The Great Peptide Debate, SpaceX's Lunar Mass Driver, AI Coming for Zuck's Job | Martin Shkreli & Max Marchione, Mitchell Green, Shane Hegde, Dr. Adam Oskowitz, Robin Vince, David Senra

Sign up for TBPN’s daily newsletter at TBPN.com (01:22) - SpaceX's Lunar Mass Driver (41:12) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (54:37) - AI Coming for Zuck's Job (58:17) - The Great Peptide Debate w/ Martin Shkreli & Max Marchione. Martin Shkreli, often referred to as the "Pharma Bro," is an American investor and former pharmaceutical executive known for his controversial decision to drastically increase the price of the life-saving drug Daraprim. In the conversation, Shkreli expresses skepticism about the growing popularity of peptides, attributing it to psychological factors like identity control and distrust of institutions. He emphasizes the importance of adhering to established pharmaceutical practices and regulatory frameworks to ensure drug safety and efficacy. Max Marchione is the co-founder of Superpower, a health optimization platform focused on proactive, data-driven care and longevity. He works at the intersection of consumer health, diagnostics, and software, building tools that give users deeper visibility into their biology and long-term health. (01:31:35) - Mitchell Green, founder and managing partner of Lead Edge Capital, discusses the firm's recent closure of its $3.5 billion Fund 7, highlighting the strong interest from both existing and new limited partners. He emphasizes Lead Edge's unique approach, leveraging a diverse LP base of world-class executives and entrepreneurs to support portfolio companies through customer introductions, recruiting, and advisory roles. Green also addresses the resilience of the software industry, countering notions of a "SaaS apocalypse" by underscoring the enduring value and stickiness of enterprise software solutions. (01:43:28) - Shane Hegde, co-founder and CEO of Air, a creative operations platform, discusses the company's recent initiatives, including a new ad campaign in The New York Times and their most significant product release to date. He emphasizes that while AI is a powerful tool, it cannot replace the deeply subjective and perfection-driven nature of creative work. Hegde introduces five new features launching tomorrow: access to 50 AI models within Air, a canvas editor for asset manipulation, AI agents for automated edits, a context layer to maintain brand consistency, and a shift to usage-based pricing. (01:52:53) - Dr. Adam Oskowitz, co-founder and Chief Medical Officer of Doctronic, discusses their AI-native care platform that offers free, 24/7 health consultations, connecting users to licensed doctors across all 50 states for $39 per visit. He highlights the platform's efficiency, enabling doctors to see more patients per hour compared to traditional telehealth services, and mentions a pilot program in Utah where their AI system can renew prescriptions without direct physician involvement. Additionally, Dr. Oskowitz notes that the platform's ease of use encourages users to seek care they might otherwise forgo, addressing the longstanding supply-demand mismatch in medicine. (02:00:16) - Robin Vince, CEO of BNY Mellon, discusses the bank's strategic focus on integrating artificial intelligence (AI) to enhance operational efficiency, enrich client services, and expand its service offerings. He highlights the development of Eliza, BNY Mellon's enterprise AI platform, which supports over 125 AI-enabled solutions and empowers employees to build custom AI agents, fostering a culture of innovation. Vince also emphasizes the importance of responsible AI adoption, underscored by BNY Mellon's collaboration with Carnegie Mellon University to advance AI research and education. (02:17:26) - David Senra is the host of the Founders podcast, where he studies and distills the lives of history’s greatest entrepreneurs. Through deep dives into biographies of figures like Steve Jobs, Estée Lauder, and Henry Ford, he focuses on the patterns, habits, and principles behind building enduring companies. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02John Coogan?

  Today is Monday, March 23rd, 2026. We are live from the TBP at UltraDome, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. Let me tell you about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both. Use corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more, all in one place.

• 0:20Jordi Hays?

  Very barnyard themed this morning.

• 0:22John Coogan?

  Very barnyard themed. Uh, let me pull up the linear lineup. Linear, of course, is the system for modern software development. Seventy percent of enterprise workspaces are using agents if they're on.

• 0:32Jordi Hays?

  Very fun day today. We got Martin Shkreli.

• 0:35John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 0:36Jordi Hays?

  Coming on with Max over at Superpower to debate peptides. Two very different stances on these compounds. And we will see how it goes. Bring the popcorn.

• 0:49John Coogan?

  Is there a peptide that helps with debating?

• 0:53Jordi Hays?

  I'm sure there is.

• 0:54John Coogan?

  Is there like a DBT1, DBT157 that you can take and then you become an incredibly big debater?

• 1:01Jordi Hays?

  Max can make one before.

• 1:03John Coogan?

  We'll see. Then we have Mitchell Green, Lead Edge Capital, coming on 1230. Shane from Air, we're going into a, a lightning round. And then David Senter is coming on at 115, hanging out in person.

• 1:15Jordi Hays?

  Don't forget.

• 1:16John Coogan?

  We're gonna ask him what the meaning of life is.

• 1:17Jordi Hays?

  Robin from BNY.

• 1:18John Coogan?

  Of course.

• 1:19Jordi Hays?

  And Matt from Doctronic.

• 1:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20Jordi Hays?

  A very fun day.

• 1:21John Coogan?

  Anyway, uh, over the weekend, you, you watched this live, right? Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla, the CEO of SpaceX, uh, got some folks together, gave a big keynote presentation about his vision for the future.

• 1:36Jordi Hays?

  Basically something that looked like an UltraDome.

• 1:38John Coogan?

  It did look like an UltraDome. And so you, you watched this, right?

• 1:41Jordi Hays?

  I did watch it.

• 1:42John Coogan?

  I watched, I watched a little bit of it and, um, overall.

• 1:45Jordi Hays?

  And if you were taking a shot every time Elon said epic, you were.

• 1:51John Coogan?

  Hammered by the.

• 1:51Jordi Hays?

  Not in any, in any state to drive after about three minutes.

• 1:55John Coogan?

  Yeah. He's got so much going on at this point. I mean, he's doing sports cars, cyber trucks. You know, Model 3, Model Y, just consumer cars.

• 2:06Jordi Hays?

  YXL.

• 2:07John Coogan?

  Space Internet, space data centers, space launch capacity, point to point. He's going to take us from one on a rocket from New York to Tokyo in an hour, 30 minutes. Neuralink, brain chips, tunnels. These Elon projects have just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger. Of course, he owns X and Twitter, XAI, training foundation models, trying to make a consumer app. Where you chat with it as well as, you know, solve math and physics. So the big.

• 2:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and I.

• 2:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39Jordi Hays?

  This was super rough.

• 2:40John Coogan?

  It was, I listened to it and it was a rough delivery. Like, he seemed like, he seemed a little like, just like, whoa, okay, I got another thing to present. And so the cadence wasn't quite there and he wasn't able to get the crowd going. There was a lot of like, waiting a little bit for the audience to like, realize that that was a pause line or something.

• 2:58Jordi Hays?

  Disclaimer, never bet against Elon.

• 3:01John Coogan?

  True.

• 3:01Jordi Hays?

  I'm not dumb enough to bet against Elon.

• 3:03John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 3:04Jordi Hays?

  I'm not dumb enough to try to short any of his companies.

• 3:06John Coogan?

  Yes, for sure.

• 3:07Jordi Hays?

  And I'm not, you know, you, by now, you should have learned not to doubt.

• 3:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:15Jordi Hays?

  What his organizations can do.

• 3:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:19Jordi Hays?

  And even though this terra fab concept, you know, there's a lot of reasons that you would want to bet against it.

• 3:24John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:25Jordi Hays?

  There's a lot of, I don't, I don't know that many people that are genuinely sold on, on the space data centers in the near term. It's still, it's not clocking for me.

• 3:38John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 3:38Jordi Hays?

  John, it's not clocking for me.

• 3:40John Coogan?

  That he's standing on business.

• 3:41Jordi Hays?

  It's not.

• 3:42John Coogan?

  He's standing on business and you're, it's not clocking for you.

• 3:44Jordi Hays?

  To me, that he's standing.

• 3:46John Coogan?

  He's standing on.

• 3:47Jordi Hays?

  Space data centers. And so, so this entire pitch, you know, notable, seemingly the first time he's put the Tesla, XAI, SpaceX logos together.

• 3:59John Coogan?

  Sure. The whole. Uh, no. Uh, the tunnel project, Hyperloop, was a blog post that he wrote and it appeared both on the Tesla blog and the SpaceX blog at the same time. And everyone was like, who's going to be involved in this? And it turned out it was like, a couple people from both sides. It became its own company at some point.

• 4:18Jordi Hays?

  I'm not saying it's the first time.

• 4:19John Coogan?

  No, no, but it does feel like Elon megacorp.

• 4:21Jordi Hays?

  He's gearing, gearing up for the Elon megacorp.

• 4:23John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 4:24Jordi Hays?

  And, and yeah, so, so just overall.

• 4:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:29Jordi Hays?

  The pitch is, he's basically saying like, okay, we're gonna do terra fab. It's this really hard project. And the evidence for why you should believe that

• 4:43Jordi Hays?

  it's gonna work well, he's like, we've done a lot of hard things in the past. And then talks a little bit about space data centers. And then he talks about needing something in the order of a thousand times more compute.

• 4:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:59Jordi Hays?

  Then.

• 5:00John Coogan?

  He says, to reach a petawatt, we'll build an electromagnetic mass driver on the moon with robots like Optimus and humans.

• 5:07Jordi Hays?

  No, but before the mass driver.

• 5:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Jordi Hays?

  He's talking about how.

• 5:11John Coogan?

  Oh, we're chip constrained, which is true.

• 5:13Jordi Hays?

  Elon.

• 5:15John Coogan?

  He gets it.

• 5:15Jordi Hays?

  Chip constrained by a thousand X.

• 5:18John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 5:18Jordi Hays?

  And so we have to do this.

• 5:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, we have to build more.

• 5:21Jordi Hays?

  But he doesn't, he doesn't lay out like a super compelling case of what all the chips will be used for, right? Is it, are they gonna be, is SpaceX gonna be a Neo cloud? Is it just for their own internal products like, you know, self-driving, humanoids?

• 5:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Jordi Hays?

  It, you know, again, again, my criticism is not of any individual company as much as the presentation I just came away. He kept saying like, if we can do this, it's gonna be epic.

• 5:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:53Jordi Hays?

  And, and, and.

• 5:54John Coogan?

  It wasn't.

• 5:54Jordi Hays?

  There wasn't a really strong justification. There wasn't a strong justification other than it's gonna be epic.

• 6:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Jordi Hays?

  And then he just closes out with this render of.

• 6:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Jordi Hays?

  The mass driver, which is, again, it's tight.

• 6:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Jordi Hays?

  But I didn't, I didn't, what was the takeaway on like, what we're even gonna use the mass driver for, other than to get to a Kharkov three civilization, which again, all this stuff just feels so, so, so.

• 6:19John Coogan?

  So far in the future.

• 6:20Jordi Hays?

  Far out.

• 6:21John Coogan?

  But.

• 6:22Jordi Hays?

  And he did, he did, he did. He did drop the line, turning science fiction into science sci-

• 6:29John Coogan?

  Science fact?

• 6:30Jordi Hays?

  Science fact.

• 6:30John Coogan?

  No way.

• 6:31Jordi Hays?

  Which is, I think-

• 6:31John Coogan?

  It's a Josh Wolfe line. I mean, I don't know if Josh Wolfe's the first one to ever say it, but it's a good line.

• 6:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I, I, I think of it as a, as a Wolfism.

• 6:39John Coogan?

  I do too.

• 6:40Jordi Hays?

  And it's funny because Josh Wolfe was like the hardest critic of Elon.

• 6:44John Coogan?

  Oh, that's right. Yeah.

• 6:45Jordi Hays?

  And he was-

• 6:47John Coogan?

  That's right.

• 6:47Jordi Hays?

  Like, he basically had to stop at some point.

• 6:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, of course.

• 6:51Jordi Hays?

  Um, but, uh, but yeah, he kept saying these lines and he was like expecting like kind of laughter.

• 6:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, it, it was really hard. I mean, doing like, like the actual delivery of a speech on stage. I mean, Jensen just went through this with a keynote at GTC where he didn't have a teleprompter. And he was able to deliver moments and get the crowd going and the crowd's size at GTC is really big. And so even if you just have a couple hardcore fans that really get you and have listened to every Jensen keynote.

• 7:21Jordi Hays?

  You'll get it.

• 7:22John Coogan?

  They know. Yeah, they start clapping and then everyone starts clapping because it's infectious. And then pretty soon everyone's clapping. This is how it works. Um, so yeah, yeah. I mean, the comedic timing, the delivery timing of like when to clap, when to be, whoa. You know, that was a little tough. I don't know, I actually know who was in the audience. It might've just been employees. Um, it has a certain aesthetic to it. Uh, but interestingly about the tariff fab, this is something I was advocating for back in 2022. So when the Biden CHIPS Act happened, there was this question about like, what's going to happen with Intel? Intel should be at the like, the center of the CHIPS Act because the whole pitch for the CHIPS Act was that America is not on the leading edge of semiconductor fabrication.

• 8:03John Coogan?

  And so we need to sort of pull our weight with our intellectual property laws to stop Taiwan from exporting them. Remember Taiwan isn't its own country. They should in theory be able to sell their products anywhere. Uh, like what, what say do we have over, you know, if, if Japan wants to sell PlayStations to China or anywhere? Why do we have authority over them? Well, it comes down to the intellectual property. There's a lot of patents that have been licensed to ASML, to TSMC. And so we do have- The ability to pull levers and strings to sort of limit those, especially if they're packaged by Nvidia, an American company. We have export rules, but it's it's a stretch, but the whole thesis was America is going to lose to China unless we do this.

• 8:46John Coogan?

  And so Intel was a very logical one. And I remember there was like 60 billion or something up for grabs around the CHIPS Act. At the same time, Elon was marshaling around 60 billion for to buy out Twitter, something like that, 40 something billion. And then Intel's market cap, what their 220 billion dollar company now, I think that they were lower back in 2022. They were maybe 150 billion. And so it would have been a stretch, but between the CHIPS Act money, the all the private equity dollars that came in, all the venture capital dollars that came in to buy Twitter. There was a world where Elon just bought Twitter.

• 9:27John Coogan?

  And there was also that that rumor that he was maybe meeting with Global Foundries, that there were a number of different like, oh, like, what is Elon really great at? He's great at engineering efficiency. What is what is Intel need? It needs engineering efficiency. There was a world where, you know, they they teamed up and and Intel, you know, like really delivered on building new facilities much quicker.

• 9:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 9:51John Coogan?

  But

• 9:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so so I I I think it makes total sense for Elon to make chips.

• 9:56John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 9:57Jordi Hays?

  I think I think it will make sense over time for XAI to start offering cloud services to other companies.

• 10:06John Coogan?

  Yeah. Having computers valuable.

• 10:08Jordi Hays?

  But but still, it this seems like a kind of

• 10:14Jordi Hays?

  just kind of a blatant sci fi pump going into the IPO.

• 10:19John Coogan?

  Maybe I will take the other side of that, but first, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI, their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. And let me also tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world? Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange.

• 10:34Jordi Hays?

  And we have, BNY was the first, Bank of New York was the first company to go public on the New York Stock Exchange.

• 10:41John Coogan?

  Have them joining later today. So the the other side of this is that is that. It is good to have a long-term vision, even if it is decades away. And that's what mass driver on the moon is. It's not going to be realized this quarter. It's not going to be realized this year, probably not even this decade. Elon, interestingly, didn't really put a date on it. Like, he's, yeah, did he say something specific?

• 11:08Speaker 02

  He said, "I hope to see it in my lifetime."

• 11:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Which is like, I mean, he's 54, he's got a while, right?

• 11:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, if he's a radical life extension guy, he could be like 300 years from now, who knows? That's a very vague timeline, whereas in the past with point-to-point, with Roadster, with Cybertruck, with space data centers, all the other Elon pitches have been very focused on, "We think we can do this in five years. We think we can do this in two years." And he always gets criticized for being Elon math, too aggressive. But then history's shown that, you know, he overpromises, underdelivers, but he typically does deliver eventually. And if the technology is completely new, no one else was going to build it, and he's the first one to build it, like, it's fine, because Starlink works. It was the first LEO constellation for satellite internet.

• 11:58John Coogan?

  Had it turned into a huge business, wound up being a great technology. And so, even if it was late, I don't even remember the Starlink predictions, but even if that was late, it's fine, it was still good business. Now, the mass driver's a lot crazier. I was going back and forth with Tyler about this, trying to get him to nail down a prediction. We started with 100 years. Do you think it's possible to put a mass driver on the moon in the next 100 years?

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, but...

• 12:26John Coogan?

  And you said yes, so it's possible.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Yes, there's all sorts of qualifications, right? I think the thing, it was like 300 metric tons.

• 12:33John Coogan?

  Okay, we will go through, we will go through my, my conditions. We will also go through my timeline and then we will get everyone's predictions for how long this will actually take. So first, there was this interesting moment last year when everyone sort of like came around to the same AGI predictions or the same superintelligence predictions saying eight, 10 years, George Hart, Dorkesh, Karpathy, Sam Altman, there were a number of people that were all saying in various words, like Sam said, a few thousand days, Dorkesh had this probability distribution that said 2032. And so everyone was sort of in the in the seven to 10 year range. And it was just this interesting moment in the

• 13:17John Coogan?

  AI industry at least where everyone had a clear definition of like what superintelligence would be. And then simultaneously, everyone was like, yeah, it's not this year. It's it's more like 10. And so it was a cool set of discussions and I enjoyed that moment from last year, sort of around November last year fall. But there's way like we are so far away from consensus around mass driver timelines. I thought it'd be interesting to start developing a thought process around what is a mass driver? What does success look like? And what are reasonable timelines here? Even though I agree with everyone with what you're thinking, which is that it's really far away. Because it is. So first, we have to define what a

• 14:00John Coogan?

  mass driver actually is. In simple terms, it's an electromagnetic launch system fixed on the lunar surface that converts energy. So you put down some solar panels, you take energy, that's the electromagnetic. So you're not putting up fuel. And then because that's extra cost, you, once you're there, you can just repeatedly get sunlight, turn that into energy. And you it's fixed to the lunar surface, and it's going to successfully accelerate a payload to lunar escape velocity, which is one fifth of Earth's escape velocity. You got to be going 5000 miles an hour to escape the moon's gravity well. You have to be going 25,000 miles per hour to escape Earth's. So from an efficiency and energy efficiency

• 14:45John Coogan?

  standpoint, it's much better to leave from the moon than to leave from Earth. So Then the payload needs to go somewhere useful. Like you make this thing. In this, in this video, he's talking about making satellites on the moon. That's even farther away, but those have to go somewhere. So you can't just launch them into deep space. I mean, unless you, that's where you're going. Usually you would go to a lunar orbit or an earth orbit or some point in between the moon and earth. And there are more intermediate steps. You don't need to go straight to satellite with a chip on it from the moon to wherever it's going. You can start just by launching rocks, which sounds crazy, or water or hydrogen.

• 15:30John Coogan?

  If there's ice on the moon, you can split that into hydrogen that can be used as fuel with electricity. Electrolysis is the, is the technique for that. Even just moon rocks can be used as radiation shield.

• 15:43Jordi Hays?

  Dave says, what is this mass driver you speak of? SpaceX is getting in the supplements game?

• 15:48John Coogan?

  That's a great name for us. They've done the Tesla tequila.

• 15:51Jordi Hays?

  Exactly. They should make a, a mass gainer.

• 15:54John Coogan?

  Mass driver.

• 15:55Jordi Hays?

  Release now and say, hey, you'll get, if you buy this, you'll get priority access to the mass driver on the moon.

• 16:02John Coogan?

  I like this. I like this a lot. I would definitely be a, a daily driver of the mass driver. And so that, yeah, there's this question of like, you, you set up this thing. It's going to take forever, be really expensive. What are you actually pushing into space? You probably start with basic materials. So rock, literally rocks, metal, oxygen, water. A lot of useful space infrastructure needs.

• 16:23Jordi Hays?

  What if the asteroids that we get into our atmosphere is just an advanced civilization somewhere else? Just hurling.

• 16:29John Coogan?

  Mass driving. I saw, I saw.

• 16:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we're, we're down range, guys. Relax.

• 16:33John Coogan?

  I lo, I saw a hilarious take that the first UFO that will arrive on earth will just be a car guy from another galaxy who like got into building a crazy, you know, supercars effectively.

• 16:47Jordi Hays?

  Taking it out on a cruise.

• 16:48John Coogan?

  You can't get to earth in that thing. That's too modded. That's too crazy. You're not, yeah, you're going to break down. There's no way. And he's like, I'll show you.

• 16:54Jordi Hays?

  You're going to be too old by the time you get there.

• 16:56John Coogan?

  I'll show you. I, I've modded this thing. So. A lot of useful space infrastructure needs heavy shielding. That means water, regolith, other dense materials are good for shielding humans and sensitive equipment to radiation. There's been a lot of fear around the radiation around affecting different instruments or humans in space. So you wrap them in moon dust or water and then that reflects the or diffuses the radiation. You can also potentially get propellant from the moon. If you can extract water from ice from the moon, especially near the poles, that water can support people because you can drink it. Or you can split it into hydrogen and oxygen for rocket propellant.

• 17:36John Coogan?

  So here are the four conditions I think need to be met in order to say, yes, we have a working mass driver on the moon. This is how I'd formulate this bet with Tyler Cosgrove over there. One, you need a permanently installed electromagnetic launcher and it has to be on the lunar surface. This should be obvious. Two, it has to launch at least 300 metric tons over a 12-month period. This means it's driving significant mass, not just test payloads. Let's aim for 95% mission success and at least 200 launches per year. Failures are going to happen, but we want to get this reliable and at commercial scale and that means that it can't be breaking down all the time.

• 18:18John Coogan?

  Lastly, the mass launch from the moon has to actually be put to use. You can't just have this demo unit that's just blasting rocks into the sun. It's got to go to something useful and that could just be water that's going somewhere else or, you know, rocks that are going somewhere else. But it needs to be like, we're catching them somewhere. There's a reason that it's going there.

• 18:39Jordi Hays?

  How do you adjust the direction?

• 18:43John Coogan?

  I think at the last second, if you have the trajectory right, it's like, how much do you go up? How much do you go over? How much do you go left?

• 18:52Jordi Hays?

  And then of course, once whatever's launched is floating in space and you can use propulsion to kind of move around.

• 18:59John Coogan?

  But yeah, so I mean, with that, it seems like it's a pretty like, it's a pretty basic satellite that doesn't have any propulsion on it, but you could potentially put some, you know, like even just a gas can.

• 19:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I was more, I was more asking because it's just like, okay, do we need, do we need, do we need every possible angle of mass driver? How many mass drivers do we need? Because I'm assuming we don't want to send every single thing that we want to send into space.

• 19:22John Coogan?

  The exact same angle?

• 19:23Jordi Hays?

  The exact same direction.

• 19:24John Coogan?

  Okay, we're going to sell that one later. That's a 2065 issue. We'll get there. Quickly, let me tell you about public.com. Investing for those that take it seriously. Stocks, options, bonds, cryptos, treasuries, and more with great customer service. And let me also tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business and lets you sell in seconds, online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. So, once all the, all four of those conditions are met, it will be hard to argue that we're in some sort of demo phase or publicity stunt. We know we love a publicity stunt, but this needs to be actually commercial. I'm looking for model three level success, not Tesla semi-level success.

• 20:03John Coogan?

  I want to see this actually working, reviews, economics. I want other, other, other companies being like, yes, I benefit. I'm, I'm a buyer of mass from the driver. So, how long will this take?

• 20:17Jordi Hays?

  You should, you should put the goalposts on the driver. The way that you, you keep moving them.

• 20:24John Coogan?

  I'm moving the goalposts on this? I feel like I'm just trying to dial.

• 20:27Jordi Hays?

  Oh, it needs to be economically viable.

• 20:30John Coogan?

  I mean, what, what Elon showed was extremely economically viable. If you're just up on the moon and the moon is just producing satellites with chips that are fabbed and they just go into space, like that's extremely economically valuable. As long as he can get the cost down.

• 20:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 20:46John Coogan?

  And build it in some reasonable amount of time. And it's going to take a long time. So how long will it take? I put the over under at like 15 to 20 years, which is about as aggressive as I could get. I think Tyler's going to take the other side of this.

• 20:58Jordi Hays?

  Well, I'm going to take the over.

• 20:59John Coogan?

  You're taking, you're going to take over 20.

• 21:01Jordi Hays?

  15 years is, I think, kind of crazy.

• 21:03John Coogan?

  15 years is a blink of an eye. It really is.

• 21:05Jordi Hays?

  Well, personally, you know, I think I have a bit more AGI pill than you, Tyler.

• 21:10John Coogan?

  Okay. Okay. Well, let's go through the six steps.

• 21:13Jordi Hays?

  Just say, just say, just say you lost faith.

• 21:15John Coogan?

  The six steps, six steps. Okay. So first off, we got to get to the moon. We can't really get to the moon right now. We're, we're like, we're pretty close with like really small payloads. We need reliable, heavy lunar launch capacity and that's going to take some time. So Starship needs to be refueling in orbit, landing on the moon with and without crews. Cause you're probably going to need some humans up there, some robots, and we need to start routine cargo flights to the moon. So this is straight up like three to five years away, like minimum. Then you need to build the power infrastructure. So mass driving hogs electricity. You need to deploy 100 kilowatt solar array, then build out energy storage systems.

• 21:57John Coogan?

  So you can burst power during launches and ultimately scale to multi megawatt continuous power generation plant. So that's another couple of years because once you're actually going up and back, you have to put down a bunch of solar panels, stored in batteries, and then the batteries need to be able to deliver a lot of power all of a sudden. Now, this is what the Tesla does, right? You can charge your Tesla Model S Plaid off of solar panels. It'll take, you know, a couple of days. And then when you're ready to go zero to 60 in two seconds, like it can deliver that energy very, very quickly. And that's what you need for a, an electromagnetic mass driver because it's a, it's a railgun, basically.

• 22:30Jordi Hays?

  So, yeah. And to SpaceX team's credit, this stuff can, a lot of this stuff can be done in parallel, right? By the time, like I would, I would hope that five years from now, Optimus is, is quite good, functional, valuable at that point in time. Maybe we can get to the moon and back.

• 22:48John Coogan?

  And I've, I've talked to SpaceX folks who have been working on, on putting solar panels out on Mars. The problem with Mars is it's farther away from the sun, so you have to put out a lot of solar panels. And that's why maybe they're thinking nuclear on the, on Mars. But it's, it's not like they've never thought about how do you deploy solar once you get to another celestial body. They've been thinking about this for at least over a decade that I know of. So robotic construction capacity, you got to get autonomous construction rovers at least up and running to lay the electromagnetic track. You have to, you have to solve for all the insane forces during high acceleration, deal with thermal expansion. So you're basically, you're basically laying train tracks that have electromagnetic coils in them.

• 23:32John Coogan?

  So they're way more particular than just like railroad tracks. But then those coils, all that infrastructure has to deal with being negative 280 degrees Fahrenheit during the night and then positive 260 Fahrenheit during the day, I think. So like massive, massive temperature fluctuations. And that means everything expands, contracts. If you have metal there, it gets, it gets brittle during the night, it gets warmer during the day. That's maybe three years of work, maybe a lot more.

• 24:04John Coogan?

  Then you actually have to build the mass driver on Earth like you, because you don't have the infrastructure to build anything up there yet. So you have to build most of it on Earth. You need to ship hundreds of tons of superconduction coils to the moon. These fit, the physics behind all this stuff actually comes from a Navy scientist back in the 1970s. And so

• 24:24Jordi Hays?

  Wait, isn't it, isn't his pitch, we're just gonna just drop a bunch of robots on the moon and they're gonna just like mine and, and refine rare earths and then build out the manufacturing facility with those rare earths and like just kind of become a self-replicating civilization, fully autonomous civilization? Like I thought the whole pitch was that we didn't have to send coils.

• 24:45John Coogan?

  I think, I think we definitely have to send like close to finished goods. I would be very, I would be very surprised if you can go and just scoop up some lunar regolith and be like, okay, step one, make a wrench, make a hammer. Okay, now I have a hammer and a wrench. Now let's make some, some rebar, let's make some cement. All of that is, is you would, you would, just logically, you would pull it forward by delivering some of that pre-made because it's just, it's just one extra space SpaceX launch to get up there and then have, you know, a CNC machine or something. I don't know, whatever you put up there. Like you're not going to go with nothing. So you're looking at another five years here, at least you'll need dozens of dedicated cargo flights just to get the several

• 25:29John Coogan?

  hundred ton system up there. Then you need to assemble the track sections with humans or more likely robotic crews, integrate the supply, the power supply and cooling systems, test everything rigorously. Integration hell can take years, but should overlap with some of the other milestones. Lastly, you need to shift into operational launches. Your first payload needs to achieve escape velocity and at no point can a catastrophic flight failure result in permanent damage to the mass driver or the energy infrastructure. And obviously we've seen You know, test failures at SpaceX where things blow up and it can hurt other support infrastructure and that can delay things.

• 26:04Jordi Hays?

  Do we know how long the mass driver is roughly?

• 26:07John Coogan?

  I think like one kilometer is about enough, but I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure on where that is, but that's a long way to go.

• 26:15Jordi Hays?

  If the California government thinking about one, one kilometer of track?

• 26:19John Coogan?

  That's 50 years right there. So, you know, just testing all that, not damaging things, any unforeseen setbacks, that's another five years with lots of variability. The good news is that once you build it, once you've built it, like the benefits are really good. Like you don't have an atmosphere, there's no drag, no weather, no air resistance, and of course gravity is a lot less. So you still need a plan for where the mass goes after it's driven. You gotta catch it kind of, and that's a whole nother problem. But, and, and when you add all these projects up, you start easily getting into the decades, but.

• 26:53Jordi Hays?

  And what, and the render just kind of played, everyone clapped, and then the, the presentation was over. But the idea is to put more space data centers on these?

• 27:06John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, if you think about this in like the most grand project you can imagine, which is like the Dyson Sphere, basically solar panels directly around the sun, all the way around the sun to capture all of its energy. You're going to need to send a lot of solar panels to the sun. Making those on the moon is lower cost potentially than making them on Earth. That's the theory, that's the theory. But then in the meantime, Elon's clearly thinking about making at least part of the satellite up there. And then, I mean, you could, you could ship up the chips and just make the, the housing up there if that's the most, if that's the heaviest part. You could make the more economically precise valuable piece up here, drop off a bunch of

• 27:50John Coogan?

  chips, drop them into the actual, you know, housing that's been made and then launch those into orbit. There's a whole bunch of other.

• 27:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but then you're sending chips from here to the moon and then they're being sent back, right?

• 27:59John Coogan?

  No, they're not being sent back. They're sent, they're being sent into various orbits.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Okay, so these are not the-

• 28:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and then, and then again, my concern, and again, I'm not a mass driver expert. I'm just kind of thinking through this, is like, what if the, like, you got like, one shot?

• 28:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:14Jordi Hays?

  Basically.

• 28:15John Coogan?

  Well, I mean, the moons, the moons, uh, like, movements are pretty predictable. And it's not like the moon's just up there going crazy, right? Like, the moon is, like, rotating on-

• 28:23Speaker 02

  It's like, extremely predictable.

• 28:25John Coogan?

  It's pretty extreme, it's perfectly predictable.

• 28:26Jordi Hays?

  Predicted hundreds of years.

• 28:27John Coogan?

  Yeah, and so, and so if you have it lined up, so that every day, at least, it lines up to be the perfect angle, like, then you just launch right then.

• 28:36Jordi Hays?

  I know, but you're saying we're launching them back into, like, just into Earth's orbit?

• 28:40John Coogan?

  Earth's orbit, yeah.

• 28:42Jordi Hays?

  Toward where the SpaceX-

• 28:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, you are kind of round-tripping. But, but i- it's the equivalent of like, of like, dropping a ball versus throwing it up.

• 28:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:53John Coogan?

  Like, you're dropping stuff.

• 28:54Jordi Hays?

  But it seems, it seems clear- It seems clear that, that the, it's gonna require, like, the vast majority of the components for these satellites being made-

• 29:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:04Jordi Hays?

  Entirely on the moon, otherwise, it could very well not make sense.

• 29:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, no, totally. Like, like, there is no benefit to bringing a fully complete, uh, Starlink satellite up there, and then driving it from the moon down to low Earth orbit. That makes no sense. The only thing that makes sense is if you're able to get something, like, the vast majority of the mass, ideally 100% of the mass, from what's already on the moon, because that's already been driven up there. It's already at low gravity. Like, the energy is stored effectively up there.

• 29:34Jordi Hays?

  I'm seeing a tourism angle, when the mass driver's pointed back at the Earth, to like, be in a little, like, bob, bob sled type thing?

• 29:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:42Jordi Hays?

  A little pod, to be launched at the Earth, and then you kind of break through the atmosphere, and then you parachute.

• 29:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:49Jordi Hays?

  That could be good for, like, gender reveal birthday parties, you know?

• 29:52John Coogan?

  Potentially.

• 29:56John Coogan?

  Yes. Well, let me tell you about Restream. One livestream, 30 plus destinations. If you want to multi-stream, go to Restream.com. And let me also tell you about Cisco. Unlock critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless, real-time experiences and new

• 30:10Jordi Hays?

  Okay, predictions. Tyler, you're going over 20 years.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  You're going over 20 years.

• 30:14John Coogan?

  Are you going under 70 years?

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just so hard because like right now I don't, it's hard to see like a real economic incentive to do this. Like, because even, even space data centers, it's like still pretty hard to like figure out how like, like why that like really makes sense. Uh, but then like, for this to work, you need maybe space data centers, but you also need them to somehow be built on the moon for them to make sense, right? So I think, uh, yeah, maybe I'll like median is like something like 70 years.

• 30:43John Coogan?

  70 years? Okay. Median, 70.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Uh, give me 50, 50.

• 30:49John Coogan?

  50 years. Okay, 50 years. Getting more techno-optimist over here. Jordy, if I'm at 20 and Tyler's at 50, where are you?

• 31:00John Coogan?

  And while you think about it, let me tell everyone about Apple. Profitable advertising made easy with Axon.ai. Get access to over 1 billion daily active users and grow your business today.

• 31:09Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 31:10John Coogan?

  You got it?

• 31:11Jordi Hays?

  My concern is that an Elon, like Elon is the only-

• 31:19John Coogan?

  I didn't specify Elon. Could be anybody.

• 31:21Jordi Hays?

  No, but I'm just saying there's, there's a lot of, there's-

• 31:24John Coogan?

  I'm just saying Master Drive around the moon.

• 31:27Jordi Hays?

  This needs an Elon-esque figure to accomplish. And

• 31:34Jordi Hays?

  yeah, I'm thinking more in that 50, 50 year.

• 31:38John Coogan?

  Over 50 or under 50? We gave Tyler exactly-

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I changed, I'm going 30.

• 31:43John Coogan?

  30? Whoa.

• 31:46Jordi Hays?

  What changed?

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Well, I was just like, you know, AGI is like basically here. There's no way it's going to take that long.

• 31:51John Coogan?

  There we go. There we go.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  It's like everything will be so-

• 31:54John Coogan?

  Okay, so you want-

• 31:55Jordi Hays?

  No, I mean, I was thinking five years.

• 31:59John Coogan?

  I was thinking months, specifically 50,000 months.

• 32:03Jordi Hays?

  I mean, when, you know, OpenAI Codex 6 comes out.

• 32:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, totally possible. One shot it. No, no, no, even, even, even in the software only singularity, like there is just amount of time that takes to.

• 32:15Jordi Hays?

  I have, I, I have a pull to mid curve this one.

• 32:20John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 32:21Jordi Hays?

  And just, and just think, okay, this is just a big pump.

• 32:23John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 32:24Jordi Hays?

  It's just a big pump.

• 32:24John Coogan?

  You're mid curve.

• 32:26Jordi Hays?

  We need the semiconductor pump, we need the space pump, the mass driver pump.

• 32:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Jordi Hays?

  To get to the $2 trillion valuation. We need a lot of pumps going on, right? Uh, space data centers, mass drivers, semis, like it's the final pump.

• 32:41Jordi Hays?

  That is the mid curve.

• 32:42John Coogan?

  That's the mid curve.

• 32:43Jordi Hays?

  The mid curve.

• 32:44John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. What's the left curve?

• 32:45Jordi Hays?

  The left curve.

• 32:46John Coogan?

  Is Elon good. Elon good businessman.

• 32:49Jordi Hays?

  AI accelerate.

• 32:50John Coogan?

  Yeah. Elon good businessman.

• 32:52Jordi Hays?

  Five years.

• 32:53John Coogan?

  Elon make thing. Elon put the thing in space.

• 32:55Jordi Hays?

  Elon do hard thing.

• 32:56John Coogan?

  Elon do hard thing.

• 32:57Jordi Hays?

  And then, and then the, the, the right would be just like insane AI acceleration. What does Elon know?

• 33:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Jordi Hays?

  And.

• 33:08John Coogan?

  Who else is gonna do it? He has all the infrastructure. He's cornered the launch market. He's shown a big track record. Uh, yeah.

• 33:17Jordi Hays?

  The politics thing.

• 33:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:21Jordi Hays?

  It's hard to see how real it is.

• 33:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:23Jordi Hays?

  Right?

• 33:24John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 33:24Jordi Hays?

  Because these data centers on land do generate a lot of local revenues.

• 33:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Jordi Hays?

  And there are going to be plenty of places that want them.

• 33:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:33Jordi Hays?

  But.

• 33:36Jordi Hays?

  Uh, so hard not to mid curve.

• 33:41John Coogan?

  Well, while you think of your final estimate, knowing that I'm at 20, Tyler's at 30, and you are undecided, let me tell everyone about Gusto. The unified platform for payroll benefits and HR, built to evolve with modern, small and medium sized businesses. What's your final answer?

• 33:56Jordi Hays?

  10 years.

• 33:57John Coogan?

  10 years.

• 34:00Jordi Hays?

  Until we have.

• 34:04Jordi Hays?

  Until we have.

• 34:05John Coogan?

  Elon's like, Jordy, that's too aggressive. I never said 10.

• 34:08Jordi Hays?

  No, I'm just saying 10, 10 years, 10 years to an MVP.

• 34:12John Coogan?

  No, no, no, no. It needs to specifically be launching 300 metric tons, 95% mission success, 200 launches a year. It needs to be pumping mass. It needs to be driving. Never, never. I think.

• 34:27Jordi Hays?

  No, I think, I, I, I think, I think. Pumping mass?

• 34:33John Coogan?

  Driving mass.

• 34:34Jordi Hays?

  Driving mass.

• 34:37Jordi Hays?

  Ah, it's gotta be, I'm thinking, I'm thinking 2100.

• 34:41John Coogan?

  Okay. Based on just average life expectancy, he's got another 20 years. 54, average life expectancy is 75, 76. He has access to all sorts of stuff, you know? Could go for 30, could go for 40. Plus, like, you forget that, like, like, Apple introduced products after Steve Jobs passed away. Like, companies continue to exist. Company and, and projects will be picked up. There will be other competitors. This isn't even a specifically an Elon thing. This is a humanity thing.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  I, I think there actually is like a.

• 35:15John Coogan?

  What about China? China could do it.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Maybe if, if there's some economic incentive found on Mars or like asteroid mining, like, it actually is, does make sense to, to do, to, to, to launch from the moon, right? Cause it's like so much easier.

• 35:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Cryoswelling its energy.

• 35:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  So.

• 35:31Jordi Hays?

  2100.

• 35:32John Coogan?

  75 years. 75 years. There is another, there is another mass driver idea, which is you, you build this, you take a shuttle to the moon, and then if you want to go to Mars, you are mass driven from the moon to Mars.

• 35:50Jordi Hays?

  Ryan says Roadster has been 10 years since they sold out pre-orders. This isn't gonna happen. The Roadster is happening.

• 35:56John Coogan?

  Ryan, i- is it never going to happen? Like, you would say Roadster's not gonna have, I mean, Roadster could just get completely canceled, but, uh, no one does it. I'm not even saying Elon. I'm saying humanity, mass driver, moon, over, under, 2100. 75 years. You got 70, 74 years. Seems possible. I don't know.

• 36:19John Coogan?

  Okay, which one?

• 36:20Jordi Hays?

  What about, what about, what about?

• 36:21John Coogan?

  Mass driver on the moon?

• 36:22Jordi Hays?

  So, so here's, here's, here's the thing. You have to make so many.

• 36:27Jordi Hays?

  You have to come to terms with so many incredible technological leaps to get to the point where the mass driver on the moon is mass driving.

• 36:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Jordi Hays?

  If, assume we get all those leaps, can we not just mass drive from, let's say, the Earth?

• 36:44John Coogan?

  I don't think so. I mean, there's a company that's doing this.

• 36:47Jordi Hays?

  Twenty-five thousand miles per hour.

• 36:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, there's a company that's doing this called like Spin Launch.

• 36:51Jordi Hays?

  Fastest plane has been, is like that NASA plane, it's like 7,000 miles an hour.

• 36:58John Coogan?

  7,000? I thought it was like, I thought it was like a couple thousand. I don't know. Fastest plane. Yeah, look up the fastest plane. We'll tell you about the McAlib default, which Andrew McAlib, friend of the show over at Varda Space, was in The Economist. The cost of a one gigawatt data center in space, he pegged it at 50 billion. Star Cloud is aiming for 16 billion. Star Cloud at 200 grand, $200 a kilogram is around 10, 11 billion dollars per gigawatt.

• 37:34Jordi Hays?

  Fastest aircraft, fastest aircraft speed ever recorded is Mach 9.6 by an unmanned NASA X-43 scram jet on November 16, 2004. It's nearly 7,000 miles per hour.

• 37:49John Coogan?

  Okay, so we got to 5X that or something to get to, 4X that, to get to escape velocity, to escape the, to just like do the thing from interstellar and just drive a plane into the, into the atmosphere and just go to space. Maybe, maybe. Do you think we will have mass driver on the moon first, or? Mass driver on the moon first, or?

• 38:12Jordi Hays?

  ZIT says the mid curve is definitely right.

• 38:14John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 38:19Jordi Hays?

  Total victory.

• 38:20John Coogan?

  Mass driver on the moon first, or Atlantis first? Atlantis, full society of people living underwater in like some sort of glass dome, where it's fully sustained, you can go, you can move there and be like, yeah, I got a buddy who moved to the new Atlantis and he, I haven't seen him in three years. He's just been down there, happy, living life. Which one do you think happens first?

• 38:47Speaker 02

  I've been very bullish on Atlantis data centers.

• 38:50John Coogan?

  Atlantis data centers. Atlantis data centers actually make a ton of sense, right? Don't you get a ton of cooling for free?

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's like all sorts of stuff that.

• 38:58John Coogan?

  You get no energy.

• 38:59Jordi Hays?

  No, the vents.

• 39:00John Coogan?

  The vents?

• 39:01Jordi Hays?

  Geothermal.

• 39:02John Coogan?

  Geothermal, okay.

• 39:03Jordi Hays?

  No one's talking about underwater data centers.

• 39:05John Coogan?

  No one's doing this. James, call up James Cameron. He'll be on this. Let me tell you about vibe.co. We're DTC brands, B2B startups and AI companies advertise on streaming TV. Pick channels, target audiences and measure sales just like on Meta. And let me also tell you about Phantom Cash. Fund your wallet without exchanges or middlemen and spend with the Phantom card. Okay, so we have.

• 39:22Jordi Hays?

  So hard to be bearish on the technology business programming network. I'm sorry, everyone. I'm sorry.

• 39:28John Coogan?

  We got a D cell over here.

• 39:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we got a D cell over here.

• 39:31John Coogan?

  True D cell with a crazy IP doom over here.

• 39:34Jordi Hays?

  No, I mean, 2100 is, is, is pretty acceleration pilled if you look at the fact that going to the moon is now a lost art.

• 39:41John Coogan?

  I've talked to a lot of people in tech that say, uh, the 2100 milestone is Dyson sphere. And so like you probably get the math driver before you get the Dyson sphere.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Like full Dyson sphere?

• 39:52John Coogan?

  Full, uh, maybe over 50% coverage. Yeah. 20, 2100 because like this is based on super intelligence.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, this is like, you know, every AI company is a Dyson sphere company.

• 40:05John Coogan?

  At the end of the day, potentially, yeah. And then, and then the question of, uh, what, what, what is it? Carters have one is all the sunlight that falls on the earth. Carters have two is all solar panels all the way around the entire sun. So we get the sunlight that doesn't just hit earth. It also hits the, it also hits Mars, also hits the backside. You know, you get all of that power, so much more power than, uh, than the, uh, than, than just Carters have one. But then I think Carters have three is every, you, you're harvesting energy from every sun in your soul, in your, not your solar system, but your galaxy or something like that, like everything in the Milky Way. It gets really crazy.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  In the galaxy.

• 40:48John Coogan?

  In the galaxy. And that's a lot of power. That's a lot of power. By then, it's totally possible that like. You won't be able to tell the difference between like AI-generated imagery and like real imagery with that much power. It's entirely possible that it could be funny.

• 41:03Jordi Hays?

  It'll be able to

• 41:04Speaker 02

  It's like the automated workflows.

• 41:06Jordi Hays?

  It'll be able to do high school level

• 41:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:08Jordi Hays?

  homework.

• 41:09John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 41:10Jordi Hays?

  Reliably.

• 41:10John Coogan?

  For sure. Well, we have a related prediction from Calci about Tesla. Will the Tesla Optimus be released this year? It's in a 25.4% chance and it jumped a little bit just over the past week. It was down at 19%. It's pumped to almost 30%. Now it's down at 25% based on the more recent announcements from Elon Musk.

• 41:35Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, to end on some positivity, I am glad that Tesla and Elon Inc. are going to be focused on chip manufacturing. I think we'll get some very, I think we'll get some real progress there and it is good for

• 41:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:52Jordi Hays?

  America. It's good for the world that they are choosing to work on this very hard problem.

• 41:56John Coogan?

  I agree with that. I had a different positive conclusion as well, which is that I think it's fine to think in decades and share a vision that is decades away. The last thing I want is for technologists to be devoid of long-term vision. I really don't want there to be like an end of the tunnel. Oh, we're just working towards superintelligence and then we can all become complacent. I'd much rather get excited about projects many years away or decades away that only have a slight chance of working rather than the alternative, which is just stagnation. And so I'm cheering for the mass driver and there's that old phrase, shoot for the moon. If you miss, you'll land among the stars. And I couldn't agree more with that.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  I think it's the other shoot for the stars, you'll land on the moon.

• 42:41John Coogan?

  No, it's not that. It's shoot for the moon. If you miss, you'll land amongst the stars. If you shoot for the stars, you're just going to randomly land anywhere. The chance that you land on the moon.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  The moon is closer than the stars.

• 42:52John Coogan?

  No, no, no, no, no. You shoot for the moon, which is this narrow target. And if you miss, you go off into the star.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Okay. You're talking about directions. I'm talking about like distance, right?

• 43:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  If you're shooting for the stars, you don't get all the way there.

• 43:03John Coogan?

  Once you're, once you've reached escape velocity, if you miss the moon, you'll just keep going until you hit a star. It might take you a long time, but you will land there.

• 43:15Jordi Hays?

  I think I'm right about that.

• 43:16John Coogan?

  I don't think, look it up, look it up. So.

• 43:20Jordi Hays?

  Let's head over to.

• 43:21John Coogan?

  Take us somewhere else, Jordy.

• 43:23Jordi Hays?

  Let's head over to suspended cap.

• 43:25John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 43:25Jordi Hays?

  What do they have to say? Are they bullish on? Suspended cap bullish on the presentation?

• 43:31John Coogan?

  Terrafab, suspended cap says Terrafab is a blatant pump. It actually disgusts me. There will never be leading edge chips from them. There will never be data centers in space. It's such a blatant effort to IPO SpaceX on the back of some pie in the sky BS and then merge with Tesla, do a humongous raise and keep. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah for five years. Anyway, not suspended cap's not a, not a fan. Decel, suspended cap's a decel. Anyway, let me tell you about Railway. Railway is the all in one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agent to deploy web apps, servers and databases and more while Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring and security. Should we go over to the mall king? Where should we go next, Jordy?

• 44:12Jordi Hays?

  Uh, let's head over to the mall king.

• 44:14John Coogan?

  Okay, so there was an obituary in the Wall Street Journal for David Simon. He was a mall king who was both feared and admired. He was, had ruthless negotiation tactics, an obsession with details and the sheer force of will that turned his family's real estate business into the largest mall owner in the country. He passed away on Sunday after a cancer diagnosis in 2024. He was diagnosed with cancer in 2024. He was 64 years old. During his more than three, his more than three decades as Simon Property Group's chief executive, the inveterate dealmaker gobbled up competitors and defied critics who said malls were obsolete.

• 44:55John Coogan?

  Over a decades long buying spree, he cobbled together an empire that spanned 250 properties and 2,000 or 206 million square feet, giving Simon control of more retail space than anyone in the world. His success helped propel the family to the wealthiest echelons with an estimated net worth of 11.6 billion, ranking number 38 on Forbes magazine's list of the richest American families.

• 45:20John Coogan?

  Through a charitable donation, donates to many causes, including a $5 million gift to Columbia University. At a time when malls were failing and retailers were filing for bankruptcy, Simon invested in his properties, beefed up their luxury offerings, and added non-shopping tenants such as high-end fitness centers, high-tech mini golf courses, and upscale residents. I feel like that has been the secret to success with the modern mall. There's a lot of malls that have sort of mid-tier or low-end retailers, where it is actually pretty comparable to shopping online. You go in, there's no one that's really going to talk to you. The stuff's just there, it might be on the floor, it's messy. But then, there are certain malls that have leaned into the higher-end experience, and they're, "Oh, would you like a drink?

• 46:03John Coogan?

  Let's talk about what you're thinking, let's show you all this stuff, try this on." And it's much more, it's just in a completely different tier than e-commerce shopping. And so I feel like those properties and those chains have done very well. So, along with partners, he snapped up ailing retailers, including Aeropostale, Nautica, Eddie Bauer, JCPenney, Forever 21, Lucky Brand, and Brooks Brothers. The arrangement propped up the chains, prevented large vacancies in Simon malls, and turned out to be moneymakers for the company. Effective Monday, Simon's board appointed Eli Simon, one of David Simon's five children, as its CEO and president. The mall king was both feared and admired, and could be both charming and terrifying. Simon unleashed a tirade at coach executive Todd Kahn

• 46:48John Coogan?

  during their first meeting in the decade of the 2000s, after the handbag maker tried to renege on deals to open stores in Simon malls. "There was no shortage of profanity," Kahn said. "The two came to an agreement and became friends. Nothing like a screaming match to kick off a lifelong friendship. David's word was his bond. You could have bang-out meetings, but if you came to a resolution and you shook hands, it was golden." That's a good way of doing business.

• 47:13Jordi Hays?

  Well, R.I.P. to the mall king.

• 47:16John Coogan?

  To the mall king.

• 47:17Jordi Hays?

  Hopefully we'll get a chance to meet Eli at some point.

• 47:21John Coogan?

  Yes. OpenAI is offering private equity firms a guaranteed minimum return of 17.5% as well as early access to models not yet in public release. There was a lot of chatter on the timeline going back and forth, like, is this some sort of weird guarantee? Is this not normal for private equity dealing? Market participant had a breakdown to take you through it. So why don't you read through some of this? But first, I will tell everyone about MongoDB. What is the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB? Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it.

• 47:57Jordi Hays?

  Many are saying OpenAI's $10 billion private equity joint venture is giving a desperate feeling. A lot of people are throwing up the red flag emoji, saying vendor financing dressed up as venture capital guaranteed returns. It smell like a Ponzi. A company burning $14 billion this year buying distribution. It can't earn organically. I'd push back. TPG, Bain Capital, Advent and Brookfield put up $4 billion. They get preferred equity with a 17 and a half minimum return, board seats and early access to OpenAI's newest model. OpenAI gets instant distribution into hundreds of portfolio companies. No traditional enterprise sales cycles, no selling company by company. The part people are missing, a huge number of software companies are privately held. Tomo Bravo alone owns 75 software companies generating $30 billion in annual revenue. PE firms collectively did 1.8 trillion in

• 48:42Jordi Hays?

  buyouts last year. These companies are shifting to heavy token consumption. AWS knows this. They run a dedicated PE sales function.

• 48:50John Coogan?

  Talk about a dream job. That, oh, I would kill for that. Yeah.

• 48:55Jordi Hays?

  Yes, if you love private equity.

• 48:57John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 48:58Jordi Hays?

  Hard to imagine.

• 48:58John Coogan?

  Anyway.

• 48:59Jordi Hays?

  Anything better. Advisory programs, transformation consultants, the whole apparatus. Azure and GCP do the same. OpenAI is running the cloud distribution playbook. Wholesale tokens to PE portfolios at scale. The difference is exclusivity. AWS doesn't ask PE firms to put up $4 billion to take board seats. They give the advisory away. OpenAI is asking for for capital commitment, which buys preferential access, dedicated forward deployed engineers and a financial incentive for the PE firm to actually push adoption across its portfolio. A PE firm that invested $4 billion in this JV. Isn't running a parallel RFP with Anthropic, that's the point. The seventeen and a half percent return looks like a red flag until you look at it closely. It's preferred at equity hurdle, not a coupon on debt. This is the main thing that the hundreds of posts I saw are missing.

• 49:44Jordi Hays?

  Priority on returns before common shareholders. So it's preferred equity plus a return on top of that. OpenAI is buying captive distribution channel into enterprises they'd otherwise spend years trying to reach. Anthropic is running a parallel deal with Blackstone, Hellman, Friedman, and Per Mira. It's one billion common equity, no guaranteed return, more of a Palantir-style consulting venture. Both companies doing this simultaneously tells you where enterprise AI is heading. The bear case is real, ninety-five percent of enterprise AI pilots fail to deliver ROI. It's already gone.

• 50:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's not true anymore, but.

• 50:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that was one study, and again.

• 50:27John Coogan?

  It was.

• 50:28Jordi Hays?

  Every.

• 50:29John Coogan?

  Agent coding.

• 50:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 50:33Jordi Hays?

  Fourteen billion in projected losses this year, profitability not expected until 2021. Nine, all true in OpenAI's enterprise business is already ten billion of twenty-five billion in revenue. Forty percent and growing to fifty percent by year end. The distribution problem is what's left to solve.

• 50:48Jordi Hays?

  And anyways, goes on and on, but yeah, overall, I think like people are taking one data point out of context, kind of spinning it into something that that looks like quite extreme and concerning when in reality is just giving them a preferred return, which is somewhat normal.

• 51:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, good, good takes here. Let me tell you about cognition. They're the makers of Devon, the AI software engineer. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. And let me also tell you about Okta. Okta helps you assign every AI agent a trusted identity. So you get the power of AI without the risk. Secure every agent, secure any agent.

• 51:29Jordi Hays?

  Financial Times had some reporting Saturday, OpenAI to double workforce as business push intensifies. I love a business push, so this is fantastic news. Matt Slotnick says TBH, the biggest risk to incumbents may be that labs absorb all the top talent. Labs already get great engineering talent, but this will spread to product, sales, marketing, et cetera. When they become the optimal destination to solve the problems of your customers, it's going to get ugly.

• 51:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Jordi Hays?

  Basically, you know, you have a big enterprise instead of going and doing and trying to figure out like the right SaaS.

• 52:01John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:01Jordi Hays?

  Solution for a specific problem, you can go to a lab and get something similar. As part of that workforce push, OpenAI tapped former Meta executive to lead their ad push.

• 52:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, why is no one talking about Dave Dugan?

• 52:18Jordi Hays?

  The Duganator.

• 52:19John Coogan?

  The Duganator. It's, uh, it's crazy.

• 52:22Jordi Hays?

  Dave Dugan, a former top advertising executive at Meta, is going to lead sale, ad sales. Uh, Dugan, who announced earlier this month, he was stepping down from his role as Vice President of Global Clients and Agencies at Meta, has been named Vice President of Global Ad Solutions for OpenAI. He will report to Brad.

• 52:39John Coogan?

  Lightcap.

• 52:40Jordi Hays?

  The Lightcapinator.

• 52:43Jordi Hays?

  The high-profile hire underscores OpenAI's urgent push to generate new revenue streams to support its enormous funding requirements for its computing needs.

• 52:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, Eric Sufer had some good, uh, good commentary around like the ad sales strategy.

• 52:59John Coogan?

  People were complaining that like the advertisers that bought the first ad campaigns on ChatGPT said that the process was low tech and that they haven't received much data showing if their ads worked. Two executives at agencies working with early ChatGPT advertisers said they haven't yet been able to prove the ads have driven any measurable business out from their outcomes for their clients. Eric Sufer over at Mobile Dev Memo shared, uh, two thoughts on reporting that early ChatGPT ad campaigns lacked performance data. One, this is to be expected. Any early offering will feature limited functionality. Early adopters should be prepared to fill measurement gaps themselves with polling, you know, or, or any other sort of pixels or tracking. You should be able to work this together.

• 53:42John Coogan?

  There's been plenty of times, this was the early podcast ads, you know, you'd run a bunch of podcast ads and be like, okay, some people use the coupon code, but a lot of people don't. What multiplier should I apply to that? And then you wind up surveying your customer base and being like, wait, we spent 10% of our marketing budget on podcast ads, but 20% of our customers that they found out about us from a podcast, like, maybe we should spend more there, right? And that's the role of a good, of a good ad agency. Measuring incredibly asserting performance is it is precisely what ad agencies are paid to do. Says Eric Suft. Says if an ad agency says it can't provide performance data because the channel doesn't provide it. It is merely a media buying intermediary.

• 54:24John Coogan?

  If you're an ad agency, you got to figure out whether or not the ads that you pitch to your clients are actually working. Quickly, let me tell you about 11 labs. Build intelligent, real time conversational agents. Reimagine human technology interaction with 11 labs. Mark Zuckerberg.

• 54:40Jordi Hays?

  Big scoop.

• 54:41John Coogan?

  Huge.

• 54:41Jordi Hays?

  From Megan over at the Journal. Mark Zuckerberg is building a CEO agent to help him do his job. Employees are also adopting AI agents and AI tools internally, namely my claw. My claw.

• 54:56John Coogan?

  My claw.

• 54:57Jordi Hays?

  My dude.

• 54:58John Coogan?

  And second brain in a bid to speed up work as they get graded on AI use. And so.

• 55:05Jordi Hays?

  Tyler, where's our my claw and our second brain?

• 55:10John Coogan?

  I think.

• 55:10Jordi Hays?

  And our co-host.

• 55:11John Coogan?

  Chat GPT. Um, yeah, I don't know. I'm so interested to know what, uh, what Mark Zuckerberg is prompting.

• 55:19Jordi Hays?

  Revenge says Z stack.

• 55:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Jordi Hays?

  Honestly, Zuck's Z stack is like, it's like God mode.

• 55:26John Coogan?

  I mean, it does make sense in his position to have a model that's fine tuned on the internal KPIs. The internal org chart, all this information that's private. And he probably doesn't want to hand that off to another, to another lab that's just going to maybe look at the data and be like, oh, okay, so Mark Zuckerberg just add, just asked, how do I poach from, from all the other labs? Maybe we should go on the defense today. Um, but there's got to be so many other questions that he's asking all the time. When, when you're walking into a meeting with executives, you want to know, well, how is this division performing? How much money am I spending on Meta Ray-Ban displays? What's the turn rate? Who are our biggest partners?

• 56:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 56:06John Coogan?

  There's a million questions.

• 56:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we're joking around, but. Z Stack does make sense.

• 56:12John Coogan?

  It does make sense.

• 56:12Jordi Hays?

  You should be able to have God mode.

• 56:14John Coogan?

  Yeah. And I mean, this, this has the, the, I, there are, there are companies that are starting to do this where they're, they're pitching their, you know, agent stacks for CEOs. Boardy is sort of one version of that, right? But there, there's, there's more and more people that are like, okay, we will come in and fine tune something for your organization specifically. And maybe do that on the fly. Maybe that's just chat GPT enterprise or Anthropic enterprise or whatever. But Zuck clearly wants something built from the ground up. And it's also a great, great product demo, because if it works really well for him, then it can probably, the lessons and the learnings from there will probably apply to other people in the ecosystem. So, the agent which is still in development is currently

• 56:58John Coogan?

  helping Zuckerberg get information faster, for instance, by retrieving answers for him that he would typically have to go through layers of people to get. Zuckerberg's agent project reflects a drive across the seven, 78,000 person company to accelerate the pace of work, eliminate layers from its organizational structure and change the day-to-day jobs of its employees to remain competitive with AI native startups with much smaller staffs. The company views AI adoption as critical to the future of success. Zuckerberg has been spending more time coding recently. He previewed some of the efforts at the company's earnings call in January. Quote, "We are investing in AI native tooling so individuals at Meta can get more done. We're elevating individual contributors and flattening teams," he said.

• 57:43John Coogan?

  "If we do this, then I think we're going to get a lot more done. And I think it'll be a lot more fun." I love that. We have our guests in the restream waiting room, I believe. First, let me tell you about Plaid. Plaid powers the app to use to spend, save, borrow, and invest. Securely connecting bank accounts to improve money, fight fraud, and improve lending now with AI. And let me also tell you about Gem and i3.1 Pro with a more capable baseline. It's great for super complex tasks like visualizing difficult concepts, synthesizing data into a single view, or bringing creative projects to life. And without further ado, let's kick off the peptide debate. Welcome to the stream, guys. How are you guys doing?

• 58:25Martin Shkreli?

  Hey, how's it going?

• 58:26John Coogan?

  Thank you so much for taking the time. Why don't you both start with an introduction on yourself and maybe your core thesis around peptides? Martin, why don't you go first?

• 58:38Martin Shkreli?

  Max, please. Okay, sure.

• 58:40John Coogan?

  Let's start with Martin.

• 58:41Martin Shkreli?

  Yep, so I'm the pharma bro. I represent the interests and the, I don't know, I guess, viewpoint of the pharmaceutical industry, including, but not limited to Pfizer, Merck, Eli Lilly, et cetera. I'm sure those guys love that. You're the face of pharma, whether they like it or not. There you go. Sort of a self-trained bio-pharmaceutical expert. I think I can speak at a pretty high level about every inch of the pharmaceutical industry. I've discovered brand-new drugs, I've acquired drugs, I've commercialized drugs, just about anything you can do in the drug industry, I've done it. And so, I'm very concerned about the peptide craze.

• 59:24Martin Shkreli?

  I think it comes mostly out of psychological issues, which we'll discuss, the need for identity, control, distrust of institutions, all kinds of things like that are leading to what we're seeing today.

• 59:40John Coogan?

  Great. And Max?

• 59:42Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Max, former peptide skeptic turned peptide believer. I run a healthcare company called Superpower, and our thesis is that the health system today does a good job when you're sick. It doesn't do a fantastic job at preventing things and actually allowing people to be their best selves. I say a former peptide skeptic because they seem scary, and I say a converted believer because I spoke to dozens of doctors and heard hundreds of clinical vignettes from people who had their lives changed. Now, I don't believe all peptides are safe. I do believe we need more research, but I think there are a subset of things that have improved people's lives.

• 1:00:27Speaker 04

  I also think as a modality, peptides are one that are more interesting than before now that injecting is normal, now that wellness and optimization is normal, not just treating disease, and now that we have AI for things like computational discovery. So, we're early, we need more research, but I think peptides are exciting.

• 1:00:47John Coogan?

  Martin, I'll let you just respond.

• 1:00:49Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49John Coogan?

  It seems like you have something on your mind. But it would be useful to at least define the the conversation a little bit more because when we say peptides, we could mean Ozempic prescribed by a doctor for someone who has diabetes and is very overweight. It could also mean the Wolverine stack taken by a 15 year old in a gym in Miami, right? And like, there's a wide gap here, so let's maybe narrow it down a little bit to probably off-label use. I don't know exactly where where the where things start to get fuzzy for you guys, but defining a little bit more of where the actual point of debate, because I imagine that there's agreement with the extremes.

• 1:01:32Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah, I mean, isn't there a problem when we have to redefine semantics that have been defined forever?

• 1:01:37John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:38Martin Shkreli?

  Isn't this like, somebody saying, you know, I'm using, you know, GPT instead of using AI or something like that?

• 1:01:45John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:01:45Martin Shkreli?

  Like, there's a specific meaning, like peptide has this very specific meaning, and they're not new. They're 80 years old, people have been using peptides forever. And in fact, in pharma, you try to avoid peptides because of their inherent weaknesses. You go for small molecules or really large molecules like antibodies. Peptides are sort of the worst of both worlds. So the idea that we've taken this kind of like, last place drug class, and then turn that into like, the the standard bearer for do-it-yourself medicine is is kind of humorous to anybody who actually understands pharma.

• 1:02:19Speaker 04

  Except that the last, the last drug class has the potentially most impactful drug of all time, or set of drugs of all time, the GLP-1 receptor agonists. So I'm not saying we only have peptides in the toolkit. I'm saying the genie's out of the bottle, and we cannot ignore peptides as a tool in the toolkit. Small molecules, just like, I guess framing framing it for people who don't kind of understand the difference between these things. Small molecules are made synthetically. Peptides tend to be derived from what already is happening in the body. Right? DNA is the building block of the body, and encodes for RNA, which produces proteins and peptides. So these peptides naturally occur. Now, can some of them Be hard to patent a naturally occurring thing. You can, but it's a little bit harder.

• 1:03:00Speaker 04

  Small molecules, on the other hand, are things that humans designed to block biology, to block, typically block something that is happening in the body. Yeah, I'm not saying small molecules are bad, but they're they're kind of the the two different modalities we're talking about here. And we've seen one category of peptides, GLP-1 has already changed the world. And my contention is that there are other categories of peptides that are under researched, but have really interesting kind of clinical vignettes that might change the world going forward.

• 1:03:28Jordi Hays?

  But but the but the but I think like why we're having this conversation is because people are just, you know, injecting a number of them into themselves now. And you're saying they might change the world, but people are going through the process of self experimentation. And there's a bunch of companies, private companies, that are happily facilitating this and and profiting off of it when it seems to be a large number of risks that are still unknown. At least that's my my point of view.

• 1:04:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's right. So maybe maybe let's start with uh uh stuff that's not fully FDA approved. I think the canonical example would be like the Chinese peptides, the retas, the stuff you buy online and inject. And it's based on some interesting scientific literature, but it hasn't actually been through the full FDA process yet. Where do both of you stand on that?

• 1:04:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, why why do you have a right to pirate somebody's intellectual property? You know, this this is this is the property of Eli Lilly. They discovered it. They spent billions of dollars on it. You want to steal it? You want to work with a Chinese company stealing it? I mean, that's not good for America. That's not good for the drug industry. And guess where these where do these drugs come from? They come from American R and D labs. And if you keep stealing them and pirating them.

• 1:04:50Martin Shkreli?

  In this like weird Twilight like, you know, DIY drug system, which is not very large, at least compared to pharma, you know, I don't know if you make a big impact, but if it went very large scale, you would. I mean, you would stop having drugs, the same way pirating music would, you know, have huge ramifications for the music ecosystem. So you have to respect intellectual property to some extent. And then taking a retinotrite, which is just sort of a GLP plus, if you will, instead of just waiting it for it to be FDA approved, or like, using Ozempic, I think this is like the worst risk reward decision you could possibly make. It's like some of the decisions I used to make in the

• 1:05:30Martin Shkreli?

  past. You know, what is your upside to, to taking illegally manufactured retinotrite from some other place and you can't verify it, et cetera, versus just taking Ozempic? The people that are take peptides and have these peptide stacks are mostly people in SF, maybe New York, they're very wealthy people, they don't know what the rest of the world looks like. Nobody else in middle America is excited to do this. It's not normal, Max, to inject yourself with things. You know, this isn't like a thing everyone should be doing. And so, to me, the retinotrite case is really insane, because this is a drug that Eli Lilly is going to get approved eventually. And, and the fact that, you know,

• 1:06:11Martin Shkreli?

  there are people dying of certain terrible diseases, and they need compassionate use. They need to get on extension programs. But nobody needs retinotrite now, right now, before FDA approval.

• 1:06:23Speaker 04

  I think we agree on this. So I think the things we agree on are that the existing FDA approved GLP-1 receptor agonists are an interesting category of drug, and they're a peptide, and they're impactful. I think we also agree that companies should not do things illegally and infringe on the patent for Reto, right? I do think the patent system incentivizes innovation. I think the crux of where we disagree is not, and just quickly on the, this is the SF thing, that is not true. If you speak, I know dozens of people who own these research use companies, and if you speak to them, the majority of their audience is middle America, not, not SF tech bros, despite the tech bros being noisy on Twitter. I think the crux of where we probably disagree is the 14 or so peptides that RFK has said they might move from category one, two, meaning they cannot be compounded,

• 1:07:05Speaker 04

  back to category one, meaning they can be compounded. And I guess my like general statement here is that people are taking these compounds, right? They're already using them at scale. Right? And the way to minimize risk, the main way to minimize risk is to move them from category two to category one, right? To legalize them. Because the risky thing is the dodgy supply chain we have today. The risky thing-

• 1:07:29Jordi Hays?

  Well, isn't the, isn't the risk, isn't, isn't the risky thing just doing like massive sort of unofficial, you know, human trials when we don't know?

• 1:07:38Speaker 04

  No, I, I don't think so. So I think, I think that is true for peptides that we do not have longitudinal clinical experience and patient experience with. But let's take something like BPC157, which is one of the most controversial ones. So let's, let's go right to the meat of things. Let's take something like BPC157. My contention is that thousands of doctors prescribe this, they do, and have prescribed this for ten- You can't prescribe this drug! Uh, they give it to their patients, right? You can prescribe it to be semantics, give it to their patients. It's not a drug! Thousands do that.

• 1:08:16John Coogan?

  What?

• 1:08:17Speaker 04

  My statement is not the semantics of prescribing. My statement is thousands do this. My other statement is that millions of patients have taken this. At least hundreds of thousands, I believe millions, have taken this.

• 1:08:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:28Speaker 04

  And that clinical experience, again, is not an RCT, but we cannot ignore it. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. You can absolutely ignore it.

• 1:08:36John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. Wait, wait, wait. It, it sounds like there's some sort of fundamental disagreement here about like the way BPC157 is being distributed right now because I know people that have told me that they've taken it. I thought that they were getting it prescribed or recommended to them. Like, Martin, what is your-

• 1:08:52Jordi Hays?

  We can agree that it's being given to them.

• 1:08:55John Coogan?

  I think, I think they're getting it, but what's actually, what's actually happening here? How is this happening?

• 1:09:00Jordi Hays?

  It's being, out, out in the back alley. They meet in the back alley.

• 1:09:04John Coogan?

  It doesn't seem like that. It seems like, it seems like there are doctors that do have the ability to-

• 1:09:08Speaker 04

  There are many of the best doctors in the world. So when I was first introduced to peptides, one of the most esteemed doctors in the US said to me, Max, you take so many supplements. Have you explored peptides? Because I think they're a really interesting modality with a few decades of clinical use.

• 1:09:20John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:09:21Speaker 04

  Right? And I, when he said that to me, I was like, no way. This is, this is bullshit. I'm not injecting myself with something. That was weird. So what I did is I went around to around 20 different doctors whose- Should have trusted your gut. Whose, whose, whose, whose opinions I respect. And I asked them about peptides. And normally, when you ask these doctors about anything, you ask them about red meat, you ask them about spinach, they're all divided. They're all like, one view, another view, punches with peptides. Just about all of them, except one, said these are really interesting. I have used these in my patients.

• 1:09:51John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:09:52Speaker 04

  I believe the endogenous molecules, peptides that exist in our body are going to be the future of medicine. And those doctors have the incentive to not be wrong. If they're wrong, they could go to jail. If they're wrong, they can have their license stripped. If they're wrong, patients don't come back to them. So they have the maximum incentive. And for 10 to 20 years, they still give this to their patients, and their patients say my life changed. Now, you might say it's placebo. My statement is, the patient says their life changes, and the doctor sees that.

• 1:10:17John Coogan?

  Okay, Martin, I want you to react, but but I also want you to to sort of set aside the intellectual property argument. I I like that argument, but let's focus on the the what doctors are doing, how BPCY157 is being delivered, that type of thing.

• 1:10:31Martin Shkreli?

  So so I'm a drug hunter, right? People like me, Vivek Ramaswamy, we look all around the world for medicine to buy and medicine to put into companies that great firms like A16Z and Founders Fund and other more healthcare maybe focused firms will fund, take it to the IPO, which I've done before, and get paid huge amounts of money. That's what I do. That's what I'm good at. That's why I'm the farmer bro. BPC157 is the biggest scam I've ever seen. It does absolutely nothing. There is no redeemable value to this. Do you know the story about it? Do you guys know?

• 1:11:00John Coogan?

  No, please tell us.

• 1:11:02Martin Shkreli?

  This guy in Croatia made it, Sichic, my my hinterland brother. And, you know, the only publications about this drug are by him. Nobody else has published about this drug. It's it's not a drug, in fact. Nobody's even confirmed that it it's a peptide from the gastric juice, as he claimed. Nobody can find a sequence that matches that, and the gastric juice of human beings has been thoroughly profiled. It's it's a 15-mer peptide, so it's 15 amino acids. Half-life is minutes. There's no plausible physiological basis for it to work. And it's it's been in clinical trials. Pleva was a local drug company in the Balkans, very well respected, my ad.

• 1:11:44Martin Shkreli?

  We've actually licensed BPC and tried to do clinical trials for it. And guess what? They failed. So this like weird like

• 1:11:53John Coogan?

  So do you think it's placebo effect? Do you think it's placebo effect? Because yeah, I've talked to people that say it's good for recovery. And I can imagine if you're sticking yourself with something, you might feel like, ah, I'm less sore today.

• 1:12:04Martin Shkreli?

  Because it's just While you are recovering, you think that the drug is helping you. And of course it isn't. It's the recovery process you're going through. And there's an app for this. If you want to make real money, go make BPC in CGMP conditions and go do a clinical trial. And you can be a trillion dollar company like Eli Lilly. Instead, you can putz around, you know, buying fake Chinese stuff and then injecting yourself and dreaming that you're doing well. I have a drug here that if I take might also aid my recovery.

• 1:12:31John Coogan?

  No, no, no.

• 1:12:33Martin Shkreli?

  Should I try this? Should I tell you that it worked for me? Is it N of one? Oh, my God, I did so great with this N of one. Uh, you know, it healed my recovery. Like, this is nonsense. This is not science. Science is controlled experiments that are well done, very carefully documented and so forth. Why are we going backwards? Why do we go forwards in civilization and society? What is this urge by the valley, and I blame the valley, to go backwards in time and space?

• 1:13:03Speaker 04

  I hear your view, and I think other people have it. And we don't know whether these are placebo or not yet. We can't make a definitive statement. And we don't have the RCT.

• 1:13:10Jordi Hays?

  Wait, but I thought you said there was studies done on BBC 157.

• 1:13:17Speaker 04

  No, there are no human studies done.

• 1:13:20Martin Shkreli?

  There was one done by Pleva and it failed.

• 1:13:23Speaker 04

  Okay, one study. There are dozens of studies of drugs that become commercialized that previously failed. Anyway, my view is we don't know whether it's placebo or not yet. That is true. And some people say it's placebo. Some will say it's not. My statement is really simple, which is you can have Martin's view. Or you can have the view of thousands of doctors who have used this for ten to twenty years and have their license in the line. The view of millions of patients who talk about their lives changing. You can have that view. My dad's visiting from Australia and he's been taking painkillers for the past four months and can't walk upstairs because his back is bad. He took BBC one five seven for three days and he said to me, Max, this is the first time in four months I haven't taken a painkiller. Again, I'm not saying this isn't placebo, I'm saying we don't know. What I'm saying is, I am God, I'm really happy my dad's not on a painkiller.

• 1:14:07Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Speaker 04

  Right? My co-founder, he lost three organs in hospital, he had an autoimmune disease, they put him in biologics. He took BBC one five seven, he's off biologics and he doesn't have an autoimmune disease anymore. Again, we need the study. We will put our money where our mouth is and fund the studies.

• 1:14:22Martin Shkreli?

  Put your money where your mouth is, exactly.

• 1:14:24Speaker 04

  But we can't ignore the real world evidence.

• 1:14:26Martin Shkreli?

  Well, you are ignoring it if you're not putting your money where your mouth is. If you believe that's true.

• 1:14:31Speaker 04

  We are.

• 1:14:31Martin Shkreli?

  No, no, no.

• 1:14:32Speaker 04

  We are.

• 1:14:32Martin Shkreli?

  Do a clinical trial.

• 1:14:34Speaker 04

  We are.

• 1:14:35Martin Shkreli?

  Tell me about it.

• 1:14:36Speaker 04

  We're in the process of chatting with the people required to set up a clinical trial for this. Because we will put our money where our mouth is. Because I've seen thousands of doctors, millions of patients, and even the FDA, right? Who have said they're gonna start legal license, even the FDA.

• 1:14:50Martin Shkreli?

  Okay.

• 1:14:51Speaker 04

  But Max. You can have your view and I don't, that's okay. People will have that view. I will have an opposite view and I'll put my money where my mouth is.

• 1:14:56Martin Shkreli?

  Max, you've never done a clinical trial before, right? You've never invested in drug companies before, but you want to do your first clinical trial on this drug, which you did in an event, you know, you've heard anecdotal evidence about. Why?

• 1:15:10Speaker 04

  Because I have seen thousands of doctors, millions of patients, over one to two decades, right? Go say to my friend, go back on biologics, go back to hospital, lose another organ. Go say to my dad, go back on painkillers every single day. I don't want my dad on painkillers every single day. Now, you might say that's placebo, I say I don't know, but I say with the evidence that we currently have, I believe there is more.

• 1:15:35Martin Shkreli?

  You should see what this Galaxy Gas does for me, it's amazing.

• 1:15:40John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:15:40Martin Shkreli?

  It's really good.

• 1:15:41Jordi Hays?

  But what's your question? Is your question, Martin, more that like, okay, you?

• 1:15:45Martin Shkreli?

  No pharma guy in their right mind would do this.

• 1:15:48John Coogan?

  Hold on, hold on. So no pharma guy would do it. Max clearly believes in this. And what is the intersection of these two things? Is it possible to do the type of study that you're talking about with Silicon Valley backing? Is a $30 million Series A enough to get started? Or do you need to go to Wall Street IPO, do the biotech thing?

• 1:16:11Martin Shkreli?

  I mean, plenty of private, plenty of private companies do this. There's hundreds, if not, actually, I would say there's thousands of private biotechs. Generally, they would pass on something like this.

• 1:16:21Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, yeah. So why, so, so there's this body of anecdotal evidence.

• 1:16:28Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah, unpublished.

• 1:16:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so certainly a drug hunter, certainly a drug hunter would have looked at this already, right?

• 1:16:37Speaker 04

  Martin, as you're saying, the only admissible evidence is NARCT.

• 1:16:41Martin Shkreli?

  Yes.

• 1:16:42Speaker 04

  And what about all of the examples of when something works? Before anything works with NARCT, there's a time when it works pre-RCT.

• 1:16:50Martin Shkreli?

  Yes, in animals.

• 1:16:53Speaker 04

  No, in humans, there are times when before there's an RCT.

• 1:16:56Martin Shkreli?

  Yes, it does happen sometimes, yes.

• 1:16:58Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:16:58Martin Shkreli?

  They're intelligently, because they're intelligently designed drugs that were designed to do a specific thing. And they do the specific thing and then they work.

• 1:17:08Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. Yep.

• 1:17:09Martin Shkreli?

  This is not that.

• 1:17:10Speaker 04

  And you think your statement, your singular statement of placebo outweighs the, again, we don't know. But I'm saying on the facts we have today, there is more to support the fact this is more likely than not placebo.

• 1:17:23John Coogan?

  No, I would, I would bet anything. I would, I would bet anything. No trial of BPC would work.

• 1:17:28Speaker 04

  Okay, I guess we'll see.

• 1:17:30Jordi Hays?

  What else? So, so Max, are you, is superpower facilitating people getting BPC 157 today?

• 1:17:39Speaker 04

  No, we won't sell anything that is not legal to compound. But I believe the FDA will make it legal to compound soon. And then you'd be And I believe the FDA should make it legal to compound because the genie's out of the bottle. People have seen their lives changed and they're getting it anyway.

• 1:17:53Jordi Hays?

  What else, what else are, what else are you excited about? Because when people say, when people, people say peptides with an S.

• 1:18:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:00Jordi Hays?

  So BBC 157.

• 1:18:02Speaker 04

  Thymos now for one is fascinating. It proves in 35 countries. I take it and I never get sick. I used to get sick four, five times a year. I had the most elaborate immune stacks. None of those elaborate immune stacks, 100 things placebo me. Thymos now for one, everyone around me had COVID a few, few months back and I didn't get it. A bunch of people around me had influenza. I didn't get it. Every time I get a sore throat, I take BBC 157, Thymos now for one. And the sore throat disappears. Now, this is a drug that is approved in 35 countries, right? Has, has some, some human, human data. Now Pharma in the US hasn't, hasn't brought it through trials because they can't patent something that has existed for several years. So I think Thymos now for one is a really interesting one as well. Okay, Martin, your reaction?

• 1:18:45Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah. Well, drug, drug companies can and do patent things that, that have existed before.

• 1:18:50Speaker 04

  I agree with that. I did not say that. I said Thymos now for one, in the form that is approved in other countries, they cannot patent.

• 1:18:56Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah, I mean, you don't even have to patent a drug, right? You, you can get seven years orphan exclusivity, five years of NCE exclusivity. There's a lot of ways to make money in pharma and pharma, if you haven't noticed.

• 1:19:07Speaker 04

  I agree with that. I agree that they could find some rare disease indication and use Thymos now for one against them and get a patent. My statement is that they could not get a composition of matter patented for Thymos now for one in the way that doctors and patients are using it today.

• 1:19:20Martin Shkreli?

  Sure. I mean, you, you can change molecules too. I mean, there, there's a lot of ways.

• 1:19:24Speaker 04

  I, I, I know. Why would they?

• 1:19:25Martin Shkreli?

  Do medicine.

• 1:19:26Speaker 04

  And so we're saying the machinery of the FDA requires something works. We see in 35 countries, the only way to get a patent is to change the molecule and spend 300 million to $3 billion. What is that? What is that for a system? Right? That's what's regulatory capture by pharma to me.

• 1:19:42Martin Shkreli?

  I, I wouldn't say that. Necessarily. I think that there are benefits to making drugs stronger. Like I said earlier, drugs, peptides are the weakest form of drug. They're not the-

• 1:19:53Speaker 04

  Except the best, maybe the best drug of all time is a peptide.

• 1:19:57Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah, but it's very, it's one of very few. I would say 5% of drugs by revenue.

• 1:20:02Speaker 04

  Today, today, right? Five years ago, we didn't even have GLP-1. 10 years ago, we didn't-

• 1:20:07Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah, peptides were, were and probably always will be a backwater just because they're, they're very weak. They have no pharmacological properties that are beneficial like, like a good half-life. And in fact, the naked peptide GLPs don't work either. They have to be heavily modified by pharmaceutical chemistry.

• 1:20:27Speaker 04

  We know this is not true. There's an FDA-approved peptide with a very short half-life, semirelin. Though most now for one has a very short half-life.

• 1:20:35Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah, no, no, no, there are drugs that can work.

• 1:20:37Speaker 04

  You don't need a long half-life to have an effect. We know this. We know this. The FDA knows. 35% of other countries know this.

• 1:20:42Martin Shkreli?

  There are some drugs that, that can work with short half-life, but almost every drug guy will tell you that you want a ha- a long half-life so you don't have to keep taking the drug. There are some drugs-

• 1:20:51Speaker 04

  Correct, and that is fine. And we, we have methods now with science to extend the half-life of these compounds, and that's part of where the research is going.

• 1:20:58Martin Shkreli?

  This is called pharmaceuticals.

• 1:21:00Speaker 04

  Yes, correct, correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:02Martin Shkreli?

  That's what the industry is. We have an FDA for it. We have all these rules for it, and I don't think we should change that. I mean, these are the, the things that have made American pharmaceuticals one of the greatest industries ever. To, to start to move away from evidence-based medicine is, is a, you know, is potentially a very risky and scary thing.

• 1:21:21Speaker 04

  I think the riskier thing is there being a gray market, because the genie's out of the bottle and people are getting these regardless. I think it's far safer to get them through GMP-certified compounding pharmacies in the way that the FDA has oversight over, rather than the state we're in today, which is the gray market. And this isn't a debate between no peptide and legal. It's a debate between gray market or white market, and I contend white market is net less harm, net higher benefit for the US people.

• 1:21:48Martin Shkreli?

  I think we should treat them like we treat. Controlled substances, right? I mean, why that there's a very specific set of laws that states what you're allowed to traffic on interstate commerce or not, and you need a BLA or an NDA or 505 B2 to traffic a drug across interstate commerce in the United States of America. And that that changing that I don't think is useful or helpful. No matter how many people on Reddit think that they want to play Dr. House today, that's not something that, you know, they should be engaged in.

• 1:22:19Speaker 04

  So this is why I think they need to be legalized, because I don't think what we have today is safe. I don't think people going to gray market pharmacies and injecting anything into their body is safe. What I do think is far safer and net lower harm and higher benefit the American people is these things being regulated in category one and produced in GMP certified facilities and prescribed by doctors. That is safer. So the net harm reducing case is making these category one illegal to be prescribed by doctors. Not all of them, but the ones where we have a sufficient safety signal and a sufficient effectiveness signal.

• 1:22:51Martin Shkreli?

  Well, we had there is an arbitrator for that already. It's called the FDA. I mean, why would you want a second, I guess, special like special ed version of the FDA for drugs that didn't quite make it so clearly efficacious?

• 1:23:06Speaker 04

  What I'm saying is many of these things the FDA might not ever want to research because the patent is hard, because they target wellness and prevention and human optimization rather than disease. And the FDA loves their cancer therapeutics. And my statement is if we have sufficient safety and efficacy signals, we reduce net harm by making them legal today, we reduce net harm, and try saying to the person who used to be in biologics with autoimmune disease, you have to wait 20 years for something that might never be researched by Big Pharma, right? Try saying to my daddy who was on painkillers for the past four months, every single day, that you know what, this compound you took for three days that has been used for two decades, go back to your painkillers. Try

• 1:23:50Speaker 04

  saying that to them. And maybe, maybe one day Pharma, maybe in 10, 15 years will research this. We don't even know. Say that to them.

• 1:23:57John Coogan?

  Martin, it sounds like.

• 1:24:01John Coogan?

  There's a sort of a mischaracterization of your argument that I'll let you push back on, that you're arguing that the FDA has no problems, that the FDA is perfectly efficient. And that seems crazy. I feel like everyone's upset with every aspect of the government all the time. Are you saying that the FDA is anywhere near approving, anywhere near to the speed required to approve new drugs, new research as quickly as they could?

• 1:24:32Martin Shkreli?

  I'd say they're pretty good.

• 1:24:33John Coogan?

  Really?

• 1:24:34Martin Shkreli?

  You know, I hate almost every part of the US government, but that's one I do like. And I advise the US government. And I feel like this is something that, you know, could not be further from our collective benefit. Companies love making money.

• 1:24:51Speaker 04

  You're saying you prefer the gray market?

• 1:24:54Martin Shkreli?

  No, I prefer no market.

• 1:24:56Speaker 04

  But we don't have the choice of no market.

• 1:24:58Martin Shkreli?

  Yes, we do.

• 1:24:58Speaker 04

  The genie is out of the bottle.

• 1:25:00Martin Shkreli?

  What does that mean?

• 1:25:00Speaker 04

  It's out of the bottle.

• 1:25:01Martin Shkreli?

  What does that mean, genie?

• 1:25:02Speaker 04

  What that means?

• 1:25:03Martin Shkreli?

  We can arrest the genie. We can give the genie cocaine.

• 1:25:05Speaker 04

  What that means is that people use these compounds. Doctors have prescribed these compounds, and they're doing everything they possibly can to get their hands on them. And that can be very risky. And what I'm saying is we have safety and efficacy signals in millions of patients, with thousands of doctors in 10 to 20 years.

• 1:25:21John Coogan?

  Yeah. So Max is arguing that like, a war on drugs will not work. It hasn't worked in the past. It is impossible to...

• 1:25:28Speaker 04

  Why would you have a war on peptides?

• 1:25:29John Coogan?

  No, no, no, because if it's gray market, that means illegal. Like, Martin is arguing that we can arrest the genie, but can we, Martin? Can we actually arrest the genie? Because it seems like there's a lot of genies. And you had a product behind you that I think might be not legal either. And that was probably available in a corner store. And I know that there are dozens of illegal flavored e-cigarettes and vaporizers that come over, and they make their way into bodegas all over the United States. And like, this just happens.

• 1:26:00Speaker 04

  And those things are provably harmful. And they still, the provably harmful things do it. I'm saying these things, doctors have their license on the line, and they still recommend them.

• 1:26:07Martin Shkreli?

  I don't think doctors want to recommend peptides. I don't think... Doctors like recommending non FDA approved drugs. I I've never met one that did.

• 1:26:15Speaker 04

  Well, I know thousands of doctors who do, and I'm saying.

• 1:26:17Martin Shkreli?

  Thousands of doctors? I don't know thousands of doctors. I spent my whole life in medicine.

• 1:26:21Jordi Hays?

  Thousands is such a big number.

• 1:26:21John Coogan?

  So many doctors.

• 1:26:23Speaker 04

  And and what I'm saying is, I agree, they shouldn't recommend things gray market. What I'm saying is let's legalize because that is net safer for the American people.

• 1:26:31John Coogan?

  Yes, yes. And Martin, you're saying that you're saying that you can win. You're saying you're saying that that if we hang out in the gray market, you think it's actually possible to shut down gray market activity. Is that true?

• 1:26:43Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah, I think you can shut it down. And then I also think that we have a perfectly great system, which is the normal regulatory body we've had for 60 years.

• 1:26:52John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:26:52Martin Shkreli?

  And creating, like I said, a new special ed version of it for drugs that couldn't quite get on the school bus.

• 1:26:59John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:26:59Martin Shkreli?

  You know, is not something that we should do because we have a rigorous way to determine if drugs work or not.

• 1:27:04Speaker 04

  Let's get rid of all gray market. And my friend can go back and buy Logix. May that go back and painkillers.

• 1:27:12Martin Shkreli?

  You should.

• 1:27:14Speaker 04

  All of the farmer can continue making hundreds of thousands of dollars from these biologics. Let's do that. Sure. And you know what? We're not going to shut that. But you get what I'm saying?

• 1:27:23Jordi Hays?

  Closing arguments. One more thing. So so Martin, your stance is generally that these drugs just haven't proven to be that good. They've been around for long enough that a bunch of smart pharma bros and sisters would have like, you know, taken them through trials already if they really showed.

• 1:27:39Martin Shkreli?

  We take a lot of bad stuff through trials. You know, BPC isn't even, doesn't even come close to the muster of of a pharma bro.

• 1:27:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Okay. And so so it's it's it's weak. You're saying there's a placebo that you think is probably real. But then what is the what is the risk, right? Because if somebody's saying like, okay, it's a weak drug, I maybe get a placebo effect, maybe, maybe, maybe it just helps. But why should somebody? Avoid these. Avoid it entirely, regardless of if they're available on the gray market or on this like, you know, new version of the FDA.

• 1:28:13Martin Shkreli?

  I just think we should normalize making drugs in your bathtub. I think that, you know, there's, there's no evidence that any of these things are well made. I think we should leave medicine to the experts. I think that's something SV is very reluctant to do. Many people want to feel in a world where maybe they feel like they're losing control. They want to control this thing or the world where we're losing confidence in government. We want to take this into our own hands and it's just not the way to do things. Medicine has progressed dramatically thanks to the capitalist system and the biopharmaceutical system in league with the FDA, which doesn't always get it right, but is, is quite good. And, you know, thanks to that, we have drugs for cystic fibrosis. We have a cure for cystic fibrosis. We have drugs for SMA. We have these terrible diseases.

• 1:28:57Martin Shkreli?

  And one last thing is that a lot of these people in SV, you're perfectly healthy. You know, you're, you're talking about two sick people there a second ago, but most of the people I know on these peptides, they're taking a modafinil, they're taking drugs for diseases they don't have. And this is not, you know, the, the, a great use of people's time or, or, or great for their health. And in some, some, to some extent, the government does exist to help protect people from themselves and their own stupidity.

• 1:29:23Jordi Hays?

  And then Max, you're planning to take BBC 157 through clinical trials. Are you planning to take any of these other peptides through?

• 1:29:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:36Jordi Hays?

  And then what is the, where, where does that ultimately, where does that ultimately go?

• 1:29:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we're, we're working with a handful of different biotech companies that are taking these through clinical trials. We're in the early days of, of setting that up. And my, my statement is not anti FDA or anti the machinery we have. I think it solves a lot of purposes. I just think it doesn't solve all purposes. And my statement is not that the current system is always perfectly right. I think when new data comes along, when new science comes along, when there's a dangerous gray market, we need to accept that the times have changed and adapt the regulation. It has serves a lot of purposes. There are many parts of it that are exceptional, but it is not complete.

• 1:30:23Speaker 04

  And I'm saying that we should do what the FDA has said they're doing, which is legalize several of the category two peptides that have the strongest safety and efficacy signals because that reduces net harm for patients and increases net benefit, even if pharma doesn't necessarily like it because they're not making money from their $100,000 biologic drug anymore.

• 1:30:45John Coogan?

  Sure. Martin, any closing statements? It's been great.

• 1:30:49Martin Shkreli?

  Yeah, I just want to say pharma did try to develop BPC and failed.

• 1:30:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, okay, we went through that. It's a good point. Well, thank you so much for joining today. Thank you to you both. Everyone had a great time.

• 1:31:00Jordi Hays?

  Good job keeping it civil, boys.

• 1:31:02John Coogan?

  Very civil.

• 1:31:03Jordi Hays?

  Very civil, very professional.

• 1:31:05John Coogan?

  Again, again, the next time a new peptide goes viral, we'd love to have you both on the show, independently or together. Have a great rest of your day, have a great week, and we will talk to you soon.

• 1:31:15Jordi Hays?

  Great stuff.

• 1:31:15John Coogan?

  Goodbye.

• 1:31:16Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.

• 1:31:17John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about console.com. Console builds AI agents that automate 70% of IT, HR, and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. And let me also tell you about Vanta Automate Compliance and Security. Vanta is the leading AI trust management platform. Up next, we have Mitchell Green, the founder and managing partner at Lead Edge Capital. The news, Lead Edge has closed a $3.5 billion, seven fund.

• 1:31:43Jordi Hays?

  What's going on, Mitchell? Great to see you.

• 1:31:45Mitchell Green?

  I was live. By the way, somebody likes Diet Coke. I like Coke Zero. I got Coke Zero better.

• 1:31:51Jordi Hays?

  Coke Zero guy, Coke Zero. Did you go through a Diet Coke phase?

• 1:31:55Mitchell Green?

  I did in the, I did back in the day, and then Coke Zero came out and I started drinking that. I'm pretty sure both of them are going to kill us, but that's fine.

• 1:32:02Jordi Hays?

  Well, you and John are running the A B test. I'm having the podcast in a can from Andrew Huberman. Congrats on the new fund. Big, big number. Take us through it.

• 1:32:14Mitchell Green?

  Yeah, so no, it's good. So it's just a continuation of Fund Six, you know, Fund Seven, three and a half billion. We really raised it late last fall, raised it, raised it late last fall. But no, it was, it was good. We really didn't know what to expect about the fundraising market. Everybody had said it'd been really, really hard, but then you see these big giant funds get raised. And so, no, we had a lot of interest from existing LPs and some new LPs and things like that.

• 1:32:51Jordi Hays?

  What is contrarian about Lead Edge's stance as a fund or messaging to LPs? You know, this is a software-focused fund. Some people, at least on X, would say you guys are crazy to have that positioning. But certainly, the results have been fantastic.

• 1:33:12Mitchell Green?

  Yeah, and look, prior history means something about the future as well. I think the things that make us contrarian and like different in the world. One, our LP base and how unique it is. We have all these like, you know, well, we do have big institutions. Ninety-five percent of our capital comes from people that are like, you know, world-class execs and entrepreneurs. You guys probably had a bunch of our LPs on the show. You could look at our website and see examples of a bunch of these people. And then how we leverage these people throughout the investment lifecycle, whether they help with diligence, whether they help with, you know, helping customer intros, recruiting, advisory for companies. I think that makes us different than most people.

• 1:33:55Mitchell Green?

  What we invest in is, you know, look, we just take a very focused approach and we're just like, listen, you have to meet X number of our eight criteria, five criteria. And now it's like, are you 25 million and are you 10 million plus in revenue? Well, you're growing 25% a year. Are you profitable? You know, are your revenues greater than your historical cash burn cumulatively? Like, and again, you have to meet five of the eight. And that just, that kills a lot of companies we might otherwise, you know, see. And again, we just find companies that meet those criteria. And so, you know, the first couple of deals in the fund, you know, without naming the companies,

• 1:34:36Mitchell Green?

  you know, one is a $500 million, you know, last year did 500 million of ARR software business, growing 50-plus percent a year. We funded another private equity fund that owned it. They're like continuation vehicle because what makes us concern is we're very unique in that way. We're like, we'll buy 10% of a company in a minority deal, put money in the balance sheet, we'll buy, you know, secondary from an early investor, we'll buy 80% of the company, you know, we'll do everything. It's really kind of just, we just want to get into the best businesses. And look, we invest in businesses that grow, that have super high gross margin, that have

• 1:35:17Mitchell Green?

  70-plus percent gross margins, that are hopefully capital efficient, that have like really happy customers with high gross dollar retention. Software is one of those buckets.

• 1:35:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:28Mitchell Green?

  As well as, you know, financial information technology companies, information services companies, payments businesses, internet marketplaces, we've invested in logistics businesses. If it meets the criteria, we'll invest. There are still, you know, the whole idea that software is all going to zero is a bunch of complete utter nonsense.

• 1:35:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, we were talking to Carl Eschenbach on the day he rejoined Sequoia last Thursday about the SaaS apocalypse and he was just stressing the fact of how sticky these relationships are and the fact that people buy things from other people. They're not just going to overnight switch everything and how they do their business. What are you actually seeing? How have you processed the SaaS apocalypse? Have you processed this idea of all these legacy systems just being upended overnight?

• 1:36:21Mitchell Green?

  I mean, it's like complete utter nonsense. I'll see him in a board meeting, actually. That's great. I think we're fine. I think I'm literally gonna go back with him from the board meeting. No, he's fantastic. Let's not forget that the US government still runs, I think, like, I think we think the huge opportunity. We do some public stuff as well, actually. Own Workday. And by the way, I think a 99% gross dollar retention business. The US government still runs on PeopleSoft. And most banks that people use in America run off of mainframe computers. Yeah. So, you know, open source, when people say the apocalypse, SPOCLX, all software is going to zero.

• 1:37:04Mitchell Green?

  I think what people fundamentally get wrong is is that they think like R and D is the is like the most important thing in these companies, like writing the code. Yeah. It hasn't been for decades. Like, open source software is a big industry. Yeah. Companies like Gafana, Databricks, Elastic, HashyCorp, Red Hat, there's 20 more of them. You can get that stuff for free. Yeah. The reason that enterprises pay for it is they need somebody to deal with, with, you know, customer support, security patches, user authentication. Stuff's like very complicated to do. I think, I think with software companies are gonna become, and by the way, there's, there's gonna be ones that survive, and there's gonna be ones that don't.

• 1:37:49Mitchell Green?

  All that we see, you see in periods of technological change is like, things can happen really fast. And it's not only software companies, it's like automotive companies. If you're Stellantis and you have tons of debt, and you're, I'm totally making this up, and you're Ford and you have no debt. Well, if you believe AI and robotics are gonna come to manufacturing, well, like, Ford can invest, Stellantis cannot. And like, they very well may disrupt, you know, Ford may completely disrupt Stellantis. It's gonna happen across industries here. By the way, you saw it 99 and 2000 with like, you know, e-commerce companies. Some traditional retailers like Walmart and Home Depot did great. Some people did not.

• 1:38:28Mitchell Green?

  The same thing is gonna happen with, you know, with software companies. By the way, the same thing is gonna happen with accounting firms. The same thing is gonna happen with banks.

• 1:38:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:35Mitchell Green?

  Like, this stuff is gonna completely revolutionize the world. It won't do it as fast as people think. It was funny, I, I asked Claude yesterday to try to like book me like an appointment, like I, to get a haircut and I could do it online. It had no idea how to do it. Like, I, I, you know, literally could have just picked up the phone and made a phone call and, you know, I saved myself fifteen minutes.

• 1:38:54John Coogan?

  Yeah. What, what has your interaction been with private credit throughout your career? There's a lot of headlines around the, the debt load for some of these software companies and if the business model changes, if that retention does shift, that those private credit funds could be in trouble. Have you been processing the stories around?

• 1:39:12Mitchell Green?

  Yeah, so, look, about a third of what we do is controlled buyouts.

• 1:39:16John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:39:17Mitchell Green?

  A buyout tends to have debt on it.

• 1:39:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:19Mitchell Green?

  Um, you know, that be, you know, what I would say is, now again, the buyouts we're doing are not big enough and they tend to be growth buyouts. Like, our average portfolio company grows fifty percent a year. So we might just happen to find a company that's twenty-five revenue owned by, owned by one guy that wants to sell sixty percent of his company, but still wants to run it. So we're not, our deals are not big enough where we need to go to the private credit funds. I agree with Jamie Dimon though, but it's a generic coal mine, but it's not software.

• 1:39:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:50Mitchell Green?

  This is what people are getting wrong.

• 1:39:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:52Mitchell Green?

  You don't think the private equity firms overpaid for industrial companies or services companies?

• 1:39:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:57Mitchell Green?

  Or anything like, I tend to believe where AI is gonna be disruptive is if a private equity firm bought a company, put a ton of leverage on it, and it's been running it for margin because they need to drive margins to pay the debt load because they put too much debt on it. They won't be able to innovate. So their competitor that doesn't have a lot of debt is going to, um, you know, could win. I think that is, that isn't applied to software companies, that applies to everything.

• 1:40:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:24Mitchell Green?

  Um, I suspect that we're in an, in any unregulated industry where you take a bunch of people with the Wall Street. A bunch of people have done probably stupid things. It's probably not the people getting blamed for it. It's probably the ones doing the blaming, frankly. Um, if you've got to learn, you know, from, uh, from history on Wall Street.

• 1:40:44John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:40:45Mitchell Green?

  Um.

• 1:40:46John Coogan?

  You're a business now.

• 1:40:47Mitchell Green?

  But again, it's, it's the private credit guys get paid like they're gonna get, they'll get paid before the private equity funds. Like I think we're gonna sit here in 2030 and there're gonna be a ton of these deals that were done in 2019, 2018, 2020, 2021. That Scrooge software eats like everybody at all the industries where like you're gonna be looking at like very low, single digit, you know, low, single digit IRRs.

• 1:41:12John Coogan?

  What's the, what's the oldest company you've ever bought or, or invested in? Have you ever looked at anything that's like over 50 years old or? I mean, I've just seen some of these like.

• 1:41:21Mitchell Green?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:41:22John Coogan?

  That are like, you know, oh, you'll see like AOL is transacting now and we're, and I'm like, oh, we haven't heard that name in a long.

• 1:41:30Jordi Hays?

  We can hear you.

• 1:41:30John Coogan?

  That's only 30.

• 1:41:31Mitchell Green?

  Well, I'm actually, I'm looking to see what a company. Okay. Yeah. So we own a business.

• 1:41:36John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:41:36Mitchell Green?

  Um, called Growth Zone.

• 1:41:39John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:41:39Mitchell Green?

  That makes like Chamber of Commerce Association Management Software. To do business, nicely profitable. Um, we, the company was founded in 1996.

• 1:41:50John Coogan?

  1996. Okay.

• 1:41:51Mitchell Green?

  So we own, we own another, we own another business. Um, that it's like that business started in 96, it's a different name. In 2019, it was bought by like a small private equity fund. We then bought that. Um, but um, we own a business, um, that we bought through an interest in a fund called, um, Work Human. This is a huge business, super profitable, big company.

• 1:42:19Jordi Hays?

  That's an anti AGI, AGI bet.

• 1:42:22Mitchell Green?

  Yeah. And so Work Human used to be called Global Force. It's a big like HR software company.

• 1:42:27John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:42:28Mitchell Green?

  Um, and like a play benefits company based up in Boston. But I think the venture fund we bought out.

• 1:42:36Mitchell Green?

  It was like a 2002 vintage venture fund.

• 1:42:38John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:42:39Mitchell Green?

  And the investment was made in like 2004.

• 1:42:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:42Mitchell Green?

  And the company has never raised capital since.

• 1:42:44John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 1:42:44Mitchell Green?

  And it's a very large, you know, nine-figure type like business.

• 1:42:48John Coogan?

  That's remarkable. Uh, well, thanks so much for taking the time to come and hang out. Congratulations. Great to see you. We gotta hit the gong. Hit it.

• 1:43:00John Coogan?

  Congrats to the whole team.

• 1:43:01Mitchell Green?

  See ya, guys.

• 1:43:02John Coogan?

  Great to see you. We'll see you soon. Cheers. Goodbye. Let me tell you about Labelbox. RL Environment's voice robotics evals and expert human data. Labelbox is the data factory behind the world's leading AI teams. And let me also tell you about Sentry. Sentry shows developers what's broken and helps them fix it fast. That's why 150,000 organizations use it to keep their apps working. And let's kick off our Lambda Lightning Round. And we are going to be bringing in. We nailed it. We nailed it. The cloud is active. We are now in the Lambda Lightning Round. Let's bring in Shane from Air. Shane, how you doing?

• 1:43:36Speaker 06

  How you doing, guys? Thanks so much for having me.

• 1:43:38John Coogan?

  Of course, of course. Great to, great to see you. Uh, give us an update on what's going on in your world.

• 1:43:44Speaker 06

  We, um, just released a new ad campaign yesterday in the New York Times.

• 1:43:48John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:43:49Speaker 06

  Um, and have our, our biggest product release we've ever pulled together here launching tomorrow.

• 1:43:54John Coogan?

  Amazing. Give us the pitch. What's the tagline? For the ad. For the ad.

• 1:43:59Speaker 06

  The tagline for the ad is, uh, is AI will never smoke a cigarette with you. Um.

• 1:44:05John Coogan?

  As someone who, as someone who started a, a company that directly competes with cigarettes, I have to boo, but as someone who loves a good ad, I have to cheer.

• 1:44:14Speaker 06

  I, you know, I want to be clear. I'm not endorsing smoking in any way, shape or form.

• 1:44:18John Coogan?

  No, I get it.

• 1:44:18Speaker 06

  I think, um, you know, look, I feel like, I feel like this is a, this is a, this is a Good Will Hunting crowd, isn't it? I feel like you guys watch. Jordy definitely has seen Good Will Hunting.

• 1:44:26John Coogan?

  No. He's, he's, no, he's never seen a movie in his life. He's only seen Borat. It's the only movie he's ever seen.

• 1:44:32Speaker 06

  Well, I think, uh, the, the inspiration for the campaign came from, uh, a scene between Matt Damon, who's this cocky, overconfident, uh, sort of orphan and, uh, his therapist, Robin Williams.

• 1:44:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:46Speaker 06

  And, uh, they're sitting on a park bench.

• 1:44:51Speaker 06

  And Matt Damon is just going off. He's doing his thing, you know, preaching the gospel of where the world is going. And Robin Williams looks at him and he says, look, if I asked you about art, you would give me every history of every artist, you would talk to me about Michelangelo, but you have no idea of what it smells like below the Sistine Chapel. And if I asked you about love, you would probably send me a sauna. But you have no idea what it feels like to be desperately vulnerable in front of someone else. And then he looks at Matt Damon and he says, look, if I needed to learn what it was like to be an orphan, do you think I would just read Oliver Twist?

• 1:45:32Speaker 06

  And I think, I think the reality is today that there's so many of these generative AI companies right now emerging through Y C are starting to raise money and they're projecting what's going to happen with creative work. Uh, and, and let me be clear, I believe everything from Nano Banana and Seed Dancing, these models are so powerful in what they can do today. But the reality is that creative work is deeply illogical. It is two things. It is both extremely subjective and it starves for perfection all at the same time. And so, you know, the belief that we have at Air fundamentally is that AI will never replace creative work. And we're saying this as a technology company that's on the precipice, you know, of launching

• 1:46:16Speaker 06

  its most AI centric feature set ever tomorrow.

• 1:46:20John Coogan?

  So, I mean, I completely agree with you. Like AI is a tool. I've loved using creative tools from the first version of Photoshop that I probably downloaded illegally all the way to After Effects and Cinema 4D, Houdini, and now generative AI tools. And I feel like there's, it, it, every time there's a new tool, you just increase the amount of, uh, amount of art, the amount of creativity and things. We usually get the good ending. It feels like it. It feels like we're not, oh yeah, like we wish we could go back to the time before Photoshop, get rid of Figma, like, no, no one wants to move backwards. Everyone's happy with the tools. Everyone's adapted, but it feels like there's still a lot of anxiety, like.

• 1:47:00John Coogan?

  How, how, what do you think it takes to get people into the mindset of, hey, as an artist, your job's just going to get more interesting, more creative, you're going to be able to do so much more. And yes, that will mean putting food on your plate and earning recognition for your work and being, all the things that you, why you do what you do will still be there in a decade, two decades, a century.

• 1:47:22Speaker 06

  Yeah. Well, I think the first thing, John, is that as, as an industry, within the tech industry, or as technologists, we can't keep pontificating, you know, a narrative about like, about this reality that creative work is the CMO killer. If I see one more billboard on the 101 about the CMO killer, I'm gonna lose my mind.

• 1:47:42Jordi Hays?

  You're gonna become a killer yourself.

• 1:47:45Speaker 06

  I'm gonna lose my mind. And, and I think that, you know, in what way, shape, or form is it a good idea to tell your customer that they're irrelevant?

• 1:47:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:54Speaker 06

  Um, and, and, and, you know, look, the fundamental belief that we have here at Air is that the work is changing. It's going to be less humans and more machines. That's a, that's an acknowledgement that I will be the first to admit. But we have to stop imagining that these machines, this, this AGI concept we have for the future will get to a state where everything is automated and you don't need anybody in the loop. And instead, if we built both products and brands in this industry that meet humans where they are and start to actually attack jobs to be done with automation, then great. You know, at Air, we talk about giving creative space to breathe,

• 1:48:35Speaker 06

  space to actually work on the stuff that they think matters and to deploy technology into areas of their work that they think should be automated.

• 1:48:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:44Jordi Hays?

  What's the launch tomorrow? What's the exact product?

• 1:48:47Speaker 06

  Exact product. Alright, so five things. I'm gonna be plain vanilla here. Five things. One is access to 50 models inside of our product. Everything from Nano Banana to Z Dance, you can now access that directly on Air. Two, you can access those models through a Canvas editor. So you can grab your assets, which are already on Air. You can create variants of ad units. You can change out the text in something. You can take an image and turn it into a GIF for a quick video, whatever you need. Three is agents who can go out and make those edits for you, should you want to, you know, communicate with a machine instead of doing it yourself. Four is a context layer. This is the sort of biggest differentiator for us. We, you know,

• 1:49:30Speaker 06

  today, organizations store and manage all of their assets inside of our product. We're their memory. And so we're taking that memory and allowing your creative team to deploy that. Deploying the context means that the agents can start saying no to edits, or that when an agent makes an edit, it can do something that's actually on-brand and uses your font, or your styling, or your photography style. So this context layer is where creatives can actually add instructions, so that non-creatives can create and compound assets from what they already have. And then the fifth one is what every organization, you know, like us, is going through right now. It's we're transforming pricing, going fully to usage-based pricing across our product. So all of that hits tomorrow.

• 1:50:10John Coogan?

  What about search? I feel like there's, you know, I've watched my iPhone camera roll, push the search bar bigger and bigger. They really want me to search. And it's okay, but if I, if I know that there's a, I screen-recorded a video and it has Arnold Schwarzenegger in it, but he's not in the still frame, he's not in the thumbnail, he's deeper in there, and I search Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's probably not going to go inside the video, understand the context. And I feel like Air has all this like tagging infrastructure. There's an opportunity for just the best-in-class search. You see people complaining about Gmail search. Same, same thing is true for, for Google Drive. At one point, I had every file

• 1:50:52John Coogan?

  name for every video in Google Drive was just like 75 keywords all the way out, so I could actually search through videos. Is AI accelerating you there?

• 1:51:02Speaker 06

  It's a good, it's a good question. You know, my, my co-founder Tyler and I have been building this business for eight years, and we've been very thoughtful. You know, our, our approach is to try to build a system of record for creative work. So a Salesforce or GitHub specifically for visual data. You know, our AI journey began, to your point, with search, natural language search and the enrichment of assets. And from our perspective, the models got to a point over the last two years, products like BDA as an example from AWS, where you can do a lot of really powerful things. Facial recognition, scene detection for videos, custom object detection, and then you can power that through really elegant natural language search experience. That functionality exists in the product today.

• 1:51:47Speaker 06

  And we've been leaning into that work for the last two years. The shift for us into Generative editing and variant creation really began in October as these models started to progress in the quality of the output. And we realized that the quality of the output was going to be decided by the quality of the context around it. So, you know, starting tomorrow on air, we'll marry both of those things, both the amazing world-class search experience you can now have enabled by AI and the variant creation that can stem from it. So that, you know, a year from now, if you want to look up Martin Shkreli Rage Bait, you know, on VPN, you can go and find that.

• 1:52:27John Coogan?

  I'm glad you're in the audience. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us. Congratulations on the launch.

• 1:52:32Speaker 06

  Thanks so much.

• 1:52:34John Coogan?

  Absolutely beautiful. We'll talk to you soon.

• 1:52:36Jordi Hays?

  See the launch.

• 1:52:37John Coogan?

  Goodbye. Let me tell you about TurboPuffer, serverless vectoring, full text search, built from first principles and object storage, fast, 10x cheaper and extremely scalable. And let me also tell you about Figma. No matter where your idea starts, Figma may clog code, codex, or a sketch. The Figma canvas is where ideas take shape and products connect. Build in the right direction with Figma. Without further ado, we have DocTronic. How are you doing?

• 1:53:01Jordi Hays?

  Doctor DocTronic.

• 1:53:02Speaker 07

  How are you?

• 1:53:03John Coogan?

  We're doing great. Please introduce yourself and the company a bit for us.

• 1:53:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, so Adam, I am one of the co-founders of DocTronic. DocTronic is an AI doctor. We call it that because it's easy for people to understand. We have an AI native care platform. You can come to it, chat with it 24/7. It's always free. And when you're ready, you can press a button and the AI conversation, the summary and a doctor's notice sent off to one of our doctors and you can get care. That could be urgent care, primary care, anything you need.

• 1:53:34John Coogan?

  So, yeah, I mean, WebMD has existed for a long time. ChatGPT has a health functionality, but the key insight here is that you're actually linking to a network of licensed doctors throughout America. Are there particular states that you're starting with? How does it actually work to onboard these doctors?

• 1:53:54Speaker 07

  Yeah, so we're actually live in all 50 states, plus one, and we have a network of 50 doctors that are employed by DocTronic, and that includes both primary care, urgent care, women's health, mental health.

• 1:54:07John Coogan?

  What does it look like if somebody already has their own doctor and they want to bring them to the platform? I imagine that the same way someone might show like, oh, here's my eighth sleep, sleep data doctor, what do you think this says about the other symptom I'm having? Somebody might share, hey, I had this conversation with ChatGPT, can we use this as a jumping off point? What does it look like to bring your own doctor to the platform?

• 1:54:33Speaker 07

  Yeah, so our AI system's always free, and at the end of it, you get a doctor's note that you can take to your own doctor if you want.

• 1:54:39John Coogan?

  Okay, cool.

• 1:54:40Speaker 07

  So there are some people that do that.

• 1:54:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. And then in terms of the the actual business model, who's paying? How do you see that evolving? Where do you think that goes?

• 1:54:52Speaker 07

  Right, so right now, we make money by providing care. And so when you see one of our doctors, you can either pay out of pocket, it's $39, or you can use your insurance. And we take almost every insurance out there, including Medicare.

• 1:55:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:08Speaker 07

  In addition, we're in the process of building out a number of different partnerships with other businesses that will both license our technology and use our physicians as well.

• 1:55:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, how do you think about the opportunity for prescription management? It feels like there's been a boom in telehealth. A lot of work has been done, some controversial, but some very by the book, where they're partnered with a pharmaceutical company, and there's licensed doctors in all 50 states that can prescribe. Is that in the path, or is that tangential to your work?

• 1:55:38Speaker 07

  Directly in the path. So we launched a program in Utah, first of its kind, where we actually are able to renew prescriptions without a doctor. Our AI makes a clinical decision.

• 1:55:49John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 1:55:49Speaker 07

  That was launched eight weeks ago. I think it was a big first step, and we're hoping to build upon that.

• 1:55:54John Coogan?

  That's awesome. Jordi?

• 1:55:56Jordi Hays?

  Uh, what is, yeah, so, so I'm trying to understand, like, are you guys kind of limited from a growth standpoint due to, like, like, how do you scale, basically? You have these 50 doctors that are employed by DocTronic. Do you need to scale that? Or is the idea you can make them, you know, 100 times more, you know? How are you thinking about that?

• 1:56:18Speaker 07

  Yeah, our physicians are, I would say, in order of magnitude, more efficient than a traditional telehealth practice. And so, instead of a doctor being able to see four patients in an hour, they can all of a sudden see 15 or more. And that allows us to scale much faster than a traditional telehealth platform.

• 1:56:37Jordi Hays?

  And then you, you, you mentioned partnerships with other companies. Would that be with, like, major LLM providers? Is that, is that where this is going?

• 1:56:47Speaker 07

  No, our partnerships come in three different flavors. The first one would be with payers, TPAs or large employers that want to utilize our services because we're going to be cheaper than most other telehealth practices. There are large health systems that we're in discussions with that want to utilize our technology because we can make their doctors more efficient. And then there's a whole slew of digital health companies, hardware companies out there that are also interested in leveraging our technology to extend what they can do on their service, potentially providing care.

• 1:57:15John Coogan?

  I was listening to Terrence Tao, the mathematician on Dorkesh Patel, and Dorkesh was asking him about the impact of AI on his job, which is mathematical research, and was trying to say, like, how much more efficient are you? And, and, and Terrence Tao was saying, "Well, I use AI a lot, but I don't, it's not like it's helping me with the core work. It's more like, in a paper, I would like to put a chart. Normally, that chart would take me 10 hours or five hours to put together, so normally I just wouldn't put it in. Now, I can just put it in." And so, he was like, "I'm doing five times the work, but it's not replacing work that

• 1:58:00John Coogan?

  I was doing before?" And it was this very, like, Jevon's Paradox type of answer. And I'm wondering-

• 1:58:05John Coogan?

  worrying about the amount of medical advice that's being dispelled. How much of it is displacing conversations with existing doctors versus just purely additive conversations where someone would have said, you know what? I do have that, you know, I do have some symptom, but I'm just going to go to work today. And I'm not going to go take the time to schedule an appointment and meet with a doctor. How much of what you're doing is seen as additive versus replacing labor?

• 1:58:32Speaker 07

  I think it's almost all additive, to be quite honest. And when you think about medicine, it's always had this fundamental supply, demand mismatch. Think about how many times you've wanted to go see a doctor and you just didn't do it because it's too hard. Right? I think there's probably 10, 100 times more care that could occur if there's zero friction in the system. And a lot of what we're seeing today is it's just so easy to utilize our system that you're going to come in and ask questions that you would never ask a doctor. We have people who use our system 10 times a day. They'll come in and say, hey, I have high cholesterol. What should I eat for breakfast? You would never ask that of a doctor. But when there's no, when there's no friction in the system, you can do that.

• 1:59:08John Coogan?

  Okay, we gotta, we gotta fire up DocTronic and ask whether or not we should take BPC 157 because it's been hotly debated on this show today. And I want, I want a real doctor or an AI doctor to get to the bottom of it. I think that they would probably fall back.

• 1:59:23Speaker 07

  I'm going to defer that to our system. I actually don't know what that is.

• 1:59:26John Coogan?

  It's a very controversial peptide that some people claim works very well. Other people's claim it's a placebo effect. But hopefully people are referring to real medical advice for this particular question. But you raised some money. Tell us, how much did you raise? I want to hit the gong for you.

• 1:59:42Speaker 07

  We have, we raised 40 million for our series B.

• 1:59:48John Coogan?

  Thank you so much for taking the time to come and give us the update and have a hope. I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day.

• 1:59:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, great to meet you, Adam.

• 1:59:55Speaker 07

  You guys as well.

• 1:59:55John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Let me tell you about fin.ai, the number one AI agent for customer service. If you want AI to handle your customer support, go to fin.ai. And we are in the Lambda Lightning Round. This concludes our Lambda Lightning Round, but let me tell you about Lambda. Lambda is the super intelligence cloud, building AI supercomputers for training inference that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. And without further ado, we have Robin Vince from the Bank of New York Mellon. Robin, how are you doing? What's going on? What a wonderful backdrop.

• 2:00:29John Coogan?

  I think we are struggling.

• 2:00:31Speaker 08

  Really remarkable.

• 2:00:33John Coogan?

  Oh, how are you doing? Sorry, we missed you on that intro because of the audio. Can you introduce yourself and the company, I suppose?

• 2:00:42Speaker 08

  Sure. Well, it's great to be with you. Congrats on and everything you've been achieving. It's been been fun to watch your progress. So BNY, we are the world's real looking after the wiring and financial security of the financial system. We also are America's oldest banks. We've been around for a while. We've seen a few cycles over time. There were just 20,000 people in New York.

• 2:01:05John Coogan?

  Yeah, who started the bank again?

• 2:01:08Speaker 08

  Alexander Hamilton, the now famous dude.

• 2:01:10John Coogan?

  That's incredible, incredible. So obviously, a lot of a lot has changed over the, what, 250 roughly year history of the of the firm. What is your day to day like? What is what is on the top of your list of goals for 2026? What are the challenges to running an institution as old as BNY?

• 2:01:32Speaker 08

  Well, we've been really reimagining the company over the course of the past three years. We've been a strong and safe part of the financial services system and the US financial system, as you say, for 250 years. We were the first stock ever traded on the New York Stock Exchange.

• 2:01:47John Coogan?

  That's fantastic.

• 2:01:49Speaker 08

  Exactly. That's right. There's some there's value to longevity, but to get old means that you learn how to adapt. And this is a world full of change. And so we've been laser focused on really bringing ourselves truly into the modern age. AI, very focused on AI and everything we're doing with our platform. We can get to that. But actually taking the company and making it be the performer that it can be. We do all these great things, these different businesses that we have, living up to our potential has really been the motto of the past three years for us.

• 2:02:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, as as you've witnessed AI progress over the last couple of years, what do you think the biggest opportunities for AI within, I would say, like just legacy financial institutions overall? You know, we had someone on earlier that was talking about, you know, a lot of some of this code still running on mainframe computers and and how much how much modernization that I'm sure you've been working on that's not even related to AI? And then how can AI can continue to serve that?

• 2:02:56Speaker 08

  I think for us, there are three vectors. And to be fair, I think they're probably the same for most firms these days. And I think that's true for technology, software firms. I think it's true in the financial services sector as well. One is just doing what we do, but just doing it in a better and more efficient way. So that could be modernizing code. You write COBOL, we have some mainframes. Mainframe is actually pretty good. Super high volume use cases, but we don't want them to run on old code. So having the opportunity to make that change and frankly, just make it easier to be able to make the change. You've been putting it off for a while. Now we've got great tech. It's cheaper and easier and quicker to be able to do it.

• 2:03:32David Senra?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:32Speaker 08

  And but also reimagining processes end to end, being able to essentially take multi-step things and collapse them down to be just more efficient, quicker. So running the company better using AI is number one. Second vector of change is actually the products and services, just enriching what we do and actually what we offer to clients with AI so that they perform better, provide additional insights, can actually be executing quicker for clients. And so we just become better as an institution in our actual delivery of our products and services. And then the third one, I think is actually expanding the perimeter of the firm. We're not trying to turn ourselves into fundamentally a different company,

• 2:04:15Speaker 08

  but we are interested in taking inspiration from other things that have happened in the world. Like Amazon is a good example. Amazon Web Services, once upon a time, it just served Amazon. Then they externalized it as a service and it essentially became their cloud service. We've got lots of things that we do at super scale for ourselves that we could also do for our clients. We are the number one custodian in the world. We custody $60 trillion of assets. We have payment rails.

• 2:04:48Speaker 08

  Yeah. It's fun to have scale.

• 2:04:51Jordi Hays?

  You just said the biggest number ever of any company's, any CEO on the show.

• 2:04:57Speaker 08

  Three trillion a day moves through BNY. We touch 20% of all investable assets in the world. So that is mega scale. You could sound it again if you want.

• 2:05:08John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 2:05:09Speaker 08

  This throughput, the data from that throughput allows us to be able to deploy AI into really making a company kind of different. So this third one, spanning the perimeter, doing for other people things that we currently can only do for ourselves, is kind of an interesting thing, too.

• 2:05:25John Coogan?

  There was an interesting story in the Wall Street Journal today about Mark Zuckerberg looking to build a custom AI or use AI to answer questions in his role as the CEO of Meta Platforms. And I'm interested in how you, as the CEO of BNY, could either are currently using AI or think in the future you might be using AI as a co-pilot for what you do, answering questions about the business. What's on the top of your wish list if someone were to build an AI system that knew everything about your business and could help you do your job as CEO better?

• 2:06:03Speaker 08

  Well, we have the beginning of that right now inside our company. So we have our own AI platform that we built. We started the journey three years ago. It's called Eliza, homage to Alexander Hamilton again. And Eliza connected to all of the LLMs, but is really a multi-aging platform that our people build agents. And we have live agents, multi-agent solutions in production doing work today. We also have digital employees that are essentially multi-agent solutions that wrapped with a user ID, a login, a persona, a name, that

• 2:06:42Speaker 08

  actually make them addressable and deployable in the company to work alongside our human employees as teammates. And Eliza's an app, and I do exactly what you just asked, basically multiple times a day. So I put the client earlier on, hey, I'm going to be seeing this client. Could you please tell me what are the additional things that I should be talking to them about? Give me the top three ideas that are meant to be my pitch to the client. It goes through, looks through every call report that we've interacted with the client, what I did last time I met with them. What's happened in the news so far, what's pertinent in news to their business? And actually just advises me on how to be a better kind of extension for the client rep

• 2:07:26Speaker 08

  team when I'm meeting with them. So I do that today.

• 2:07:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, wow. I mean, can you explain to us a little bit about what you're standing in front of? Is this some situation room to understand the global economy, your business particularly? It looks amazing, but I'd love to know more.

• 2:07:42Speaker 08

  So you can just see a glimpse of it behind me, but yes, it's a, it is exactly all of what you just said. It is a situation room. It's our cyber technology command center. It is AI powered. So AI is kind of the first line in actually looking at it, triaging it. So we're watching $3 trillion of money every day. We're watching 25 to 30 trillion dollars worth of US Treasury settlements every day. We're watching our $3 trillion worth of wealth assets and we're basically helping our clients to be able to get insights into their business that's running through our technology because we're kind of a platforms company these days.

• 2:08:22Speaker 08

  We're a bit of a non-traditional bank in terms of what we actually do. So this is a virtualization. So it's all real data, real time, that is actually, and we have this in three places in the world, that runs off private and public cloud, that actually allows us to get the insight into what's happening in our business all the time, real time.

• 2:08:43John Coogan?

  I'm sure clients are asking you about disruption from artificial intelligence, geopolitical instability. What else is at the top of the minds of your clients as we go into 2026? It's an uncertain time. Where are people searching for certainty right now?

• 2:09:02Speaker 08

  Well, you know, it's an important question, John. And so AI is for sure, right? You're right about the geopolitics, world's complicated place. Digital assets is another example.

• 2:09:11John Coogan?

  Oh, sure.

• 2:09:12Speaker 08

  We've positioned our investment in digital assets, tokenization, organized deposits, stable coins, tokenization of other security types and frankly, other financial assets or maybe welcoming new financial assets into the system. That is something that our clients are super interested in because they want us to help them manage that transition from the old or traditional rails into the new ones. And we can be a partner for them with that.

• 2:09:40John Coogan?

  What is, what do you think is next? I mean, there was a lot of, there was a lot of talk years ago about tokenizing assets, bringing, you know, assets that we know and trade every day onto, you know, digital rails, cryptocurrency, on-chain. That, it feels like that happened with the dollar. It feels like stablecoins are here, they've arrived. Real estate has been slower, stocks have been slower. What do you think is the next?

• 2:10:07Jordi Hays?

  Oil's ticked up.

• 2:10:08John Coogan?

  Is oil on-chain now? I was not familiar with that.

• 2:10:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, people are trading oil on-chain, but it, but it's, I'm sure, I'm sure you see some, some, you have some questions around how that's actually being done.

• 2:10:17Speaker 08

  Yeah, well, look, remember with oil as well, it's a physical commodity at the end of the day. The whole concept of on-chain, the mirror world, is like, if, if ever there was an example of, the reminder that it's a physical asset today, today. But look, let me give you my Gen 1, Gen 2, Gen 3 view of that. And even before I do, let's just acknowledge where we are in Gen 1. So, tokenization, yes, we're underway, we're beginning. You mentioned stablecoins. They have market share this big right now, and so it's early days. It's a little bit like AI. You can see the promise of the tech, you can see the opportunity. But at the end of the day, adoption, full integration into the system is very different than just having the tech.

• 2:11:00Speaker 08

  And we talk all the time about in our company about AI, great, great, exciting, but it's got to be deeper, it's got to be everywhere, it's got to be for everything, for everyone. So I'd say digital assets, similar situation even in Gen 1. We're beginning, it's early days, lot of promise, opportunity. But just taking an existing asset, or even a physical asset that exists that isn't really part of the financial system, putting it on, that'd be the beginning. Then, how do we actually make things work better and differently? Because for some existing assets, they're not necessarily better just because we tokenize them. You know, we take a share of Microsoft and we declare victory because it's a token. We haven't really changed much in the world. If you take a bond...

• 2:11:43Speaker 08

  The question is not only can you tokenize the security, but what can you do with the indenture? How can you have the if and therefore statements that are all part of that piece of documentation? And actually encode them in a chain in a way that it actually is going to add additional value? That's a different thing than just tokenizing the security itself. And then Gen 3, if you actually think about financial securities as ultimately being a cash flow and terms and conditions, then maybe you can just re-render financial assets in entirely different ways because of the fact that you now actually have the blockchain and you actually have capabilities that didn't exist today in the traditional rails. Now, today's L1s aren't really up to that task. So there's innovation that's required

• 2:12:28Speaker 08

  at the L1 layer level as well as in the L2s and then for participant firms. But that's how I see the world. We're early. This is a five-year, 10-year journey. It'll happen, I think. It'll happen more slowly than AI. But that's another example of an innovation right now.

• 2:12:45John Coogan?

  Earlier in the show, we were talking to Mitchell Green from Lead Edge Capital about private credit. And there's been some reporting around just how big that non-bank lending industry is. How should average investors, who aren't maybe specifically in a private credit fund, but just, you know, your average American trying to make sure that their portfolio goes up every year? How should they think about private credit? The risk in the system? How they can protect themselves or potentially benefit? Where is America when it comes to the private credit industry right now?

• 2:13:21Speaker 08

  So first of all, just a reminder that private credit is first of all, credit. And so we've got private credit. We've got public credit. And they're essentially two different markets, different investor types potentially go in. But at the end of the day, they're trying to solve for the same thing, which is leaning in to being able to

• 2:13:40Speaker 08

  Lend money into the into the financial markets and capital system, give entrepreneurs and other business builders or business runners access to more capital. And so there are some types of borrowers who are more suited to the private markets and some who are suited to the public markets and some who do both. There's a lot of drama at the moment in private credit and there are some good reasons for it because there have been some exposures that have been a bit idiosyncratic to private credit. And also, there are always liquidity issues when people see headlines and they say, oh my gosh, is my money safe? And then they're money back and then you have the old elevator elevator door problem. More people want to get out, but there's not necessarily enough space and there's a bit of a rush for the exit. So that's exactly the problem that we're seeing right now.

• 2:14:24Speaker 08

  But the market I would observe is today still pretty strong because the credit market's strong and ultimately the economy drives the credit market. Now, we have high energy prices for a long period of time or we have a real weakness in the economy, then we're going to have problems in the credit market and then we're going to have real problems in the private credit market and public credit market. So I think today, we're in this spot where there's a lot of focus. It's a large but not huge market compared to the scale of the public credit market, but the underlying fundamentals are mostly pretty good. But there's a huge watch out with energy and as a result, a huge watch out into the real economy. And if we have high energy prices or other cracks and they persist, then it's a different story.

• 2:15:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, with the the health of the underlying economy, I feel like people track inflation, they track GDP, they track the stock market. If someone's trying to, you know, now today they're an oil expert. If someone's just trying to get an understanding of how the US economy is growing, what are the signals that you would recommend that they actually look through or try and understand?

• 2:15:38Speaker 08

  Well, first of all, when you're really looking to the economy, you're looking at employment is super important. People who have jobs feel more comfortable and people who feel more comfortable go about their lives and they spend and they fly back and they help the economy to grow. So it's really important to watch in employment and also to watch sentiment. Then consumer sales and spending and kind of credit card health and are people being over leveraged and how they're going about their spending. Those things are important. What is the profitability ultimately of companies and are they growing? Are they investing? Are people capital deploying? Energy is a huge input. High energy prices have a very negative impact on the United States. We sit here and we feel very good about the fact

• 2:16:22Speaker 08

  that we've got a lot of security and energy supply. And so actually having the molecules that can flow because we have access to supply is a really big deal. But we're an export market. So at the end of the day, the world prices sort of set the price domestically here as well. And if we have high energy prices, it ripples through into food. It ripples through into all of the different things that are energy dependent. And these days, everything is energy dependent.

• 2:16:47John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, I guess the good news is that oil's down 10% today. I feel odd saying that, but it was it was very nerve wracking when oil seemed to be going up and up. And as you mentioned, high energy prices can really put a drag on the economy. So hopefully, I think we're all hoping for stability in financial markets, stability in energy markets and all of the above. But thank you so much for taking the time.

• 2:17:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I really enjoyed your perspective.

• 2:17:12John Coogan?

  To break it down.

• 2:17:13Jordi Hays?

  And come back on soon.

• 2:17:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, we'd love to talk to you more.

• 2:17:16Speaker 08

  Thank you.

• 2:17:17John Coogan?

  Have a great rest of your day.

• 2:17:18Jordi Hays?

  Cheers, Robin.

• 2:17:18John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you too soon, Robin. Let me tell you about Graphite, code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. Our next guest is live in person in the TV.

• 2:17:32Jordi Hays?

  The one and only.

• 2:17:33John Coogan?

  The one and only David Center. How you doing? Miss you, man. Nice watch. Good to see you. Tell us, how are you? How are you feeling? What is this? How are you feeling? That's just the Yahoo button. Does that reflect your, your, your inner feelings? I want to hear, I want to talk about your inner monologue.

• 2:17:48David Senra?

  No, I don't.

• 2:17:49John Coogan?

  I want you to introspect. I want you to introspect. How are you feeling? You're doing well?

• 2:17:53David Senra?

  Yeah, like unbelievable.

• 2:17:55John Coogan?

  And do you feel aligned? Do you feel like you're, you're, you're reaching your goals in life? Do you feel like you're doing what you're meant to be doing?

• 2:18:01David Senra?

  Oh, I mean, you don't answer that question. What kind of question is that?

• 2:18:03John Coogan?

  I'm just messing with you. It's an introspection question.

• 2:18:06David Senra?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:07John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was, it was funny.

• 2:18:08David Senra?

  Do you want to give the background to what you're?

• 2:18:10John Coogan?

  Sure, sure. So, so David Senra, host of David Senra and host of Founders, went viral last week after an interview with Mark Andreessen, where you were both in discussion, in agreement around this idea of maybe you don't need to, you don't need to be constantly introspecting. You need to have some forward motion in your life. You need to. Certainly should be ruminating.

• 2:18:37David Senra?

  It wasn't like advice, it wasn't advice for other people.

• 2:18:40John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:18:41David Senra?

  At all.

• 2:18:41John Coogan?

  That's funny.

• 2:18:42David Senra?

  So it was an observation, like I wanted to talk to Mark for a long time.

• 2:18:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:47David Senra?

  And I actually had dinner with him last year in Miami. And it took him a while to warm up, but then once he gets going, the same person you see on the podcast is like the same person in person, right? And I've like consumed everything. I, I told him before, I was like, I think you and Palmer are lucky. You're probably like the two best podcast guests on the planet.

• 2:19:02John Coogan?

  He's great.

• 2:19:02David Senra?

  Right?

• 2:19:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:03David Senra?

  And, you know, because he doesn't have any notes in front of him, I spent eight hours knee to knee with Palmer and I couldn't, he was inexhaustible. I've never come across a mind like that before.

• 2:19:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:10David Senra?

  And Mark's the same way. It's like you can ask him anything and he'll just, he has this crazy recall. And the difference between like me and most people that talk to Mark is like, I've read all the same books that Mark has done. I read his blog archive like eight years ago.

• 2:19:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:24David Senra?

  And which was excellent before, long before he was like tweeting.

• 2:19:26John Coogan?

  Did you do an episode about David's blog archive?

• 2:19:28David Senra?

  Yes, I think it's episode 50 of Founders.

• 2:19:29John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 2:19:30David Senra?

  I think it was in 2018.

• 2:19:31John Coogan?

  Episode 50, wow.

• 2:19:32David Senra?

  Yeah, exactly. I should redo it because there's a lot of really good advice for like founders in there. And so like, I was just excited to, to talk to him.

• 2:19:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:40David Senra?

  It was the by far, I think we've done like 13 or 14 of these that we've released so far. We've now recording like mad, so we have a ton banked, but. It's like one of the people I was most excited to talk about just because like we have the same passions. And he had, he was the only person I've come across in today that came to the same conclusion that like I would read all these biographies. And these people that went on to build great companies, invent new technology, everything else, they talk about this all the time. They actively avoid introspection. And so the reason I brought up, I was not trying to be provocative. I'm not in like, I have a 10 year fucking history of not being provocative, but.

• 2:20:12John Coogan?

  So I mean, I understand the pushback, which is that there's so many examples of, of history's greatest entrepreneurs introspecting. I think that maybe the, the nuance here is when does the introspection happen? I always go back to that Disney chart. You know, the Disney napkin map of how Disneyland fits into Disney films, fits into the radio business, fits into the merchandise business. It all is crystal clear right now. And a lot of founders, a lot of content creators, a lot of people like us will look at that and be like, I need seven things that all piece together. But Disney drew that map and then died like two years later. It was a reflection on his life. He was introspecting

• 2:20:57John Coogan?

  about what made his business successful, but he did it after he had done all the things.

• 2:21:02David Senra?

  I think people are confusing thinking with introspection. So I was actually thinking about you. We're like the, the, again, I went back and listened to the first like 10 minutes of that episode. There's nothing remotely like controversial about this. And I guess one part you're like, yeah, there should be more nuance. Yeah, no shit.

• 2:21:17Jordi Hays?

  Internet, no one needs to contact. They're not going to watch the 10 minutes. They're just going to see the caption and then disagree with the caption.

• 2:21:22David Senra?

  So what I would say is like, this is the difference between pre and post life's work. And so like you're a perfect example. This is like, we've talked about this a few times on the show. It's like, there was a huge pre-history with me and you, pre TPBN.

• 2:21:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:35David Senra?

  And where you're the EIR at Founder's Fund, you're making these fucking incredible docu, I can't cuss, right? You guys got on me last time about this.

• 2:21:43John Coogan?

  You can.

• 2:21:44Jordi Hays?

  You can. It's up to you.

• 2:21:45David Senra?

  Okay.

• 2:21:46John Coogan?

  Depends on how you want it portrayed.

• 2:21:47Jordi Hays?

  If our kids start swearing, they're going to be mad at you.

• 2:21:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, I'm going to take the stand that no, none of history's greatest entrepreneurs have ever sworn.

• 2:21:55David Senra?

  Yeah. You'll go far with that. So what I would say is like, the prehistory here is like, you were EIR founder's fund. You were making these incredible, long-form documentaries on a lot of the same interests that you and I have. I found you, I started talking to you, I was like, you're gifted at this. Like, you're a generational media talent. Cause I was like, the first thing I saw of you was your History of Silicon Valley documentary, which I've read at least 40 books on the same topic, and I'm learning stuff I didn't even know. So I was like, oh, this guy's like, this is incredible. And if you remember at the time, you were trying to figure out, what's that? You were trying to figure out, it sounds like a sheep. You were trying to figure out, okay, do I start another company? Do I become a VC?

• 2:22:38David Senra?

  So you were trying to figure out, do I start another company? Do I become a VC? God forbid.

• 2:22:42John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:22:43David Senra?

  Do I? And I was like, trying to push you to podcast.

• 2:22:46John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:22:46David Senra?

  And then you went through-

• 2:22:47John Coogan?

  You were telling me it was a good business.

• 2:22:48David Senra?

  And then you went through multiple different variations. God damn it, you already stopped. This is your show. So you went through multiple different variations, right? Of different forms of podcasts. You even tried something like this with like a co-host a few different times. I saw all of them.

• 2:23:03John Coogan?

  Lulu and Jason Carmen. And then I also had a solo show that was sort of a copy of yours, but about live people instead of dead people.

• 2:23:09David Senra?

  And we were, I remember, cause we were walking in Miami.

• 2:23:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:13David Senra?

  We were walking to dinner. We actually ran into Keith Raboy on the way there randomly. And we had this dinner, and you're like, this show just doesn't feel right. You didn't like the power law one.

• 2:23:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, the power law was not like, it wasn't getting me out of bed, cause I would make a, I would make an episode, and then somebody would be like, I'm alive, and I'm gonna debate you about this. Like, you got this wrong. And I was like, oh, okay, I don't wanna do it.

• 2:23:34David Senra?

  Yeah, you're like, this is-

• 2:23:35John Coogan?

  No, no, no.

• 2:23:36David Senra?

  Rockefeller's not coming from the grave yelling at me.

• 2:23:38John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly. Yeah, you can say whatever. You can say, you know, Steve Jobs never introspected, and then he's not gonna hit you up and be like, I did.

• 2:23:45David Senra?

  Again, we're not saying like, never. But even like, Elon commented on this. Like, I sent it to our group chat, we should pull up the tweet that he even commented on.

• 2:23:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, he said, reinforcing negative neural pathways via therapy or introspection is a recipe for misery. Don't cut a rut in the road. But isn't this just like, don't ruminate?

• 2:24:05David Senra?

  Some people were saying, "Oh, you guys are using the term wrong."

• 2:24:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:08David Senra?

  Let me finish.

• 2:24:09Jordi Hays?

  But it was like negative introspection.

• 2:24:10David Senra?

  Let me finish. We have friends that all they do is introspect.

• 2:24:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:14David Senra?

  One of them has still not done his first deal. We will not name him. Like, he thinks too much and not enough action. That is the point. It's just like, yeah, people that built... This is not controversial. People that built great shit turned out to do a lot of action. Like, they take a lot of action.

• 2:24:27John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:24:27David Senra?

  As opposed to like just sitting there thinking about how they feel.

• 2:24:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, even the... Isn't it Blackstone who's first deal? Like, Steve's first deal was like a total flop, if I remember correctly.

• 2:24:37John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 2:24:37David Senra?

  I don't remember that, but let me go back to John.

• 2:24:39John Coogan?

  It's like, I wasn't, I wasn't sitting there thinking about like, what's the perfect media product? I was trying things, being very forward motion, being very aggressive about these different things.

• 2:24:47David Senra?

  The important part is you were trying to figure out a business that fits for you.

• 2:24:50John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:51David Senra?

  And then this is why when I immediately saw you guys, you were in like the wrinkled t-shirts. You were filming at the Jonathan Club. I was like, this is it.

• 2:24:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:57David Senra?

  You found it.

• 2:24:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:58David Senra?

  The reason I bring that up for you is because I think it's a great illustration of the point. It's like, I talk to you guys every day. You don't wake up thinking about like, "How do I feel today?" Or like, "What should I do?" You guys just are unbelievably dedicated to... Because you found your life's work.

• 2:25:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:10David Senra?

  And I know this because like, how many people have tried to buy the show? How many people have tried to invest in the show?

• 2:25:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:14David Senra?

  How many people have tried to get you to do other things?

• 2:25:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:15David Senra?

  And you're like, "No, like, we just want to do this, and we just want to do this forever." And the example I used on the episode was Sam Walton.

• 2:25:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:21David Senra?

  Like, Sam Walton was figuring retail out. He had one store for the first five years of his life.

• 2:25:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:26David Senra?

  Right? But then you fast forward 25 years into his life, he wasn't waking up like, "What should I do today?" He's like, "No, I like Walmart. I like building Walmart. I'm gonna make more Walmart. So just keep doing this until I die."

• 2:25:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:35David Senra?

  That's the point we were making.

• 2:25:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:37David Senra?

  And then I love that Mark just refused to back... Oh, he just like, it was like day...

• 2:25:40John Coogan?

  You're like, "10x down."

• 2:25:41David Senra?

  Oh, day after day after day after day of just not fighting this back. And then...

• 2:25:45John Coogan?

  Did very well.

• 2:25:46David Senra?

  And then what I would say about this is like...

• 2:25:48John Coogan?

  Perfect.

• 2:25:49David Senra?

  We hit on this like weird unintended like political divide where like...

• 2:25:52John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:25:52David Senra?

  A lot of like my liberal friends were texting me and saying like, "This is wrong. This is evil." And I'm just like...

• 2:25:57John Coogan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 2:25:57David Senra?

  I think you know I'm not a wrong, like, evil person. And then, you know, more of my conservative friends like, "Yeah, no shit."

• 2:26:03John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:26:04David Senra?

  And that, again, that was unintentional. So a lot of the hate comments came from like the socialist side of Twitter, which, okay, fuck them people. Like, I hate socialists. Like, good.

• 2:26:11John Coogan?

  Got cancelled by the socialists. Good.

• 2:26:13David Senra?

  Good.

• 2:26:14John Coogan?

  More...

• 2:26:14David Senra?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:15John Coogan?

  More, more inspiration to grind harder. Tell us more about the show. What's coming down the pipe? How are you thinking about it? How much are you on the road these days?

• 2:26:25David Senra?

  A lot of people, so Jordy has seen the new studio, which you gotta come out and see.

• 2:26:29Jordi Hays?

  It's crazy.

• 2:26:29David Senra?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:30John Coogan?

  It's crazy?

• 2:26:30David Senra?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:31Jordi Hays?

  It's probably actually the craziest podcast studio ever in history.

• 2:26:35John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 2:26:36Jordi Hays?

  Just like the actual dirt that it's on.

• 2:26:39David Senra?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:39John Coogan?

  Love it.

• 2:26:40David Senra?

  We just had Evan speak out there. Thank you for making that connection. But he started watching the show and he's like, can I be on the show? And then he had known, because he's like, I love these guys.

• 2:26:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:48David Senra?

  So the answer is just like, I'm not, I mean, we will travel if we have to.

• 2:26:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:52David Senra?

  Trying to push as many people as possible to Malibu. We're having a lot of success with that.

• 2:26:56John Coogan?

  True.

• 2:26:56David Senra?

  And, you know, we're all really friends with my, good friends with my co-founder, Rob Moore. And like every time, like the Andreessen one we did, I probably did that like three weeks before he came out. And I was like, again, I don't do any drugs, but I was like high as a kite and I was just like shaking Rob. I was like, just put a founder in front of me every single day.

• 2:27:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:10David Senra?

  Like, that's the biggest thing. So, yeah, I definitely feel like, I'm not waking up thinking, what should I do today? It's like, I'm completely addicted to this.

• 2:27:16Jordi Hays?

  What's the pipeline of people that are coming on the new show that have never done a podcast?

• 2:27:22David Senra?

  Okay, so, one, okay, so we all know.

• 2:27:25Jordi Hays?

  Because that's the real alphas. Like, there's a thousand, there's, there's, not, not, I'm saying like, all of it, but I'm just saying like, there's a thousand people out there

• 2:27:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:34Jordi Hays?

  that are, that would break the internet if they did a show and they just for one reason or another.

• 2:27:39John Coogan?

  Who's your Sarah Payne?

• 2:27:41David Senra?

  Okay, so there's, there's two things here. One, I, there's a lot of other podcasters, a few have tweeted this publicly and I don't really respond to anybody on Twitter, but I've said, hey, you know, I think of this differently. They're like, I don't like doing people that have the podcast circuit.

• 2:27:54John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:27:55David Senra?

  And when you say that, you're just admitting that you have no differentiation, you have no unique perspective. So like, I really wanted to do Mark because...

• 2:28:01John Coogan?

  We would never interview someone here if they were, if they had done a different podcast.

• 2:28:04David Senra?

  Yeah, exactly. But I wanted to interview...

• 2:28:06John Coogan?

  What, this is your sixth show today? Let's ring the gong.

• 2:28:10David Senra?

  I wanted to have conversation with Mark because of all the things that I knew about him that I had never heard anybody else talk about.

• 2:28:16John Coogan?

  Of course, of course.

• 2:28:16David Senra?

  We went on Jim Clark. So if you listen to the episodes...

• 2:28:18John Coogan?

  And, and, and the virality is evidence that you had a new conversation. You got to a different place.

• 2:28:23David Senra?

  Well, not only that, but like, that was the stuff that was controversial, but there's stuff in there like, okay, the fact that when Mark was 20 years old, he was mentored by like the Elon of his day. Jim Clark was the first person to ever, in history, to ever found three separate billion-dollar technology companies.

• 2:28:36John Coogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:28:37David Senra?

  And he didn't start his first company until he was 38 years old. At thirty-eight, he started his first company. And then, and check this out, and then there was this book from like two thousand and one that was published that I read by Michael Lewis.

• 2:28:48Jordi Hays?

  Wait, and before he was thirty-eight, was he just like introspecting?

• 2:28:51David Senra?

  No, no, no, he was an academic.

• 2:28:53John Coogan?

  The moment he stopped.

• 2:28:54David Senra?

  He was, he was an academic, but.

• 2:28:56John Coogan?

  Straight to the top.

• 2:28:58David Senra?

  He describes himself in the book, he just said, as a self-described loser, because he was smart, he had papers written, and he was teaching, but he had no money. And then I think his second or third divorce, the guy's like.

• 2:29:08Jordi Hays?

  Literally, he was literally just.

• 2:29:09John Coogan?

  Who is this again?

• 2:29:10David Senra?

  Jim Clark.

• 2:29:11John Coogan?

  Jim Clark.

• 2:29:11David Senra?

  Yeah, founder of Silicon Graphics, Netscape, the company that turns into WebMD.

• 2:29:16John Coogan?

  And Marc Andreessen was really young when he co-founded Netflix, but he had Jim Clark.

• 2:29:20David Senra?

  Netscape.

• 2:29:20John Coogan?

  Netscape, but, but he had Jim Clark as like this older.

• 2:29:24David Senra?

  His mentor, he's co-founder.

• 2:29:25John Coogan?

  Mentor, which is a wild thing, because normally if you walk into Andreessen's office and you say like, I'm twenty and I have a forty-year-old co-founder, people will be like, this is odd, like, normally we fund like two Stanford grads.

• 2:29:36David Senra?

  So I read an entire book on this.

• 2:29:37John Coogan?

  Very interesting.

• 2:29:38David Senra?

  He talks about it in his blog, and I did two other episodes on the same book, like two or three years apart.

• 2:29:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:44David Senra?

  I don't know how no one ever brought that up to Mark, but it was so fascinating, and he tells three different stories on the podcast, spread by like thirty minutes in between each story, about how formative this was, that the reason he is the way he is is because he was mentored by Jim Clark at twenty. How is that not interesting?

• 2:29:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:57David Senra?

  So there's a, I want to have my own spin on people that.

• 2:30:01John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:01David Senra?

  You know, or do other podcasts. There is another one coming out, we're actually flying to New York to do this one, because it's gonna be one of the craziest locations that you could possibly film in. This was suggested by somebody I can't name on the show, he's a good friend of us three.

• 2:30:13John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:30:14David Senra?

  He's probably the smartest person that we all know.

• 2:30:15John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:30:16David Senra?

  And he's like, hey, we were at dinner in Miami, and he's like.

• 2:30:19Jordi Hays?

  He who shall not be named.

• 2:30:20David Senra?

  Exactly. And so basically, he's like, what do you talk about this guy? I can't tell you who it is, yet, but this guy's product, if you are wealthy in the world, you will know and probably have, you know, frequented this guy's product, and it's outside of tech, it's nothing to do with technology. And so he's never, what'd you say?

• 2:30:37Jordi Hays?

  Chrome hearts.

• 2:30:38David Senra?

  Yeah. No, no, but he's never done a podcast, he doesn't even have any, this guy doesn't even have any social media.

• 2:30:45John Coogan?

  He designed raps that go on Hurricans.

• 2:30:49Jordi Hays?

  The chat is saying you're bringing vague posting to podcasts.

• 2:30:52David Senra?

  Who?

• 2:30:55John Coogan?

  You're vague posting.

• 2:30:56Jordi Hays?

  Who? You're vague posting on a pod, which is innovative.

• 2:31:00John Coogan?

  Let's be less vague. What do you think about the AI podcast that's at the top of the charts right now? It is program.

• 2:31:07Jordi Hays?

  Coming for all of us.

• 2:31:07John Coogan?

  Generated. It's putting us all out of a job.

• 2:31:09David Senra?

  Is this the Epstein one?

• 2:31:11John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:31:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but I think they're transitioning to.

• 2:31:13John Coogan?

  They're gonna do more. They're gonna do a bunch of stuff. Everything that you want, like if it's a hot topic, they're gonna have a podcast that's, you know, single narrator, like very fact-based, deep researched.

• 2:31:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and the reason that it's interesting is like, it's not, it's not an AI app. It is like, somebody used AI to make the media product and then just uploaded it to traditional channels.

• 2:31:35David Senra?

  Yeah, Kareem from Ramp showed me this like a month ago.

• 2:31:38John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:31:40David Senra?

  Yeah, obviously, there's gonna be great AI-generated podcasts. Like, of course. Now, I think they got to the top of the charts, not because they have a large listenership, if I'm not mistaken, but the frequency in which you produce.

• 2:31:50John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 2:31:51David Senra?

  And so that's a way to actually like manipulate that.

• 2:31:53John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 2:31:54David Senra?

  Where you see this with this, some other media companies doing this, where they essentially record for three hours and they just break up. Every, all the episodes are like 15 minutes long and they upload like, you know, 15 a day or whatever. And they're like, look, we're on the top of the charts. But if you actually look at overall listenership, it's like really low.

• 2:32:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, we would.

• 2:32:09David Senra?

  But yeah, like, there's, there's, there's obviously like. I mean, I spent, I got, I got to spend, uh, I think I can talk about this, pretty sure. I got to spend some time with Demis from, from DeepMind. And just like, you know, that is the most AI, AGI-pilled fucking person I've ever come across in my life. So he thinks it's coming for everything.

• 2:32:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:26David Senra?

  So yeah, obviously, there's gonna be great AI-generated podcasts.

• 2:32:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:29Jordi Hays?

  I think the people making AI podcasts would stop if they knew they were competing against you.

• 2:32:38David Senra?

  I found this hilarious. I was looking back.

• 2:32:40Jordi Hays?

  Like the Chuck Norris of podcasting.

• 2:32:42David Senra?

  You guys are hilarious, because I went through our, um, look at this, here. You guys texted me this when I did the new show and you didn't like the profile picture that I that I originally picked.

• 2:32:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you were smiling.

• 2:32:56David Senra?

  You want to read it?

• 2:32:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I said, you created a new account for the new show and I just immediately texted it to you and I said, I think no smile and profile picture. John says, agree. And I said, you look good, it just doesn't seem on brand. You're more serious than 99% of people. And then John said, unless it's a deliberate ploy to make enemies underestimate how seriously you take poscasting. And I said, you look like, you should look like you're gonna kill someone.

• 2:33:22David Senra?

  Yeah. So, anything, like, I think, like, being the best in the world, like, trying to, like, dominate whatever niche, like, you guys are dominating your niche right now.

• 2:33:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:32David Senra?

  I'm amazed, I hear, listen to every single interview you guys do and, like, just your relentless focus of, like, this is what we do. You don't even want to travel, which I heard, like, you changed something, you know, plans recently.

• 2:33:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:43David Senra?

  Yeah, I think, like, the key for us, and anybody, is just, like, whatever your core competency is, is, like, focus in on that, try to get as far down that line as possible, and then just say no to everything else.

• 2:33:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:52David Senra?

  And again, is that even new?

• 2:33:53John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's interesting, on the AI topic, like, the, like, the speed with which AI can produce an audio deep dive on a hot topic, like the Epstein files, which drops, it has thousands of thousands of pages of documents, like, the human team's not gonna be able to read through that, and people want to consume that media through audio, that makes a lot of sense. At the same time, it does feel like interviews, you know, with particular people that everyone knows is not AI, like Marc Andreessen, and then they can react to that and feel something emotionally, because it's a real person with a real impact on the world, that feels very, very sticky, so.

• 2:34:30David Senra?

  Okay, so.

• 2:34:31John Coogan?

  I would debate Demis on that.

• 2:34:32David Senra?

  We just had this conversation, so, some of the stuff, like, how we're using AI for the new show, like, I'm not gonna talk about publicly, I'll obviously tell you guys, because we share information, but it's just, like, I'm not giving an edge to competitors, it's not gonna happen.

• 2:34:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:44David Senra?

  What I would say is, like...

• 2:34:45Jordi Hays?

  So you have a course.

• 2:34:46David Senra?

  No, never do that. Never.

• 2:34:48Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 2:34:49David Senra?

  So, what I would say is, like, we had, I had dinner, like, a month ago, and this is exactly, it was with Kareem and the guy that we can't mention.

• 2:34:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:55David Senra?

  And they're just like, you're moving way too fucking slow. These are close friends, so it's like, they're not, like, being mean to me.

• 2:34:59John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 2:35:00David Senra?

  You're moving way too slow, you're not using AI enough. Like, founders is more, like, susceptible to being overtaken by AI.

• 2:35:08John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:35:09David Senra?

  Than the new one.

• 2:35:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:11David Senra?

  And you should drastically ramp up production on the new one.

• 2:35:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:13David Senra?

  And they made the exact same point that you did.

• 2:35:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:35:15David Senra?

  But I do think, again, like... Everything, the world is like run on power laws and I think podcasting is the same way. And it's just like, yeah, you guys are making media and you're delivering news and commentary, but your audience has a relationship with you.

• 2:35:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:27David Senra?

  Like, I see when they come up to you, like, how they act. They act like you're Jordi and John are my best friends. Like, that's what I ca- I've been saying this, you can go, I've been going on podcasts for a half a decade, like, I'm not making media, I'm creating relationships at scale.

• 2:35:37John Coogan?

  And that's why your, your shows are not just like, you ask one, like, it would be very different to like, use AI and walk into an interview with Mark Andreessen, just with like, 10 questions and be like, Mark, how did you start your career?

• 2:35:49David Senra?

  I didn't have-

• 2:35:49John Coogan?

  AI will be able to-

• 2:35:50Jordi Hays?

  Cause Mark can put up an insane podcast, just with that format, where the guests could say like, a total of a thousand words, and he just like, goes off.

• 2:35:59John Coogan?

  But no, you're-

• 2:36:00Jordi Hays?

  But yours are more like, you know, all of your, I think a lot of your episodes will end up being like, 50/50.

• 2:36:06David Senra?

  I'm trying to, like, I didn't have anything, I, I think they're better if I don't have anything in front of me. Like, I, I prepared for last decade, like, I could just sit down and talk to you. I, we do have one, so I met Tony from DoorDash here, remember? He came on your show.

• 2:36:18John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:36:19David Senra?

  And we had this crazy conversation, you were writing the newsletter, but me, you and Patrick and, uh, Tony had this crazy conversation for like, 45 minutes. And in 15 minutes, I was like, hold up dude, you gotta do more podcasts, cause they're so impressive. That one, I think is coming out, uh, next weekend. That one, I had maybe too much in front of me, just because like, the way I think about Tony is just, he's like, again, like, not financial advice, but he just gives me, out of any, anybody I've ever spoken to, I think he's 41, just gives me like, Jeff, like, young Jeff Bezos vibes.

• 2:36:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:48David Senra?

  Like, I have no idea the quality of the DoorDash, I don't look into the stock, anything like that, all I know is if you think that guy's gonna stop making food-

• 2:36:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the other thing that's notable there is all three of the original co-founders are still working in the business, and it's, what are they, 15 years in, or something?

• 2:37:02John Coogan?

  It's a crazy-

• 2:37:03Jordi Hays?

  Uh, maybe, maybe a little bit less, but, but that, it's so, so rare to have that much success.

• 2:37:08John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:37:08Jordi Hays?

  All the, all the founders are, you know-

• 2:37:11John Coogan?

  Normally, somebody steps back, normally.

• 2:37:14David Senra?

  Think, think about-

• 2:37:15Jordi Hays?

  Somebody's gotta start a venture fund.

• 2:37:16David Senra?

  Think about how humble he is, though, right? And, you know, I even said this on the episode, it's like, you're not gonna like what I'm about to say, Tony, but we say it anyways, it's just like, your competitors are afraid of you. Like, I've, I've had a dinner- In Stockholm with the guy that sold his company for like eight billion dollars to to Tony, his name's Mickey, the company's called Volt or something like that.

• 2:37:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, European.

• 2:37:37David Senra?

  And it was, he told this crazy story I told on the episode with Tony. He still reports directly to Tony to this day and we're like, he, he's like, I thought of myself as an entrepreneur my entire life. I thought there's no way in hell it'd ever work for anybody else. We had, we had a term sheet right in front of me. We could raise a fresh billion dollars of capital to fight them. And I'm looking at it, thinking about this and something involuntarily came out of my mouth that I never thought I would admit. And he's looking at it and he goes, I can't beat him.

• 2:38:03John Coogan?

  Whoa, you can't beat him.

• 2:38:05David Senra?

  He's like, I can't beat him. So I either could like sell for life-changing money and then learn from him, or I could fight this ego and maybe light this billion dollars on, on fire. And he did the difficult decisions, like I'm gonna go and sell.

• 2:38:16John Coogan?

  You're still gonna get stock in the new company and be able to grow that.

• 2:38:19David Senra?

  Yeah. But I would say that out of all the conversations I've had so far, the one that they're all, like I've all enjoyed them, but what I would say is like Toby Luque was, if, if no one, if the people listening to this have not listened to any of the new show yet, I would, if, if you wanna go in tech, go Toby Luque. If you wanna find this, these crazy people that are not in tech, go Todd Graves.

• 2:38:42John Coogan?

  Todd Graves.

• 2:38:43David Senra?

  But Toby Luque was very fascinating to me because he's your favorite founder's favorite founder. So everybody that you admire, you ask who they admire and they'll bring up Toby. And what they like about him is that he thinks through every single thing independently. So therefore he has all these beliefs that are not correlated with one another, which means when you have a conversation with him, you are unable to predict what his response to your question or your statement is going to be. And that, we talked for four hours. So we talked for a half hour before we recorded, then we recorded for three hours, we edited down to whatever it was. Then we recorded for another thirty, or talked for another thirty minutes after. And I could've kept talking, I was like, dude, I gotta catch a flight, I'm gonna have dinner with Charlie Rose that night. Like I'd like fly down there, it's like we would've kept talking. Like he just blew my mind. And one thing he said that I think would be interesting to your audience is he believes,

• 2:39:27David Senra?

  and I think he said this on the episode, that we're gonna look back on the year 2026 as the year that every single business in the world was up for grabs. That AI is coming for everything. Every single other business will have to be reimagined and you're gonna look back at, this is the year where it was, it should've been obvious to you that you can rebuild the AI-nated version of whatever exists out there.

• 2:39:48John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:39:51Jordi Hays?

  Meta has scaled back their metaverse plans, kind of refocused the company. A lot of people over the last couple of weeks have been kind of dunking on Zuck for that. Anything stand out in history where great entrepreneurs, CEOs made like massive, massive bets? And they didn't pan out? I would say, as a Meta shareholder, I think it's great that Zuck is willing to like bet heavy, heavy, heavy on, you know, trends that he really believes in. And also it's great if you kind of run it down and then realize you're hitting a dead end or need to refocus.

• 2:40:35Jordi Hays?

  But what's your view on, on, you know, swinging for the absolute fences and missing sometimes?

• 2:40:41David Senra?

  I mean, it's obviously inevitable. Jeff Bezos has this great line in shareholder letters where it's like the size of your failure has to scale with the size of your company. So he's like, I can't make a $300 million mistake anymore. I need to be making, I think the Fire Phone was like a $3 billion. Yeah, that's good. Like, okay, because I want to, I'm going to somewhere like I have to, like, it's just inevitable. What I will say is I've spent some time with Zuck. I don't, I don't think he has a peer. Like, I told him this, it's like, who else is his age? And he's still somewhat of a puzzle and mystery to me. And that's why I'm like interested in like to continue to talk to him. Because it's just like, I've read every single book on Facebook, they're all bad. There's no good books on Facebook. There, some of his, you know, most of his interviews, like, they just, there's just certain things I want to talk to him about that, because I'm just naturally curious about.

• 2:41:26David Senra?

  I think this is the whole point where, you know, people like, you guys are having this immoral conversation about introspection. It's just like-

• 2:41:31John Coogan?

  It's funny, because, yeah, you actually want him to introspect. You want, the interview that you would do with Zuck would be very reflective. It would not be, tell me how you're thinking about MSL's product roadmap.

• 2:41:44David Senra?

  No, I don't even think it would be introspective. It'd be like, just, I want to know how, like, the reason I signaled out the Toby Luque episode, because when I sat down with Toby and I did this for Brian Armstrong too, who was awesome, just like, I want to make like a how Toby Luque works episode.

• 2:41:57John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:41:58David Senra?

  Like, and this is what, I just want to know, I'm not, there's no gotcha here. It's just like, how do you think about building businesses? How do you think about retaining talent? Why'd you do this product? Like, just tell me the stuff that, you have 25 years, in his case, 20, I think 20 years experience as an entrepreneur. Like, that's one very rare, especially one in a single company, like you've learned all kinds of crazy stuff, like just like, let's get some of this on record and like, let's talk about this. So same thing with Zuck, I'd just be very interested. What I like about him is like, he has this just like inner clock, where you know, he's, he's going to make these massive bets. And you know, so obviously he knows, he's obviously not stupid, like, some of them are going to fail, of course.

• 2:42:37John Coogan?

  Yeah. What do you think about retired interviews? Is that? People out of the game. The risk with a live player, someone who's actively running a public company is that the SEC is listening to what they're saying, that they want to stay on talking points, that they have a bunch of different incentives. Well, if they say, oh, well, you know, the easiest thing I ever did was cut back my marketing spend because none of that stuff was working, well, then their head of marketing is going to be upset, there's internal politics. Whereas, when you do an interview with somebody who's retired and no longer in the game, sometimes they can speak a little bit more freely about their industry, their life's work, their career, etc.

• 2:43:19David Senra?

  Yeah, I would, if, if I could have a show of just 80-year-old billionaires, like that would talk, like, I got to spend time with Sam Zell before he died, the fact that I wasn't able to ever able to record a podcast with him, like, now that I have this new vehicle, it's like, man, because he's just like, doesn't care, he's dying of cancer, like, he's going to say whatever. So my friend Sam Hinkie, I just saw him like, two weeks ago, and he actually gave me advice, he's like, you should organize your guest list in reverse chronological order, because

• 2:43:46John Coogan?

  Oh, sure.

• 2:43:47David Senra?

  Like, there's one guy we're working on right now, who's, you know, one of the most successful people, we already had to reschedule with him, he's 87.

• 2:43:52John Coogan?

  87, yeah.

• 2:43:53David Senra?

  And he is like, unfiltered, and incredible.

• 2:43:57John Coogan?

  What about, um, the, the tension between a name brand live player, like a Toby Look, he's somebody who's done other podcasts, people are, you know, know Shopify, maybe they've built a business on Shopify, like, it is not fully a consumer brand, but it will draw a certain level of attention, versus 80-year-old billionaire who's been, you know, owns half the farmland in Montana, might have had a fantastically rich life, but one behind the scenes. Is there still an interview to be done there?

• 2:44:29David Senra?

  Yeah, like, how do you guys choose the people you want to talk to? Like,

• 2:44:34John Coogan?

  Well, a lot of it's news driven. So a lot of it's about, you know, what's happening right now in the world? Who can we talk to to contextualize that? And so I enjoy those reflective moments when they come up, but they aren't as much of a driving force at all.

• 2:44:49David Senra?

  So I, I, I just like try to, um, so I was, went on a walk yesterday, or maybe yesterday, I didn't know where I was yesterday. Uh, yeah, it was yesterday morning and a really good friend, really smart person. He was just like, you have, one of your gifts is like, uh, settling everything down to like, what is actually essential. And so, and he's like, you helped me talk through all the, these issues I'm having with my business this way. Um, but you do it for yourself. Where it's like, this, I'm just going after things I'm intensely interested in, especially in the age of AI. If you're not following what you're obsessed with, like, I don't, I think you're doing it wrong. So Founders is just the books that I'm intensely interested in reading. And the new show is just people I'm intensely interested in speaking to. Some of the stuff, the, the people we have recorded, they'll like, maybe know this like small niche thing. I'm not going after like

• 2:45:34David Senra?

  just big names. That's not interesting to me. It's like, the, the rubric is very, or the, the, like the decision making here is very simple. It's like, am I intensely interested to sit down and talk to this person? Like, um, Evan Spiegel, I, I showed him too, this is like, I did an episode of Founders on him. I think it's episode like 25 or 24. It's like a long time ago. And what I, what, there was like one thing that happened with Evan, because I talk about Edwin Land all the time, founder of Polaroid, Steve Jobs hero, Steve Jobs copied a lot of Edwin, how Edwin Land built Polaroid and used those ideas in, in building Apple.

• 2:46:08John Coogan?

  He's the Steve Jobs of mentoring technologists.

• 2:46:09David Senra?

  Yeah. And like, he's the patron saint of Founders. And so I read this book about Evan and Evan is 21 years old and he's talking about that he's got two heroes. And it happens to be Steve Jobs, which makes sense. Every 21 year old kid trying to be an entrepreneur at the time had Steve Jobs. And then Edwin Land. It's like, how the hell does a 21 year old even know?

• 2:46:24John Coogan?

  We got enough landhead.

• 2:46:25David Senra?

  Yeah, we had, we had incredible conversation about that.

• 2:46:27John Coogan?

  No, it's a different land.

• 2:46:29David Senra?

  Yeah. And so like, that's usually, I mean, like, I just, like, we have the same interests. This is a guy that is, has influenced my thinking. He influenced your thinking. And of course you wind up with a camera company.

• 2:46:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:39David Senra?

  Like, it made perfect sense to me.

• 2:46:40John Coogan?

  Oh, that makes sense.

• 2:46:41David Senra?

  And I, I don't care. Everybody's like, oh, market cap, or I don't care about that.

• 2:46:44Jordi Hays?

  iPhone is also.

• 2:46:46David Senra?

  But people are like, what about, what about like, if the stock price is down or the market cap? So I don't give a shit. I want him to win. He, he's like a very interesting person to me.

• 2:46:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, totally, totally.

• 2:46:54Jordi Hays?

  Okay, uh, Saturday.

• 2:46:57Jordi Hays?

  I watched Elon's kind of new pitch for Tesla, XAI, and SpaceX. And one of the products that he was kind of presenting was a mass driver. Did you follow this at all?

• 2:47:12David Senra?

  Do you think I did?

• 2:47:13Jordi Hays?

  I know, I know you didn't.

• 2:47:14David Senra?

  We have, hold on, we have two episodes.

• 2:47:16Jordi Hays?

  But we were having, yeah, yeah, so we were, we were having, we were having a debate on the show at the beginning around the timeline for the products and we were pretty, John, where did we actually land? You were saying under 20 years.

• 2:47:29John Coogan?

  I said, I said, under 20, Tyler said, under 30, and you said 75 or something.

• 2:47:34Jordi Hays?

  And so.

• 2:47:35John Coogan?

  Or you, you said 10, but then also 75.

• 2:47:38Jordi Hays?

  But also five.

• 2:47:39John Coogan?

  Also five.

• 2:47:42Jordi Hays?

  No, I, I, I've literally, I have, I have no idea. I'm not going to pretend that, that I, I think I have like an accurate read on it. But has there any, any entrepreneurs throughout history that were kind of pitching their business overall on, on timelines where the market was like, I don't know if this is like.

• 2:48:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:00Jordi Hays?

  Like, like, going back to like inventing flights. People telling the Wright brothers, like, you're never going to be able to fly. Is it possible?

• 2:48:09John Coogan?

  People were saying that.

• 2:48:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, no, I know, I know, I know. But then they did it, they did it on like a.

• 2:48:13John Coogan?

  They, they weren't being like, like, like this chain of events will lead to the 747 50 years from.

• 2:48:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:48:19John Coogan?

  And like, so get ready for the 747.

• 2:48:21Jordi Hays?

  This is like, this is like the Wright brothers pitching.

• 2:48:22John Coogan?

  My bicycle plane.

• 2:48:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:24John Coogan?

  Because the 747 is coming. Like, it was coming in 50 years, right?

• 2:48:30David Senra?

  So I would say about Elon in particular, I did this episode of Founders, which I'm really proud of. It's probably the most downloaded episode ever. It's called How Elon Works. And it strips away all the biographical details and just talks about him speaking about the way he runs his companies. And in that episode, I said, like, usually there's some kind of like historical equivalent for everybody operating today. And, you know, you could name a person, I could find somebody in history that, you know. But for him, I do think he is like a singular character. I can't think of anybody living or dead that is like him.

• 2:48:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:58David Senra?

  There's.

• 2:48:58John Coogan?

  It's weird because he's an industrialist, but he's also incredibly promotional and like very good at the marketing side as well as the building side.

• 2:49:04David Senra?

  The best in the world at that.

• 2:49:05John Coogan?

  That's very.

• 2:49:06David Senra?

  Might be the best salesperson.

• 2:49:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:07Jordi Hays?

  Well, that was, that was why, that was why the week, the weekend presentation was tough.

• 2:49:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:12Jordi Hays?

  Because I didn't think the, all the technology was cool. And I have zero doubt that Elon can do hard things that no other. Set of companies.

• 2:49:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:22Jordi Hays?

  And you see it today because I just wasn't.

• 2:49:23John Coogan?

  A decade ago, people were like, Roadster's coming next year. Everyone's talking about Roadster and no one's really talking about Mass Driver.

• 2:49:30David Senra?

  So.

• 2:49:30John Coogan?

  They didn't break through in the same way.

• 2:49:31David Senra?

  So probably because of the name, like.

• 2:49:34John Coogan?

  Mass Driver. They gotta get a new name. Yeah, they should call it.

• 2:49:37David Senra?

  I didn't see it, so I don't know what that means, but that's fine. Hold on, there is, to answer your question, Jordy, there is tons of examples from history of somebody having an idea, saying that they're going to dedicate to that life, like their life to making that idea come to fruition and taking multiple decades to, to, to actually do that. So like, the, the thing that comes to mind, just because I'm, I'm rereading about him now and I'm probably going to do another episode on him, I've done like six episodes on Henry Ford. And Henry Ford had one idea, he would tell you, I had one idea in my entire life, and that was to figure out a way to make the car for an everyman. Meaning at the time when you made less than a dollar a day, cars were like $6,000. You can't afford, the people making them cannot afford them. How can we learn to mass produce that? And it took him, you know, 20 years of how, of pounding on that idea till he actually accomplished that goal.

• 2:50:21David Senra?

  So he probably thought it was going to be done three, or five, or 10. And it took 20. Um, but yeah, you're, you're going to find a ton of examples like that. It always takes longer.

• 2:50:29John Coogan?

  And that's why the Raptor R exists. It's the car for the everyman. Henry Ford would love the Raptor R.

• 2:50:35Jordi Hays?

  The, the thing that, that, that example doesn't quite satisfy this, this example because this pitch is like, these eight things need to happen perfectly synced together in order for this other thing to be possible.

• 2:50:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:53Jordi Hays?

  But again.

• 2:50:54David Senra?

  So.

• 2:50:55Jordi Hays?

  Betting against Elon has not worked yet.

• 2:50:57John Coogan?

  Mid curve alert, mid curve alert.

• 2:50:59David Senra?

  There is, there's a book by our mutual friend Eric Jorgensen that's coming out tomorrow.

• 2:51:03Jordi Hays?

  Mid curve. Mid curve. Uh, we, yeah, I think, I mean, we can show the cover, can't we?

• 2:51:10David Senra?

  Yeah, because you can read the whole thing right now, live. You guys want to screen for another seven hours?

• 2:51:14Jordi Hays?

  Let's do a table reading.

• 2:51:15David Senra?

  Um.

• 2:51:16John Coogan?

  This is the book of Elon with a foreword by Naval Ravikant by none other than Eric Jorgensen, and the visuals are by Jack Butcher. Ooh, that's great.

• 2:51:23David Senra?

  So in the book, Elon talks about the fact that he gets a lot of shit on the fact that his timelines are usually, you know. Off. Yeah. And he explains why and everything else. But I think what Eric, we're actually doing something. Eric was actually the first American to ever put me on a podcast. Really? And so like the first podcast I ever did of somebody else's podcast was this one that only went in like China. Yeah. And so it was like really popular on WeChat, but no one, but Eric, he just like gave me a shot when no one really knew who I was. That's awesome. And they wound up being important because one of the listeners of that episode, there's only like a thousand people that listened to it, was Patrick. And Matt Russell, who was running Colossus. And there's a, there's a, a, there's a comment in the Colossus Slack,

• 2:52:07David Senra?

  the Colossus Podcast Network Slack, which Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the founder of, talking about the episode, this is before I was signed to them. And he, they said, uh, this guy sounds like he's gonna bite the microphone. And so they're like, oh, he's actually like, might be good at this. Um, but I think what Eric is, the reason, what I'm doing is I'm dropping an episode of founders on this book tomorrow, which is a normal solo episode. Then I did something different for the new show, which I think could be another, um, another like not just having conversations with great founders, but conversations with charismatic authors who are writing about great founders. Eric, which is a friend, he's also very articulate and charismatic. And so we essentially, that episode's coming on the David Center feed tomorrow. Yeah.

• 2:52:46Jordi Hays?

  Did you say because he's a friend, he's articulate?

• 2:52:49David Senra?

  No, no, because I spent a lot of time talking to him. We're like, you guys have interviewed authors.

• 2:52:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:52:54David Senra?

  Some of them was like.

• 2:52:55Jordi Hays?

  Authors are almost universally fun to talk to in the moment that they're launching their book because they've spent more time than anyone else on earth. Just thinking about that one.

• 2:53:05David Senra?

  So we, when you see the shot tomorrow, it's like, we have like, you know, I don't know, a thousand pages of Elon documents in front of us. And a lot of it is just me going through, asking my notes and highlights with Eric. And then you essentially can prompt him and then he can tell you crazy Elon stories. Yeah.

• 2:53:20Jordi Hays?

  Do you think that? There's a lot of the CEOs that you're talking to, the ones that are kind of in their prime, let's say, you know, five to 10 years or 20 years into their company, do you think they are more AGI pilled than they let on, on the internet? Because a lot of them will like, talk about how they're using AI and talk about how they're excited about it. But I feel like you've given me some examples where, behind the scenes, they're actually like, much stronger believers.

• 2:53:48David Senra?

  I mean, you guys had, I think, Lulu, I think, has been on here talking about that AI has like a communication, like a branding problem. It's like, very unpopular with the general population.

• 2:53:59John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:54:00David Senra?

  Actually, talking, I spent over an hour with Kareem yesterday, talking about this topic, and about ways to actually get good information. What I would say is like, yeah, like, most of the stuff they're talking about, they're not gonna talk on a podcast, they're not gonna talk about, you'll see this in group chats, to some of the ones that like, you and I are in, but even that, like, yeah, most of them is like whispers and like, private conversations and completely off the record stuff.

• 2:54:21John Coogan?

  Do you think he'll ever write a book?

• 2:54:23David Senra?

  Do you think he'll ever write a book? The things that we three share, no, man, the thing that we three, no, the thing that we-

• 2:54:31Speaker 02

  That's a narrative violation.

• 2:54:32David Senra?

  What we share is like, do you want to do anything else than, than the show? Why haven't you raised the fun yet? Why aren't you starting a new company?

• 2:54:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:41David Senra?

  Why aren't you on a plane right now, traveling?

• 2:54:42John Coogan?

  I'm just thinking like, I don't know, like, like, the book of David Senra with Eric Jorgensen-

• 2:54:49David Senra?

  He's writing it.

• 2:54:50John Coogan?

  Could make sense, but-

• 2:54:51David Senra?

  Eric's already writing it.

• 2:54:52John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:54:53David Senra?

  Yeah, he tried to work on it with me, and he's just like, you, you're, you don't answer my phone, and if I talk to you, because I can't get a hold of you, then I talk to you, you have, your idea changes all the time. I was like, I can't be the bottleneck of anything. This is why I have to run my own shit.

• 2:55:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's fair. I'm just thinking about in terms of like, uh-

• 2:55:07David Senra?

  Are you trying to like sabotage me? You're trying to like-

• 2:55:10John Coogan?

  No, no.

• 2:55:11David Senra?

  Not that we're friends.

• 2:55:12John Coogan?

  I've just seen more and more, like, Dorkesh wrote that book with, with Stripe Press, that was heavily based upon the interviews that he did, had a bunch of interesting graphics, it was clearly a collaborative project, and I feel like there's an aura effect to, to writing that can work very well. I mean, we had- We've had a number of people on that have been able to stick the landing.

• 2:55:35David Senra?

  No, I think again, like just focus is more important than ever in this age and focus on things that you're just, you think about all the time and that you're like obsessed with. And like the reason I could do a new episode every day is because I'm, I never get tired of talking about how people build their business or think about their products or like, I find that shit infinitely fascinating because you could do it. This is what I loved about Toby.

• 2:55:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:55David Senra?

  And it's just like, he's like, the reason he thinks, he said this on the episode, the reason he thinks through every single thing because he's like, there's not one right way to do it. There's probably a hundred and I'm looking for the right way for me. And so like talking about AGI build, he said something shocking on that episode where, you know, because he's like, I started Shopify in my, in, I was, he had no money. He was living in this like mother-in-law's house at a small desk in a bedroom there.

• 2:56:20Jordi Hays?

  It was inside of a cave, right?

• 2:56:22David Senra?

  No, I don't think so.

• 2:56:23John Coogan?

  With scraps.

• 2:56:24Jordi Hays?

  With scraps. No, he built the company with scraps.

• 2:56:26David Senra?

  And, uh, and then what was interesting about that is he, right, right before all the, the new innovation in AI happened, he said that he was like, he, he thought like, I'm not the right person to run this company anymore. I shouldn't be CEO anymore.

• 2:56:37John Coogan?

  And then he stayed.

• 2:56:37David Senra?

  And then he's like, if it wasn't for age, uh, for, for AI, I wouldn't be running the company anymore.

• 2:56:42John Coogan?

  So many stories about, of like that where someone had a really good business growing and it's just stable growth, 20% top line. They're doing fine, but they are just lost for purpose or energy. And then AI happens and they're like, I'm back in gear. I love seeing it, especially with the folks who are at that like multi-billion dollar phase. It's just been, uh, it's been a remarkable, remarkable moment in tech.

• 2:57:07David Senra?

  Yeah. Wouldn't, uh, you, you want those people to be playing as long as possible. He's still relatively young. He's probably what his 40s, 45 or something like that. Like that's way too early.

• 2:57:14John Coogan?

  But it's so easy to step back and think about something else, get distracted or do a fund or something, or just retire. Like there's a lot of people.

• 2:57:22David Senra?

  And he went, and also he went public really early. I think he said on the episode, they, they went public at a 1.5 billion dollar valuation or it was like some crazy number.

• 2:57:30Jordi Hays?

  IPO for ants.

• 2:57:32John Coogan?

  It's high for Canada. There's a lot of stuff on the TSX that's like tiny.

• 2:57:34David Senra?

  Yeah, but I think at one point he was at 200 billion. I don't know what he's at now. Um, yeah. And so it had to feel like he was sprinting, you know, for 20 years.

• 2:57:43John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 2:57:43David Senra?

  But no, you want, I'm glad those people are like that. And like, and I do think that, you know, the point, somebody was making this point to me yesterday. Where it's just like, these technical founders just have, you know, a massive advantage over everybody else.

• 2:57:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:55David Senra?

  And you see this with like Toby constantly writing more code, Brian Armstrong is doing the same thing. You just see this over and over again.

• 2:58:01John Coogan?

  There's a lot of folks.

• 2:58:01Jordi Hays?

  There is a peptide you could take that would allow you to podcast for 25 hours a day. Would you take it?

• 2:58:07David Senra?

  Well, okay. What, here's the thing. I keep hearing about peptides. I think I accidentally took one, one time. What, what happened?

• 2:58:14Jordi Hays?

  Justin, Justin, I think had some.

• 2:58:17David Senra?

  Oh, no, that was, yeah. Justin gave, Justin had like, I don't even know if we could talk about this. He gave me and you, that's right. Justin Mayer's.

• 2:58:26Jordi Hays?

  Some sleep, it was some sleep peptide, but it was like something you get on Amazon.

• 2:58:30John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:58:30David Senra?

  But I thought his friend, he said his friend made it in like his own compound pharmacy. We might get Justin arrested for this. But we, us, we were hanging out and then you text, or maybe we hung out the next day, you texted him. He's like, I didn't feel anything about this. No. I am, one of the benefits of partnering with Andrew Heuerman is you get access to like weird health shit. And so, um, I was like over like, I remember recording with like John Mackey. It was the day I recorded with John Mackey. Felt fine. We, we stopped at like 1pm. By like 5pm, I feel like I'm gonna die. And I had an unbelievably important thing to do. Like 36 hours later, I could not mess, uh, mess around. And so I just texted the group and they sent like this IV guy. And it was like a four hour IV.

• 2:59:10David Senra?

  And I was like, listen, and I don't know anything about this. I was like telling Rob, I was like, I trust you. So like you don't give me like, I don't want to. This has to be good. Would you take this? And it's something they do to make sure that like they're, when they're on the edge of getting sick.

• 2:59:23Jordi Hays?

  Well, the next, the next meta. Or go.

• 2:59:25David Senra?

  One of them, there was some kind of peptide in there. One of them, by the next morning, I woke up feeling 100%. Like, I went from deadly sick to, I feel like, a completely normal person.

• 2:59:36Jordi Hays?

  Well, the next meta is leeches.

• 2:59:38John Coogan?

  No.

• 2:59:39Jordi Hays?

  You're gonna be terrifying. No, you can get medical leeches. This is every podcaster.

• 2:59:45John Coogan?

  Stop, stop.

• 2:59:45Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah, you don't like snakes.

• 2:59:46David Senra?

  What, what happened? Because I walked in and all the guys were talking about, you guys had some kind of debate?

• 2:59:51John Coogan?

  We had a debate, Martin Scrawley.

• 2:59:53David Senra?

  What happened?

• 2:59:53John Coogan?

  From Superpower.

• 2:59:54Jordi Hays?

  Uh, yeah.

• 2:59:56John Coogan?

  They were debating whether or not, like, the, the, the more out there peptides that are not fully FDA-approved yet, maybe there's some data, should those be sold? Uh, what's the correct path to bring the next generation peptides to market? Martin Scrawley's position was that, uh, the FDA has the path laid down. These companies should be, these products should be developed by biotech companies, approved by the FDA, then sold in the pharmaceutical context prescribed by a doctor. And Max, uh, from Superpower had a more liberal view.

• 3:00:25David Senra?

  Does he sell, does one of the guys sell peptides?

• 3:00:27John Coogan?

  Uh, I don't know if Superpower does, but a lot of, a lot of Silicon Valley companies are getting into that market. And a lot of people in San Francisco and Silicon Valley broadly are, like, taking Chinese peptides, quote unquote. Meaning that they're, like, going to a gray market, marketplace that then manufactures these drugs that are not FDA-approved and not made in FDA-approved facilities, and certainly are not to the economic benefit of the pharmaceutical companies that spent a lot of money developing these drugs. So, there's some company out there that's been working on something, they develop the intellectual property, they're hoping to recoup 100% of that because they have a patent on it, and so that they should be able to sell it and get all the value.

• 3:01:10John Coogan?

  And there are a whole bunch of third parties that are going around copying the homework, uh, maybe changing it a little bit, maybe making it worse, maybe making it less effective, maybe making it less safe, uh, and, and then selling it. And so, there, there, there's a big debate in Silicon Valley right now about, like, the.

• 3:01:26David Senra?

  Are you taking any of this stuff?

• 3:01:27John Coogan?

  Nope.

• 3:01:28David Senra?

  You, like, protect your body like a temple.

• 3:01:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:31David Senra?

  I'm surprised you took what Justin gave you.

• 3:01:34Jordi Hays?

  I trust Justin. Justin and I have a very similar ethos around health. Yeah.

• 3:01:37John Coogan?

  Anyway, this has been a fantastic conversation.

• 3:01:40Jordi Hays?

  I'm excited to continue this podcast as soon as we go off.

• 3:01:43John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 3:01:43Jordi Hays?

  The podcast never stops.

• 3:01:45John Coogan?

  Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. We are now the number two technology show on Spotify. Thank you to everyone who's supported us. Who's ahead of you? Throughout this way. All in.

• 3:01:55Jordi Hays?

  All in.

• 3:01:55John Coogan?

  All in's on a big run, you know, they're doing well, but we're coming for you all in. Watch out. Just kidding. Subscribe, subscribe to our newsletter at tbpn.com. Leave us five stars.

• 3:02:05Jordi Hays?

  We're happy, we're happy for them to be number one as long as they're running ads.

• 3:02:08John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, they're running ads. Are they now? Our job is finished. On the podcast? Our job is finished. Yeah, that was, that was one of our early bits. We wanted All In to run ads and they're running ads, so we're happy. Anyway.

• 3:02:18Jordi Hays?

  A patriotic thing to do.

• 3:02:20John Coogan?

  We will see you tomorrow. Massive stream tomorrow, 11 a.m. Pacific.

• 3:02:24Jordi Hays?

  Send us a reaction to this.