NEO Home Robot Reactions, Bryan Johnson LIVE in The Ultradome | Marcin Piatkowski, Nathan Mintz, James Proud, Shaun Maguire, Anil Chakravarthy, Brynn Putnam, George Kurtz

(03:04) - NEO Home Robot Reactions (31:45) - Marcin Piatkowski is a Polish economist, professor at Kozminski University, and Lead Economist at the World Bank, known for his work on Poland's economic transformation. He discusses Poland's remarkable economic growth over the past 35 years, attributing it to factors such as a strong work ethic, with Poles working significantly more hours than their Western European counterparts, and the country's ability to leapfrog outdated technologies by adopting modern infrastructure and digital solutions. Piatkowski also highlights Poland's focus on education, noting that a higher percentage of young Poles hold university degrees compared to Germans, and emphasizes the importance of fostering innovation and maintaining an open economy to sustain this growth. (47:59) - 𝕏 Timeline Reactions (01:16:59) - Bryan Johnson is an entrepreneur and futurist best known as the founder of Kernel and Blueprint, focused on brain technology and longevity science. He previously founded Braintree, acquired by PayPal for $800 million, and is known for his experiments in health optimization and anti-aging. (01:56:59) - Nathan Mintz, co-founder and CEO of CX2, a defense technology company specializing in electronic warfare solutions, discusses the increasing importance of electromagnetic spectrum dominance in modern conflicts, emphasizing the need for the U. S. and its allies to adapt to contested environments. He highlights the shift from traditional warfare to autonomous systems, as seen in Ukraine, where drones and unmanned vehicles play pivotal roles, and underscores the necessity for rapid innovation cycles to counter evolving threats. Mintz also touches on the concept of the U. S. acting as the world's arms dealer, focusing on equipping allies with advanced defense technologies to enhance collective security. (02:06:01) - James Proud, co-founder and CEO of Substrate, is leading efforts to reestablish the United States as a dominant force in semiconductor manufacturing. He discusses the company's innovative approach of using particle accelerators for X-ray lithography to reduce production costs and complexity, aiming to have a facility operational by 2028. Proud emphasizes the importance of vertical integration and rapid progress to meet national security needs and compete globally. (02:16:32) - Shaun Maguire, a partner at Sequoia Capital with a PhD in physics from Caltech, has led investments in companies like SpaceX, The Boring Company, and xAI. He discusses Sequoia's recent fund launches, emphasizing a return to fundamentals by focusing on high-quality investments and active company building. Maguire also highlights the firm's proactive role in company formation, often assisting in structuring and assembling founding teams before incorporation. (02:44:21) - Anil Chakravarthy, President of Adobe's Digital Experience Business, discusses the integration of AI into Adobe's creative tools, emphasizing responsible use through their Firefly models designed for commercial safety. He highlights partnerships with Google and other third-party models, as well as support for custom models to protect enterprise customers' intellectual property. Chakravarthy also addresses the diverse needs of Adobe's user base, from individual creators to enterprise clients, and the importance of adapting to new operating systems, viewing AI as the next evolution in this space. (02:54:56) - Brynn Putnam, founder and CEO of Board, introduces the first face-to-face gaming console that merges board and video games using a 24-inch touchscreen capable of recognizing physical game pieces. She shares that the inspiration stemmed from her desire to create an intuitive, inclusive gaming experience for her diverse family, ranging from ages 2 to 21. Putnam emphasizes the importance of controlling hardware, software, and game development to ensure a seamless user experience, while also expressing plans to open the platform for external developers to create new games. (03:05:05) - George Kurtz, founder and CEO of CrowdStrike, a leading cybersecurity firm, discusses the company's partnership with NVIDIA to enhance AI-driven security solutions, emphasizing the integration of CrowdStrike's AI agent, Charlotte, with NVIDIA's Nemotron models to improve threat detection at the edge. He highlights the role of AI in augmenting security analysts' capabilities, allowing them to manage multiple AI agents efficiently, and addresses the emergence of autonomous malware that leverages generative AI to adapt and spread without direct control. Additionally, Kurtz touches on CrowdStrike's involvement in motorsports as part of its brand strategy, drawing parallels between the speed and technology in racing and cybersecurity. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jordi Hays?

  You're watching TVP.

• 0:02John Coogan?

  Today is Wednesday, October 29th, 2025. We are live from the TVP and Ultra Dome.

• 0:06Jordi Hays?

  The fortress of finance.

• 0:07John Coogan?

  The temple of technology.

• 0:09Jordi Hays?

  The capital of capital.

• 0:11John Coogan?

  One act.

• 0:11Jordi Hays?

  Look what I got here.

• 0:12John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. What do you have?

• 0:13Jordi Hays?

  Look what I got here. Our dear friend, Siki Chen, friend of the show, made a hot sauce for his company, Runway, and he sent it to us. Runway is, has so much cash on their balance sheet that they made a hot sauce called Burn Rate.

• 0:30John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 0:31Jordi Hays?

  And it has a real hundred dollar bill as part of the packaging. So, thank you to Siki.

• 0:39John Coogan?

  This is incredible because.

• 0:41Jordi Hays?

  The execution here is crazy. I mean, look at, look at this box. I don't think we've ever seen.

• 0:44John Coogan?

  So he really, he really gave us a hundred bucks here. This is remarkable.

• 0:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Except, of course, you can never spend it.

• 0:51John Coogan?

  It is. Wait, why not?

• 0:52Jordi Hays?

  I mean, you technically could. You could technically.

• 0:54John Coogan?

  Because I owe, I owe someone a hundred dollars or I'm, I'm going to owe someone a hundred dollars.

• 0:59Jordi Hays?

  Oh.

• 1:00John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. Because I made a side bet on whether you.

• 1:03Jordi Hays?

  I was making a bet on something and then John made a derivative bet.

• 1:06John Coogan?

  Exactly. On whether or not Jordy would win his bet.

• 1:10Jordi Hays?

  And I'm underperforming.

• 1:12John Coogan?

  It's not looking good. And so.

• 1:14Jordi Hays?

  And so, yeah, you're gonna need a hundred bucks.

• 1:16John Coogan?

  Send this over to, to Dylan and Briscotta, who I probably owe a hundred dollars by the end of the.

• 1:20Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but, uh, but very, very cool activation from, uh, Siki and the Runway team. And, uh, thank, thank you for sharing. I won't spend it. We'll keep it here on the desk.

• 1:28John Coogan?

  I will be gifted.

• 1:29Jordi Hays?

  John will be, John will be putting it.

• 1:31John Coogan?

  I will be using this to pay off my gambling debts.

• 1:34Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but anyways, it's good to be back. Uh, we missed, uh, missed everyone in the chat yesterday when we're on the road.

• 1:38John Coogan?

  It's always brutal.

• 1:39Jordi Hays?

  Have a visual of the chat and we are very, very happy to be back. Uh, the Fed, uh, two minutes ago came out and announced, um, that, uh, the Fed cut borrowing costs by a quarter of a percentage point for the second.

• 1:53John Coogan?

  Tyler's.

• 1:53Jordi Hays?

  The, the studio goes crazy.

• 1:56John Coogan?

  The studio goes crazy. Let's ring the gong.

• 1:57Jordi Hays?

  Nothing like cutting into froth. Uh, yeah, warm it up a little bit, John.

• 2:04Jordi Hays?

  Okay, you kind of went to the top side there.

• 2:07John Coogan?

  I'm worried because I have this dog issue where if I hit it right in the center.

• 2:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:12John Coogan?

  It rings for a really long time.

• 2:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14John Coogan?

  And I think if I hit it here, it doesn't.

• 2:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, alright, well, kind of an ominous hit, I will say.

• 2:22John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:22Jordi Hays?

  It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't that pure, but anyways, this is what, what Polly Market had going into this, they had it at 99% chance of a 25 basis point cut, and they were correct.

• 2:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, so if you had, if you had $100,000 riding on that 99% bet, you would have made roughly $1,000?

• 2:45Jordi Hays?

  Something like that.

• 2:46John Coogan?

  That could be a really good strategy if you're down $1,000. You could win it all back.

• 2:51Jordi Hays?

  Like me, like me right now?

• 2:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:54Jordi Hays?

  Uh, anyways.

• 2:57John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about ramp.com, time is money, save both, easy use corporate cards, bill pay accounting, and a whole lot more, all in one place. The 1X robot launched, and it's burning up the timeline. People love it, people hate it, people have breaking news, it's teleoperated, folks, it's teleoperated, it's not an end-to-end AI machine learning model, and people are, people are, people are saying that like it's breaking news, but...

• 3:21Jordi Hays?

  They're saying that the demos that have been given so far are teleoperated, but I don't think it's shipping.

• 3:25John Coogan?

  Yeah, and I just don't think that's a scoop, I don't think that's a scoop. Wait, no, I think they're gonna ship a teleoperated robot, I think that's the point.

• 3:29Jordi Hays?

  It's entirely teleoperated?

• 3:31John Coogan?

  I think the pitch, yeah, Tyler, you break it down.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Okay, so, so in the video, it seems like there's a lot of tasks that it can do, like, fully autonomously.

• 3:38John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  And then there's some tasks which are a little bit more complex that you can use expert mode.

• 3:42John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Which is when someone will basically be, like, observing the robot as it's doing the thing, and then it can, I assume that they can, like, interfere.

• 3:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, it seems like, it seems like you can pay a human to be in VR and operate your robot for you to do things that it can't just do automatically. And, I don't know, the, like, the, the back and forth here, so Joanna Stern at the, in the, at the Wall Street Journal... Got a whole demo of it. Said, "I tried the robot that's coming to live with you. It's still part human. First, it needs to be controlled by a human in your home. Is that cool with you?" Obviously, there's privacy discussions here. The big, like, bombshell post right now is from MKBHD, who got 12,000 likes on a post, saying, "So, to be clear, this is a preorder

• 4:28John Coogan?

  for humanoid home robot that will cost $20,000 or $500 per month when it maybe ships next year, and it's currently not finished. Joanna Stern got to do a demo, and in its current state, 100% of its actions are teleoperated. So, of the tests that she did,

• 4:45Jordi Hays?

  That's, yeah.

• 4:46John Coogan?

  They were teleo... All the impressive stuff was teleoperated.

• 4:48Jordi Hays?

  But I think anybody that's buying the robot today or pre-ordering it assumes that there will be some tasks that it can do that's non-teleoperated.

• 4:58John Coogan?

  Sure. I don't really know. I don't think people will be buying it because of that. I think people will buy it and say, "Yeah, I'm paying $20K, and then I'm also paying $2 an hour for someone to teleoperate this thing and actually do the dishes effectively, and sit there until the dishes are done." As opposed to, "Yeah, it has some, like, basic stuff. I can chat with it." I don't think people will be driven by that. And also, I just don't think that the whole... It's basically being framed as this, like, big reveal, like, "Oh, it's actually teleoperated," when I think that it's just, that's not that much of a bombshell.

• 5:33Jordi Hays?

  No, I'm a huge teleoperation bull.

• 5:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:36Jordi Hays?

  I think that it's... Even if you're just thinking about a use case for somebody who's like, "Yeah, every once in a while, I come home late, and I want to put food in my dog's bowl, and I can just teleoperate my robot and go..."

• 5:48John Coogan?

  Oh, teleoperate your own robot? I hadn't thought of that.

• 5:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, teleoperating your own robot. Like, "Oh, I'm coming home in a little bit. I want to, like, open the window. I want to open, like, the door to bring in some air," or something like that. So, I do think it's...

• 6:00John Coogan?

  Oh, look, you can teleoperate a Porsche. You put the robot in the Porsche, and then you are driving the car.

• 6:07Jordi Hays?

  There we go.

• 6:08John Coogan?

  Remotely. I'm sure there won't be any problem operating the three pedals.

• 6:13Jordi Hays?

  So...

• 6:14John Coogan?

  At 75 miles an hour.

• 6:15Jordi Hays?

  If somebody maybe had a few too many drinks.

• 6:17John Coogan?

  You could put this...

• 6:18Jordi Hays?

  And so, they legally couldn't operate a vehicle.

• 6:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:21Jordi Hays?

  Could they teleoperate on their phone a robot that was driving the vehicle?

• 6:25John Coogan?

  Absolutely. They're sitting in the passenger seat. I was teller operating.

• 6:32Jordi Hays?

  I've just been sitting here on my phone. I don't know. You gotta take this up with him.

• 6:36John Coogan?

  I love the idea of.

• 6:37Jordi Hays?

  Okay, so here's the things. Here's the thing. Let's play out a scenario. So one, I think I love that this robot looks unique. I think they have like a, I love the color choices that they've used. It's very kind of like skims adjacent almost like they've created a whole kind of cool brand world.

• 6:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, definitely feels like.

• 6:55Jordi Hays?

  And this is a new take on a robot.

• 6:59Jordi Hays?

  And they're going for cute, but if this thing is being teleoperated in your kitchen, let's say it's loading like dirty dishes from your sink into the, or from your table into your dishwasher. And then it picks up a big knife. And it just starts moving over and then it just pauses there. You look over at your robot and it's just sitting there looking at you like this. With the knife in its hand, are you not gonna get a little freaked out? This thing, this thing looks cute, but the second it's got like a kitchen knife in its hand and it's looking at you, does it really look that cute?

• 7:37John Coogan?

  Is it cute? I think it's the cutest robot, the cutest humanoid robot I've seen demoed. The question is like, yeah, there's like this uncanny valley of like actually going cute because like I don't, I don't have a problem with just a like. I, I think if you went to the Optimus team and you went to, and you went to Elon and you said like, hey, what's your goal for the design of Optimus? I don't know that Elon would say. It's my goal to make it cute. He might be like, no, it's like the Cybertruck is not designed to be a cute little Volkswagen Beetle. Like it's meant to look cool and badass and like it'd been awesome, right? It's meant to look sick.

• 8:18John Coogan?

  And I, and I think that there are different, there are different like optimization vectors to actually go down. The 1X team is clearly going down the cute route, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's like the actual solution to what will get adoption. So I don't know. I think that they, I would give this like an eight out of 10 on the cute scale.

• 8:40Jordi Hays?

  I'm giving it an eight out of 10 too, until it picks up the kitchen knife.

• 8:43John Coogan?

  And then it goes down.

• 8:45Jordi Hays?

  I'm just saying, I'm saying in certain contexts, it's gonna look really scary.

• 8:49John Coogan?

  But is there, so, so, so, yeah, but, but, but like walk through that, like what?

• 8:53Jordi Hays?

  Something about, something about an eyes, eye without a mouth.

• 8:56John Coogan?

  Eye without a mouth is maybe an odd choice, yeah.

• 8:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, it just looks, it looks fundamentally a little bit demonic, not having any other.

• 9:04John Coogan?

  But yeah, if you add the mouth, then you get more uncanny valley, right? Isn't that the risk? That as you.

• 9:10Jordi Hays?

  One thing I don't understand is the pricing strategy, so $499 a month.

• 9:16John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 9:17Jordi Hays?

  Or 20 grand.

• 9:18John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 9:19Jordi Hays?

  Who pays the 20 grand when you could get? Do you think this thing will be the best robot you could possibly have for 40 months straight? When there's a bunch of companies coming online with robots, like wouldn't the default be like? Okay, humanoids are gonna progress rapidly. I'd rather like effectively lease one. And know that in 40 months, I could get one that's gonna be like significantly better.

• 9:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, I would definitely be a leaser. I'd be happy to be a leaser.

• 9:48Jordi Hays?

  Just like Satya.

• 9:49John Coogan?

  Yeah. Uh, let me tell you about Restream, one livestream, 30 plus destinations, multi-stream, reach your audience wherever they are. Uh, Tyler, what, what, you're not afraid of this thing?

• 9:58Speaker 02

  It's sick. Well, no, okay, so a couple of reasons I'm not afraid of it.

• 10:01John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Um, one, it's pretty small, right?

• 10:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, 60 pounds, right?

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, 60 pound, it's 66 pounds.

• 10:06John Coogan?

  Oh, true, you could totally like roundhouse kick this thing out the window, no problem.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Tiny little, you know, guy, you could push him over.

• 10:13John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Um, also, it seemed, I mean, nothing, I haven't seen any videos of it like really moving quickly at all.

• 10:19John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  So I, I'm not afraid that it's gonna like get the jump on me.

• 10:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  If it has the knife, I, I think I can run faster than it.

• 10:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  And, yeah, I'm, I guess I, I would be a little bit scared if it's being teleoperated. I don't know who's, who's teleoperated.

• 10:33Jordi Hays?

  What about in your sleep?

• 10:34John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Lock the door.

• 10:38John Coogan?

  Yeah, you could just lock this thing in, in, in like a closet at night or something. Can't really get out.

• 10:45Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's gonna be a whole new world when people are like, you know, I'm going to sleep. I'm paying expert mode to have my, you know, somebody in my house at the humanoid.

• 10:53John Coogan?

  I mean, I, I, I'm just not that worried about it because like, um, it has been possible to like, the, the, like, there was some movie about this where like, uh, the AI, oh, it's Fast and Furious. In Fast and Furious, like, doesn't, isn't there an AI that takes over? No, you won't know. But, uh, I, I think that there's an AI that takes over the cars and like drives the cars fast and like crashes the cars. There's been other movies where like the Teslas have been teleoperated to crash into each other. There was that movie about the, about like the doomsday where they all go in the bunker. I forget what movie this is, but, um, there's some, ah, what movie is that? I think Obama produced it. I'm not kidding about that. Uh, the.

• 11:34Jordi Hays?

  Is it Don't Look Up?

• 11:35John Coogan?

  It's not Don't Look Up. It was like from the same era. What was it? Is that it? No, it's not Leave the World Behind. Oh, yeah, it is. It's Leave the World Behind. Yeah. And there's that scene where all the Teslas are, are coming and they're all crashing into each other. Like, that's been possible for a while, but the economic incentives are just such that like, no one's actually been able to just like, like, there, there, there's no one out there that's just like, oh, I just want to like kill someone randomly and I'm gonna hack all of Tesla's system to like take over your car. Uh, it just, it, it feels like something that's like definitely possible, but it would require like billions of dollars to actually take over. And at the end of the day, a lot of people just want to make money.

• 12:19John Coogan?

  And so they're like, if I have the ability to go and, and hack into Tesla's network and steal the cars, it's like, I can probably just build a car company or something.

• 12:28Jordi Hays?

  So, some more, uh, we're, we're not, you know, neo factual media here.

• 12:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 12:33Jordi Hays?

  But, uh, I do have some facts here from their FAQ. Will my Neo be fully autonomous? Neo works autonomously by default. For any chore request it doesn't know, you can schedule a 1X expert to guide it, helping Neo learn while getting the job done. Uh, who are the 1X experts? 1X employees physically present in the USA.

• 12:52John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 12:52Jordi Hays?

  So that's interesting. And then they're also manufacturing Neo in California, which is significant. So my sense is that the unit economics on these are going to be like really, really, really rough initially.

• 13:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:08Jordi Hays?

  Because these, you know, 1X experts in the USA are by default going to be making a lot more than like $2 an hour.

• 13:13John Coogan?

  Less minimum wage.

• 13:14Jordi Hays?

  But I guess it, you know, it's going to allow Neo to just get better at a variety of tasks. And so they would be training people to tell or operate, or they'd be paying people to tell or operate them anyways.

• 13:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:26Jordi Hays?

  And at least they can recoup a little bit of the cost.

• 13:30John Coogan?

  It's going to be really expensive. This was like, the end of my take was like, the, the magic here is like, it's half actually figure out the technology and half like financial engineering. Because you have to do this extremely delicate dance where you keep the capital coming in and burn and burn and burn and you're probably burning more every year for a really long time. And then at the end, you get the incredible reward, but you have to burn for so long.

• 13:58Jordi Hays?

  Get ready to lose capital.

• 14:00John Coogan?

  And we saw this with, we saw this with Waymo. Waymo was founded in 2009. It's been 16 years. And like, there's been some report that like, in San Francisco.

• 14:11Jordi Hays?

  They're never going to get the cars cheap enough.

• 14:12John Coogan?

  Exactly. In San Francisco, I think they do have positive unit economics in this like very one, in this narrow area. But it's not like a cash cow yet. It's not Google search, right? Which, which took like two years before it was throwing off cash, basically. Not really, but certainly not 16 years to scale that business. And then you look at VR. How much money has Mark Zuckerberg invested in the metaverse? How much has, how much money has Reality Labs burned without, without it turning into a cash cow? Like they're not, they're still not making money off of Reality Labs. And it was the same thing with AI. Like you look at the Satya Nadella deal, like the $1 billion in 2019, like that business

• 14:56John Coogan?

  was not making money and it had been around for five years already. The company was founded in what 2015, I think, OpenAI and so, or the nonprofit was. And so you have, you have these, when you're going after these like frontier technologies, these really broad moonshots, you just wind up burning money for a decade potentially. And can you stay in the game as a venture backed company? It's really, really hard, but at the same time, these types of moonshots are exactly what venture capitalists should be going after. Like this is the goal of venture capital. Quickly, let me tell you about Privy, wallet infrastructure for every bank. Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rails, securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions, integrate on-chain infrastructure, all through one simple

• 15:38Jordi Hays?

  It's interesting that Figure AI, Figure Robotics has pivoted their marketing, external marketing at least, to being entirely focused on home help.

• 15:48John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 15:49Jordi Hays?

  So the homepage now, it says the future of home help is here. Figure 3 is a general purpose humanoid robot for every day.

• 15:56John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 15:56Jordi Hays?

  So.

• 15:57John Coogan?

  Wildly different than Boston Dynamics. So if you look at Boston Dynamics websites, they're saying, we are trusted as one of the top robotics companies by DHL, BP, National Grid, Woodside Energy, Maersk. Like they went industrial level, they went enterprise and they even have some that are like three axis robotic arms. And then they do have the robot dog and they say, yeah, let, let the dog walk around and pick up trash or, or, or check in on, you know, the, the quality of your, of your, you know, oil and gas infrastructure or your mine.

• 16:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 16:35John Coogan?

  You know, walk around and, and assess and do surveys.

• 16:39Jordi Hays?

  You know, Boston Dynamics is apparently 80% owned by Hyundai and SoftBank owns the other 20%.

• 16:48John Coogan?

  It's such a remarkable company because Google owned it at one point, I believe. And it's changed hands a few times, but never really found like a flywheel to take off. But they've definitely like manufactured like real robots. It's more just about have they found the actual flywheel for will people, are they solving a problem? That's really widespread and can they sell the robot and then funnel the money back into selling more of the robots? And and get something really, really, really broadly deployed. It hasn't really happened yet. But I mean, they should be in a good position to do it.

• 17:28John Coogan?

  The the sort of like black pill, I suppose, is that Boston Dynamics was never really set up as this like, okay, we're going to do the the big transformer model, the end to end machine learning model. We're going to let, you know, scale, we're going to be aligned with with the scale of the training run. Very much more so on the actual like, let's design the algorithms and and choreograph the movements more than let lean into like the bitter lesson. Like it, the Boston Dynamics feels like a pre bitter lesson pilling company or something like that.

• 18:04John Coogan?

  But I mean, Figure AI claims to have done end to end machine learning, no tell operation for household tasks. Like that is the core claim of Figure. And but I think what's different is that they're not letting, I don't think that Figures let the Wall Street Journal take it for a spin. And I also don't think that they've actually put up a website where you can just buy one or at least put down a reservation. So this does feel like One X is moving more aggressively than Figure towards actually delivering something.

• 18:36Jordi Hays?

  Shipping.

• 18:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, towards shipping, exactly.

• 18:40John Coogan?

  The other, the other interesting thing about this.

• 18:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and and, you know, I'm, I'm expecting we'll see more fundraising news out of One X.

• 18:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, there's rumor that they're trying to raise it 10 billion.

• 18:52Jordi Hays?

  The pressure from, the pressure on Figure to perform, who's already marked valued by by their latest investors at close to 40 billion.

• 19:03John Coogan?

  40 billion, that's right.

• 19:04Jordi Hays?

  You know, they, they don't have.

• 19:08Jordi Hays?

  Uh, they gotta really come, I mean, figure three, whatever robot they ship is going to um be heavily reviewed.

• 19:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, it is, it is odd setting the expectations that like we're already on the third iteration. But I guess, I guess they have said that they've shipped because they've shipped to that BMW plant and they've done some different tests here and there.

• 19:29Jordi Hays?

  Which uh, the Journal had coverage this year earlier on what was actually happening at the BMW plant.

• 19:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, that said it was like mostly teleoperated, sort of like narrow. It was not like, oh yeah, BMWs are now.

• 19:40Jordi Hays?

  And then figure likes, did they sue the Journal? Or they, they sued Fortune?

• 19:45John Coogan?

  Fortune, is that it?

• 19:46Jordi Hays?

  They had to defend, they had to defend their business practices.

• 19:50John Coogan?

  Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, the, the vibes at 1X are great. I think people are enjoying it. And it seems like they've been, I don't know, they've, they've just been upfront about the way that they're building the company, what they're doing. They haven't been, it, it feels like they, they, 1X has never been over their skis in terms of promises. Which is why I think my reaction to the MKBHD post was.

• 20:14Jordi Hays?

  And they were always focused, they were always on the, on the phone. Or sorry, sorry, focused on the home.

• 20:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, focused on the home. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I think, I think MKBHD is, is correct in his assessment that like, it is risky to go put down $20,000 for a product that hasn't shipped and, and isn't really live and like, there's a lot of promises around. This happens all the time. And from MKBHD's perspective, he's looking at his, his audience of uh, consumer electronics buyers and saying, well, my audience got burned by the Rabbit R1. They got burned by the, the humane AI pin. They got burned by Friend, where there were a number of like AI hardware companies.

• 20:57Jordi Hays?

  Sort of low stakes ones, too, that were like a couple hundred bucks.

• 20:59John Coogan?

  Exactly. But even then, from the MKBHD perspective, the, the claims, the marketing claims, when the product was announced, did not match what MKBHD reviewed when he got the product. And it, this happened a few times. Uh, I'm not sure about the exact companies, but this happened. A few times where where someone stood on stage and said, this thing is going to be amazing at doing X, Y, and Z. MKBD reviews it and he's like, it barely does that. And so I understand where he's coming from saying like, hey, this is a preorder. It's a lot of money. Uh, it's the product's not done and it's currently teleoperated. Like, don't go into this thinking that you're getting Wally, this or like some super AGI robot.

• 21:44John Coogan?

  Like, you gotta be careful and you gotta know that this is like maybe dev kit level.

• 21:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I just think this is for this feels like a it will be a polished enough product for hardcore enthusiasts and kind of hackers.

• 21:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Jordi Hays?

  And I think that that is probably the right go to market here. People that are understand, hey, this thing is not going to do everything out of the box immediately.

• 22:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:08Jordi Hays?

  I'm gonna have to work on making it better.

• 22:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:11Jordi Hays?

  Training it. Uh, but if it can get, if it can reliably like clean up after dinner.

• 22:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:18Jordi Hays?

  Or put away the kids' toys, you know, uh, I think every, every parent deals with this, like, you know, if my kids are, are in the house for more than 20 minutes. There's just like toys everywhere.

• 22:32John Coogan?

  We have to put this guy in the seat of a nine 11.

• 22:37Jordi Hays?

  We'll do it. We will be the first, uh, 1X team, we volunteer to be the first people to track a Neo. So, uh, I love this post from, uh, Matt Slotnick, who's been on a tear. Uh, he, he quoted the announcement and said, can't wait to hook this bad boy up to a reasoning model and 11 labs and send it door to door selling knives.

• 22:59John Coogan?

  The funny thing is like, it is, it already is kind of hooked up to a reasoning model and I believe it speaks and whatnot. It definitely has the ability to, to, you get, you get most of the AI assistant, the current state of the art AI assistant stuff out of the box, which could actually be beneficial in the same way that, you know, you have an Amazon Echo or, uh, Apple's new tabletop robot. Uh, having, just having an, an always on LLM around is a benefit to some people, even if it's just walking around, just kind of looking cute.

• 23:29Jordi Hays?

  My, my, so, so something I.

• 23:33Jordi Hays?

  My expectation here, and I don't say this to be negative. You know, all these products have to start somewhere. They just have to get into homes, start doing work, start getting that feedback, start getting more, more training data. But I, my, my concern is that having a humanoid in the first, at least few years, will be like having a four-year-old.

• 23:55John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 23:56Jordi Hays?

  Helping you, where like, a four-year-old can like pick up stuff from,

• 24:03Jordi Hays?

  a four-year-old can do a lot of things, but they're not necessarily like super efficient, right? They can be slow, they can be distracted, they can just stop.

• 24:11John Coogan?

  I'm just imagining being like, oh yeah, wow, I just had like a fantastic dinner. Twenty of my closest friends came over. We had a dozen bottles of wine. It was great. Hey Neo, can you clean those 25 wine glasses up? And it's like, no problem, boss. Smash, smash, smash. Just shattering everything. It's just like slipping on the glass and like falling down.

• 24:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and one of the, and one of the marketing videos, they have the Neo like carrying boxes around the house like after the owner.

• 24:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:45Jordi Hays?

  And you can just imagine like if you're trying, if you're, if you ask like a four-year-old, yeah, just pick up that, those three boxes and carry them upstairs with me.

• 24:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Jordi Hays?

  It's like they're dropping them all over the place, you know?

• 24:57John Coogan?

  Yeah. No, I mean, I, I, I think that, like, it's definitely, you, you, you're, you use the phrase like you're training this thing. And I think like, you are, this feels like almost like the Oculus DK2, the developer kit too. It's like, if you do this, if you sign up for this, you should see it as you're helping pull forward the future. You're basically giving them training data. You gotta be ready for the rough edges. You gotta go into this knowing that you're the, you're the early adopter, but you're supporting something that's really, really cool.

• 25:31Jordi Hays?

  You're a part of creating the future.

• 25:34John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly. And so there's a lot that's, that's really cool to like.

• 25:38Jordi Hays?

  Box in the chat. They should sell this to elder care centers and max out the Medicare reimbursement box. Not even joking. I could see that. Hopefully, hopefully doing that within, within the guidelines.

• 25:50John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, if you want a humanoid robot for software engineering, head over to cognition. They're the makers of Devon.

• 25:58John Coogan?

  The AI software engineer crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. It's a whole team. Um, what else?

• 26:06Jordi Hays?

  Uh, wireless says buy the robot, get hired as a remote robot operator, become your own robot, get paid to do chores and chill in your own house.

• 26:19John Coogan?

  That's actually hilarious. Buy the robot.

• 26:22Jordi Hays?

  This is the job of the future, folks.

• 26:24John Coogan?

  Yes, you go to work. No, that just depends on what their economics are. Cause if they have negative unit economics, you can go work at 1X.

• 26:33Jordi Hays?

  Maybe it's a good way to get health insurance.

• 26:34John Coogan?

  It is. It is fascinating that they're, that they're hiring, uh, the remote tell operators in the United States. Obviously the like over time, you would imagine that even, even if it's not 1X, someone will be doing remote tell operation across border and that looks like the, you know, deindustrialization story all over again. I would imagine that it becomes a political issue at the same time. It's not going to become a political issue until there's like hundreds of thousands of these in the streets.

• 27:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. And I, I, I still think that even a competent humanoid that can be teleoperated by itself can be Matt, can be a total game changer because what if you want to be able to, let's say somebody needs to like, look after a parent, right? If you can, if you can buy them like, you know, a robot, put it in their home. And if you, they need help with something, you can just teleport there.

• 27:31John Coogan?

  If your parent wants to go for a canyon run.

• 27:35Jordi Hays?

  You can take them out for a drive.

• 27:36John Coogan?

  On a Sunday.

• 27:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 27:37John Coogan?

  You can have the robot drive the nine, nine, nine, nine, two.

• 27:41Jordi Hays?

  GT three.

• 27:41John Coogan?

  GT three RS through the canyons.

• 27:43Jordi Hays?

  Dot two.

• 27:44John Coogan?

  Dot two, dot two. Sorry, Tyler, what did you say?

• 27:47Jordi Hays?

  But also, but also more, more seriously, it's like, if you, if you could hire in LA.

• 27:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:51Jordi Hays?

  Like, uh, house cleaners today get paid a much probably higher rate than some random place elsewhere in America.

• 28:00John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 28:01Jordi Hays?

  And so somebody could live elsewhere, but like be a house cleaner in LA.

• 28:05John Coogan?

  It's interesting. Yeah.

• 28:06Jordi Hays?

  And.

• 28:07John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's the same. It's the remote. It's the remote work story. It becomes a global labor pool. It's a huge supply shock. So prices go down. None of this happens overnight, but eventually it will become a hot button issue. Tyler, what do you think?

• 28:19Speaker 02

  I would like to see them go the Uber route, right? You saw those tasks that drivers can do in between rides. So then they can just put on the VR headset if they don't have a ride currently, then they just teleoperate for a little bit. And then, you know, maybe they're only halfway through their task when the next drive comes in, then someone else just. Because we don't know who's actually behind the robot. So it could be multiple people.

• 28:39John Coogan?

  It's true. Yeah. I don't know. It's gonna be interesting.

• 28:44Jordi Hays?

  Abdul says Zuckerberg's clanker watching yours and your wife's clanker in 2035.

• 28:49John Coogan?

  There's a clanker outside the, outside the window. Yes, clankers are gonna be, the clanker slurs are gonna be through the roof over the next few years. All the experts are at the One X offices. Very smart move by them. I feel like this is, this is, this is a very, very like shrewd move because like if they were saying, even no matter where they pick, if it wasn't America, it would just be a political football immediately. I mean, we saw, did you see Bernie Sanders talking about friend.com? You saw this? That was crazy. It's like Avi has not even broken through meaningfully.

• 29:29John Coogan?

  And yet politicians recognize that robots are coming. And even if Avi isn't the one who has it completely dialed, like the idea of talking to an AI is already a political issue, which is just remarkable. That's why you should stick to Figma. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. You can get started for free.

• 29:52Jordi Hays?

  Dalton Caldwell hit the timeline to share that whatnot from Y C winter 2020 is now a deck of corn.

• 30:01John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 30:02Jordi Hays?

  Whatnot has raised 225 million at an 11 and a half billion dollar valuation. The company plans to announce on Tuesday, which they announced yesterday. The round comes less than a year after the e-commerce platform raised 265 million at half that valuation and puts its total fundraising at about 968 million. So again, this LA based company.

• 30:22John Coogan?

  Awesome.

• 30:22Jordi Hays?

  I believe.

• 30:25Jordi Hays?

  And

• 30:25John Coogan?

  We've heard about the online shopping stuff.

• 30:27Jordi Hays?

  It seems like live shopping might finally be working.

• 30:30John Coogan?

  In America. We've heard about it in China. Oh, it's so massive in China. We were wondering when it would come to America. Uh, it feels like it must have came.

• 30:39Jordi Hays?

  It's interesting that it seems like it's working and it's not working in as broad, as broad of a set of categories as in China. Like in China, people will just straight up buy like vegetables.

• 30:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Jordi Hays?

  It'll be like selling, people will be selling coconuts live streaming. Here it's like trading cards, sports cards, various collectible toys, thrift type stuff, coins.

• 31:02John Coogan?

  Never used whatnot and I don't know many people that have, but they must have found some powerful niche because uh, 10 billions, no joke. I wonder where it lands. I wonder if this is like a Snapchat sized business or if this can really grow into something that's Amazon Walmart style, like massive, massive, massive. I mean, clearly like they've done a lot of things right. Um, but uh, you know, interesting to see like, like what is the American?

• 31:31John Coogan?

  Uh, what, what is the American, you know, uh, appetite for this product specifically?

• 31:38John Coogan?

  Let's uh.

• 31:40Jordi Hays?

  Take it over to our first guest.

• 31:42John Coogan?

  Guest. Yes.

• 31:45John Coogan?

  Welcome to the stream. Uh, how do I pronounce your name?

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Marcin. Hi.

• 31:51Jordi Hays?

  Marcin.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  I know it's difficult, but Marcin goes a long way. Thanks.

• 31:55John Coogan?

  Thank you so much for joining.

• 31:56Jordi Hays?

  Great to meet you.

• 31:56John Coogan?

  And thank you for staying up late. Uh, we know that you are over in Europe. Uh, if you could please give us an introduction on yourself and uh, some of the research that you've done. We'd love to kind of explore some of the ideas that you've been writing about.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  Sure. Sure. Thank you for having me. So I'm, I'm professor of economics at Kuzemsk University in Warsaw, which is the highest ranked business school in Central Europe. It is sort of the standard of Central Europe, if you will. I also wrote a book that uh, Playing the Polish economic miracle.

• 32:29John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  The the fact that Poland has been the fastest growing economy in Europe and worldwide, except for China, over the last thirty five years.

• 32:37John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  And I've also worked and advised over the past twenty years, almost twenty governments around the world, including most recently India and China. So that also brings a bit of a global perspective to what has been happening in Poland, in the US and around the world.

• 32:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, what what are the key ingredients to to Poland's economic success broadly? If you were to kind of rank the the few key choices that were made or investments.

• 33:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, every it it feels like at least once a month, a chart pops up of of Poland's like GDP growth relative to a bunch of other countries, and it's just absolutely remarkable.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's in a remarkable sort of Hollywood Netflix like story, or you can call it a California like unicorn, because it is an economy that was bankrupt, backward and broken in eighty ninety nine at the at the end of communism and and was poorer than Jamaica, Suriname, Gabon and a couple of other countries. And thirty five years later, it is now richer than Japan, and it will be richer than Spain and Israel next year, which is a remarkable story.

• 33:46John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 33:47Speaker 03

  Um, of sort of unicorn and phoenix like growth. And I think there were a number of ingredients, but one is definitely the the grind, the work habits. Even now, thirty five years into this economic miracle, Poles are the hardest working people among all the rich countries. An average Pole Pole puts in seven hundred more hours of work per year than an average German, that's like twelve hours per week.

• 34:16John Coogan?

  That's incredible.

• 34:16Jordi Hays?

  You're speaking our language. You're speaking our language.

• 34:19John Coogan?

  Is there, wait, but they take me one click upstream from that, like, I can imagine a a a population is more hardworking if you ban things that make it hard to, you know, do leisure. So I I I are there anything? Is are there any pieces of the of the the what the government has done to make hard work more easier to pick? Or or more likely for the population to lean towards? I'm thinking of like Singapore has banned a ton of like drug use, for example. And so I would imagine that Singaporeans work harder because the alternative of going in. Uh, you know, to a rock concert or to like the equivalent of Burning Man isn't on the table.

• 35:03John Coogan?

  Is there anything like that that's actually been caught like cognizant the government said? We want our folks to work harder and then it happened? Or is it just like chance luck of the the Polish people?

• 35:13Speaker 03

  No, it's it's not Singapore. It's a democracy with, would you believe, twenty different governments? Over the past thirty five years from left wing Democrats, right wing Republicans, from Bernie Sanders to Ron Paul. And all and all of them, I think they represented a society that is just hungry for success. And a society that just wants to be richer, or at least as rich and then richer. Than the than the fat cats in Western Europe. And that's exactly what's been happening. There's been a choice of polls who have moved from one third of German income. Uh, thirty five years ago to seventy five, eighty percent of German level of income now. And they wanna get to one hundred and one hundred twenty. And one way of doing it is obviously working hard.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  So an average poll per week works twelve hours more per week than an average German. And even six hours more.

• 36:05Jordi Hays?

  And what's the what's the exact, uh, the exact number? Is it is it fifty hours a week? I don't know how how much time Germans spend working.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  Uh, it's, I don't know. I don't have to pick on Germans. I say hi to all my German friends, but. Uh, you know, Poland continues to believe that that working hard and and there's a lot of opportunities. You know, Poland is part of an open global economy, part of the West, part of the European Union, where we have. Four hundred fifteen million consumers with no borders, no tariffs, no nothing. If you have a good idea, you can win and conquer these markets, particularly from the incumbents. Western European players who very often just lost the hunger for success.

• 36:49John Coogan?

  What's the lesson from the rollout of the internet? I've heard a lot of countries sort of were able to pull forward economic growth by leaning in on high-speed internet, making it more accessible, extra infrastructure investments. How much does the rise and rollout of the internet and like getting that right play into the Polish growth story over the last three decades?

• 37:18Speaker 03

  A big part. And so Poland is a latecomer and also a beneficiary of being backward. You know, when I came to the US for the first time in 1997, I did not know where checks were. I just never, never knew they existed. So Poland moved from a backward communist country straight into swiping credit cards and, and sort of Richard-like payment systems, which we have right now. So, and also brand new 5G and fiber optics. So I think this is the, what they call a rent of backwardness, which is what exactly Poland has leveraged. It has not had any sunk costs in the old infrastructure, which again has happened in, in Western Europe.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  For instance, in Germany, one of the reasons they seem to be losing the, the battle to be competitive in, in electric vehicles is that all the BMWs and Mercedes, they did not want to cannibalize the good business. And so they were late to compete with the Chinese. Poland never had this sunk cost and it went straight into that, into technology, technological frontier.

• 38:26John Coogan?

  How do you, how are, how are you counseling or thinking about sovereign AI? I feel like giving every country, if you want your country to succeed in the, in the 2000s, in the 2010s, you definitely want every citizen to have access to Google. Or every access or to Google search to, you know, cloud documents, the cloud broadly. But you don't need necessarily a data center in your country to access Google or to search the web or have access to the internet. It wasn't, it wasn't that critical to have the actual infrastructure in your borders.

• 39:08John Coogan?

  Now it feels like there's a whole new discussion around you need sovereign AI, you need to be doing the inference within your borders for some reason. And I just, I'm, I don't know that I fully believe that. I feel like you, you want your citizens to use AI, but whether they use it, whether they, you know, jump through a fiber optic cable across the border and access it somewhere else, that doesn't seem like.

• 39:33Jordi Hays?

  I think the push for, the push for sovereign AI.

• 39:36Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 39:36Jordi Hays?

  Is partly out of a fear of this sort of fast takeoff scenario, right?

• 39:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, but yeah, I, I, I've never bought that, but.

• 39:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it does not need to be mutually exclusive. So in Poland, actually every single players is players in the market.

• 39:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  You know, Google, Amazon, Microsoft, these guys have the largest data centers and they're ready to provide AI services to whoever is interested. But at the same time, the, the government is also building redundancy. It's building additional infrastructure, including to host apps that do not even exist in the US. Like for instance, I don't have to have any plastics on me, any ID when I drive, for instance, it's all on my phone. There's a Polish app called, you know, Citizen, where you virtually have most of the things you have needed, it's all on your phone. So it's, it's again, it's an example of how some countries have just moved on and increasingly

• 40:36Speaker 03

  a lot of public services will be done from the phone. It also helps that there is a lot of Polish talent that has actually helped create AI in the first place. I mean, a Polish guy is a chief scientist at OpenAI. One third of the founding engineers of OpenAI were Polish. So, you know, these guys call their moms and call their ex-girlfriends and tell them, look, you really wanna look at ChatGPT and what we're doing because that's the future.

• 41:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 41:06Jordi Hays?

  How is Poland's university system helping to accelerate all these different priorities? It feels like the US is at a unique moment where we've had a very robust academic system, but currently there's somewhat of a, well, not even somewhat, certainly a kind of a conflict between the government and our university system, but then also like a broad distrust of a lot of our institutions.

• 41:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is true, and for all people, most people around the world, including myself, a lot of, I got my PhD in Poland, I became a professor in Poland, but I did my pre-dog and post-dog at Harvard, and I know the US well, and it's obviously still the best place to get the top-quality education. Most Nobel Prize winners come from the US. But some other countries sort of hustle. So Poland has not only outworked its competitors, it has also outeducated its competitors. So for instance, half of young Poles aged 25 to 34 have university education. In Germany, it's only one-third. So that gives you an

• 42:22Speaker 03

  idea. They do not only work hard, they're actually pretty well-educated. It might not be Stanford and Harvard all the time, but this is solid education, as reflected in these OpenAI guys. And finally, Poland also outcompetes, because you get this talent for half-price for what you would pay for it in Germany. A top-notch computer scientist in Poland, whom you can put at Silicon Valley any day, will cost you 75 grand. I guess, back where you're sitting, it would be 200-plus. So it's really this combination of human capital and low labor cost, and being located in the heart of Europe and getting increasingly

• 43:03Speaker 03

  interest from global investors who look at 11 labs. And I saw just a guy who was there just before me. I think he had a hat.

• 43:13Jordi Hays?

  That's right. Tyler's rocking the hat right now. Tyler has the hat, right? What about on the regulation front? What are the ways that Poland has, break down Poland's decision-making around regulation versus maybe other members of the EU?

• 43:31Speaker 03

  So in the EU, you cannot really have much of your own voice on digital matters. So it's actually all been consolidated in Brussels. And the European Commission puts up ideas on behalf of everyone else. That's the same for trade. So for instance, when the European Union cut a deal with Trump, it was the EU that was negotiating on behalf of everyone, not Poland, Germany, or Spain. On digital, it's pretty much the same. And there's ongoing debate whether Europe is just over-regulating, including AI. And I agree, we are over-regulating, or at least there's a perception that Europe is over-regulating, which is killing AI. So I'm hoping that the perception will change.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  And again, newcomers, new guys on the block, like Poland, now the 20th largest economy in the world, richer than Japan, with more than $1 trillion of GDP. Poland will be one of the countries that will be pushing for their regulating, for opening up, because it's exactly what has worked well for this country.

• 44:36Jordi Hays?

  Did you have to ask Brussels if you could come on our podcast?

• 44:41Speaker 03

  No, I'm here as an academic, author of this book, if anyone is interested. No, but no.

• 44:48Jordi Hays?

  Okay, good, okay, good. You're like, I had to apply. It was a 10-hour application to go on the podcast. No, it's not quite that extreme.

• 44:57Speaker 03

  The advantage of the EU is that, for instance, there is now this debate about creating a new regulatory system, where you could set up a company which could immediately work all across Europe under the EU laws. So I think they called it sort of the 28th regime. You could sell your products and services everywhere in the EU without worrying about local regulations. And I think this is the way to go. And I think Poland and our region, all countries in the region, will be pushing for this kind of solutions. We don't want Europe to be sclerotic. We want Europe to be successful. And Poles, who are the most pro-American society in Europe, and proudly also in the world, will be one of the big supporters of these changes.

• 45:43John Coogan?

  What's the mood in Poland around energy? Or what's the, is there any place where Poland differs from Europe? Like other European countries broadly in terms of energy strategy or where energy is going? When I, when I think about the sovereign AI thing, a lot of countries, it just, if you have cheap energy, you should set up an AI factory. Even no matter where you're, when you wind up selling the tokens, that's just a great use of energy these days. But how is Poland thinking about the current energy mix and where that's going and various incentives and trade offs that might differ from other countries?

• 46:24Speaker 03

  So Poland has originally and traditionally been a coal based country. But it's really moved quickly now about only half of the oil energy use comes from coal. And Poland has decided to go all in on, on nuclear and on renewables. So the plan is to pretty much minimize or even eliminate the use of coal within the next decade plus. And then Poland has already decided to build one nuclear plant and, and actually with Westinghouse, American technology. But renewables is the, is the other part of the answer. So there's probably not enough of a surplus now to make Poland into a data center hub. But it's pretty much, but it's pretty much coming.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  In other ways, Poland is a hub, like a lot of Belarusians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks, virtually the whole region is increasingly moving into Warsaw and Poland because this is where things happen. If you want to scale up, if you want to internationalize, if you want to find capital, that's not vil news, that's not means for sure. You really want to come into Warsaw because that's where all the interest is and that's where the action is.

• 47:31John Coogan?

  Cool.

• 47:31Jordi Hays?

  Very, very cool. Well, I cannot wait to, at some point, I'm sure we will do this show from Warsaw.

• 47:37John Coogan?

  Love you.

• 47:38Jordi Hays?

  That will be a fun moment. Thank you so much for joining and breaking it down. Anytime, anytime Poland is in the news, feel free to jump back on the show, be great to, to talk through it.

• 47:47John Coogan?

  Thank you so much.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  Thank you for having me.

• 47:49Jordi Hays?

  Great to meet you.

• 47:49John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon. Bye. Let me tell you about vanta.com automate compliance, manage risk, improve trust continuously. Vanta's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security compliance process and replaces it with continuous automation.

• 48:02Jordi Hays?

  Back on the timeline, Cyan Banister over at Long Journey has gotten a tattoo of the logo of their newest portfolio company, Substrate. We have the founder of Substrate, James Proud, coming on the show in just a little bit. I'm excited for that. And I never knew that my friend, Chris Ovitz, also here in LA, was the one who introduced James, I guess, to Long Journey. And they were, it sounds like, the first check. I don't know that for a fact, but at least very, very early. So, good to see, and I'm excited to meet James.

• 48:43Jordi Hays?

  There's a post here from Semi Analysis, "An all-time classic, we have a serious problem." They're saying this is ASML, talking about Substrate's approach and their new lithography system. So, we can get more info from James in a little bit. But this company was announced yesterday and announced about, was it 100 on a billion? Straight out the gates?

• 49:11John Coogan?

  It was 100 on a billion, straight out of the gate.

• 49:13Jordi Hays?

  Not bad, not bad. Logan Paul was a Series A investor and whatnot. So, he's going from a 90 million to an 11 and a half billion dollar valuation. Not too shabby at all. I know another friend of mine, Ann Skates, was, I believe, also one of the, a part of leading that Series A, if I remember, just not too long ago at all.

• 49:38John Coogan?

  It makes so much sense that Logan Paul would have invested in this company.

• 49:41Jordi Hays?

  He's just like, super into collectibles and...

• 49:44John Coogan?

  Oh, collectibles, but also just social media. He's actually sold a ton of products on social media, on, he's done all sorts of different YouTube videos, The Vine Era. Like, he's seen firsthand every single iteration and turn of what's happening on social media, on content, on commerce. And so, it makes a bunch of sense that he would be like, fine tuned to understand the opportunity here. Although, there were a bunch of companies that were going after this. Very tricky to pick the right one.

• 50:13Jordi Hays?

  Popshop.

• 50:14John Coogan?

  Popshop, are they still around? Do they do okay?

• 50:16Jordi Hays?

  I don't, I don't think so. I think they, well, they still have a website.

• 50:19John Coogan?

  I know, I know a few other companies were trying to come after this exact idea, uh, this live shopping. Uh, I mean, even just live.

• 50:27Jordi Hays?

  No, Popshop, I guess, is, is around.

• 50:29John Coogan?

  Popshop's around still, okay.

• 50:30Jordi Hays?

  Uh, there's somebody live right now selling blind boxes.

• 50:34John Coogan?

  There you go. Hopefully they're selling SaaS. Hopefully they're selling graphite.dev, code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster and get started for free.

• 50:45Jordi Hays?

  This is, uh. Sam Altman said yesterday, an IPO is now the most likely path forward for OpenAI, given the scale of capital the company will need going forward. Uh, no surprises, no surprises there.

• 50:58John Coogan?

  Yes. Uh, it'll be very interesting to hear more comments from Sam Altman and Satya Nadella on what happens over the medium to long term. I'm fascinated by the idea of if, if Microsoft winds up with like a hundred and fifty billion dollar position, maybe that goes up in the public markets. You could be looking at like a two hundred billion dollar position. Like, what is the treasury strategy?

• 51:23Jordi Hays?

  Market sells as soon as the lockup ends.

• 51:26John Coogan?

  Bails immediately. Yeah, no, no, I mean, Microsoft is an OpenAI treasury company.

• 51:29Jordi Hays?

  Thanks for the IP, buddy.

• 51:31John Coogan?

  Microsoft is an OpenAI treasury company.

• 51:33Jordi Hays?

  I'm gonna be trading just based off Rune tweets alone.

• 51:35John Coogan?

  Yes, yeah, you're gonna be trading Microsoft for now. You can do that today because they own.

• 51:40Jordi Hays?

  That's true.

• 51:40John Coogan?

  Uh, they have a hundred and thirty five billion position.

• 51:43Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 51:44John Coogan?

  So it's always an option. But yes, uh, what will, what will Microsoft do, uh, over the medium term? Uh, what, once the company gets out. I would imagine that they don't just hit slam the sell button on day one. I imagine that they, they, they, you know, let that evolve over a long period of time and, and probably, uh, don't crash the stock because that just seems not particularly advantageous. As, you know, silly as it would be.

• 52:10Jordi Hays?

  Um, more important news, uh, there's an abandoned McDonald's that NASA turned into a moon probe picture recovery lab.

• 52:18John Coogan?

  What? What is a moon probe picture recovery lab? Was this, is this from years ago? Like?

• 52:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I, I don't know if it's still operational.

• 52:28John Coogan?

  People are saying.

• 52:29Jordi Hays?

  Moonviews.com.

• 52:30John Coogan?

  McMoon.

• 52:31Jordi Hays?

  The official website of the Lunar Orbiter Image Recovery Project.

• 52:34John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 52:35Jordi Hays?

  And it does indeed look to be in, uh, uh, they're calling it McMoons.

• 52:41John Coogan?

  Is it, is it AI? No?

• 52:43Jordi Hays?

  No, it's not AI. This is a real.

• 52:45John Coogan?

  Wait, wait, wait. This is, this is right by, uh, Google. This is, this, this building is right, uh, next to where Sergey Brin's blimp is built, which we saw yesterday.

• 52:59Jordi Hays?

  Absolutely stunning blimp. I'm so happy. I love seeing blimps. I love airships.

• 53:05John Coogan?

  We, I want to know more. I know Ashley Vance did a whole video interviewing the founder of that company that Sergey partnered with, like the CEO that came in and is actually running the company. Um, and I don't want to sound too rude, but what is the goal of the company? Because blimps have been invented. So it's like, are we just?

• 53:25Jordi Hays?

  We're bringing them back.

• 53:26John Coogan?

  I mean, I love it. I want it to be brought back, I guess, but, uh, it's like, it's a thing that exists already.

• 53:32Jordi Hays?

  Well, there was another, there's another, there's another company. There's a new blimp company called Airship.

• 53:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 53:38Jordi Hays?

  That's a SpaceX team.

• 53:39John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 53:40Jordi Hays?

  X SpaceX team that is trying to leverage airships, blimps for global freight.

• 53:47John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 53:47Jordi Hays?

  And the idea is that like, a lot of exciting things happen when you're not trying to work within waterways, ports, and you can just transport goods, you know, directly, you can imagine directly from China, you just fly over.

• 53:59John Coogan?

  I saw someone who is like a venture capitalist, I believe, like lay out the whole like blimp, uh, bull thesis, uh, very eloquently and, uh, and, and run a bunch of numbers. Seemed pretty interesting. Uh, but it is funny that like your moonshot is a thing that like, well, like we've done it. It's, I guess it's just like.

• 54:18Jordi Hays?

  Your blimp shot?

• 54:19John Coogan?

  Your blimp shot. It, well, it's really just like, okay, we like, like, I guess there is a challenge. The challenge is like make blimps work in the way that trains work or in the ways that containers work. Commercially, like I actually scaled.

• 54:33Jordi Hays?

  Not just as a.

• 54:33John Coogan?

  Cause they never really, yeah.

• 54:34Jordi Hays?

  Because a Goodyear blimp still flies around LA sometimes.

• 54:37John Coogan?

  But there are like truly like six blimps in the entire world or something like that. And so the total market cap of the blimp economy is just nothing. Like it's just a disaster. And so that's the real challenge. I guess the challenge is not, is not make another blimp because we know we can make blimps. Uh, the question is like, can we find something more valuable to do with them such that it scales as a mode of transport? Uh, are you, you're, are you're anti-hot air balloon? Are you anti-blimp? Would you go on a blimp ride?

• 55:10Jordi Hays?

  I would inspect it first.

• 55:11John Coogan?

  You would, you would inspect it? Oh, you feel equipped?

• 55:14Jordi Hays?

  I would use.

• 55:15John Coogan?

  Kick the tires on the blimp?

• 55:16Jordi Hays?

  I would use large language models.

• 55:18John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 55:18Jordi Hays?

  And I would say, how much gram?

• 55:20John Coogan?

  And then, and then you would know, okay, this is a good blimp.

• 55:23Jordi Hays?

  This looks like a good blimp, yeah.

• 55:24John Coogan?

  I don't know. I think, uh, I, I, I would love to, I, I would go in a blimp.

• 55:29Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think, uh, yeah. Blimps, especially with, um, you know, potentially having, uh, like a parachute on your back, you know?

• 55:41John Coogan?

  You're one of the parachute guys? You're like, I, I need a parachute with me. If I'm gonna go up high in my fall.

• 55:46Jordi Hays?

  I don't know. Planes have life jackets in them.

• 55:48John Coogan?

  Those are, those are parachutes.

• 55:50Jordi Hays?

  I know, but it's not the worst idea to have, have a backup plan.

• 55:55John Coogan?

  It is funny that-

• 55:56Jordi Hays?

  What are the odds when you take off on a plane that you're gonna crash into the ocean and need a life jacket?

• 56:01John Coogan?

  Pretty rare.

• 56:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, what are the odds that you're gonna need a parachute on a blimp?

• 56:07John Coogan?

  Probably-

• 56:07Jordi Hays?

  Rare, but not, non-zero.

• 56:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, that is true. It, it, it is funny how, um, there aren't any planes, like, imagine if United was just like-

• 56:17Jordi Hays?

  Zach is coming in with the, the important take here, which is data centers tied to blimps.

• 56:23John Coogan?

  Steampunk data center, so let's go.

• 56:25Jordi Hays?

  Blimp data center.

• 56:27John Coogan?

  That, that might work.

• 56:27Jordi Hays?

  Elon apparently said on the, um, uh, recently that he's, uh, thinking of, he wants Teslas to be like just distributed cloud, basically. So that when it's just parked-

• 56:38John Coogan?

  That was a crazy post.

• 56:40Jordi Hays?

  Providing, um-

• 56:41John Coogan?

  Well, you know who should run a blimp ad? Julius.ai. The AI data analyst that works for you. Connect your data, ask questions in plain English. Chat with your data, get expert level insights in seconds.

• 56:55Jordi Hays?

  Ah.

• 56:56John Coogan?

  Uh, so I, I believe Google had a data center on a container ship that they put out, uh, in the bay a while ago. So this has happened. Uh, it is interesting that there's no, there's no airplane service that is like, we, we actually have parachutes onboard.

• 57:15John Coogan?

  Like, what would that do to the airline economy if United one day was just like, "Yeah, we're putting, we're putting parachutes on all the United planes." Like, they don't do that on JetBlue. They don't do that on American. They don't do that on Delta. Does Delta give you a parachute? No. United gives you a parachute.

• 57:33Jordi Hays?

  I mean, potentially you go to upsell.

• 57:35John Coogan?

  Would that be, would that make you more, would that make you more likely to fly United or less likely? Be honest.

• 57:41Jordi Hays?

  Why are you guys adding parachutes?

• 57:42John Coogan?

  Exactly. It's begging a lot of questions.

• 57:44Jordi Hays?

  No, I, I look at it more as a potential upsell.

• 57:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 57:46Jordi Hays?

  It's like, instead of having to fly into JFK.

• 57:49John Coogan?

  Oh, you think it should be something I have to pay for?

• 57:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's like an extra thousand dollars.

• 57:53John Coogan?

  And I get a parachute.

• 57:54Jordi Hays?

  You can parachute out anywhere over the broader tri-state area.

• 57:57John Coogan?

  Let's you go. Yeah. I, I was just thinking like, like, you know, for, for the price of the ticket, for 200 bucks, you get the life jacket, but for 300 bucks, you get upgraded to the parachute. I think that might be a way to, to just squeeze a couple extra dollars.

• 58:10Jordi Hays?

  I want the, I want the.

• 58:11John Coogan?

  Economy premium.

• 58:12Jordi Hays?

  I wanna, yeah, yeah, I, I want an option for executives that don't have time to go through the airport.

• 58:20John Coogan?

  Airport, yeah.

• 58:20Jordi Hays?

  Drop it into their meeting.

• 58:22John Coogan?

  Yeah. I like that. If United came out and said, "We now have parachutes onboard, and you have a choice. You're flying to New York from LA, and you have a choice between Delta, which does not have parachutes, and United that does have parachutes. Tyler, which one are you picking?"

• 58:42Speaker 02

  I don't think I want my airline to have parachutes.

• 58:45John Coogan?

  Why?

• 58:46Speaker 02

  That makes me way more scared. Why are they adding parachutes now?

• 58:48John Coogan?

  It's a pure upgrade in safety.

• 58:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that's literally like saying I don't want my car to have seatbelts.

• 58:53John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, you put seatbelts in there, you're expecting the car to crash. No. It's just if it happens, we have the seatbelt here. If, if the plane dissolves in the air, you have a parachute on this airline.

• 59:07Jordi Hays?

  The plane dissolves?

• 59:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, if the plane rips open like in Fight Club, which you haven't seen.

• 59:12Jordi Hays?

  Or there's a bunch of, if there's a bunch of snakes on the plane and the, the.

• 59:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:16Speaker 02

  I think it makes more sense on a blimp, because we've seen blimps just blow up in the sky.

• 59:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, true. Planes don't really do that.

• 59:23Jordi Hays?

  False flag.

• 59:23John Coogan?

  Planes are pretty safe. Anyway, I hope no one in the chat is watching on a plane, uh, because that would always be, be rough.

• 59:31Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Caleb Watney, uh, over at IFP.

• 59:38Jordi Hays?

  Says hard to understate what a blow this would be for American leadership in AI if this happens. He's talking about how Trump has suggested he was open to providing China with access to Nvidia's Blackwell chips as part of a trade deal, which would represent a major concession and rile up national security hawks in Washington. We'll be speaking about Blackwell, as Trump said, touting the chip as super duper and years ahead of what was currently available from other countries. He said Nvidia CEO Jensen had recently brought a version of the chip to the Oval Office for him to see. AI bellwether Nvidia shares extended gains to eight and a half percent in Asian trading on the alternative platform Blue Ocean signaling potential further gains when US markets open. They are seemingly en route to a $5 trillion valuation.

• 1:00:23John Coogan?

  I think they hit it, didn't they? We got to pull that up on public.com investing for those to take it seriously. They got multi asset investing.

• 1:00:31Jordi Hays?

  They did. They did. Hit that gong. $5.02 trillion. Okay, that was a better hit. That was a better hit.

• 1:00:41John Coogan?

  It's gonna do the weird ring thing, I think. Yeah, see? It's gonna keep ringing. Because apparently we broke our gong, and this is what happens when you break the gong, is that it just keeps ringing. But that's actually kind of a feature in my mind. I don't know.

• 1:00:53Jordi Hays?

  Feature.

• 1:00:53John Coogan?

  What do you think?

• 1:00:53Jordi Hays?

  Uh, the question here is maybe Trump is doing a little 5D chess and he realized...

• 1:01:03John Coogan?

  I thought this was 6D chess, actually.

• 1:01:04Jordi Hays?

  Could be six, could be seven, could be five.

• 1:01:06John Coogan?

  A little simplistic.

• 1:01:07Jordi Hays?

  You know, it's really hard to say at this stage, but it's possible that he realizes that AI is about infinite slot machines.

• 1:01:14John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:01:15Jordi Hays?

  And he realizes it's actually adult content. It's actually in America's interest to get as many Blackwells to China as possible.

• 1:01:23John Coogan?

  So that they all get one shotted.

• 1:01:25Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 1:01:25John Coogan?

  Yeah. This is the modern information war. This is the cybernetic future war that's happening between America and China. It went from AI is a good thing, so we need to keep the chips in America. We can't let them have them to AI as a bad thing. We gotta get the chips out of America.

• 1:01:44Jordi Hays?

  You can only have the Blackwells if you let every, give a free plan of GPT-4O to every citizen.

• 1:01:53John Coogan?

  And Xi Jinping's just, you're absolutely right.

• 1:01:59John Coogan?

  I would love to give every, every citizen Anni with sexy note.

• 1:02:07John Coogan?

  No, I don't, I don't know. My, my, my take on this has always been like, we, do we actually have slack capacity for chips? Because we've been having the GPU poor debate for a while. Everyone said that, that, you know, oh, we can't make enough chips. We can't build enough data centers. But like, it, it is, it's a lot easier to advocate for, hey, don't sell to China if there truly is unlimited demand in America.

• 1:02:40John Coogan?

  It's a completely different conversation if it's like, well, yeah, actually, like, like AWS and Google and OpenAI, like, they're actually good on Nvidia chips. They don't want to buy anymore. And Nvidia is like, wait, but we made so many of these, we want to sell them. Like, can we sell them to China? You'd be like, well, yeah, because like, that's going to hurt your business a ton if you have to write those down because you made them. Versus, it's just a choice of who you're selling to, and it's zero sum.

• 1:03:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, Jensen does not want to lose the Chinese market. He's been very clear about how frustrated he is about the, the whole situation, but he's been playing nice.

• 1:03:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Jordi Hays?

  The Nvidia just, just, you know, continuing to ramp up despite everyone waking up to the, to how big of a, of a threat, you know, TPUs are to Nvidia. It's interesting timing.

• 1:03:32John Coogan?

  Yeah. Um, yeah, there, there were some more news about TPUs. I think the demand for TPUs like through the roof. Uh, they, they saw some posts about that. Um, in other news, Oliver Cameron, friend of the show, introduced Odyssey 2, instant interactive AI video. Uh, this is general purpose model that instantly imagines 20 FPS video you can interact with in open minded ways. It feels like true sci-fi. Type a few words and AI instantly imagines a video that feels alive. So the, the, the, the browser war is in full swing now. The, uh, the real time video generation wars are in full swing. You got World Labs, you got Odyssey, uh, you got.

• 1:04:16John Coogan?

  Genie 3, I believe, from Google. There are a few companies working on this. I'm personally excited for, you know, where this goes once you get some extra harnessing in there, some extra mechanics. I don't know if this is, I, we need to have Oliver back on the show and talk to him about, is he thinking about going more API-driven? Or does he want to kind of own more of, I mean, yeah, like how much of it needs to be the foundation model company versus the application layer? How much does he need to, does he want to own like the end result or whatever people do with the product? There's a, there's a pretty wide swath of opportunity. Once you have a model that works in a particular way,

• 1:05:00John Coogan?

  you can go set up a short form video app if you want and try and win and build a new social network. But it's all, there's a whole bunch of trade-offs there and a whole bunch of challenges. So clearly a, you know, a next, next step in advancing the model. But a lot of questions about how do you actually monetize this? Is it a prosumer tool? Will people be using this just as better video generation? Because it's faster turnaround, so you can iterate more quickly. There's a whole bunch of benefits there. All the demos here are vertical, interestingly, but the launch video is horizontal. What does that mean? Dig into that. If you want to generate some video, head over to Fall, generative media platform for developers, the world's best generative image, video and audio models,

• 1:05:45John Coogan?

  all in one place, develop and fine tune models with serverless GPUs and on-demand clusters. Toby Lookie was taking shots at AI note takers. He hit the timeline and said, having some AI follow you into your Zoom meetings or Google Meet for taking notes is the digital equivalent of showing up to a meeting with your fly down.

• 1:06:08John Coogan?

  What do you think? You're, you're anti-AI, you're anti-clanker in the group chat.

• 1:06:14Jordi Hays?

  I never let, I'll never let him in.

• 1:06:17John Coogan?

  You never let him in? You never let the clanker in the Zoom room?

• 1:06:20Jordi Hays?

  The clanker, the clankers in the waiting room. It's ready to be let in. Oh, I forgot. Sorry.

• 1:06:27John Coogan?

  This, this, this reply post says, Firefly is waiting in the lobby. And that's where Firefly will stay.

• 1:06:36Jordi Hays?

  Toby's on fire. He said Firefly better fly right into the into E O D D A M N. Fire.

• 1:06:43John Coogan?

  Yeah. So, uh, I don't know. He was, he didn't, he didn't elaborate on why he doesn't like this. A friend of the show, T J Parker, said, uh, maybe it has something to do with the fact that if you're recording every meeting, every meeting is now discoverable. And so if you have some random lawsuit, all of a sudden, you know, there's like leaked tech emails. Imagine that, but for everything you do at work all the time forever. That's what having an AI note taker is in.

• 1:07:12Jordi Hays?

  No, that's, that's why I just wear my friend.

• 1:07:17John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, truly, it is, it is fascinating that like people that we actually got to the outcome where Firefly identifies itself and says like, hey, I'm an AI note taker. I'm here and I'm going to join. As opposed to the alternative, which was just like run clearly on your computer and no one knows.

• 1:07:35Jordi Hays?

  Gold Rock says that using transcription clankers are no go. Oftentimes they're used without all parties consent. That's another one. It's like, if somebody wants to come in to the call and say, hey, for the next 10 minutes, do you mind if I record this so that I don't have to take notes myself? I'm open to like opting in, but just like the default record every single call. Like there's no.

• 1:07:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:59Jordi Hays?

  There's no, there's, it just not, uh, not something I'm interested in doing.

• 1:08:04John Coogan?

  Yeah. Obviously depends a lot on the use case, you know, are you synthesizing takeaways? Is this actually useful? It's probably not a replacement for not actually paying attention during the call. Like, uh, you're not just going to zone out for an hour and then review some meeting notes and be like, oh, I, that was now a productive meeting. Like.

• 1:08:27Jordi Hays?

  I would love to know what percentage of transcripts like ever get read, like the notes.

• 1:08:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:35Jordi Hays?

  Is it like, I would, I would expect it to be a very small percentage that actually get read. So it's like one of those things people are like kind of peace of mind.

• 1:08:46John Coogan?

  I mean, I did, I did have one interaction with a group of friends who had a Zoom call to talk about it. They're, they're all like, uh, everyone's like a content creator. And so they'd have these calls. I couldn't make one. Normally everyone hops on the phone, on the calls, talks about trends, strategies, whatever there's do, whatever they're doing. I couldn't make one of those calls. And so they did have one of the transcripts happen and I was able to read through that. And that was fun. Cause like, I like these friends. And so I was kind of able to, you know, not fully listen to the full call, but get some of the topics like, oh, what's top of mind for my friends? That was kind of cool. Um, but that was definitely something like, it was a meeting that I was looking forward to. So I was happy to, to, you know, enjoy it as a, as a transcript as well.

• 1:09:29John Coogan?

  Cause I would enjoy the meeting if I'd actually attended. Um, but regardless, if you're transcribing a bunch of stuff, if you have a bunch of text, you need to search every byte, you need to use TurboPuffer, serverless vector and full text search, built from first principles on object storage, fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable.

• 1:09:48Jordi Hays?

  Puffin.

• 1:09:48John Coogan?

  We puffin.

• 1:09:49Jordi Hays?

  We puffin.

• 1:09:50John Coogan?

  The golden age of private credit is over. Private credit winter is coming, says high yield Harry. Lenders are quietly rewriting their collateral rules, which suggests a crisis waiting to happen. People have been nervous about private credit booming. Aries has minted seven new billionaires, something like that. Uh, there's been a ton of boom in private credit, ton of boom in, um, in, in debt, debt is coming. Uh, the question is, when will there be a pullback? How much more room does it have to run?

• 1:10:22Jordi Hays?

  There's a reply here from guy named, uh, Jason, who says, that's nice, but I'd prefer not to lose any money. So please make sure the government is prepared to cover all potential losses. If not for everyone, then for me and my cohort specifically, warm regards.

• 1:10:36John Coogan?

  Me and my cohort? What does that mean?

• 1:10:40Jordi Hays?

  Oh, I mean, everybody's got a cohort.

• 1:10:43John Coogan?

  What cohort do you identify with? That's hilarious.

• 1:10:47Jordi Hays?

  Oh, this, this post from.

• 1:10:51John Coogan?

  What did he say?

• 1:10:52Jordi Hays?

  Hilarious. I don't even know what he was replying to.

• 1:10:53John Coogan?

  I don't know what he was replying to because it was deleted.

• 1:10:55Jordi Hays?

  Spaceman live on TVPN. Eyes rolling back in his head.

• 1:11:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, that was a very weird screen grab. I don't know how this screen grab happened, but this is absolutely wild.

• 1:11:08John Coogan?

  What did, uh, what did Baz say? So Baz posted a blog post about you are how you act. He says, "The modern American self is best defined by two enlightenment thinkers who never met, but have been arguing in our heads ever since. Jean-Jacques Rousseau believed in the primacy of the inner self, a core of goodness constantly betrayed by circumstance. In his view, the world corrupts us. We begin pure and only fail because society obligation or expectation pulls us away from who we truly are. Benjamin Franklin saw it differently. For him, there was no such thing as a good person or a bad person, only people who do good things and people who do bad things. Virtue was a habit, not an essence.

• 1:11:52John Coogan?

  Modern America carries both of these ideas, switching between them whenever convenient. We invoke Rousseau when we need forgiveness. I meant well. We invoke Franklin when we need accountability. Show me what you've done." It's almost entirely, it's, it's an almost entirely incompatible pair of philosophies that coexist perfectly in practice because they're both so flattering. One to our intentions, the other to our ambition, but only one of them scales. Fake it until you make it is often dismissed as shallow, but it's closer to Franklin's truth. Faking it law is law, faking it long enough is making it. The repetition of behavior, not the sincerity of belief, is what shapes character. You become the kind of person who does the things you repeatedly do." I agree with that.

• 1:12:38John Coogan?

  Uh, Rousseau invites endless introspection. Franklin invites progress. The first is how you feel is about how you feel. The second is about what you build. I find the Franklin model far more useful, not because it's truer in some cosmic sense, but because it gives you agency. You can't always change how you feel, but you can always decide what to do next. It doesn't take great men to do things, but it is doing things that make men great. Arnold Glasgow. And, uh, you know, some people had some, some jokes, they're poking fun at Boz saying tech bros are re-deriving Sart from First Principles. I haven't read Sart, so I don't know.

• 1:13:22John Coogan?

  Um, but I like, I like reflective posts like that. I think that's a good post. I think that's, I think that's an interesting little like tour of a couple philosophers you might've heard of, but kind of distilling and then recontextualizing these two, uh, these two thinkers. This is a, this is a sweet spot. I've been enjoying writing these like 500 word essays. It's kind of like one little thought packaged up in a couple paragraphs. I'm glad Boz is doing it too.

• 1:13:50Jordi Hays?

  Uh, in other news, bending spoons.

• 1:13:53John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:13:54Jordi Hays?

  Uh, European software conglomerate has acquired America Online, AOL.

• 1:14:01John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:02Jordi Hays?

  Uh, and raised 2.8 billion of debt to get it done. Uh, they say big news. We're acquiring AOL, the iconic web portal and email provider from Yahoo, subject to customary conditions and regulatory approvals. And, uh,

• 1:14:16John Coogan?

  Is this gong worthy?

• 1:14:18Jordi Hays?

  I would, uh, it's, it's painful, uh, that, that America Online will be owned by a European software conglomerate.

• 1:14:26John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:27Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but let's hit the gong for raising 2.8 billion in debt to buy a legacy digital asset. I'm so, we gotta have somebody on from bending spoons because I, uh, I don't, I don't feel like I have a good understanding of this company at all. They acquired Evernote. They acquired WeTransfer.

• 1:14:45John Coogan?

  It's such a funny name for a company.

• 1:14:47Jordi Hays?

  They acquired Vimeo.

• 1:14:48John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:14:49Jordi Hays?

  Uh, so they, uh, are kind of all over the place, but, um,

• 1:14:54John Coogan?

  Matrix inspired? They, in the Matrix, probably?

• 1:14:58Jordi Hays?

  Um, yeah. Interestingly enough, they, uh, I wonder, I wonder what just like AOL's email business is worth. Like, do people, do people pay for?

• 1:15:10Jordi Hays?

  Like pay for that at all or is it entire is the entire business ad space?

• 1:15:16John Coogan?

  AOL. I think there's still people paying. I wouldn't be surprised if there's still people cracking open a CD and being like, I gotta get my internet this month. Do you do either of you remember what I'm talking about? Are you familiar with this?

• 1:15:28Jordi Hays?

  Uh, no.

• 1:15:29John Coogan?

  There, there was a time when you got the internet from a physical disc, basically, which it sounds ridiculous, but basically it was like,

• 1:15:36Jordi Hays?

  How does that?

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  What are you talking about?

• 1:15:38Jordi Hays?

  It's the whole internet is on.

• 1:15:39John Coogan?

  No, no, no, no, no. So basically I, I, I think the way it works is basically you'd open up a magazine and there would be a CD and it would be like AOL. And, and the disc would, would, would claim some sort of like number of minutes. Ben, do you remember this? No, no one remembers this. I'm so old.

• 1:15:57John Coogan?

  And it would be like 7,000 minutes of internet access. And basically what you do is you would put the, is you would put the disc in and then you would pull and then you would install a piece of software that would allow you to access the internet.

• 1:16:14John Coogan?

  The crazy emoji guy. No. And then so on the disc was the software that would, that would like give you a web browser, basically. Because how do you get a web browser if you don't have the internet? You need to install that first. So you would install the AOL.

• 1:16:27Jordi Hays?

  But did you buy a new disc every month?

• 1:16:29John Coogan?

  No, no. So they would give out free trials, basically. And then you would be able to connect to the internet. And, and you would be limited based on the number of minutes that you spent online. Each CD would give you a couple thousand minutes for free, something along those lines. Anyone, uh, anyway, uh, we have our first in-person guest of the show. We have Brian Johnson. Welcome to the stream. He'll go over there. Uh, while he hops on, let me tell you about AI, Google, Google AI Studio, the fastest way from prompt to production with Gemini. Chat with models, vibe code and monitor usage. Thank you.

• 1:17:04Jordi Hays?

  Classic LA story.

• 1:17:06John Coogan?

  Good to see you again.

• 1:17:07Jordi Hays?

  People in LA arrive on time 15 minutes after you normally arrive.

• 1:17:14John Coogan?

  Oh yeah?

• 1:17:15Jordi Hays?

  At least I do, normally.

• 1:17:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's the nature.

• 1:17:17Jordi Hays?

  Hopefully you didn't have too much traffic. It's great to have you here. A big week for you.

• 1:17:22Bryan Johnson?

  It's been a great week for us.

• 1:17:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, congratulations. Sixty million, but break down exactly what happened. What was the impetus for the deal? Take us through the recent history of Blueprint.

• 1:17:32Bryan Johnson?

  I mean, I started this, this is the idea that we are the first generation who won't die. It's kind of a crazy idea. We started this a couple of years ago, and I think a lot of people thought this was kind of an insane thought process. And so we've been hammered away, and I think it's gone from weird to interesting to yesterday was kind of like, now it's accepted and maybe even cool.

• 1:17:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:52Bryan Johnson?

  And so I think we've, it's a, it's a thing now. It's a part of the zeitgeist, and I think it formalizes that we're really going to take a shot at this.

• 1:17:58John Coogan?

  Yeah, so, I mean, there's like the philosophical underpinning where you're, I imagine, you know, in the vein of Kurzweil, like looking at long-term trends, artificial intelligence, compounding, just the value of compounding little gains all over the health system, potentially could, at least in your belief, get us to infinite life and not die, don't die. So you get to that, but then you, you know, at some point you need to instantiate that in a company, in a business, in a suite of products. And so that's what Blueprint is today? Is that the idea of the fundraise? Is that what people are investing in?

• 1:18:36Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, the idea is when somebody says, yes, I want to be healthy, it's pretty hard. You have to go out and you have to navigate a thousand things. You know, like, is this good for me or is it bad for me? And you have people who have conflicting opinions. And so our target customer is somebody who says, I want to be healthy. And we just say, we've got you.

• 1:18:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:54Bryan Johnson?

  We will give you, like, the protein amounts, we'll give you tested and certified foods, we'll give you the exact dose, we'll help you with your prescriptions, we'll give you protocols, like, your autonomous self, like, it's not go navigate the world by yourself, it's we've got you.

• 1:19:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:07Bryan Johnson?

  And we'll do an evidence-based biomarker approach.

• 1:19:09Jordi Hays?

  One of the, I feel like anybody that really gets into health goes through a period where they realize, I, at least at one point, I was like nineteen at the time, realized that it felt like I was spending... Like 50% of all my cognitive power on just like trying to be as healthy as possible. And at a certain point, I realized like this is such an inefficient use of time. Fortunately, you build up some habits and kind of like understanding of what's good and what's bad and what you want to leverage more and and kind of avoid and all that stuff. But I think like make, you know, removing that step from the process of being able to just kind of like default into a system. Walk, can you can you get into a little bit more of like, I remember reading a post at this point

• 1:19:54Jordi Hays?

  from you, maybe it was like a couple of months ago, kind of like talking through the decision making around, you know, where you wanted to take blueprint, why kind of raise capital, all that kind of thing.

• 1:20:05Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, I mean, it was this, I mean, I guess I, my sole objective is try to be sober in this moment. And I really enjoy the perspective of thinking a few hundred years into the future. You look back at this moment and we are giving birth to some kind of superintelligence. We don't know what it is. We don't know what kind of scale, but it's big, it's important. I have neither an opinion that it's positive or negative, it's just significant. And I was really trying to think through, does it even matter if I build anything in the world right now? Or should I work on building the philosophy and the moral framework on like, what does it mean to be intelligent on planet Earth in this part of the galaxy? And I was kind of in the middle of like, as an entrepreneur, do you build or like, which way do you build?

• 1:20:48Bryan Johnson?

  And so I was just reflecting that, am I misallocating my time? And I thought, you know, really blueprint is the practical implementation of this philosophy. Like when you say yes to don't die, you're saying I value existence, I respect existence. And so it's it's less about living forever, it's more about a philosophy of yes, this moment is big. And so what a lot of people don't realize is this endeavor is entirely about AI alignment.

• 1:21:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Bryan Johnson?

  I mean, that's the sole thing happening on planet right now. And so when you take care of yourself, you take care of your body, when you take care of the body, you take care of intelligence, it's this holistic system of we acknowledge existence. So that was it. It was like I was trying to figure out as a human. What do I do on planet Earth right now and how do I spend my time? I'm an entrepreneur. My intuitions are to become an entrepreneur, but I wondered, is that really the right way to do it?

• 1:21:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, what is what does Blueprint look like in a decade? It feels like you're it's such a unique consumer packaged goods business because you can't even call it that. It's like, I mean, I understand that there's like the philosophy and I love that as the brand. But even just in terms of like the business of like what people pay for, there's a lot. And that's just that's just such a contrarian approach to this this category. Because so many people are like, I have an idea. I'm going to make coffee better.

• 1:22:04Bryan Johnson?

  Yes.

• 1:22:04John Coogan?

  I'm going to make a greens powder better. Or I have an opinion about the burger or the meat or the food or the one particular thing. And then they grow and grow and grow. And then five years in, they're like, let's do a line extension. Let's do.

• 1:22:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the CPG trend of the last 10 years was go walk into the gas station. Find a product that's popular and make a version of it that's like 50% healthier. And then you probably have like a nine figure revenue business.

• 1:22:28John Coogan?

  Or make nothing like Thrive Market, Arwan. There's a bunch of companies that have been like, we're just be the seller of everything. How did you land on like, I want to kind of make everything that feels like an immense challenge? I want to walk through all that.

• 1:22:43Bryan Johnson?

  I mean, that's what you know, Karpati was talking about the autonomous systems with Thorkash.

• 1:22:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:46Bryan Johnson?

  Like then, and he and I think very similarly in this way is that if you model out what AI systems will do, they'll probably take on more autonomous responsibility in our lives. We see beginnings where you plug an address into a car and it helps you navigate to the place. You don't think about it much.

• 1:23:01John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:23:01Bryan Johnson?

  We're going to build our autonomous self. Our health will be run on our behalf. So right now we have to chase down all our food with the chase down protocols with the chase down evidence. But it's not going to be that in the future. It will be that it will just be run for us.

• 1:23:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:14Bryan Johnson?

  And as we get measurement, that's more high fidelity. So Blueprint is basically, we're saying, we are going to build your autonomous system of health. And we're going to ride the breakthroughs of science so that as we make better progress in lowering the speed of aging and reversing aging damage, you could just say, I'm in and I'm going to ride with you. And we're going to try to be on the very, very forefront. To help people have the best possible health. So we're just building out autonomous health systems.

• 1:23:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, that feels like super valuable just from the consumer experience of like I'm delegating all of that hassle. I know basically if I buy one from one brand, it's all aligned with one philosophy, which is great. What does that mean on the logistics side? What does that mean on the capex side? What does that mean on the operational cost side? Do you have like 25 different product managers for each niche? Like, what's the shape of the company? This feels like a big challenge.

• 1:24:07Bryan Johnson?

  A very big challenge. We're standing up like 10 different businesses at the same time.

• 1:24:11John Coogan?

  Exactly. Like, there's plenty of people that could have done what you did where they like become famous or they become content creators in one way or another. And then they're like, now I have one product. And you're like, now I have, how many products do you actually have?

• 1:24:23Bryan Johnson?

  Over 20.

• 1:24:24John Coogan?

  Over 20, yeah. And it's clear that like you, probably a lot of that comes from the fact that you've been a successful entrepreneur before. You're like, yeah, I can probably do more than just one. But what actually does the business look like? Does the system look like? Are there cross-selling benefits in retail on day one? Or is this just an e-commerce play on day one? Like, how do you think about the costs and benefits of going multi-product so soon?

• 1:24:49Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, I mean, the thing is that when people want to be healthy, you can't just address one thing. They're still left with 99 things to deal with.

• 1:24:56John Coogan?

  I totally get the consumer value. It makes a ton of sense.

• 1:24:58Bryan Johnson?

  So internally, we're basically building out the infrastructure to deliver every single channel. So digital, food, prescriptions, testing.

• 1:25:06John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:25:07Bryan Johnson?

  So we could say like.

• 1:25:07John Coogan?

  So much stuff.

• 1:25:08Bryan Johnson?

  It is so much stuff. You know, like, this is what I've done this myself.

• 1:25:12John Coogan?

  I know.

• 1:25:12Bryan Johnson?

  You know, like, five years. We've mastered the system for me. And, you know, I've been fighting to achieve the best fire markers in the world. Kind of, in some sense, a like a ridiculous idea.

• 1:25:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:21Bryan Johnson?

  But also, like, it's a new sport. Like, you can imagine it becoming a thing. So, yeah, I mean, basically, we've mastered it. We've built it. Now we're just productizing. So, yeah.

• 1:25:29John Coogan?

  So where are the edges of the?

• 1:25:32Jordi Hays?

  What is, how do you think about, so, so every, every consumer out there has probably at some point or another gone through the frustration of finding a product they love and then watching the company behind it, or sometimes an acquire, just like steadily, just like try to maintain or increase their margins to the point where it's no longer that it might have a similar looking packaging, but it's no longer the same product. Like, Like I imagine like you want blueprint to be the thing that you are reliant on for the majority of your calories, the majority of the supplements you take, the majority of the drugs that you are going to leverage. And so I can imagine like, you know, holding the company to that standard so that you're not having to go anywhere else or realize

• 1:26:17Jordi Hays?

  like, oh, this product would actually be better for me. But like, do you have any kind of like ethos around that? Because that just feels like every, you know, I try to be cognizant of like, when a company goes from founder led to they've exited and the new acquirer is just gonna say like, hey, you know, we could actually source this salt from over here and we're gonna save like 80%. And nobody's really gonna notice because it's gonna taste similar. But then the tests start showing up and it's actually like got lead in it now or whatever.

• 1:26:47Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, exactly right. I mean, I'm blueprint's number one customer. I appreciate it so much. You know, because like we, when we first started doing this project, I was testing everything I put into my body. Air, water, food, like everything. And I learned, first of all, food is guilty until proven innocent. It is so toxic. No matter where you get it.

• 1:27:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, people were freaking out last week when there was that protein powder report came out that a bunch of them had lead in it. And I was like, I, my immediate reaction was like, obviously, a lot of this stuff has lead in it. I mean, like, look at the average chocolate bar has like a ton of lead in it.

• 1:27:21Bryan Johnson?

  And that's like, it's not even, so you can't isolate that one toxin, but there's so many other toxins. So people, they, they grab onto one concept that they understand. It's like, oh, that's bad. There's trace levels of heavy metals in all of our foods. So like, the fact that it's there is not unalarming. It's just, it's out of context, but it's at a level people understand. But you know, the goal is I'm going to, blueprint is my way to try to achieve, you know, this don't die. And so people will be just riding along. We build on population level data. So this is not about Brian Johnson's body. This is about everybody's body. So all ages, both genders. But no, I think we're being meticulous about what we do. And so it will be, the quality will be the best in the world. And so I care about it. I'm consuming all of it myself.

• 1:28:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. What, what, uh, what's the plans on the kind of telemedicine front for, uh, for, uh, kind of interventions or therapies that require, uh, doctors kind of involvement? Is there anything on that front?

• 1:28:16Bryan Johnson?

  We will build an infrastructure to basically when you want a prescription, if you want to go on a GLP-1, we can help you get started, whether you want a large dose or a micro dose.

• 1:28:24John Coogan?

  You're just like, yeah, and also do the lab testing and also like build the, you know, the, I'll, I'll, I'll be mining the metal that gets turned into the needle that injects you with the T O U. Yes. It's like, you want to hold up the entire global economy. I love it. It's good ambition. I, I, I strongly support this. Uh, yeah, I, I was interested in like, like where are the edges of like what you've really, yeah, actually I'm not going to go into that market, but it feels like you'll just continue to work on it until you get to some status where you're like, yeah, actually it's.

• 1:28:56Bryan Johnson?

  It'll be full circle.

• 1:28:57Jordi Hays?

  Would you, would you go into hospitality? Would you create like physical kind of like.

• 1:29:02John Coogan?

  That's what I was thinking. Yeah. If you want, if you want to get a hundred percent of everyone's calories.

• 1:29:05Jordi Hays?

  These European kind of, uh, health retreats that are very like evidence driven and they're testing focused. I could imagine a blueprint retreat center that, that people can visit once a year to.

• 1:29:17Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. We have about a dozen groups around the world that want to stand this up and some of the biggest hotel chains around the world. They, because the thing is they just want credibility. They want to say like, come here, we have this thing structured. When I meet with some of the most powerful people in the world, they're just as clueless as everyone else. It is not a, like people imagine reaching powerful people will just have it solved.

• 1:29:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:37Bryan Johnson?

  That is not the case.

• 1:29:38John Coogan?

  No.

• 1:29:39Bryan Johnson?

  And so, yeah, we are going to stand this up. We probably will not do physical clinics. It's just too much on the real estate and so we'll probably license it out.

• 1:29:44John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:29:45Bryan Johnson?

  We'll probably do the digital model.

• 1:29:46John Coogan?

  Crossfit model almost.

• 1:29:47Bryan Johnson?

  We have trust.

• 1:29:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Bryan Johnson?

  Like we want to have, like, we could do a model across food and clinics where we have this evidence-based approach. So, yeah, I mean, we're, we're kind of in it to just blanket the entire industry.

• 1:29:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:00Bryan Johnson?

  With a framework on how to do things in a credible way that's biomarker-led, evidence-based.

• 1:30:04John Coogan?

  Yeah. Uh, what was the thesis behind the round? $60 million, tons of faces, not the traditional CPG, VCs, private equity folks, like what was the thesis?

• 1:30:16Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. I mean, so I, I've been funding the company myself up until this point.

• 1:30:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:21Bryan Johnson?

  And. You know, I guess I just wanted my friends to come along with me. So these are people I talk to in private.

• 1:30:26John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:30:26Bryan Johnson?

  They enjoy it, they're into it.

• 1:30:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:28Bryan Johnson?

  And I think a lot of people, they have not known how to think about me like, am I legit? Am I not? This is a thing, it's weird. And then they see that list of investors are like, oh shit.

• 1:30:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Bryan Johnson?

  And so like yesterday, I think it was the first day it was like, oh, it's safe to say this is cool.

• 1:30:43John Coogan?

  That's interesting. I feel like that flipped like a long time ago.

• 1:30:46Bryan Johnson?

  Really?

• 1:30:46John Coogan?

  Yeah, I, I, I feel like the, I feel like the, the first like business, I, I, what was the first piece that you did? That was like, I spent $2 million on my health and that went super viral.

• 1:30:56Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, two, two or three years.

• 1:30:57John Coogan?

  That was like two or three years ago.

• 1:30:58Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:58John Coogan?

  I feel like that was the moment where people were like confused. But pretty quickly, people dug into your backstory and were like, oh yeah, you sold them.

• 1:31:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, my, my personal view is, is America has, has over the last few years had so little trust in health institutions. Like if you just went and followed the American Heart Association's guidance, I'd probably die at like 60. And so, so to me, I was always like, you know, knowing how much I, I, you can read about health and you can listen to podcasts and you can listen to what some influencer said in a short form video. But to deeply understand your health, you have to do self experimentation. Everybody is different. And so I always looked at it, you know, you, you always tried to be controversial enough to like generate attention,

• 1:31:46Jordi Hays?

  attract some people that were going to become super fans and lose some people and you were kind of okay with that. But my, my sense was always like, thank you that somebody is going to invest more money than basically anyone else. And just self experimentation and then open source all of that. And now people can buy your olive oil if they want, or they can decide, no, I'm actually going to go on my own journey and try to find some, uh, some product that can fit this requirement. But it felt like such a public benefit that I always wish there was like. A thousand Brian Johnsons that were just all running the same experimentation, open sourcing process versus the biggest thing, we talked about this the other day is health influencers quickly get into, put themselves in a niche and they're like, I'm

• 1:32:30Jordi Hays?

  the, I'm the fasting guy, I'm the HRV guy. And then every single thing becomes about that.

• 1:32:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:37Jordi Hays?

  And it's cool because you can like tap into a world and like kind of accelerate and understand a lot about a category.

• 1:32:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:43Jordi Hays?

  But then in reality, it's not like fasting is the only thing that matters. It's just like one tool. So.

• 1:32:50John Coogan?

  I have another take on that, that maybe I'd like your reaction to. There's also this, this trend in health influence where if I want to blow everyone's brain, I'm going to come in and blow everyone's mind. I'll be like, guess what? I boil it all down. It's a sleep diet and exercise. That's like 99% of what you need to do. And everyone's like, man, this John guy, he's not talking about the crazy supplements. He's just telling it like it is. Sleep, diet, exercise. I did it. I feel great. This is amazing. And then after I've made, you know, one hour of content every week for five years on sleep, diet, exercise, I'm like, you know what? Let's actually talk about like the 17th piece of magnesium you should take or like that. The thing that's, yeah, it is beneficial, but

• 1:33:33John Coogan?

  it's 0.001%. And, and it's still interesting, but it's not going to have the power law effect of like actually start working out or like actually get sleep. And so do you wrestle with that? Do you feel like you have to go back to the basics sometimes? Or, or do you think that there's, there's actually maybe that's not even, that's not even a reasonable critique?

• 1:33:52Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. I think that the, the thing that most people struggle with is doing things they don't want to do. Like they don't want to overeat. They don't want to eat a pint of ice cream. Like they don't want to drink, you know, so.

• 1:34:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Bryan Johnson?

  Those things are really the highest leverage interventions. It's, it's behavioral.

• 1:34:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:11Bryan Johnson?

  And so yes, you can say sleep, that exercise, but you get deep and you then uncover that American, like our American society is one of addiction.

• 1:34:19John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:34:20Bryan Johnson?

  Like the American powers of capitalism have appointed at getting people to be addicted on food.

• 1:34:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:25Bryan Johnson?

  Right? Sugar, nicotine, porn, junk, like all of it. And so this is, if you look at it, so like just from a broad perspective. You begin on Western thought with Plato, Aristotle, Christianity,

• 1:34:36John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:34:36Bryan Johnson?

  Middle Ages, Renaissance, Enlightenment and modern scientific era.

• 1:34:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:41Bryan Johnson?

  Like you look at these big frames, we're due for a major shift. And right now, we're at the tail end. This is like kind of a Dalio kind of thought process of like these big macro trends.

• 1:34:49John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:50Bryan Johnson?

  We're at the end and right now, you know, capitalism was for solving scarcity. We're now compulsive. We're now compulsive.

• 1:34:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:57Bryan Johnson?

  And the idea was democracy was freedom of choice. We now have no longer choice because we're addicted.

• 1:35:02John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:35:02Bryan Johnson?

  So we're really playing on this very big macro frame of we're at different times as species. And so, yes, with that exercise, but in this larger frame,

• 1:35:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:11Bryan Johnson?

  it's about what does it mean to actually be intelligent, make decisions? And you can't when you're addicted to everything.

• 1:35:16John Coogan?

  Yeah. What do you think about some of the longer tail interventions? Like the, the, the, like the third peptide that's not approved yet, but people are already taking it here. It feels like, is this sort of like pseudo-regulated, unregulated biohacking becoming more prevalent? Is that the correct world in a world where the FDA is broken? Or does the FDA need to change? Or how, how, how should we like map the, you know, accelerating advances in science? With maybe stagnation in regulatory? What's your framework for that?

• 1:35:50Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, I mean peptides are very powerful. They're basically drugs.

• 1:35:53John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:35:53Bryan Johnson?

  So you get access to drug-like effect sizes.

• 1:35:55John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:35:55Bryan Johnson?

  Problem is peptides are oftentimes not manufactured to spec. And so you have risks of like putting stuff in your body that you shouldn't be putting in your body.

• 1:36:03John Coogan?

  Like they could have lead in them, just like your chocolate bar could have lead.

• 1:36:06Bryan Johnson?

  Same with stem cells. So like there's a real quality problem.

• 1:36:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:09Bryan Johnson?

  The other problem is peptides, a lot of peptides are not fully well characterized. So typically drugs, you say like, you can do this thing, but also here's a long list of side effects.

• 1:36:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:18Bryan Johnson?

  And that's nice because like, okay, at least I know what the trade-off space is.

• 1:36:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:21Bryan Johnson?

  With these peptides, you don't have the characterization.

• 1:36:23John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:36:24Bryan Johnson?

  And so it's a bigger risk that people experiment. You see a lot of this in bodybuilding. Now you have biohacker, biohackers doing it.

• 1:36:29John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:36:30Bryan Johnson?

  So it's fine. It's just you have to understand it's the wild, wild west.

• 1:36:34John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:36:34Bryan Johnson?

  That may be your game. It may not, but like definitely you want to be cautious.

• 1:36:38John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:36:38Bryan Johnson?

  It's not like it's a safe path, but then there's other things like. You start with the highest level of evidence. You know, sauna is great.

• 1:36:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:44Bryan Johnson?

  But you know, like if you, I've talked about this a lot. If you don't ice the boys in the sauna.

• 1:36:48John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:36:48Bryan Johnson?

  You crush.

• 1:36:49Jordi Hays?

  Can you make a ice pack?

• 1:36:50Bryan Johnson?

  So.

• 1:36:51Jordi Hays?

  I used to, I think we maybe talked about this last time. I used to, there used to be this ice pack on Amazon that was for this use case.

• 1:36:57John Coogan?

  We think it's gone?

• 1:36:57Jordi Hays?

  And they stopped selling it. And now I don't, I like, I lost my.

• 1:37:01Bryan Johnson?

  So we should.

• 1:37:01Jordi Hays?

  They don't want you icing your boys out there.

• 1:37:03John Coogan?

  I don't think they want that. Yeah.

• 1:37:04Bryan Johnson?

  And then a lot of men will say like, I'm not trying to have, you know, babies. So it doesn't matter, but it has negative feedback.

• 1:37:09Jordi Hays?

  Hormone, hormone health.

• 1:37:10Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly.

• 1:37:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:11John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:37:12Bryan Johnson?

  So yeah, they're so, yes, sleep, that exercise is great, but then you dive into the details. This is what I'm saying. Like you, you start down this path and you inevitably will spend 50% of your time chasing down everything.

• 1:37:24John Coogan?

  Some sort of weird root cause on whatever it is.

• 1:37:26Bryan Johnson?

  It's never easy. So you have infinite chase. And that's what I'm saying is that's the problem I'm trying to solve is nobody has 50% of their time to do this.

• 1:37:33Jordi Hays?

  How, uh, how, how are you thinking about wearables? Because there's a world in the future where you have a camera that's effectively a sensor that's able to experience life in your, in your view. And that as like a health co-pilot would be pretty wild because it'd be like, hey, hey, you, you've already eaten like, you know, well beyond, you assume that like cameras get better at like calorie tracking. It's like, hey, you're well over like, uh, your daily caloric needs. Like you're now going into a surplus, maybe ease off and maybe that's enough.

• 1:38:00John Coogan?

  Meta Ray-Ban displays like need a killer app. That sounds like something you should build. What, what do you think?

• 1:38:05Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. I mean, the, if you think about it, GLP-1s are kind of that. I mean, a little bit, right? It's like, it's like modulating your hunger, like your satiety. And it's like, so.

• 1:38:14Jordi Hays?

  How do you, how do you think, uh, we'll view GLP-1s and the, the explosion of their use in 50 years?

• 1:38:21Bryan Johnson?

  It's probably the most successful anti-aging drug ever built.

• 1:38:25John Coogan?

  It's incredible.

• 1:38:26Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. It's like you, the benefits keep on accumulating. Yes, there's drawbacks. They're getting better all the time, but.

• 1:38:30John Coogan?

  Do you feel the same way about statins?

• 1:38:33Bryan Johnson?

  Uh, those are, they're complicated. I mean, statins do have benefits, but they're complicated.

• 1:38:36John Coogan?

  Um, do you feel like there's any value to reading into the, uh, the, the conspiracy, uh, like weird vibes around the fact that like Ozempic came from a demon, like this Hila monster?

• 1:38:51Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's a Hila monster.

• 1:38:52John Coogan?

  Is it the Hila monster?

• 1:38:53Jordi Hays?

  They were experimenting.

• 1:38:54John Coogan?

  Or Komodo dragon venom or something like that? Like, it just feels like wrong, right? If you're just like, you know, just humanity 101, you'd be like, yeah, don't drink.

• 1:39:02Jordi Hays?

  Don't become the reptile.

• 1:39:04John Coogan?

  Don't drink the reptile venom.

• 1:39:05Bryan Johnson?

  I mean.

• 1:39:06Jordi Hays?

  You're, you're, he, Brian might be trying to become the reptile.

• 1:39:09John Coogan?

  I mean, are you into it?

• 1:39:09Bryan Johnson?

  The Sonoran toad gave us five MEO DMT.

• 1:39:12John Coogan?

  And I would say that that's bad too.

• 1:39:15John Coogan?

  That's throwing off all sorts of red flags for me.

• 1:39:17Bryan Johnson?

  It just got FDA approval.

• 1:39:18John Coogan?

  It did.

• 1:39:18Bryan Johnson?

  It did.

• 1:39:19John Coogan?

  For what?

• 1:39:19Bryan Johnson?

  Break the status for treat, uh, depression, uh, resistant depression.

• 1:39:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Treatment resistant depression.

• 1:39:25Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:26John Coogan?

  Yeah, got it.

• 1:39:27Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:27John Coogan?

  Uh, so yeah, I mean, I guess if you're sad, you need the toad to cheer you up, I suppose.

• 1:39:33Bryan Johnson?

  Thank you, reptile.

• 1:39:35John Coogan?

  I'm, I'm, I'm happy if it's helping people. I'm happy. Uh, it is, it is just funny when we were, we, we, we were looking at the story of Ozempic like a year ago.

• 1:39:42Jordi Hays?

  What's your, what's your view on, uh, I think everybody's hoping, maybe, maybe GLP-1s are this and, and people haven't sort of fully realized it yet, but everybody is kind of, I feel like for a while, just hoping that like, oh, by the time that I'm, I'm eight, I'm really aging, like I'm really feeling it. Uh, there will just be a pill that I can take and, you know, uh, I'll just be able to halt or maybe even reverse. Are you like, how open to, to you, how open are you to the idea that like, there could be something that is like an order of magnitude more effective than GLP-1s in terms of anti-aging? Like, are you, you know, where, where do you put the probability there?

• 1:40:21Bryan Johnson?

  I mean, that study that came out from China in June, they showed that they took this form of a fox 03 protein. They use CRISPR, they put it in a mesenchymal stem cell and delivered it via intravenous treatment. It had a biological equivalent for human. So this was in monkeys. It had a three to five year age reversal in over fifty percent of the tissues, which is unseen. And for a human equivalent, that'd be like nine to fifteen years roughly. So these demonstrations are being done. I think we'll probably, I was gonna actually figure this out. You know, the hype cycle where you

• 1:40:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, Gertner hype cycle.

• 1:40:55Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly.

• 1:40:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, trough of disillusionment, plateau of productivity.

• 1:40:58Bryan Johnson?

  I was gonna model this out this week.

• 1:41:00John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:41:00Bryan Johnson?

  Try to figure out like, because I think we're probably gonna hit peak in something like

• 1:41:04John Coogan?

  GOP ones or something.

• 1:41:05Bryan Johnson?

  Twenty thirty two, you're like ish, like

• 1:41:08John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:41:08Jordi Hays?

  Okay, we got some time. We're still going on.

• 1:41:10Bryan Johnson?

  A few things will help. People will be like, it's here. And then

• 1:41:13John Coogan?

  Oh, and people will think that they're gonna live forever. And then there will be a crash and be like, oh, actually, there's still more problems to solve.

• 1:41:18Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly. Then twenty thirty five, twenty thirty seven, people are like, oh, man, like, it's not solving this or that, or we have these complications. And like, maybe early twenty forties, people are like, actually,

• 1:41:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:26Bryan Johnson?

  we got this, like, something like that.

• 1:41:28John Coogan?

  I saw some posts a long time ago.

• 1:41:30Jordi Hays?

  You get crazy inbound from mad scientists all over the world. They're like, hey, I made this thing. I was talking with chat GPT for fifty hours over the last week, and I figured out, like, let me, let me come inject you.

• 1:41:42Bryan Johnson?

  When I was building kernel with this brain interface,

• 1:41:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:45Bryan Johnson?

  I would get all these emails that people are like, I've been implanted by the government.

• 1:41:48John Coogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:41:49Bryan Johnson?

  So that would come in. But now, yes, like, I do. I get, I don't know, maybe like seven to ten a day.

• 1:41:54John Coogan?

  Whoa, that's a lot.

• 1:41:55Jordi Hays?

  For people offering you experimental

• 1:41:57Bryan Johnson?

  You know, like, I've, I've discovered the quantum realm and how the, how

• 1:42:01John Coogan?

  Sick.

• 1:42:01Bryan Johnson?

  Yes, I mean, it's wild. People are excited about this topic.

• 1:42:05John Coogan?

  Maybe some toads involved in that one. That's funny. Yeah, I remember seeing this post a while back. I don't know if you remember it better than I do, but it was basically looking at like, the, the distribution of lifespans is not, there's not just a single power law where everyone falls off at like ninety. Like, you would expect, if it was just a normal power law, that we would get a couple hundred and fifty and like one, two hundred year old person. But in fact, there are like, this double exponential effect.

• 1:42:33Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:34John Coogan?

  And so maybe that's kind of what happens where you, maybe we solve one of them, but then we still are at this like, you know, exponential fall off in, in longevity. But even unlocking like one person at two hundred would be amazing.

• 1:42:46Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. Yeah, there was this interesting paper that came out of Levin. Okay. So he said, um, his theory after running this model was that basically after

• 1:42:55Bryan Johnson?

  We reproduce, our cells lose purpose. Like, our cells don't have a unifying objective.

• 1:43:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:01Bryan Johnson?

  So they just like aging, just like we just don't know what to do.

• 1:43:03John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:43:03Bryan Johnson?

  So if his model is correct, like biology needs don't die. Like, they actually need an objective at a macro scale, like at our level of cognition, but also at a cellular level. But I think, like, these are the kinds of experiments people are being, are doing of like, what, what is the underlying incentive structure of biology? Why do we age? Why do we not age in certain parts of our life?

• 1:43:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:24Bryan Johnson?

  Why do we have protective mechanisms? You know, why do some species regenerate? So I think it's this really exciting frontier where our ideas now of aging are beginning to crack open a little bit and expanding our horizons. Like, how do we think about time?

• 1:43:37John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, we talked about this last time you were on about Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, uh, not particularly famous for their biohacking, but incredibly resilient, uh, well, like a life well-lived. Uh, so many stories about them, like, you know, standing up, drinking Coca-Cola and wine long into the night. And I, I want to believe that there's some level of just, if you have a purpose, if you have drive, your body just pulls it together a little bit more.

• 1:44:04Bryan Johnson?

  I, I know people want this to be like the answer.

• 1:44:07John Coogan?

  Yes, but you're saying just luck.

• 1:44:08Bryan Johnson?

  I think it's such, I think it's really such a bad idea because people in their mind, they make that shortcut and they're like, you know what?

• 1:44:14Jordi Hays?

  I've just gotta work harder. I gotta work harder.

• 1:44:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:17Jordi Hays?

  Uh, did we, did we cure, uh, balding? There was that study, was it last week?

• 1:44:22Bryan Johnson?

  They're all such, they're weak effects.

• 1:44:24John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:44:25Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, so you, we really have not made, I guess it's

• 1:44:28Jordi Hays?

  So a long turkey.

• 1:44:29Bryan Johnson?

  It's a little bit embarrassing as a human race that we haven't been able to make really good strides on hair loss.

• 1:44:34John Coogan?

  That one seems very simple. I don't know. It just seems like very mechanical, you know? It, it doesn't seem as complicated as like, you know, your brain degenerating. We don't even know how the brain works. It's like, it's hair. It just grows. Like, it should be

• 1:44:45Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, we're working on it. We just put out our best attempt. We're gonna see if it works.

• 1:44:49John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:44:49Bryan Johnson?

  Uh, we're gonna try to be every, everything that's out there on market.

• 1:44:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:44:53Bryan Johnson?

  We'll see.

• 1:44:53John Coogan?

  How important is, uh, these like cosmetic?

• 1:44:58John Coogan?

  Intervention to the blueprint plan.

• 1:45:01Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:02John Coogan?

  Because you could imagine a world where people will say, yeah, make me live forever, but I don't care about wrinkles and hair because unless it's going to help me actually live longer.

• 1:45:12Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:12John Coogan?

  Why bother?

• 1:45:13Bryan Johnson?

  I mean, the thing is, don't die is really be hot. Like, what?

• 1:45:18Jordi Hays?

  Every, every, every supplement company, every, every company in health, you're ultimately selling at the end of the day.

• 1:45:24John Coogan?

  Yeah, I think this is brilliant from a business perspective.

• 1:45:26Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:26John Coogan?

  But does it make sense in terms of the science? Like, does it take something out of the science?

• 1:45:31Bryan Johnson?

  Being hot is good science. You know, like, if you look youthful and vibrant, your skin is nice and like you're, you have a lot of energy. So I think be hot is legit.

• 1:45:39John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:45:39Bryan Johnson?

  The path for this.

• 1:45:40John Coogan?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 1:45:41Jordi Hays?

  Be hot, don't die.

• 1:45:42Bryan Johnson?

  Have a success.

• 1:45:42Jordi Hays?

  How do you think about longevity in the business? You know, if you look at the D to C bubble, there was a lot of companies that raised similar amount of money and, and, you know, are, are no longer with us. I imagine you care about, a lot about just making sure that don't die and blueprint survive decades. And I'm sure that's informing the way that you're building.

• 1:46:05Bryan Johnson?

  I mean, this is like you, you know, the internet comes about, Google sets up shop.

• 1:46:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:09Bryan Johnson?

  And rides that tailwind. Amazon sets up shop on, on commerce, right? Basically, somebody's going to set up shop in longevity and ride a multi-trillion dollar ride.

• 1:46:17John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:46:18Bryan Johnson?

  So that's what we're trying to do.

• 1:46:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:19Bryan Johnson?

  Is we're trying to just be home base, win the early innings of longevity and then ride for the multi-trillion dollar market.

• 1:46:25Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Do you think there's a lot of, like, I imagine M and A will be pretty important to your strategy.

• 1:46:30John Coogan?

  Really?

• 1:46:31Jordi Hays?

  With a lot of companies. I mean, I just feel there's a lot of companies that are important, that are like single product or for specific use cases that don't really necessarily need or shouldn't be. Because like, if you're a blueprint customer, maybe you need it once every three years. But that means it could be harder to actually build a business around, but it would slot in.

• 1:46:50Bryan Johnson?

  You nailed it. So basically, if you look at the landscape in health right now, nothing is proprietary. You basically you've got wearables from all these different providers. You have food providers. You have biomarkers, like nothing's proprietary. And so the winner's going to have to out compete everybody and bringing a an experience to the customer that is sensible and practical and make, you know. So I think that's that's where the competition is going to be because this is like the days when I was building a Braintree Venmo. It was commoditized, like you're all in the Visa, Mastercard, IMAX, Discover, Stack, and you have to build something unique and then Braintree and Stripe just collapsed the market.

• 1:47:25John Coogan?

  Yeah. How do you think about, now I want to hear the story of the Venmo acquisition. How did that happen?

• 1:47:33Bryan Johnson?

  They so they built up a fend so people in payments, it was very clear PayPal was the only company making money.

• 1:47:40John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:47:41Bryan Johnson?

  Because they had both sides of the market.

• 1:47:42John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:47:43Bryan Johnson?

  They got lucky because they got into eBay, they built the consumer side, but then they had a merchant side too. Because otherwise, if you just offer it to merchants, your margins are pretty low.

• 1:47:50John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 1:47:51Bryan Johnson?

  You're making whatever 20, 50 basis points or like that. And so everybody was going after PayPal, trying to build a two sided marketplace. And that took a lot of capital. It's very hard to build from scratch. And so I said, okay, I'm going to build the merchant side of the business first, and then I'm going to acquire the consumer side. Said this when I started the company. So we got customers like Airbnb, Uber, GitHub. We got all the Gen Z people and then Venmo had done a fantastic job building out consumer side. And then we could then marry those two demographics and it's like, perfect. And so, yeah, so they had built a great business, but they hadn't solved making money.

• 1:48:26John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:48:26Bryan Johnson?

  When they plugged into our world, we bought them for 26.2 million.

• 1:48:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:30Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:31John Coogan?

  How much of that was like not making money because of fraud? I hear that a lot of fintech companies, like they actually have something where the unit economics should work, but it's always crazy in the early days. You hear the story about PayPal where PayPal was losing tons of money, but it was only because of fraud. The actual business, when it wasn't fraudulent, made sense. But then, once you get to scale, you can do the anti fraud properly. Is that something that you were problem solving around?

• 1:48:55Bryan Johnson?

  It's very hard, again, because you're doing peer to peer and typically you have like illicit purposes, totally, primarily as your driver. And so it's a very hard problem. So as a standalone, it's hard for them to make sense because you, if you have, if you stack on a fee when you're paying your buddy, it's hard, there's friction in the adoption.

• 1:49:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:11Bryan Johnson?

  So you have to kind of speed run adoption and then make money later.

• 1:49:14John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:49:14Bryan Johnson?

  But there was no good make money later problem.

• 1:49:16John Coogan?

  It becomes a big cash sink.

• 1:49:18Jordi Hays?

  Do you, I was running, I think it was a shower thought. I was like, okay, there's so much capital sloshing around the private markets. It's been interesting that we haven't seen more people like try to take on Stripe. I don't know if it's, I don't know. I'd be curious from your point of view, at what point will people even try to climb that mountain?

• 1:49:41Bryan Johnson?

  It's very unlikely. They've done such a great job executing. I sold Braintree in 2013. So they've been building 12 years since. They've done such a good job making that airtight. They're just great. That's like, this is the thing is like.

• 1:49:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you can't come in and make it 10x better.

• 1:49:56Bryan Johnson?

  Like Amazon locked commerce. So you of course can build your commerce business on Shopify, but at a scale, I mean, Amazon has just kind of owned that entire thing. It's very hard to replicate that. So that's, that's our goal too, is we're basically trying to do that for longevity is once you collapse the entire space, it's just, it's very hard to get in.

• 1:50:13John Coogan?

  Okay, we got a lightning round. Favorite book?

• 1:50:18John Coogan?

  Or just a book recommendation, something you read recently that you like?

• 1:50:23Bryan Johnson?

  I just finished The History of the Western Mind, going through all of Western thought.

• 1:50:28John Coogan?

  Oh, cool. Favorite music? What's in your?

• 1:50:32Bryan Johnson?

  You know, I have such a soft spot for Eminem. When I was, when I was depressed, he was the only artist that I could fill.

• 1:50:40John Coogan?

  Okay, love it. When will humanity develop AGI?

• 1:50:52Jordi Hays?

  We asked such a hard, you don't want to sound like a D cell. You don't want to be.

• 1:50:57Jordi Hays?

  Just call it right now. Well, I want to be able to clip this, the day of and be like.

• 1:51:02Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly.

• 1:51:02John Coogan?

  I want to say, I want to say that, I want to say that will be nice to you and we won't clip this, but I know our clipping infrastructure and we absolutely will clip this.

• 1:51:10Bryan Johnson?

  It's such a sucker question, right?

• 1:51:13John Coogan?

  Well, maybe let's flip it around. OpenAI and Microsoft did this deal where, where the definition of AGI will be convened by a group of experts. What is your definition of AGI?

• 1:51:27Bryan Johnson?

  I approach this question as a more through psychology of when will humans feel useless?

• 1:51:39John Coogan?

  Feel useless?

• 1:51:40Bryan Johnson?

  Yes, like our entire identity is based upon like we do things, we contribute, we build.

• 1:51:44John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:51:44Bryan Johnson?

  And now AI is a tool, like we feel more productive with it.

• 1:51:47John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:51:48Bryan Johnson?

  At what point will do everything so well, you feel this deep hole in your stomach of like, what do I do?

• 1:51:55John Coogan?

  So what if, yeah, the weird thing is like, computers are incredible at chess, yet people play chess for fun and at the professional level because humans, I guess they're anti-clanker and they like watching humans play chess. And if we can solve that for everyone, so that everyone has some sort of, even like in this AGI world where there's no more real jobs, there's no more actual, okay, you need to produce something for food or, you know, livability, everything is just for fun or for games and for status. And it's all about, wasn't Andre Karpathy saying you go to the gym and you'll learn in the future?

• 1:52:32Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:32John Coogan?

  And it's, and I wonder, like, if your definition is, once that breaks down, that is, feels really far in the future. But I like that, I like that.

• 1:52:40Bryan Johnson?

  People look forward to retirement. Retirement is a goal, it's an ideal. It's like, we're gonna get an RV, we're gonna cruise the country. Then they retire, they're like, this sucks. Like, there's not the tension.

• 1:52:49Jordi Hays?

  Never retire.

• 1:52:50Bryan Johnson?

  So if we imagine, we're gonna like, learn and we're gonna like, do yoga all day and paint and, but like, if there's not the tension of the stress and the, of real life, like, do we really want to be on vacation all the time? Do we want to be at leisure? Like, so that's my, like, what I think about is, when that happens, that's a pretty unnerving situation, because humans don't do well with that uncertainty.

• 1:53:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:11Bryan Johnson?

  And then our systems have to respond. So like, that's what I really think about all day, every day.

• 1:53:15Jordi Hays?

  Everyone in the end is just gonna be competing on biomarkers. It's gonna be the it's gonna be the final status game.

• 1:53:21Bryan Johnson?

  This is the final game.

• 1:53:22John Coogan?

  It might be. That aligns with Karpathy's take. Last lightning round question, and then I want you to ring the gong. Favorite vacation spot. Where would you go?

• 1:53:31Bryan Johnson?

  Oh, Redwood Forest.

• 1:53:33John Coogan?

  Redwood Forest.

• 1:53:34Bryan Johnson?

  I love Redwood.

• 1:53:35John Coogan?

  Stay in California?

• 1:53:36Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, I would love. I love Redwoods.

• 1:53:37John Coogan?

  Let's go.

• 1:53:38Bryan Johnson?

  Right, like they're.

• 1:53:39Jordi Hays?

  This is John. This is John.

• 1:53:40John Coogan?

  I love California.

• 1:53:40Jordi Hays?

  You don't need to go to Europe.

• 1:53:41John Coogan?

  I love America. I don't.

• 1:53:42Jordi Hays?

  You don't need to get all the radiation on the plane.

• 1:53:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:44Jordi Hays?

  Just stay here.

• 1:53:45Bryan Johnson?

  They're like such beautiful, majestic creatures.

• 1:53:49John Coogan?

  And they live a long time.

• 1:53:50Bryan Johnson?

  They live a long time.

• 1:53:51John Coogan?

  It's very on brand for you. I love it. Congratulations on the round $60 million. Fantastic progress. I'd love for you to ring that gong and I'd love for you to ring it at a, at a decibel level that you feel is appropriate for.

• 1:54:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we don't want to damage your ears.

• 1:54:05Bryan Johnson?

  Let me, yeah, let me pull.

• 1:54:06John Coogan?

  Can you teach us?

• 1:54:07Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, let me pull up my decibel meter. Do we have my phone?

• 1:54:09John Coogan?

  Uh.

• 1:54:09Bryan Johnson?

  Let's make sure we get this.

• 1:54:10John Coogan?

  Yes, let's bring over.

• 1:54:11Bryan Johnson?

  We don't want to be over 80 decibels.

• 1:54:13John Coogan?

  Okay, yes, because we, uh, we do have IEMs, so it is a little bit of hearing protection, but I would love to know. Uh, you can, you feel free to take as many swings as you, as you need. But I'd love to know.

• 1:54:24Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:24John Coogan?

  Uh, what, what an 80 decibel.

• 1:54:27Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:27John Coogan?

  Uh, ring it sounds like.

• 1:54:28Bryan Johnson?

  So, yeah, I recently, I measured my ears. My left ear is 64. So I have moderate, mild to moderate hearing loss.

• 1:54:34John Coogan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:54:35Bryan Johnson?

  Which substantially increases your risk of dementia.

• 1:54:37John Coogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:54:38Bryan Johnson?

  So, yeah, so.

• 1:54:38John Coogan?

  Well, because you're going crazy because you don't, you don't perceive reality properly.

• 1:54:41Bryan Johnson?

  Your brain's missing all these signals.

• 1:54:42John Coogan?

  Wow, that's crazy. Makes so much sense.

• 1:54:45Bryan Johnson?

  Built for, for hearing loss, like concerts.

• 1:54:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:47Bryan Johnson?

  Social gatherings, restaurants. So, yeah, I would suggest everyone get a hearing test.

• 1:54:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:52Bryan Johnson?

  I just got hearing aids.

• 1:54:53John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:54:53Bryan Johnson?

  So, all right.

• 1:54:54John Coogan?

  Okay, cool.

• 1:54:55Bryan Johnson?

  Here we go.

• 1:54:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Hit, hit that gong at, at, at a, at a longevity approved level. Let's hear it. Okay, what are we at?

• 1:55:06John Coogan?

  How are we doing? 90?

• 1:55:08Jordi Hays?

  90?

• 1:55:09John Coogan?

  Okay, so about that level, if we go any higher, we're gonna need.

• 1:55:13Shaun Maguire?

  Just a, just a tad.

• 1:55:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Just a tad.

• 1:55:18Jordi Hays?

  There we go. We got this sweet spot.

• 1:55:20John Coogan?

  Brian Johnson approved.

• 1:55:22Jordi Hays?

  Gong hit.

• 1:55:23John Coogan?

  You heard it here. I bet, I bet everyone in the chat is like, oh, finally.

• 1:55:26Bryan Johnson?

  That's, that's what I got.

• 1:55:27John Coogan?

  We, we smacked that thing so loud. Unfortunately, you know, we.

• 1:55:30Jordi Hays?

  Dude, do you have tinnitus?

• 1:55:32Bryan Johnson?

  No, I don't.

• 1:55:32John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:55:33Bryan Johnson?

  Fortunately, but I.

• 1:55:34Jordi Hays?

  I do.

• 1:55:35Bryan Johnson?

  Oh, you do.

• 1:55:35Jordi Hays?

  I've had it since I was, uh, my, my Coachella era.

• 1:55:40Bryan Johnson?

  This is the thing.

• 1:55:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, now I, I don't, I don't go to concerts at all. I don't pay to stand in crowds and lines. Um, but, uh, but I do, I, I, I specifically recall, uh, or I believe I know the exact weekend that, that, uh, that, that, uh, it started.

• 1:55:57Bryan Johnson?

  Man, is it a pretty significant thing in your life?

• 1:56:00Jordi Hays?

  Uh, no, I, I zone it out, but, but if I take a, if I, I like, I've adapted to not hearing it. But if I, every, probably a few times a week, I'll, I'll be in a really quiet space and realize that I have constant ringing.

• 1:56:17Bryan Johnson?

  Have you looked into hearing aids?

• 1:56:19Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 1:56:20Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:20Jordi Hays?

  Maybe I should.

• 1:56:21Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. So I just got the Audicon Intense.

• 1:56:23John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:56:24Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:24Jordi Hays?

  Okay. And that, that, that increases your, you're not wearing them right now.

• 1:56:28Bryan Johnson?

  Not right now, yeah.

• 1:56:28Jordi Hays?

  But you've, you've been testing them out?

• 1:56:30Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, exactly. I actually, I, I'm so sad. I, I was running out the door and I forgot them.

• 1:56:34Jordi Hays?

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 1:56:34Bryan Johnson?

  I just finished my morning routine. So I'm still sad, but yeah, but they actually, they, I've only had them for a week. They have substantially improved my life.

• 1:56:41Jordi Hays?

  Wow.

• 1:56:41Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:42Jordi Hays?

  Wow, cool.

• 1:56:42John Coogan?

  Well, this conversation has substantially improved my life.

• 1:56:45Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, you guys, this is fun. This is great. Yeah.

• 1:56:46John Coogan?

  On the show. This is fantastic.

• 1:56:48Bryan Johnson?

  I appreciate it.

• 1:56:48John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 1:56:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:50John Coogan?

  And we will talk to you.

• 1:56:51Jordi Hays?

  Come back again soon.

• 1:56:51John Coogan?

  Soon. We have our next guest in the restream waiting room, but first let me tell you about Profound. Get your brand mentioned in ChatGPT. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands. And we have Nathan Mintz from CX2 in the TVP and Ultradome. Nathan, how are you doing?

• 1:57:08Jordi Hays?

  Boom.

• 1:57:09Speaker 06

  Wonderful, wonderful. It's, uh, sunny and about 75 degrees outside here in East El Segundo.

• 1:57:15John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 1:57:16Speaker 06

  Great.

• 1:57:16John Coogan?

  Haven't, uh, yeah, it's been too long since we caught up.

• 1:57:20Jordi Hays?

  There's nothing like pulling open the weather app in California and it's just

• 1:57:24John Coogan?

  It's the best.

• 1:57:24Jordi Hays?

  10 days straight of sunny and 75, and we're lucky to have that pretty much year round.

• 1:57:30John Coogan?

  I like all the.

• 1:57:30Speaker 06

  Almost makes the taxes taller.

• 1:57:32John Coogan?

  I like all the, all the traditional press pronounced behind you. Uh, we need to send you some physical, uh, memorabilia.

• 1:57:40Jordi Hays?

  Screenshots from your appearances.

• 1:57:41John Coogan?

  From your TVP appearances, since this is your second one. Um, but give us the, give us the update. What, what's new in your world?

• 1:57:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, so you know CX2, we've been turning and burning. We've pretty much been racking up the frequent flyer miles, going to multiple exercises this year. I think we're about to go to number eight next week. And one of the things we realized as we go around and we talk to leaders and we talk to the warfighters and stuff is that there's kind of a nebulous understanding of the nature of the problem that we're facing. So we decided to get together with some of those knowledgeable warfighters we know, along with our experts here, and really write it down in booklet form as the spectrum imperative. And if you go to our website cx2.com, there's a big banner where you can try and type in spectrumimperative.com.

• 1:58:30Speaker 06

  I'm not the best speller, so I would just go to our website and then go from there. But really, what we're trying to do is come up with what is the core thesis of electromagnetic warfare in the 21st century? Because the electromagnetic spectrum is this cross domain across the entire, all the other domains of warfare, land, sea, space, air, and cyber, that connects all of them. And particularly as everything moves to more autonomous systems, we are seeing more increasing reliance upon the spectrum, and it becomes a more contested domain of warfare, which, because we had the luxury of working for 20 years during

• 1:59:13Speaker 06

  the, you know, global war on terror, Iraq, etc., where we had permissive access to this spectrum and air superiority, we never had to worry about it before. And now it's something that, as we're seeing every day in Ukraine, when it's heavily contested, our ability to have air superiority, air dominance, or really to maneuver on other, in other domains, is severely impeded by it.

• 1:59:38John Coogan?

  Can you help me synthesize Palmer Lucky's latest soundbite around America as the world's arms dealer, as opposed to the America the world police? This idea that American defense technology companies will be building products that America basically sells or deploys to other countries? Like, what does that look like in Ukraine, for you, in Taiwan, in the Middle East? How is that different than America the world police, where you're designing a system that's ultimately used by American boots on the ground?

• 2:00:16Speaker 06

  So in traditional defense, I spent 14 years in traditional defense.

• 2:00:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:20Speaker 06

  I think I pulled my passport out of my drawer three times and one of them was for, one time was for my honeymoon, right? Versus in the last five years that I've been involved with new defense, I think I've been abroad six or seven times, right? So that kind of gives you an idea. Actually, the last year, I think I've been abroad four or five times. So where we're going, you know, now it's much more common for us to go visit the warfighter up in the battlefield and understand their situation and try and figure out how we can adapt what we're building to go along with them. And I think that's what Palmer's referring to is how do we, you know, work alongside our allies. This is actually one of our, uh, one of our talking points within the, within the spectrum imperative is that we need to be more integrated with our allies from a spectrum standpoint.

• 2:01:05Speaker 06

  We have to be compatible with their radio systems, compatible with their sensor systems, compatible with their command and control systems. And that's a huge part of the spectrum imperative. So, um, I think, I think that's what Palmer's really referring to is how do we get them

• 2:01:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:19Speaker 06

  to, to work with us, to buy what the gaps in their capabilities or build them indigenously. You know, there's a lot of talk about factories at the edge.

• 2:01:27John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:01:27Speaker 06

  Or, you know, forward leaning supply chains to deal with contested logistics.

• 2:01:31John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:01:31Speaker 06

  That's kind of the, I think, the direction where Palmer's going.

• 2:01:34John Coogan?

  I, I, what is the latest update on what's going on in Ukraine? It feels like it's fast becoming a forever war, unfortunately. At the same time, I've been hearing, um, new updates on drones with fiber optic cables to avoid, you know, uh, the, the problems of, uh, electronic and magnetic warfare, right? Uh, like what's, what, like what's the state of the, the, the conflict? And then, uh, what's actually on the cutting edge of what the various militaries are using?

• 2:02:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, so Ukraine, what's basically happened is the front lines have been relatively frozen. And it's because, if you think about it, you need to have uncontested data link, you know, data links at the spectrum layer, you need uncontested navigation, etc. Or else you're kind of swimming upstream. So effectively, they've created this, you know, no man's land of electronic concertina wire and minefields that really impedes any forward motion.

• 2:02:38John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:02:38Speaker 06

  And 98% of the action is occurring with autonomous systems, whether that's drones or unmanned ground vehicles, or unmanned surface vessels.

• 2:02:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:47Speaker 06

  The Ukrainians have actually been probably the most successful with the USVs in the Black Sea. They've pretty much pushed the Russians completely out of Sebastopol.

• 2:02:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:56Speaker 06

  Completely out of Crimea. And now they have to go all the way to their ports on the eastern side of the Black Sea to actually like, you know, keep their ships safe, right? So that's a case study where autonomous systems, or actually automated systems in this case, because it's still human driven.

• 2:03:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:14Speaker 06

  Have been able to really make a difference in that conflict. Meanwhile, the whole concept of a forward line of advance or forward edge of the battle area is now completely obsolete in the sense that you can have drones pop up from many kilometers behind the lines and hit strategic targets, which is specifically what we saw with Operation Spiderweb.

• 2:03:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:34Speaker 06

  Now, you mentioned tethered drones. Those were very popular in the Kursk offensive. Actually, the Russians were the first to introduce them, and the Ukrainians then followed suit. And the whole idea was that, well, if there's nothing to jam, then you can fight through all the jamming. The trouble is, is that the tethered drones in some cases within the Kursk offensive actually turned into about 30% of the drones being used at any given time at its peak. But it has, it's a brittle solution. If you go around a tree, you can snag it.

• 2:04:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:06Speaker 06

  If, you know, the lines can be cut quite easily. You know, there's all sorts of limitations. And then not to mention, over water, it's like running a fishing line. If it touches the water at all, it's going to weigh down the drone and take it down with it. So.

• 2:04:20John Coogan?

  I hadn't thought about that.

• 2:04:22Speaker 06

  Yeah, so tethered drones like have their time and place. It's a little unclear how applicable they will be in like the Pacific, for example. But you know, for things like persistent surveillance where you're putting a drone up in the air and you know, you can actually run power up to it for surveillance, it may make a lot of sense, right?

• 2:04:43John Coogan?

  I hadn't even thought about that. That's super interesting.

• 2:04:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:04:46John Coogan?

  You just need to get a camera up in the sky.

• 2:04:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, there is no silver bullet. There is no...

• 2:04:51John Coogan?

  What was the phrase you used? You said Maslow's hammer?

• 2:04:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, Maslow's hammer, that if I have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

• 2:04:58John Coogan?

  Oh, sure.

• 2:04:59Speaker 06

  And so that's what tends to happen with any sort of new countermeasures that's first involved. And then the enemy saturates and counters it. In fact, probably the biggest paradigm shift we've seen in the Ukraine war that will be very applicable in the Pacific is this idea that all of our systems are highly adaptable, that both us and the enemy are operating on a much faster fly fix, fly loop, and countermeasure loop than what we're used to seeing. We're used to seeing years for new systems to be introduced. We'll be looking at more like weeks or possibly even days in some cases. And augmented by commercial software practices like CICD and other things.

• 2:05:36John Coogan?

  Well, sorry, we have to move on so quickly, but thank you for the update and congratulations on all the progress. Definitely encourage everyone to go check out the Spectrum Imperative campaign from CX2, and we will talk to you soon.

• 2:05:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, great to catch up, Nathan.

• 2:05:53Speaker 06

  You too.

• 2:05:53John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon. Bye. Before we bring in our next guest, let me tell you about Linear. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products. Meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product roadmaps. Our next guest is James Proud from Substrate. Welcome to the show, James. How are you doing?

• 2:06:12Speaker 07

  Suit it up. Love it. Thank you for having me, guys. It's an honor.

• 2:06:16John Coogan?

  You look fantastic. Please introduce yourself, give us a little bit of the backstory, and then tell us the general overview of the company, what you're building, and where it's positioned in the in the supply chain of the semiconductor industry.

• 2:06:32Speaker 07

  Sure. I think quite simply, what we're doing is a bet that America can do hard things again.

• 2:06:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:39Speaker 07

  And that if it's important enough, then we can go and do it.

• 2:06:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:43Speaker 07

  It's not a question of whether we can or not. And I think when it comes to advanced chips, I think we all know and we all believe this is certainly important enough. And so our bet is that the United States invented this technology, we can invent the next generation again. And starting with the core process of lithography is how you can actually go and make what we think a next generation foundry.

• 2:07:06John Coogan?

  Yep. Okay, so I think many viewers will be familiar with the general semiconductor stack. You have the design shops like Nvidia, you have your TSMC, the fab, you have ASML, the lithography machinery maker, you might have Trump or ZEIS or some other supplier deeper in the chain. How do you see yourself fitting in? Are you vertically integrated? Do you want to come in at the ASML level, at the TSMC level? We've talked to other Thiel fellows, like the folks at Etched, where they're not setting up a fab, but they are designing a new chip and they're going to work at TSMC to run that process. How do you see yourself fitting into the stack?

• 2:07:49Speaker 07

  Yeah, we're slightly insane and we think that the United States can build and sustain a new pure-play foundry business.

• 2:07:57John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:07:58Speaker 07

  And to do that, we need to be a little bit more vertically integrated than usual.

• 2:08:02John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:08:03Speaker 07

  Usually you have the tooling makers, you have the fabs that buy the tools.

• 2:08:05John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:08:06Speaker 07

  We see ours is more a sort of return to the beginning of the industry where everyone sort of did a little bit of everything. And so for us, we're going to start making our own tools specifically around the lithography piece.

• 2:08:19John Coogan?

  Yep. Amazing.

• 2:08:21Jordi Hays?

  You've been on a press blitz this week, all over the map. What was the last year like leading up until this point? What have you been focused on? And then what does the next year look like specifically in terms of making progress against all these goals?

• 2:08:39Speaker 07

  Honestly incredibly incredibly hard. There's a video that I'm sure you guys have seen of when Elon was being interviewed about the Model 3 ramp and he sort of looks at the floor and talks about how his head and heart physically hurt from how hard he had to work. And I know exactly what that feels like and I'm sure a lot of our team do as well. But as I said, it goes back to like, is this important enough to actually make happen? And we believe that this certainly is and we're very proud of the results that we have and wanted to show the world and sort of tell people what we believe and what we're doing.

• 2:09:19Jordi Hays?

  And then what is, more tactically, like, this is the kind of company that its the true potential will only be able to achieve, be achieved across decades, right? This is not the kind of company you start and expect to, you know, it's a massive journey. But like, how do you break it up with the team? Like, what are you looking to accomplish more specifically in the next like one to two years?

• 2:09:49Speaker 07

  Well, moving quickly, I think, is sort of one of the key important parts of this. I think that this 10 years from now is far less important for the United States 2, 3, 4 from now. And so our goal is in 2028 to actually have a facility constructed and be running wafers. And so one of the reasons why we're coming out publicly is it's going to be very hard to start building big particle accelerators, big clean rooms in secret. And so the goal is we start doing that very quickly and sprint to 28.

• 2:10:23John Coogan?

  Walk through some of the milestones to date. Do you have to come up with new ways to etch chips essentially because of IP? And or do you need to do a bunch of licensing deals? Is a big piece of the equation for the last year been marshalling capital and then placing orders to buy equipment and build up a facility? There's so many different ways that the business could take shape if the general goal is like, let's build a fab in America. I can imagine a bunch of different ways to solve that, but how did you go about solving it?

• 2:11:01Speaker 07

  Yeah, so up to now, the company is really three years old. And the big thrust so far has been building lithography tools, demonstrating that they work, printing the smallest things that humans are able to go and print. And that's been the focus really up to now. And in terms of like what kind of tool, the IP and the like, our focus has been how do you reduce cost and complexity? And so all of the design choices we've made have been driven by that. And really, like EUV and the tools that exist today, these are modern miracles. These things are incredible, the engineering, incredible. But the choices were made in the, really the 90s and took a while to scale up.

• 2:11:46Speaker 07

  Our approach has been on the lithography side, if you were building a next-generation lithography tool today, would you make the same technical choices? We've believed no, and the answer is no.

• 2:11:58Jordi Hays?

  What's it been like on the recruiting side? Have you been visiting the Netherlands, visiting Taiwan? How are you thinking about building the team going forward?

• 2:12:10Speaker 07

  Yeah, as I sort of said at the start, like this has been primarily, it sounds very simplistic, but a bet on the United States. I bet that we still have the best engineers, the best scientists, the best national labs. Like if you look at the history of semiconductors, this was all invented by the United States. Transistors, CMOS, FinFET, EUV. Like, American companies usually maybe, it's basically been IBM and Intel that invented all of that stuff. And so like the bet is that we have the people, we have the talent. It's just can we actually have a new direction? And so that's been the work that we've done. And so predominantly, we've been recruiting from American companies, US national labs, so all here.

• 2:12:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's why America can do things like the CHIPS Act and can restrict the way ASML equipment moves to China. Because the IP was developed here in America. So even if it's changed hands, we still have some leverage. Fascinating. Take us through the fundraise. How did it come together? Who's involved? What's the story with the latest fundraise? It feels like a big ambitious project that needs some very ambitious capital, but what happened?

• 2:13:29Speaker 07

  So I want to actually quickly go back to your previous point about export restrictions.

• 2:13:34John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:34Speaker 07

  A big belief that we've had is that we shouldn't bet that China won't do this.

• 2:13:41John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 2:13:41Speaker 07

  And a big part of what we're doing is that like there's the United States and this China. And those are really the two countries that can actually attempt something like this.

• 2:13:51John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:13:51Speaker 07

  And because of export restrictions, we know they're trying. And our belief is that if we're not trying to build what a next generation found you looks like today, we might wind up five, 10 years down the line in a really difficult place. And so that's been a big sort of motivation because of the timelines. These things take a while to play out. On the funding, I know there's a 100-plus number that's out. Like that's more actually historical, but clearly we're not going to build a fab with that amount of money. The key thing, though, is that unlike, I think, sort of traditional semiconductor fabs, because we focused on vertically integrating tools, we can reduce that cost and complexity.

• 2:14:34Speaker 07

  So you don't need to spend 10-plus billion dollars to even get something up and running. We think we can actually get that done for a much, much lower cost. And then on the previous money that was announced, I think a huge shout out needs to go to our investors. Because really, when I started this company, I said there's a 1% chance of success. And they still invested. And so for the Founders Fund, the general catalysts of the world and all of the others, these guys deserve a huge amount of credit. Like that's true venture capital. And we think hopefully with these results, we're showing that, yeah, these crazy bets can work.

• 2:15:16John Coogan?

  Is there any world where you partner with strategic investors or someone else in the stack? Is there a natural bedfellow in the ecosystem that doesn't feel like, feels like there might be some synergy here long term?

• 2:15:33Speaker 07

  I mean, 100% like for for the entire American economy. It's now basically built on top of AI, which is built on top of advanced semiconductors.

• 2:15:42John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:15:42Speaker 07

  And so there's like, we see this as a sort of a whole of nation effort. And so the more people we can partner with, we're very open to that.

• 2:15:51John Coogan?

  Very exciting. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 2:15:54Jordi Hays?

  Congratulations.

• 2:15:55John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 2:15:55Jordi Hays?

  Coming out of stealth. Massive weekend. I'm sure you'll be back on very soon.

• 2:15:59John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon.

• 2:16:00Jordi Hays?

  And thank you. The production team thanks you for potentially the most perfect Zoom interview setup ever. So shout out to shout out to your team.

• 2:16:11John Coogan?

  I like the IEMs as well. That's a nice touch. Have a great rest of your day.

• 2:16:15Jordi Hays?

  Great stuff.

• 2:16:16Speaker 07

  Thank you, guys.

• 2:16:17John Coogan?

  Bye. Up next, we got Sean McGuire from Sequoia Capital coming. Oh, what's he wearing? What's he wearing on the hat?

• 2:16:26Jordi Hays?

  There he is.

• 2:16:26John Coogan?

  I got so excited about the hat. I forgot to do the ad read. Numeralhq.com, sales tax on autopilot, spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax and buy. Okay, thank you. Now, now I got Sean. Sorry, sorry. I saw you on the preview screen with the hat. I got excited. I brought you in prematurely before I could do the ad read. Anyway, how are you?

• 2:16:44Jordi Hays?

  Great to see you. Big week.

• 2:16:45John Coogan?

  Big week.

• 2:16:46Jordi Hays?

  Sequoia Capital.

• 2:16:47John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, explain what happened. Some new funds raised, but how do you frame all of the actual progress and the actual announcement? Like, what happened?

• 2:16:58Shaun Maguire?

  What is up, boys? You guys have become celebrities since last time I was here. You got Satya Nadella, you got all these legends, and then jokers like me.

• 2:17:07Jordi Hays?

  Oh, you kicked it off. You kicked it off.

• 2:17:09Shaun Maguire?

  Anyway, it's been amazing to watch. And yeah, I got the hat. I'm repping for you.

• 2:17:14John Coogan?

  Thank you.

• 2:17:14Shaun Maguire?

  And I got to say, this last guy had the best Zoom and audio setup ever. And, you know, again, I'm just on my.

• 2:17:21Jordi Hays?

  Well, no, this is your zone. This is your zone when you, when, you know, anytime there's controversy on the timeline, you just flip open the laptop, hit record, 30 minute video.

• 2:17:30Shaun Maguire?

  Single take with lots of hats.

• 2:17:32John Coogan?

  And this is what people want. They want something that just feels like, okay, I'm actually talking to the person in their office. I get the texture of what their life is actually like. I'm sure this is what tons of founders see when they pitch you. They they open up and this is who's on the other end of the line, right?

• 2:17:47Shaun Maguire?

  Something like that. It works, you know, it works to be somewhat relatable.

• 2:17:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 2:17:52Shaun Maguire?

  Yeah, so look, we're dropping new funds.

• 2:17:54John Coogan?

  Let's go.

• 2:17:55Shaun Maguire?

  We're very lucky. Sequoia's been in business for over 50 years. You know, this is the next vintage of our flagship.

• 2:18:02John Coogan?

  Overnight success.

• 2:18:04Shaun Maguire?

  Overnight success.

• 2:18:07Shaun Maguire?

  You know, Sequoia's backed a couple of small companies in the past. First investor in Nvidia.

• 2:18:12John Coogan?

  Nvidia.

• 2:18:13Shaun Maguire?

  Series A of Apple, Series A of Google.

• 2:18:16John Coogan?

  Let's go.

• 2:18:16Shaun Maguire?

  On and on and on. Next venture fund, vintage dropping. Venture Fund 19.

• 2:18:23John Coogan?

  19.

• 2:18:24Shaun Maguire?

  And also Seed Fund 6.

• 2:18:26John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 2:18:27Shaun Maguire?

  Seed is, you know, something that we used to combine inside our venture funds, but wanted to place a major emphasis on it, really to show the distinction. And I would say, so anyways, fund size 750 million and 200 million for Seed. Something that I think is-

• 2:18:43John Coogan?

  And is there, is there a growth fund as part of this? Is that a separate thing? Is that off-cycle right now?

• 2:18:48Shaun Maguire?

  Yeah, so the growth fund, different cycle.

• 2:18:50John Coogan?

  Different cycle, okay.

• 2:18:51Shaun Maguire?

  They announced their funds recently.

• 2:18:52John Coogan?

  Got it.

• 2:18:54Shaun Maguire?

  Something that I'm honestly very proud of. I joined Sequoia six years ago and I feel like this is the first fund cycle where we really have like a new team, a cracked generation of young people and that have been, now have been working together for five plus years. And so just, it really feels like we're firing all cylinders. We got Stephanie with, you know, skilled onstage with Jensen yesterday.

• 2:19:21John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:19:21Shaun Maguire?

  And, you know, Reflection. We got Konstantin hitting his stride with Expo and a bunch of other companies. You know, we got, everyone on the team has some amazing portfolio companies. You know, and then the growth team, you have so many great people. Pat, Andrew, you know.

• 2:19:39John Coogan?

  Andrew taking companies public every day now.

• 2:19:41Shaun Maguire?

  David, Sonja, Robbie, et cetera. And a whole new generation there, too.

• 2:19:44Jordi Hays?

  Any, any, any specific kind of like decision-making or insight around like how you guys decided kind of the fund sizes specifically? Was that, I'm sure, you know, based on a lot of learnings over the last few years and, and seems like a commitment to like driving, driving like real venture returns and staying committed to that. But what more can you say there?

• 2:20:07Shaun Maguire?

  Yeah, no, you nailed it. Something I think people kind of misunderstand about Sequoia, and look, I gotta drop the flex, but you know, Sequoia has this outsized history in terms of the scale of companies we've backed. Like, if you look at the NASDAQ, about 30% of the NASDAQ by market cap were early Sequoia, you know, companies. Pretty wild. But, but we actually don't invest in that many companies per year. Like, we really try to keep it pretty focused and targeted where we can be active company builders. And there was a pressure the last few years. And I would say like, we were, we got caught up a little during the COVID era,

• 2:20:51Shaun Maguire?

  as everyone did, and our pace increased. But we've just gone back to basics, and we're really just focused on ultra-high quality, like finding just true outlier founders that have really big vision and, and kind of rolling up our sleeves to help them build these companies. It's just, we're trying, we're trying to not get too caught up in any of the trends. We're trying to be like ahead of trends and, you know, keep the fund size just where we can actually have, we strive for minimum 10x net returns. Like, that is, that is our goal for every fund, and that's where we want to be.

• 2:21:29John Coogan?

  What about actual team structure, team size? Is, has there been any evolution in the thought process around how large the partnership is, how large the support structure is, the, the back office, the, you know, how all of that fits together? Is there anything that's structurally changing? Or do you see it as like, kind of just a slight evolution of the, of the, of the same plan?

• 2:21:56Shaun Maguire?

  Great question. So...

• 2:21:59Shaun Maguire?

  We're, you know, we, we have to be paranoid at Sequoia. Like that's our, our secret is being ultra paranoid and just trying to outwork everyone.

• 2:22:08John Coogan?

  Yeah. Didn't a Sequoia founder say that?

• 2:22:11Shaun Maguire?

  Something, I hope so.

• 2:22:12John Coogan?

  I think so.

• 2:22:14Shaun Maguire?

  But we went through a pretty hardcore generational transition, you know, five, six years ago. Most of the team was not here eight years ago. You have people like Ruloff and Alfred that have been here for a long time on the early team and, and kind of have helped and Doug, when he was active, helping to kind of bridge the generational divide. But I would say where we've innovated is kind of with new team. And then otherwise really trying to just stay true to the roots of Sequoia, active company building, you know, focus on both, like really trying to understand market structures and find outlier founders. I think that's, that's something that's different about Sequoia is it's, we're not, we're not like a, an or it's not founder or market. We're, it's an and like

• 2:22:57Shaun Maguire?

  we want founder and market. In terms of everything else, I would actually say we've almost gone back to basics a little bit more. Like, you know, we have, we have a wonderful operating team. And that's something that, you know, we built up over the last five or six years, but we've basically kept it pretty steady in terms of size. Like we, we feel good about where everything is and now we just need to execute.

• 2:23:22John Coogan?

  Okay. Defend the venture capitalist because I'm going to make the argument that the, that the venture capitalist, not Sequoia in particular, but venture capital as an entire category is cooked, chopped, destroyed. It's over. The game's over.

• 2:23:35Shaun Maguire?

  Agreed.

• 2:23:35John Coogan?

  And here's my thesis.

• 2:23:37Jordi Hays?

  What was Roloff's quote the other day? It's.

• 2:23:39John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:40Shaun Maguire?

  It's not an asset class. He said venture capital is not an asset class, which I a hundred percent agree with. It was a great quote.

• 2:23:46Jordi Hays?

  He said it's a reward free risk.

• 2:23:48John Coogan?

  It's a reward free risk. That's a great quote. But, uh, but specifically I want you to address this kind of, maybe it's a headwind, maybe it's not. You tell me. Um, there's this idea that, uh, You are a venture capitalist. You can see the future. You know that self-driving cars are company are coming and your options are Waymo and Tesla. Like you can't get venture exposure to that necessarily. Uh, you're excited about humanoid robotics. Oh, well Tesla's in that. Uh, you're excited about AI. Well, like if you wanted to play like OpenAI took a billion dollars from uh, from Microsoft and all the VCs were getting in in small slices. No one was able to build a 30% position in that company like they would have done in the previous era with a Facebook or with a Google.

• 2:24:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, John was texting me last night joking. He's like, it's absolutely criminal that Satya didn't get carry on the, on the OpenAI investment.

• 2:24:42John Coogan?

  And, and I mean, I, I don't know your thesis on quantum computing. It, it feels very early.

• 2:24:46Shaun Maguire?

  I love the Series A and IonQ, which is a public quantum computing company.

• 2:24:49John Coogan?

  Let's go. Okay.

• 2:24:51Shaun Maguire?

  And I did my PhD in the quantum information.

• 2:24:52John Coogan?

  So maybe that, so maybe that works. Yeah. Maybe we need to go there, but it feels like there's also competition from big hyperscalers in that market as well.

• 2:24:59Jordi Hays?

  We need the Martin Scrawley, Sean Maguire debate on quantum.

• 2:25:02John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:25:03Shaun Maguire?

  Well, I'm actually closer to Martin in a lot of, of views.

• 2:25:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:08Shaun Maguire?

  So.

• 2:25:09Jordi Hays?

  Maybe it would be an agreement.

• 2:25:10Shaun Maguire?

  The Martin Sean conversation rather than.

• 2:25:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:13John Coogan?

  Okay. So yeah, let's, let's, let's table quantum particular in, in particular and let's instead say, uh, how does venture capital play in a world where frontier technologies take $10 billion and 20 years to mature? Self-driving cars, AI, et cetera.

• 2:25:30Shaun Maguire?

  Look, I think Rulov nailed it when he said that venture capital is not an asset class. But we don't do it the way other people do, you know, and, and granted, there's a couple of funds I respect unbelievably deeply that have a lot in common with us.

• 2:25:48Jordi Hays?

  A couple.

• 2:25:50John Coogan?

  There are only two people I respect. There are two people I respect.

• 2:25:55Shaun Maguire?

  And there's, there's a couple of funds. But, but look, we're, we're really deeply involved oftentimes in like the formation of companies. I think in the last year, there's been at least five or six companies where we signed term sheets bef- or sorry, where we were involved in the putting together of companies like before, before they were even incorporated. You know, we were um, kind of structuring the companies, bringing the founders together. My partner David Kahn played a big role in bringing Kella together, for example.

• 2:26:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:25Shaun Maguire?

  Um, which is an Israeli defense tech company where, you know, there was a very talented founder and a bunch of us knew Alon Druor, who had a general idea, but he didn't have the right team for it. And I would say his initial idea was wrong. And we helped him with the idea and then David brought in, had a vision of bringing this woman Hummiton Maridor. And that combination is magic. Um, and I, I really, it's hard to explain how frequently we do that. And so it's like, if you're a passive investor at the late stage, there's no alpha today in VC or very little. But that's just not the game we play. We're extremely active. I mean, my partner Jim gets incubated Palo Alto Networks.

• 2:27:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:07Shaun Maguire?

  You know, Ruta, Ruloff, both uh, invested in YouTube with three people and they worked in the Sequoia office in the beginning. And I mean, I can give you so many examples like this. And so I just, we don't think of ourselves as, as just like an index on the basket. We're trying to like bend the arc on the asset class. And look, I'm going to give a shout out to Founders Fund. Like, they do this incredibly well. They've been incubating companies. They bring a founder mentality.

• 2:27:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:34Shaun Maguire?

  They're, you know, more passive.

• 2:27:35John Coogan?

  My, yeah, my, my, uh, I mean, yeah, obviously like Sequoia and Founders Fund, incredible returns. Like the model's clearly working. I guess maybe it doesn't matter that Sequoia and Founders Fund, like, I don't know. All, all the funds, it just feels like there's a world where uh, self-driving happens or some other big, huge, hu- humanoid robots. It happens, but it happens in a way that the value isn't captured by venture capitalists. And that's what I'm wondering.

• 2:28:06Shaun Maguire?

  I'm not worried, I'm not worried about it.

• 2:28:07John Coogan?

  You're not worried about that? Okay.

• 2:28:09Shaun Maguire?

  I'm not worried about it. I think there will be a lot of value captured in the public markets. You know, like one of the best, one of the best, you know, trades you can make in AI. The last five years, obviously buying Nvidia.

• 2:28:20John Coogan?

  Nvidia, yeah.

• 2:28:21Shaun Maguire?

  The same was true with crypto, though. Like you could just buy Bitcoin.

• 2:28:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:24Shaun Maguire?

  Buying Bitcoin outperformed basically every crypto investment.

• 2:28:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:29Shaun Maguire?

  But Coinbase was still an amazing investment. I think Bitcoin, like at almost every point in time, slightly outperformed Coinbase.

• 2:28:35John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:36Shaun Maguire?

  Um, maybe not.

• 2:28:37John Coogan?

  I've heard from investors that that's why they passed on Coinbase because they were like, I'll just buy Bitcoin. And

• 2:28:42Shaun Maguire?

  It's actually a big part of why Sequoia passed on Coinbase in the time.

• 2:28:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:45Shaun Maguire?

  Um, so look, like I, I think we've seen this play out many times before, but I'll give you a counterpoint.

• 2:28:51John Coogan?

  Funny thing in there is that the reason why Bitcoin has done so well is probably because there were VCs that were like, yeah, I'll pay for the R and D at Coinbase to make it accessible. And then the price went up. And so everyone else is, you, you and FF were free riding, maybe.

• 2:29:05Shaun Maguire?

  Yeah, we, we, we were. There's always been this dynamic, though, you know, like the famous telco build out in the late nineties, where global crossing and all the, you know, there were 17 fiber companies that went public and were very highly valued. And then investors lost all their money.

• 2:29:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:22Shaun Maguire?

  But that fiber build out laid the pathway for, you know, SaaS and then consumer internet companies in the early 2000s. Like this dynamic is always happening. And I, I think as investors, we just have to try to stay countercyclical, try to stay ahead of the bubbles, try to figure out what second order effects of the bubbles. Like whenever you concentrate huge amounts of capital, there will be all this new infrastructure that you can take advantage of. And, and so we're just, you know, like, defense tech is an area where we were not very active in before the war in Ukraine. And tragically, that war was a catalyst.

• 2:29:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:56Shaun Maguire?

  And you have to identify, like, even though you have a catalyst, there's probably only a six to 12 month window where defense tech is non-obvious. And so we made three or four, I think, really good investments in that period. You know, like Neuros, like Stark, like, um, you know, Kela a little after that. Um, and you just have to be ahead of the curve because like now I think defense tech is becoming

• 2:30:21John Coogan?

  consensus.

• 2:30:21Shaun Maguire?

  It's too obvious. And so it's like, valuations are incredibly high.

• 2:30:25John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:30:25Shaun Maguire?

  But it's just like, that's our job at Sequoia is to be ahead of the curve on these things. And, and there's just always going to be opportunities to make money if you're proactive.

• 2:30:33Jordi Hays?

  Venture capitalists buy minority positions in companies and you can be on the board and you can be adding value and helpful, but there's this, after you kind of deploy into a company, there can be kind of this grass is always greener thing where it's like you can meet like another five companies the next day and there's always like this influx of opportunity. You've been at Sequoia now for years and you have an opportunity to meet new companies every day or, you know, get on the phone with existing portfolio companies, some of which are maybe doing really well, some of which are maybe not. Like I was curious if Sequoia like has any lessons throughout history of companies that

• 2:31:16Jordi Hays?

  like, that you guys draw on of companies that kind of like hit rough patches and people were maybe less excited about, but like found a way to have, you know, get to another kind of inflection point. Because I feel like you have 50 years of history, a lot of being a great firm is just remembering what made you great and having these sort of like lessons that are like IP effectively.

• 2:31:38Shaun Maguire?

  Oh man, this is such an astute point. And, and look, I think this is one of the superpowers. I'd say Sequoia has a lot of superpowers. You know, one is we just have this network. A lot of the founders we backed were employees at, you know, prior Sequoia portfolio companies. So there's that flywheel. There's like the institutional knowledge, you know, moats. There's just like the, there's a customer moat where we have, there's so many companies that, you know, they've, someone that bought Wiz early and it made them look really good as a CISO or CIO, like they're more likely to buy like the next, like Eon, the next infrastructure company. So there's all, there's all these moats, but, or advantages. But on this one.

• 2:32:25Shaun Maguire?

  Incredibly astute point. Alfred Lin tells the story of how DoorDash really struggled to raise like at least one or two rounds of funding. You know, I'm sure you remember like Uber was the hottest company in the world for a long time and DoorDash was DoorDash was like number three or so in the space. It was really hard for them to raise. I think it was a series C, I may be off by like maybe a series B or D, but I think it was a series C.

• 2:32:48John Coogan?

  Postmates was pretty hot as well.

• 2:32:52Shaun Maguire?

  Postmates was hot.

• 2:32:53John Coogan?

  There were a bunch of legacy platforms like Grubhub and companies that had been around before too.

• 2:32:57Shaun Maguire?

  So it was a bloodbath. It was ultra competitive. Internet economics hadn't yet become positive. They really struggled to raise a round. You know, Airbnb, obviously like Sequoia was the first investor or led the sea down. Sorry, not first investor. They did YC, but you know, we invested $600,000, like a $3 million valuation. And they went through some incredibly hard times, even even like during COVID. I mean, for them, I remember Alfred's updates. It was just unbelievably brutal period. It was like easy to give up on them. And that may sound crazy, given the scale they're at today. But, you know, also with Elon, like SpaceX and Tesla were on the verge of death at multiple points.

• 2:33:38Shaun Maguire?

  And when you have these, when you have these experiences, like it really is an institutional knowledge, like, you know, weapon.

• 2:33:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, because it's just not, it's way less, it's way less fun to jump on the phone with a portco. That's like totally struggling and they're going to say like, hey, we need a bridge or can you introduce me to some, some more investors? And it's like, well, it's not fun to introduce a company that's struggling to other investors. Because it's way more fun to introduce a company that's ripping because you're like, you know, throwing a bone to them. I was curious to get a sense of like your activity in, in H1 of this year versus now. Have you picked up the pace? Have you slowed down at all? What's been? What's it been looking like?

• 2:34:27Shaun Maguire?

  I'm embarrassed. I saw the data recently, like a few weeks ago, but I have so much going on, including a lot of, you know, Twitter drama, as you guys see, and I somehow I don't remember the exact pacing data, and so I don't want to be wrong. We're a registered investment advisor now, so these things are

• 2:34:42Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:34:43Shaun Maguire?

  We get

• 2:34:43John Coogan?

  This is like doubly hard.

• 2:34:44Shaun Maguire?

  when we're wrong.

• 2:34:45John Coogan?

  Every time you come on, I want to ask you about stuff that you can't talk about because of RIA.

• 2:34:51Shaun Maguire?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:52John Coogan?

  And I don't care about whatever you're going viral for on Twitter. Can you talk about data centers in space? You're Caltech PhD. Do you understand it? Does it make sense to you?

• 2:35:02Shaun Maguire?

  Am I Team Delian or am I Team Data Centers?

• 2:35:04John Coogan?

  I wasn't gonna make, I wasn't gonna make it about that. You could be, you could, you could comment on it at a more abstract layer, uh, level, but, uh, but you know, you're obviously a big space investor.

• 2:35:16Shaun Maguire?

  Thought a lot about, I mean, like for 15 years, I started a failed space launch company in 2007. So, you know, and this is, this is an idea we actually thought a lot about. Look, I think, I think the reality is no one really knows.

• 2:35:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:30Shaun Maguire?

  And actually, something I told Delian with Varda, like, you know, I passed on Varda in the early days, which I should have made the investment. And the way I describe it to Delian now is I think he had the right macro idea and the wrong micro idea. And to unpack that, like, the micro idea is they wanted to make ZBland, this like ultra pure, you know, fiber optic cables. It's like, dude, we don't need ZBland in a world with Starlink. We're like, ZBland's good for long distance data movement. We're gonna do it all with Star, the long distance data movement's gonna happen in space with Starlink and, um, but then I think the macro idea of just building space infrastructure, building an incredible team, you know, building, like, learning how to build satellites.

• 2:36:14Shaun Maguire?

  I think that their timing couldn't be better, just in terms of what's gonna happen to the space economy over the next 10 years on the back of SpaceX and Starship.

• 2:36:21John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:36:21Shaun Maguire?

  And I think their ability to just concentrate talent and be in position to pounce when the opportunities come up is something that should not be underestimated. And so with some, with these data center companies in space, there are two very real Serious unknowns. One is like just the thermal properties dissipating heat in space is insanely hard. And anyone that says they figured it out right now, like they have not figured it out. They may figure it out in this in the

• 2:36:49Jordi Hays?

  And it's because you need a lot of surface area, right? Is that?

• 2:36:52Shaun Maguire?

  Yeah, there's basically, there's like no thermal connectivity or very little of space as a medium. And so heat that leaves any unit area, whatever in space, it just, it stays close to the satellite in space. And so you can move things around inside the satellite, but once heat leaves the satellite, it'll just heat up a little local pocket of space around you and takes a very long time to dissipate away from the satellite. And so like this is something no one really understands how it works. And the second is you have to deal with high energy particles that are going through your electronics. You don't have the, you know, earth's magnetic field shielding your electronics and there's,

• 2:37:35Shaun Maguire?

  you can have, you know, metal shielding and things like this, but no one really understands how this is going to work and how it will affect all the circuits and electronics. So these two things are hard. There's also like a big just time question around exactly when Starship will fly, like when cost will be passed to the, you know, launch companies. So I think some of these companies may be too early. And look, I actually think I'm more team Dalian on the micro. Like I think he has the right points that there's a lot of things that are unsolved right now on the micro side of data centers in space. But I just, I'm such a macro bull on space over the next 10, 15 years, that it's hard for me to bet against any team that is just building that like

• 2:38:20Jordi Hays?

  No how?

• 2:38:21Shaun Maguire?

  Talent, building the expertise, because I just think it's going to be such an exponential rising tide at some point in the next like 10 years. I can't tell you when that will start, but it'll be big.

• 2:38:31Jordi Hays?

  On the, on the SpaceX front, how, uh, there's been a lot of news over the last few weeks around, direct to sell, uh, partnerships between like SpaceX and, and other, you know, uh, you know, device manufacturers, et cetera. How screwed do you think a lot of the big telecom companies are over the next 10 years?

• 2:38:55Shaun Maguire?

  Look, I I don't think they're screwed. I think that when you have, I think that, I think, look, I think SpaceX is going to do unbelievably well. Unbelievably well, and I'm maximum bull on direct assault for SpaceX. But I think what happens, like, in the kind of most wild success scenario for SpaceX, SpaceX is providing like twenty, thirty percent of the world's mobile data in a decade or so. But I think that the total mobile data consumption will be like double at that point. So it's still like a seventy percent net increase for all the existing telcos. Because there's something, this is just like a fact of history. When a product gets better, people use it more.

• 2:39:40Shaun Maguire?

  And, you know, like, when you have the ability, when you don't have dead zones in cell service, when you have five G everywhere, you know, like, Optimus is going to come online, uh, you know, Tesla cars are going to come online, people are going to be, when you can, when you have really good mobile connectivity from the car, you're going to be streaming instead of, instead of like, ten twenty eight P, you're going to be streaming eight K content from your car while it's driving you. And so I just, I think it's going to be one of these things where rising tides lift all boats. But I would not underestimate how big of a deal it's going to be for SpaceX.

• 2:40:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's already an oligopoly, but there are multiple hundred billion dollar companies in the category. And so if it just becomes, even if, even if the market structure doesn't change, and there's just a new player in the oligopoly, that looks very, very good. We've asked a lot of people in the age of AI, should you learn to code? That's a less interesting question to me these days. I want to know, should you learn to deal? Should you learn the art of the deal? Because basically, is, is the art of the deal becoming a more important tool in the founder's tool chest? Because we've seen so many, so many, no, I, we, it really feels like there are founders out there

• 2:40:55John Coogan?

  who can just work magic and marshal capital and buyers and customers and the government and the government from a different country, and they get seventeen people to say, yes, this has to happen. And then all of a sudden, it happens and we get the thing. And it feels like it could be the beginning of, of a new archetype, a new founder archetype, or maybe it's an old archetype. But what do you think about learning to deal?

• 2:41:20Shaun Maguire?

  Yeah, look, I mean, first on the learning to code. I personally think that coding is gonna be like doing arithmetic a long time ago. Um, and it's just like, it won't be as interesting or valuable. Humans won't be doing that much of it. But I think it's very valuable to train your mind how to think. And so a lot of like, learning to code.

• 2:41:44Jordi Hays?

  Like thinking, is that kinda like thinking mode?

• 2:41:46Shaun Maguire?

  Yeah, I think, sure, thinking mode, thinking mode, deal mode. But look, I think, I think like even more extreme than, I mean, even more extreme way to train your mind to think is, is doing pure mathematics. And so like, if a kid's asking what to major in today, I mean, my answer would be like, do pure math or physics, which are the maximum ways to train your mind to think, you know? Or learn huge social skills, like just don't even go to college. But you know, if you do, be frat president.

• 2:42:15John Coogan?

  Our intern over here, our, our intern in TVV is on a gap semester studying physics and is now hanging out here. And he's just like nodding, just being like, I'm patting myself on the back, Sean McGuire says I did everything right.

• 2:42:28Jordi Hays?

  Uh, curious, kinda last question, I wish we could hang out longer, but um, we're packed to back.

• 2:42:33Shaun Maguire?

  I'm gonna come to your Thunderdome soon.

• 2:42:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, next one should be in person.

• 2:42:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:42:38Jordi Hays?

  What are you seeing, how is the government shutdown affecting uh, defense tech companies that, that you're seeing or talking to?

• 2:42:45John Coogan?

  Oh yeah, that's a good question.

• 2:42:46Shaun Maguire?

  I'm gonna give the brutal, brutally honest version, which is what I try to always do, at least my own opinion. Um, it's a tale of haves and have nots. So I work with a few companies that are, you know, getting absolutely reamed by it. But I also work with a couple of companies where it hasn't really affected them.

• 2:43:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:08Shaun Maguire?

  And basically like, if you have something that the government absolutely needs, like maybe they can't send you the money right now, but they're still giving you the phone call and telling, you know, and like, you know, telling you that.

• 2:43:21Jordi Hays?

  Giving you the signal.

• 2:43:21Shaun Maguire?

  Expect after, you know, after the shutdown ends and, you know, we can still give you the award. We just can't, you know, tell you the exact dollar amount, because we need congressional approval on the exact dollar amount. And it's, it's a tale of haves and have nots. Um.

• 2:43:38Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's a really good signal, to be honest, at least as an investor, to be like, is what I'm investing in a nice to have or a need to have?

• 2:43:45Shaun Maguire?

  For sure. It's very clarifying.

• 2:43:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, cool. Uh, great to catch up.

• 2:43:52John Coogan?

  Always fun. Congrats on the new, uh, we need to ring the gong for Sequoia Capital.

• 2:43:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, they deserve a gong.

• 2:43:57John Coogan?

  No one thought this would happen.

• 2:43:58Jordi Hays?

  Two gong hits for the two new funds.

• 2:44:02Jordi Hays?

  Still got it. There we go.

• 2:44:04Shaun Maguire?

  Thank you, boys. You guys are legends. Keep crushing. Bye.

• 2:44:08Jordi Hays?

  See you soon. Thanks for coming on.

• 2:44:09Shaun Maguire?

  Bye.

• 2:44:11John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about fin.ai, the number one AI agent for customer service. Number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bake offs, number one ranking on G2. You can go to fin.ai to get started and we have Aneel Chakravarthy from Adobe in the restream waiting room. Let's bring him into the TDP and Ultra Dome. Aneel, great to meet you.

• 2:44:32Jordi Hays?

  What a setup. It's almost like you guys are in the creative industry.

• 2:44:35John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:44:36Speaker 08

  Yeah, likewise. Great to meet you and thanks for having me on.

• 2:44:39John Coogan?

  Thanks for hopping on. Uh, I assume you're at Max. Take us through the big headline news. What's the, what, what are the most exciting things happening in the Adobe ecosystem these days?

• 2:44:48Speaker 08

  Yeah, I'm coming here live from Max in LA. We have over 10,000 people, everybody from individual creators to people in Hollywood who work with creative, in the creative industry, enterprise customers, all kinds of people. It's been really exciting. Obviously, it's all about how we bringing, uh, we're bringing AI in the creative tools that everybody loves and knows so well. Uh, and we're really talking about how to make responsible use of AI, right? You know, uh, we have our own models with Firefly and we had had a ton of innovations around Firefly, which is, you know, designed to be commercially safe, but we announced a big partnership with Google and on Vio and Imagine. And there are all kinds of other third party models that are now integrated, um, into our tools, uh, Runway and Luma

• 2:45:31Speaker 08

  and many, many others. And then we also announced how we can, um, help customers with their own custom models. So we call it Firefly models, partner models, your models. And, you know, if you are Disney or Home Depot or, uh, New Ulm brands, how do you have a, um, an AI model that really protects your IP and becomes your brand brain? Uh, so that's really what, uh, what's really what's been exciting.

• 2:45:56John Coogan?

  How are you thinking about the the creative journey of the customer? I feel like there's probably people in the audience who might have became an Adobe customer by pirating a version of Photoshop in 1998. And now they pay for cloud every month. But you know, now there's even more varieties of like niche use cases where a consumer can use a point solution. And then they grow and grow and grow into the ecosystem. Is it more important than ever that you set up teams to capture those long tail interactions? Just a face swap over here, just a background remover over here and then funnel everyone into the ecosystem?

• 2:46:39John Coogan?

  Or do you want to focus on just capturing people once they're ready to to go into the enterprise workflows?

• 2:46:47Speaker 08

  Yeah, you know, exactly. As you mentioned, we have such a wide variety here of people who had their journey with Adobe. We had a Brandon Baum on stage who was exactly like what you said.

• 2:46:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:59Speaker 08

  He said he was 11 years old when he started using a cracked copy.

• 2:47:03John Coogan?

  This is the thing.

• 2:47:04Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 2:47:04John Coogan?

  No longer.

• 2:47:05Speaker 08

  Exactly. After Effects. And he said he's a paying subscriber now.

• 2:47:08John Coogan?

  Of course, of course.

• 2:47:09Speaker 08

  And then, you know, what he said was, you know, he said he started playing with it when he was a kid. He got hooked on it.

• 2:47:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:15Speaker 08

  And he showed how you can do it with Firefly. I mean, he posted something yesterday. And, you know, he did a video that he created with Firefly. And then, you know, he got some comments and said, somebody said, hey, it looks like this is going to be a plot twist here. And so he did the plot twist on stage today. He used Firefly and all the tools to just take the next episode in that story. So we've got all types, you know, you got enterprise customers who are like, hey, we would love to use all these new gen AI tools. It's got to get through our systems, our regulation, our compliance. Adobe, people trust Adobe. So if you can make it available, it becomes so much easier to use all of this innovation.

• 2:47:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:56Speaker 08

  And then we have a lot of people, like you said, who have their favorite tools. And they want to see all this AI in their favorite tools. And then there are many, many others, you know. Uh, we think uh, maybe more than half the people at Max are attending for the first time.

• 2:48:12Jordi Hays?

  Wow.

• 2:48:12Speaker 08

  So they just want everything on a mobile app.

• 2:48:15Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:15Speaker 08

  They, they don't have the, you know, desktop machine with Photoshop on it. They're the know every layer and all of that. So they just want it on their uh, on, on their, on their mobile app. And so we got all types of the creative journey. Ideas can strike you anywhere and we wanted to help you turn that into creatively.

• 2:48:33Jordi Hays?

  What's your, what's your read on how Hollywood's been navigating Gen AI? We're here in LA ourselves and uh, when I, when we talk to people in the industry on or off air, it seems like everyone is trying to be, get ahead and be, and, and leverage the tools to the best of their ability. But there's this pressure to not piss off the broader industry of people that, that make it possible. But uh, what's been the read from, from people that are talking at the event? Uh, because there's a little bit of like, if you're too much at the bleeding edge and too loud, you know, you might get uh, people, people might come after you.

• 2:49:12Speaker 08

  Yeah, exactly. They're threading the needle. Uh, exactly. They are excited about the potential. They see what AI can potentially do in terms of everything from ideation, uh, from helping cre- create and make those uh, uh, make the movies and other content for TV. And then also then getting the audience to participate, you know, everybody can have, it's so easy to create variations and get uh, get, get the, you know, make it more like fan experience that like the sports teams are doing.

• 2:49:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:42Speaker 08

  So they, they're really interested in all of that potential. Uh, but like you said, uh, they want to make sure it's top-notch quality. They want to make sure their IP is protected and that they're not, you know, even unwittingly stepping on somebody else's toes. Um, and they want to make sure that uh, they're doing it in a way that's monetizable and that uh, you know, it's uh, uh, gives them a recurring revenue stream. So uh, exactly like you said, they are threading that needle.

• 2:50:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:10John Coogan?

  Very cool.

• 2:50:11Jordi Hays?

  Did you have a product request, by the way?

• 2:50:13John Coogan?

  I did. I want you to bring back Photoshop Mix. I was a huge user of Photoshop Mix and my favorite features got deprecated. And I moved to Photoshop Express and then I got a new phone. And one of the features, the one random feature that I use got deprecated again. And so now I am on the full Photoshop iOS app, the official Photoshop iOS app. And I'm learning it, but I do feel like one of my children was left behind in the, on the Titanic or something and I was left.

• 2:50:47Speaker 08

  So I will ask the product team to take a little bit. Have you tried Firefly? Have you checked Firefly out?

• 2:50:51John Coogan?

  I haven't, I haven't. But, but I understand, like, this is the nature of, of, of building a large scaled, you know, business. You need to move people through the different feature funnels. You can't keep every, otherwise it just becomes all tech debt. So I understand why things go the way they do. But as, as a dedicated user of the legacy app.

• 2:51:11Jordi Hays?

  Why, in as, as few words as possible, because we're running out of time. Why, what's your read on, on, like, specifically, I think people, the bear, the bears out there think that, that AI is disruptive, could be disruptive to the Adobe ecosystem. Give, we're a creative business, we're a media company. We're constantly creating media and advertisements and things like that. Our view has been that it's, it seems more obviously to be an extending innovation. Or, or people being able to generate a video, an image or a video. And then suddenly have that asset and be like, well, now I want to change it. Well, what tool are you going to use, right? It's probably a tool within the Adobe ecosystem.

• 2:51:53Jordi Hays?

  So in as few words as possible, what's your view on why AI

• 2:51:59Jordi Hays?

  would be an extending innovation for the Adobe kind of suite of products?

• 2:52:03Speaker 08

  Yeah, you know, we look at it as the evolution of a new operating system and we are the creative AI platform that runs on new operating systems. You know, when you look at our history, when it was desktops, I mean, we ran on Mac OS and Windows OS when it became cloud. You know, whether it was with AWS or Microsoft Azure or with, you know, with GCP and others. When it became mobile, whether it was iOS or Android. So we have the history and the track record of making sure that we work very well with emerging new operating systems. And the new AI is the new operating system now. You know, you have to believe, and I think it's a simplistic view that the operating system will do everything that the apps do.

• 2:52:46Speaker 08

  And yeah, I mean, that just seems in our view very simplistic. So we think much obviously from our perspective that we're good at working with these new operating systems. That's what we announced with Google yesterday and, you know, we actually showed within ChatGPT how you can work with Adobe tools like Express. So it's evolving of how they, you know, what do the operating systems do and what do the apps continue to do? And there's new layers of AI, but that's the architecture is evolving fast. But we think that you need both. I don't think it's either or, and that's where we think the world is going to be.

• 2:53:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, I've used so many of these little point solution AI tools. And I've just, I feel like I've seen a glimpse of where this all goes and it's like, I actually do want a platform that then can sub out different models so I can get Firefly or VO or Mid Journey or, you know, hopefully you wind up building a platform that's so open that all the different features and models are there. And it's just like having the Lasso tool next to the rectangle tool, next to the text tool. And that's a very natural progression for Adobe, in my opinion. It seems very logical.

• 2:53:52Speaker 08

  Now, we got to get you on our consumer advisory board. I mean, you really summed it up really.

• 2:53:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I hate that I lost my Photoshop mix. Some strong opinions.

• 2:54:01Speaker 08

  We're going to bring it back for you.

• 2:54:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, but I, no, no, no, no, no. I don't, I don't actually think you need to. I think you actually do need me to suffer a little bit to get into the proper full-fledged ecosystem that has all the tools in one place, because that's where the actual value is right now. Everyone knows that you can spin up a website that's a text box and it generates one asset, one image, one video. But that's not how creativity works. We're not just going to one-shot a two-hour movie.

• 2:54:31Speaker 08

  Exactly, exactly. No, you should really check out Firefly. I think you'll enjoy it.

• 2:54:34John Coogan?

  Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 2:54:37Jordi Hays?

  Great to meet you.

• 2:54:37John Coogan?

  Great to chat and congratulations and have fun at Adobe Max. I've been seeing a ton of people, friends of mine posting that they're there. Wish I could be there. Hopefully in a future year, we'll be able to attend. It'd be great.

• 2:54:49Speaker 08

  Thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.

• 2:54:51John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon. Have a good one. Before we bring on our next guest, let me tell you about Adio, Customer Relationship Magic. Adio is the AI-native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level. You can get started for free.

• 2:55:03Jordi Hays?

  And up next, we have Bryn Putnam from Board.

• 2:55:08John Coogan?

  Board.

• 2:55:09Jordi Hays?

  Board. It's just Board. I was looking for the name and it was right in front of me. So great to meet you. Incredible launch yesterday. I think I love. My favorite launches to see are ideas that when you see them, they just seem so incredibly obvious. And yet, no one thought of it or thought to take it seriously enough and take it into a real product. So it's great to meet you. Would love sort of introduction and quick background on yourself. And then we can talk all about the business.

• 2:55:41Speaker 09

  Yeah, so nice to meet you as well. I'm a huge fan. I'm excited for the gong. I'm here for the gong.

• 2:55:50Speaker 09

  So yeah, so founder and CEO of Board. Board is the first ever face-to-face gaming console that blends the best of board games and video games into an entirely new way to play. What we've done is taken a 24-inch touchscreen and trained it to do something that no other screen does, which is recognize not just fingers and gestures, but also physical game pieces. So it knows what the piece is, where it is on the board, and what it's doing. So it's an entirely new way to play together.

• 2:56:22Jordi Hays?

  Amazing. Walk through the kind of aha moment when you decided to build this? Because again, it's so obvious. People love board games. People love video games. Why not put it together? Did you, when you started thinking about this, was, did you look throughout history? It kind of, was there any other attempts that stood out on things like this? Like, walk us through that kind of early creative process.

• 2:56:48Speaker 09

  Yeah, so I always end up just building from personal frustration and pain. So I, the proud mom now of five kids, I've got two kids and three stepkids.

• 2:56:59Jordi Hays?

  Amazing.

• 2:57:01Speaker 09

  Maybe I'll get my gong there, you know, ranging from two to two to 21. So we were just trying to figure out ways to connect and we would play board games and we'd have to play Candy Land so my two-year-old could join, or we'd try to play video games and the teenagers would smoke us because they've clocked so many hours on modern controllers and it just felt like there had to be something that was a lot more fun and intuitive. And so really the unlock was like, could we use a piece like a controller? So you put the spaceship down and it shoots, you put the stairs down and the characters walk up it. And it was just really a way personally for me to bring my family together.

• 2:57:37Jordi Hays?

  That's amazing. Johnny's back with a gong. Hit it, hit it again. Once for board, once for the five kids. Second time. That's a, so, so how do you, what's it like kind of building, building the console and the games themselves at the same time? And then do you plan to, I'm assuming you're planning to open up kind of a platform over time, but, but maybe start with the first question?

• 2:58:02Speaker 09

  Yeah. So, you know, I've always felt like if you really care about a great experience, you kind of always end up wanting to control the full stack. In my last gig, I built a company called Mirror and we built custom hardware, software and content. And same thing here, as you start to design the experience you want, you realize you need to control the hardware, the software and also the games. I think the hard part this time was the games. So finding the fun is, is not an easy formula. Getting the hardware and software to all work is incredibly challenging and required of a lot of deep technical knowledge. But, you know, you could keep making the games forever and then eventually you just decide

• 2:58:44Speaker 09

  you got to ship. But ultimately for us, we're building a platform and an ecosystem. So we want to build a place where people can come and build cool experiences around this shared screen using physical pieces. So it's really about building a place where other multi-billion dollar businesses can be born.

• 2:59:00John Coogan?

  This is one of the greatest like second company serial entrepreneur stories because I I don't want to simplify it, but it's like mirror was like a big screen on a wall and now it's a big screen on a

• 2:59:11Jordi Hays?

  A table.

• 2:59:12John Coogan?

  A lot of the, there has to be so many like

• 2:59:15Jordi Hays?

  Well, it's also, it's also so many, so many hardware, so many hardware companies just don't make it. So there is no second companies because if

• 2:59:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:22Jordi Hays?

  The developer gets so burnt out that they're like, I'm not doing that again.

• 2:59:26John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's for sure.

• 2:59:27Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but yeah, I guess, I guess like, how do you think about, uh, I feel like part of the success with board is like, there will be a specific game that ultimately drives, I would ima- I imagine it'll be somewhat of a power law. Video games are very power law driven. So it's like, I'm sure you have confidence in the first game, but it's possible that it'll take a little bit or a while to have like the hit that makes the product go totally mainstream. So it's like, how do you balance that? Uh, needing like the games being like a hits business, right? There's been a bunch of board games and there's one monopoly, right?

• 3:00:03Speaker 09

  Totally. I mean, we think about it really as our job is to show off what's possible with this new technology. So our job is to show the breadth of the portfolio. So we've got quick arcade hits to deep 3D spatial strategy games and really a lot of incredible physical digital interactions. And we think that the great game is probably going to come from someone we don't know yet. So really our job is to just let a thousand flowers bloom and then see what happens. Um, but we feel confident that with this, this first set of 12 launch games, we're kind of showing what's possible with this new way of playing and we're really excited just to get people building on board.

• 3:00:41John Coogan?

  Uh, do you think that there are, uh, like it's exciting to see where the V2 of the technology where you can do unique games that take advantage of this hardware specifically, understanding that the pieces touch the screen and they're identifiable. Um, but is there also some value just to being like, uh, like I've played settlers at Catan on an iPad. Like it is a good experience just because it's a good game. And so is there a world where you want to on day one, take advantage of a particular app store or catalog that's already there? Even if you're not taking a big cut, you're just kind of bootstrapping the experience so that people are like, oh, well, you know, I, I didn't like that game, but it's a 24 inch iPad and I was able to use, you know, the game that I liked on day one.

• 3:01:25Speaker 09

  Yeah, I mean, this was like the big debate, right? New and native or porting IPs. And we made the less safe choice, I would say, to go new and native because we felt we were doing something really novel and we had a really novel technology and we needed games that that fit the tech. So, you know, the Wii Remote unlocked Wii Sports and Swipe on Mobile unlocked Angry Birds. And we felt like we have a similar, you know, a similar technology. But I think there's definitely a future where characters or IP that you're familiar with come alive in a new and native way on board. We've had a lot of exciting outreach from

• 3:01:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, even in the last 24 hours.

• 3:02:00Speaker 09

  Yeah, so it's been a it's been a quite a quite a 24 hours of inbounds on social for us. Not every day you get a Mick Jagger posting about your product within the first 24 hours. It's been fun.

• 3:02:14Jordi Hays?

  That's amazing. Well, I also just bought one live here on the air. You can check Shopify. I love I love shop. I love Shop Pay. I'm like, I'm on the website. It's for sale. What you're shipping these already? Is that correct? Or is it? I didn't even check. So.

• 3:02:29Speaker 09

  Yeah, we started shipping the

• 3:02:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, we're arriving 2030, Jordy.

• 3:02:33Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 3:02:33John Coogan?

  2035, right around AGI is when you're gonna get it. No, no.

• 3:02:37Speaker 09

  No, we ship the week of 11/10. So shipping in a week or two.

• 3:02:43John Coogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:02:43Jordi Hays?

  How did you plan around supply? This feels like the like this could be the holiday gift of the season if you have the supply. Like, how do you plan around? Have you been planning around inventory?

• 3:02:55Speaker 09

  Yeah. So one of the nice things about it being kind of the the second go around is we're working with a tier one CM out of Thailand who has a lot of experience with display products. And so they're really adept at being able to scale inventory quickly as we start to get demand signals. But it's definitely going to be a busy holiday for all of us.

• 3:03:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's crazy. John, can we get a gong for Mick Jagger? Kevin, one of the designers. Gong for Mick Jagger.

• 3:03:22Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 3:03:22Jordi Hays?

  Well, congratulations to the whole team. It's super exciting. I can't wait to, uh, can't wait to try it. We'll have to, well, I'm sure there'll be a game that we can play here, uh, on, on air to settle disputes and I'm excited to play with, uh, with my family, uh, back home.

• 3:03:37Speaker 09

  I love it.

• 3:03:38John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 3:03:39Speaker 09

  Thank you guys so much for having me.

• 3:03:40Jordi Hays?

  Awesome. We'll talk soon.

• 3:03:42John Coogan?

  What's the domain, by the way?

• 3:03:43Jordi Hays?

  Board.fun.

• 3:03:44Speaker 09

  Oh, yeah. Board.fun. Available today at Board.fun.

• 3:03:47John Coogan?

  Board.fun.

• 3:03:48Jordi Hays?

  I'm normally a dot com purist, but Board.fun.

• 3:03:50John Coogan?

  Board.fun works, yeah.

• 3:03:51Jordi Hays?

  Love it.

• 3:03:52Speaker 09

  Me too. But you gotta go with the dot fun.

• 3:03:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, very fun.

• 3:03:55John Coogan?

  Uh, this is such an exciting story. I'm seriously so excited about this company. It's amazing. Just like the perfect founder of everything. I'm, I'm, I'm very excited. Congratulations.

• 3:04:05Jordi Hays?

  Uh, did you, did you announce, last question, did you announce, uh, fundraise already? Did you ever announce it? Uh, is that?

• 3:04:13Speaker 09

  We ha- we haven't yet, so we raised, um, 15 million in funding. We were, um, lucky to have, um, founder, uh, funds we've worked with before, Lair, Box, um, and then some, first round, and then some new folks, Adjacent, Patron, uh, Metodora, SV Angel, uh, joined, so, uh, now kicking off our series A now.

• 3:04:34John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 3:04:35Jordi Hays?

  All right, well.

• 3:04:36John Coogan?

  Another gong.

• 3:04:37Jordi Hays?

  We'd love to chat about that. Another gong then.

• 3:04:39Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 3:04:40Jordi Hays?

  There you go. This was a very gong-heavy segment.

• 3:04:42John Coogan?

  Gong-heavy.

• 3:04:43Jordi Hays?

  But, uh, uh, putting on, putting on a masterclass and, uh, yeah, can't wait to play.

• 3:04:48John Coogan?

  Very excited.

• 3:04:49Speaker 09

  Thanks, guys.

• 3:04:50John Coogan?

  Have a great rest of your day.

• 3:04:51Jordi Hays?

  Cheers. Shoppe is just so good.

• 3:04:55John Coogan?

  So good.

• 3:04:56Jordi Hays?

  You can just buy stuff during interviews.

• 3:04:58John Coogan?

  Uh, our next guest is already in the Restream waiting room, but quickly, let me tell you about adquick.com. Out-of-home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out-of-home advertising. Only Adquick combines technology, out-of-home expertise, and data to enable efficient, seamless ad-buying across the globe. We have George Kurtz from CrowdStrike in the Restream waiting room. Welcome to the show, George. Great to meet you. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and chat with us on this busy GTC, uh, part-time of the year. Uh, would love to get an introduction on you and, and just, uh, just a little bit of an overview of what's new in your world, what's new at GTC.

• 3:05:38George Kurtz?

  Sure, so George Kurtz, founder and CEO of CrowdStrike, leading provider of security solutions. And I think the big announcement, many big announcements at GTC, but certainly on the security side, was continued partnership with Nvidia. We have AI's leader and securities leader coming together to provide greater protection for customers. And that was a big part of our announcement that Jensen went through. And, you know, we're excited to be working with them. We've been working with them for for years now. And to see it all come together as part of GTC, I think, was just fantastic.

• 3:06:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, take us a layer deeper. You could be, they could be a customer of yours. You're securing them as a company. You're baking it into the chips. There's a wide row. You're buying chips from them. There's so many different ways to partner with Nvidia these days.

• 3:06:26George Kurtz?

  Yeah, so as you know, and I think a big part of his talk was Nvidia being the platform company.

• 3:06:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:32George Kurtz?

  He sort of joked saying like, hey, you know, we don't even sell things to people. Like, everything's embedded into other systems and you got to use the platform, which is part of what we've done. If you look at what they've come out with, they've got something called Nematron, which are open models that customers can use and build their own AI agents. So really, this particular announcement was focused on bringing security and visibility from an AI agent perspective to the edge. So we've got something called Charlotte, which is our agentic technology, which allows our customers to identify and understand threats and do a lot of the work of what a security analyst would do, which many times is sort

• 3:07:15George Kurtz?

  of a one-to-one relationship between a threat and an analyst. And now with our security AI agents, we can do the work of many analysts and one analyst can control those agents. So that's what Charlotte does. Now Charlotte, with this announcement, has the ability to actually talk to Other AI agents leveraging the Nemotron models and the NIM inference microservices. So as those agents are closer to where AI is created or on-prem or in a data center, you want to have very quick visibility into what's happening. And in many times, customers have their own AI agents where they're not shipping maybe sensitive data to the cloud. It might be a network diagram or might be other sensitive information. So Charlotte can now talk to these other AI agents that are at the edge to make better

• 3:08:00George Kurtz?

  decisions and they're always continuously learning. So we're one of the premier security partners for Nvidia and that was part of our announcement.

• 3:08:08Jordi Hays?

  Does vibe coding scare you?

• 3:08:11George Kurtz?

  I love vibe coding. I'm an investor in the world. I do it myself on my own website.

• 3:08:15Jordi Hays?

  It's also good for good for CrowdStrike, right? It's like people are going to just make a lot of software quickly. They probably need to spend more on cybersecurity, too.

• 3:08:23George Kurtz?

  They do. So, you know, the the old joke many years ago was like, you know, you'd have people come out of university and they would just go to any number of the repositories and they would just grab their code snippet and slap it in. And if something was poorly written, it would just propagate everywhere, right? You'd have this big problem. And now, you know, some of the coding that you get, some is very good, but you have to give it the right prompt, is inefficient and it looks like an intern wrote it. So it's gotten a lot better, you know, in the later generations, but that does become potentially problematic. And given the rise of AI, the ability to actually find these software vulnerabilities has increased dramatically. I mean, we're seeing AI find more and more and more vulnerabilities and sort of leading

• 3:09:07George Kurtz?

  the charge on these bug bounties because they're so efficient at finding software flaws.

• 3:09:11John Coogan?

  CrowdStrike has something like 10,000 employees. How do you think that? How are you thinking about human capital allocation over the next decade? Is it is AI changing your philosophy about the shape of the workforce? Yeah.

• 3:09:27George Kurtz?

  Yeah, I think there's two pieces to it. One is on the security side, which is specific to how do you leverage AI agents to do more work on behalf of customer. What we found is, at least in my mind, the more AI you have, the more work you can actually get done. And security is that you're always up against it. You're up against the clock from an adversary perspective. And there's just so much data to get through and so many threats that let the machine do what it's really good at. Let it sift through this data, let it figure out what's happening. And then, again, what happens is those security analysts become really the pilots, right? Where they're piloting these AI agents.

• 3:10:04George Kurtz?

  And you can think about it akin to maybe, you know, a Waymo or automated taxi or autonomous taxi, I should say, where you've got all these autonomous chauffeurs, but then you have sort of the pilot in the cloud if you get stuck. And I've been in, you know, these things where they've gotten stuck and they wait and, you know, somebody pilots it, gives it a waypoint or what have you. And that's really how security is going to be transformed, where the human is not going to be out of the loop, but they're going to be able to do so much more. So it's about helping people up, not out. That's the way I look at it from a security perspective. Now, if I put my CEO hat on, I think most CEOs are looking at, well, how do you get efficiencies from AI in running a business, you know, and looking in areas like legal

• 3:10:48George Kurtz?

  and sales, obviously, and coding, like how do you do more with the people you have? And I think the big thing is always like, how do you flatten the hiring curve? Doesn't mean you're getting rid of a whole bunch of people, but if you could be more efficient because the people you have can do more, you can flatten the hiring curve, which, you know, ultimately adds leverage to the business model. So we're always looking at how to take people and upskill them and train them up. And that's what we've done internally. And that's also what we're looking at for customers that are using security technologies like CrowdStrike.

• 3:11:18Jordi Hays?

  What's the, in your view, the most significant, like, Gen AI-related security incident to date that's public? Is there one that comes to mind?

• 3:11:29John Coogan?

  He's like.

• 3:11:29Jordi Hays?

  You're like, I usually hear about the ones that we try to keep them out of the headline. No, but we were talking the other day, the fact that that there's been this explosion of software and we it didn't, we didn't immediately have one that came to mind.

• 3:11:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:42Jordi Hays?

  That felt like.

• 3:11:43John Coogan?

  You could squarely pin on Gen AI. It actually feels like we've been doing pretty well on security.

• 3:11:48George Kurtz?

  Yeah, there, there's actually, uh, this is sort of the scary part of where the industry is going. Um, there was some, some new malware that was found that was basically Gen AI malware or what I would call autonomous malware. So if you think about malware, you might, you know, you and your audience might be familiar with it, you know, you have a program that's bad. And in the old days, the Mac feet and semantics of the world used to have these databases that would go, okay, that's a bad file. We're just not going to let it run. And over the years, companies like ours, we've created this sort of math model where without even seeing it, we can tell if something's bad and we block it. That's kind of old hat, but now the new malware is basically Gen AI, meaning, um, if it drops on your system.

• 3:12:29George Kurtz?

  Okay, it looks like, like, like a script. It doesn't even look like a, like a compiled program. And essentially it uses prompts to figure out, okay, what system are you on?

• 3:12:39John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:12:40George Kurtz?

  What is unique about that system?

• 3:12:41John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:12:42George Kurtz?

  What data can I harvest? And how do I learn more about the network I'm on so I can pivot? And I can jump to another system that we might, might be more interesting. So the fact that it doesn't necessarily have a command and control back to the pilot.

• 3:12:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, just pure reason.

• 3:12:56George Kurtz?

  Autonomously.

• 3:12:57John Coogan?

  That's fascinating.

• 3:12:58George Kurtz?

  It can reason.

• 3:12:59John Coogan?

  It can reason.

• 3:12:59George Kurtz?

  Yeah, like the, like, like the best, uh, security pen testers or like the best, uh, of the nation state actors that are, you know, piloting it themselves. So it's a pretty scary thought to have autonomous malware.

• 3:13:12Jordi Hays?

  Did you, did you start CrowdStrike so you could, uh, get more involved with motorsports?

• 3:13:19George Kurtz?

  Well, it's been a passion of mine, but it's been a big part of our overall brand. You probably see us.

• 3:13:25John Coogan?

  We love it.

• 3:13:26George Kurtz?

  It's like Formula One. And, you know, our customers like it and it's just kind of part of the ethos. But it's, you know, it's been just part of what we've done early on.

• 3:13:36Jordi Hays?

  Do you try to, do you try to get to as many of the F1 races as you, as you can? Or what's your, do you try to, do you have to limit yourself? Cause I know, we know, we know some sponsors and, and like, they've got a pretty heavy travel schedule. They're like, we sponsor this team for the next two seasons. We're going to be at every race. And I'm like, you might want to work on your business, but.

• 3:13:56George Kurtz?

  Yeah, yeah, we, we actually just picked the, the big ones for us, obviously the big US ones. Uh, and then we host customers at those. Uh, we actually have what we call CXL roundtables. So we combine security and the technology of motor racing and it's a passion. You know, security is a mission for a lot of people at Crouch, right? And a lot of our customers, I mean, we can be doing lots of things, but we love the fight against the bad guys. And bring those people together to talk about the technology and the speed of cybersecurity and the risk management of cybersecurity. There's a lot of analogs into motor racing. It's speed, it's technology, it's data, it's risk-taking or managing risk. Um, and it's been a big part of, uh, I think just our brand.

• 3:14:38Jordi Hays?

  It's incredible.

• 3:14:39John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 3:14:40Jordi Hays?

  Uh, well, we will, uh, we'll hopefully run into you at, uh, in Vegas for, for F1.

• 3:14:45George Kurtz?

  If you're going to be there, let's coordinate. We'll give you, uh, give you a whole tour of the Mercedes paddock and the garage. Uh, we'll go, uh, we'll go have some fun.

• 3:14:55John Coogan?

  That'd be fantastic.

• 3:14:56Jordi Hays?

  Uh, well, uh, next time there's a massive public security incident in Gen AI, we're going to give you a ring and we'll get you back on and, uh, have you break it down. But, uh, thank you, thank you for coming on and, uh, congrats on all the progress and thanks for, thanks for keeping us, uh, safe out there.

• 3:15:12George Kurtz?

  You got it. Thanks, guys.

• 3:15:14Jordi Hays?

  Awesome.

• 3:15:14George Kurtz?

  We'll talk soon.

• 3:15:15Jordi Hays?

  Great to hang, George.

• 3:15:15John Coogan?

  Have a good one. Bye.

• 3:15:18John Coogan?

  We should have done more time with him. I love CrowdStrike because every time I get one, I get nerd sniped by CrowdStrike reports like all the time. Whenever there's like, like when solar winds happen, like CrowdStrike tells the story of it and they're always gripping and they do a ton of good work out there. So, thank you to everyone at CrowdStrike, to all 10,000 plus employees. And thank you to 8Sleep, 8Sleep.com. Get a Pod5 Ultra. Get a five-year warranty.

• 3:15:45Jordi Hays?

  So.

• 3:15:45John Coogan?

  30-day free trial.

• 3:15:46Jordi Hays?

  I ran.

• 3:15:48John Coogan?

  Also thank you to Bezel. You're Bezel Concierge, available to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch.

• 3:15:53Jordi Hays?

  I ran off-screen for a second and caught Brian on the way out and he was saying like, "Yeah," I told him like, "Yeah, I've been a little less healthy the last year running the show than historically." And he's like, "Yeah, I've heard some of your, you know, 8Sleep updates."

• 3:16:08John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 3:16:08Jordi Hays?

  Sleep scores.

• 3:16:09John Coogan?

  You said you're 8Sleep.

• 3:16:11Jordi Hays?

  Been hearing my sleep scores.

• 3:16:12John Coogan?

  Brutal.

• 3:16:13Jordi Hays?

  Well, I got a 90 last night.

• 3:16:15John Coogan?

  Oh, you did?

• 3:16:15Jordi Hays?

  So I'm back in the game.

• 3:16:16John Coogan?

  I, I.

• 3:16:17Jordi Hays?

  Back in the game.

• 3:16:17John Coogan?

  I probably lost my phone. I don't know. This is the, this is an issue.

• 3:16:21Jordi Hays?

  Do we have any more timeline? Meta, Meta is reporting earnings, I believe, right now, or they already did. Meta stock sinks after tax hit weighs on earnings. What?

• 3:16:36Speaker 02

  They're down like 9%.

• 3:16:38John Coogan?

  Wait, what? Wait.

• 3:16:38Jordi Hays?

  Is that good?

• 3:16:40John Coogan?

  Wait, who's down 9%?

• 3:16:42Speaker 02

  Meta.

• 3:16:42John Coogan?

  Meta? Why?

• 3:16:43Speaker 02

  Earnings. Missed earnings.

• 3:16:44John Coogan?

  They missed earnings? Oh, no.

• 3:16:46Jordi Hays?

  Microsoft sinks on beat. Meta crashes 6% on EPS miss. Is it good that Microsoft is sinking on a beat? Is it over?

• 3:16:58John Coogan?

  Is it over? No. It's not over for me. I got a 94. How'd you do?

• 3:17:02Jordi Hays?

  I got a 90.

• 3:17:03John Coogan?

  You got a 90? I beat you. 7 hours, 9 minutes. Let's go. I'm sleeping well and that's all that matters. There's also a bombshell guest essay in the New York Times about OpenAI. One of the senior researchers who led product safety at OpenAI is taking shots at their, at their messaging around erotic content. They have some data around how many people use AI or use ChatGPT in this erotic faction, fashion. That's going to be a bigger, bigger story, for sure. This is definitely going to grow. But. Hopefully there's guardrails. Hopefully there's more clear messaging on, uh, on the, uh,

• 3:17:48John Coogan?

  uh, on the actual transparency reports and, and the, the, the bounding, the boundaries of how these apps get used. I realize that, uh, I don't know if I've actually age verified with OpenAI. Like, I don't know if I've ever actually scanned my ID. And I mean, like, I, maybe this is a bull case for WorldCoin or something, but, uh, I feel like I have a moral duty to upload my ID to ChatGPT.

• 3:18:18Jordi Hays?

  What?

• 3:18:20John Coogan?

  Because, because I care about, I care about-

• 3:18:23Jordi Hays?

  We keep it pretty PG. I don't, I don't want, I don't want them releasing any of those adult features on, on-

• 3:18:29John Coogan?

  On your account. Yes, but, but I want them to be able to clearly understand what, and what, what an adult person is versus a, versus a, uh, an underage person. And so it's important that they have a really strong data set of adults versus people who haven't age verified, so they can classify the users effectively. What do you think, Tyler?

• 3:18:51Speaker 02

  Uh, I actually have, uh, uploaded my ID to OpenAI. There's a bunch of like-

• 3:18:55John Coogan?

  Your real ID?

• 3:18:57Speaker 02

  Yes. Obviously, I don't have any other kinds of-

• 3:19:00John Coogan?

  It was like, uh, ChatGPT operator, agent mode, buy me a beer. Deliver a six pack to me. She's like, yes, Tyler, we're thinking, contacting the Instacart API and buying you a six pack.

• 3:19:18Speaker 02

  Uh, but, okay, there are some products that you have to, uh, use your ID for. At least, um, it's like the early version. So, um-

• 3:19:24John Coogan?

  Really?

• 3:19:24Speaker 02

  Like the agent builder, uh-

• 3:19:26John Coogan?

  Oh, agent builder, you have to, you have to ID verify with?

• 3:19:28Speaker 02

  At least it was in, in the days following, like, right, right when it came out-

• 3:19:31John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 3:19:31Speaker 02

  You upload your ID. Um, I, I think like-

• 3:19:33John Coogan?

  I haven't heard anything about agent builder recently. What's, what's going on over there?

• 3:19:37Speaker 02

  I have not used it either.

• 3:19:39John Coogan?

  You haven't been in building agents?

• 3:19:40Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, it, it's not like a-

• 3:19:42John Coogan?

  We should try. We should try to build a, we should try and build an agent that does something for TVPM.

• 3:19:47Speaker 02

  That buys beer?

• 3:19:49John Coogan?

  That buys beer for interns, yes.

• 3:19:54John Coogan?

  Bobby Cosmic, shout out to John for providing data to improve the system. Thank you. That's what it's all about. Uh, no, but seriously, if you want to keep, if you want to keep uh, the, the bad stuff out of the underage users, uh, you gotta know who's of age and who's underage. And so you should be strongly in favor.

• 3:20:13Jordi Hays?

  People have said you have the mind of a, of a child.

• 3:20:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, Brian Johnson, I, you know, he has, uh, I think his biological age is like 19. Uh, my, I did a test on my brain and said I have the mind of a five-year-old.

• 3:20:27Jordi Hays?

  Lot of dinosaur questions, constantly running deep research reports on.

• 3:20:32John Coogan?

  I love, I do love slapstick comedy. Nothing like a story of a, of a leopard and a monkey falling off a boat and going splat. That's the pinnacle of comedy.

• 3:20:44Jordi Hays?

  Or, or just being, having the mind of a five-year-old and being like, why are clouds?

• 3:20:50John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 3:20:51Jordi Hays?

  And then running a deep research report.

• 3:20:52John Coogan?

  Yes, this is the key.

• 3:20:54Jordi Hays?

  You mean, what are clouds? And you're no, no, why? More news, apparently Mastercard is, is, uh, planning to acquire, uh, Zero Hash for nearly 2 billion. Zero Hash is a crypto infrastructure player. They've been at it, uh, uh, quite a long time. Um, and a pretty serious move from, uh, from them. Uh, we should wait to kind of assess earnings since we can't, uh, listen or read any of the transcripts, uh, live exactly.

• 3:21:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:21:28Jordi Hays?

  Um, but, uh, fortunately we'll be back, uh, tomorrow and, uh, John.

• 3:21:34John Coogan?

  In the meantime, find your happy place. Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel great amenities, dreamy beds, top-tier cleaning and 24/7 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better, folks. Uh, there's a bunch more stories, but we can get to them tomorrow. Um, we will talk to you later.

• 3:21:48Jordi Hays?

  Have a beautiful, productive evening.

• 3:21:51John Coogan?

  Night.

• 3:21:52Jordi Hays?

  See you tomorrow.

• 3:21:53John Coogan?

  Goodbye.

• 3:21:53Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.