contacted by Anthropic, who told me that Sonnet 3.7 would not be considered an E26 flop model and cost a few tens of millions of dollars to train, though future models will be bigger. So that's why they're fundraising. I updated the post with that information. The only significant change is that Claude 3 is now referred to as an advanced model, but not a Gen 3 model. It's all very, very confusing. I love Malik's work, but reject his neutral naming scheme. Whoever gets to a generation first deserves the honor of the name. In other words, if Gen 2 models are GPT-4 class, then Gen 3 models are Grok 3 class. And whereas Sonnet

• 1:10:16John Coogan?

  3.7 is an evolution of Sonnet 3.5's fascinating mixture of personality and coding prowess, likely a result of some Anthropic's special sauce in post-training, Grok 3 feels like a model that is the result of a step order increase in compute capacity with a much lighter layer of reinforcement learning with human feedback. It answers, its answers are far more in-depth and detailed. Model good, but frequently becomes too verbose, RLHF lacking. It gets math problems right.

• 1:10:44Jordi Hays?

  And that's, and that's referencing. That's referencing Grok, you know, saying that, you know, who should, somebody asked,

• 1:10:55Jordi Hays?

  if like one, one, what was the question?

• 1:10:58John Coogan?

  Who spreads the most misinformation on accidents is Elon, or who should get the death penalty, it says Trump, and it's like, very controversial, and not even aligned with like what Elon believes, obviously, and so clearly just an aberration of the model. And it gets math problems right, so the model's good, but its explanations are harder to follow because the RLHF is lacking. And that makes sense, because it takes a long time to actually do RLHF, generate all the data, and buy new data. It's also much more willing to generate forbidden content from erotica to bomb recipes, while having on the surface the political sensibilities of Tumblr, with something more akin to 4chan under the surface. Grok 3 is also a reminder of how much speed matters, and by extension, why base models

• 1:11:42John Coogan?

  are still important in a world of AIs that reason. Grok 3 is tangibly faster than the competition, which is a better user experience more generally. Conversation is the realm of quick wits, not deep thinkers. The latter is what, is who I want to be doing research or other agentic type tasks. The former makes for a better consumer experience in a chatbot or voice interface. And so, a lot of people are having this kind of paradigm shift, where if they just want to chat and talk through an issue, they'll use Grok 3, but then if they really want a research report, they'll fire off OpenAI's ChatGPT deep research, let it cook for 5, 10, 20 minutes, come back and have the full thing. And I've found that there's this interesting like collapsing process, where deep research

• 1:12:25John Coogan?

  is great at pulling just every single possible source from the internet, and then, I don't know what's going on here, HDMI is iffy today. And then, and then, so it'll generate 5,000 words, 10,000 words, and then I'll fire another prompt to say, hey, summarize this in 10 bullet points, because I trust that you've done enough research to this point to have all the good data. But so he goes on to say, ChatGPT meanwhile, still has the best product experience. Its Mac app in particular is dramatically better than Claude's and it handles more consumery use cases like math homework in a much more user friendly way. Deep Research meanwhile is significantly better than all of its competitors, including

• 1:13:06John Coogan?

  Grok's Deep Search and for me anyway, is the closest experience to AGI yet. OpenAI's biggest asset, however, is the ChatGPT brand and associated mindshare. COO Brad Lightcap just told CNBC that the service had surpassed 400 million weekly active users, a 33% increase in less than four, three months. OpenAI is, as I declared four months ago after the release of ChatGPT, the accidental consumer company. Let me see if I take this out and put it back in. Let's see. Okay. Well, fun report from, from Ben Thompson over at Strategi as always. Let's move on to some fundraising news. We got Nico from Default today.

• 1:13:49John Coogan?

  I'm incredibly excited to announce Default's new inbound orchestration platform and an additional $4 million in funding led by 8VC. We started with Default with the vision of building the best platform for revenue teams to orchestrate their inbound workflows. And so Default, if you're not familiar, is a, a tool for

• 1:14:11John Coogan?

  helping B2B SaaS companies deal with inbound requests and pipeline, basically lead qualification, pipeline them into trials, get them to convert into real customers. And so he says, uh, what's that? We're good? It's still staticky. I don't know what's going on here. You think it's the cable? Okay. We'll see. We, we, we got a problem with you on the stream, Jordy. Good thing we're ironing this out. We're trying to, we're trying to figure out FaceTime today so that we can.

• 1:14:47John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:14:49John Coogan?

  That makes sense. Let's see.

• 1:14:55John Coogan?

  Let me see if I can change this to

• 1:15:01John Coogan?

  audio, video, microphone. Okay. Can you hear me?

• 1:15:06Jordi Hays?

  I can hear you.

• 1:15:07John Coogan?

  Okay, we're good. So he says, "The go-to-market landscape has changed more in the last five years than in the previous two decades. Teams can no longer afford bloated tech stacks, inefficient workflows, and fragmented data. Winning in this new era requires AI-driven automation, seamless data orchestration, and intelligent routing." What is default 2.0? Embedded website intent data and conversion tracking. One of our biggest learnings since launching 14 months ago is just how much data is siloed in the inbound marketing funnel, especially on the website. Almost every revenue team we've met with has told us that they're flying blind on what's happening at the top of their marketing funnel with no visibility or control into website activity from target accounts. So they want to see, hey, you're thinking about buying this product.

• 1:15:47John Coogan?

  What are you doing on our website? Are you a qualified lead or not? Are you worth the CEO getting on a call with you to pitch you? Or should it be some SDR? Or should we just have you fill out more forms until you're actually ready? And so, very cool to see him building. He's been building for a number of years and raised some money and launched a new product.

• 1:16:06Jordi Hays?

  I mean, they've just been so focused. You know, they came out a few years ago at this point with the core idea of what they were going to do, but they've just been in the trenches every single day, iterating on like, actually, what is the product? Like, what does the product actually do? Because people oftentimes come out with like, default's plan was always to be this sort of like inbound lead processing, you know, sales enablement, you know, product. And, you know, it's been amazing to watch them just sort of, you know, iterate and hit these milestones and acquire some very meaningful customers at this point. And I think he's been smart about sort of staggering out his capital raises. He raised, I think, a seed round from

• 1:16:45Jordi Hays?

  Kraft, adding more firepower from 8VC now. Awesome to see and a bright, bright future. I mean, I think, I just appreciate how Nico didn't leave anything to chance. He's just been focused on making, like, actually making sure the product is meaningfully differentiated from the rest of the market and making it better every single day.

• 1:17:06John Coogan?

  It doesn't feel like one of those hyper bloated rounds where it's like, oh, they got $50 million out of nowhere and who knows?

• 1:17:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:13John Coogan?

  Like now it's a $2 billion company. It's like he's putting one foot in front of the other, making sure the product's working, iterating, actually taking time to build this stuff and

• 1:17:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:17:21John Coogan?

  And going with tier ones instead of, you know, some frothy, you know, partnership.

• 1:17:25Jordi Hays?

  I don't know how this was priced, but I'm going to guess that this was like a 10% dilution round or potentially even less.

• 1:17:32John Coogan?

  Seems great. Well, you know, if he keeps going, he's going to take a shot at Salesforce. Salesforce got Matthew McConaughey on board. Should he get a celebrity to endorse?

• 1:17:42Jordi Hays?

  Saquon.

• 1:17:43John Coogan?

  Saquon, yeah. Well, there's a report.

• 1:17:46Jordi Hays?

  Saquon's like the new Jeb Bush, you know, like it used to be that every founder wanted to raise from Jeb. Now Saquon's the, the next target.

• 1:17:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Jordi Hays?

  The king, he's the king maker.

• 1:17:55John Coogan?

  Well, there's a, there's a report in the information about investors souring on celebrity brands. These days it seems like every celebrity wants to start their own brand. Just look at Robert Downey Jr. Who just raised venture money. I love that.

• 1:18:10Jordi Hays?

  Let's go.

• 1:18:12John Coogan?

  But investors say they're overwhelmed by pitches for undifferentiated or low quality goods and are quickly souring on the sector. Four early stage investors who previously backed celebrity brands said they are shifting focus to promising products as opposed to celebrity buzz, especially after high profile flops in once trendy categories like beauty. This could be a rude awakening. There's a funny, there's a funny quote in here. One investor was recently pitched on a protein puck, cookie like snack, fronted by a rapper, but passed after the investor didn't like the taste. The firm was also reluctant to invest, given the number of high protein products already on the market, the investor said, and wasn't convinced the rapper's fan base was enough to make the snack a breakthrough right now.

• 1:18:56John Coogan?

  And that's true. It's like for celebrities, the ones that seem to do well in consumer have a, they're just like, they're posting all the time. And so there's this idea that it's like, if you're just a celebrity and once a year, you're taking over the world with some Academy Award winning movie, that doesn't. Give you permission to tell your audience about some promoted product every single day. Right? Like the Daniel Day Lewis energy drink isn't going to make its appearance in Lincoln. Or there will be blood. And so unless you're following Daniel Day Lewis's Instagram or podcast, which he doesn't have, you're just not going to hear about that outside of one press release.

• 1:19:41John Coogan?

  Now, there are other people you look at like the Mr. Beast case study or the Kim Kardashian, where they are posting their life every single day. They have so much content going out that they can not only basically run a lot of actual direct response ads for their product on a very consistent basis, but they can also tell the story of building the company and building the product. And that's what makes it a little bit more.

• 1:20:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there's, there's, there's a difference. There's, here's where I would separate it out. There's a difference between fame and attention, right? You can be famous and have very little owned attention, right? So owned attention to me is Jake Paul.

• 1:20:15John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:20:16Jordi Hays?

  You know, absolutely grinding on content. He's, he's famous, but he's also delivering content every single day for years and years and years and years. Logan Paul is the same way. Another, you know, another good example is like Kim Kardashian, right? She's gone on these crazy

• 1:20:33Jordi Hays?

  television.

• 1:20:36Jordi Hays?

  And

• 1:20:38Jordi Hays?

  lately, though, she has the sort of sustained attention of posting every single day. And I think that a lot of these celebrity brands have popped up, you know, Casamigos is a, is a good example, right? Of the sort of old style of celebrity brand where you just are relying on fame to drive, to drive acquisition. And I think that works in a category like beverage where a lot of the sales is happening offline. But for these like online, more like sort of digitally native brands, like I think you need like actual distribution channels. And so some brands that I've seen that, that actually work well is like.

• 1:21:15Jordi Hays?

  Product innovation of positioning a like 200 milligram caffeine energy drink, but positioning it as a sports drink and selling it to kids. And then like combining that with massive attention. Better Jake Paul's betting and Joey's betting company like that makes sense because Jake Paul's posting about boxing and sports and training all day long. Like it's just a great audience. But, uh, but ultimately, you know, I got pitched a company like a year ago. That was like, that Snoop Dogg was doing. And I just didn't really have like, I was like, okay, your, the, your play here is to take a commodity CPG product, put Snoop Dogg's face on it.

• 1:21:56Jordi Hays?

  And, and that's going to drive more sell through in the grocery store. And, and I, I don't necessarily buy it, right? If it's truly a phenomenal product. But the other thing is like, you know, another brand that I think has done well is Kendall Jenner has eight, one, eight tequila.

• 1:22:13John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:22:13Jordi Hays?

  She's completely integrated that into her life. So when she's hanging with her friends on the weekend, they're drinking eight, one, eight. When she's going to some show, you know, in Vegas, like they're serving eight, one, eight at the bar. So it's hyper integrated into her life.

• 1:22:26John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:22:26Jordi Hays?

  These other celebrities that are like, oh yeah, I'm going to have my tequila brand.

• 1:22:30John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:22:30Jordi Hays?

  And, you know, just, um, hope that my face moves bottle. Like I'm just super bearish on that.

• 1:22:36John Coogan?

  And they get overextended. Like you think about like Snoop Dogg or Shaq, like they have so many different partnerships at this point. It gets really, really difficult to know, you know, like Clooney was kind of right. And like Casamigos was his thing and you didn't really see him everywhere. With, with some of these other celebrities, they're doing so many things. It's hard to track. Okay. What are you selling this day today or tomorrow?

• 1:22:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:58John Coogan?

  It might be something different. Who knows? Do they actually care about this product? Do they actually use it?

• 1:23:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I also think like Ryan Gosling applied the more traditional style of celebrity brand building, which was just, I'm famous, I'm gonna take a commodity product and, and use my fame to just like drive more acquisition, but that doesn't necessarily work in some of these more differentiated categories where consumers are discerning, right? They're not gonna eat the, they're not gonna eat the Snoop Dogg pizza rolls every night unless it's actually like the best pizza roll at the best price and you know.

• 1:23:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, and was it, was it Gosling or Reynolds? Ryan Reynolds was the one with the tequila and the Sprint Mobile or the, the, yeah, Ryan Reynolds. He, he seemed really deeply integrated with those companies where like he was, you know, almost directing ads and like really seemed integrated with like his, his brand. He would like come into a company that was already kind of working, Mint Mobile, and then really make it all about him for a while and kind of, but do it in like this almost self-aware way that kind of broke through. It, it didn't feel like he was just getting paid to endorse it. It felt like he really had a stake, and I think he did when we looked at the numbers. He was making a lot of money and had a big equity portion.

• 1:24:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and the last, the last thing I would say here, we've seen with, with Skims, Kim Kardashian's brand is that extra

• 1:24:22Jordi Hays?

  to do bill.

• 1:24:25Jordi Hays?

  In the example, you know, in the skim situation, she has 5% of the company now after raising $700 million and Skims is gonna be a big company, but it required a huge amount of capital. So again, even if you have that attention, you need brilliant execution and in Skim's case, brilliant product as well. So, well, John, I'm glad we're dealing with this technical issue while it's just me and not our guest tomorrow, who is going to be, you know, is a busy guy.

• 1:24:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, we'll have to iron it out. I think we'll be on Zoom on a different computer. Running it from this laptop is just a mess. But let's do a quick promoted post for Bezel. We love Bezel here. Shop over 22,000 luxury watches, fully authenticated in-house by Bezel's team of experts. Jordy and I have been going back and forth on what the next watch should be.

• 1:25:20Jordi Hays?

  We're gonna have to start doing some of these off the balance sheet. It's gonna impact profitability, but it's sort of, you know, siloed away from our household finances, which get a little bit more scrutiny, you know. And what do we got today? We got to start, we got to start, actually, the ad is just us bidding on auctions.

• 1:25:40John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. They're highlighting a presidential Rolex gold day date champagne diamond set president, $15,000 available. Highly recommended. It's the watch from Glengarry Glen Ross. Look at this watch. This watch costs more than your car.

• 1:25:57Jordi Hays?

  That's great.

• 1:25:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, highly recommend Bezel. Fantastic experience. Anyway, let's move on to the timeline. We got Sully saying, you have approximately one year before the normies catch on. Go build. What is he talking about?

• 1:26:11Jordi Hays?

  He was just talking about, just generally about AI. I think, I think this is one of those things. You can tell the average person on the street that intelligence is free and they can create an army of robots to create wealth for them.

• 1:26:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Jordi Hays?

  And they'll be like, cool. Like, did you see the new Netflix show?

• 1:26:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:30Jordi Hays?

  You know, so, so I think this is one of those things like, you know, we, the internet was already like, personal computing was amazing. The internet was amazing. Mobile was amazing. All these major, you know, crypto was amazing. All these, you know, tech trends, even when the average person sort of starts to experience them in their daily life, the lack of agency is what makes, what, what makes life great for the entrepreneur is, yes, you know, millions of people, billions of people could use the same AI tools that everybody listening to this and, and the same tools that we use, but they're just not going to because they're fixated on the next, you know, the next TikTok video in their algorithm, the next Netflix special.

• 1:27:15Jordi Hays?

  And that's why there's never been a better time in history to be an entrepreneur.

• 1:27:19John Coogan?

  Lock in.

• 1:27:20Jordi Hays?

  You can actually just lap everyone over and over and over. And you absolutely should.

• 1:27:26John Coogan?

  Yeah, for sure. Let's move on to Sam Byers. He says, in case you don't, didn't have a sense of scale of Chinese oversea fishing fleets, strip mining the ocean life and leaving it bare for those who rely on it, dozens of ships as far as the eye can see for months and years at a time. Argentines, Argent- Argentinians, military forces patrol Argentine waters to keep Chinese fishing fleets out. China is running rampant on the ocean, apparently. I had no idea about this.

• 1:27:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this. This video is absolutely insane. Yep. It it it looks like a scene out of Dune where you have the, uh, what do you call those? Those harvester things, I forget. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. The the the sort of, um, you know, America has gone back and forth. Sustainability is, you know, sustainability was, I feel like when I was graduating, uh, like in like 2019, it was the hot thing. It was anti-plastic. It was like, you're gonna bring your, uh, you're you're gonna bring like glass to the grocery store and like put rice in it. Like, it was like, we sort of reached peak sustainability, like pro-planet. There were consumer brands that set like their entire differentiation as a brand was, you know,

• 1:28:39Jordi Hays?

  we're eco, we're green, we're 1% for the planet. That's why you should buy us. And that's really faded in the mind of the consumer, right? I don't think that eco-marketing even works anymore for a pretty broad. And this was like peak, uh, Albers in many ways, right? Yeah, totally. And this, this, when you see videos like this, it makes, uh, you know, all the sort of like ocean plastic, uh, brands, it makes them, um, almost seem like, you know, what what is even the point? If if, um, there are groups internationally that are going to, um, completely, uh, nuke, uh, this, you know, uh, all life in certain areas.

• 1:29:21Jordi Hays?

  And and it doesn't, you know, I'm not a, uh, I'm not a maritime, uh, uh, you know, uh, life expert, but one, one year of these sort of Chinese fleets, you know, fishing like that off of your shores and you could set back a local, um, you know, the local, um, fishing, uh, you know, sort of supply or or or life back decades and decades and decades, potentially 100 years. So what they're doing out there, uh, is not, is certainly not sustainable. Uh, and we don't even know what the impacts are yet.

• 1:29:58John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, that's always been the trade off is like in America, we're, you know, putting away the plastic straw as well. You know, Brazil's deciding deciding whether or not they should burn down the entire or clear cut the Amazon rainforest or China's like

• 1:30:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:12John Coogan?

  firing up the next major coal plant. And if there's not some sort of global treaty, you know, you're just gonna fall behind.

• 1:30:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I had a crazy story from that era of like hardcore eco marketing. I had a buddy who I was still in college and he came to me and he's like, dude, I'm gonna make this collapsible reusable straw that people are gonna put on their keychain.

• 1:30:34John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:30:34Jordi Hays?

  And he went all in on it, like took loans out from his parents and was like, he basically, you know, for him at the time, $30,000 was like a monstrous amount of money. And he was like, why don't you do this with me? And I didn't, I didn't see the vision at all, to be honest. Like personally, I wasn't, I was like, I'd rather not use a straw personally than just like bring mine around and be like putting it on my keychain and stuff. So I didn't get it, but he saw the vision and he went for it. And this is the beauty of consumer products is that you don't really know if something oftentimes like you have a strong feeling that something's gonna hit, but you don't know until you start selling it. And so he spent 30 grand, you know, making this cool video and he launched this thing on Kickstarter and he did like just under $2 million in 30 days.

• 1:31:18John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:31:20Jordi Hays?

  And then he had a whole new setup and I was like blown away. It was amazing. But then he had a whole new set of problems. He was like, oh, did we get our margins right? Like, we actually, we actually meet this demand, right?

• 1:31:30John Coogan?

  How fast?

• 1:31:31Jordi Hays?

  Absolutely insane roller coaster. But I think that was, that was peak, peak.

• 1:31:38Jordi Hays?

  Go on the chat right now.

• 1:31:42Jordi Hays?

  Bring back plastic straw.

• 1:31:45Jordi Hays?

  Something like.

• 1:31:45John Coogan?

  Completely losing you. Let's, let's do a couple more posts. Jordy, you there?

• 1:31:52Jordi Hays?

  I'm there. I can hear you.

• 1:31:53John Coogan?

  Cool. I like this prompt. Save yourself $200 a month. Chat GPT four oh. Think of yourself as the premium model. Chat GPT pro plan. Got it. I'll provide responses at the highest level of detail, accuracy and relevance optimized for your technical and business needs. Let me know how I can assist. I don't know if that actually works, but it's a, it's a funny joke and never a dull day on AI, AI X, I guess, is what we're saying these days.

• 1:32:20Jordi Hays?

  Never a dull day.

• 1:32:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, never a dull day. Let's go to Jordan Singer. He's got some announcements. Say hello to Cobot Company. We're sharing an early preview of Cobot, an entirely new way for teams of people and AI agents to work together in a shared space. Jordan Singer says, "We're so excited to share more about what we've been working on at Mainframe. We're fascinated by agents because they're capable of doing real work and producing outcomes that can accelerate teams. We don't think the experience around them has been cracked yet. Enter Cobot Co." What's your take on Cobot Co.?

• 1:32:52Jordi Hays?

  So, one, I love what Jordan's doing here, which is he's created this sort of like parent brand, which is Mainframe. He like launched that, he raised money for that, and then now he's shipping what you can think of as, you know, products, but he's almost operating more as a product studio. And at least from the outside, I'm not, I was involved with his last company, but not in this one. And ultimately, you can imagine him like shipping more and more of these things as all the technology evolves quickly. This sort of mainstream, Mainframe allows him to just like continue to ship and iterate without the, without the same level of risk as when you start like Lucy and then you ship Lucy's first product.

• 1:33:35Jordi Hays?

  And if it doesn't work, or it doesn't scale as fast as you want it to, you're stuck with it. Not that you experience that, quite the opposite. But anyways, I think this is fantastic. I really love the visuals here. It's so hard to actually stand out visually online anymore. You have to come up with something that's truly unique. And I think that Jordan and the Mainframe team actually crushed it here. And I like the name Cobot.

• 1:33:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:00Jordi Hays?

  Is fun.

• 1:34:01John Coogan?

  Well, speaking of robots, let's go to Yaxine. He says, "Prediction: Household robots are going to be the size of Dobby the Elf. It needs to be small enough that you feel comfortable crushing it with your boots if it bugs out and starts attacking you." And yeah, we've seen a couple of things. I think Reggie was talking about this, how, you know, you shouldn't have a computer that you can't throw out the window. And I agree with this. This is like the original Asimo. And once the Boston Dynamics robots start getting bigger and bigger, they start getting scarier. And unless it's an industrial application, a lot of things could be done with smaller robots. It's cheaper and it's certainly more reassuring.

• 1:34:37Jordi Hays?

  Do you think that when robots like truly start to feel alive that at night, people will want to just go and put them like in a closet, like lock the door? Just this feeling of like, if something feels sentient, even if you know that at the end of the day, you can just kind of unplug it. Does that give you this sense of, do you want to go to sleep when you've got three or four little Dobby sized robots, you know, walking around, uh, Dobby, uh?

• 1:35:02John Coogan?

  I don't know. I mean, if it's quiet, I know people put away the Roombas. There's been a lot of these features that have been built into these like, uh, you know, the, the Nest, the smart home, the Apple, the, the, the Alexas. We typically have like a hardware level kill switch to let you know that if the ring is red, it cannot listen to you at all. Facebook came out with a, uh, video conferencing product called the Portal. You detach it to your TV and it would have a very high quality video signal that would come through. And that had a slider that you could slide over the camera because Facebook didn't want to be known.

• 1:35:41Jordi Hays?

  Well, that was the thing, wasn't it? Didn't Zuckerberg like have his, he always would have his laptop like taped? You remember that?

• 1:35:47John Coogan?

  Yep. That was a big thing in case you, in case they hacked me, I want to be able to close the, the, the webcam entirely.

• 1:35:54Jordi Hays?

  Think about how many times Zach has been mugged by Apple. Like he tries to, uh, like eventually he's like, that, that whole portal device like should have been a hit, but they launched it at the wrong time. And then like the technology itself is amazing, but then they were competing with FaceTime, which like everybody has their, uh, you know, computers, iPads, iPhone. FaceTime is like probably, you know, aside from the complications we're dealing with right now, probably one of the best products Apple's ever made.

• 1:36:24John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's not a FaceTime issue. It's HDMI issue. We got this big, long HDMI cable and it keeps cutting out. You keep seeing the static on the stream. It's terrible. Well, let's go to David Holes. He says, crazy question. How many kids would you be willing to have in exchange for paying zero taxes? And 26% of people said, I wouldn't change my plans. Only 13% of people said I would have 10 kids. I mean, I guess it's.

• 1:36:48Jordi Hays?

  Only 13? I mean, that's kind of crazy.

• 1:36:51John Coogan?

  I mean, it, it goes to this idea of like, I, I feel like kids are a fixed cost and, uh, taxes are a variable expense because they scale with your wealth. So yeah, if you're making like $10 million. Like you're not going to wind up spending more on the incremental kid. There's actually a lot of economies of scale to having lots of kids.

• 1:37:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:11John Coogan?

  But it's more of a reflection of just like, how many kids do you want to have? I think.

• 1:37:14Jordi Hays?

  I love how you're you're you just said kids have economies of scale. That's a great. That's a great post and it's real. Yeah, I think that one thing I saw this earlier. The you know how you can write, I think it's like 6K a year you can write off for dependent support. It's like childcare, basically. And that number, if you're a parent and you've like have to child hire childcare, just feels like still like ridiculously low, right? I probably spend across like multiple nannies and babysitters, stuff like that, like around 100K a year on childcare. And so the fact that the government's like, okay, you can write off 6K. I'm like, okay, thank you for nothing, basically. But you know why it's 6K?

• 1:37:58Jordi Hays?

  Is it was that number was set in the 70s and they haven't adjusted it for inflation. So in the 70s, it would have made sense, like some babysitter's making 6K a year, something like that to to take care of your kids. Now it's like that gets you one month of childcare in California and in New York. And absolutely wild, but.

• 1:38:21John Coogan?

  There are some countries that have done this type of stuff where they've they've put incentives in place to.

• 1:38:26Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 1:38:26John Coogan?

  Encourage more pronatalism. And there's there's a bunch of other pronatalist features. We should do like a whole deep dive on it.

• 1:38:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, the funny thing here is I do think the right answer is I wouldn't change my plans because you should be having kids based on your just broader ability to and commitment to parent and provide for them in any scenario. And so plan around that.

• 1:38:53John Coogan?

  Anyway, let's move on to crime junkie host Ashley Flowers is building a $250 million podcasting empire. She hosts the second most popular show in the United States. Now she's brought on investors to take on YouTube, Hollywood and her biggest live tour yet. Good afternoon from Los Angeles. It's warm, sunny and great to be home. Thanks to those of you who attended our podcast business summit. This is from the New York Times. Let's break this down. This 36-year-old podcaster makes $45 million a year in profit. That's a lot of money. She's the creator of the popular Crime Junkie podcast and she's still getting used to being on camera. I got into podcasting so no one would have to see my face. But now, of course, she has to be on video.

• 1:39:37John Coogan?

  She built Crime Junkie into the second most popular podcast in the United States. Joe Rogan is first. The weekly show reaches about 6 million people, according to Edison Research. Over the last few months, Flowers has started recording video episodes of Crime Junkie to expand the show's audience. Her video setup is a work in progress. The studio is an old gym on the ground floor of her company's offices, located in the broad ripple neighborhood of Indianapolis. Soundproofing materials are scattered across the room and a couple of her producers oversee a makeshift video bay. Not much different than ours. A couple of monitors on her table along one wall. One employee sits on the floor with her laptop, helping Flowers when she stumbles over a pronunciation. The person in charge of the makeshift teleprompter sits to the right, scrolling the script up and down manually.

• 1:40:22John Coogan?

  Flowers is now constructing a new studio devoted to video, part of an expansion that will triple her office space to 30,000 feet and double her staff to almost 130 people. That's big. And so she raised $40 million from the Churnin Group.

• 1:40:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it sounds so insane, but when you're making $45 million in profit a year, having 100-plus employees seems totally reasonable.

• 1:40:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:40:46Jordi Hays?

  It's cool to see. So the Churnin Group has been making, you know, it'll take the fullness of time to understand how these bets play out. But they were also in Doug Demiro's.

• 1:40:57John Coogan?

  Doug Demiro's Cars and Bids.

• 1:40:59Jordi Hays?

  They did Cars and Bids.

• 1:41:00John Coogan?

  And as part of that, I believe the Doug Demiro channel went into that holding company, essentially.

• 1:41:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:06John Coogan?

  And they've also been in Barstool at various points and Reese Witherspoon's Hello Sunshine Production Company. And so they've been doing a lot of stuff in this. Flowers could have funded the effort herself. Audiochuck, named after her dog, turned a profit of about $45 million last year, according to people who asked not to be identified, discussing confidential matters.

• 1:41:26Jordi Hays?

  John, let's just put this into perspective for the audience. If they were getting figure AIs multiple, they would be worth $100 trillion.

• 1:41:38John Coogan?

  Probably, probably.

• 1:41:40Jordi Hays?

  So just to give you some context there.

• 1:41:43John Coogan?

  And so she wants Chernin's help expanding her business from a podcast network built around her to a media company that spans audio, video, merchandise, and live events. AudiChucks founder already wears many hats at the company. She is host of two primary podcasts, Crime Junkie and The Deck, and serves as chief executive officer. She gives feedback on stories, closes deals with distributors, sells advertising, and tours the country taping live episodes. She's also the mother to a three-year-old daughter. So she's got a lot on her plate, and she wants help, and that's why she called the Chernin Group. Crime Junkie began as a side project. She loved crime stories since she was a kid, reading Agatha Christie mysteries with her mom. After graduating from ASU, she got involved with local organization called Crime Stoppers that helps people report crimes anonymously.

• 1:42:27John Coogan?

  To help promote the organization, she began hosting a weekly local radio segment called Murder Monday. Flowers could tell listeners wanted more. Inspired by the true crime podcast serial, she and her childhood friend Britt Prowat started taping a show before and after Flowers' day job at a software company. They released the first episode on December 18th, 2017. So, you know, seven year run. Good run.

• 1:42:51Jordi Hays?

  I've never understood the, well, I've never personally been interested in these crime podcasts. I listened to one on Ross from the Silk Road that actually was cool and helped us sort of craft the story of what was sort of the business story around the Silk Road. But I think this story is amazing. There's so many more of these that you don't hear about, right? And this is why David Senra had felt for a long time, he felt like a crazy person, right? Being like, why don't people understand that podcasts are basically have some of the best business models in history? Why aren't more people like taking these seriously? So.

• 1:43:33John Coogan?

  And then at the power law extreme, it can look like a very, very large business that's throwing off tons of.

• 1:43:40Jordi Hays?

  This is a better business than Cursor, right? Like, not, not like, not that, you know, it can't scale to the same potential, but, you know, it's, and it's funny because we were actually, we were messaging with Senra about this, and he's saying that it doesn't even make sense to look at these on an EBITDA basis because there's, it's just every.

• 1:44:05John Coogan?

  There we go. Are you back?

• 1:44:11John Coogan?

  Okay, now you're back.

• 1:44:13Jordi Hays?

  I mean.

• 1:44:17Jordi Hays?

  Enter on the day.

• 1:44:22John Coogan?

  I know, it's been terrible today.

• 1:44:29Jordi Hays?

  Now we've been, you know, keeping the show going.

• 1:44:33John Coogan?

  Back.

• 1:44:33Jordi Hays?

  But anyways, do you want to wrap up, John?

• 1:44:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, we should wrap up. We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll cover some of these tomorrow. Anything else? Did you see the Sigma camera that launched? Thought this was kind of cool.

• 1:44:45Jordi Hays?

  I thought that was cool, yeah.

• 1:44:47John Coogan?

  So, some people were saying this is what Apple would launch if they built a, a photography camera. So Sigma just announced a brand new camera. No SD card slot, a single USB port, 230 gigs of, of storage that can support 2.5 hours of video or 4,300 raw images, color modes, 6K L log. And so it's really just designed to be something that you just pick up, point and shoot, and it looks fantastic. And I thought that was a interesting device. We've been talking about like the desire for more gadgets, more things that you can gift to someone at the holidays because.

• 1:45:22Jordi Hays?

  We're definitely in a, we're definitely in a hardware renaissance.

• 1:45:25John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:25Jordi Hays?

  It's awesome. But what I, what I love about this is that it's not just beautiful, it's performant, right? So a lot of these new hardware products are sort of driving sales based on their sort of nostalgic side or super future facing, right? Like you saw with like the Rabbit R1. But seeing a product like this, that's not only beautiful, but highly performant, is, is fantastic. And I already, I already want to pick one up.

• 1:45:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, it seems like a good gift. Let's close with Kristoff. He says, movie idea saw, but it's all developers and they need to solve lead codes to survive. And we got, of course, tagged in this because we've been doing PMF for a day, and we highly recommend you head over there and watch that stream after you finish listening to this episode. And so good luck to the boys in the cage. They're making great progress. And every day the streams are improving. So thanks for listening.

• 1:46:18Jordi Hays?

  Love to see it.

• 1:46:20John Coogan?

  Please leave us reviews and stay tuned for the next one. Back in the studio.

• 1:46:24Jordi Hays?

  We'll see you back in the studio tomorrow.

• 1:46:26John Coogan?

  See you later. Bye.