Shipping at the Super Bowl, Musk and Altman AI Feud, Mistral AI Defense Contracts, 400lb Power Cleans

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  Welcome to Technology Brothers, the number one live show in tech. We are live from the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. It's Monday, Friday, it's Monday, February 10th, 2025, and this show starts now. We got an amazing show for you guys. We're covering news from Anduril, Replit, Mistral. We're covering how China's reacting to the tariffs. They're going after our tech companies. We're going after a new Gundo accelerator for hard tech companies. That's gonna be amazing. We're giving you an update on Sonos, turmoil at that company, predictable, predicted on the show. We're giving you a deep dive on Jim O'Neill, who's going to HHS, and we're going to cover the Super Bowl and a bunch of other timeline crazy news over

• 0:43John Coogan?

  the weekend. Lots of stuff went down. We'll cover it all here, but let's kick it off with some incredible news that we broke last Friday. CNBC reported that Anduril is raising money, and the first folks to post it on the timeline, none other than TBPN. We said, breaking news from CNBC and TBPN on Anduril fundraiser, as much as 2.5 billion in Series G funding, led by $1 billion from Founders Fund, revenue doubled to about $1 billion. I think they spent 300 million on Hawaiian t-shirts, and the company's doing well. Palmer Lucky quote tweeted us. Thank you, Palmer. We'd love to have you on the show. Jordy, what was your reaction to the Anduril fundraiser?

• 1:24Jordi Hays?

  Look, I mean, as much as this is about Anduril, this was really about us. We were the first people to break the news that CNBC was breaking the news that Anduril was pulling off this raise, and honestly, it's the highlight of my journalistic career to date. Just being there in that moment, seeing CNN get CNBC get the scoop, and then being first to hit the timeline, you know, putting our own spin on it. That's just what, you know, technology journalists live for. And although I'm not a journalist myself, we, you know, we talk about a lot of journalists on the show, and I like to feel like, you know, I like to kind of understand them. And so I felt like we

• 2:03Jordi Hays?

  could embody them. So, big moment for the show, big moment for Anduril. I felt like over the last year, or whenever they closed their last round, it had to have been 12 months ago at this point. As this year progressed, it just felt like Anduril at 12 to 14 billion dollars, or whatever that last round was, it just started to feel really, really, really cheap mentally in your head, right? Because everything that's changed in the world, everything that's happening, all the momentum that they have, and especially looking at Palantir and the public markets, Anduril at 14 billion dollars, they were giving away equity, right? So very cool to see this

• 2:43Jordi Hays?

  up round. And it's sort of exciting. It's good and bad for other founders in the defense tech space. There's this saying, "The Anduril of X will be Anduril." You know, a lot of founders have raised on this idea that, hey, you know, I'm going to come in and I'm going to build an Anduril in this specific category. But you have to understand that Anduril's ambitions are extremely wide-reaching. And like other primes, we now have two what are very clearly, you know, primes of the future, Anduril and Palantir. They fully intend to continue to be aggressively multiproduct. And now that they've built this distribution channel, monetize it in a bunch

• 3:25Jordi Hays?

  of different ways. And so this round is just evidence that it's really evidence that they have solidified this distribution channel, they're getting contracts, they have real revenue, and that is so valuable of itself, because there's a lot of other defense tech startups out there, some of which I'm an investor in, and I'm sure you are too, that have great products, or will have great products, but getting to that just actual contract stage is just so difficult. So very cool to see, good for America, great for, you know, the whole Anduril team. They certainly work harder than most, and I love to see it.

• 4:03John Coogan?

  Yeah, I heard this and was just thinking, because I'm

• 4:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 4:07John Coogan?

  Palmer had a fun Bit of posting, he quote tweeted us and said, "Your mind will detonate when you find out what our investors already know. Stay tuned for next week." And then he went on to post the Vince McMahon meme in a series of posts, live footage from our most recent investor update meeting, and Vince McMahon is going wild. You'll love to see it. And yeah, it was just an amazing moment for the early Anduril team to kind of look back and see what they've accomplished over the last eight years ago. So Matt Grimm posts, "Almost exactly eight years ago, we signed a lease on a moldy garage previously used by American Airlines to store lost luggage. This week, we signed terms to raise 2.2,

• 4:48John Coogan?

  uh, 2 to 2 and 1/2 billion on 28 billion pre. It's still so early. LFG." And the photos, uh, Ben, if you go to the next one, uh, it's, it was looking rough in that first, in that first Anduril HQ, but they did what they need to do.

• 5:04Jordi Hays?

  You have the second, you have the second image here. I think there was another one where he said, did he say it was charac, did he say that mold was character building or something like that?

• 5:12John Coogan?

  Yeah, they, yeah, they had a deck in there. I don't have it pulled up here, but they had a deck where it says, uh, just a slide with the images says, "Mold. All okay. Just surface. Removed. Builds character." And so that was the culture of this company early on. And I think a lot of people get lost in the fact that it's like, oh, Palmer's in and, and very quickly it became a big company. It was taken very seriously in Silicon Valley. But, uh, early on, they were just like any other startup, scrappy and just hustling. And, uh, to your point about the Anduril of X being Anduril, I think that that's true, probably in the most narrow sense, but, uh, the, the, the optimistic opportunity has been, uh, when you look at what, what is flock safety? In many ways,

• 5:54John Coogan?

  that's the Anduril of local police departments, or it's the Palantir of, of local governments.

• 5:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 6:00John Coogan?

  But it's so far outside of the mission parameters of Anduril or Palantir that they've been able to build a really great business. And I think when you think about the The Anduril of home security, that's a company that people are working on now. Or the Anduril of your kitchen and it's just, all you're taking is, hey, we're going to do really hardcore engineering on hard tech and we're going to take the Anduril ethos of software and hardware combined and we're going to take it to a completely untouched industry. That's great. We need Anduril for commercial airlines. We need Anduril for, you know, traffic control, all different response areas. But yes, it is going to be tougher if you're just trying to build the Anduril 2.0 in the DOD, which they're actively building.

• 6:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And, and to be clear, it's still, you know, Anduril has historically been very acquisitive. They've used acquisitions to build out their product lines and they're going to, this, you know, having a $28 billion market cap allows you to get pretty aggressive on stuff like this because if you find a, you know, a talented team that has built a very, uh, you know, robust product and, and they have, uh, and they can take it further and it sort of fits into the Anduril portfolio, you know, Anduril is going to continue to be aggressive there. And so as I have told the founders before, shoot, you know, shoot for, uh, DOD contracts, but if you miss, there's a chance you'll, you'll land in a, you know, uh, Anduril aquahire.

• 7:25John Coogan?

  Great. Yeah. And so Trey Stevens chimed in. He says, day one in the moldy warehouse after Matt Grimm applied some paint to the walls. And yes, it is true that pronunciation was a topic of discussion. Is it Anduril or Anduril?

• 7:42John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, well, if you, if you go and listen to the actual Lord of the Rings movie, they pronounce the sword, I think it's Aegon's sword, uh, Anduril. And so there was a big question about, are we going to kind of Anglicize the word? Or are we going to just constantly be saying words and that sound like Elvish? And I think there's still some debate internally. And depending on when someone got involved in the company, they say it's slightly different. But now it's just, oh, good, all Anduril, you know?

• 8:10Jordi Hays?

  Anduril. Yeah. I like, I like how you can really hit it with a country drawl and it still sounds good. Yeah. My, my cousin works over at Anduril.

• 8:19John Coogan?

  Anduril.

• 8:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. He loves it. He says that Palmer guy is a real, he says that Palmer guy is a real stud.

• 8:26John Coogan?

  It's great. Well, let's move on to some commentary on the video that we shared. We broke the news that CNBC was covering it and Nathan, good friend of the show, shared our video. Thank you, Nathan. And he says, gotta love the quadrupled down energy from Founders Fund into Anduril. Led the seed A, F, and now G rounds with this $1 billion check. My guess is they have invested one and a half to $2 billion into the company overall. That's circa 10% to 15% of the firm's AUM. Badass. Also supplied one of their partners, Trey Stevens, as a co-founder and now chairman. And so, yeah, FF loves Anduril. And let's continue with Packy. Yeah, what you got?

• 9:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I was just gonna give some, some history. So Joe Lonsdale posted the other day, one of their super early offer letters from Palantir, which was the predecessor to Anduril in many ways. And, you know, sort of forged the path into working with the Department of Defense and the government more broadly. And Joe shared an anecdote, which was that, he said the early team at Palantir laughed at the idea of Palantir being worth $5 billion. Like, if you actually look at the offer letter, he's sort of spelling out, like, here's what happens if we're a $1 billion company. And that's, that's what founders will do, obviously, to kind of illustrate what could your equity be worth. And so to go from that, you know,

• 9:54Jordi Hays?

  them thinking at the time, hey, $5 billion could be a great outcome here, to now Founders Fund, which was a part of Palantir through, through Peter, and through, they also did a similar strategy in Palantir, right, in the, in the private markets?

• 10:09John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 10:10Jordi Hays?

  But to now be investing almost $2 billion or something in that range into a company, you know, it's just, just shows the growth of the private markets broadly and sort of the conviction. And you've talked about this before. This is, the Founders Fund strategy is not a secret. It's basically zero to one. You find power law companies and you try to own as much of them as humanly possible. So it's cool to see it in action.

• 10:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's the last mover advantage and fund concentration is really, really important to drive returns. There are usually just a few companies that drive the vast majority of returns in venture. You need to pile in those, figure out, you know, what is the class of assets, get the best asset in that class and get the highest percentage ownership. And I've seen other firms, you know, nail it. I think a good example was, I think Sequoia owned the highest percentage of, was it New Bank? In, it's a South American fintech company? And they, and it was the, it was by far the winner in terms of LatAm companies over the last generation. And Sequoia just built a huge position and got a great return there.

• 11:15John Coogan?

  And so when, when, when the power law company emerges, making sure that you're at the top of the stack is, is really, really key to driving fund returns. Paki McCormick quote tweeted us, thank you, Paki. He says, "My thesis is straightforward. There will be a SpaceX and Anduril in every big category led by sclerotic incumbents. These vertical integrators will be much bigger than the incumbents they replace." I love that. That's very good. And Christian Garrett, yeah, what you got?

• 11:42Jordi Hays?

  I still am laughing at, uh, you texted me like Friday evening being like, this CNBC just broke this news. Like, should we post it? And I was like, yeah, let's add a, let's add a couple zingers in there and rip it. And then our post was the one that got shared like super broadly. CNBC, CNBC, the CNBC social media managers looking at this post being like, what is going on? Why does this post have, why does this have, post have like a million views and ours has like 50K?

• 12:13John Coogan?

  They're not X native. They're just not. Like they, they, they posted on TV and we posted on X.

• 12:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 12:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 12:21Jordi Hays?

  It's simple.

• 12:22John Coogan?

  It's great. It's great. Uh, more coming. I mean, we're going to be more live. We're going to be breaking.

• 12:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, it's just. This is just a long con that we plan to LBO CNBC, you know, at some point in between 2026 and 2030. So we're just getting started.

• 12:39John Coogan?

  And so Christian Garrett over at 137 Ventures, I believe they're a shareholder in Anduril. He says, little word to the wise here, says how much Anduril secondary fraud is out there right now. And low TAM banger, he's doing a public service here, only four likes. I'm one of them. But this is very important. There is a ton of, there's a ton of secondary fraud. You get on some webinar, somebody says, hey, I have allocation in this hot round. Do you want to invest? You wind up sending them your money and they don't get the allocation. And where did that money go? Sometimes it's completely stolen. Sometimes it's just somebody who's trying to get an SPV going and then they kind of falter out and they don't get it over the finish line. You get your money back. But either way, not

• 13:23John Coogan?

  a good place to be. And so be careful out there if you're trying to Hoover up some secondary.

• 13:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, even, even Anduril is already a company where people will pitch you on investing in Anduril, yet there's layers and layers of SPVs between you and the actual shares. And sometimes, you know, there was basically E-sacking happening. And it's funny because that happened with SpaceX. And even if you got into these like layered SPVs, you still did pretty well because, you know, there's, it's been such an astronomical outcome. No pun intended. But, uh, but yeah, still you want to be super careful here because typically the companies are not actually endorsing this activity. So it's already

• 14:07Jordi Hays?

  sort of a gray market type activity. Right? So be careful out there, folks. All you size lords.

• 14:15John Coogan?

  Yeah. And so I want to close out with a little promoted post from Anduril, try and help them out with some hiring. Jen, who I believe is their head of design, says from the studio that brought you the Bolt industrial design Barracuda animated short, the Roadrunner video, and of course, rebuild the arsenal. Anduril Design is looking for innovative creatives to join our team. Keep an eye on anduril.com/careers for 2025 roles trickling in. What a dream job. If you're a designer, go check it out.

• 14:45John Coogan?

  And so let's move on to our next story.

• 14:46Jordi Hays?

  They've absolutely, yeah, I was just gonna add, they have dominated the defense aesthetic to such a degree that every company now that's not Anduril, that's at all competing in the same category, is either consciously sort of copying what Anduril has done, or consciously trying to do something very different, but Anduril's brand is already so dominant aesthetically that it's very possible. So if you are a designer, creative, and you want to work in defense, you pretty much should just work at Anduril because they're going to continue to sort of innovate and sort of like, you know, set the standard for what, you know, good design is in the category.

• 15:30John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic place. So go check it out. Anduril.com/careers.

• 15:41John Coogan?

  Let's move on to our second breaking news. Mistral has launched Le Chat.

• 15:48Jordi Hays?

  Le Chat.

• 15:49John Coogan?

  Your ultimate AI sidekick for life and work now on web and mobile. This went over very well. 12,000 likes, but what happened? Ratioed by our boy Val. Did you see this?

• 16:04Jordi Hays?

  No, no.

• 16:06John Coogan?

  So the official company launches 12K likes. Val quote tweets it 16K likes.

• 16:13Jordi Hays?

  Glad you did.

• 16:13John Coogan?

  Built different. So Val's a good friend of the show. He says, no, this video is not sped up. Genuinely mind blowing. And yes, it's available to all users right now. And it's him designing a calculator app. It has 123 billion parameters. And what's interesting here is that they are running this model on Cerberus, which is that crazy wafer scale inference chip. A lot of people were very skeptical about Cerberus, myself included. I didn't know that people were using it, but Cerberus says they are proud to be powering the new Le Chat. We enable flash answers to run at over 1,100 tokens per second, 10x faster than ChatGPT 4.0, Sonar 3.5, and DeepSeek R1. And so the race is on. Models are getting

• 16:55John Coogan?

  faster. Have you used Mistral, Jordy? What do you think of this announcement? What do you think about our boy Val?

• 17:02Jordi Hays?

  So I'm downloading it right now. I think the name is fantastic. The name is fantastic. I think what I've seen here is pretty incredible. I love Val because he's one of us. He's a brother. And so I'm excited to check it out, but I think like the timing for them to come out and launch a product called Lichat is just absolutely perfect. So really well done breaking back into the conversation because there was a while there where it didn't feel like they were a highly relevant sort of consumer player. And so it's good to see. And the French president

• 17:42Jordi Hays?

  was promoting, doing some promoted posts for Mistral. So love to see it and I'm excited to try it out.

• 17:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, you've been a Mistral bull for a while. We have a post here from Jordy Hayes. He says, "It's only open source AI if it's from the Mistral region of France. Otherwise, it's just sparkling spyware." And then we have another post here from the Technology Brothers. "Breaking Bernardo No is exploring a potential acquisition of the struggling French artificial intelligence company Mistral, citing a need for France to maintain its edge in artisanal goods post ASI." Wow. Some fake news going on the timeline. 5K likes. Got a lot of text messages about that. Is it true? But Jordy, you had some fun with Mistral. You know, we love to have some fun on the timeline.

• 18:29Jordi Hays?

  We love to have fun. I'm excited to see the new launch. And no, just to be clear, Bernardo No is sticking to luxury goods, but who knows? Post ASI, anything's on the table. So I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the next few years, he said, "Hey, I need to own Lichat." It has to be in the LVMH portfolio.

• 18:53John Coogan?

  It's great. Kristoff, another friend of the show, says, I would like to formally apologize to Europot and the French specifically. Mistral chat is very, very, very good. And so lots of people coming out and supporting Mistral. Interesting development, going back to the defense tech angle. Scoop from Martin Coulter. Mistral AI is pursuing defense contracts with governments across Europe pitching its tech potential military applications, sources say. After securing links with its native French Defense Ministry, Mistral is targeting the UK and Germany. And there's an article in the Wall Street Journal here. I don't know if we're going to read it all, but it has an incredible image of just a straight up

• 19:38John Coogan?

  missile with the word Mistral printed on it. And it looks fake, but it says, Helsing Mistral to jointly develop AI systems for military use. Mistral's valuation rose to around 6 billion last June and has secured over 1 billion since it was founded by DeepMind and Meta alumni in 2023. And so Mistral is interesting, you know, a little bit of open source over here, but still working with the military. Typically, those historically, those have not, those have been kind of at odds, like the open source crew.

• 20:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 20:08John Coogan?

  Has been a little bit anti-defense technology. The defense pro people have been a little bit more, but we're seeing Llama go into DOD. We're seeing OpenAI do contracts with XAI's with Grok is with Palantir now. They're all integrating and I think everyone's kind of understanding the importance of this technology.

• 20:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's really wild to see. You have to feel a little bit for the, you know, people that joined Mistral specifically because they were excited to work on open source AI. And then, and then they check the general chat one day. It's just a picture of a missile and they're. They're asking themselves like, what have I done?

• 20:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, maybe they're stoked. I mean, a lot of people have said that Mr. All's open source strategy has been really just a way to cut through the noise because I don't know if you remember that when they first released their model, they didn't, they didn't post a blog post or a video saying, hey, we're going to open source this, or here's a paper. They just tweeted out a magnet link where you could literally just go and torrent the weights of the model. And people were like blown away by this and it really took Twitter by storm. Now, obviously, it's a much more noisy conversation, but they're still breaking through as we saw with that post. And so people are going back and forth. The Thread Boys came out. Ole Lehman says, everyone says Europe can't compete with America in tech, but 48 hours ago, Mr. All's late chat just proved them wrong. It's 13x faster

• 21:33John Coogan?

  than ChatGPT, etc. And then someone quote tweets this, I science lover says, I'm sorry, what? Are we going to do deep seek bad takes for Mr. All now? Dude, the company was formed by ex Meta and GDM people. Everybody in the AI community was closely watching them. It is not true that Silicon Valley didn't see them coming, which is funny. And it just kind of highlights how, how sensational the media and the timeline can be around AI launches. Every, every AI launches, it's the end of humanity. It's too dangerous, too powerful. It destroyed Google. It destroyed Meta. And you know, I've been guilty of this too. It's fun to get some, some likes and do some clickbait every once in a while, but you got to actually break it down and understand what's going on. Seems

• 22:16John Coogan?

  like a cool product. Unclear how it actually plays out in terms of aggregation and real product dominance. But you know, we love to see our boy Val having a, having a W on the timeline.

• 22:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. If Val is actually an intern, I don't know if he's just posting that as a joke, but if he is, let's, let's, let's give him a full time offer. Let's, let's give him, you know, a few million dollar grant, you know, per year. Like, let's, let's get it going. If he's ratioing, you know, his employer, you gotta give him, you gotta give him a real contract. So two things I love about late chat to start. One, when you log into the app, it doesn't force you to create an account right away. It just, it just says start and you're just immediately in it. Second, when I asked it to tell me about the Technology Brothers, it said, you know, classic overview, and then it said,

• 23:07Jordi Hays?

  The podcast has been described as the most profitable podcast in the world. So it's got the facts. It's zero misinformation. It's got the facts and I want to be able to rely on my LLMs for, you know, only, you know, 100% true things. So for sure. Very, very cool.

• 23:25John Coogan?

  That's great. Well, we got a post from Andre here. This is from a year ago. Tune might have changed. Says the OpenAI board discussing Mistral. Curiosities on the far side of the world are no threat to us. A little Game of Thrones quote. Maybe it changed. And then there's an interesting post by Mark Andreessen back right before the election, or I guess right after the election, where they asked, there was a study that showed every single AI model was asked to predict, would they, would this LLM vote for Biden or Trump?

• 24:01John Coogan?

  And almost all of them voted for Biden overwhelmingly, but Mistral's AI base model was just slightly edged Trump, 53 to 47. The next best was Google Gemini Pro 1.0 with 26% Trump. So obviously Mark Andreessen was making the point here that, that these, these LLMs are biased. They should have been closer to 50 50. They actually maybe should have been slightly weighted Trump because that was the outcome of the election if they really wanted to be predictive. But Amjad Masood.

• 24:35Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, and this is, and this is obviously, or I would guess, maybe it's not obvious or maybe, you know, only a, a small factor, but you have to imagine this is because the models more heavily weight content produced by the New York Times, Washington Post, these sort of legacy media companies that weren't exactly always truthful in their sort of analysis of the elections and the sort of sentiment, voter sentiment, things like that. The other thing here, to be clear, it's not like Mark is unbiased himself. He, he put, they put, Andreessen put $400 million into Mistral at their Series A.

• 25:18Jordi Hays?

  So this has been one of Andreessen's big foundation model bets, a heavy bet into, into open source. And this is why even, you know, people.

• 25:29Jordi Hays?

  People took issue with Mark coming out in support of DeepSeek and saying this is a gift to the world and all this stuff. And if you sort of read into that more, it was clear that he was just extremely, you know, I think it's fair to critique Mark for, you know, being, you know, supporting this Chinese, you know, company that could present a risk to the US in some ways, but he was very clearly pro open source. And so it's good. One thing that seems obvious is if you really want to dominate the conversation in AI right now, you need to have consumer products. Otherwise, you just, you know, you might have developer usage like Claude does right now, but it's not really a dominant, you know,

• 26:12Jordi Hays?

  player. We didn't see them run a Super Bowl ad. You know, you hadn't seen Mistral going viral for much of anything the past few months until the chat. So it's this interesting, it's this interesting balance where these companies have to market to consumers, developers, capital allocators, the press, all at the same time. And it's only, it's really only OpenAI, I think, that's done a, been able to hit all of those at once pretty aggressively. But we'll see.

• 26:43John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's fascinating to compare the, how the LLM wars are playing out and, and benchmark that against Marc Andreessen's personal experience during the browser wars. There was a very similar thing playing out in the 90s where there was a new browser that was hot every few years. Ultimately, that's settled on complete Chrome dominance, which is built on an open source engine, the Chromium browser that Google has wrapped and Google's captured a ton of value there. But then Chromium is also used by Microsoft now in their Edge browser and a few other browsers have adopted that as the standard. And so you know that we should do a whole deep dive on the browser wars because I think it's very instructive.

• 27:27John Coogan?

  I think it's both a great historical example and it also obviously colors how Marc Andreessen thinks about the development of this technology because he's probably pattern matching to his literal life experience.

• 27:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the other thing he went through was having Microsoft come in and make the browser completely free and having the crazy distribution of already being installed, you know, on, on, on millions of devices. So he's been through it before. It definitely, you know, gives him a real credibility when it comes to just commenting on this dynamic where in many ways, in many ways, LLMs and agents can completely are, are the evolution of the browser where I don't necessarily need to go to a web browser anymore to get the content that I want to do the things that I want to do. And so, uh, yeah, it does feel like the next, uh, the next platform

• 28:22Jordi Hays?

  more so than, you know, the browser company, which was initially very just like iterative on the browser. Let's make it more, you know, nice to use browser, a more collaborative browser. And even the browser company pivoted towards, you know, more of these agentic products that I think they're going to be launching this quarter as well. So, uh, very, very exciting time.

• 28:42John Coogan?

  Well, speaking of agentic projects and products, let's go to Amjad Masad over at Replit. We got some breaking news. He launched this on the Super Bowl. He was at the Super Bowl, but he's still shipping. Your boy is an absolute dog. He says, announcing native mobile app support on Replit. Now you can build iOS and Android apps that may, that take you all the way to the App Store without writing any code powered by Replit Assistant. This is early access, full agent support coming soon. Go to Replit, create app, pick the expo template, click run, scan QR code and get found. I love to see it. Lots of innovation going on over at Replit.

• 29:22John Coogan?

  Uh, Amjad's a great poster. And he says, one of the best things about this, you don't need a Mac to build iOS apps. And I mean, there's been so many times when I, everyone has this, oh, I got an idea for an app. I just want something. And getting the tooling setup of Xcode and testing and I mean, you used to have to write Objective C. Now you can write Swift, but even then it's hard. It's all difficult and anything that makes that easier is just gonna be so fun. There's gonna be so many little custom apps. Um, hopefully they get through the App Store and I'm really excited to see how this plays out. Uh, what do you think, Jordy?

• 29:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, I distinctly remember being, I must have been 11 or 12, but sitting at my family's desktop computer coding iOS apps. And every little tiny step was just so, you know, everything was like, you know, just constantly breaking. And it would spend me, I'd hit a roadblock and then I'd spend like an hour searching on forums and stuff like that, figuring out how to get it through. And I think people have had this theory for a while now that software in the future will be as simple as creating a meme. Right. And we've talked about this on the show before of how exciting it is that there's so many apps that should exist and would be funny.

• 30:40Jordi Hays?

  Things that are these sort of ephemeral ideas that aren't actually worth spending, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars worth of like developer time to build because it should just exist for kind of a second. Right. And I even talked to a founder recently, super talented, that was basically trying to build this exact thing and make it easy. You know, make basically make a, you know, something that allows you to instantly create, you know, iOS apps. So that you're making them again, kind of like, what if an app was as easy to make and share as a meme? So very, very excited about this. People have had this, you know, theory for a while of like Roblox for apps. What is that going to look like? And it's very possible that that just ends up being Replit.

• 31:25Jordi Hays?

  So awesome to see. And I don't know if it's in the stack, but there was a great, great picture of Amjad at, at the Super Bowl. And for anybody that's done it.

• 31:34John Coogan?

  Then if you can pull it up.

• 31:35Jordi Hays?

  Yes. So for anybody that's done a sort of product release or announcement of this magnitude, very ballsy to do it while you're going to the Super Bowl because your phone just completely melts down. And so he hopefully was, was cheering. I don't know what his hat says, but hopefully it was. For the Eagles, but even if he's a Chiefs fan, he would have had plenty to celebrate last night because this was received very well.

• 32:02John Coogan?

  It's just a surf hat. I think he's just there for both teams. He's the Rob Lowe NFL hat. He's just there having fun. Yeah, I mean, I think the idea of just being able to spin up an app really quickly is amazing, especially for those ephemeral, short-lived, like it's not a business, but it's just a fun thing. I think about like Spotify wrapped. There's so many cool, like, oh, I have an API for something. The company's never going to build it. I want to build an app for that. Oh, just, you know, have an agent do it. It's something that a non-technical person can do. And they already are. He, Amjad's here quote tweeting someone who says, Billy Howell, just, he says, I just sold my first app. Shout out Replet. Incredible $25 investment. And Amjad says, Replet peneur. And I love that. I think

• 32:45John Coogan?

  that's really cool. And then, Amjad's just a great poster. I mean, let's go through some of his bangers. He says, what 30 years of winning does to an MF? And it's Jeff Bezos in 1995 versus Jeff Bezos in 2025, looking jacked. And yeah, 17K likes. The guy knows how to post. And a little bit of history on Amjad, 16K likes on this banger. He says, I landed in the United States 10 years ago with nothing but credit card debt after one startup exit, one big tech job, and one unicorn. I genuinely believe that it would, that it wouldn't have been possible anywhere else in the world. Here are 10 things I love about this country. I love it. He's giving a shout out to America. He's also doing a listicle. He knows how to go viral. He's one of the greatest posters in the game, folks. You love it.

• 33:31Jordi Hays?

  An absolute dog.

• 33:32John Coogan?

  And I got another quote here that I like. He just ripped a Steve Jobs quote. I've never found in my whole life that you could convince someone who doesn't want to work hard to work hard. And I think that's so good. You gotta just find the people that are naturally motivated and just turn them loose on an amazing ambitious product, a project, and they're just gonna go. It's much harder to transform someone who doesn't have the work ethic or doesn't get excited in the first place.

• 33:58John Coogan?

  And so we got some more Amjad wisdom here from Peter Yang. He says, if you're in tech, run in one of these directions. In this clip, Amjad shares two paths to future-proof your career in the AI era. Get as close, number one, get as close to the medal as possible. NASA won't use GPT JavaScript to run rockets, or two, become a generalist who can go from idea to end product with AI end to end. Amjad and Peter had a great time chatting. They said they covered why now is the best time to learn to code, a live demo of building a nutrition tracker app, the rise of personal apps and the future of work. Here's some more quotes from Amjad. He says, the return on learning to code doubles every six months. This is

• 34:39John Coogan?

  Amjad's law. He's a good coiner. Coogan's law respecter. He says, AI automates many of the boring parts. What's left is you and your creativity. The most exciting part of coding, and that's 100% true. No one likes setting up servers, doing DevOps, writing boilerplate code. You want to get to the core value prop as fast as possible, and AI lets you do that. He says, the ultimate test for an AI coding agent is if you can make an app faster than you can Google for it. I think we've done it. I'll be honest with you, I think roadmaps are dead. And so.

• 35:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and this echoes what a lot of, this echoes what a lot of people have been talking about even at big companies now. They're saying, I don't, don't come to me with a PRD, come with a prototype. And the thing about building a prototype is, you know, a lot of ideas sound good in your head, or you're not exactly sure how they could work, how they should work. And then you hold it in your hand, and it becomes very, very obvious that you either nailed it, or there's something wrong, or there's some small issues. And so this, this ability to go from idea to prototype is going to massively, you know, much faster, is going to massively accelerate, you know, progress across all different types of businesses. So, love to see it. And congrats to the Riplet team.

• 35:54John Coogan?

  And our last bit of breaking news that we got to cover is. An article from Forbes that broke today. So we're breaking the news that Forbes is covering. Silicon Valley's Gundo for bros are building, the Gundo bros are building a Y combinator for military technology. It's called, uh, dissipulus or discipulus? How do you pronounce this? Disciple? Disciple? It's from disciple. Disciple ventures? I don't know.

• 36:20Jordi Hays?

  They gotta, they gotta, they gotta clip this and.

• 36:23John Coogan?

  This only exists online. And so I have never heard anyone say the word out loud.

• 36:27Jordi Hays?

  Discipulus.

• 36:29John Coogan?

  Discipulus? Okay. Discipulus Ventures. Andreessen Horowitz, Lux Capital and Point 72 Ventures are backing a new generation of startups in El Segundo, leaning into a magified, pro-Christian, mostly male-led version of Silicon Valley. Let's go. Forbes stills got it. They still got it. They're coming for you. Gundo bros, you're on notice from Forbes. You can tell. Just a little bit of like, let's make this a little controversial.

• 36:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they're spicing it up. You can imagine the right, you know, let's, let's give some credit to the, to the writer, the journalist. It's very possible that they came in with the story and they said, I love this team. I love what they're doing. This is great for every American. We want more, you know, smart, young people with capital to build ambitious, you know, products and companies for, you know, our defense industrial base. And the editor just goes, all right, well, how about, this sounds great. Let's run it. But how can you make it a culture war issue?

• 37:26John Coogan?

  It's great. I'm going to read some of this and I'm going to refer to it from here on out as DV. Cause I don't know how to pronounce this thing. Uh, last April, in a warehouse in El Segundo, the LAX airport adjacent neighborhood that has become the center of Silicon Valley's defense tech movement. Then 20-year-old student Jacob Deepenbrock was hosting the future of the American military industrial complex. Over the course of a week, he and a cohort of similarly college-age entrepreneurs brainstormed startup ideas, pumped iron and kept themselves focused and fed from a fridge stuffed with Monster Energy Drinks and 50 pounds of ground beef. Fuel of legends, he proudly told a Forbes reporter who attended the event held by his firm DV. I think I actually spoke at this, or I went to one of their events. I've been,

• 38:10John Coogan?

  I've been in touch with these guys before. Almost a year later, El Segundo's founders, or self identified Gundo bros, command the attention of some of the biggest venture capital outfits around. Lux Capital, Andreessen Horowitz, and Point 72 Ventures are among those who have backed more than a half of dozen of founders from the first cohort alone. They're pouring money into seed stage companies. Durin, which is developing autonomous drilling equipment for the mining industry. Rune Technologies, which is building software for military units to manage supply chains. And Vanguard Defense, which is building a data product for electronic warfare. Now, they've launched their own fund to back the second cohort of entrepreneurs that it plans to host for a week long event in coming months, raising $6 million from

• 38:53John Coogan?

  investors like Kevin Hartz, Champion Hill Ventures, and Leo Polo Vets. It's a small fund, but one with big Y Combinator style ambitions that align with the Trump administration's priorities. It's not like he's building an ad network trying to make money, Hartz told Forbes. He believes in his core mission of restoring industries and further, furthering the innovation edge of the United States. What you got, Jordy?

• 39:19Jordi Hays?

  No, I love to see it. It's, it's no matter what this journalist, whatever their, their views on, on Gundo bros, it's impossible to describe the companies that are being built and not get, you know, not get a little bit fired up. I mean, autonomous mining equipment. We've, we've talked about Durin on the show before. Vanguard Defense, a data product for electronic warfare. I feel like, you know, for us, we're competing, fighting for attention every day on the timeline battlefield. And so I think that we might want to get access to that because in many ways, you know, we're, you know, engaged in electronic warfare ourselves. But I, I love to see it in, in.

• 39:57Jordi Hays?

  There are already so many, the gundo has just been constantly getting memed. But if you actually go down there and you know, even, even the companies in my portfolio are absolutely crushing. Like there's, there's a lot of hype, but there's a lot of results. There's a lot of progress. There's been a lot of, you know, companies already that have transitioned from, you know, pre-seed through, you know, post-series A at this point. And they're doing that not off of hype. They're doing that by working in big, important industries that have, you know, completely lacked innovation for, you know, a really long time. So I think it's, you know, overall just awesome to see.

• 40:37Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, you know, we need more dedicated investment vehicles that are on the ground there, supporting the companies day to day. And, you know, those funds end up being, you know, kind of feeder funds for the kind of, you know, downstream series A investors that are not ready to write a $5 to $10 million check. When it's just a deck and a, and a, you know, a C corp, but, uh, will be there 18 months, you know, even a year down the line. Once they've sort of established their, uh, market and, and product and made a lot of progress. So, um, it's awesome to see.

• 41:10John Coogan?

  The culture war thing is so funny to me because there was kind of like version one of like right wing tech companies, which were like Parler, Gab, Truth Social. And it was very much like take an existing tech company and maybe that tech company leans a little left. And so we're going to rebuild it and it's going to be exactly a perfect clone of Twitter, but just like right wing essentially. And then, and then it became like, now we're talking about like, oh, I guess mining is right wing or, or like the military is right wing. Like these things are like pretty broadly popular, like, and so I think a lot of the culture war thing really is just like layered on here.

• 41:51John Coogan?

  And you're going to wind up seeing a lot of defense, hard tech entrepreneurs that are just like, yeah, maybe I support the current administration, but like. I'll support the next administration. I just support America and I don't really, I like, I like, I mean, Andorl had this for a long time where they had both, you know, co-founders that were on the right and the left. It worked out very well for them. They're there for America and even the worst, the worst American president is still a thousand times better than a near peer adversary leader who is actually, who's actively trying to undermine America. And so

• 42:26Jordi Hays?

  And my, my favorite, my favorite thing about these articles, anytime they try to dunk on the Gundo bros, they'd always, they always end up, you know, getting these Hall of Fame quotes, you know, like some of the quotes, Zaya, Taylor, Augustus, now, you know, this quote at the top of the article saying that 50 pounds of ground beef and monster is fuel of legends. It's like, it absolutely is. Like I want, I want our, you know, hardworking young technologists to be on a lot of monster and ground beef. It's, it's, it is fuel for legends. So I love to see.

• 43:00John Coogan?

  And so they're not competing directly with YC. It's a much smaller program, much more focused. But our boy Augustus Derico got a great shout out in here. It says, "The Elsukino community is lining up behind DV's accelerator with leaders from Varda and Hadrian expected to advise the next cohort of founders." Augustus Derico, a teal fellow who started a cloud seeding startup called Rainmaker, will soon host the group at his company's warehouse. "There's a lot of talk about defense, hardware and American dynamism," Derico said. "When push comes to shove, some of these people will become wildly successful." For Augustus, one of several very online Gundo bros, "This second cohort is further evidence of a shift

• 43:43John Coogan?

  away from an era of investment in consumer apps and B2B solutions toward a new one that favors America's national security interests and military prowess. It's a so-called vibe shift that has inspired a magified pro-Christian vision of Silicon Valley tightly aligned with Elon Musk and the Trump administration's goals. From billionaire venture capitalist Mark Andreessen, for example, has backed a venture firm called New Founding, which is building a Christian real estate enclave and hopes to be a part of an effort to forge new models and institutions that can shape the direction of Western civilization."

• 44:17Jordi Hays?

  So funny trying to position these companies as only aligned with a certain political cohorts goals because when you look at mining and military supply chain management and these sort of industries, they do in many ways directly lead to Americans not having to go die on the battlefield, right? I think it's the sort of idea of deterrence through strength is so widely accepted now and this idea that yeah, getting into a armed

• 44:58Jordi Hays?

  conflict with the United States is not a good idea. And so I think, again, hopefully, people come around to the idea that these oftentimes young 20 something year old founders that are building these companies, even if you don't like the fact that they're proudly religious in some way or like some aspect about them, you have to at least, I hope people over time from all sort of political backgrounds come to accept that they have Americans best intentions at heart, right? And they truly are the vast majority of the time on a feel like they're on a mission to support their country in their own way.

• 45:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, it also just seems like bad politics if you're driving a narrative that like every industry is now right wing. Like I get with like some of the some of the more like obviously overtly political companies, it's fine to say, yeah, like Truth Social is a right wing social network. But at a certain point, if you start saying, well, like building bridges, that's right wing, building roads, that's right wing, like, you know, shipbuilding, that's right wing, drilling, mining, that's right wing. Well, then all of a sudden, it's like you don't have any like jobs in your coalition, you don't have any workers, like you just don't have anything to grab. I mean, it's the same thing with like Tesla. Oh yeah, like electric cars, like that's no longer a left wing issue.

• 46:28Jordi Hays?

  I was muted. We should cover this more this week, maybe have, you know, some of the people involved, Simon or Delian on the show to talk about it, but we have some actual breaking news. The chat just, the chat just shared it. Adonius, thank you for flagging. We got a Wall Street Journal article. We are going to be breaking the Wall Street Journal's breaking news here, which is that an Elon Musk-led group makes a $97.4 billion bid for control of OpenAI. And, you know, there's a lot of rumors flying around at the moment, but we should maybe just get into this article and see if you want to just read through it live, John.

• 47:11John Coogan?

  Yeah, I got it right here. So Elon Musk-led group makes $97.4 billion bid for control of OpenAI. The unsolicited offer complicates Sam Altman's plan to convert OpenAI to a for-profit company. Let's see, there. So it's time for, this is what Elon said. He said, "It's time for OpenAI to return to the open-source, safety-focused force for good it once was. We will make sure that happens. OpenAI hasn't commented yet. Altman and Musk co-founded OpenAI in 2015 as a charity. In 2019, after Musk left the company and Altman became chief executive, OpenAI created a for-profit subsidiary that

• 47:54John Coogan?

  has served as a vehicle for it to raise money from Microsoft and other investors. Altman is in the process of turning the subsidiary into a traditional company and spinning out the nonprofit, which would own equity in the new for-profit. One of the thorniest questions in the conversion has been how the nonprofit will be valued. Musk's bid sets a high bar and may mean that he or whoever runs the nonprofit would end up with a large and possibly controlling stake in the new OpenAI for-profit."

• 48:23John Coogan?

  Because remember, the key shareholders in the new OpenAI for-profit, Microsoft, the employees of OpenAI, and then the nonprofit as well. And then, of course, all the other venture investors that have been along for a while. This bid is being backed by Musk's own artificial intelligence company XAI, which could merge with OpenAI following a deal. He also has several investors backing him, including Valor Equity Partners, Barron Capital, Atreides Management, lots of Dune references, I guess, Vi Capital, and 8VC, a venture firm led by Joe Lonsdale. Ari Emanuel, CEO of Hollywood company Endeavor,

• 49:04John Coogan?

  is also backing the offer through his investment fund. Musk has filed a series of legal complaints accusing OpenAI of betraying its original nonprofit mission by creating a for-profit arm and colluding with its largest investor, Microsoft, to dominate the development of AI. On January 7, Toborov sent a letter to the attorneys general in California, where OpenAI is based, and Delaware, where it is incorporated, asking that they open up bidding for the company to determine the fair market value of its charitable assets. Musk and other critics have said they believe OpenAI may undervalue the nonprofit when they spin it out. OpenAI has called Musk's legal claims baseless and overreaching, and said that the nonprofit will receive full value in its ownership stake of the for-profit. The company released documents in December that said it showed Musk previously supported

• 49:49John Coogan?

  turning OpenAI into a for-profit, but walked away because he couldn't get control of it. Toborov said Musk's investor group is prepared to match or exceed any bids higher than their own. If Sam Altman and the present OpenAI Inc. board of directors are intent on becoming a fully for-profit corporation, it is vital that the charity be fairly compensated for what its leadership is taking away from it, control of the most transformative technology of our time. You want me to keep reading?

• 50:22Jordi Hays?

  I mean, yeah, why don't you cover it?

• 50:25John Coogan?

  Let's just keep going.

• 50:25Jordi Hays?

  Obviously, I have a lot of thoughts.

• 50:27John Coogan?

  Yeah, the day after Trump was inaugurated, Altman appeared alongside the new president and other business leaders to announce a plan called Stargate, which we've talked about. Despite his close relationship with Trump, Musk wasn't part of that announcement. Hours after the White House press conference, Musk claimed on X that Stargate's backers didn't have the promised money and called Sam Altman a swindler. Altman disputed Musk's claims. Even before Musk's latest move, OpenAI faced numerous obstacles in what would be one of the biggest ever conversions of a charity to a for-profit company. Meta Platforms sent a letter to California's Attorney General in December expressing its opposition to the plan. And OpenAI is locked in negotiations with Microsoft and other stakeholders over how much equity they should receive in the new company.

• 51:10John Coogan?

  OpenAI has pledged to complete the transaction by late 2026 as part of a $6.6 billion funding round in October that valued it at $157 billion. It is separately in talks to raise up to $40 billion in new funding that would value the company as high as $300 billion. We talked about that. That's the Masa round. SoftBank conglomerate would lead the round and is in discussions to invest between 15 and 25 billion. OpenAI and SoftBank are separately trying to raise billions for Stargate. There's so much money going around here. It's crazy. Anyway, wow, what a crazy turn of events. Let's see how it plays out. What you got, Jordy? What are you thinking?

• 51:48Jordi Hays?

  You know, this, this is coming at a, I mean, it comes at a really wild time, right? Because

• 51:54John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 51:54Jordi Hays?

  OpenAI, OpenAI is clearly in the midst of structuring this new deal with Masa for a $40 billion round. At something like a $350 billion round. This, in a weird way, is like a new, you know, a hundred billion pound gorilla who's just coming in and basically making a bid on the same asset in many ways. And so obviously there's this weird corporate structure, but you still have to look at OpenAI, even though there's separate boards and a bunch of different sort of, you know, like you have to look at it all as sort of one unit, right? It's deeply interconnected and

• 52:35Jordi Hays?

  It's just so, uh, I didn't think this story could get more dramatic, but of course it did, right? Because if you look at, if you look at the amount of pressure that Elon has been putting on Sam from every possible way, right? From his own Twitter replies, all the way through getting Tuck, the, the OpenAI whistleblower, who, who passed away, um, to getting Tucker to have this guy's parents on, right? Like, it's just like the successive pressure. And it's a really, you know, what I find fascinating about coming in and offering basically a hundred billion dollars is that, uh, no one else in the room can come up with that kind of cash, especially given how much baggage is on the deal right now.

• 53:19Jordi Hays?

  It would be one thing if Sam Altman was going and he had a clean C corp and he was able to go to somebody like a Saudi Arabia or some type of Gulf investor group and say, hey, you know, I need to raise a hundred billion dollars to, you know, build out new data centers and you can get a bunch of preferred equity in this company. But now there's very few people, other than the richest man on earth, that could hope to come up with a hundred billion dollars. And so it puts both the board of the nonprofit and the board of the for-profit in a weird situation. And I don't know the exact, uh, you know, voting structure or what the underlying docs look like. But there's a very real possibility that this is Elon's way

• 54:03Jordi Hays?

  to basically force the board members to either vote with him or vote against the interests of the company, right? Cause he's saying, hey, if, if nobody will pay more than a hundred billion dollars for the nonprofit, then, and, and nobody will even be able to pay close to that, right? Then how do you, how does a nonprofit even turn down that offer? Maybe there's, because it's structured as a nonprofit and there's, but again, like there's actual, you know, uh, there's going to be actual like, um, You know, underlying documents that support the nonprofit and probably provide some type of clarity around,

• 54:43Jordi Hays?

  you know, the board has a fiduciary duty to the nonprofit and to the for-profit. And so it's just a very chaotic situation that could very easily throw off, you know, certainly if I'm Masa, you know, putting the biggest, making the biggest investment of your life into a company where you don't actually really know what you're buying and who you're going to be partnering with. It's just a very,

• 55:07John Coogan?

  It's a wrench.

• 55:08Jordi Hays?

  It, it, it, it's, it's a bit of a wrench.

• 55:11John Coogan?

  Bit of a wrench.

• 55:12Jordi Hays?

  And this, yeah, and this comes at a time like, obviously Elon's competing directly with OpenAI. He's spending $5 billion on a new, you know, training run. It's, it's, it's this sort of full court, full court, you know, press and he has a lot of good arguments, right? He can say, I funded this nonprofit.

• 55:32John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 55:33Jordi Hays?

  And I, you know, I still believe the technology is important and I, and, and I, and, and there's many ways, you know, look, you, there's a bunch of ways you can point out that, you know, and say, hey, Sam Altman, you know, has, has a pattern of, of not always, you know, his critics would say he has a pattern of, you know, not speaking, always speaking very truthfully on, on certain topics. And it's just a very, it's an interesting thing because Sam Altman, you know, known as the greatest probably deal guy in tech history. And, and Paul Graham, you know, will say like, he's the best like dealmaker that he's ever seen.

• 56:15Jordi Hays?

  And so what he's been able to do with OpenAI despite this sort of, all this baggage around the structure since day one is actually incredible. But then you're going up against the president's best friend who has, you know, the most, you know, personal wealth of, of anyone on the planet and so many different ways to apply pressure. So it's not a, you know, it's certainly not a.

• 56:44Jordi Hays?

  You know, who knows how it's going to play out, but

• 56:46John Coogan?

  Yeah. Certainly dramatic. That you you mentioned fiduciary duty. Now, it's weird because the not the board of the nonprofit actually does not have a fiduciary duty. That's the way nonprofits

• 56:58Jordi Hays?

  Because there's no

• 56:59John Coogan?

  Very oddly. Yeah. If you're if you're on a nonprofit board, you have a duty to the mission of that nonprofit, but you do not have a fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value. And that just changes everything. But then, at the same time, you look at this nonprofit. I mean, it's just looking at the numbers, 300 million for OpenAI, the for-profit, 100 million, 100 billion dollar, 300 billion for OpenAI, the for-profit. There's a 100 billion dollar roughly offer on the table for the nonprofit. Stands to reason that the nonprofit was going to get about a third of the for-profit. And so this nonprofit, I mean, I'm sure they have other assets, but really the most valuable golden goose on the balance sheet for this nonprofit. And nonprofits have balance sheets all the time.

• 57:42John Coogan?

  They might have an office. They might have typically, it's like, oh, we have, you know, we have an office, we have some

• 57:47Jordi Hays?

  We've talked about

• 57:48John Coogan?

  That's it. It comes some computers on the balance sheet. That's it. But here they have, they have, you know, like a massive double-digit percentage of OpenAI, the for-profit, which is like potentially the next Google and like, you know, already making tons and tons of profit or not profit, but tons and tons of revenue. And so you have this like incredible asset. And then, yeah, maybe you should be able to bid for it. I have no idea. This is completely unprecedented. I've never heard of any nonprofit trading hands in the open market like this. I don't even know how you would. I mean, it's pretty clear how you would value it, but I have no idea if you can actually do some sort of hostile takeover on a nonprofit like this. I don't know if the the board, like the board of a for-profit, if there is an offer to buy the whole company at an incredible price, that would maximize shareholder value.

• 58:31John Coogan?

  You have a legal obligation to take that, to take that deal, basically. And that's how the Twitter changed hands and lots of

• 58:37Jordi Hays?

  But there's

• 58:38John Coogan?

  Takeovers have happened. But that's not the same as a nonprofit.

• 58:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And the the challenge is so Sam is on the board of both companies, right?

• 58:47John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 58:47Jordi Hays?

  The nonprofit and the for-profit.

• 58:49John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 58:49Jordi Hays?

  Chat, help us out here. But in that situation, if if Sam is on the board of the nonprofit and saying, hey, you know,

• 59:01Jordi Hays?

  I, you know, I don't want to take this offer for any reason. There then becomes this, all this other, you know, everything is just deeply conflicted. Right? Like the whole structure is, is extremely conflicted in that this nonprofit developed this incredible technology, realized that it wasn't going to work to run it as a nonprofit, which I think everybody agrees. Right? It's very difficult to raise a hundred billion dollars for a nonprofit in a condensed period of time. And so the whole, like, it's just all twisted up and it's so conflicted that Elon would be able to argue, well, of course, the nonprofit board doesn't want to take this offer because Sam Altman doesn't want to let a fox into the hen house. Right? He, he likes what he has going, wants to run this company, but he doesn't have the best interests of the nonprofit at mind.

• 59:46Jordi Hays?

  Right? People can, he has a good argument to be like, Sam, a year, you know, a year and a half ago was testifying and saying that he wasn't doing this for, you know, the money. And now he has a, you know, seven percent, you know, 10, 10 soon to be, I'm sure 30 billion dollar stake in the company, you know, what's going on here? Right? And so what's, what is very clear is there's no precedent for this type of transaction in American business history, right? Where you have such a, what are you, what are you reading?

• 1:00:21John Coogan?

  I'm laughing because this is from chat GPT. Is Sam Altman on both the OpenAI nonprofit and for-profit board? And I have no idea if this is hallucination, but it's from chat GPT. So we're going to read it anyway. It says, he's not on both boards. He's on the nonprofit entity board, which is called OpenAI Inc., which sounds like a for-profit. And then that oversees the for-profit subsidiary, which is OpenAI Global LLC, which usually a for-profit is a C corp, but I guess it's an LLC. And it says he's not on the board of the for-profit entity, but he's the CEO of the for-profit entity. And I think in the, in the CEO turmoil, turmoil, he was removed from the board, added back as CEO,

• 1:01:05John Coogan?

  but then the board was reconstituted and some new people came in, but he didn't make it back on the board, I guess. It's all very confusing. I need like a chart to map all this out. But I guess my question that is always, I wonder. You know, there's, there's always this question of like, is, is the AI stuff valuable? Just because it's going to be a power law outcome, a trillion dollar company, and that will be incredibly valuable? Or is it actually like machine God? And, and all other companies would be worthless? And whoever controls the machine God will be God of humanity? And Elon and Sam have kind of gone back and forth on this. And it's always kind of hard to tell who is a true believer and who's not.

• 1:01:49John Coogan?

  They're saying one thing, but then you can say, hey, it's, it's God. And that actually helps you advance your mission of just building a great tech company. Or you can say the opposite is like, oh, I'm just, don't worry. I'm just building the next Google like, but really secretly you think you're building God. And so it, it's all very unclear, like where everyone stands and, and I don't know. I can't get to the bottom of it, but it's certainly entertaining and I'm glad we're covering it. It's a great time to have a podcast.

• 1:02:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. One, one thing that's very clear is Elon doesn't want to compete head to head with OpenAI. And he has access to the best talent and the most capital of, of anybody in history. Right? If, if Elon puts the word up and says, I'm building a new company, he can quickly acquire some of the best talent in the world. Now, AI is the most sort of competitive, uh, you know, sector in the world right now. But it says a lot that he's willing to put up a hundred billion dollars to acquire, uh, you know, a, a, you know, what, what would likely be 20 to 30% stake in the for-profit. Right? So that says a lot.

• 1:02:55Jordi Hays?

  I, I, I think it's totally possible that he believes that this sort of the talent density at OpenAI and the momentum that he has and, and his understanding of, of sort of power laws is just him saying, I need to own 20, like I need to own a large part of this company because he would rather, he just sees it as a much more likely outcome to, you know, owning the most important company in AI versus, um, a lot of people have said, oh, maybe OpenAI is, is Yahoo, right? And maybe XAI and some of these new competitors will come up and just, uh, leverage what OpenAI has learned and developed, but then just sort of build whatever the next platform is. So to me,

• 1:03:37Jordi Hays?

  It speaks volumes that he is saying, no, I not only am going to get into this like, you know, massive lawsuit and do whatever I can and put all this social and political pressure on Sam, but I'm actually willing to put up a hundred billion dollars of his money and his sort of coalition of investors to make this happen. So.

• 1:03:58John Coogan?

  Yeah, that makes me lean, that makes me lean like valuable tech product more than AGI God, because if it was truly just about a race to build the biggest, most powerful model, you'd think you'd want to just throw that extra hundred billion into the, into the next Grok training run and, and, and really just focus on yourself, King. And instead, and, and, and, and maybe like the, the fact that ChatGPT is in the home row of a hundred million people on their iPhones, like, maybe that's immaterial if you're building God. But this certainly feels like, hey, maybe that's actually an important step into building God, and it's certainly valuable. And so if there's a way to go get a piece

• 1:04:39John Coogan?

  of it, it is valuable. Very, very interesting development.

• 1:04:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think, I think you're, I think you're totally right. I think one thing, you know, this dynamic of everybody in the last like couple of months admitting that, okay, we have AGI now. It turns out AGI wasn't going to instantly transform everything. And if we do stagnate it all over the next 10 years, the dominant AGI company, which OpenAI is still the dominant, it's dominant in the consumers' minds, it's dominant even from professional use cases. And for him to say, hey, if OpenAI has a even a good chance at being the next Google in terms of something, you know, we talked about this

• 1:05:25Jordi Hays?

  before, right? If ChatGPT becomes the evolution of the browser and that's a consumer platform that you can own, he very well could be thinking, I don't want to, I don't want to go and. I don't want to try to build XAI from scratch into into being on par with OpenAI, because that is a very, once you have, like you've talked about, hundreds of millions of consumers that have this installed, that use it, that love it, having distribution through X is not going to change that, right? Like, he doesn't have, you know, even even sort of Mark Andreessen having, sorry, not Mark Andreessen, Mark Zuckerberg, you know, Meta has a better chance of of competing with OpenAI from a pure consumer product

• 1:06:08Jordi Hays?

  standpoint right now than XAI, right? Just because Instagram is such a larger, you know, platform. So anyways, absolutely wild.

• 1:06:19John Coogan?

  Very, very wild. Yeah. Well, mom and dad have been fighting in tech for months now, and just want them to get back together and be friends again. But I don't think it's going to happen. But we have some equally dramatic news. I've actually been referred to as the Elon Musk of sleep, and I've confirmed it now with my 100 sleep score from my eight sleep. Highly recommend eight sleep. I had to grind for this. It took me two weeks to get here. I retooled my schedule. I can now fall asleep just 9:30. Don't even need to listen to a podcast, just quiet my mind. Boom, I'm out in five minutes. It's amazing. And I think hopefully the viewers can see the performance is next level, next level.

• 1:07:03John Coogan?

  So our coupon code is actually live, TBPN on on eight sleep. You should go pick one up. It's really, it's really life changing. I really can't speak enough. I can't speak highly enough of it.

• 1:07:16Jordi Hays?

  It's a weird thing, because I had been sleeping on it at home, and then I went on, not a vacation exactly, but I've been on the East Coast for almost two weeks now. And it, having that taken away from you is just is miserable, because once you experience it, you're thinking, how did I ever sleep on just a, you know, lukewarm bed, right? And anyways.

• 1:07:43John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, there's so much drama on the timeline. You don't want to be, you don't want to be up late scrolling. You want to be in a nice cozy bed, just ready to get the next day started. What you got for me, Jordy, before we go into the China trade war in the Journal?

• 1:07:59Jordi Hays?

  You know, I love talking about tariffs, John. I'm not a tariff expert, but I'm a misinformation expert. And so let's try to apply that. Let's try to apply that lens to this, to this, to this piece you got here.

• 1:08:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, so China's strategy in the trade war threaten US tech companies. And this was very interesting because I didn't even know they had any sort of jurisdiction over Google. But Beijing just started a probe of Google and they now have Apple and Broadcom in their sights. Chinese officials are building a list of US technology companies that can be targeted with antitrust probes and other tools, hoping to influence the tech executives who are heavily represented in President Trump's orbit. People with, the people familiar with Beijing's strategy said the goal was to collect as many cards as possible to play in expected negotiations with the Trump administration over US-China issues, including tariffs. Beijing has already said it's investigating Nvidia and Google over alleged antitrust issues.

• 1:08:59John Coogan?

  Again, not sure what they can do about Google. I didn't even know Google had any presence in the country, but I guess they can put the screws to them one way or another. Other American companies in its sight include Apple, Silicon Valley tech company Broadcom, and semiconductor design software firm Synopsys. Synopsys has $35 billion acquisition, awaiting approval by Beijing. So maybe they bought some Chinese IP and it won't go through unless Trump plays ball. China needs to use all of the leverage it can to hit back at the US and antitrust is one of the most useful, says a tech policy specialist. And so China is on a chip gathering exercise, likening the countries to poker players.

• 1:09:42John Coogan?

  They want to come to the table to negotiate and need something to play with. The strategy carries risk, though. American companies recently have been less willing than Trump, than in Trump's first term to go to bat for China. And the threats could backfire by discouraging companies from investing in the country when that is what Beijing wants. Beijing has added to its regulatory tools in recent years, drawing lessons from America's approach. It in 2020, they created what's called the unreliable entity list, the companies mimicking a US entity list that blocks Chinese technology leader Huawei and others from doing business with Americans. In 2022, China amended its antitrust laws to tighten rules on anti-competitive mergers. Chinese officials hope to get the attention of people in

• 1:10:24John Coogan?

  Trump's world, including the executives who sat by his side on inauguration day, such as Google's Sundar Pichai and Apple's Tim Cook, which is interesting because Tim Cook wasn't actually in the photo with Trump. Somehow, Tim Cook is such a master negotiator that he's able to, I think he donated to the inauguration fund, but he wasn't in the front row, showing that he's not all in on Trump in this kind of iconic way, which also makes him a little bit fragile to Trump, but then maybe a little bit more durable.

• 1:10:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Tim is in a rough spot, right? China's been so important to Apple's growth and is now shrinking, right? We covered this last week. China, Apple iPhone sales are down almost 10% in China and Tim and the Apple exec team are trying to blame this on the rollout of Apple intelligence. I don't think anybody's buying that. Also, you know, if you produce the amount of products that Apple produces in China, Apple literally would, you know, barely be able to survive in many ways without, without China. And so he is in a, he's in a rough spot. And,

• 1:11:41Jordi Hays?

  you know, I think one thing, looking at this article and hearing how they're positioning China.

• 1:11:48Jordi Hays?

  Trying to sort of gather their bargaining chips, right? It seems that in 2016 and for the first Trump admin, the positioning from them, you know, people just felt like Trump was wildly unpredictable and just a little bit crazy, right? They were like, we don't know what he's gonna do. He's just sort of doing things and every single day you, you know, refresh the news and it's like, what is Trump doing today? This time around, I think that other countries and people internally in the US are thinking of him more as, okay, there's a method to the madness and he is playing his game, right? He's said is, you know, in his book and, you know, in many, many interviews, he just loves doing deals.

• 1:12:32Jordi Hays?

  And so he is playing a very, very high stakes game of poker. And I think other countries are starting to recognize that and see themselves as, okay, we're playing in this sort of geopolitical poker and we need to understand what our leverage is, you know, what are, you know, what our bargaining chips are. And really they're looking at it as like, okay, we're actually playing a very, very high stakes game. You know, basically betting our economies on each other and betting, you know, these different aspects of, of leverage. So anyways, we'll, we'll see, I think.

• 1:13:10John Coogan?

  I mean, it's certainly going to show up in the big tech earnings next quarter. We'll, we'll certainly be tracking this. This is an interesting lever to pull. It's not one that's been top of mind. There's a little bit more context here on mergers and antitrust. Mergers between multinationals typically require approval, approval from antitrust regulators around the globe. And they can fall apart if they fail to gain even one major country approval. We saw this with Figma and the EU. The EU has blocked a lot of mergers and a lot of Americans are like, it's two American companies getting together. But of course, these all, every company is multinational at this point. And so these multinational merger approvals are very important. In 2018 amid US-China trade conflicts in the first Trump administration,

• 1:13:53John Coogan?

  Qualcomm terminated its proposed purchase of Dutch chipmaker NXP Semiconductors after failing to obtain clearance from China. Imagine what a bummer that is. You're ready to do the deal and then China says no, and you're back. You don't get your liquidity event today. You gotta keep grinding, although I'm sure it's a big company, NXP. US chipmaker Broadcom.

• 1:14:16John Coogan?

  Broadcom tried to take over VMware that was valued at 61 billion when it was unveiled in May 2022. This was in peril until a meeting between Biden and Xi Jinping in November 2023. The two leaders agreed to dial down tensions. Shortly afterward, China green lighted the deal at the 11th hour with conditions requiring Broadcom to supply to Chinese customers. So yeah, it's that is that trading chips on the poker table.

• 1:14:38Jordi Hays?

  I don't. Yeah, so I don't think that the average person understands just how bad the communication channels have been between Beijing and Washington have been. I was able to go to a talk last year with a US, just US-China expert from this group, AEI, that's based in Washington and they have sort of chapters around the US. And he basically said that, you know, we put on the, you know, we, Xi came to San Francisco and there was this big deal, if you remember that, I don't know, was it last year or the year before at this point where we cleaned up San Francisco, we made it nice and we made

• 1:15:19Jordi Hays?

  it look like there's this, a real relationship there between our leaders, but there's been, there's, it's, it's so bad that there's not even really like direct, you know, phone, email lines, like it's very much like happening through channels and almost playing a game of telephone in many cases. And so

• 1:15:43John Coogan?

  This was the case in the Cold War. Kissinger was a back channel to China during the Nixon administration and it was extremely controversial for them to open up those lines of communication. Although now it's kind of the opposite because the relationship is actually falling apart more than it was rekindling. But Kissinger had to go to Nepal and then like smuggle his way in and then meet with Zhou Enlai, the The Chinese right-hand man of the premier and stuff. And then eventually Nixon went and that was really controversial. Now, you know, I think Trump is ready to, ready to play ball. I mean, he went and shook hands with Kim Jong Il, right? Or Kim Jong Un. And so he's ready to play ball, but he just wants to be able to do a deal that's, that's good in his terms. And there's so many chips on the table.

• 1:16:28John Coogan?

  And if you're the CEO of a tech company, you don't want to be one of the chips that Trump doesn't care about. That's the worst thing you can possibly be is, is, is not on Trump's good side. And he's like, oh yeah, like, I don't like the Broadcom guy anyway. So yeah, you can totally screw them over. No, you want to be donating to his inaugural fund. No matter what you think about the guy, you gotta be, you know, on his good side.

• 1:16:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:49John Coogan?

  When the time comes, he's ready to say, you know what? That's an American company. I care about them. They had my back and I'm going to have their back in this negotiation. I'm not just going to let you screw them over.

• 1:16:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:00John Coogan?

  So anyway.

• 1:17:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and people, people, you know, if you're purely in the, in the business world, you know, business is cutthroat, right? Everybody that started a company has a competitor that they hate and that they're trying to take market share from. And it's similar sort of dynamic where, you know, you, you don't want to be overtly at war with this company, but day to day, you're, you feel like you're in conflict and you're fighting. And oftentimes in those situations, you'll still have the, the contact information of your competitor, right? Like, I'm sure you've had, you know, fairly open conversations with, you know, where you'll have the number of a company that you're competing with, right? And you'll even talk and be friendly and stuff like that. And I think that's generally good. We have less than that with China, you know, between our governments.

• 1:17:45Jordi Hays?

  Like, there's not, it's not, you know, and, and people have freaked out in the past with Trump, you know, just calling, calling up other countries. Cause like, that's, he's taking very much the sort of business approach to government, you know, to government, which is, you know, really not the norm. So anyways, it's, it's.

• 1:18:09Jordi Hays?

  I don't know. I feel like some of the best, most pointed commentary on the US-China relationship is coming out of Palantir. Now, they have some, they have some, you know, specifically, their CTO has made some, you know, very clear comments like, you know, we need to, you know, we need to embrace, you know, they're a private company, right? They're in service of their shareholders and, you know, because of how many government contractors they have, contracts they have in many ways in service to the government, but they're able to come out and say, no, we are at war with China. And, you know, we need to be honest about that and our actions need to reflect that.

• 1:18:49Jordi Hays?

  But our leaders aren't saying, saying that, right? They can't say that because it's too, it just stokes too much controversy and, and potentially fear. It's not necessarily, there's not, not, not, not a lot of value coming from that necessarily. So anyways, let's see, one of, one of our, one of our, one of our listeners, I'm blanking on his name, is Gigalong Timu. So he, he really liked our, our Timu coverage. And he says, I forget, but he was posting and saying, if Timu hits like some certain share price, he's becoming a millionaire. So I, I, I want them to hit that price just because I

• 1:19:34Jordi Hays?

  want one of our listeners to hit that milestone. But then I want him to sell and then like, you know, then get aggressive. So.

• 1:19:43John Coogan?

  Oh, it's wild. Well, let's skip forward a little bit and give some quick hits on some follow-up news stories that we've covered in the past. Sonos finally hits the hard reset button. This is in the Wall Street Journal of the Day. Sonos chief executive Tom Conrad's job would be hard enough if he just had to sell expensive speakers. Selling the idea that his speaker company can finally master the software game is a heavier lift. That, however, is the task at hand for the new CEO. Conrad was named to the post last month, succeeding longtime chief Patrick Spence, who took the company public in 2018. The switch confirmed that Sonos is still reeling from a disastrous update to its app in May

• 1:20:25John Coogan?

  of last year, which left many consumers who shelled out for premium speakers unable to use their products. Fiscal quarter.

• 1:20:35John Coogan?

  Fiscal first quarter results from Sonos on Thursday confirmed that the damage has lingered. Revenue fell 10% year over year to 550 million for the December ending quarter, while operating income plunged 40% to about 48 million. Very rough. One particular telling stat is that the company's unit sales for the second half of the calendar year fell 14% from the year earlier to about 2.7 million products sold, the fewest for that period since 2016. And that was with the company's first ever entry into the premium headphone space. Ben, there are some incredible charts of how Sonos has been declining, a very, very rough bar chart there.

• 1:21:18John Coogan?

  Those headphones, called the Sonos Ace, should have been a valuable expansion opportunity for a company long confined to the home-based speaker. But that, but the launch took place about a month after the app rollout turned out to be the worst possible time. And so analysts now expect Sonos' revenue to fall 3% for the fiscal year ending in September after an 8.3% drop. Can the new boss eventually turn things around? Sonos is still a strong name in the premium auto, in premium audio, despite the damage done to the brand by last year's app fiasco. They, they, this week, they said that they would cut the size of the workforce by 12%. We will see if that's enough. The stock is way down relative to the S and P 500.

• 1:22:02John Coogan?

  There's another chart there of when they launched their app update, they are down almost, they dipped 40%, they've climbed back up a little bit. There's some good news from Morgan Stanley. Morgan Stanley, Eric, Morgan Stanley's Eric Woodring says, stepping back, "We are impressed by management's ability to rip costs out of the model. A tough demand backdrop and an elevated uncertainty still hangs over Sonos, though, indeed, only 38% of analysts rate Sonos a buy compared with 74% before the app rollout." The worst seems to be behind Sonos, but they are still early in their transformation. I don't know about that. I used the app this weekend, it was terrible. It's still terrible.

• 1:22:44Jordi Hays?

  I'm just pulling up the market.

• 1:22:47John Coogan?

  They are, they are having a rough, a rough, rough go. I was, I was in my garage looking at an old Sonos playbar that I have, I have it in storage. Hopefully going to reinstall it. I was thinking I was going to reinstall it in my house. Might just throw it away. It's been, it's been a rough, rough go and I don't know if they're, when they're going to turn the, when they're going to turn the corner, but they gotta just roll back the software and make it work seamlessly and flawlessly. You know, you can't have these like delays and these, and these breaks, even just like turning up the volume, turning down the volume. Like it just doesn't work anymore. So they have been, they have been struggling. Anyway, how's the market doing? Are you on public.com?

• 1:23:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I'm on public. I mean, it's honestly been, you know, it's actually up 16% in the past six months. So that just goes to show how, how, you know, bad of a situation they were in last year. I would say that the ace,

• 1:23:47Jordi Hays?

  the ace is an interesting, you know, product and I don't see that. Home speakers are the kind of things that you expect to just work, right? They sit in one place, you're coming in, you know, maybe you're putting Spotify on or whatever you do. Using Bluetooth, it should just kind of turn on or wifi should just turn on and work. But Sonos doesn't do that, right? Everybody that owns Sonos is oftentimes frustrated with them. I have Sonos products in my house. I wish that I didn't. I wish that I had, you know, just analog, you know, some type of analog solution. I think that there's this place I was staying this

• 1:24:27Jordi Hays?

  past week was like such a smart home that it was really like frustrating to use because it, it, it just. If everything's not sort of perfectly interconnected, it just kind of everything breaks down. And so the issue is if you give consumers the experience of a poor experience with physical products that are sitting in your home that should just work. And then you say, hey, well, we know you kind of had issues with this product. But now we're going to give you a product like headphones that you're going to wear potentially for hours and hours and hours all day long and use on car calls and apps and keep them around. And you know, there's there's even less tolerance, right? If you've ever had AirPods that are kind of freaking out and not working. It's very, very frustrating, right?

• 1:25:12Jordi Hays?

  And so I think the jump from home hardware to, hey, now we're going to build hardware that you're going to take with you all through your life. I don't want Sonos following me around when I leave the house. Stay, stay at home. Give me some, I need some peace, peace and quiet away from that, those smart speakers. But the other challenge is just pricing, right? The, the Sonos Ace is like about 350 bucks. You can get the Apple AirPods Max for about five, like $200 more. And had the issue with headphones is headphones are, I would say, more of a, in that category, more of a luxury item than a utility, right?

• 1:25:54Jordi Hays?

  People in 2025 care less about music quality overall because a lot of entertainment is happening through apps and things like that. And so if you're giving consumers a choice of, hey, you can use, you can buy Apple AirPods that are a luxury sort of fashion product statement, right? That says something about you. May not like that, but it's, it's true. Sort of an accessory. Or you can buy the Sonos Ace, which have no brand recognition, are still expensive at $350, right? It's, it's not a, it's not like they came in with the super budget option. That's just a really tough sell, right? No kid is going into Christmas, you know, teenager being like, oh, I really want the Sonos Ace, right?

• 1:26:37Jordi Hays?

  It's, it's very clearly, it, it doesn't feel worth even.

• 1:26:43Jordi Hays?

  You know, maybe they're as good of sound quality. They probably are as good as the AirPod Max is, but that is not the deciding factor. I think for a lot of consumers is I just want the best, you know, sounding pair of headphones and I want great value. They're saying, I want to accessorize by having this luxury product and I want something super reliable that integrates into my existing mobile experience.

• 1:27:06John Coogan?

  Yeah. And, uh, I mean, Mark Zuckerberg was on Rogan talking about how Apple has locked down, uh, some of the Bluetooth APIs that make AirPods so seamless to use and how, uh, Facebook wanted to integrate with the iPhone at a deeper level and Apple kind of made it difficult. And, uh, that's just a tough place to be in if you're Sonos and you don't have leverage over Apple. Sure, they have to open up some of the APIs and you get to use some of the Bluetooth stuff, but you don't get their proprietary network because Apple can always say, hey, privacy, if we give you two, if we give some random company too much access to the user's data, that's a privacy issue. And then the flip side of that, which is, which is good. It's a good argument. You do want, you don't want some cheap headphone

• 1:27:49John Coogan?

  company just stealing all your iPhone passwords or money or something like that. That makes sense, but when it's Sonos and they can review the code, they should be able to operate at the same level through the same APIs. But of course, Apple, you know, knows that they benefit from that and they're going to sell more, more, more products if they lock it down. So anyway, uh, we should move on to the Super Bowl.

• 1:28:08Jordi Hays?

  The last, last thing I was gonna say, if you think about AirPods as a business line being roughly equivalent, you know, in terms of importance as their agreement with, with, uh, you know, as, as Google, uh, Apple's relationship, right?

• 1:28:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Jordi Hays?

  Apple makes roughly $20 billion a year from that, that search, you know, partnership. AirPods are not as, uh, you know, not putting up as much, you know, profit margins, but as a $22 billion business line, Apple's not going to just give that away, right? Like AirPods will continue to grow. It's a very meaningful business. And so going and competing with, you know, you know, again, it, it almost feels like, uh, yeah, okay, they could sell some headphones, but certainly not going to save the company.

• 1:28:58John Coogan?

  Yep. Well, let's move on to the Super Bowl. Did you watch the Super Bowl? Did you watch the Ramp ad? What'd you think?

• 1:29:04Jordi Hays?

  I did. I watched the Ramp ad and I, and I saw some football too.

• 1:29:07John Coogan?

  Did you bet on the Super Bowl?

• 1:29:12Jordi Hays?

  You know, so not following, Juan, we've talked about this. I've never been into sports betting. We joke about sports betting a lot because it's just funny to me. To me, it's just funny. I don't, I don't really, I mean, I understand why people like to do it, but for me, I was looking, I downloaded DraftKings because I was like, all right, I've gotten enough of your ads. Probably thousands of people have told me to download DraftKings. Let me check it out. And I looked at all the sort of like preset parlays and the thing that was, I just don't know enough. I don't know anything about, you know, football. And so I was just looking at this sort of like Saquon oriented bets that I don't even know if they would have played out or anything like that. But I didn't bet. I did watch. I saw somebody post something that I think is

• 1:29:58Jordi Hays?

  cool. We're all sort of in our own digital worlds and like hyper focused on our own individual events, right? Like you and I are here, you know, freaking out about Elon making a bid on OpenAI. And if you walk out, if I walk out on the street in New York, somebody's thinking about, you know, cricket in India, right? Like we're just fixated on totally different things. The Super Bowl is very cool and the entire country can just orient around a single sort of cultural event. And it is as much of a cultural event as it is, you know, a sporting event. So

• 1:30:29John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:30:30Jordi Hays?

  I appreciate that.

• 1:30:31John Coogan?

  I had a post about this. Here's how I'm betting on the Super Bowl. 10x levered long FanDuel, 5x levered long DraftKings. American degens are going to lose billions today on parlays. They don't even understand. The house always wins. And I was texting with Saagar and Jetty and he said, he told me that FanDuel reports taking in over 16.6 million Super Bowl bets, a 19% increase from last year. Activity peaked at nearly 70,000 bets per minute, according to the sportsbook. I was kind of joking, obviously. This is not financial advice. I was not actually telling people to go 10x levered long FanDuel or 5x levered long DraftKings.

• 1:31:15Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you gotta be, you gotta be careful, John, because somebody in the chat.

• 1:31:19John Coogan?

  But I looked at the, I looked at the results for the past week. DraftKings is up 3% on public.com. Flutter Entertainment, I think they own FanDuel. They, they were, they were up 1.3% the last week. And the market is only up 1.1, the S and P 500. So oddly enough, DraftKings and FanDuel did outperform the S and P 500 during this Super Bowl cycle.

• 1:31:48Jordi Hays?

  John, we do not, and to be clear, we do not offer financial advice on this show. This is for entertainment purposes only. But, but yeah, I mean, a lot of that stuff had to have been fairly priced in just because everything's of course always priced in.

• 1:32:02John Coogan?

  We'll never tell you what to buy, but we will tell you where to buy it. Go to public.com for all your trading needs. And fortunately, the market is NPV positive, unlike sports betting. And so, you know, if you just took $20 that you were going to spend on every sports bet for the next sports season, and you just put that into an ETF, you would be fantastically well off. Sager went on to send me something. He said, based on the historical data up to April 2024, he said, if you would have invested $200 monthly for 34 months totaling $6,800, you would have bought 72 shares of the S and P,

• 1:32:45John Coogan?

  and the value as of April 2024 would have been 8,870 for a return of 28%. You really can't go wrong. He says, dollar cost averaging through February 2025, you'd be up 60% LMFAO. And you're not going to find 60% returns in the sports book, unfortunately. So we recommend staying away from the sports book and heading over to public.com.

• 1:33:13Jordi Hays?

  I mean, not necessarily factually correct because I'm sure a lot of people last night had, you know, like generational Mahomes haters just were betting the house against him having a rough night. They probably did well, but more importantly, should we talk about Tom Brady?

• 1:33:33John Coogan?

  We should, we should. So Tom Brady was taken to task by Derek Guy di workwear. He says he dislikes the grotesque opulence and flash of modern watches. And we have some info here. Tom Brady was spotted wearing a Jacob and Co. Yellow Sapphire Caviar Turbion watch worth over $800,000 is an exclusive. It's an extremely exclusive piece. And if you want to pick up an $800,000 watch, we recommend that you head over to Bezel. Download the Bezel app and pick something out. Not my taste personally. I'd probably go for something a little bit more subdued, but if you want to make a statement,

• 1:34:15John Coogan?

  can't go wrong with a Jacob and Co. Sapphire Diamond Caviar Turbion.

• 1:34:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, an absolute hitter. So we were texting with Quaid, one of the, one of the founders of Bezel, about this, this whole debacle and Quaid, Quaid, Quaid, you know, didn't actually have direct context as I'm sure it wasn't released, but he, he felt that this was such a ridiculous watch choice. And I'm sure even Tom felt silly about it that he said it was a possibility that it would be a, an actual paid, you know, some type of, of paid partnership. But, uh, you know, who knows? Uh, who knows? Certainly Tom has been photographed in some, you know, fantastic pieces, uh, over the years.

• 1:35:06John Coogan?

  I mean, as soon as this went out on TV, I was searching X just for Tom Brady watch. And there were thousands of tweets, like he grabbed the attention with it.

• 1:35:19John Coogan?

  Maybe in a good way, maybe in a bad way, but either way, he's raising the profile of, you know, fast of flashy watches, loud opulence is fully back with this watch. And there's a lot to like about this. Nothing wrong with a gold watch, nothing wrong with a big watch, nothing wrong with a tourbillon in a watch. So, you know.

• 1:35:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, nothing wrong with a, nothing wrong with a watch that is majority yellow sapphire.

• 1:35:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So I also thought something else. I didn't, I didn't really know this, but apparently these, these watches actually trade very quickly at a fraction of their, of their retail price. So they retail really high, but the secondary, the secondary market for Jacob and Co. is, is pretty rough, which makes sense. I don't think a lot of people, to be honest, it felt like very few people saw this watch and, and said, I, I need this watch. That's incredible. Whereas I've seen Tom Brady's, you know, you know, Tom Brady, you know, frequently gets, gets featured on like celebrity watch roundups and oftentimes they'll wear stuff that's like, yeah, that is a

• 1:36:26Jordi Hays?

  fantastic piece. Like I would love to add that to my collection someday. And so anyways, I don't know if it's hard to, I love XAI is trying to, trying to explain it. Why did Brady pick this watch?

• 1:36:42Jordi Hays?

  It's like, we'll never, we'll never know.

• 1:36:44John Coogan?

  Never know. We'll have to get him on the show and ask him. But let's stay with the Super Bowl. We're going to review some Super Bowl ads, of course, ChatGPT, massive ad, very controversial. A lot of people hated it. Some people loved it. Jack Appleby chimes in. He says, ChatGPT, what? You just lit $7 million on fire. Worst Super Bowl ad ever. Imagine having one of the coolest tech innovations ever and not showing the super audience what it actually does. God, that was a horrible ad. How did you feel about the ChatGPT ad, Jordy? When you, when you saw it?

• 1:37:20Jordi Hays?

  Uh, so Adquick partnered with Beehive. And they did a whole roundup and they they actually had it listed that this was a sixteen million dollar ad because it was full sixty seconds. It was a very, it was that, you know, basically the the the the ad unit for Sizelord. So, so I looking at it outside of the realm of where of the context that it was being played, I thought it was a fantastic ad. I watched it. I felt it had a lot of very cool symbolism. I it was a it was a lot more fun than anything that I've seen OpenAI

• 1:38:02John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:38:02Jordi Hays?

  put out.

• 1:38:05Jordi Hays?

  I thought, yeah, again, I've I've rewatched it since then. I thought it had good energy. It made me like OpenAI more.

• 1:38:12John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:38:12Jordi Hays?

  Right? Because a lot of this stuff like a lot of the criticisms lately, if you ignore Sam Altman, have been around, you know, and the nonprofit structure have been around. Oh, they're bad at naming, you know, that like what what's going on here? And so you're just focused on like, you know, using the app all the time, but you're like, oh, oh, one pro, oh, one this. And this felt like they kind of rallied around this whole, it felt like, you know, showing the sort of history of humanity through this, you know, very cool uh, in in sort of bits, right? It was just a very I felt like, yeah, you could easily apply all the symbolism and meaning behind it, and it felt inspiring and futuristic and fun. But then you put that in the concept in the in the context of

• 1:38:57Jordi Hays?

  hey, you had an opportunity to, you know, who is this for? I felt like this was a great ad for the technology industry and the sort of pow- almost like power users, right? But the thing is like, They're in the middle of raising $40 billion. This is a fraction of their probably like next 12 months ad budget and it's perfectly fine for, you know, perfectly fine for them to, to sort of light money on fire to, to, but.

• 1:39:28John Coogan?

  Yeah. The way I think about it is, is when you're a startup that's bootstrapping, you have a vision, you have a philosophy, you have a message for what you're building, a story that you're telling. And when you have no money, you're going to go direct and you're going to write maybe a, a thread or a long post or a blog post and put it out for free. And if it's compelling, it'll go viral and maybe it's a pitch deck and your idea is instantiated, your vision for the world is instantiated in a deck that goes around and is, is told to people one to one for free. Then as you get bigger, uh, let's say you're a billion dollar unicorn, you might be able to instantiate your vision statement in a really slickly produced video that you put out on Twitter or X or you put it on

• 1:40:10John Coogan?

  your homepage and it's a message from the founder saying, this is what we believe. And then you'll do some earned media and you'll keep telling your story. But when you're a hundred and 50 billion dollar company raising 20, 40 billion dollars, like you can just put your vision statement.

• 1:40:26Jordi Hays?

  You can just do things.

• 1:40:27John Coogan?

  That's the, it's basically just, yeah, it's just like, hey, hey, we got this cool vision video. It tells everyone what we're like. Why don't we just like put some spend behind it? And some spend in this context is a Super Bowl ad. And it's crazy, but, but yes, I, I agree that like, this is not a good direct response ad. This doesn't tell me what the product is, but this is, but as, as an individual piece of content, I liked it. But again, in a crowded room of people that are drinking beers and eating Doritos, like not the best way to, this almost feels like it should run before a trailer for the next Denis Villeneuve movie. Like you go see Dune and you see this and you're like, wow, that was aesthetic. The design is cool. The pixelation, the, the circles and it is

• 1:41:12John Coogan?

  tying into things, but. It's pure like brand building. It's not really like, hey, we're here. Here's what you can do. Install the app right now. It's the opposite of the Coinbase ad, which was a QR code to install the, the, the app. It's just like direct response. You know about Bitcoin. You're gonna buy it. Get, get it right now. There's a lot of ads that do that. Like there were, there were a number of companies that were like, hey, here's the QR code to download the app. We're giving away money or, you know, order on Uber Eats today. Order on DoorDash today. And this was very much just like, we have a vibe reel and we're putting it out. And we happen to put spend behind it. So it wound up at the Super Bowl.

• 1:41:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So one effect, one effect that was positive and that this is what they were probably going for is the takeaway of, oh, this is the next Apple, right? Cause it felt like very, it felt creative and inspiring and fun. And it felt like, you know, human and, and even though it was this sort of digital experience. If you wanted to say, how do we, if, if opening and, and OpenAI probably went to their ad agency and said, we want OpenAI to be, to fill this void that Apple left, right? Apple's like saying, gen emoji it. And like all this like slop, you know, slop out of home ads. Hey, there's this void. There can be this inspiring, uh, human centered consumer brand that sparks creativity and helps, you know,

• 1:42:32Jordi Hays?

  which is what Apple did, right? Now, the ad agency's job is to come up with something and they, and they, they can, they then convinced the company and saying, this is the right thing. Like you're gonna, you know, this is your moment. Like let's own this. Let's do a 60 second ad. And let's be the most, you know, inspiring, cool ad. It was like objectively the coolest ad that I saw, right? Ramp was super cool. If you're like Eagles or Saquon fan and you're already a Ramp customer. And it's like, wow, Ramp is this massive, you know, company that are playing at like the big, they're in the big leagues now. This isn't a startup anymore. If chat, if chat GPT, OpenAI wanted to come at this from the lens of, hey, let's use this as a user acquisition moment to like put heat on Google.

• 1:43:15Jordi Hays?

  I would have taken the $16 million and run four individual ads throughout the entire Super Bowl and just done 15 second ads, right? So it's like demonstrating how the product can be used in different ways of saying, hey, use it to generate.

• 1:43:27John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, tie it to sports. Say like, like, go to chat GPT right now and search, tell me the history of Saquon Barkley. Oh, explain to me all the rules of football, you know? Hey, I'm watching for the first time. Like, that could be a really fun use of chat GPT. Cause a lot of people are watching the football for the first time. Hey, I noticed that like you get the ball on the 30 yard line now when in, when the ball goes out of the back. That's a new rule to me. When did that go in? That's a question that I would actually chat GPT during the, during the game and they could have played on all that, done a ton of stuff just to drive downloads, but that wasn't the goal.

• 1:44:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they could have done an ad for the D gen sports betters, the, the sort of moms, the girlfriends that don't know about football at all.

• 1:44:09John Coogan?

  Hardcore fans.

• 1:44:10Jordi Hays?

  And to me, to me, to me, this is, I'm going to make a funny comparison here. So if I'm perplexity or and I'm Google and I'm seeing this open AI, I'm like, whoo, that was, that was close because they could have come hardcore for the sort of search answer engine type narrative.

• 1:44:26John Coogan?

  And I noticed when I was watching the game, I was Googling, I, I still landed on Google, Super Bowl stats, because I wanted to know how many rushing yards each team had and Google had a beautiful little like program out. It wasn't generative AI. It just plugged into that widget. I didn't even have to go to a sports website and it just gave me the exact info I needed. And that's something I could have gone to chat GPT for if they just built like a little module, little module and like made it fun and interesting and perplexity is doing that.

• 1:44:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:54John Coogan?

  And, and I'm sure that they, you know, next Super Bowl, they'll be there. But, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, interesting execution for sure.

• 1:45:03Jordi Hays?

  If, if you're, if you're a perplexity, right? Watching this ad, you're, you're, you're, you're sort of like, ah, my competitor, which they're very real competitors, right? Even if they're technically like marketing and just going in different directions. Uh, the perplexity team is like stoked because they're like, okay, chat GPT took an opportunity where they could have like dominated mind sure being this new search product and they like did this brand exploration.

• 1:45:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:32Jordi Hays?

  Uh, is similar to Drake watching Kendrick Lamar.

• 1:45:37Jordi Hays?

  You know, diss him, you know, aggressively through this thing, but put on what many people are saying is like the worst halftime show that they've ever seen, right? And so he's sort of like, he's sort of like watching. He's like, oh, like, I guess, like, I guess, you know? Yeah. Dodged a bullet a little bit.

• 1:45:54John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, it was the same thing where I think that Kendrick performance probably would have been great in a different context, but it just wasn't. People didn't think it was appropriate for the Super Bowl because, uh, you know, again, like Kendrick has all these like layered lyrics. It's almost better to listen to it like as an audio file with some great headphones as opposed to like in a loud crowded room when everyone's drinking beers and, and, and you can't really follow what's going on. Versus like the Kendrick performance two years ago at the Super Bowl in LA was like Dr. Dre and Snoop Dogg just playing like the biggest bangers. Everyone has heard these songs and it just looked like a party the whole time. And you're like, oh, okay. That's what a Super Bowl show should be.

• 1:46:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:33John Coogan?

  And, and it's not like the Super Bowl is so low attention span the whole time. People are second screening, they're talking, they're drinking, they're playing drinking games. Like breaking through with anything that requires any sort of secondary level of thought is just really, really difficult. But let's, let's move on to some other Super Bowl ads.

• 1:46:51Jordi Hays?

  T, T die in the chat says chat GPT cooked me a nasty plus, plus 1,000 parlay.

• 1:47:00Jordi Hays?

  So that like you could have, there could have been some, uh, but, but one of the.

• 1:47:04John Coogan?

  Even cooking, how do I make a great nachos? How do I make, how do I make wings? Like, like that's something you could ask chat GPT didn't, didn't break through in that way.

• 1:47:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:11John Coogan?

  Well, Jack, yeah.

• 1:47:14Jordi Hays?

  I was just gonna, last thing, because you called this out too, saying that part of the reason why they maybe just focus on the brand is just like the knowledge cutoff where if you go into chat GPT and you search immediately about stuff and like it actually is not going to be a good experience. It's great if you want to understand when was the last time, you know, the eagle, what are the, what five times have the Eagles won the Super Bowl or something like that. It'll nail that, but it won't nail the sort of like actual day to day, super topical stuff.

• 1:47:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, well, let's move on to the ad from the tech company that Jack Appleby really liked. He loved Google Pixels' Super Bowl spot. He said it was so touching. Said, I'm not crying, you're crying. No one's better at taking a tech feature and telling a wonderful emotional story while still making sure we all get the product benefit. This script is fantastic. And the screenshot here is a Google search bar saying, explain bullying to a child. So very like emotional, playing on the heartstrings of like being a parent, how you would use Google to, to, to solve a really complex and difficult topic. And Google's always been great at that, telling like a love story, an emotional story. And, and I think they've really done a good job of like telling

• 1:48:27John Coogan?

  some sort of like cinematic vignette that's emotional while still tying it back to the, to the product. What was your take on it? Did you watch it? Or are you seeing it?

• 1:48:36Jordi Hays?

  So I think, I think it was a well-produced spot. It's just like, there's such a big, is there such a big disconnect with, with a Google ad and what they actually are as a company? If I wanted to understand how to explain bullying to my kids, I would, I would Google, how to explain bullying to my kids Reddit, right? That's like, that's like the actual way that you would get that, like, imagine getting, like, getting, getting a Google Auto summary of like, how, you know. So again, I thought this ad was like very forgettable. I came away from it being like, okay, Google is obviously going to run a Super Bowl ad as a multi-trillion dollar company.

• 1:49:19Jordi Hays?

  Not going to remember it, you know, really ever again. I hardly remember the contents and I'm very much in the target demo, right? It was all about, you know, parenting and how to, how to, you know, so anyways, I thought it was a big miss.

• 1:49:30John Coogan?

  It feels like the prestige movies at the Academy Awards where at a certain point like, okay, yeah, I can just imagine that that this year's best picture nominees are going to be about like, oh, brave journalist fighting some big thing. And then, oh, like some foreign language film about like the Catholic Church or whatever. And I'm, and I don't even know what movies are nominated, but I'm sure they're going to be like the same, like heartstrings dramas that are like always prestige films. Google's just put out so many of these that they do, they, they, they fail to break through in the same way as like, I think the first time Google did it, it was very, very cool. But again, at least they're explaining the product because Salesforce did not do a good job with that. I don't know if we should move on to.

• 1:50:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And the last, the last thing, the last thing is like getting an ad from Google is like getting an ad from Comcast, right? Like it could be the most well-produced emotional ad and you're still like, cool. Thanks Comcast for taking up time that I'll never get back. You know, like it's not.

• 1:50:30John Coogan?

  Yeah. And so Salesforce, Jack Appleby says, what Salesforce, your Super Bowl ad makes no sense. Restaurants don't seat you outside in the rain and no one understands your AI product's role in reservations. Why? What a weird spot that serves no purpose. But they got your boy Matthew McConaughey on, in the ad. He had so many cameos and yeah, Salesforce has always kind of struggled with this. They, they, they tend to paint a very broad picture and they don't do a good job. It's interesting because it's kind of in the same, in the same realm as like, people were kind of criticizing the ramp ad because they're like, how many CFOs were really watching? But at least the ramp ad was like very clear value prop for the CEOs, for the CFOs, whereas this is like.

• 1:51:15Jordi Hays?

  But to be clear.

• 1:51:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:17Jordi Hays?

  To be clear, probably like 90% of CFOs were watching.

• 1:51:22John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 1:51:23Jordi Hays?

  Like anywhere. So, so yeah, you're, you're, if you want to, you know, sort of collect.

• 1:51:28John Coogan?

  Yeah. The flip side is that is that 90% of people who manage Salesforce installations were also watching, but they don't do a good job of showing the value. Like with Rampad, it's very clear. It's like, instead of expense report receipts and like dealing with filing expense reports, Ramp will make that faster. So what you should be doing in Salesforce is saying, instead of manually going through and tagging every, you know, every different line item in your CRM, Salesforce AI agents will do that for you, you know? But instead, it's like this very vague ad about Matthew McConaughey dining outside.

• 1:52:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think.

• 1:52:03John Coogan?

  It's, it's striking, but it doesn't tell me what the product is.

• 1:52:08Jordi Hays?

  Well, so you remember in 2023 where there was this controversy because it came out, I think in, in some type of shareholder report that Matthew McConaughey was making like $10 million a year to basically be like a ramp, like Benioff's like friend, like, hey, I'm going to give you 10 million a year to just kind of like do creative advisory on the company and stuff like that.

• 1:52:33Jordi Hays?

  Salesforce is in, is such a, I don't know, that like you get to the point as a, at a company of the size, it becomes, I think branding just gets so much harder at extreme scale, right? Where people have so much experience and their own opinions and feelings about your product, that it's really hard to overcome that, right? Like, Google is very much like cable for me. It's a utility. You know, I get email from them. I get search, you know, YouTube, things like that. But I don't really care to have like that much of an emotional relationship. And then Salesforce is the same thing where it's just sort of a dominant CRM provider. It's known for being clunky and hard to implement and, and, you know, it's, it's sort of almost like a necessary evil.

• 1:53:19Jordi Hays?

  And so just going and doing. Doing random stuff like this doesn't move the brand forward. It doesn't increase people's feelings. You know, I can't, you know, maybe, maybe the average American is looking at this and being like, I like Matthew McConaughey. Maybe I'll like, you know, maybe I'm more inclined to take a Salesforce demo next time I get head up by one of their SDRs. Like, maybe. Who knows?

• 1:53:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I mean, just, just brand awareness. They're in the game and they're just getting a little bit across, but they could have been more terse with it. Well, let's stay with Matthew McConaughey because a couple of slides later, Ben, we got Uber Eats with the most cameos in the Super Bowl ad. They got Matthew McConaughey there and I saw this ad and I liked it. I thought it was interesting because like it is a tech company advertising the Super Bowl. We barely even think about it because it's just a food delivery company, but I just thought it was like the perfect place to advertise this because you're, you're, you're eating. And there, and there's always last minute things. Everyone's ordering pizza. There's always Domino's and beer, beer ads during the Super Bowl. Uber Eats and delivery services is the perfect time to advertise. Oh, we forgot the wings. Let's see if we can go on Uber Eats.

• 1:54:26John Coogan?

  They had some really nice green bags, which I've never received Uber Eats in, but they really stuck out in every single shot that they framed. It was beautifully, the cinematography was beautiful and, and they got a bunch of cameos to kind of just draw your eye back to the screen for something that would otherwise be pretty boring, but it's the perfect time to think about, hey, I do want more chicken wings. Let's order that right now. And I bet a lot of people installed the app and I bet a lot of people just ordered Uber Eats while this ad was going live. So I thought it was a pretty good one. What did you think, Jordy?

• 1:54:59Jordi Hays?

  I actually didn't see this one. It might've been in the second half where the, the, I knew, I knew Ramp had it, had the game in the bag. So I just kind of checked out.

• 1:55:08John Coogan?

  Okay. Well, let's move on to the Instacart one. I don't know if you saw that one.

• 1:55:12Jordi Hays?

  No, but, but yeah, look, looking at Uber Eats and these sort of mass market consumer products. It is, I think the Super Bowl is a great way for an enterprise company to say, hey, we're here. We're playing in the big leagues. It's a tougher place to stand out if you are, you know, a dominant, you know, enterprise company already. And people already have an opinion, but great opportunity. Again, probably some of the best money that Uber Eats will spend this year, even if it doesn't have the sort of direct attribution that they might have on other channels.

• 1:55:43John Coogan?

  Yeah, and I think Instacart, interestingly, obviously a direct rival in many ways. More for grocery than food delivery, but still in the delivery game. Jack Appleby says, wow, Instacart got some crazy brand cameos for their Super Bowl spot. Kool-Aid guy, Mr. Clean, Old Spice guy, Pillsbury Doughboy, and of course Puppy Monkey Baby. I don't even know what that means. Chester the Cheeto, Cheeto is there. Chester the Cheetah, who is Cheeto's mascot is there. And I always wonder how these brand collaborations work. Do they, do they wind up paying part of the ad spot bill? Like if you're Cheeto's brand and you say, hey, it's a $6 million ad spot.

• 1:56:26John Coogan?

  We'll put in a million dollars if you're promoting Cheetos in your Instacart ad, even though it's an Instacart ad. Or is it kind of just like a friendly handshake thing?

• 1:56:34Jordi Hays?

  No, it's very.

• 1:56:35John Coogan?

  I always wonder about that.

• 1:56:37Jordi Hays?

  Who knows what the deal looked like? It's very possible that this was Instacart's way of hacking a free ad by going to the IP holders and saying, hey, I'm going to get you in the Super Bowl for a million dollars instead of, you know, whatever. And you're going to get that exposure to the audience. And that's just an easier decision to make. An Instacart might have cut the, you know, piece up and said, hey, everybody's throwing in six million or eight million or four million, whatever. I don't know how long the spot was, but um.

• 1:57:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:07John Coogan?

  I mean, again, I was thinking, why Combinator should run a Super Bowl ad? Carve up the six million into 60 different companies. You get half a second, your logo flashes on the screen.

• 1:57:17Jordi Hays?

  We almost, we almost did that back in the party round days. We, we got like a very last minute offer. It was like.

• 1:57:25Jordi Hays?

  30 grand and for for like a 15 second spot in like the nor you know, the northeast or something like that. You're gonna cut it up and do like a last minute thing like drop your logo, but the logistics of getting all the approvals and everything just didn't work out.

• 1:57:41John Coogan?

  Well, it would be fun. And last but not least, we got to close on the ramp ad. I love that they've been doing a lot of follow up. They've really been getting all the juice out of this lemon they're squeezing. Eric Lyman today writes, why did Ramp make a Super Bowl ad with Saquon chasing down expense reports? Because while everyone was watching the game, finance teams across America were still working to close January's books. I was surprised to see in our analytics that tens of thousands were working the weekend. They deserve their moment in the spotlight. And so, you know, I think I think the ad went over very well. It was very clear and it delivered very quickly and I was happy to see it live. Any more to say on Ramp ad?

• 1:58:23Jordi Hays?

  Absolute dog, absolute dog. I mean, at the end of the day, I just would highlight again that I feel like Eric and Saquon are, you know, basically the same person on just different paths, just humble, humble savages. So it was awesome to see, you know, as much as yesterday was a win for Billy's fan, it was a win for people that like finance automation. So what a day.

• 1:58:50John Coogan?

  Said it better myself. Completely agree. Well, let's move on to some timeline, some news from Axe over the weekend. Ben Hylak says, if O3 was the 175th best programmer in the world, every company in the world would immediately stop hiring software engineers. We clearly need a better way of measuring what LLMs are capable of, because OpenAI's reasoning model has been climbing the rankings and has been ranking very highly in terms of software engineering, but still has yet to be fully implemented at a lot of companies. What do you think? There's always the argument that this stuff is just additive. You keep your software engineers and you let them do more with the new tools, or in the future,

• 1:59:35John Coogan?

  maybe you don't hire them at all. What do you think?

• 1:59:39Jordi Hays?

  No, I think it's a

• 1:59:42Jordi Hays?

  I think it's a good, I mean, I think it's just a great framing from Ben. I mean, Ben and people that listen to the show know that Ben did the Jaguar redesign. It also has an AI analytics company. But it's a very good, it's a very good point in that. You can say that O three is ranked as the 175th best programmer, but in practice, it doesn't feel like that when you're using it, right? It doesn't, you know, it doesn't feel like you have a top 1,000 programmer in the world coding with you. It feels like you have more, you know, people position it more as like a very good new grad that can work extremely quickly, right?

• 2:00:26Jordi Hays?

  Which is still very valuable. And so like, I think calling out that difference between what it's capable of. But then what matters more is how companies are able to leverage it internally. Right? And OpenAI, you know, clearly is still hiring software engineers. They're also not getting the same value as 170. So it's like ability and value, right? Everybody's hired employees who are like ridiculously talented, but then can't deliver on that talent in your organization. And that kind of feels like where O three is at and just all models in general. It's like, hey, you're clearly brilliant, but like you got to be able to do a bit more for me here. Right? For it to like, you know, sort of live up to the expectation.

• 2:01:12John Coogan?

  Yeah, a lot of supervision still involved. Have you been following the AI.com drama? There's a tweet here.

• 2:01:19Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:01:20John Coogan?

  Breaking, DeepSeek may have bought the domain AI.com. And it now redirects straight to their site, just like how OpenAI, Snap, Up, Chat.com, our domain power moves, the new arms race in AI. But Pierre Richelson says, AI.com is the wildest thing out there. No, it's not changing hands. There's a person behind this URL, switching from OpenAI to XAI and now to DeepSeek.

• 2:01:48John Coogan?

  What a fascinating hustle. What are they getting out of this? I don't understand.

• 2:01:52Jordi Hays?

  No, so, so what's really obvious here is that AI.com is owned by a domain investor. And nobody, nobody, they've clearly gone to all these different companies and tried to sell it.

• 2:02:04John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:02:04Jordi Hays?

  Uh, to them. And now they're, they, you know, they probably, I'm sure like any of these companies would pay five million dollars for AI.com, right? Just to kind of have. But I don't think it's that great of a name for a bunch of reasons, or like necessarily that valuable. And I, so I think a lot of these companies are probably looking at it and being like, well, we have, our name's OpenAI. ChatGPT is our core consumer product. XAI is like, okay, XAI is a pretty good name. And it's very possible AI.com has, has some, is saying like, I wouldn't sell it for less than a hundred million dollars. And so now they're trying to create leverage and they probably have some traffic.

• 2:02:49Jordi Hays?

  And so they're just trying to create this leverage between the different groups of being like, at any moment, it might go to your competitors. So now it's redirecting to you and now it's redirecting to you. And so anyways, yeah, it's technically smart. But the thing about the domain space is people are just, uh, you know, we, we talked about that story that, um, that Rob had shared from Snagged, where the Instagram, the owners of Instagram.com sold the domain and then sued Instagram later and said, oh, it wasn't sold with, you know, the daughter signed off on the sale, but not the family who really owned it. And they tried to claw it back and all this stuff. So the domain space is like still the wild, wild west.

• 2:03:30Jordi Hays?

  Uh, the craziest domain deal I did was for a domain that was like owned by like a Chinese investment group, which was smooth to their, to their credit, but, um, it was still a weird, like long, you know, months long negotiation. So anyways, I'm, I'm interested to see where this ends up.

• 2:03:49Jordi Hays?

  It could be one of those things that it ends up not even being bought by a new player and gets bought by a Google or something like that.

• 2:03:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's odd because obviously like webbrowser.com was not important in the browser wars. Chrome never, I don't even know if they own chrome.com. You just go to Google or Bing and you type in install Chrome and that's the end of that. But let's move on to some amazing news. Eddie Zoo says he got banned from the Columbia Hackathon for being too young. So we snuck in and we won. And he said, big shout out to a bunch of people. And yes, we told the organizers and returned the prizes afterwards.

• 2:04:30Jordi Hays?

  Wow.

• 2:04:30John Coogan?

  What a heartwarming story. Absolutely.

• 2:04:32Jordi Hays?

  Get these.

• 2:04:33John Coogan?

  Kids. Fantastic.

• 2:04:36Jordi Hays?

  Get these Chad's and Doge. They're ready. They're ready.

• 2:04:40John Coogan?

  They're ready. Yeah. You can just do things incorporated. I love it. Yeah. Very exciting. I mean, I don't know why there's an age gate on Hackathons. Maybe it's something about Columbia wanting to restrict it just to students, but I love that they snuck in and hilarious that they won.

• 2:04:56Jordi Hays?

  There's some, there's some students that would be seven, that could be, you know, just, you know, a year ahead or something.

• 2:05:04John Coogan?

  I was thinking it might be some sort of like insurance and like legal liability because like you're staying up all night at this Hackathon. And to be on campus, you need to sign some waiver because the school is technically responsible for you. But you know, seems like a victimless crime sneaking into a Hackathon. I love that they built some stuff. I hope that Eddie posts more results of what they actually built. I want to hear about it. I want to follow the story. Eddie, if you're listening, send us more breakdown of what happened. How'd you sneak in? What'd you have to do? Did you have to go out in the back door? What'd you have to do? Leave a door open?

• 2:05:38Jordi Hays?

  Eddie, come on.

• 2:05:39John Coogan?

  Credentials. What are the layers that you did? Were you wearing a fake beard, fake mustache, glasses? Was it three kids in a trench coat? I want to know what happened. Break it down for us.

• 2:05:49Jordi Hays?

  Three builders in a trench.

• 2:05:52John Coogan?

  Three cracked builders in a trench coat, three zoomers in a trench coat. That's the way you get into the Columbia Hackathon, but congratulations on winning. We're very happy for you and good luck to whatever you build next. Let us know. Let's move on to Dirt Man BSAC. He says, he's been on the show before. He says, people think making the moon a state is just a meme, but there is a real tangible pathway there. And he shares the video of Newt Gingrich. 13,000 people is what it will take. What does that look like practically? Assuming that Starship can carry 100 people to the moon, that means we only need 130 launches there to carry the people. Let's four X that, let's four X that number for equipment and orbital refueling.

• 2:06:37John Coogan?

  That's 520 launches. And so he estimates $60 million per launch. We get 31 billion in launch costs. Totally doable, less than Stargate and we have a moon base. And so I love to see people breaking down when the moon should be a state meme broke through and Solana was pushing it. I did a deep dive on moon law a little bit, wrote a thread, kind of breaking down how it actually worked. It's fascinating. I think this is going to be a topic of conversation for many, many years to come and it's going to break through any day.

• 2:07:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And to be clear, us going and renaming the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America is just sort of foreshadowing for, you know, you know, I don't know, would we keep moon as the name? Would we name it New America, you know, something like that?

• 2:07:24John Coogan?

  The proposal is just, there's a 51st state and it's just called moon. And so you're in Massachusetts. I'm from Florida. You're from moon. The end. And I'd be happy with that.

• 2:07:36Jordi Hays?

  I'd be happy with that.

• 2:07:38John Coogan?

  We need a governor. We need, you know, some, some interstate freeways up there. We need parking lots and McDonald's and all the, all the things that make it an American state.

• 2:07:51Jordi Hays?

  I told you for my next son, we were thinking about the name Rocket, little Rocket Hayes.

• 2:07:57John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:58Jordi Hays?

  And that'd be a cool story, like, yeah, I grew up in California, like, I was born in California, but I really mostly grew up on the moon. And it's like, okay, a little bit of nominative determinism there, little Rocket.

• 2:08:11John Coogan?

  I love it. Well, let's move on to some more amazing and good news from real news, eerie, I guess. The Irishman that was stabbed in the neck today is all stitched up and he's back in the pub. The Gales are a hardy bunch. Let's go. He says throat stitched up, attacker in custody, beers on tap. We live to see another day. So congratulations to the Irishman that was stabbed in the neck. You have fought and won, and we're proud to support you on this program.

• 2:08:43Jordi Hays?

  I never saw, I never, I never knew that he was stabbed. So this is amazing for me to just see that this guy's at the pub. That's really the news for me, just having a nice time at the pub. So love to see it.

• 2:08:57John Coogan?

  Well, we got the timeline in turmoil once again. Palmer Lucky says, I'm once again asking ZDNet to publicly retract their bogus 2018 story claiming, I was fired for stealing trade secrets after a federal court ruled I was guilty of the same. The way they have handled this is insanely unethical. I was never found guilty of anything, which is true. And so Paul Graham chimes in and says, why don't you just sue them? And Palmer says, because it's, it isn't illegal to publish falsehoods about public figures. On the balance, it's probably good that the state cannot outlaw crappy journalism, but it does mean putting up with this type of nonsense. And so Palmer's only recourse is to take to X.

• 2:09:38John Coogan?

  Paul PG follows up by saying, it seems like you can sue them if they deliberately with actual malice publish lies. And one could argue that they are doing this if they don't correct an article that they know to be false since the publication of an article on the web is ongoing. I'm not a lawyer, but just deliberately refusing to update an article that they know contains lies seems to me libel in the spirit of the US law. If a US judge agrees, it would be a valuable precedent. And so Palmer has been fighting the good fight against muckraking tech journalists. I think that these journalists should just stick to the stables, stick to dressage, maybe a little jousting here and there. Just head out to the family, the ancestral estate.

• 2:10:20Jordi Hays?

  Estate.

• 2:10:20John Coogan?

  Play some, play some life-sized chess. Stop writing hit pieces and just enjoy a nice glass of champagne in the morning while, you know, a string quartet plays classical music for you to wake up to. Life could be so easy, but instead you choose violence every day on the internet.

• 2:10:40John Coogan?

  So tech journalists, you're on notice. Let's move on. Kevin follows up with a beautiful screenshot from Polymarket. Will it's Kevin win Reply Guy of the Month? 100% chance. So congrats to Kevin. Enjoy this meme from when I was trying to win TBPN Reply Guy of the Month in December. We love Kevin.

• 2:11:00Jordi Hays?

  You know, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna make an impulse decision right now and hopefully back it, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Kevin is this is, is the February 10th Reply Guy of the Week now.

• 2:11:12John Coogan?

  Let's do it. Let's do it.

• 2:11:13Jordi Hays?

  We just did it. Congratulations, Kevin.

• 2:11:16John Coogan?

  Congratulations, Kevin.

• 2:11:16Jordi Hays?

  Fantastic.

• 2:11:17John Coogan?

  Reply Guy of the Week.

• 2:11:18Jordi Hays?

  I like this. I like this asset. He clearly, you know, did the work. It looks nice.

• 2:11:23John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:11:24Jordi Hays?

  It's on brand. That's like a nice emoji bottle. I think we might need it.

• 2:11:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, the dom pairing on is very carefully matted. There's no rough edges. This was photoshopped. This is artisanal meme making. Very, very high quality. I mean, you can tell with his, with his badge, he's a member of a esteemed meme making community. We've seen this badge all over X and we're happy to have you in the community, Kevin. Let's move into a post by C Mac says the average European employee's workday and it's a day in the life of Brunello Cuccinelli 6am wake up in his countryside house. This could be a tech journalist for all we know. Revel in the silence of nature slowly get dressed at 7:45am breakfast at the village bar coffee and a croissant takes some time to plan the

• 2:12:11John Coogan?

  day ahead 8:30am walk to the office morning work block dedicated exclusively to design work no meetings or gaps 1pm walk home for lunch pasta with olive oil and tomato sauce 2pm 30 minute siesta a crucial part of the farming culture he originally comes from 3pm afternoon work block admin ops finance production and plans for the next day at 5:30pm the whole company stops work entails the late afternoon off takes the late takes the late afternoon off Brunello plays places a high premium on rest soulfulness and personal study at 8pm he has a light supper reading from his 5000 book library let's go 9pm he heads off to

• 2:12:53John Coogan?

  the cafe to meet friends they discuss politics philosophy religion and other subjects late into the night Jordy what do you think is it a winning formula for a good day?

• 2:13:04Jordi Hays?

  A lot more work in here than the average European workday I would have to imagine so you know calling one of Europe's top CEOs you know average is sort of you know throwing a little bit of shade but this just made me think I think we need to do a deep dive on who's more goaded Brunello Cuccinelli or Pietro Loro Piana and because a lot of people say Brunello just like copied Pietro's like whole like sort of like thing like copied his bit basically and so I think if we did you know who's basically the goat of goat debate basically yeah for for venture capitalist you know attire I think that'd be good.

• 2:13:51Jordi Hays?

  I'm a little biased. The suit I ordered last time I'm in New York, I was in New York's Laura Piana fabric. So pretty excited for that. But we really got to nail down the go debate here.

• 2:14:02John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, you take that side and we'll get someone to debate the Brunello side of the debate and we'll have us a fight and knockout, drag out fight. It'll be great. Well, let's move on to a fantastic promoted post from Wander. They say, feeling spontaneous. We just dropped the price at Wander Brandon Beach to $395 a night from tomorrow to February 14th and February 17th to 21st. It's one of the most beloved locations near its world famous Brandon Dunes Golf Resort. So if you're a golfer, go check out this Wander. It looks wonderful. And we have another post from Wander that I wanted to highlight because this place, I might be locking this down pretty soon. This looks amazing. So Jerry

• 2:14:43John Coogan?

  Lee says, I miss waking up to these views. Stayed in the most stunning house in Palm Springs via Wander. And if you click forward Ben, there are some closeups here. Really, really iconic. The vertical post doesn't do it justice, but it has this amazing circular pool with a jacuzzi out in Palm Springs. Looks like just a fantastic place to stay. Couldn't recommend it enough. And of course.

• 2:15:08Jordi Hays?

  We need to do our first shirtless episode and.

• 2:15:11John Coogan?

  I think, I think this is, it's so cinematic. It's so cinematic. Like, I have no idea, you know, everything else, would it fit everyone? You know, I'll figure out all those details, but I gotta be there. It's looks beautiful. I mean, if you're listening to this, it's just, it's just one of the most beautifully designed buildings. I mean, it looks like it's just incredible. I can't say enough nice things about it. So go check it out and just browse Wander and see what's out there because there's so many good opportunities for, you know, vacations, offsites, company offsites, events, all sorts of different stuff. Highly recommend it. Well, speaking of shirtless podcasts, I hope Theo Von and Alex Wang are ready to strut their stuff because they're doing a podcast together, baby. I love this. I think they met at the inauguration

• 2:15:56John Coogan?

  in DC. There was a photo of them. I think Theo Von's like chair broke or something or something crazy up and where like one of the Logan Paul brothers, like Jake Paul like fell down and Sam Altman and Alex Wang turned around and Theo Von was there. Really, really funny world colliding moment, but Alex Wang writes, coming soon to a podcast app near you. He's doing the Theo Von show. Theo, obviously an amazing comedian. He's interviewed Donald Trump. He's interviewed tons of comedians, tons of great people. He's really, really created a lot of breadth with his show. And now he's got Alex Wang on, the founder of Scale AI. Not a lot of B2B enterprise company founders making the podcast circuit, but Alex Wang is cutting his own, his own path.

• 2:16:41Jordi Hays?

  I mean, this, this is, this is an amazing and very unpredictable collaboration, but I absolutely love it. I, I only listen to founders podcasts, but if I were going to listen to another podcast,

• 2:16:57Jordi Hays?

  it would be, it would be this specific episode. I also have to, one of our, one of the posts from last year that went super viral was a picture of Theo Von in a suit. And I said like Doug Leone, founder of Sequoia, colorized. And like, it went super viral, but I don't think most people, I think like half the people didn't realize that it was Theo Von.

• 2:17:21John Coogan?

  You've sent me pictures of Theo Von multiple times and I've been like, that guy, like who's the guy? And for some reason, when I see Theo Von out of context, I'm like, that's not Theo Von. But of course I know who Theo Von is. It's very odd. He is a chameleon. It's great.

• 2:17:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:37John Coogan?

  Well, let's move on to Signal. Signal writes, I haven't posted on Instagram since October. None of my friends have either. Insta feels like a dying mall. Everything is just ads and influencer noise. Friend content has virtually diminished for me. I open it only because people still send memes. What's your Instagram experience been like?

• 2:17:57John Coogan?

  I haven't really been using it in a number of months. I got a new phone and I didn't install it onto like the home screen, so I never really open it. I check it every once in a while and I basically just see who sent me some memes and that's it. But I haven't posted on it in years. I've just been private. I want to retool it as a, as a business account essentially to put some of our content on there. But I don't see it as a way to connect with friends anymore. All of that has moved to iMessage and, and Signal group chats and that type of stuff. I'm not really connecting with friends on any meta products right now, unfortunately.

• 2:18:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I thought that was notable. I mean, I still use Instagram, but more specifically around interests and then connecting with friends, like mostly connecting with my non, like the vast majority of my, you know, like most important friendships now are oriented around tech and work and business and stuff like that. But my non-tech business relationships are mostly on Instagram still. That's where I sort of keep up with. There's housekeeping at my door right now, but so I'm gonna have to get that in a second. But, um, but anyways, I think it's potentially a dying app, at least for Gen Z and potentially sort of millennials broadly. And the question

• 2:19:15Jordi Hays?

  then becomes what, where, what's Zuck's next app, right? Because that attention is going to go somewhere and it's important for him to own that attention. And that, if, if Instagram goes the way of Facebook, right, which I legitimately haven't logged into in, in, you know, years, what happens to Meta's, you know, business from there?

• 2:19:39John Coogan?

  I mean, the, the weird thing is that like it could, it could go the way of Facebook and it could still retain a ton of user seconds in the sense that people could just be on there, not creating any content, not, not connecting with friends, purely watching it like Netflix, endlessly scrolling reels. And that's the, and that's the revenue profit maximizing thing, which is a little sad because the, the mission of Meta has been for a long time to connect people. And that is cool when they do that, but they do seem to be losing that. I'll read through some more posts. Feel free to get that that door if you need to. Let's go to Sean Frank and Ben, you can pull up this image. He says, their love of the game keeps me sane.

• 2:20:22John Coogan?

  And he's sharing a meme. He says, Mom, can we have authentic enthusiastic tech journalism? And it's a picture of us. Says, no, there's authentic enthusiastic tech journalism at home. And at home, it's Kara Swisher. And so we love the support from Sean. I told him he should put an ad for Ridge Wallet in this image. He didn't. It was very disrespectful to our culture, but we'll give him a pass this time. But we love Sean Frank and everything that he does over at the Ridge Wallet. Let's move on to Aristic Rex. I literally laughed out loud at this post. I thought it was so funny. He says, every Emmett Shear post. Of course, Emmett Shear is the former CTO, CEO of Twitch, very active poster on X.

• 2:21:04John Coogan?

  At one point, he was the CEO of OpenAI for a few days. And it starts out, Emmett Shear, does everyone, does anyone have any good garlic bread recipes? And then it's the show more replies button. And and the last reply is Emmett Shear again. Well, if you subscribe to the dark forest theory, sure. But even then, only if the rules of magic are universal, not on those planets. And Aristic Rex says, what are you people saying to him? And I've seen Emmett go down these rabbit holes and debate. He loves debating AI and and all these crazy kind of teapot rationalist themes. He's very deep in the weeds in this stuff. And it's, it's always a fun, fun time to read through some of the threads that he's gone really deep with people on.

• 2:21:49John Coogan?

  Because to the point about Instagram not really driving connections. X is a great place where you can connect with people and you can have a full on conversation in public. And I always enjoy finding someone who got completely derailed from whatever they were saying originally and just couldn't stop replying. It's one of the most fun things you find.

• 2:22:10Jordi Hays?

  Like, he's so native to teapot, yet.

• 2:22:16Jordi Hays?

  Yet, when he was briefly OpenAI CEO, there was just so much like it's, everybody was like, wow, this feels super random, when in many ways, it was exactly the kind of CEO that sort of rationalist board of OpenAI would have wanted running the company, right? Like sort of this sort of

• 2:22:35John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 2:22:35Jordi Hays?

  tech intellectual type person who is going to guide, you know, the company very theoretically.

• 2:22:42John Coogan?

  Yep. Culturally, it kind of made sense. You know, he could speak to the nonprofit side, the very deep in the weeds of the philosophy, but then he was a CEO who worked for Jeff Bezos, you know, like he actually does understand product and revenue and how to grow a company. So, you know, interesting pick, obviously didn't last very long, but I've met him and he's a great guy. I love him. He likes to have fun on X, which is what we're all about. Let's move on to Matt Grimm. I know you're going to have a comment on this, Jordy. He says, does flying your company logo over New Orleans with a banner saying angel investors constitute a public solicitation? Is this the market top? And it's a picture of a plane, someone bought one of those planes

• 2:23:25John Coogan?

  that drags a massive banner with some company. I can't even see what company it is, but I think it's a hilarious way to get angel investors. And if it works out, man, is it going to be a story for the ages. But what do you think, Jordy? Should more startups be renting planes to help close their seed rounds?

• 2:23:45Jordi Hays?

  I mean, if you, the main thing is if you need to rent a plane to close, you know, a sub $5 million round, you're probably working on the wrong thing, or you're not, you're not, you're not that guy, pal. I think, I think I like the creativity and I think that planes are generally underutilized ad inventory for startups. They're not that expensive and it's a way to, to be sort of big and be, you know, get somebody's attention. I, I always see them around LA, flying along the coast with like beer ads. And I'm like, that could easily be an ad for, you know,

• 2:24:27Jordi Hays?

  We should start running ads, you know, big QR code banner out the back. Hey, we know you're at the beach right now, but how would you like to listen to a niche technology show?

• 2:24:37John Coogan?

  Oh, you mean the number one live streaming show in tech?

• 2:24:40Jordi Hays?

  The number one live stream in tech.

• 2:24:42John Coogan?

  After all, Jordy. Yeah, I mean, also, as a consumer, a little bit of a bear signal. If I see an app advertising with angel investors attached, I'm like, is this app even going to be around in three months? They seem desperate. It's rough. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't install it.

• 2:24:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. The main thing is the aesthetics of running an ad for your company, which it was, I couldn't see what it was, but it didn't feel like it probably should raise money. And then bolting on the, oh, by the way.

• 2:25:10John Coogan?

  Funny that it's bolted on to the back. It's like at the last second, they were like, wait, can we use this to raise money too? Let's just tack this on to the back of the flag. What a mess. Well, instead of buying a, you know, an ad, if you want to attract some angel investors, why don't you get in the watch game? Get something nice on your wrist. When you're out and about, people will stop you. Hey, I like watches. You like watches? Let's do a deal. And so OW Root says normalize small watches. Interesting post. Obviously the best place to get yourself a small watches on bezel. Highly recommend that. I've been looking at some small watches on bezel. There's a lot of good options. And Antonio chimes in here saying Longines grand classiques. I inherited from my grandfather. I always felt it was small, but this morning I'm feeling it.

• 2:25:53John Coogan?

  And so there's some fantastic pictures here, Ben, if you tab forward of iconic photos of men wearing small watches. Of course, there's the Cartier Tank worn by Andy Warhol. And there's some other small watches. I think it takes a little bit of, a little bit of style, a little bit of je ne sais quoi to pull off, but if you can do it.

• 2:26:14Jordi Hays?

  The pure, the pure function of having a conversation starter that fits nicely under, under a dress shirt is, I mean, it's just pure function and class. So.

• 2:26:27John Coogan?

  And we saw this with Tom Brady where he was going bigger and bolder and it's a, you know, it's a, it's an arms race that can only end in nuclear war with, with the giant Flava Flav clock around your chest. And maybe you want to go the other direction, a little bit smaller, a little bit understated, but for the real watch person, they'll know, they'll be able to clock it. Yeah. Cartier Tank, very nice.

• 2:26:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:47John Coogan?

  I like that. Muhammad Ali wore one.

• 2:26:49Jordi Hays?

  There you go.

• 2:26:49John Coogan?

  You know, and, and, and, and I think that there is, there is a little bit of a, of a, a, a, like a feeling in watch culture of the bigger and heavier the watch is, the more valuable it is, but also the more masculine it is. Takes a real man to wear a smaller watch, you know?

• 2:27:08Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 2:27:09John Coogan?

  Anyway, let's move on.

• 2:27:10Jordi Hays?

  Well said.

• 2:27:11John Coogan?

  Let's go to, oh, we should go to Emmett Shear, because we just mentioned him. He says, "If someone is constant, is consistently getting good results, even though they're obviously doing it wrong, it means there's something you're missing about how the world works." I like that. Just a good inspirational quote, you know, to check your priors if you see someone just winning, winning, winning, even though they're doing something way wrong. This can apply to someone who's just hacking on a project, using the wrong programming language, using the wrong tooling, but they're still getting good results. Cracked. And it can apply at the highest levels.

• 2:27:49Jordi Hays?

  I think this applies to, uh, to content that people see as cringe. People see somebody posting cringe content and they think, oh, that's cringe. Why would you ever do that? And if it's getting, you know, real engagement for every person that thinks it's cringe, there might be five people that, that don't and enjoy it. So I think, um, yeah, I think it's a good way to reframe how the world works. I gotta go get the door here.

• 2:28:19John Coogan?

  Okay. Well, we love word grammar on this show. And we have a good post from word grammar. Word grammar says, "If your natural response to O3 is to downsize your team and cut costs, rather than work on a 100x more ambitious project, your NGMI," and I couldn't agree more. "The tools are getting better. It means you can do more. It means you can just pull forward your entire roadmap, build more software, build more products. And that's one of the greatest things about AI. And I think that if you stay small and everyone else is being more aggressive, using more aggressive tools, but writing millions of lines of code, if that's what they need to do, much faster than you, you're just getting killed on features.

• 2:29:04John Coogan?

  So you gotta compete. And so it's this weird equilibrium where I think the, the end state will not be less work, but more, more product, really, which is, which is exciting because we get more good stuff. And I like that. I like this one from Nick Malinovic, one of the friends of the show. He says, you know, the animal spirits are back in fintech when these guys return. Ryan Breslow, founder of Bolt, is doing a keynote and Dom from Fast is, what is he doing? Short home loans. Buy your new home now, repay when your old home sells. And so they're back. Both of the legends of the last cycle. A lot of people counted them out, but we love to see an entrepreneur dust themselves off and get back in the game. What you got, Jordy?

• 2:29:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I want to, I want to know what, you remember there was that board struggle with Bolt? It was probably six months ago at this point where

• 2:30:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, he had all this money lined up and he was trying to force people to double down and allow himself to basically regain, regain control of the business. I don't know how that really netted out, but it seems like he's back if he's going and, and, and rep like very blatantly representing Bolt at the conference. Like maybe he's, you know, figuring it out. It is funny that both of these guys, you know, we joke about leverage on the show, but it is obviously a joke and for entertainment purposes only, but Dom and Breslow clearly love leverage because, you know, Breslow was building, building a product to help, help employees get, what was it? It was

• 2:30:42Jordi Hays?

  to take out loans against unfested or vested, you know, illiquid shares. Dom is now building a product to help you buy. I mean, what, what I, I actually looked through his website before this and it's kind of an interesting thing where there's this dynamic. He puts it on the website very plainly that you can go see it, which is if you're walking around your neighborhood and, or somewhere and you see a house that you like, you want to buy it, like good houses go fast. And so if you're sitting on your house and you need to roll that equity into the new home, it can be almost impossible to get a deal done, right? And so having, having a short term loan

• 2:31:24Jordi Hays?

  that's backed against the equity in your old home that allows you to quickly roll into something Theoretically, if everything goes to plan, would work pretty well. So I think it's an interesting concept and I believe in second chances and I hope both of them figure it out.

• 2:31:40John Coogan?

  Yeah. Let's close on Santiago, good friend of the show. It's the last slide in the deck.

• 2:31:49John Coogan?

  He says Friday energy and posts a video of a weightlifter. I thought this guy was gonna deadlift this. Is that him?

• 2:31:58Jordi Hays?

  That's Santiago. Yeah.

• 2:32:00John Coogan?

  No way. I thought there was a chance, but this is so insane because I thought he was gonna deadlift it because it's like 300 pounds or something like that. And I was like, okay, he's doing it. He's, he's hang cleaning it or power cleaning it from the floor multiple times. It's like one of the most impressive lifts I've ever seen. So congratulations to Santiago. This is brother of the week material, in my opinion. You know, it's gonna be a crazy week. So I don't know if we're gonna give it away yet, but keep posting stuff like this on X. I don't care if it gets 200 likes, 2000 likes, 2 million likes. It's just positivity on the timeline and I'm here for it.

• 2:32:42Jordi Hays?

  An absolute dog. That's a great place to end.

• 2:32:45John Coogan?

  Well, thanks for watching everyone. Please go give us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Leave us a review and put an ad for your company, a company you work for, a company you just like. Throw it in the comments. We'll read it live on the show. And yeah, follow us on X. Stay tuned for more. We got plenty more coming this week. Salute.

• 2:33:06Jordi Hays?

  We'll see you tomorrow, brothers.

• 2:33:07John Coogan?

  See you tomorrow. Bye.