Peptide Debate Recap, John Ternus Rumors Swirl, OpenAI Nonprofit to Spend $1B | Diet TBPN

Diet TBPN delivers the best of today’s TBPN episode in 30 minutes. TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with each episode posted to podcast platforms right after. Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” the show has recently featured Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella. TBPN is made possible by: Ramp - https://Ramp.com https://ramp.com/ AppLovin - https://axon.ai https://axon.ai/ Cisco - https://www.cisco.com https://www.cisco.com/ Cognition - https://cognition.ai https://cognition.ai/ Console - https://console.com https://console.com/ CrowdStrike - https://crowdstrike.com https://crowdstrike.com/ ElevenLabs - https://elevenlabs.io https://elevenlabs.io/ Figma - https://figma.com https://figma.com/ Fin - https://fin.ai https://fin.ai/ Gemini - https://gemini.google.com https://gemini.google.com/ Graphite - https://graphite.com https://graphite.com/ Gusto - https://gusto.com/tbpn Kalshi - https://kalshi.com https://kalshi.com/ Labelbox - https://labelbox.com https://labelbox.com/ Lambda - https://lambda.ai https://lambda.ai/ Linear - https://linear.app https://linear.app/ MongoDB - https://mongodb.com https://mongodb.com/ NYSE - https://nyse.com https://nyse.com/ Okta - https://www.okta.com https://www.okta.com/ Phantom - https://phantom.com/cash Plaid - https://plaid.com https://plaid.com/ Public - https://public.com https://public.com/ Railway - https://railway.com https://railway.com/ Restream - https://restream.io https://restream.io/ Sentry - https://sentry.io https://sentry.io/ Shopify - https://shopify.com/tbpn Turbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.com https://turbopuffer.com/ Vanta - https://vanta.com https://vanta.com/ Vibe - https://vibe.co https://vibe.co/ Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02John Coogan?

  Do you know how I got here today? I drove through the Hollywood Hills, drove through the San Fernando Valley, because we're covering Hill and Valley today. But we're doing it from the TBPN Ultra. We have a whole bunch of news.

• 0:15John Coogan?

  Anyway, what do you think about this, Jordy? We have to recap some things. There's been a whole bunch of news. We had the great peptide debate of 2026. Brandon Gurrell on our team wrote about this in the newsletter today, tbpn.com. You can go subscribe. Who do you think won? I was talking to a lot of people, very interesting. You had scheduled this. I wasn't even really aware that there was a peptide debate going on. We talked to some other folks on the show about peptides and how there was a debate ready. And I was aware of the meme, like the Chinese peptides in Silicon Valley, all of that stuff. But I wasn't aware of like that the debate was boiling to a particular point and that there were a lot of people that were discussing it. So it was great timing. So thank you for organizing that. And thank you to our guests, Max and Martin, who took the time to come and talk to us.

• 0:58John Coogan?

  And I thought did a really good job of being simultaneously entertaining and also very cordial. Like they weren't actually going at each other's throats. They were scoring points, but I don't think that either of them crossed any lines. There was some, there was some discussion over like, should we have done more fact checking? I genuinely, I generally think that the chat is good for fact checking.

• 1:19Jordi Hays?

  Or the experts.

• 1:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's kind of like your view, but I don't know.

• 1:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, there was a bunch of, there was a bunch of people that made very fair points. Yeah. Pointing out, you know, a study here.

• 1:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30Jordi Hays?

  Patent here.

• 1:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31Jordi Hays?

  And it would have been great if we got to a conclusion yesterday and it was like, yeah, this is all bad and it should all be banned. Or, you know, they're all good or figured it out.

• 1:39John Coogan?

  But that's where we started.

• 1:41Jordi Hays?

  That's where we started.

• 1:42John Coogan?

  Like with like, yeah, everyone there agrees that GLP-1s that are owned by pharmaceutical companies are probably not beneficial, blah, blah, blah. And then the really far out stuff that hasn't been studied, that's made in, you know, a basement is probably risky. And we actually had a good, a friend of the show, Sum It Up, Creatine Cycle, Atlas, of course, said, "The peptide debate is as follows. Against: I would be worried about unknown unknowns. Pro: While there isn't much human data, the anecdotal evidence is pretty strong. Against: Anecdotes are not enough for me. Pro: Fair. It is for me." Against. Okay, fair. And I think that's a good, I think that's a good point. And, and truthfully, you know, people can make their own decisions here.

• 2:26John Coogan?

  I do think interjecting with a ton of fact checking during the debate would, would be disruptive. I'm not a fan of that. I sort of just like having one person, like the, the guest, the debater, fact check the other person, because if they know the fact and the other person who they're debating against drops something that's not factual, that's their opportunity to come in and say, no, that's not accurate.

• 2:49Jordi Hays?

  Throw that canister, whatever Robert Martin had. Throw it.

• 2:53John Coogan?

  Throw the flashbang, throw the smoke grenade. But, but I do, so I like, I like leaving some of the fact checking up to them and, and then just trying to re-center the debate as a moderator. But I don't know. Should we do more of these? Let us know. It seemed like a lot of people had a lot of fun with it and were entertained. It's hard to come up with, you know, if we were going to try and do this weekly, it'd be very hard to come up with like 52 really hot topics that everyone cares about. And there are two opposing experts who are willing to hash it out and be entertaining on a live show. Probably not going to happen all that much, but when the time is right, I think there's an opportunity for us to do another debate. Someone was saying we should

• 3:33John Coogan?

  do an accelerationist versus decelerationist debate. I think Beth Jay-Z was proposing that. I think that would be sort of interesting. I, I, I think I could maybe sit in the middle of that and, and have, and have some interesting discussions there.

• 3:47Jordi Hays?

  Kind of like 60 miles per hour, stay under the speed limit.

• 3:50John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 3:51Jordi Hays?

  Kind of acceleration.

• 3:51John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. Well, on that, on that vector, I am an extreme accelerationist. Leading up to the debate yesterday, we had several guests on the show discuss peptides. In February, Andrew Huberman came on and predicted that Reta, essentially a more aggressive Ozempic, would become a trillion dollar drug. That same day, we had longevity entrepreneur Brian Johnson on the show. He encouraged people thinking about taking peptides to be cautious because we don't know what the negative effects of these drugs are. And last week, Maximus CEO Cameron Maximus, which I don't think is his real name. Is his last name Maximus? No, it's not. It's, it's.

• 4:26John Coogan?

  But I'd like to think of him as Dr. Cameron Maximus.

• 4:29Jordi Hays?

  That is his name on X.

• 4:30John Coogan?

  Oh, okay, okay, that makes sense. He argued that there's no real reason to be taking Reta, not FDA-approved, only available on the gray market, when they could be taking, when people who are, you know, in the market or, or, you know, their doctor recommends something, they could be taking Terzepatide, which is essentially, has the same benefits, can be bought legally, and it's FDA-approved. So yesterday, Scrawley argued, Martin Scrawley argued, that the current peptide craze is more psychology-driven than science-driven, and is essentially a passing fad among Silicon Valley elites who aren't really expert trusters. In his view, there is no rational reason to experiment with compounds like Reta when proven regulated drugs like Ozempic already exist.

• 5:13John Coogan?

  He thinks gray markets should be shut down entirely, and there was a big debate over how feasible is it to actually try and shut down the gray markets. Gray markets have existed in a whole bunch of other, other categories. I'm very familiar with the, the gray market for illegal flavored vaporizers, because they have been the bane of the legitimate industry, the nicotine industries. It's been the bane of their existence. Martin argued that the FDA's rigorous approval process exists for a reason. Now, we had Max arguing the peptide bull case. He argued that he doesn't believe all peptides are safe and effective, but that a subset of them likely have real therapeutic value.

• 5:55John Coogan?

  He said that since people are already using peptides, a regulated white market would reduce harm compared to the current gray market. Lots to debate there. We'll let you make your own decisions. You can go listen to the full debate, and you can see where you weigh in. Not having Tyler Cosgrove in the TVP and Ultra Dome is, it's a death knell for our clapping during the ad read strategy. We need to get some soundboard going. We need to show these supporters, please sponsor some love, because we're... We're fighting, we're fighting two men down right now, maybe three men down. We're, we're, we're on our last leg over here in the TBN Ultra. Apple is in a completely different situation. They have their heir apparent, John Ternus, the nice guy, potentially taking the reins. Maybe this year, maybe next year.

• 6:40John Coogan?

  It could happen any day now. Tim Cook doesn't want to talk about retirement, but John Ternus is emerging as his most likely successor. This is from friend of the show, Mark Gurman in Bloomberg. Go subscribe. This is an interesting profile of John Ternus from March 22nd, 2026, just two days ago. This was published and it tells an interesting story of John Ternus. And I think Gurman does a great job of going deeper than some of the other reporting that had like one quote from an employee that left Apple a decade ago and was sort of vague. And that person doesn't have like any sort of profile and it was very hard to read into who is John Ternus as a person. I think we're getting a clearer picture now. Let's read through some of this and then I want you to cosplay as John Ternus and let me know,

• 7:25John Coogan?

  would you do things differently? Do you agree with his management style? Because this might be the management style of all of Apple soon. The company's chief operating officer recently retired. The CFO and general counsel took smaller roles as a way to prepare for their own retirements. And in a single week in December, its heads of artificial intelligence, user interfaces and environmental initiatives all announced their departures. While part of the exodus was related to Apple, Apple's Inc. well documented struggles in AI. It also reflected a logical transition at a company that turns 50 on April 1st. Apple's stock made everyone at the top of its org chart fabulously wealthy and many are entering the stage of life that often inspires people to prioritize family, spending some

• 8:08John Coogan?

  time, finally spending some time with their families instead of the next generation of iPhones. In his response to the employee's question, Tim Cook, the company's 65 year old CEO, struck an atypically reflective tone. When people get to a certain age, some, he said, are going to retire. Letting the word some hang out there in a way that suggested he wasn't talking about himself, drawing laughter from the audience. It's like, some people, they, they can't hang, but look at Warren Buffett, 65 to 95, most productive era of his career.

• 8:38Jordi Hays?

  Tim Cook generational run starts now.

• 8:39John Coogan?

  I like the idea of Cook at, for the next 30 years. I'm, I'm still bullish, Tim Cook. I mean, I love John Ternus, but I think the 30 year run from Tim Cook going 65 to 95 would be particularly fun to watch.

• 8:52Jordi Hays?

  Tim Cook was gonna retire, then he started experimenting with some Chinese peppers.

• 8:57John Coogan?

  Oh, you think that's what's going on? He's always looked good.

• 9:00Jordi Hays?

  Now he's like, I actually got another few decades in me.

• 9:03John Coogan?

  I hope so. He's like, actually, it's BBC 157, having remarkable effects on me. So he said, "The thing we have to do is to make sure that Apple moves on, reaches the next level, and the next level, and the next level." And he said he spends a lot of time thinking about who's in the room in five, 10, 15 years. I'm obsessed with this. This is Tim Cook at his best. This guy can't leave. He can't leave. He's firing me up here. I'm obsessed with this.

• 9:31Jordi Hays?

  Somebody's been listening to Sun Ra.

• 9:32John Coogan?

  Yes, it's amazing. So Cook, who's run Apple since taking over from co-founder Steve Jobs in 2011, probably doesn't expect to be in the room himself for another 15 years, but I do. I'm betting on him. Well, he's given no indication of an imminent transition. He's made it clear he wants his heir to come from within the company so he can serve as a mentor. The central candidate is John Ternus, Senior Vice President for Hardware Engineering, who oversees development of the devices that generate roughly 80% of Apple's revenue. At 50, Ternus is also younger than many of the company's other senior leaders, meaning he could be in the top job longer. Ternus has spent about half of his life at Apple. Half of his life. Generational run. He cut his teeth developing computer monitors,

• 10:15John Coogan?

  oversaw product design for the original iPad, and eventually took over development of the Mac, getting the top hardware engineering role in 2021. He's overseen an expansion in Apple's product lineup, improving quality and focusing on functional improvements around battery life, performance, and connectivity. Earlier this month, when Apple held an event in New York to announce the MacBook Neo, a $599 laptop, it was Ternus, not Cook, who did the big reveal.

• 10:40Jordi Hays?

  Little trial run.

• 10:41John Coogan?

  The next day, Ternus also appeared on Good Morning America to talk up the device, the type of media appearance Cook has generally done himself. Such public signs of confidence in Ternus have been accompanied by steady expansion of his portfolio. Last year, he took control of a secretive unit developing robots, including a tabletop device with a screen that swirls to focus on a speaker moving around the room. The smart lamp. Is this what it is? No, it's not a smart lamp.

• 11:06Jordi Hays?

  No, it's the iPad that on a swivel arm.

• 11:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, the iPad that follows you around so that you can ask your questions and FaceTime with your friends.

• 11:13Jordi Hays?

  And I think there's a rumor that it can do kickflips, but.

• 11:17John Coogan?

  I'd be super into that. If it has a motor, you've seen those motor, those robots that are on the bikes and it's just a big battery pack with like a robotic arm that's attached to it. Have you seen this? Oh, this is amazing.

• 11:27Jordi Hays?

  Apple comes out with a, with a, with a smart iPad device that's, that's just called a bicycle for the iPad. It's just a little bicycle.

• 11:37John Coogan?

  No, no, no. If you, if you have a weight up here and you have, and you have a robotic arm that can hinge down, if you pull that up really quickly, you can actually jump up. And so there's all these crazy videos of these robot bikes like jumping up onto tables and stuff. It's very fun. Ternus has taken a bigger role in Apple's product marketing, sometimes personally editing copy for the website and even product event materials. And he has become central to the company's work to make its devices more environmentally sustainable. Ternus has also assumed oversight of the hardware and software design teams, making him a key liaison between Apple's vaunted design organization and senior management. Meaning he's already one of the most influential people in the company's history.

• 12:17John Coogan?

  He has made a mark on Apple's hardware portfolio, reversing a trend of declining product quality as the company prioritized thinness and sleekness over performance. He is a very meticulous engineer and a judicious executive, says Tony Blevins, the company's chief procurement officer until 2022, who described Ternus as an outstanding and obvious choice to succeed Cook. He's a car, he's a car racing enthusiast. He's a cycling enthusiast. I assume cycling means performance enhancing drugs?

• 12:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, tren.

• 12:48John Coogan?

  Tren? Testosterone? No. He is a bicyclist and a car racing enthusiast. Ternus is known to take his colleagues to upstate Washington for off-road rally car racing. Let's go. Excellent choice, Tim Cook. I see why you picked him.

• 13:03Jordi Hays?

  So bullish.

• 13:03John Coogan?

  His love of motorsports notwithstanding, Ternus, like Cook, is risk averse and reluctant to, as one person close to him puts it, upset the apple cart. Good pun. As one longtime executive says, if you think Tim Cook is doing a good job, then you'll think John Ternus is doing a good job, too.

• 13:21Jordi Hays?

  That also feels like an underhanded.

• 13:22John Coogan?

  It's maybe a dig. I have been a staunch defender of Tim Cook. Did well on the supply chain, did well on the tariffs, did well negotiating, all sorts of tough things, wound up with a great partnership with Gemini. Like, wound up in, like, always looks bad as you're like, investigating one feature on a one-month timeline. But when you zoom out over a decade, incredible amount of value created, incredible performance, and very few weaknesses in the business, from my perspective. But you can take the other side of that, because I know you're frustrated by every app that they release lately. Who knows?

• 13:57Jordi Hays?

  Not just the apps.

• 13:59John Coogan?

  Not just the apps.

• 13:59Jordi Hays?

  The operating system itself.

• 14:01John Coogan?

  Also, I mean, the new material is rough. Like, I drop this phone a lot, and it's very scratched. Despite his reputation for personable management, so he's known as a very nice manager, nice guy, he's the nice guy at Apple. Ternus has, at times, broken with that style in ways that raised eyebrows internally. Late in the lead-up to the release of the Vision Pro headset, my favorite Apple device ever, unironically. For instance, engineers uncovered a flaw that threatened one of the device's marquee features. It's the ability to stream ultra-

• 14:35Jordi Hays?

  Well, you're not the average user, John. You use your device. The average user doesn't use them.

• 14:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. I'm like five standard deviations above on the usage. So, the ability to stream ultra-low latency audio from the headset to AirPods. This apparently was a capability central to Apple's pitch of a seamless experience for immersive video and gaming.

• 14:55Jordi Hays?

  So you just bought this, this-

• 14:57John Coogan?

  Thirty-five-hundred-dollar device.

• 14:58Jordi Hays?

  Thirty-five-hundred-dollar face computer.

• 15:01John Coogan?

  And thirty-five-hundred dollars was the headline price?

• 15:03Jordi Hays?

  And they're telling you-

• 15:04John Coogan?

  When I bought one, it was close to five grand.

• 15:05Jordi Hays?

  I just think it's so funny that they shipped this, you know, three-to-five-thousand-dollar, you know, computer for your head that's super heavy, and they're like, "And you're gonna need to grab some AirPods."

• 15:16John Coogan?

  Yeah. It was clearly important to Apple. Apple's always prided itself on device integration, hardware integration, and they are great at that. Like, you put in the AirPods and you switch over to a YouTube video on your MacBook, and it just plays right there. You switch over to your phone, you take a call, it switches right back. Like, the connectivity with their Bluetooth strategy and their, you know, their wireless strategy has always been fantastic, but apparently it wasn't going well. With the development of the Vision Pro headset. So the ability to stream ultra-low latency audio from the headset to AirPods. This was a capability central to Apple's pitch of a seamless experience for immersive video and gaming. The problem stemmed from a missing wireless frequency in the then-newest AirPods Pro.

• 16:01John Coogan?

  The only practical fix was to ship a revised version of the earbuds, which the company did at the end of 2023. It was sort of a weird move, probably cost them some extra money to do. It was a mistake that was, you know, caused by a particular hardware engineer on this team. When they launched the Apple Vision Pro in February of 2024, that meant that anyone who wanted this feature, they just paid $3,500, they had to spend another $250 on new AirPods that added the ultra-low latency support and not much else. And so this was a debacle, and the debacle reverberated through multiple teams, including hardware, software, testing, and the Vision Pro group. People involved said Ternus alienated some people on staff by focusing initially on

• 16:45John Coogan?

  finding out whom to blame.

• 16:47Jordi Hays?

  Who did it?

• 16:47John Coogan?

  In the aftermath, a senior AirPods executive was reassigned. The, and I'm laughing because I, so I asked Jordy this morning, I said, okay, I gave him like the overall, the broad strokes of what happened. And what was your first recommendation for?

• 17:07Jordi Hays?

  Shut down both product lines.

• 17:08John Coogan?

  Shut down, shut down both.

• 17:11Jordi Hays?

  Shut down both product lines.

• 17:13John Coogan?

  Just shut down both entirely.

• 17:14Jordi Hays?

  And then I would have focused on coming out with a pair of wired headsets.

• 17:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Jordi Hays?

  Made of wood, using horse hair.

• 17:22John Coogan?

  Horse hair.

• 17:23Jordi Hays?

  For the actual connectivity.

• 17:25John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:25Jordi Hays?

  And then.

• 17:26John Coogan?

  No wires at all.

• 17:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and then sort of like with a leather.

• 17:29John Coogan?

  Certainly no plastics, no macroplastics or microplastics.

• 17:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, probably creating some like, some type of like tallow to make, to make them more comfortable.

• 17:37John Coogan?

  You don't want the wood to get splinters in your ears.

• 17:40Jordi Hays?

  Like a beef.

• 17:40John Coogan?

  So you, so you lubricate your ear canal with beef tallow.

• 17:43Jordi Hays?

  Just go back to basics.

• 17:45John Coogan?

  Just messing with.

• 17:46Jordi Hays?

  Introducing AirPod.

• 17:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:48Jordi Hays?

  Caveman.

• 17:49John Coogan?

  Caveman, yeah, yeah, that's what you want.

• 17:51Jordi Hays?

  That's where I would have started. This issue comes down to, from my understanding.

• 17:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:55Jordi Hays?

  This senior executive who is responsible, it was the AirPod, right?

• 18:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Jordi Hays?

  He did not process that the Apple Vision Pro was coming out and they were selling against this feature.

• 18:06John Coogan?

  A missed requirement.

• 18:07Jordi Hays?

  And Apple, yeah, and, and Apple, the thing that I think they still do really well.

• 18:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Jordi Hays?

  To this day, even though, you know, almost all their other software on the iPhone is is a total disaster.

• 18:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:19Jordi Hays?

  Is connectivity between the devices.

• 18:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:21Jordi Hays?

  And syncing them and things like that.

• 18:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:22Jordi Hays?

  So they still do that well.

• 18:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:23Jordi Hays?

  And so to come out with this and in just a blatant sort of unforced error, didn't communicate properly with the other teams.

• 18:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:32Jordi Hays?

  For the AirPods, which are just designed to sync perfectly with all the other.

• 18:37John Coogan?

  It would be like, it would be like if one of the cameras was blurry or something like that. It's like, well, the iPhone, like, yeah, it's not, it's not, you know, dominating AI crazy features yet, but like, everyone counts on the iPhone for having a good set of cameras. Like, they're always good. And so if you mess up something that is, is the basis of the strategy, that is risky. You know, is, is he, is he, is he a nice guy or is he too hard? Ternus looks at mistakes as systemic problems that could be solved with better leadership instead of by putting the onus on the engineer, someone who said, who worked for him, and this person adds, Ternus is a nice guy. It's a throwback to the Steve Jobs era. Like, Steve Jobs would have said, hey, I demanded this, like, you made a mistake, like,

• 19:20John Coogan?

  heads must roll, and that was a bit of the company culture, at least in the lore. And who knows how true that is, but this doesn't seem like it goes too far into like ruthless business behavior. But that's sort of where the discussion is around Ternus. It's like, is he pure a nice guy? Does he have a harder edge? I don't know.

• 19:37Jordi Hays?

  I think Ternus didn't go hard enough.

• 19:39John Coogan?

  Didn't go hard enough.

• 19:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 19:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, should have got after him personally. We were featured in the world's 50 most innovative companies, the definitive guide to the future of business. We're up there with Tubi, Google, Walmart, BYD, these are some big companies. Ramp got a nod and TBP got a nod right next to Ramp. And they sent us a very nice letter and we are sitting here with a nice little mural of a bunch of our guests. Who'd we get? We got Brian Armstrong, Evan Spiegel.

• 20:06Jordi Hays?

  Okay, and tell me, tell me who we got beat out. We were the number two media company.

• 20:10John Coogan?

  We were the number two most innovative media company. We got beat out by a CDN. Matthew Prince over at Cloudflare smoked us.

• 20:18Jordi Hays?

  Smoked us.

• 20:18John Coogan?

  Smoked us. We didn't stand a chance. Just look at the scale of Cloudflare. They distribute so much media. That's what it's a content delivery network. They deliver content. We try and deliver content. We deliver three hours a day. They deliver probably billions of hours a second. I can't even imagine the scale of that business. It's everywhere. But Matthew Prince is a very innovative leader and I completely agree with the ranking that he should be.

• 20:40Jordi Hays?

  But we're coming for you next year.

• 20:41John Coogan?

  We're coming next year, Matthew. It's on. Producers at CNBC wake up in the morning to look at the public markets in order to plan the day's lineup. John Coogan and Jordy Hayes, co-hosts of TBPN, a daily talk show devoted to the business of technology, wake up and look at what's trending on X. That's true. And then they gab. That's us. Quote, says Hayes, "We cover something like 50 to 100 topics rapid fire, five days a week in bespoke suits, the duo riff on the news for three interrupted hours accompanied by a revolving cast of venture investors, startup founders, and the occasional single name elite like Zuck. On good days, the live stream draws more than 130,000 simultaneous viewers, millions more. Watch the highlighted clips and listen to the podcast. We basically leverage the algorithm,"

• 21:22John Coogan?

  how Hayes says of TBPN's programming strategy. Love them or hate them, they do a really good job of sorting what people are interested in. Anyway, you can go check it out.

• 21:30Jordi Hays?

  As a boy, I subscribed to the print edition of Fast Company and always looked forward to getting it in the physical mailbox at home.

• 21:39John Coogan?

  Unwell, Alex Cooper's network is 23. So how, she must be media. She must be higher than us.

• 21:45Jordi Hays?

  What's the category, though?

• 21:47John Coogan?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 21:48Jordi Hays?

  Because if Cloudflare is a media company, then Unwell might be.

• 21:52John Coogan?

  It might be a CDN. Who knows? Let's see. Unwell was ranked, oh, Unwell is in the advertising and marketing category, but not media and news. Cloudflare is media and news and we are second behind Cloudflare. That is interesting. I would say Unwell beat us fair and square.

• 22:10Jordi Hays?

  All I have to say is in the words of the Canadian Olympic team, John, silver shines just as bright.

• 22:16John Coogan?

  We've been on a bit of a silver tear lately. We're the second highest ranked technology show on Spotify. Thank you to everyone who's been subscribing and leaving us five star reviews over there.

• 22:27Jordi Hays?

  And yeah, thank you to Team Canada for.

• 22:29John Coogan?

  Pioneering.

• 22:30Jordi Hays?

  Making it a little bit more.

• 22:31John Coogan?

  Pioneering cope as a strategy, as a marketing strategy.

• 22:35Jordi Hays?

  OpenAI's new nonprofit foundation announces plans to spend $1 billion this year and has appointed OpenAI co-founder Woj and Jacob of Coefficient Giving to leadership positions, still searching for an executive director. Sam says AI will help discover new science such as cures for diseases, which is perhaps the most important way to increase quality of life long term. AI will also present new threats to society that we have to address. No company can sufficiently mitigate these on their own. We will need a society-wide response to things like novel bio threats, a massive and fast change to the economy, extremely capable models, causing complex emergent effects across society, and more. So it's great that this has gotten set up. I know. Can imagine just how much has gone into this.

• 23:20John Coogan?

  I would love to see them. I mean, they have a lot of money here. They're going to be donating a lot of money. I think it's going to be the best-funded nonprofit in the history of humanity. That's very exciting. I would love just a little carve-out for developing like consumer apps or consumer technology. I mean, they've had so much success spinning things out. It's funded the nonprofit so effectively.

• 23:43Jordi Hays?

  Why not keep it going?

• 23:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, why change horses in the middle of the street? If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?

• 23:49Jordi Hays?

  In other news, Andrew Bosworth is taking over supervision of the company's efforts to become AI-native.

• 23:55John Coogan?

  That's exciting.

• 23:56Jordi Hays?

  He's going to be overseeing Meta's AI for Work initiative that was previously led by another exec.

• 24:01John Coogan?

  He's been with.

• 24:03Jordi Hays?

  Trusted general.

• 24:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, he's been there for so long.

• 24:05Jordi Hays?

  Yes, this is AI for Work is their internal initiatives. These are going to be, I think, like, internal products that help the company operate more efficiently. This, you know, signals a shift, a deprioritization of the metaverse, which has been, obviously, you know, in the works in different ways for quite a while. But Dreamer.

• 24:29John Coogan?

  What's going on?

• 24:29Jordi Hays?

  Is joining Meta Superintelligence Labs.

• 24:32John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 24:32Jordi Hays?

  David Singleton shared excited to announce that his founder, his co-founders and the entire team over at Dreamer are joining Meta. The last few months have been extraordinary. We built Dreamer, put the beta in the world just a month ago, and saw magic come to life for real people. Since then. Thousands of people have used Dreamer to build personal intelligence software with our sidekick in the world's newest and most popular programming language, English. They're building and sharing agents to manage email, calendar, to-dos, create learning tools for their kids, learn new languages, plan trips with friends, become better cooks, help them with work, achieve their health goals, or simply to creatively express themselves. All sorts of surprising and unique personal needs. These are agents as unique as the people building them because they're built exactly. Each person wants them to meet. We've captured some of our favorites.

• 25:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, people are building timers, receipt scanners, citation assistant. This is great if you're using ChatGPT to do your homework, you can build a little citation assistant. People are building personal financial apps. Yeah, I'm curious, again, with any of these sort of Meta, MSL acquisitions, you know, you have to wonder, is this, can you read into their product direction at all with the acquisition? Are they, is Meta going to be making, is Meta AI going to have the ability to make your own agents? That is still to be seen.

• 25:47John Coogan?

  Most people will think like Aquahire rolled into Manus, rolled into other products. At the same time, there is an interesting like diffusion in consumer question that's going on that I think might be a little bit underrated, just the question of what will adoption and retention be like when you don't have to buy a MacBook or a Mac Mini? When you don't have to, you know, get any API keys at all versus it's an app on your phone versus it's in ChatGPT or it's in, it's in Instagram, bundling those things together. Actually, you know, we never really got firm data on how much Llama's being used.

• 26:24Jordi Hays?

  I really want to build an agent that can predict which videos, funny videos that I would send to you.

• 26:30John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 26:31Jordi Hays?

  Just have it do it automatically. Cause I think we're, our feeds are pretty synced up right now.

• 26:36John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 26:37Jordi Hays?

  Sometimes John will send me a video.

• 26:38John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 26:39Jordi Hays?

  And then 10 minutes later, I'll send him the same video, but I didn't see if he sent it. Then you look.

• 26:44John Coogan?

  Let's, uh, let's go over to the Chinese billionaire who says America's EV market is doomed without him. Not a problem because we're building V8s and V12s over here, baby. We're going back. We're going back. No, this is serious.

• 26:58Jordi Hays?

  Bad timing for, for all of this. Bad timing for, for our, our desires to get the Tesla Roadster to have a naturally aspirated V12.

• 27:07John Coogan?

  Well, maybe good timing.

• 27:08Jordi Hays?

  Given energy prices.

• 27:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's rough. Anyway, Robin Zhang of CATL, C-A-T-L, can't build a factory in America, but Tesla, Ford, and GM rely on its technology. Inside a headquarters that's shaped like a giant battery cell, you gotta give it to them. That's design. That's what we need to be seeing from our tech leaders. Apple did it well with the UFO campus. I want to see more headquarters that are shaped like the product that you sell. The billionaire who runs the world's largest battery company is confident that Americans will come calling eventually.

• 27:41Jordi Hays?

  I got a great post from Gary Tan, we can cap the show off with. He says, "I guess the amazing thing that my haters don't understand is you have no idea how much I eat your hate for breakfast. I am uniquely a person who is driven by all the energy you give me in particular."

• 27:58John Coogan?

  Love it, love it. Prime Agent says, "I like funny G-Stack Barry, Gary better than Eminem, Gary."

• 28:06Jordi Hays?

  And we'll end the show with a note from Naval. He says, "A lot of software is about to get a lot better right before it becomes unnecessary."

• 28:15John Coogan?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 28:17Jordi Hays?

  What does he mean by this?

• 28:18John Coogan?

  Who knows? Who knows?

• 28:20Jordi Hays?

  But it's provocative.

• 28:21John Coogan?

  Sign up for our newsletter at tvpin.com and we will see you tomorrow at 11 a.m. sharp. Throw some flashbangs.

• 28:28Jordi Hays?

  We love you.

• 28:28John Coogan?

  Get ready.

• 28:29Jordi Hays?

  See you tomorrow.

• 28:29John Coogan?

  Goodbye.