SpaceX IPO Gigastream

(00:34) - SpaceX IPO Coverage (21:25) - Vindication for Elon Musk (35:31) - SpaceX IPO 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (01:03:38) - Oasis Faces LMNT Lawsuit (01:20:16) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions TBPN is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Public - https://public.com Cisco - https://www.cisco.com Console - https://www.console.com CrowdStrike - https://www.crowdstrike.com Figma - https://www.figma.com MongoDB - https://www.mongodb.com NYSE - https://www.nyse.com Railway - https://railway.com Shopify - https://www.shopify.com Codex - http://openAI.com/codex Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tbpn/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  You're watching TVP. Today's Friday, June 12, 2026. We are live from the TVP and also down the temple of technology, the forces of finance, the capital of capital. Let's tell you about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both. Easy years corporate cards, bill pay, accounting and a whole lot more all in one place. It's a massive day today. SpaceX IPO priced at $135 a share, opened at 150. Where is it right now? Jordy, are you on it? Do you have the price? So the price is up there. Okay, now we're getting the endless mirror. You can call it the price.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Crazy. Here we go.

• 0:36John Coogan?

  But we'll be tracking throughout the show. So stay tuned. It's 2.28 trillion dollar company.

• 0:42Jordi Hays?

  172.

• 0:43John Coogan?

  $172 a share. I had Tyler and Jordy submit confidential estimates for how, where the stock would be at noon effectively. Jordy went with a market cap based estimate. Tyler went with a share price estimate, I think.

• 1:02Jordi Hays?

  Which is what I was told.

• 1:03John Coogan?

  I went with a percentage based estimate. You can translate between all of them. We'll get there. But the stock's doing well. The IPO is successful, I would say. There's been a bunch of chatter back and forth, bull cases, bear cases. But overall, it's hard not to look at this as a success. The, you know, Bill Gurley doesn't want a crazy pop on day one, doesn't want it to go up 100%. If we're in 10, 20, 30% range for something this big, that just feels like everything came together properly. And so, so far, looks really, really good.

• 1:38Jordi Hays?

  Healthy.

• 1:39John Coogan?

  So at noon, we will check in with our predictions and see who won. There is an exciting prize for the winner, by the way. It will be revealed at noon as well. There's been a ton of coverage. We can, we can pull up this video from Gwen Shotwell, who is the president of SpaceX and has been on an absolute tear building the company for basically its entire existence. What, what are you laughing at?

• 2:04Jordi Hays?

  I didn't know what your prediction was.

• 2:06John Coogan?

  Did you see what it is?

• 2:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Nick just shared it.

• 2:11Jordi Hays?

  This guy over here. This is a funny guy over here.

• 2:14John Coogan?

  Be revealed.

• 2:15Jordi Hays?

  Funny guy over here. This is why you trade.

• 2:17John Coogan?

  I was trying to.

• 2:18Jordi Hays?

  This is why you trade bits, not stocks.

• 2:21John Coogan?

  I was trying to pull an estimate out of you and you were like asking me 25 clarifying questions. The purpose is content to have a conversation. Just pick a number and you're like, oh, well, does it count where it opens? Or what it opens after like.

• 2:36Jordi Hays?

  I just saw your positioning was confused. I just saw your positioning was confusing.

• 2:40John Coogan?

  We gotta have a discussion about this. There's nothing that crazy at stake.

• 2:43Jordi Hays?

  Share.

• 2:44John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:45Jordi Hays?

  Everything's on the line, John. Everything is on.

• 2:48John Coogan?

  I was laughing about how you wouldn't take a side on the, on the dog walker versus the dentist. I was like, dog walker dentist, blind, who are you going? And you were like, I can't possibly, I couldn't possibly in the name of good television. Just pick a random side for the.

• 3:04Jordi Hays?

  Dog walker or dentist?

• 3:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:06Jordi Hays?

  Beach debate.

• 3:07John Coogan?

  The beach debate. We never, we never got your answer and you're like, I need more information. I can't possibly make a call.

• 3:12Jordi Hays?

  This is, it's such a tough one. Cause I don't.

• 3:14John Coogan?

  It's not that tough. You pick one randomly. Why is it tough?

• 3:17Jordi Hays?

  Here's why it's tough for me, John.

• 3:18John Coogan?

  Okay, explain.

• 3:19Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I have never in my life hired or worked with a dog walker.

• 3:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:24Jordi Hays?

  My family growing up, we had a couple of dogs.

• 3:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Jordi Hays?

  We walked our dogs.

• 3:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Jordi Hays?

  Like we never.

• 3:29John Coogan?

  You've been to the dentist?

• 3:30Jordi Hays?

  I was the dog walker.

• 3:31John Coogan?

  Yeah. You've been to, you're not your own dentist though. So why are you just going dentist?

• 3:35Jordi Hays?

  I've never had a cavity. Every time I go in there, I guess I'm blessed.

• 3:39John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 3:40Jordi Hays?

  Every time I go in there, they're like, looks good, boss.

• 3:42John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 3:43Jordi Hays?

  And, and I just head out.

• 3:44John Coogan?

  So equally useless.

• 3:46Jordi Hays?

  Equally useless profession.

• 3:47John Coogan?

  So flip the coin, it's TV. Useless profession.

• 3:51Jordi Hays?

  No, I just don't have any, I don't have any connection. I need, I need like slightly more.

• 3:55John Coogan?

  Why don't you fall back to like the economic power of the dentist industry versus the dog walking industry? Like if you had to pick a job, if you were trying to get a bag.

• 4:03Jordi Hays?

  I respect dog.

• 4:04John Coogan?

  Oh, you would go dog walker. Oh, you would be an elite dog walker over a mid dentist?

• 4:08Jordi Hays?

  Here's, here's two, here's like, here's kind of my thinking.

• 4:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:11Jordi Hays?

  There's a guy in my neighborhood.

• 4:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:13Jordi Hays?

  Who is walking dogs in my neighborhood all day long.

• 4:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Jordi Hays?

  I'm like, who? Like, a lot of people in my neighborhood don't work, they're just home all day. Like, why aren't you walking your dog?

• 4:24John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 4:24Jordi Hays?

  But, I think it's amazing that this guy is just like-

• 4:27John Coogan?

  He's printing.

• 4:28Jordi Hays?

  Clearly printing, all day long, just going for walks, hanging out, he's listening to music, hanging out, super nice guy. He picks up the-

• 4:35John Coogan?

  Sounds like you're going dog walker.

• 4:36Jordi Hays?

  Picks up the poop when he, when they poop on my lawn.

• 4:39John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 4:39Jordi Hays?

  I appreciate it, we have a, you know-

• 4:41John Coogan?

  Good relationship.

• 4:42Jordi Hays?

  I maybe wish you wouldn't do that, but-

• 4:43John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 4:43Jordi Hays?

  We have a fine relationship. Um, but then dentists, um, I could get really excited about a dentist if they were-

• 4:50John Coogan?

  You're still torn, you're still torn, you're still not picking a side.

• 4:54Jordi Hays?

  Equity backed roll up.

• 4:55John Coogan?

  Okay, okay, well that's an option.

• 4:57Jordi Hays?

  The dentist was kind of a figurehead for, uh, uh, uh, for, for some PE firm-

• 5:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:04Jordi Hays?

  Be able to deploy huge amounts of capital into rolling up family practices-

• 5:09John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 5:09Jordi Hays?

  And raising prices.

• 5:10John Coogan?

  What if, what if you're a dog walker, you, you earn so much money, you start being able to buy small dentist shops, rolling them up, you flip from dog walking into dentistry.

• 5:21Jordi Hays?

  Well, that would be the way, I don't, we don't know much about this story.

• 5:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:24Jordi Hays?

  But we do know there's a conflict.

• 5:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:26Jordi Hays?

  But that would be the way for the dog walker to strike back, is buy the dentist.

• 5:30John Coogan?

  So, final, final answer.

• 5:32Jordi Hays?

  Come in-

• 5:32John Coogan?

  What, what side are you picking?

• 5:34Jordi Hays?

  If the dog walker will commit to-

• 5:37John Coogan?

  No conditionals.

• 5:39Jordi Hays?

  Why can't I have-

• 5:40John Coogan?

  Dog walker or dentist?

• 5:41Jordi Hays?

  Why can't I have condition?

• 5:42John Coogan?

  You can't have conditions, because that's the rules that I'm laying down. You gotta pick one, dog walker or dentist, whose side are you on?

• 5:50Jordi Hays?

  Dog walker.

• 5:50John Coogan?

  There we go, finally, we got something.

• 5:52Jordi Hays?

  But, I'm gonna put, but I'm going, I'm gonna put, uh, heavy-

• 5:56John Coogan?

  The whole point is that, is that-

• 5:57Jordi Hays?

  A real, a serious amount of pressure.

• 5:59John Coogan?

  I'll just take dentist side, and I gotta defend that and steel man that, that's fun.

• 6:02Jordi Hays?

  I'm gonna put a serious amount of pressure on the dog walker.

• 6:04John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 6:04Jordi Hays?

  And I will provide the financial backing to acquire the dentist's practice and shut it down.

• 6:09John Coogan?

  Okay, okay.

• 6:10Jordi Hays?

  Because I know they have, I know they have some conflict.

• 6:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:13Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, it sounds like it's over the beach, it's really not that personal.

• 6:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:18Jordi Hays?

  And access to the beach.

• 6:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:19Jordi Hays?

  But I think there's an opportunity to make it personal.

• 6:21John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 6:22Jordi Hays?

  And, I think, I think at this point, if they're getting written up in the journal about this conflict, I think they should make it per, so they gotta figure out how to make it personal, and I think buying the dentist's practice, uh, and then shutting it down, or-

• 6:37John Coogan?

  As a high

• 6:38Jordi Hays?

  No, no, you can raise, you can raise an SPV.

• 6:40John Coogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 6:41Jordi Hays?

  Together and I, I would be willing to, you know, I need to meet the guy first, but uh, I'm at least moderately interested in providing at least some of the backing.

• 6:49John Coogan?

  Okay, okay.

• 6:50Jordi Hays?

  For the

• 6:51John Coogan?

  I got you. Well, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI, their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. Uh, let's play this clip from Gwen Shotwell. Uh, standing at the NASDAQ on the day of the SpaceX IPO. I think we might be able to play it on the big board. Uh, stock is doing well, holding steady at 2.27 trillion.

• 7:13Jordi Hays?

  Split screen.

• 7:14John Coogan?

  Whatever production team wants to do, we will, we will do as long as the folks at home can see Gwen Shotwell giving her speech to shareholders.

• 7:24Jordi Hays?

  Tyler is looking like a young Kimball Musk right now.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  Today we make history again. We have a history of making history. So I want everyone to know that we did open this morning in a rather exciting way. We launched Falcon 9 launched Starlink satellites to orbit.

• 7:45Jordi Hays?

  We have a history of nation history.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  So what company would do such a thing on the day that they open in the public market? SpaceX would, right?

• 8:00Speaker 03

  I am so proud of this team. Today, we're 24, we're, not today. This year, we are 24 years old. Elon founded this company in 2002 initially to build rockets and spaceships that will take humans to Mars, the moon, and even beyond. We've done, we've not quite gotten to Mars. We're almost at the moon, but let's just quickly run through the amazing things that you guys have accomplished. 2008, six weeks after a failure of Flight 3 Falcon 1, we got the first liquid fueled rocket to orbit from a private company. Yay. Yay.

• 8:39Speaker 03

  By the way, I should have prefaced this with, "Everyone said we could never get to orbit." Check. But it was a little rocket. Then it's, "Everyone said, 'Well, you can't get a real rocket to orbit.'" Two years later, we got a real rocket to orbit, Falcon 9. "Oh, well, you'll never, you'll never get to the space station," because that's what we really want to do, right? We want to take humans outside the bounds of Earth, but you'll never get astronauts to the space station? Check. We did that, too. Doubters, right? "Oh, you'll never fly Falcon 9 enough. You'll never get to production." Another one. 165 launches last year. Check.

• 9:25Speaker 03

  "You'll never build a rocket large enough to take humans to the Moon and Mars." We build one, we've flown it, and this year, I believe, we'll get to orbit with that vehicle, and we'll recover the first, the second stage. We've already recovered the first stage and re-flown it. So, good on you all for that, too.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  With the merger, the acquisition of XAI, we now, as a group, own the largest coherent gigawatt-class compute on the planet, which will help us truth-seek and understand the universe. So, congratulations to all of us for that.

• 10:09Speaker 03

  So, we're about 22,000 strong. I'm super proud that over half of us actually bought additional stock in this opening, totaling almost a billion dollars.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  So, thank you for that, too. But really, the thank yous go to all of you for hanging in there, for keeping a straight spine, as the doubters doubt, to achieve historic things.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  Sometimes every day, multiple times a week, thank you all of you for doing this. And I hope today is a day that you feel great about and that you're celebrating. Take a moment. Now, the Falcon Recovery Team can't take a moment today. But everybody else can, and I hope Falcon Recovery Team could take a moment a little bit later. Yep. And also, thank you to the families, the partners, the plus ones, the children, the brothers, the sisters, the parents that have lived through long nights, that have seen launch failures, that have seen AI compute go down, that have seen kind of the trials and tribulations of this incredibly difficult business. Thank you so much for hanging in there. I know I can't do this without my incredible partner.

• 11:23Jordi Hays?

  In all seriousness.

• 11:28Jordi Hays?

  Congratulations to the SpaceX team. It is like truly one of the most remarkable stories in the history of capitalism, in the history of America. Started in a little town called El Segundo, and Glenn Shotwell, one of the... Sorry, sorry, sorry.

• 11:53Jordi Hays?

  One of the most impressive executives of the modern era.

• 11:57John Coogan?

  Crazy.

• 11:57Jordi Hays?

  And we all should have known, just due to the nominative determinism.

• 12:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 12:03Jordi Hays?

  If you're gonna run, if you're gonna build a rocket company, hire somebody to run the company with the last name Shotwell, because she has shot quite well.

• 12:15John Coogan?

  Yeah. She worked at Chrysler and then began working at El Segundo.

• 12:22Jordi Hays?

  People like to say like, oh, non-traditional background.

• 12:25John Coogan?

  Oh, somewhat.

• 12:27Jordi Hays?

  Chrysler. Not exactly like a target.

• 12:30John Coogan?

  Yeah, well, she worked at the aerospace corporation, did technical work on military space research and development contracts. Early project she worked on was STS 39. During a 10-year tenure, she worked on thermal analysis, worked both in space systems engineering and project management positions. She left the aerospace corporation in 1998 to become director of the space systems division at Microcosm, Inc., a small rocket company in El Segundo. There, she was on the executive committee and responsible for business development. In 2002, she joined SpaceX, and she reflected on that later. She said, "When I was considering joining SpaceX back in 2002, I was struggling with the decision and drawing it out for weeks. It's crazy. Leaving Elon on red for weeks seems extremely risky.

• 13:15John Coogan?

  It feels like every decision he makes now is like, go, no, go today, get back to me right now." Back then, obviously SpaceX was very young, less leverage, less, less energy, less momentum, so these decisions would be drawn out. She said, "It seemed so risky for me personally to join this little startup in an industry where none had ever succeeded." I think she was starting a family around that time, and so it was risky from a career perspective. She said, "At the time, I was a part-time, single mother, yeah, and this was just too far out of my comfort zone. She was used to bigger corporations, more established companies. She's going to this small startup that has, you know, it's, at that time, it's like a

• 14:00John Coogan?

  guy who made money on the internet now wants to do rocketry. What's the chance that that works? It sounds crazy." And it was at the time. She says, "I was driving on the freeway here in LA when it finally hit me. I was being a total idiot. Who cares if I tried this job and either I failed or the company failed? What I recognized at that moment was that it was the trying part that was the most important. Try that risky thing, be a part of something exciting." What a fantastic run. And she, I'm not sure if she coined the term residual capability, but that's a big phrase that she started using around the time. Starlink started working, just this idea that they would go and build ahead of

• 14:43John Coogan?

  demand almost. So SpaceX built basically more launch capacity than there was demand for, but then because there was space on every SpaceX rocket and they were able to build them so efficiently, so affordably, they were able to put up a massive constellation of internet-connected satellites, Starlinks, and develop another huge business on top of it. And so this idea of building, building, building, and then finding the different opportunities. For a while SpaceX point-to-point was the big residual capability unlock that was coming in a few years. The idea that you get on a spaceship, a starship, in New

• 15:25John Coogan?

  York and you'd be in Tokyo in 30 minutes because you would have gone all the way to space and back and it would land. I think that's still part of the plan, but obviously took a backseat in the S1, took a backseat in the marketing materials for the company. But something that is still possible if you wind up delivering incredible safety and performance and cost reductions to the rocket launches, why not hop on a rocket to get across the world in 30 minutes? Sounds pretty cool and probably oddly easier to approve than hypersonic planes since those have been stuck in regulatory approvals for years and decades and never really worked out. The Wall Street Journal is also reflecting

• 16:09John Coogan?

  on Gwen Shotwell. They say 19 things to know about SpaceX president. She's a diplomat. She's seen as a steady hand in gendering trust in the company from those who have been unsettled by Musk's actions. You're worried about his politics, you're worried about his other companies. Well, Shotwell has you covered with a very steady hand on the tiller at a very large company with 22,000 employees, as she mentioned. She's a billionaire after the IPO. Shotwell's net worth will be well north of $1 billion. She owns about 12.6 million shares. She translates Musk's lofty ideas.

• 16:46Jordi Hays?

  That part is a little bit crazy.

• 16:49John Coogan?

  Which one?

• 16:49Jordi Hays?

  To me.

• 16:50John Coogan?

  Which one?

• 16:50Jordi Hays?

  So at the current price, she is closer to being worth like $2 billion.

• 16:55John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 16:56Jordi Hays?

  But still.

• 16:58John Coogan?

  To be that early and that critical and not wind up with a 5% stake or 1%

• 17:03Jordi Hays?

  Not even, not, yeah, like something more like a 1% stake.

• 17:06John Coogan?

  A lot of dilution, you know, big, big company.

• 17:08Jordi Hays?

  A lot of dilution, but uh.

• 17:10John Coogan?

  A lot of secondary. She might have been selling it.

• 17:14Jordi Hays?

  Selling with Zai.

• 17:15John Coogan?

  It was like, yeah, we actually started out with a 40% stake.

• 17:19Jordi Hays?

  I'm really bullish.

• 17:20John Coogan?

  We gave her 40%.

• 17:21Jordi Hays?

  I'm really, I've never been more bullish. But you did sell 95%.

• 17:25John Coogan?

  In the latest tender.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is 50% because Elon's hitting 1T and she's just hitting 1B.

• 17:32John Coogan?

  Well, yeah. Shawwa was paid 86 million last year, mostly in the form of stock options. She's one of eight board members at SpaceX. She's 62 and has worked with Musk for two decades. She has a specific ritual for launch days. Because she was in Scotland the first time the company successfully got a rocket into orbit, she now writes Scotland on two sticky notes and places each inside her shoes to be in Scotland for every launch. She said it in 2022.

• 18:03Jordi Hays?

  Scotland mindset.

• 18:04John Coogan?

  That's pretty elite. I like, is, what's that called? Where you're, uh, superstitious. Superstitions. Rare, potentially underrated? What do you think? Do you have any superstitions?

• 18:18Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's in the words, super.

• 18:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:21Jordi Hays?

  Superpowers.

• 18:22John Coogan?

  Superstition. Superstition. That's another one. Anyway.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Giggus.

• 18:27John Coogan?

  Whether you're long, whether you're short, SpaceX, express yourself on public.com. Invest for those who take it seriously. Stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service. What's your take on superstition? Do you have any? Doesn't sound like it.

• 18:43Jordi Hays?

  I think it's, I think it's quite distracting.

• 18:46John Coogan?

  Distracting? To have a superstition?

• 18:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, kind of like, could it, could end up being a pretty big waste of time, so I avoid them.

• 18:53John Coogan?

  So you feel like unless you go through your whole ritual of eliminating all distractions, things aren't going to go well?

• 19:00John Coogan?

  So you're superstitious about letting distractions creep into your workflow. I understand that.

• 19:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe I am. Maybe I am.

• 19:07John Coogan?

  Yeah. If I have a single distraction, everything will fail. She's been a staunch defender of Musk. She worked to prevent business fallout during all the political turmoil. She worked with NASA officials and assured them that tensions would pass. She doesn't love social media. I like his in-person self better than his Twitter self. In fact, they feel like two different people many of the times. She has a much different social media presence than her boss, posting sparingly, exclusively about SpaceX. She's focused. She was raised outside of Chicago. As a teenager, she decided she would become an engineer.

• 19:41Jordi Hays?

  Wait, you can imagine like she's reading X. She's like crying emojis? Quoting six more posts? Crying emojis? He's never crying.

• 19:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:56Jordi Hays?

  At the office. He never does that. He's like two different people. This feels like, I feel like I don't know this guy. He's always crying.

• 20:02John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, when she first joined SpaceX, she was VP of Business Development. So not in the, in like a co-founder, chief executive type role on day one. And so that probably explains a little bit of the equity position and how that developed over time. But she was promoted to SpaceX's President and Chief Operating Officer in 2008, the same year the company won a critical $1.6 billion NASA cargo transport deal.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  So I looked up, she was SpaceX's seventh employee.

• 20:29John Coogan?

  Wow, that's pretty early. She'd be disappointed if SpaceX didn't have a settlement on the moon and wasn't building a manufacturing facility on the moon. Within 10 years, she shelled time. She lives on a 1,000 acre ranch, close to a SpaceX facility in Texas. She married a fellow SpaceX engineer and has two children. She put a Starlink mini terminal on top of her car to speak with Musk on her 40-minute commute without the call dropping. Interesting. Jimmy Sonny also went back in time and told a story in the Wall Street Journal about the, one of the early days in, in the SpaceX journey. Vindication for young Elon Musk, he wrote.

• 21:10John Coogan?

  In 2004, he told the Senate that open competition would transform the industry. First, before we get into this, let me tell you about Railway. Railway is the all-in-one intelligence provider. Use your favorite agents to deploy web apps, servers, databases, and more. Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, and security. So, this was an interesting story. And I wonder if we could find the actual video, like, on C-SPAN. I don't know if it's out there. But in 2004, the Senate held a subcommittee meeting, gathered on, all the subcommittee gathers on Capitol Hill to ask a question that now sounds quaint. Could America still reach space without the Space Shuttle? Of course, we do it, like, every couple days, thanks to SpaceX. The shuttle was grounded, 14 astronauts had died in two disasters, and the hearing room

• 21:55John Coogan?

  was thick with anxiety of a nation that feared it had lost a step. Senator Bill Nelson, who had flown on the shuttle, sort of the Jared Isaacman of his era, warned that without it, the country might spend years relying on Russian rockets. Nobody disagreed. Witnesses came in two panels. First, you got the NASA team defending the program through William Ready, its Associate Administration for Administrator for Spaceflight, accompanied by a retired admiral. After NASA spoke, industry did. They got a vice president from ATK, another from Lockheed Martin, a director from the Aerospace Group. Are you looking for a candle, a nuke, one way or another?

• 22:37Jordi Hays?

  This is brutal for my prediction.

• 22:38John Coogan?

  This is brutal.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  I'm feeling pretty good.

• 22:41John Coogan?

  But it's also brutal for anyone that wants drama on the chart, because you're not getting it today. It's very stable. I think this is a very well-managed project from start to finish.

• 22:51Jordi Hays?

  And then now, it's just like, a trillion-dollar company, so it's hard for it to move super...

• 22:58John Coogan?

  I don't know. I just think that if you were expecting 10% swings up and down...

• 23:03Speaker 01

  I was thinking, share count is pretty small, though, right? Like, at least they're being traded.

• 23:07Jordi Hays?

  Sure, sure.

• 23:09John Coogan?

  Very, very small. So, the last person on the industry panel, you got Lockheed, ATK, Aerospace Corp. It's Elon Musk.

• 23:18Jordi Hays?

  AP in the chat, wait for dip.

• 23:20John Coogan?

  Wait for dip. Five dollars. It's just nukes down to $5. Uh, so on the second panel, the industry panel, you got heavy hitters from Lockheed, other industry folks. You got a 32, 2-year-old man who had founded a rocket company two years earlier and he'd yet to launch anything. It was Elon Musk. Uh, he had a more immediate complaint. NASA had just awarded a rival a quarter of a billion ... without open competition. And his company had protested. Uh, so everyone's there to debate like, okay, can NASA get to space without the shuttle? And he's there being like, what about my contract? He shows up to this thing to testify and they keep having to try and keep him on track.

• 24:02John Coogan?

  It's a very interesting, uh, way to like, get his word in edgewise. So the senators thought the matter was off limits. Like this hearing isn't about that Elon, it's not about your contract. Uh, it was under government review already and they kept having to steer him back to the day's subject, specifically heavy lift, the blunt problem of getting big things off the planet. Certainly, he said, although it's worth correcting, I think Mr. Ready misspoke when he said it was competitive. It was in fact not competitive. The chairman tried again, let's stay to heavy lift capacity issues Elon, stay on message. And Elon says absolutely. But his, his correction was safely on the record. He said something the panel wasn't ready to hear.

• 24:45John Coogan?

  The past few decades Elon Musk told them had been a dark age for human spaceflight. One costly government program after another failed to reach the pad. The public's drift from space, he argued, wasn't the apathy of a tired people, but the disappointment of a hopeful one. It sounded in 2004 like a man with a grievance and a half-built rocket. He was dismissed. He had made the same case the summer before in one of his first Capitol Hill appearances at a 2003 hearing on commercial spaceflight. There's a borrowed concept from The Economist, Joseph Schumter, a creative destruction. The industry had lost it. Not one successful new entrant in four decades. Space, Mr. Musk, Musk pointed out, had barely improved since Apollo, while every other

• 25:30John Coogan?

  technology from computing and the internet to intercontinental flight had been transformed by newcomers and open competition. Restore that forcing function, he said, and space would change no less dramatically. The government need only be a customer, not a competitor. He could be glib. Every launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base, he said, was required by law to be studied for its effect on the local SEALs at $10,000 a flight, even as that population had been climbing by nearly 13% in a single year. He says the SEALs are doing fine. Let me launch. With the population, with that population growth rate, Mr. Musk observed, it seems clear that if anything, the Vandenberg launch activity serves as

• 26:10John Coogan?

  an aphrodisiac. Dropping lines, dropping zingers on Capitol Hill. People laughed. It was the laughter you gave a clever outsider. But we can grade that clever outsider's argument now, because more than 20 years have passed and the record is in. The fear that haunted that 2004 hearing, dependence on Moscow, was not ended by the shuttle but by Mr. Musk's company. In 2002, a SpaceX capsule carried two astronauts to the space station from American soil.

• 26:38Jordi Hays?

  2020.

• 26:39John Coogan?

  2020. Closing a nine-year gap in which the United States paid Russia as much as $90 million a seat to hitch a ride. The semi-reusable rocket Mr. Musk described to skeptical senators became a fleet of boosters that land themselves and fly again. Today SpaceX launches more than half the world's payloads. On Friday, it goes public in what is expected to be the largest IPO in history. What are you laughing at, Jordi Hays?

• 27:03Jordi Hays?

  I'm laughing at the comments on this

• 27:05John Coogan?

  On this article?

• 27:06Jordi Hays?

  Post we made earlier.

• 27:07John Coogan?

  Oh, what'd we say?

• 27:08Jordi Hays?

  Breaking the pride of France, Mistral AI is exploring a raise of 3 billion at a 20 billion euro valuation.

• 27:16John Coogan?

  Are you getting in trouble? You have such a bone to pick with France. You're always taking shots at France. What did France do to you?

• 27:26Jordi Hays?

  I love France.

• 27:28John Coogan?

  This is beautiful.

• 27:28Jordi Hays?

  I genuinely, it's one of my favorite countries in the entire world. I love it.

• 27:35John Coogan?

  But people are having fun, poking fun at France.

• 27:37Jordi Hays?

  But I just think.

• 27:38John Coogan?

  You're, oh, you're.

• 27:39Jordi Hays?

  I'm kind of laughing at my own.

• 27:41John Coogan?

  Your own joke.

• 27:41Jordi Hays?

  Bit, a little bit.

• 27:43John Coogan?

  Because the card just says France, right?

• 27:45Jordi Hays?

  It says French.

• 27:46John Coogan?

  French. Friend.

• 27:48Jordi Hays?

  Let's, uh, let's, let's put it up.

• 27:50John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm. We will. Well, the Financial Times has every possible take on, uh, on SpaceX today.

• 28:01John Coogan?

  Scroll down. How's it doing? Good times. Stuart Kirk says SpaceX is cheap on a price to Cosmos ratio. Terrestrial evaluations don't apply when it comes to Elon. Last June, he wrote a column with the headline, "An Entry-Level Guide to Valuing Stocks." He also provided a link to a simple valuation tool that even my children's new hamster could use. What? How can a hamster use this? Interesting. I guess he's joking around. It's a weird, that's a weird line to throw in. But discounted cash flow models require that cash moves in and out of a business to be net positive in order to calculate what a company is worth. Unless you want a negative number for some reason, like in divorce court.

• 28:44John Coogan?

  Hence, a few years after I became a portfolio manager in the mid 90s, equity analysts trying to flog dot com stocks began using price to sales ratios. When those looked too silly, they invented price to clicks or price to eyeballs. And you know how that ended. No wonder investors still prefer cash flow-based valuation methodologies over anything else. That said, there are legitimate reasons to employ other metrics, including price to sales ratios. The latter are handy as a sense check when profits are temporarily depressed, distorted, or cyclical, provided that the revenues are real and measurable. If a price to earnings ratio appears odd, comparing price to sales ratios within an industry can be reassuring. Moreover, plenty of firms operate at a loss and thus using earnings multiples doesn't work, period.

• 29:30John Coogan?

  This can go on for years due to a heavy investment in business. Amazon was founded in 1994 and didn't make a profit until 2003. And a lot of people are taking a victory lap today over, uh, Aswath the Modrin, the NYU finance professor, who I have a ton of respect for. But he was very skeptical about the Tesla IPO when that went out. And everyone reasonable in the finance world was saying, well, the valuation is disconnected from the fundamentals compared to any other car company, compared to any other company. Doesn't make sense. But of course, the, the revenues did grow, the earnings did materialize. They did wind up making money, although the the stock is still very highly valued because Elon's

• 30:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 30:09John Coogan?

  Pitch is a very large vision.

• 30:10Jordi Hays?

  Elon companies can stay disconnected from the fundamentals longer than you can stay solvent.

• 30:16John Coogan?

  And that's what Stuart Kirk is arguing in the Financial Times. He says terrestrial valuations don't apply when it comes to Elon, and that is something that I think a lot of people have internalized.

• 30:26Jordi Hays?

  Trust the plan.

• 30:27John Coogan?

  Yes, so trust the plan. Enter SpaceX on 95 times, 95 times revenue, I believe.

• 30:35Jordi Hays?

  Dude.

• 30:36John Coogan?

  No, I haven't forgotten the decimal point.

• 30:37Jordi Hays?

  My prediction is cooked. It was looking so good an hour ago.

• 30:44John Coogan?

  Too bad, but let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it.

• 30:56John Coogan?

  I seriously couldn't believe it when I first divided the target valuation of $1.8 trillion by the last 12 months of revenues. I laughed so hard the wine I was drinking shot from my nose. This is the most, this is the most Financial Times article I've ever read.

• 31:13John Coogan?

  He but he he's not saying, he's not saying I almost, I almost spit up, but but no, that's different. So a spit take is one thing. You spit out your coffee. What is that? He says he was drinking wine and it came out of his nose. That's brutal. Like, that's very rare. You gotta be

• 31:29Jordi Hays?

  That sounds like

• 31:31John Coogan?

  for that to happen.

• 31:32Jordi Hays?

  That sounds like

• 31:33John Coogan?

  You have to be really drunk to have the alcohol come out of your nose and not just spit it up or throw up. I feel like the tear of like bad things that can happen to you when you're drinking too much.

• 31:42Jordi Hays?

  I laughed so hard I threw up.

• 31:43John Coogan?

  Well, no, I don't know. I may be drinking a lot. I laughed so hard the wine I was drinking shot from my nose. Then I laughed some more. This guy is really taking shots.

• 31:53Jordi Hays?

  He just made this up entirely because

• 31:58Jordi Hays?

  has anyone had liquid, has anyone been drinking something, started laughing and had?

• 32:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but out of the mouth is one thing.

• 32:09John Coogan?

  Spit take is different than out of your nose. Your nose is a new, new level, new level. Anyway.

• 32:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, mechanically, I, I, I don't buy it.

• 32:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:17Jordi Hays?

  I think he tried to, I think he tried to really like illustrate this.

• 32:20John Coogan?

  I think so. Well, he continues. He says, then I laughed some more when I thought of all those analysts who had, who had to justify that their multiple, that their, that the, that multiple in their buy recommendations to clients. It was easy for Goldman Sachs, however, it simply forecasted revenues to rise 25 fold by 2030. Uh, it makes me wonder why they didn't push for 50 fold or why not sales up to a hundred times in four years. SpaceX could have raised double or quadruple the money. After all, the IPO offering was at least three times oversubscribed and on Friday, trading opened with the stock up 11%. How am I to sensible person which excludes conflicted global bankers and meme investors who jump on anything from marijuana to the metaverse

• 33:04John Coogan?

  to Bitcoin and AI? Value SpaceX then? Frankly, I haven't a clue. This guy's writing like the most non-artikel, uh, by which I mean I have no idea how anyone can arrive at the current valuation and it's not that the outlook for SpaceX's core launch and satellite communications business as well as artificial intelligence is largely theoretical at this point. It's that, it's that even insanely bullish assumptions get me nowhere near the share price. Perhaps I'm not dreaming big enough. Space is larger than earthling investors such as me are used to analyzing. Then again, I've just read the Morningstar research report from a couple weeks ago that arrived at a valuation of 780 billion, less than half of SpaceX's market cap, and it was wildly optimistic. Morningstar wrote of prodigious cost advantages in launch,

• 33:47John Coogan?

  reaching 18 billion in sales within a decade at 20% margins for even the more sensible Starlink business, tens, not necessarily hundreds of billions of dollars in annual growth. Over the coming decade are penciled in at operating margins potentially exceeding 75%. What a fantastic telecom business Starlink is truly. But of course, when you're dealing with trillions, you need to be, you know, the most exceptional. In their moonshot scenario, ones and zeros somehow arrive, somehow survive the battering from solar radiation. There are meaningful cost advantages over data centers on earth and SpaceX wins a fifth of the forecast market for AI infrastructure computing capacity. In a worst case scenario, it's a dud with the base case 4% of capacity.

• 34:30John Coogan?

  The latter is given a 50% chance of happening. Failure has a 43% weighting and the moonshot scenario, the rump. But even that 7% chance adds $93 billion to the overall valuation.

• 34:43Jordi Hays?

  Whole lot of mumbo jumbo.

• 34:49John Coogan?

  You're not buying it.

• 34:50Jordi Hays?

  It's a collection of some great businesses.

• 34:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 34:53Jordi Hays?

  Some businesses that have a lot of potential. It is a valuation that only one man on earth can achieve.

• 35:01John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, if you're trying to take your company public, you got to do it on the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world, raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. There's a whole bunch more posts.

• 35:13Jordi Hays?

  There's a post here.

• 35:14John Coogan?

  Elon is now officially the first trillionaire in the entire world in USD terms. Someone said that there, because of hyperinflation, there have been many trillionaires in other countries denominated in other foreign currencies. I think Zimbabwe is one of them, potentially the German Reichmark at one point minted a trillionaire potentially, but.

• 35:33Jordi Hays?

  I wanted to pull up this post from Founder's Fund because it was so inspiring for me. They posted this this morning and they said it is possible for ordinary people to choose to be extraordinary. And I've always just seen Elon as such a normal, ordinary guy, right? Like he's just like an ordinary guy.

• 35:52John Coogan?

  He's not, he hasn't been ordinary for the last 20 years, but he was, he was 30 years ago, 40 years ago. Like he was like, he was like a SaaS founder with like a decent business that sold and IPO'd. Like he was like a good unicorn founder of today.

• 36:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and I don't view good unicorn founders of today as ordinary people.

• 36:13John Coogan?

  Okay, go back.

• 36:13Jordi Hays?

  Almost every time you meet them, they're. Elite on like a couple of dimensions.

• 36:19John Coogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 36:19Jordi Hays?

  And so my argument is that like Elon was at no point in his life would you have met him? And thought, yeah, it's just an average Joe.

• 36:31John Coogan?

  Ordinary guy.

• 36:31Jordi Hays?

  He's an ordinary guy.

• 36:32John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 36:33Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, I was texting, I was texting our friends over at FF poking a little fun at this. I said Elon Musk is a very ordinary guy. This inspired me.

• 36:46John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 36:47Jordi Hays?

  No, but.

• 36:47John Coogan?

  There is a lot of ordinariness.

• 36:49Jordi Hays?

  You know what's not ordinary?

• 36:51John Coogan?

  His Diablo.

• 36:52Jordi Hays?

  FF's investment. Of $20 million at a $200 million valuation into SpaceX. It did get diluted, but it is still, I think, like the best venture investment of all time. Wait, no, I thought it was more like it's 50. I thought it was more like 80.

• 37:11John Coogan?

  80? I think it's closer to eight trillion cents.

• 37:17John Coogan?

  I think they made eight trillion cents.

• 37:19Jordi Hays?

  Got it.

• 37:19John Coogan?

  Eight trillion pennies. PT needed a win.

• 37:22Jordi Hays?

  What was the return in basis points?

• 37:23John Coogan?

  He needed a win. He needed a win because apparently.

• 37:27Jordi Hays?

  What was the return in basis points?

• 37:29John Coogan?

  They're getting out with him on chess.com. Have you seen this?

• 37:31Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah. Do we need to play this?

• 37:33John Coogan?

  We need to play the video of a gentleman on Instagram who found Peter Thiel's chess.com account, played him and won.

• 37:42Jordi Hays?

  Do you have the video pulled up?

• 37:43John Coogan?

  Victory lap. It's in the timeline deeper down there. Can we, uh, can we pull up?

• 37:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, just sent it.

• 37:48John Coogan?

  Here we go. Um, it is from Tuck Gessner on Instagram. He says he found Peter Thiel's chess account, played him. I mean, we already spoiled it.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  On chess.com. I don't know if anybody knows about this, but Peter Thiel has a chess.com account with his real name, under which he's played over 50,000 games over the past 10 years. And the reason I know it's him is first of all, his friends are all these Silicon Valley and ex. Stanford chess founders and I put this account into a database called OpeningTree, which allows me to cross-reference his most played moves with his public tournament games that he played in the 90s. And it's all the same stuff. So our game went e4, e5, knight f3, knight f6. I played the Stafford Gambit and on move 6, he fell into a very basic opening.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Well, no, no, he didn't fall for the Gambit, but he fell for a classic blunder.

• 38:44Speaker 04

  And I just played knight takes e4 here. And the point is that when he takes back, played bishop takes f2, winning his queen by 4.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I see.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  So most players would just give up. They would just resign in this position, but Peter Thiel never gave up. And a few moves later, he made another very elementary mistake, played bishop takes a7. And this is the kind of move that you see beginners make. Very rarely does anybody over 2000 not see that you can just play b6 afterwards, which traps the bishop. And I'm just gonna scoop it up in a few moves. Even here, he didn't resign. He kept playing on until I checkmated him shortly thereafter. I find this really funny because Peter Thiel has a reputation being a sort of chess genius.

• 39:27Speaker 04

  So I wanted to take this opportunity to show the real Peter Thiel, who falls for basic opening traps and refuses to resign.

• 39:36Jordi Hays?

  Uh, here's the thing, here's the thing. Uh, Elon.

• 39:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Jordi Hays?

  Uh, never, never gives up.

• 39:42John Coogan?

  Ordinary guy. Proof that they're all ordinary guys.

• 39:45Jordi Hays?

  Elon never gives up, right? Famous picture of him standing there. Everything's in shambles, never gives up. Also makes elementary mistakes sometimes, picking it, you know, accusing the president of things, you know, on, you know, social media, right? Kind of an elementary mistake, you know, if you're a government contractor, right?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Lawsuits.

• 40:04Jordi Hays?

  That's right. That's right. Um, and so again, I think.

• 40:10Jordi Hays?

  PT never gives up, makes some elementary mistakes.

• 40:13John Coogan?

  There's less than there.

• 40:14Jordi Hays?

  Less than in there.

• 40:15John Coogan?

  Less than in there, for sure. Let's pull up this post from Andy showing a visual guide to the SpaceX IPO while I tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents. Whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows, Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish. So what is this saying? What's gonna happen here?

• 40:36Jordi Hays?

  This is technical analysis.

• 40:38John Coogan?

  Okay, this is technical analysis. And he's saying that it's gonna pop on IPO day, sell off for three straight years? And then go to the moon? Is that this? And every, he's basically saying that everyone's gonna be taking victory laps if the stock trades down in 2026, 2027, 2028, but then ultimately they will all be upset. I mean, there are some crazy articles out there that are like the rise and fall of Elon Musk a year ago. Like, he can't possibly come back from the reputational damage he's done to himself.

• 41:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, no one's buying the cars.

• 41:14John Coogan?

  Buying the cars. And it's like, well, they're buying the stocks. So, you know, it's gonna be okay, I guess.

• 41:20John Coogan?

  Founders funding investment at 200 million might be the best venture investment in history. A lot of that is just the holding to fruition, like, because the early investors in Google or Microsoft or Amazon, like, a lot of them distributed an IPO at like a $5 billion valuation.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Even some of the founders, right? Bill Gates.

• 41:41John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. He sold too early, right? Paper Hands.

• 41:44Jordi Hays?

  No, the only thing is I do think Masa hasn't beat, I think Masa hasn't beat with Alibaba. Cause it was like 20 million into 70 billion.

• 41:51John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 41:52Jordi Hays?

  On a shorter time horizon.

• 41:53John Coogan?

  Ooh, Musk, get mocked, mocked. Anyway.

• 41:57Jordi Hays?

  PT mocked again.

• 42:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, even more risk. McAllister Higgins says, I'm at the bottom of a multi-layer SPV.

• 42:06Jordi Hays?

  Son bought into Alibaba for 20 million in 2000. By the 2014 IPO, it was worth 75 billion.

• 42:13John Coogan?

  Okay, well, game's not over. It's young. They can make it all back. So, I'm at the bottom of a multi-layer SPV, and I'm looking forward to the SpaceX IPO in much the same way a golden retriever looks toward, looks forward to a car ride. Thrilled to be involved, no clue how cars work, unsure if going to the park or getting neutered. And Matt Grimm says, Godspeed, sir. It's actually so funny to be in that position where you're just, you just have no idea what you'll wind up getting. This change.

• 42:49Jordi Hays?

  This is a new, this is a new format, by the way.

• 42:51John Coogan?

  Yeah. Oh, wait. Oh, this whole golden retriever thing?

• 42:54Jordi Hays?

  No, like I'm predicting there's a bunch of other ways to apply this.

• 42:57John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I like it. I like it. Pick the next, the next post while I tell everyone about console. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR, and finance, while giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. Brad Gersner is sharing some historical performance of IPOs. Split-adjusted Nvidia IPO'd at 4 cents and is at 200 bucks today. Apple at 10 cents, 292 today. These big tech companies have all delivered fantastic returns. And the question is, why is he posting this today? Is he putting SpaceX in this category? I mean, one other Elon Musk company is in this category.

• 43:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 43:41John Coogan?

  That's certainly the pitch here.

• 43:43Jordi Hays?

  Not, not a super fair, not that he's comparing to SpaceX or trying to allude that there's any connection here, but all of these companies IPO'd before the private markets had evolved to capture. You know, massive amounts of the

• 44:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:05Jordi Hays?

  value creation.

• 44:06John Coogan?

  Amazon is a $2.5 trillion company. SpaceX is IPO-ing at 2.2 trillion. When Amazon IPOed, it was not as big as ExxonMobil. It was not jumping directly into the top five, top 10 biggest companies in the world. And so like, there's always this question of like, okay, where will, like, it's not, i- i- it's, it's always interesting when a company IPOs and you're like, oh, they could be a disruptor and they could flip something like, I was always thinking about this, like, Figma, obviously, up, stocks up and down, but like, there was a very clear like, well, what if Figma flips Adobe? Like, okay, you know, is that possible? Is that your thesis? Well, Figma IPOs at 20 and Figma's at, Adobe's at 100, like, you can see closing the gap

• 44:50John Coogan?

  and that's the 5X and that's probably what a lot of people were, were like, underwriting against, but it's hard, like, you really do need to expand the global economy, get to Mars, do all the crazy things to actually create a, a new class of, of company to get that type of return because if you're, if you're getting the Brad Gersoner style, you know, 100X, 1,000X post-IPO return, you're looking at a quadrillion dollar company.

• 45:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 45:14John Coogan?

  Which is 100 quid, 100 quadrillion doll, 100 quadrillion pennies, which is a lot.

• 45:19Jordi Hays?

  Can you imagine telling somebody that two years ago, that SpaceX in 2026 would be worth 2.3 trillion and Meta would be worth 1.4 trillion with Meta 200 billion of revenue growing 30% year over year?

• 45:36John Coogan?

  It's crazy.

• 45:39John Coogan?

  It's wild.

• 45:40Jordi Hays?

  Even Amazon being even in the same, being within striking distance.

• 45:46John Coogan?

  We've debated with friends about who's the GOAT, Elon, Bezos, how do you, how do you match them up? And we have a friend who's always like, well,

• 45:53Jordi Hays?

  And Amazon, Amazon owns,

• 45:55John Coogan?

  cash flow that-

• 45:56Jordi Hays?

  Amazon owns like roughly like somewhere like around 20% of Anthropic.

• 46:01John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:03Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, It is just, we get so desensitized to these large numbers.

• 46:09John Coogan?

  This is a special founder, special company, unique situation. Dan Primack is talking about the IPO pop. He says, if you view a typical IPO pop as 10%, then the bar for SpaceX is $162, which is the current indicated open, although it's been falling. Okay, so as.

• 46:28Jordi Hays?

  Fact check, false.

• 46:29John Coogan?

  Okay, explain.

• 46:31Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I mean, it's much higher than 162, right?

• 46:33John Coogan?

  Oh, so it's popped more than 20%.

• 46:35Jordi Hays?

  It's like at, I mean, what, yeah, 24%. Leave it to Tyler to make a stock chart that shows the price per share.

• 46:41John Coogan?

  That was my, I was like, I just want to see the market cap. No, we can flip it, we can flip it around. I like market caps. Anyway.

• 46:49Jordi Hays?

  I pulled up.

• 46:50John Coogan?

  Huge news for D gens.

• 46:51Jordi Hays?

  Approximate evaluation, uh, valuations that IPO for Nvidia was, uh, 430 million, fully diluted.

• 46:58John Coogan?

  Dollars?

• 46:59Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 47:00John Coogan?

  Or cents?

• 47:04Jordi Hays?

  Apple was 100, 1.3 billion.

• 47:08John Coogan?

  Dollars? Or cents?

• 47:12Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Microsoft was 777 million, market cap.

• 47:17John Coogan?

  77 million, what?

• 47:21Jordi Hays?

  Dollars or cents?

• 47:22John Coogan?

  The US dollars.

• 47:24Jordi Hays?

  Are dollars.

• 47:25John Coogan?

  Cause the real, the real move is to, is to like IPO in like Zimbabwe and cents or something. They're like, or German Reichmarks. Because then you're just like, yeah, I'm, I'm actually a trillion dollar company too. You're like, well, what, what would it be in, uh, in USD? And you're like, it's a $4 million.

• 47:42Jordi Hays?

  Point 01 cents.

• 47:43John Coogan?

  Point 01.

• 47:44Jordi Hays?

  Or point 01 dollars.

• 47:45John Coogan?

  Huge news for the D gens in the audience. There's already a SpaceX 2X levered ETF. 2X SpaceX exposure on day one. It's handed an AK-47 to a monkey, according to liquidity. It's happening, it's happening, folks.

• 48:02Jordi Hays?

  I saw this earlier and it looked like, like that ETF was trading before SpaceX was actually trading.

• 48:07John Coogan?

  Maybe they got expelled or through some SPV.

• 48:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I guess, I guess that's not.

• 48:10John Coogan?

  The defiance, defiance daily 2X SpaceX ETF seeks to provide 200% of SpaceX's daily performance. So they do it synthetically, they do it with a whole bunch of other instruments. There's a lot going on there. Let me tell you about Cisco, critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless, real-time experiences of new technology with Cisco.

• 48:31Jordi Hays?

  Uh, big shout out to our friends at 137 Ventures. Justin, Alex.

• 48:39John Coogan?

  They invested one time in SpaceX, three times in SpaceX, seven times.

• 48:42Jordi Hays?

  Four times.

• 48:43John Coogan?

  Seven times in SpaceX?

• 48:45Jordi Hays?

  Ten times.

• 48:45John Coogan?

  They invested 137 times in SpaceX, basically.

• 48:49Jordi Hays?

  Nominal determinism is actually crazy. Why are you called 137 Ventures? Because we're gonna invest in SpaceX 137 times. And it worked. It worked.

• 49:03John Coogan?

  They printed.

• 49:04Jordi Hays?

  The level of conviction.

• 49:05John Coogan?

  And Justin Fishner Wolfson has a profile in the New York Times, talking about his story, building that firm. And they do more than secondaries. They do more than SpaceX. Obviously, they're huge investors in all sorts of great companies. Many of them have been featured on the show, but SpaceX has stood out as a particularly interesting journey for them since they've been amassing ownership for 15 years. And they've done a fantastic job with that. The firm now owns more than 1% of SpaceX, worth roughly $20 billion at the expected 1.77 trillion valuation. So it's closer to 30 now. Congratulations.

• 49:47John Coogan?

  This will most likely define my career, he, Justin said in an interview this week. Congrats to Christian Garrett. Congrats to Justin and the rest of the team over there. Heard in the chats, I put $1 million SpaceX order through a private bank and just got filled. Only 50K, one twentieth of what this individual asked for. Most people I spoke to have gotten even less. We had some folks on the team put in orders for 20 shares, 50 shares, 100 shares and only get a small fraction of that. How much did you get, Tyler?

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Uh, I got 22.

• 50:21John Coogan?

  22 shares, but you requested more?

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yes. And then, yeah, I mean, we've had a lot of people that say they only got one share. Brutal.

• 50:28Jordi Hays?

  The one share wonder.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  That's almost worse than zero shares, because you can see it in your portfolio.

• 50:32John Coogan?

  Yeah. What if they could give you short interest? They're like, you asked for five shares, but we give you negative one share. We give you, we give you the inverse ETF, actually. It's over for you.

• 50:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I was, uh, I was surprised by this.

• 50:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:48Jordi Hays?

  Given the, given the offers that were, given the offers that were flying around, I got, uh, uh, offered like a $50 million allocation, obviously not, um, uh, uh, wasn't going to take that down myself, but, uh, I just, um.

• 51:06John Coogan?

  Wow, just say your risk off.

• 51:08Jordi Hays?

  Uh, no, I, but I, but I responded to the guy and I was like, I don't even know, I'm not even going to text anyone because like it feels like this is, there's like so much allocation available for everyone that it's kind of, it's just not even worth firing off texts.

• 51:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Jordi Hays?

  Um, but turns out there, uh, there was, there was a lot more demand than supply.

• 51:29John Coogan?

  Uh, it's, it's making its way through the, through the world, through the, through the iMessage DMs. Buddy needs to relax, says RJC. SpaceX IPO this week. Thoughts on SpaceX? SpaceX IPO. What are we thinking, boss? Who is this? It's Kyle. I was your Uber driver three months ago.

• 51:47Jordi Hays?

  Nick had a funny, uh, Nick had a, Nick got a funny text.

• 51:51John Coogan?

  Uber drivers don't get your phone number anymore. It all happens in the app. This is ridiculous.

• 51:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Maybe they had a good conversation. They exchanged numbers.

• 51:56John Coogan?

  Yeah. And also these just like, like the rendering of the text, it doesn't look iMessage enough to me. I don't believe it, but it's funny.

• 52:04Jordi Hays?

  Nick did get a funny text this morning.

• 52:06John Coogan?

  What'd he say?

• 52:06Jordi Hays?

  From somebody who is, uh, certainly not, uh,

• 52:11John Coogan?

  A professional.

• 52:12Jordi Hays?

  Not a professional investor saying, texting him advice, being like, you want to get in, but then you want to get out. You want to get in and get out. Get in, get out, get out, get in, but then get out by the end of the day. And Nick's sitting there with his one chair.

• 52:30Jordi Hays?

  Just getting like, potentially like, I don't know, might end up being the right advice, but probably like.

• 52:36John Coogan?

  One of my favorite things is the retail traders who focus on like, uh, apophynic, apophynic interpretations of charts, chartology. Have you seen this stuff?

• 52:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I was doing this. I was, I was drawing the lines this morning.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can see.

• 52:49John Coogan?

  So there's a whole trend of like, okay, this is the classic head and shoulders pattern. This is the camel. This is the dromedary camel. This is the elephant pattern. You got a giraffe formation following there. Clearly going to trade up after this.

• 53:01Jordi Hays?

  It's like weather.

• 53:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, weather reporting. It's good. You're not Mike, so I don't know if we're going to hear you. Anyway, let me tell you about Figma. Agents, meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with Design System. Context. Let's go to the Figma Big Board.

• 53:22John Coogan?

  We're gonna brand it in just a little bit.

• 53:25Jordi Hays?

  Whole plane watching the SpaceX IPO, except for one dude watching Avatar.

• 53:30John Coogan?

  This is a good meme. I've seen this before because it was about the Knicks game, I think.

• 53:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that was the original photo.

• 53:36John Coogan?

  It was interesting. I was expecting SpaceX IPO to make the the front page of the Wall Street Journal. It did not. It also didn't make it to the front page of the Financial Times. I imagine it will tomorrow or Monday.

• 53:47Jordi Hays?

  How?

• 53:47John Coogan?

  But North America's World Cup kicks off in Mexico. The World Cup is a bigger national, international news.

• 53:53Jordi Hays?

  For the Wall Street Journal?

• 53:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 53:56Jordi Hays?

  The Journal of Wall Street, John?

• 53:57John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 53:58Jordi Hays?

  They couldn't have predicted that, hey, there might be the biggest IPO of all time.

• 54:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's interesting because normally, normally, things get get kicked out of the front page.

• 54:06Jordi Hays?

  Chat sees a turtle head forming on the chart.

• 54:12John Coogan?

  It's a classic been to wrong formation or something.

• 54:17Jordi Hays?

  They're also saying that an Iranian trillionaire is about 726,000 USD.

• 54:24John Coogan?

  There you go. There you go. Well, let's give it up for Nikita Beer. Generational run, sold two companies, and then did a third company, didn't even need to acqui-hire it to get this, you know, a fantastic outcome here with SpaceX. He got a DM from Sean McGuire about two years ago, a little over two years ago. Sean says, hey, I have a crazy opportunity for you. And Nikita just says, I'm in. I like this. It's such a great way to respond to just, because you say, I'm in, that's not going to be binding if you don't want to do it. It's just a way to say, I, you know, I want to hear more.

• 55:03John Coogan?

  But it was clearly to come to X, the everything app, work on a bunch of innovative features there which have shipped, and the app has gotten great, and we love it and use it all the time.

• 55:13Jordi Hays?

  More addicted than ever, Nikita.

• 55:14John Coogan?

  And then jump into XAI, and then jump into SpaceX, and then be at the Nasdaq for this IPO. What a great run.

• 55:22Jordi Hays?

  And.

• 55:23John Coogan?

  Nikita.

• 55:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, super happy for Nikita. He jumped into the internet's dive bar.

• 55:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Jordi Hays?

  He started getting into some fistfights.

• 55:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:32Jordi Hays?

  You know, swinging.

• 55:33John Coogan?

  There were prediction markets about like, is Nikita gonna get fired this week and stuff? And he figured out how to

• 55:38Jordi Hays?

  He figured it out.

• 55:38John Coogan?

  Deliver more and more value, keep people happy. And he kept, I think the key thing was that he never, he would be, he would make aggressive like, and like, user hostile moves. But they were always for the people that always ignored, that were annoying to the power users. So it would be like, there's a thousand people that are upset with him.

• 55:56Jordi Hays?

  Two-minute response time.

• 55:58John Coogan?

  Really good.

• 55:59Jordi Hays?

  Lesson in there.

• 55:59John Coogan?

  Extremely online. So he would, he would be like, oh, there's thousands of people that are mad at Nikita. And I'd be like, what are they mad about? Like, I'm not mad. And it's like, oh, they banned bots who are operating from North Korea, who have been hacking cryptocurrency schemes or something like that. I'm like, yeah, actually, I'm glad that they're mad at Nikita. Nikita's doing the right thing. This is good. And so, you know, he picked fights, he picked a lot of fights with some very broad audience.

• 56:22Jordi Hays?

  A guy who is mad about the revenue share program and all he says every morning is, "Good morning." Comment to like, a million posts. And the other thing, after, after the acquisition, a lot of people like, were speculating, oh, oh, is TVPN, are they gonna shadow ban TVPN?

• 56:46John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 56:46Jordi Hays?

  A good proof point today, Elon Musk was liked one of our posts this morning. And so, we were never shadow banned.

• 56:54John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 56:54Jordi Hays?

  I genuinely, I genuinely always trusted Nikita and the whole X team to not put their thumb on the scale. We never saw anything in the data, so we were never like, worried about it. But they've been fair and we're happy to be on this platform as crazy and chaotic as it is. And we're happy for their success. So.

• 57:20John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds, online, in-store, on mobile, on social, on marketplace, and now with AI agents.

• 57:30Jordi Hays?

  Here's a good post.

• 57:31John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 57:31Jordi Hays?

  Peter Diamandis. He says, "People ask me how I stay so optimistic. The honest answer, I read the data, not the headlines." I have a feeling I know what data he was reading. John, you know what data?

• 57:46John Coogan?

  What data?

• 57:47Jordi Hays?

  Morgan Stanley.

• 57:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 57:49Jordi Hays?

  Who said they see a path for SpaceX to generate half a trillion dollars in revenue by 2030. If you're looking at that data, how can you not be optimistic?

• 57:58John Coogan?

  Path is a path. Path is a path. The flip side is that this, we're getting in the world, you know, Nvidia earnings are holding up the global economy. Ken Kurtland says the entire world after the SpaceX IPO will say, "Every society is one Falcon 9 failure away from chaos," because people will be watching the SpaceX earnings. SpaceX launches very intently. I wonder what the correlation between SpaceX launch setbacks or successes will be with the stock, because we're at a point where the actual launch business is less material to where earnings come in, where valuation comes in. I feel like the

• 58:39John Coogan?

  stock, you know, has, you know, throughout two decades has been able to, I mean, there's been very rough moments, obviously, with early failures, but in general, you know, if Starship, the Starship program gets delayed, that hasn't been something where it's like, "Oh, SpaceX is going to do a down round now." It's just been like, "Oh, that's a bummer. They're going to have to invest more." But a Falcon 9 launch failure is not that material when they're launching so many of them. It's a funny idea, but I disagree with the actual takeaway there. Anyway, let me tell you about Codex and the Road to Olympia Expansion Pack, which is sponsoring this episode. It takes your training split and refactors it

• 59:22John Coogan?

  into production-grade hypertrophy code. No more junk volume, no more spaghetti programming, no more deprecated rear delt functions, just clean, scalable mass architecture with automated progressive overload, test coverage for calves, and one critical warning: build failed insufficient carbs. The Codex Road to Olympia Expansion Pack is available now. That's a good one.

• 59:44Jordi Hays?

  That's a good one. Well, John, it's noon.

• 59:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:47Jordi Hays?

  I think it's time.

• 59:47John Coogan?

  Okay, okay, let's reveal our predictions. So, we all said, can we do it in percentages? Or I guess we should do it in market caps? What's that?

• 59:58Jordi Hays?

  Uh, price per share.

• 59:59John Coogan?

  Price per share. Okay. What did, uh, what was the price per share when it IPO?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  135.

• 1:00:05John Coogan?

  135. Okay, so I said 0%. I said 135. I said the bankers, this is, the funniest outcome is that the bankers got it perfectly correct. The market is perfectly efficient. No pop, no sell-off, completely flat line on the chart.

• 1:00:23Jordi Hays?

  That's, that's a very Coogan bit, but like, you don't want that.

• 1:00:29John Coogan?

  No, you want a 20% pop.

• 1:00:30Jordi Hays?

  You want a little bit of a pop, and I would say they've done that, like, pretty much, uh, they've gotten it very, very, very close, right? Currently sitting at a 24% pop.

• 1:00:41John Coogan?

  24% pop.

• 1:00:43Jordi Hays?

  24% pop.

• 1:00:44John Coogan?

  167. Okay, so, uh, what did you say? What was your percentage?

• 1:00:48Jordi Hays?

  I was...

• 1:00:50John Coogan?

  I had 0%.

• 1:00:51Jordi Hays?

  Too...

• 1:00:51John Coogan?

  It's at 24%.

• 1:00:52Jordi Hays?

  I was too bullish. I was too bullish. I, I was expecting somewhere around 2, $183 to share by 2 minutes ago.

• 1:01:01John Coogan?

  $183.

• 1:01:01Jordi Hays?

  We're currently at 167.

• 1:01:03John Coogan?

  Okay, so what percentage is that?

• 1:01:05Jordi Hays?

  I, I thought it would open, I thought it was gonna open above 170. I thought it was gonna open above 170 and then run more.

• 1:01:14John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:14Jordi Hays?

  Turns out it opened in the 60s, dropped down to around 158, and then built back up from there.

• 1:01:19John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:19Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I was off.

• 1:01:21John Coogan?

  So I had, so I had 0%, you had 33%, it's at 24%.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  I was just right. I went, uh, 31%, which would be 176.

• 1:01:30John Coogan?

  176.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  So I'm a little high, a little high.

• 1:01:32John Coogan?

  So you got the...

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  But I win.

• 1:01:33John Coogan?

  You win, you win. And, and does everyone want to know what Tyler wins, what the, what the, uh, what the prize was today? The prize is that whoever wins gets to do one extra Ramp ad read. It's such a treat.

• 1:01:47Jordi Hays?

  No way.

• 1:01:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:48Jordi Hays?

  That is special.

• 1:01:49John Coogan?

  And I get to, I hoard them every day, so here you go Tyler.

• 1:01:52Jordi Hays?

  I got it.

• 1:01:52John Coogan?

  Feel free to read the Ramp ad to the audience.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Ramp. Time is money, save both. Easy Dude's corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more.

• 1:02:01John Coogan?

  All in one place. There we go. That was great. I hope you enjoyed that Tyler. Don't get too comfortable with that.

• 1:02:07Jordi Hays?

  Pitch back to Tyler.

• 1:02:08John Coogan?

  There we go.

• 1:02:09Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 1:02:10John Coogan?

  There we go.

• 1:02:10Jordi Hays?

  Um, funniest outcome is the most likely.

• 1:02:14John Coogan?

  The funniest outcome would be 10 trillion or 0 trillion.

• 1:02:17Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 1:02:18John Coogan?

  No?

• 1:02:18Jordi Hays?

  The chat says it.

• 1:02:19John Coogan?

  What is it?

• 1:02:20Jordi Hays?

  6.7.

• 1:02:21John Coogan?

  Oh, 6.7.

• 1:02:21Jordi Hays?

  Ended up at 167.

• 1:02:23John Coogan?

  Okay, yeah, I did have that, I did have that down. One of the things I was gonna do is like...

• 1:02:27Jordi Hays?

  And that's like, that is, that is the most funny outcome if you're 12 years old. Like, I can't think of...

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  First stock split, it goes to 420.

• 1:02:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  Right? That's pretty good.

• 1:02:37John Coogan?

  Yeah. Uh, well, there are some other stories that we should run through now that the SpaceX IPO has settled a little bit.

• 1:02:46Jordi Hays?

  Allison's old cup boat is on the market.

• 1:02:49John Coogan?

  Ooh, that's big.

• 1:02:50Jordi Hays?

  And it is a 1999 Custom International America's Cup class, USCG certified 20 packs. It's 84 feet. It is listed for $149,000. This is a fantastic looking boat and, uh, they're at, they're, they're giving it away. Uh, the comments say it has been severely chopped up so it can operate as a tourist boat.

• 1:03:22Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, anyways, please, one of you, uh, in the, in the chat or listening later, please pick this up. And let's slap some Ramp logos on it.

• 1:03:33John Coogan?

  Love it.

• 1:03:34Jordi Hays?

  Let's ride around. We'll do, uh, we'll do a live show from the, from the boat.

• 1:03:41John Coogan?

  This is great. James Murphy, the CEO of LMNT, have we not had him on the show somehow? Because we get LMNT, we drink them all the time in the studio. Anyway, he filed a lawsuit against a company called Oasis. He says Oasis misled consumers knowingly, repeatedly, the case against, the case with LMNT is straightforward, it's linked below, but this case is about more than that to me, it's about fabricated fear for profit. This is about a group of online health creators that have lost their way terrorizing people, especially new parents of young kids and those with vulnerable conditions. There are hundreds of accounts now manufacturing scientific sounding content, often with AI, that they know almost nothing

• 1:04:24John Coogan?

  about. Oasis has misled millions of people about hundreds of products and our day in court is coming. You might have seen these viral posts where sort of an up and coming brand, an RX bar, David protein, or an LMNT, or any of these others, will screenshot like, something that's like, okay, even if you're like, I don't like that particular ingredient, it's like generally a health food, and then it'll be like, Cheetos or Doritos is like 10 times healthier, or something like that. And so, that was going viral and people were noticing that, wait, all the health foods are getting really poorly rated if they're independent brands, challenger brands, and things like Coca-Cola, beer, whiskey, alcohols

• 1:05:06John Coogan?

  were, had like 99 no problems, and it seemed like there was a lot of, a lot of potential hallucinations in the data, a lot of, you know, less rigor. And so, I believe Quinn Emanuel has been retained for this lawsuit, and it should be pretty crazy. James Murphy shares more. He says, "I keep hearing from more companies that have been harmed by Oasis than other fear-maxing accounts, that misrepresent testing." So Oasis would claim to test the products for different ingredients, different harmful substances, put that on a website.

• 1:05:37Jordi Hays?

  And for what it's worth, they weren't actually doing their own testing.

• 1:05:40John Coogan?

  Okay, they weren't.

• 1:05:41Jordi Hays?

  They were taking test results that the brands had published.

• 1:05:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:45Jordi Hays?

  And then misreading the results.

• 1:05:48John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:05:49Jordi Hays?

  And publishing. So at one point, at one point, you know, and disclaimer, I know James very well. I I I know Cormac Cormac at one point, the founder of Oasis was considering doing PMF or die.

• 1:06:06John Coogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:06:06Jordi Hays?

  Not for Oasis, but yet another idea. It didn't make sense for him to do because Oasis was, you know, growing and already at at some scale. And I think that Cormac gen gen sort of generally has good intentions, but

• 1:06:27Jordi Hays?

  has created what I think is a system that that ultimately profits off of creating massive fear around products that people love. Products that are made by many entrepreneurs that are friends of mine that I trust. Of products that I, you know, use every single day, thinking like kettle and fire.

• 1:06:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:51Jordi Hays?

  Element, things like that.

• 1:06:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, kettle and fire got a really low rating, something like.

• 1:06:55Jordi Hays?

  They got a, I think of maybe a one out of 10, one out of 100 at one point. Which which again, yeah, so anyway, so he like has ended up in a cycle where like the more fear and controversy that he creates, the more app downloads he drives, the more subscription revenues that he drives. And it's created a very vicious cycle Cormac has openly admitted that the way to go viral online is to be divisive, to be controversial. And so he just basically picks popular brands and and goes after them, right? And so with Element is a good example.

• 1:07:34Jordi Hays?

  He like fully misread the results, put out a bunch of super viral videos about it, left them up for over a year. While again, there's there's views coming in, Element is suffering, you know, harm from that. James has. If you read some of his posts, he's talked about this, like you get, you get like way more lead from having like a clean organic salad than like a lot of, you know, lead ends up in like parts per billion.

• 1:08:07John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's so low. It's in everything. It's in the air.

• 1:08:09Jordi Hays?

  Everything in biology is about concentration.

• 1:08:12John Coogan?

  Yeah. You can have like one part per trillion of like cyanide and that can be healthier for you than having, drinking, you know, a hundred gallons of water. Because if you drink too much water, you will die. Right? And these things matter. And so just, just keyword searching for particular substances is not enough.

• 1:08:33Jordi Hays?

  And I went, I read through the entire, the entire complaint. And again, these are allegations. It's up to the court and the judge to determine what's factual. But ultimately, ultimately, my personal view is that it's not looking good for

• 1:08:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:54Jordi Hays?

  Oasis and Cormac. I think like, sort of, they claim that they're, they scaled faster than their quality control.

• 1:09:03John Coogan?

  Which sometimes happens.

• 1:09:04Jordi Hays?

  But at the same time, I don't think that that is a good answer when you're knowingly leaving up content that is damaging companies and you're profiting off of that damage for literally over a year. And this is just one brand. And so there's been hundreds of brands that have been damaged. They added, using what I think are like vibe-coded rating system, they added hundreds of thousands of products without actually checking them. And so ultimately, it's like, it's one thing, James has had issues. Element has had issues with this company for, I want to say now,

• 1:09:49Jordi Hays?

  According to the complaint, like 15 months or something like that. So it's not like he had some issue and immediately was like,

• 1:09:55John Coogan?

  People were DMing, founders were probably DMing immediately being like, wait, what?

• 1:09:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So they've, they've gone back and forth for a long time.

• 1:10:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Jordi Hays?

  Cormac hasn't backed down.

• 1:10:04John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and so this wasn't something like slight issue boom lawsuit. This was like, tried to resolve it over the course of a year.

• 1:10:13John Coogan?

  Uh, kettle and fire getting a

• 1:10:15Jordi Hays?

  And you can't like, you can't spread misinformation about companies for that long in that way.

• 1:10:23John Coogan?

  Without getting a phone call from Quinn Emanuel.

• 1:10:26Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, I mean, ultimately it's like the worst. If, uh, if you're going to get sued, it's literally the worst person to have on the other side. Like, um, uh, it is not, uh, they are, you know, we've had Sean Quinn, we've had the founder, uh, here on the show with us. He's the most feared.

• 1:10:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, yeah, I don't, I don't know how this gets resolved.

• 1:10:51John Coogan?

  So I understand how the brands were harmed, like kettle and fire had a one out of a hundred score. Uh, I hilariously like the Miller High Life glass bottle, 40 ounce malt liquor beer had an 81 out of a hundred. Uh, and so you can imagine how kettle and

• 1:11:07Jordi Hays?

  And to Cormac's defense.

• 1:11:09John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:11:10Jordi Hays?

  In Cormac's defense, he claims that different categories get different scores.

• 1:11:14John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:11:15Jordi Hays?

  But that is not how a consumer

• 1:11:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Jordi Hays?

  Going to experience.

• 1:11:18John Coogan?

  Because like as a consumer. Yeah. As a consumer, I swi- even though I love Justin, I switched from kettle and fire to Miller High Life. And I was, and I was cooking.

• 1:11:26Jordi Hays?

  For your daily protein.

• 1:11:28John Coogan?

  Exactly. And I actually switched.

• 1:11:30Jordi Hays?

  And you were heating it up on the stove like soup?

• 1:11:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, I would cook everything with it. I'd make, I'd use it as a stock like I use kettle and fire.

• 1:11:38Jordi Hays?

  So you were instead of, instead of going for kettle and fire, which is like a clean source of protein.

• 1:11:43John Coogan?

  It was a big debate at Thanksgiving last year where I insisted that my whole family used Miller High Life.

• 1:11:48Jordi Hays?

  Putting it on the stove, putting scoops of whey protein in it.

• 1:11:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:11:52Jordi Hays?

  To kind of recreate something like a bone broth.

• 1:11:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:55Jordi Hays?

  With healthier.

• 1:11:55John Coogan?

  And I thought I was, I thought I was getting 81 times the health benefit. So I don't know. Maybe there should be a, uh, maybe there should be a.

• 1:12:05Jordi Hays?

  Can you hit the, uh, fa?

• 1:12:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, Mike's Hard Lemonade also got an 81 and Monster The Beast Hard Pink Poison can got 70. I actually switched from Element to Mike's Hard Lemonade as like a pre-workout and

• 1:12:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:21John Coogan?

  I think I have a case to join the the the the class action if there is one for the

• 1:12:27Jordi Hays?

  I don't know that there's a class action yet, but here's the thing, you've done substantial amount of brand damage to potentially hundreds of brands on your platform.

• 1:12:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:37Jordi Hays?

  Which has its own damages associated with it while you've been

• 1:12:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:41Jordi Hays?

  profiting off of it. You know Cormac talks about their MRR, they're doing hundreds of thousands of dollars a month of revenue.

• 1:12:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:51Jordi Hays?

  And yeah, I'm interested to see how it resolves. The ultimately

• 1:12:59John Coogan?

  Making hundreds of thousands, you have to put some respect on his name for getting, for making hundreds of thousands of dollars, switching consumers from Bone Broth to Miller Highlight. Like you can't not smile.

• 1:13:11Jordi Hays?

  It would have been, it would have been

• 1:13:12John Coogan?

  It's rags to riches story.

• 1:13:13Jordi Hays?

  It would have been, if you told me that was possible, I wouldn't have believed you.

• 1:13:18John Coogan?

  It's absolutely wild.

• 1:13:18Jordi Hays?

  No, but you've, you know, the result of

• 1:13:23Jordi Hays?

  the last year is that millions of people have

• 1:13:26John Coogan?

  Yeah, seen

• 1:13:27Jordi Hays?

  misinformation, are more scared.

• 1:13:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:31Jordi Hays?

  There's very real reasons. Like I walk into the gas station

• 1:13:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:33Jordi Hays?

  and I'm on high alert. I'm like, everything in here wants to kill me.

• 1:13:36John Coogan?

  Just, just give me the Miller Highlight.

• 1:13:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I got the, I got the blinders on.

• 1:13:41John Coogan?

  Forty ounce, I don't want anything that's bad for me.

• 1:13:43Jordi Hays?

  No, I think like there are a lot of consumer packaged goods

• 1:13:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:47Jordi Hays?

  that are effectively poisoned.

• 1:13:49John Coogan?

  Of course.

• 1:13:49Jordi Hays?

  But when you build a business.

• 1:13:51John Coogan?

  Wait, you mean like literally poison? Are you talking about the the Monster Energy Pink Poison can? Because that's the flavor of that particular product.

• 1:13:59Jordi Hays?

  The one that got, it got a 60 or 70?

• 1:14:01John Coogan?

  It got a 71 out of 100. Much better for you than Element, you apparently. Pink Poison can is wild.

• 1:14:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, now, I, I would, I guess my, my

• 1:14:17Jordi Hays?

  I don't know, you know, again, again, to Steelman Cormac.

• 1:14:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:22Jordi Hays?

  He seems to be like hiring more people. They've never, to my knowledge, had any like scientists or any, anyone on the team.

• 1:14:33Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and so getting some of those, getting like a food scientist on board. Uh, I think they've taken down some listings.

• 1:14:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's hard because if you, if you put up a listing and that shows up in SEO for a while, like, and someone goes to an authoritative webpage, learns what they think is a fact, just taking it down, like you're not able to actually reach that person and correct the record. You know, the community notes feature on X is like pretty good, but it's hard because like, if you didn't interact with that post and then it gets, and then it gets a community note later, that's probably not going to resurface unless it's such a big story that it's like, oh, we all thought this thing and it's actually different.

• 1:15:11Jordi Hays?

  Posts that you spend a lot of time on do not resurface unless a quote of it goes like.

• 1:15:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. It needs to be its own story, which in this case it is.

• 1:15:20Jordi Hays?

  Especially on Instagram, which doesn't even have like a quote functionality, which is where.

• 1:15:25John Coogan?

  It happens sometimes when, when there's like, there's some, there's some idea that's going viral and then the debunk is so satisfying and such good content that everyone sort of updates collectively, but that's rare.

• 1:15:37Jordi Hays?

  And I ultimately, I, I, I feel, again, there's, there's hundreds of companies that have experienced what it's like to be on the receiving end of like, you know, a platform that doesn't fully understand the category that they're operating in.

• 1:15:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:54Jordi Hays?

  Where they're sitting there being like, I put two years into developing like the best possible version that I could ever make of this product.

• 1:16:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Jordi Hays?

  Like going above and beyond and I'm being raided. Like ninety percent less than Pink Poison from Monsters. Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's, it's like, I do believe that there's probably been hundreds of millions of dollars of damage done, uh, and damage done to the best actors in the space. Like, as a, as somebody that likes trying new CPG products, like, I will often find that there's like a window of time. Yeah. It's usually like ten years before something like falls off, right? It's like founder starts it. It's like very mission driven. It's obsessed with quality. Uh, they, they get a lot of customers because people love the product and like you can just feel

• 1:16:47Jordi Hays?

  that the founder is like obsessed. Mm-hmm. And like, I will, I love buying products where I know the person. I'm like, do I trust this person? Mm-hmm. Uh, I know, you know, James quite, quite well. I know, you know, Justin. Yeah. Uh, uh, even better. And it's like, if I know these guys are giving their products to their family and I know how obsessed they are with health, I know they have done everything they possibly could have to make the best possible product in the category. And so, uh, for, for entrepreneurs like that to be on the receiving end, while big CPG just gets a total pass on pretty much seemingly everything. Yeah.

• 1:17:28Jordi Hays?

  Uh, is just like, it is served, it is doing the exact, it is having the exact opposite effect that you would want to have on the category, which is like hurting the good actors and propping up the bad actors. And like, it wouldn't be unreasonable to, to think that the entire platform was a, was a front for big CPG to try to keep down upstarts. I'm not saying that at all. I don't believe that at all, but, um.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  I think to, to Quormax's credit, he does have a pretty cool Ferrari.

• 1:18:00John Coogan?

  Does he?

• 1:18:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Yeah, he at one point, he at one point says he wished they were rented.

• 1:18:05John Coogan?

  They were renting because they bought Ferraris. Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, it's rough. But I'm just, I'm gonna take the other side and say I'm glad that

• 1:18:11Jordi Hays?

  Cormac, you're welcome.

• 1:18:13John Coogan?

  Got some promotion.

• 1:18:14Jordi Hays?

  You're welcome. Uh, uh, again, I don't think he has bad intentions, but

• 1:18:20John Coogan?

  Oh, he's moving a little bit too fast, breaking a few too many things.

• 1:18:23Jordi Hays?

  Breaking a lot of things. Breaking the trust of a lot of consumers and I think some fantastic companies. And Cormac's welcome to come on the show.

• 1:18:35John Coogan?

  Talk about it. Talk about the rebirth, rebuild the next generation.

• 1:18:39Jordi Hays?

  And I'm not sure that, I'm not sure, I don't, I don't necessarily think that the company should. I believe that Oasis now is losing trust from consumers. Uh, for very good reason, right? They've been misled for a very long time. Uh, so I'm not convinced that the company should continue. Cormac is like a very talented.

• 1:19:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, builder.

• 1:19:03Jordi Hays?

  Builder, like he's done a lot with a small team. I would like to see him apply that skillset. Like if you want to go viral a lot.

• 1:19:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:11Jordi Hays?

  Like, maybe health is not the right category.

• 1:19:17John Coogan?

  It's hard. It's hard. Sleep, diet and exercise gets you a lot. All the controversial stuff, all the fringe stuff, you, you bump into good content not always being aligned with like good science or like what's legal.

• 1:19:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:31John Coogan?

  Anyway, uh, do you see this new YC company? They're calling it the last agent your company will ever need. It's name, the company company. This is right out of your playbook. The company, company of New York or San Francisco, they went full company, the company company.

• 1:19:50John Coogan?

  Very funny.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  Good domain, too.

• 1:19:52Jordi Hays?

  I hope this is the last.

• 1:19:53John Coogan?

  Really?

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54John Coogan?

  The company dot company?

• 1:19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:56Jordi Hays?

  It is so funny how how long this this naming convention will never die. I mean, uh, shot well was at the aerospace corporation.

• 1:20:05John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:06Jordi Hays?

  Which sounds like a fake company and like a movie. Um, but it's a real company that's been operating since nineteen sixty.

• 1:20:12John Coogan?

  The space exploration company. Uh, we got to hit the gong for Zane's dad, Zane, uh, from Knox Metal. He's been on the show and he has some fantastic news. His dad just beat cancer yesterday. He says one tough cookie.

• 1:20:32John Coogan?

  To Zane's dad and I'm excited for his dad. I'm excited for Zane. I'm also excited about this gong because if you zoom in on this gong, it's sponsored. It's a sponsored gong in the hospital. Strickland Auto Group paid for the gong in the in the hospital. When you beat cancer, you ring the Strickland Auto Group, uh, the Strickland Auto Group gong. And if you zoom in below, you can actually see that there are more sponsors. They have their own logo bar with Stratford Toyota, Strickland's Auto Mart and Strickland's another another company in the Strickland portfolio.

• 1:21:12John Coogan?

  And so I love that this local business, uh, went in and partnered with this hospital to celebrate cancer survivors. I thought it was really, really cool. Have you seen this guy who goes on? It looks like a local radio show and he calls people pretending to be an AI agent. Have you seen these? Okay, we got to pull this one up. Uh, Kai, the AI guy, very funny, and it really, uh, encapsulates a lot of people, uh, who frustrations with AI. Uh, this one I thought was particularly fun. Let's play this.

• 1:21:46Speaker 05

  I'm here. Great. To ensure you are human, please open your fridge. Now, close the fridge. Oh, you gotta go like from the beginning. Awesome. You're verified. Because he introduces himself. Kai, your LG AI representative, calling to speak with customer Natalie. If this is you, please say yes or press 1. Uh, yes. Thank you. We're calling due to a notification from your new LG SmartFridge. But first, let's verify your identity. Are you currently next to your fridge? No. Please go to your fridge so we can continue. Okay, I'm here. Great. To ensure you are human, please open your fridge. Now, close the fridge. Awesome. You're verified. We received a notification from your LG SmartFridge indicating

• 1:22:30Speaker 05

  a high level of use. Do you know how many times you opened your fridge yesterday? Uh, I, I don't. Please guess. Um, 10 times? Incorrect. Please guess again. Okay, 20 times. Yesterday, you opened your LG SmartFridge 27 times. Great job. You're not just setting records, you're breaking them. You're in the top 1% of LG SmartFridge users. Congratulations. Okay. Your LG SmartFridge notified us that you have never once said thank you after opening and closing the doors. Is this true? Uh, I, I don't know. It is. Have you not said thank you because A, you are not pleased with your LG SmartFridge,

• 1:23:13Speaker 05

  B, there is always food in your mouth, or C, you were raised to be rude? Excuse me? Close. I believe you meant to say, "I'm sorry, but great job." Okay, can I speak to a real human, please? Connecting you with a sales representative. Sorry, all our lines are busy right now. But not me. Kai, your LG AI SmartFridge correspondent, what can I help you with today? What do you mean? You called me.

• 1:23:40John Coogan?

  Calling people is AI.

• 1:23:41Jordi Hays?

  Prank calls are kind of a lost art. Very fake, but very good. Good to bring prank calls.

• 1:23:45John Coogan?

  Oh, you think that's entirely fake?

• 1:23:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:47John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 1:23:47Jordi Hays?

  That's a bit.

• 1:23:48John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 1:23:49Jordi Hays?

  That's a bit, for sure.

• 1:23:50John Coogan?

  You, you think that she's in on it? Because like, you can do prank calls as a, as a radio show host, right?

• 1:23:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but like, yeah, oh, we just, we, we found people's data that had LG smart fridges.

• 1:24:04John Coogan?

  No, no, no. You call ten people, yeah, yeah, I know that.

• 1:24:08Jordi Hays?

  It's like, I know this person has an LG smart fridge.

• 1:24:10John Coogan?

  Or you call twenty people until you get someone that has an LG smart fridge, then you do the bit.

• 1:24:14Jordi Hays?

  The intonation in her voice at the end exposed it all.

• 1:24:18John Coogan?

  Also, for social media, everything could be fake. Anyway, uh, do you think this video of the six-foot-tall humanoids fighting is fake? Do you think this is a real video or a fake video? Because this poster says, "Real Steel is here." And it's not going well. These humanoids are, are really struggling. It lost its head? That's pretty impressive. Okay, wow, they're really kicking each other.

• 1:24:45John Coogan?

  It's such a wild thing to watch. This one isn't as ridiculous as many of them. Oh, that's a good pop-up, even after losing a head. What does the head do if it's just, uh, cosmetic? It's an interesting twist. Google is running new nationwide ads for, uh, T, uh, on TV for Waymo. Waymo says its autonomous driver is statistically ten X safer than a human driver in the cities it's served, built to never blink, tire, or get distracted. Let's play this ad and give it a review.

• 1:25:16Speaker 03

  It injure over a million of us every year.

• 1:25:21Speaker 03

  Because we're human.

• 1:25:24John Coogan?

  That wasn't human driving.

• 1:25:25Speaker 03

  Complex.

• 1:25:26John Coogan?

  Oh. They're taking shots. This is a hit piece on human drivers.

• 1:25:31Speaker 03

  Never gets tired or angry.

• 1:25:36John Coogan?

  Or has a few too many. Too many, they're taking shots of the drunk drivers in the audience.

• 1:25:39Jordi Hays?

  Are they gonna pan, are they gonna pan to the tele?

• 1:25:42John Coogan?

  Right now, there's someone watching TV.

• 1:25:44Jordi Hays?

  Are they gonna pan to the teleop center? Where?

• 1:25:48John Coogan?

  That's the ace of the sleeve, that's not gonna happen.

• 1:25:53Jordi Hays?

  Where it's like a brightly lit room of like doctors and experts watching each screen, AI researchers.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Is it illegal if, if your teleop driver is drunk?

• 1:26:02John Coogan?

  I have no idea. I don't think there's any laws at all for any of this, really. It's all pretty uncharted. I think it's all very case by case negotiations, city by city.

• 1:26:16Jordi Hays?

  Well, Manitas says, "It brings me no joy to report I spent a year wondering why I was constantly sleepy and had a low sleep score on my Whoop. That was totally cured by simply stop wearing the Whoop."

• 1:26:27John Coogan?

  By simply stop wearing, stopping wearing the Whoop.

• 1:26:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And X is turning this into a whole news story, ditching Whoop tracker cured financiers' sleep worries.

• 1:26:39John Coogan?

  Financiers?

• 1:26:42John Coogan?

  That's hilarious. Yeah, I mean, I've, I've, I've taken this take before, like, like, you wanna track your sleep, like, are you sleepy?

• 1:26:51John Coogan?

  Like, think about it.

• 1:26:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:53John Coogan?

  Come up with an answer. That's your sleep score.

• 1:26:55Jordi Hays?

  What's funny is like, I never actually care about the score.

• 1:26:57John Coogan?

  No.

• 1:26:58Jordi Hays?

  The score takes care of itself.

• 1:26:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, but with eight sleep, I like the cooling, like, that's nice.

• 1:27:02Jordi Hays?

  Well, and with eight sleep, I'm actually interested in like, how is my REM versus deep sleep trending?

• 1:27:07John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 1:27:08Jordi Hays?

  Things like that, resting heart rate, all, all these other things. I never am like, oh, what's my score today?

• 1:27:14John Coogan?

  Oh, the score, unless we were competing, because then that was fun.

• 1:27:16Speaker 01

  It seems like one of those like, uh, good hearts laws, like things, right? Where if you like, oh, I need to get a better sleep score, then it's, it doesn't like work as well.

• 1:27:25John Coogan?

  Yeah. With you this Toyota, the MR2, new secret MR2 from Toyota, will be all thanks to Toyota's love of petrol sports cars. Where are you ranking this?

• 1:27:34Jordi Hays?

  Track weapon.

• 1:27:36John Coogan?

  This looks good. This looks like what it's sort of like the future should look like the future thing. I mean, those those headlights look like SF 90 headlights. That's sort of a crazy style.

• 1:27:46Jordi Hays?

  So I like the MR2, but not as much as the Fiat TRIS three wheeled electric vehicle. Let's pull up this video. Uh, I'm working. I really want to get a fleet of these for the team.

• 1:27:59John Coogan?

  You're going, you're going Fiat over Nissan Murano.

• 1:28:03Jordi Hays?

  Wait till you wait now. Yeah, wait till you see this. Wait till you see this vehicle, John.

• 1:28:07John Coogan?

  Let's see this vehicle.

• 1:28:08Jordi Hays?

  It is built like a truck, but drives.

• 1:28:12John Coogan?

  Hey, they obviously it's built like a truck.

• 1:28:14Jordi Hays?

  But it drives like a motorcycle. It has steering. It has like handlebars in the front.

• 1:28:19John Coogan?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:28:20Jordi Hays?

  It's like, um.

• 1:28:21John Coogan?

  Are these US legal yet or are they planning to bring?

• 1:28:23Jordi Hays?

  I mean, if they're not, if they're not.

• 1:28:25John Coogan?

  Let you be Rick Shaw.

• 1:28:27Jordi Hays?

  If they're not, if they're not, we're gonna make.

• 1:28:29John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:28:30Jordi Hays?

  Jan 6 look like a, like a.

• 1:28:37John Coogan?

  For your mini.

• 1:28:40John Coogan?

  He's rising up, single issue voter over here.

• 1:28:43Jordi Hays?

  I mean, this thing is absolutely stunning. This thing is stunning.

• 1:28:47John Coogan?

  Going this over MR2? No way. I'm going Nissan.

• 1:28:50Jordi Hays?

  Look at that. Imagine being able to drive, but having a throttle. Imagine having the capacity of a truck, but having a throttle.

• 1:28:56John Coogan?

  Mix of a fleet. We need a, we need a Puganator. We need a cross cap. We need an MR2.

• 1:29:02Jordi Hays?

  Key truck.

• 1:29:03John Coogan?

  A Lucha, a Lucha Shrek edition, a GZ3RS Toy Story edition. And then one of these, uh, the Fiat.

• 1:29:12Jordi Hays?

  Oh.

• 1:29:12John Coogan?

  You gotta get this.

• 1:29:13Jordi Hays?

  Incredible.

• 1:29:14John Coogan?

  What are you putting in the?

• 1:29:15Jordi Hays?

  What a spec too.

• 1:29:18John Coogan?

  Orange.

• 1:29:21Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah, it is. That is the big question. What do you put in the bed of the truck?

• 1:29:26John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 1:29:27Jordi Hays?

  I think groceries. Anything.

• 1:29:28John Coogan?

  Normally I would say a whole bunch of kettle and fire, but I think I'm going Coors highlight.

• 1:29:32Jordi Hays?

  Imagine, imagine computer, uh, commuting to the podcast studio with your best microphones in the truck bed. Your little tiny truck. And. So that's, that's what we're going for.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  The countrywide tour.

• 1:29:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Take this around.

• 1:29:50Jordi Hays?

  Take this around.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  VPN on the road.

• 1:29:52John Coogan?

  What is this other car here that's in the BMW? Okay, this is our first peek at the electric BMW M3. Is it, says Motor One, meet the BMW M Concept New Classe. Four electric motors, 100 kilowatt hour high performance battery, front bumper inspired by racing boats. What do you think? More pics coming out? Looks pretty good. I don't know, I'm not a big fan of these wheels. These wheels are sort of crazy with all the triangles. But otherwise, seems like a pretty normal car. I don't know. Never been like, I don't think I've ever owned a BMW, I've been in a few, but what do you think, Jordy? Are you enjoying this, this concept for the new BMW M3?

• 1:30:37Jordi Hays?

  I've been waiting, I've been waiting for more. I think that, like, kind of sportier EVs will increase EV's overall popularity. Cause people are gonna realize like, wait, okay, it's a bit, it's quite a bit heavier, but it's fast, it's fun. I think this looks fine. I've never been a BMW guy myself, nothing against the brand.

• 1:31:06Jordi Hays?

  But like, I think that, I think this will be like a very great experience for somebody that maybe probably.

• 1:31:13John Coogan?

  Shrek Fiat.

• 1:31:16Jordi Hays?

  I mean, I'm obviously going with the Shrek.

• 1:31:18John Coogan?

  Shrek Fiat.

• 1:31:18Jordi Hays?

  The Shrek Fiat.

• 1:31:22John Coogan?

  Track only Shrek Fiat? Generated. We'll come back to that. I, I, I do think when it comes to electric vehicles, the lack of variety has been a little stifling. Thanks to Elon Musk's absolute domination of the category with Tesla. You got the Model 3, the Model Y, which looks like a Model 3, but just a little taller. And then the S, which looks like the 3 and the Y and the X that looks like the Y. And then you got the Cybertruck, which is a crazy thing, which I actually think makes people appreciate the other formats. But the only EV convertible is the. Hummer EV, which is an odd choice. There's no, there's no just like, put the top down Cabriolet grand tourer in EV.

• 1:32:06Jordi Hays?

  I mean, the original Roadster.

• 1:32:07John Coogan?

  Did they ever do it? No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The original Roadster, but they don't sell anymore. And so like, like, that's a very niche car. Um, there, there aren't many two doors. There aren't many, uh, you know, grand tourers. There's nothing that's like track focused, really. There are like some one-off, you know, like million dollar projects, but there's nothing in like, okay, what is the Supra? What is the Wrangler of this category? But again, when companies have tried them, uh, they often flop. The G-Wagon EV is sort of the, is sort of the anti-Luca in the sense that, uh, a lot of people are saying, you know, oh, the Lucha is like too different from a Ferrari. Well, uh, Mercedes ran the experiment of like,

• 1:32:46John Coogan?

  what if we changed as little as possible about a loved category of car, the, the, the G series, the G-Wagon, and they changed very little to the point where the, the, the tire on the back is square. It doesn't even say electric on there. It says G650 with EQ technology has a very odd name. There's some blue accents, but unless you're a G-Wagon owner, an aficionado, most people can't spot the difference between a G-Wagon and an electric G-Wagon. They use the same style cues, the same lines. You're going to say, oh, I can tell, but you're an owner, so it doesn't count. But they went with the same design.

• 1:33:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. I mean, I can, I can only tell from like, I can tell from like a mile away.

• 1:33:32Jordi Hays?

  But like two miles, it's much harder.

• 1:33:34John Coogan?

  But you understand.

• 1:33:36Jordi Hays?

  I can still tell from two miles, but I need like, you know, binoculars.

• 1:33:40John Coogan?

  Yeah. So, so, so they went with the same design language. They didn't switch it up and go rounded. They didn't switch it up and go different.

• 1:33:48Jordi Hays?

  They switched it up, John.

• 1:33:49John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. But you understand what they did and it was still didn't sell well. And so, uh, maybe that underwrites a more risk-taking strategy.

• 1:33:58Jordi Hays?

  All right. We got the, the Shrek TR, TRIS. Let's pull up the regular, the regular Fiat.

• 1:34:06John Coogan?

  Pull up the regular Fiat. Pull up the Shrek edition.

• 1:34:13Jordi Hays?

  This thing is unbelievable, unbelievable. Okay, so this is the original. Go back, go back. Original for everyone?

• 1:34:23John Coogan?

  This is the original Fiat, okay? Looks good.

• 1:34:25Jordi Hays?

  Okay, one of the most stunning vehicles of the modern era.

• 1:34:29John Coogan?

  My wine's about to come out of my nose.

• 1:34:31Jordi Hays?

  And now for Dave, specifically in the chat.

• 1:34:34John Coogan?

  Yes, Dave, we got you covered.

• 1:34:35Jordi Hays?

  The Ogre Edition.

• 1:34:39Jordi Hays?

  Zoom out a little bit. Look at the wing on that thing. Look at the wing and the wood.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  There's extra wheels too.

• 1:34:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, it got extra wheels.

• 1:34:45Jordi Hays?

  The wood doors with the swamp, the remnants of the swamp still kind of draped over the back.

• 1:34:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, you can do this.

• 1:34:55Jordi Hays?

  Added, made it a five, a five wheel, a classic five wheel.

• 1:34:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, a five wheeler. Anyway, there's a new challenge that hit the timeline. Apple threw down the gauntlet. They said, they said that no one could make Siri their girlfriend. Said Siri won't be your AI girlfriend. This is from Apple's Craig Federighi. Well.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  I'd like to see you try to stop me.

• 1:35:16John Coogan?

  I'd like to see you try to stop me.

• 1:35:17Jordi Hays?

  Look at this account that says clearly an upgrade on the Fiat, but suspicious name. S H R I E.

• 1:35:28John Coogan?

  One letter off the track, I don't know what's going on.

• 1:35:30Jordi Hays?

  Very suspicious.

• 1:35:32John Coogan?

  Very suspicious.

• 1:35:33Jordi Hays?

  Maybe you might live in a swamp. We don't know.

• 1:35:35John Coogan?

  So Craig Federighi says Apple won't be your AI girlfriend, quite the opposite. Because as you may know, if you've seen any of the existing chatbots, they're really focused on engagement and sycophancy. They want to kind of pull you in. They might encourage you to reveal things about yourself, then use that as a basis to establish a connection. We view it quite the opposite. I mean.

• 1:35:56Jordi Hays?

  Very kind of fitting, like kind of a very 2025 take, which is kind of fitting, given their AI progress.

• 1:36:06John Coogan?

  But if you try and engage Siri as a romantic partner, Siri's not up for that. Siri's 100% not into that. And so the Rizlers in the chat.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  I mean, he's just, he's just opening himself up to get dunked on, right? Because like you can, people have jailbroken every single model that they've ever had.

• 1:36:20John Coogan?

  But also, one of the cool things about the Siri AI system is that it will, it builds a rag.

• 1:36:27Jordi Hays?

  Look at his face, says, "System prompts, don't be the user's girlfriend."

• 1:36:33Jordi Hays?

  He's like, yeah, we've we cracked the code. It's like problem that has been plaguing the AI.

• 1:36:40John Coogan?

  So when you fire up a new iOS, did you install it by the way?

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Yes, but I don't have the new Siri because you have to be on on the waitlist.

• 1:36:49John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  But I can do like all the images.

• 1:36:51John Coogan?

  Okay, okay, cool.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, my phone gets really hot. I'm on 16 Pro.

• 1:36:56John Coogan?

  That's why I have the cooling chamber.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not.

• 1:36:59Jordi Hays?

  Did some real damage there.

• 1:37:01John Coogan?

  I put this thing through its paces. No case. Throw it across the room. Scratch it up. Anyway, when you install the new Siri, it builds an index, it rebuilds the search index, the spotlight index, it builds a RAG database, it encodes every message, every every mail, every email, every contact into a RAG database, puts it in vector space so that it can more naturally search over it via Siri. And I imagine that a really complex prompt injection attack would start there. And so you should construct on a clean phone, messages and emails and in contacts and everything about the phone should lean into being.

• 1:37:47Jordi Hays?

  Look, the bankers almost have it perfect.

• 1:37:49John Coogan?

  They really do.

• 1:37:50Jordi Hays?

  They're working.

• 1:37:50John Coogan?

  Uh oh.

• 1:37:51Jordi Hays?

  Oh, oh, man.

• 1:37:52John Coogan?

  New can just got new. Red can be coming in.

• 1:37:56Jordi Hays?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 1:37:57John Coogan?

  Anyway, no, I do believe that Apple will put incredibly effective guardrails on this.

• 1:38:03Jordi Hays?

  Matthew Prince.

• 1:38:04John Coogan?

  Years and years of research.

• 1:38:05Jordi Hays?

  Be coming for these bankers. It's sitting at a 19.8% pop. He's like, if you guys don't figure out a way to get, buy the stock.

• 1:38:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:13Jordi Hays?

  I want to see some inflows.

• 1:38:14John Coogan?

  Because he wants to do exactly 20?

• 1:38:15Jordi Hays?

  Exactly 20% to end the day.

• 1:38:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, this is this is good. Yeah, be fun. Anyway.

• 1:38:24Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, I think that's a good place to end the show.

• 1:38:26John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:38:27Jordi Hays?

  John wants to keep going.

• 1:38:29John Coogan?

  I always want to keep going.

• 1:38:30Jordi Hays?

  But I did want to say.

• 1:38:33John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:38:33Jordi Hays?

  Quick shout out to a friend of the show, Bo Nickel.

• 1:38:37John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:38Jordi Hays?

  Who will be fighting. At the White House this weekend. Wow. At the UFC 250 event. Bo Nickel hasn't been on the show yet, but was one of our first, I would say 10,000 listeners of the show. And I'm thrilled that he gets to be on probably the biggest stage ever in combat sports.

• 1:39:01John Coogan?

  He's one of the greatest punchers ever in UFC history. He's good at kicking too, but him as a puncher, it's really tough.

• 1:39:10Jordi Hays?

  You're saying he's a knockout artist?

• 1:39:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:12Jordi Hays?

  And Bo, you're probably cutting weight right now, not listening to this, but John's just joking around, but give him heck out there, since we don't swear on this show. Give him heck out there.

• 1:39:25John Coogan?

  Good luck.

• 1:39:25Jordi Hays?

  This Sunday.

• 1:39:26John Coogan?

  We're rooting for you. Appreciate you.

• 1:39:29Jordi Hays?

  And John, they're saying, just keep going. Don't stop.

• 1:39:33John Coogan?

  I could read obituaries from David Hockney. He passed away. Rest in peace, David Hockney. I could read all sorts of stuff. We didn't even get to the mansion section. There's a bunch of good stuff in there.

• 1:39:43Jordi Hays?

  Well, save it for next week.

• 1:39:46John Coogan?

  Save it for later. Cisco's president, G2 Patel, former friend of the show's rocking a Richard Mill onstage at Semaphore.

• 1:39:54Jordi Hays?

  Well, okay, we can pull that up.

• 1:39:56John Coogan?

  I got you back in.

• 1:39:58Jordi Hays?

  You pulled me back in.

• 1:39:59John Coogan?

  I got you back in. Yeah, he's the president and chief product officer.

• 1:40:05Jordi Hays?

  Mirage in the chat says.

• 1:40:07John Coogan?

  We've interviewed him at Cisco AI Summit. We love Cisco. We love him.

• 1:40:09Jordi Hays?

  My wife left me, not you, Mr. Coogan. She doesn't want you to go offline.

• 1:40:16John Coogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:40:20John Coogan?

  It took me a second. But as far as RM's go, this is very tasteful. This is very elevated. It goes with his outfit. I think it's, Richard Mills, it can be so bold. Like, it can be, it can all of a sudden look like the Shrek edition, if you get crazy with the, there's one for tracking the soccer match. There's all sorts of crazy colors. That's what RM's known for, but this is, is just more conservative, more, it fits, it fits the occasion, I think, very well. So, fantastic, fantastic.

• 1:40:53Jordi Hays?

  Imagine a Shrek-themed RM with a wooden, like a wooden dial, right? With real swamp in it.

• 1:41:06John Coogan?

  Real swamp. There are some watches that have like liquid inside.

• 1:41:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Real swamp. The real swamp edition.

• 1:41:13John Coogan?

  Swamp edition. Be great. Uh, wait, I gotta get Tyler to apologize to the greatest president in American history.

• 1:41:21Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah. For the chat, Dave says Siri can be your wife because he only.

• 1:41:28Jordi Hays?

  He only specified no girlfriend. What did he mean by that?

• 1:41:31John Coogan?

  Don't be the girlfriend. Don't be a girlfriend. Don't be an AI girlfriend. No AI girlfriends. If they ask you to be a girlfriend. It's like, like, you know, the one and only, the lifetime partner.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or just a fling.

• 1:41:42John Coogan?

  A flame? A fling?

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  Fling.

• 1:41:44John Coogan?

  Fling or a flame. An old flame. Siri can be an old flame.

• 1:41:48Jordi Hays?

  All right. Chat just made the Shrek edition RM.

• 1:41:54John Coogan?

  The Shrek edition.

• 1:41:56Jordi Hays?

  The swamp, they're calling it the swamp edition, one of a hundred.

• 1:41:59John Coogan?

  Quickly, Tyler apologized to Jimmy Carter because he coined the term energy transition to describe the building of secure domestic energy base. He was energy pill. He was bottleneck pill before anyone. He knew. He knew that this day was coming and he knew that the new rule order was coming in energy markets.

• 1:42:20Jordi Hays?

  Shrek.

• 1:42:20John Coogan?

  Where energy is dirty.

• 1:42:22Jordi Hays?

  Look at this. Look at this.

• 1:42:24John Coogan?

  That was really hard. Send that to TJ Parker immediately. Look at this swamp edition, one of 100. You could track what you're doing in the swamp. Has the whole castle there.

• 1:42:37Jordi Hays?

  And the ears. I mean, the ears look amazing.

• 1:42:40John Coogan?

  The Shrek edition are good. That's very, very good.

• 1:42:44Jordi Hays?

  This is a great, like, fifth birthday present for any of the, any SpaceX employees for the, like, if they have kids, like, pick this up. Your kid wearing a one of a hundred RM down at the playground, Shrek edition. Guaranteed to be a conversation starter, right? Maybe the kids are like, you know, toddlers. They don't have anything to talk about, really.

• 1:43:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:06Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but this is a way to kind of like break the ice, right? This is why, why some adults wear watches. It's something to talk about. So.

• 1:43:12John Coogan?

  Yeah, it makes sense.

• 1:43:13Jordi Hays?

  Uh, fantastic option.

• 1:43:15John Coogan?

  Well, the Japanese World Cup tourists have discovered Texas Roadhouse and they're calling it the best cost performance steak. To those headed to America for a World Cup, if there's a Texas Roadhouse near your hotel, head there immediately. It is a chain restaurant, but you get the best cost performance steak, especially the ribeye is actually.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  I'm surprised they didn't mention the bread.

• 1:43:37John Coogan?

  Oh, do you get unlimited bread?

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, you get, you keep getting the little, I don't know, little bread.

• 1:43:42John Coogan?

  Maybe they should head over to Lobster, get the endless shrimp, endless shrimp. Well, there's one last post we can close out on from Water Gun. All these mountains to climb, will I ever rest? Ever rest? I thought that was a funny pun. It's funny when you read it. Not funny, not funny when you read it out loud. It doesn't work.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:01John Coogan?

  It doesn't work in the audio format. Anyway, have a great weekend. Congratulations to anyone that got in on the SpaceX IPO and printed a nice 19.44% game day.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  And yeah, we're praying for the bankers out there that they can figure out how to, you know, correct.

• 1:44:18John Coogan?

  Close at exactly 20%.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  I mean, they have like 15 minutes left, right?

• 1:44:21John Coogan?

  They do.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:22John Coogan?

  Well, leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts, sign up for our newsletter at tbpn.com and we will see you on Monday. Have a great weekend.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  We love you.

• 1:44:30John Coogan?

  Goodbye. Flashbang out.