Charting The Media Landscape, WSJ Mansion Section, Emily Sundberg LIVE in The Ultradome | Jordan Schneider, Saagar Enjeti, Justine Moore, Glenn Solomon, Dion Harris & More

(00:22) - Sundberg LIVE in The Ultradome
 (04:02) - The Media Landscape
 (21:12) - Mansion Section
 (43:24) - Timeline Reaction (58:59) - Saagar Enjeti, an American journalist and co-host of the podcast and YouTube show "Breaking Points," discusses the societal implications of AI and data center expansion, emphasizing the strain on electricity resources and potential political backlash. He highlights that in states like Virginia, data centers consume a significant portion of power, leading to rising electricity costs and public opposition. Enjeti warns that this trend could escalate into a national issue by 2026, with both left and right political factions uniting against unchecked technological growth. (01:28:21) - Jordan Schneider, host of the ChinaTalk podcast, discusses the escalating trade tensions between the U. S. and China, focusing on rare earth elements and AI technology. He highlights China's strategy to become more self-reliant while increasing global dependence on its resources, and critiques the U. S. administration's inconsistent policies, which he believes may inadvertently benefit China. Schneider also touches on the potential for Chinese humanoid robots to enter the U. S. market, expressing concerns about the lack of American competitors and the need for regulatory measures to address this emerging challenge. (01:53:34) - Chase Lochmiller, CEO and Co-Founder of Crusoe Energy Systems, announced the closing of the company's Series E funding round, valuing Crusoe at $10.4 billion. He described Crusoe as an "AI factory company" that builds infrastructure to produce intelligence, focusing on energy cultivation, data center development, and software platforms to support large-scale AI applications. Lochmiller emphasized the company's commitment to speed, reliability, and cost-effectiveness in delivering AI infrastructure solutions, highlighting the rapid development of their 1.2 gigawatt campus in Abilene, Texas, and plans to integrate small modular reactors (SMRs) to power AI factories by 2027. (02:06:42) - Kathleen McMahon is the co-founder and CEO of Valthos, a next-generation biodefense company focused on building infrastructure for American biodefense. In the conversation, she discusses the increasing asymmetry in biodefense, emphasizing how advancements in AI have made it easier and faster to engineer pathogens compared to developing cures. She also announces that Valthos has raised $30 million in funding, with support from Founders Fund, Lux, and OpenAI's startup fund. (02:16:09) - Dion Harris, Senior Director of HPC, AI, and Cloud Solutions at NVIDIA, discusses the company's role in advancing AI infrastructure, highlighting a projected $3 to $4 trillion investment in AI by 2030. He emphasizes NVIDIA's commitment to enhancing platform efficiency and supporting diverse applications, from chatbots to drug discovery. Harris also notes the company's efforts in redefining data center architecture to meet the growing demands of AI across various industries. (02:27:23) - Burkay Gur, CEO of fal, discusses the inaugural Generative Media Conference held at San Francisco's Ferry Building, emphasizing the event's significance in providing a dedicated space for the burgeoning generative media industry. He highlights the diverse participation, including foundational model labs, media professionals, and notable figures like Jeffrey Katzenberg, reflecting the industry's rapid growth and specialization. Gur also notes Hollywood's increasing experimentation with generative AI, anticipating a shift towards broader adoption in the near future. (02:36:24) - Glenn Solomon, Managing Partner at Notable Capital, a global venture capital firm specializing in software infrastructure, discusses his firm's 25-year history and investments in companies like Vercel and HashiCorp. He reflects on the inaugural Generative Media Conference, noting the enthusiasm among developers and drawing parallels to early HashiCorp events, predicting significant industry growth. Solomon highlights generative media's potential to revolutionize content production across sectors such as advertising, marketing, entertainment, and education, emphasizing its speed, cost-effectiveness, and ability to create new applications beyond traditional media capabilities. (02:40:16) - Diego Rodriguez, co-founder and CTO of Krea, discusses the integration of AI tools in creative workflows, emphasizing the need for seamless collaboration between various technologies to enhance storytelling and creativity. He highlights the blurring lines between professional and consumer tools, noting that users across different levels seek both flexibility and user-friendly interfaces. Rodriguez also shares Krea's growth, reporting over 30 million sign-ups and increasing enterprise adoption, underscoring the platform's impact in the creative industry. (02:47:36) - Justine Moore is a partner at Andreessen Horowitz, focusing on AI investments, including foundation models and applications. In the conversation, she discusses her usage patterns of the Sora app, noting a preference for desktop due to its enhanced control features, and observes that the current content volume may not yet support highly personalized feeds. She also explores the evolving landscape of AI creative tools, suggesting a trend toward both horizontal platforms and vertical-specific applications, and highlights the rapid proliferation of AI-generated content, making it challenging to track emerging trends. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  You're watching TVPN. Today is Friday, October 24, 2025. We are live from the TVPN UltraDome, the Temple of Technology, the Fortress of Finance, the Capitol of Capital.

• 0:11Jordi Hays?

  And we're here with a special guest.

• 0:13John Coogan?

  Friendly to the show.

• 0:14Emily Sundberg?

  Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

• 0:16John Coogan?

  Thanks for stopping by. We wanted to have you on the show for a few reasons. We are going to run through the mansion section and get your opinion on whether these homes are worth passing up or an absolute steal at something like $50 million. So we'll be going through that in a minute.

• 0:33Emily Sundberg?

  Right.

• 0:34John Coogan?

  We also wanted to hear from you what's new in Feed Me World. Do you have any scoops for us? Do you have any breaking news? Do you have any exclusives? We invited you here. We want, we want, we want some news.

• 0:45Emily Sundberg?

  Um, well, I've been in LA for a few days and I got some local LA news from some of my readers because I did a pop up for a few days to sell these new hats, which LA readers got first. Um, some of the people that came by had TVPN merch, which was cool.

• 1:01Jordi Hays?

  There we go.

• 1:02Emily Sundberg?

  They're fans. So it's good to have crossover. Uh, what news do we have? I'm hiring an intern, which you guys are saying not to say.

• 1:09John Coogan?

  Breaking news. Breaking news. You heard it here first. That's why you come to us for scoops like this.

• 1:15Jordi Hays?

  This has never been shared. She did not post about this included in the newsletter.

• 1:19John Coogan?

  It's not breaking news until TVPN covers it.

• 1:22Emily Sundberg?

  That's right. That's right. Um, what else can I say? Feed Me's first podcast is going live in two weeks. We had to push back the, the live date, but.

• 1:31John Coogan?

  And, and wait, run through the thesis of the podcast. I thought it was good.

• 1:34Emily Sundberg?

  Oh, it's, it's like, um, uh, it's a restaurant podcast. It's hosted by my restaurant critic and it'll be fun. Um, we have this idea that there's sort of a white space in kind of, wait, you guys don't curse or you do?

• 1:47John Coogan?

  We don't curse.

• 1:48Jordi Hays?

  But you're welcome to.

• 1:48John Coogan?

  You're welcome to.

• 1:49Jordi Hays?

  If you feel like that is.

• 1:50Emily Sundberg?

  I'm not going to. I'm gonna stick to the rules.

• 1:52John Coogan?

  First person to say a swear word on our show.

• 1:54Emily Sundberg?

  Um, yeah, it's sort of, uh, any, everybody likes restaurants.

• 1:58John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:58Emily Sundberg?

  And anybody can talk about restaurants. So we have some interesting people coming on to talk about restaurants with our restaurant critic, which will be a blast. That'll go live in two weeks. Thanks Substack for supporting that. Um, some other things might come up.

• 2:12John Coogan?

  That'd be fun.

• 2:13Emily Sundberg?

  For the next few minutes.

• 2:14John Coogan?

  Yeah. I, I like that it wasn't just like the Feed Me Show. That was intentional, right? Because that would be the logical thing is just like.

• 2:20Emily Sundberg?

  To do like Emily's show.

• 2:21John Coogan?

  Exactly. Or, I mean, it could.

• 2:23Jordi Hays?

  Feed Me would kind of be a good name for a restaurant.

• 2:27Emily Sundberg?

  I know, I know.

• 2:28John Coogan?

  That is hilarious.

• 2:29Emily Sundberg?

  I was talking to somebody the other day and he was like-

• 2:31John Coogan?

  Would you have a different brand for it?

• 2:32Emily Sundberg?

  It's called Expense Account.

• 2:33John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:34Emily Sundberg?

  Which is the same name as the restaurant column.

• 2:35John Coogan?

  Is Ramp sponsoring it? They need to.

• 2:37Emily Sundberg?

  They should. I'm having some-

• 2:39John Coogan?

  Be there sponsoring us, ramp.com.

• 2:41Jordi Hays?

  Time and money say both.

• 2:42Emily Sundberg?

  We love Ramp.

• 2:43John Coogan?

  They'll pay, counting and a whole lot more, all in one place.

• 2:46Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, they, they should.

• 2:48John Coogan?

  Where is my single, by the way? Is it over here? Where? Oh. Which one am I on? Mine, that's, there we go. Okay, now I found my single. Perfect, thank you.

• 2:56Emily Sundberg?

  Oh, some people read my Substack who watch this, that's so good.

• 2:59John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 3:00Emily Sundberg?

  That's so great.

• 3:01John Coogan?

  Only David Senna can curse on the show. Uh, you're keeping it clean.

• 3:04Jordi Hays?

  That's true.

• 3:04John Coogan?

  Okay, well, we, we, we, we, we are about to understand the landscape of the restaurant world, thanks to your new podcast.

• 3:13Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, it's gonna be great.

• 3:13John Coogan?

  Which is called-

• 3:15Emily Sundberg?

  Expense Account.

• 3:16John Coogan?

  Expense Account.

• 3:17Emily Sundberg?

  Expense Account.

• 3:17John Coogan?

  But, the real reason that we wanted to have you on the show was to help us understand the media landscape.

• 3:23Jordi Hays?

  There's been a lot of debate, right?

• 3:25John Coogan?

  There's been a lot of debate.

• 3:25Jordi Hays?

  There's been a lot of talk.

• 3:26John Coogan?

  There's Paramount Skydance.

• 3:28Jordi Hays?

  You have, uh, you know, the free press starting a conversation. You have, uh, uh, media people like to talk about media. So today, we're gonna talk about media.

• 3:38John Coogan?

  Also, I think people have just simplified things way too much. They try and break it down into a binary. Are you legacy media or new media? Right?

• 3:45Emily Sundberg?

  Right.

• 3:45John Coogan?

  You legacy media or new media? We all know, it's way more complicated than that.

• 3:48Jordi Hays?

  And, and people like to say if you can't explain something in simple terms, you don't understand it.

• 3:53John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 3:54Jordi Hays?

  But, that doesn't apply here.

• 3:55John Coogan?

  Today, we will.

• 3:56Jordi Hays?

  So, we are gonna break it down. We have a market map.

• 3:58John Coogan?

  Market map, yeah, sort of market map. I'm gonna, uh, kind of walk us through a little bit of it, get, uh, feedback from Emily and Jordy and Tyler. And if we get anything wrong, uh, take it up with Tyler, because he's the one that created this.

• 4:11Jordi Hays?

  He made this graphic, so if there are any errors on it, you know where to go.

• 4:16John Coogan?

  So, we have to start with the mainstream media. What is the mainstream media? Arguably, the best-

• 4:20Jordi Hays?

  What is?

• 4:21John Coogan?

  I think it's the best stream. Because if you were to pick a stream to- Do media in, would you want to be in the main one or some alternative one? You want to be in the mainstream, ideally, I think everyone is on the march to become the mainstream media.

• 4:32Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 4:33John Coogan?

  But mainstream media is broken down into several subsections. You have the legacy media and the traditional media.

• 4:40Jordi Hays?

  And why don't you explain the difference? Because a lot of people would say they're the same thing, but...

• 4:45John Coogan?

  A lot of it comes down to the aesthetics. The aesthetics of, you're seeing serif fonts, The New York Times, The Washington Post. When you go over to Fox News, BBC, CNN, you're getting, you're getting something that feels like it is fighting for its life.

• 5:03Emily Sundberg?

  It looks like TV.

• 5:04John Coogan?

  It looks like TV. It looks like TV. I need a little bit more on my, oh, my, my lab is really doing a number. There we go. Okay. Is that better? Can you guys hear me okay? I got really caught up.

• 5:16Jordi Hays?

  This, this is your Sam Hyde bit. Sam Hyde's head talk.

• 5:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:20Jordi Hays?

  You know, you know.

• 5:20John Coogan?

  Okay. So, so, uh, there is a continuum of, uh, there's a gradient that exists between legacy and traditional. Uh, CNBC, right in the middle. You have Forbes, you have the Financial Times, and you can kind of tell that as you get towards Business Insider, CNN, you're more in the legacy world.

• 5:37Jordi Hays?

  You're kind of in the danger zone.

• 5:38John Coogan?

  You're in the danger zone. Uh, David Ellison might be kind of licking his chops.

• 5:43Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 5:43John Coogan?

  Saying, oh, maybe I'll take you over at some point.

• 5:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 5:46John Coogan?

  Uh, David Ellison, he's not going to make a play for The Wall Street Journal, for The Washington Post, for The New York Times.

• 5:52Jordi Hays?

  And part of, part of, part of traditional means that you can actually get it via newspaper, right?

• 5:57John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, that is key.

• 5:59Jordi Hays?

  So... That's a factor.

• 6:00John Coogan?

  A lot of people will, will put the split divide of like, your new media if you have a blog.

• 6:04Emily Sundberg?

  Right.

• 6:04John Coogan?

  Or your legacy media if you print it out. Um, but we forget that there is a whole host of, of mainstream media outlets that do not print out their work.

• 6:16John Coogan?

  They do not ship a newspaper. And so, most of the newspapers, you'll see the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the New York Times, those are in the traditional media.

• 6:24Jordi Hays?

  Economists.

• 6:24John Coogan?

  Yes, the economists, another one, Atlantic, yes. Uh, so, this is really the heart and soul, the beating, the beating pulse of the mainstream media, but you also have offshoots from each of these areas. So you have the post-trad.

• 6:36Jordi Hays?

  Let's talk about post-trad and why I see this little number right here, Bloomberg.

• 6:41John Coogan?

  Bloomberg is moving over into post-trad media, obviously, that's on the back of Tracy Alloway, just, uh, Joe Weisenthal with the Odd Lots Podcast. You can think of that as the classic post-trad media.

• 6:52Emily Sundberg?

  And Tracy.

• 6:53John Coogan?

  What?

• 6:53Emily Sundberg?

  And Tracy.

• 6:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, I said Tracy.

• 6:54Emily Sundberg?

  Oh, you did?

• 6:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, Tracy Alloway and Joe Weisenthal at the Odd Lots, at the Odd Lots Podcast are a great example of post-trad media where they, they come from traditional media, but they have been so early to the podcasting game. They're, what, a decade in? Isn't it a decade?

• 7:10Jordi Hays?

  I think so.

• 7:11Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 7:11John Coogan?

  They're a decade into that, uh, and so they jumped on podcast early.

• 7:15Jordi Hays?

  Bloomberg was really an experiment, you know, from Michael Bloomberg to, to, what if I could just be the news? What if I could create the news?

• 7:21John Coogan?

  Yes, and so.

• 7:22Jordi Hays?

  Maybe some frustrations with traditional media and, you know, saying, why not me?

• 7:26John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, and so you can see him like, he's slightly less traditional than the New York Times, but, uh, but still, you know.

• 7:33Jordi Hays?

  Kind of in that, squarely in that post-trad region.

• 7:37John Coogan?

  We also have, uh, proto-media. I'm not exactly sure why Dig and Hacker News wound up there. Uh, more just like early online efforts that weren't really trying to play in, these weren't, these weren't trying to be traditional media corporations, media organizations. They weren't telling a story about being new media in any way. Uh, they were sort of the proto.

• 7:57Jordi Hays?

  But you could almost put Reddit here, we're missing Reddit in some ways, but Reddit was trying to be the front page of the internet to kind of curate stories.

• 8:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, you could probably go all the way up here and add social media and TikTok and stuff, but we want to stay on the media outlets, the folks who. Who really proclaim that they are the media, right? And so, over here, we have the post legacy media. And this is a crew of former legacy media folks who have now ventured out into Substack and YouTube.

• 8:27Jordi Hays?

  Substack and Substack.

• 8:28Emily Sundberg?

  Would you argue that a few years ago, Barry, like, the Free Press would have been there, too?

• 8:32John Coogan?

  Post legacy?

• 8:33Emily Sundberg?

  And they sort of moved?

• 8:34Jordi Hays?

  Well, I think Barry's way down, if I remember correctly, she's in more of the legacy new media. So she was new media.

• 8:41John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 8:42Jordi Hays?

  But now she's in the legacy new media bucket.

• 8:44John Coogan?

  So, so you're, so if you're, what are these guys? Post legacy? So, so post legacy is where you were up until recently, like, in the 2020s.

• 8:55Jordi Hays?

  A part of the legacy or traditional media.

• 8:56John Coogan?

  If you worked for the legacy media in the 2020s, like Alex Heath at Verge, which isn't exactly legacy media, but at Forbes.

• 9:05Jordi Hays?

  But it's legacy new media.

• 9:06John Coogan?

  And obviously Bloomberg with Ashley Vance. If you were working with the legacy media, you didn't jump ship in the 90s. You didn't jump ship in the 2000s. You didn't jump ship in the 2010s. You rode it all out.

• 9:18Jordi Hays?

  The mid 2020s.

• 9:19John Coogan?

  And then the mid 2020s, you were like, okay, this legacy media thing isn't working for me anymore. I gotta go out and do my own thing.

• 9:25Jordi Hays?

  That's where we get Ashley Vance and Bloomberg here, so this is kind of crossover.

• 9:29John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. But the Free Press, the Free Press, Barry left the New York Times famously, you know, crazy dust up. And that was in the pre-post legacy media era.

• 9:40Emily Sundberg?

  Right before, right before that started, yeah.

• 9:42John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 9:43Jordi Hays?

  So she used to be in the new media bucket.

• 9:45John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 9:45Jordi Hays?

  But current, now she sits in the legacy new media.

• 9:48John Coogan?

  And that's because there's a whole new wave of new media.

• 9:50Emily Sundberg?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:51John Coogan?

  And so Andreessen Horowitz is, is leading the charge here. They have a team that is just called new media, which of course asks the question, what were they doing before?

• 9:59Jordi Hays?

  Which was their marketing team.

• 10:01John Coogan?

  Yes, so they were doing media. It's not like they just started doing media. No, they just started doing new media. Their old media is now known as legacy new media. And so legacy new media also includes the information, BuzzFeed, Wired, Vice, organizations that came out and said, "We are going to be doing the new media thing." But they said that a decade ago, and so now it's a little bit legacy. Then you also have, of course, alt-media. Vice kind of bridges these two gaps. You have the trappings of a new media organization, but with a little sharper edge. Over here, you get into the darker media.

• 10:35Jordi Hays?

  Dark media zone.

• 10:36John Coogan?

  You get the Sam Hyde, the Curtis Yarvins, the passage press, of course. We still haven't figured out where Feed Me goes.

• 10:44Jordi Hays?

  We'll do that at the end.

• 10:46John Coogan?

  We'll have to do this at the end, but we can move over to

• 10:48Jordi Hays?

  Neo-Alt.

• 10:49John Coogan?

  Neo-Alt media.

• 10:50Jordi Hays?

  You have the Adam Friedlands.

• 10:51John Coogan?

  Yes. So you still have some of the edginess, some of the rebel spirit of your Vice magazines, your Red Scares, but obviously newer products, newer media products launched more recently. Then you also have New Media with the NU. That, of course, is media that covers nu metal. So, anyone who's, if you're writing a blog about Limp Bizkit, or POD, or Slipknot.

• 11:14Jordi Hays?

  That obviously goes in the new media category.

• 11:17John Coogan?

  So if you were to build, kind of like, the free press for corn fans, you would go in New Media, NU, not N-E-W media.

• 11:26Jordi Hays?

  And, of course, we have to talk about the post-corporate media

• 11:29John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 11:30Jordi Hays?

  category. Chapo Trap House, obviously fitting in there.

• 11:32John Coogan?

  It's a very funny choice to put that there, but, obviously, anti-corporate, sometimes socialist, sometimes communist, sometimes left-wing, but distinctly anti-corporate. You're not going to run a lot of ads on a post-corporate media property.

• 11:49Jordi Hays?

  But you might curse some people. You might hire some people on a

• 11:53Emily Sundberg?

  Which is, yeah.

• 11:54John Coogan?

  That's possible. Now, we do have the post-neo media. So, as you think, you think traditional media, legacy media, regular media, nu media, neo-media is the newest.

• 12:07Jordi Hays?

  Neo-trad, which we'll get to in a little.

• 12:09John Coogan?

  Post-neo media, you can think of it as the most accelerated, the most aggressive, the final, the most cutting-edge media properties that are out there. We have Martin Scrawley, he just turns on a livestream, it doesn't

• 12:21Jordi Hays?

  He goes for hours and hours and hours and hours.

• 12:23John Coogan?

  It's not a media company, it's not a TV show.

• 12:26Jordi Hays?

  And he's moving, he's moving markets, right?

• 12:28John Coogan?

  Exactly. Exactly. Then you have I Show Speed, Mr. Beast, other examples of neo, post-neo media creators. You, of course, have had the expert media sphere with Andrew Huberman, Lex Friedman, Joe Rogan.

• 12:40Jordi Hays?

  AI expert, Joe Rogan, UFO expert.

• 12:42John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 12:43Jordi Hays?

  And then Andrew Huberman, of course.

• 12:44John Coogan?

  And then we have the neofactual media, more of the analysts focused on the actual truth, one of the, really the only truth-seeking organizations on the map in general. Where are we?

• 12:58Jordi Hays?

  Let's move over. Let's zoom out.

• 13:00John Coogan?

  To, so traditional media, we know, traditional media, you're printing things out, you're making traditional content, you're instantiating your ideas in traditional ways. And the neotrad's are doing this in a new way.

• 13:12Jordi Hays?

  So this is new media that cosplays as traditional media.

• 13:17John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 13:18Jordi Hays?

  So that's TVPN, right? It has some of the aesthetics of an ESPN.

• 13:21John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 13:22Jordi Hays?

  But it looks and feels.

• 13:23Emily Sundberg?

  Good job, guys.

• 13:24John Coogan?

  Thank you.

• 13:25Jordi Hays?

  Thank you to the production team. I'm glad you guys like the show.

• 13:29John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 13:30Jordi Hays?

  And so Colossus is another good example here. They're obviously neo, you know, if you look on this map, what is Colossus? There was debate last week, right? This is part of what started the debate. What is Colossus? Are they writing profiles? You know, is this journalism? And we just immediately thought this is obviously, you know, neotrad media, there's no other way to look at it. This is traditional print media reborn for the modern era.

• 13:53John Coogan?

  Yes. And specifically, you wind up getting a lot of attention in neotrad media from the old media, from the mainstream media, from the legacy media, because you are wearing traditional media clothing. So Arena Magazine.

• 14:10Jordi Hays?

  Kind of sitting squarely between post-trad and neotrad.

• 14:14John Coogan?

  And so if you are the editor of Forbes or Fortune Magazine, Fortune Magazine has done a cover story on Josh Kushner. Colossus Magazine just did a cover story on Josh Kushner. And they printed it out, and it's a physical magazine, and so it feels much more like a direct attack and a comparable product, as opposed to if Colossus was just a Substack. The editor of Forbes, the editor of Fortune, they would be able to say, well, that's just a Substack. What makes us special is we print ours out and mail it.

• 14:49Jordi Hays?

  Would you ever do a daily print newspaper?

• 14:51Emily Sundberg?

  Daily print? I don't think so, but I would do, I would do weekly. Daily print, it's, there's so many hands involved and like material.

• 14:59Jordi Hays?

  I know, but if you just, you offense it to New York, Manhattan, you could have little people in Feed Me outfits.

• 15:05Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, or I guess the other thing people do, I don't know if you guys remember this paper during COVID called The Drunken Canal, which was like a downtown gossip paper that they put in the newspaper stand boxes around the city. But that was maybe four times a year or something. But that was really fun because you couldn't really find the content online. It created some tension around discovery.

• 15:25Jordi Hays?

  What were they gonna publish?

• 15:25Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 15:27John Coogan?

  So then we have neo corporate media. These are like obviously from a corporation that does something that's not media. You have the AWS Developer Tools blog. Let's give it up for them. Some of the greatest content. You have the OpenAI podcast, Cheeky Pint, which sort of dresses up as neotrad in many ways, but also is fully owned and operated by Stripe, a corporation. Then you have the neo conglomerate media. This is whatever David Ellison is working on, we believe.

• 15:55Jordi Hays?

  David and Larry.

• 15:56John Coogan?

  But I want you to take me through.

• 15:58Jordi Hays?

  We forgot, we could have added UFC as part of this new neo conglomerate.

• 16:02Emily Sundberg?

  You can update it. You can always update it.

• 16:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the East Coast Underground. You'll have to explain everything in this section.

• 16:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, we weren't familiar with this. What's going on?

• 16:11Emily Sundberg?

  You guys know New York Magazine, come on.

• 16:12Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, from the Andrew Hyerman hit piece.

• 16:15John Coogan?

  Is that, is that the New Yorker magazine?

• 16:17Emily Sundberg?

  No.

• 16:17John Coogan?

  Is that the New York Times magazine?

• 16:19Emily Sundberg?

  No.

• 16:20John Coogan?

  Is that the New York, New Yorkers, New York magazine?

• 16:23Emily Sundberg?

  New Yorker is part of Fontaineaste.

• 16:25John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 16:26Emily Sundberg?

  New York Times Magazine is part of?

• 16:28John Coogan?

  The New York Times.

• 16:29Emily Sundberg?

  Correct. And New York Magazine is something else.

• 16:32John Coogan?

  Who's it owned by?

• 16:32Jordi Hays?

  And it's, is it supported by like the city?

• 16:34Emily Sundberg?

  It's under, it's under Vox.

• 16:36John Coogan?

  Wait, they should nationalize it. M'Gani, let's do it.

• 16:39Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, I mean, that's a big one. You guys should probably know about that one.

• 16:42John Coogan?

  I feel like, I feel like I love New York Magazine because to come out of the magazine, the New York Times already has a magazine, and the New Yorker has a magazine, and you're just like, you know what? New York needed a magazine. That's something that we would say.

• 16:53Emily Sundberg?

  It's the best one. It's the one where I worked.

• 16:55John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 16:55Emily Sundberg?

  Um.

• 16:56John Coogan?

  It does seem cool. And I feel like, uh, when you hit, see a New Yorker, a New York mag profile, it is great.

• 17:00Emily Sundberg?

  Oh, my God, it's great.

• 17:02John Coogan?

  Yeah. They have their own special flavor that's not quite the New Yorker, it's not quite the New York Times Magazine.

• 17:07Emily Sundberg?

  Right. It's the New York, it's New York Magazine.

• 17:09John Coogan?

  It's New York Mag, NY Mag. Um, okay, so why are, why, why are these so underground?

• 17:14Emily Sundberg?

  You guys have never heard, okay, you've heard of Puck because you've been on Dylan's podcast.

• 17:17Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 17:17John Coogan?

  But Tyler, our intern, has not heard of Puck. And he's heard of all of these other outlets.

• 17:23Emily Sundberg?

  You haven't heard of, Hellgate, you wouldn't know about. That's more of like a New York left-leaning politics.

• 17:29John Coogan?

  Tyler, do you know Semaphore?

• 17:29Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 17:30John Coogan?

  Okay. Do you know Status?

• 17:32Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 17:33Emily Sundberg?

  Status was started by Oliver Darcy, so I, and he came from CNN, I believe. So like, we should move him maybe over there. But something that's interesting that's happening is some people are logos and some people are faces.

• 17:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:44Emily Sundberg?

  Like, you guys chose to put TBP on as your logo.

• 17:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:48Emily Sundberg?

  And I'm, I'm curious, I'm happy that Feed Me is not my face and it's my logo.

• 17:52John Coogan?

  You want the brand to, to, to grow.

• 17:54Jordi Hays?

  But Feed Me is starting to become more of a platform.

• 17:56John Coogan?

  Platform company.

• 17:57Emily Sundberg?

  Bingo.

• 17:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Emily Sundberg?

  Thank God.

• 18:00Jordi Hays?

  We, we, we left off Punch Bowl. Punch Bowl should be on.

• 18:04Emily Sundberg?

  Oh, Punch Bowl, yeah. I mean, they're ex-politico, right?

• 18:07John Coogan?

  Okay, so I, what, what I'm actually hearing is that East Coast Underground is really sort of a further post-trad, post-legacy. Maybe they're po, uh, post-legacy.

• 18:17Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, I think a lot of them are post-legacy. I think the difference between them and like an Alex is a lot of them have raised like tens of millions of dollars to get their things off the ground. But their newsletter businesses.

• 18:28John Coogan?

  But so they're thinking less independent, maybe.

• 18:30Jordi Hays?

  We needed a category for heavily VC-backed newsletters.

• 18:33Emily Sundberg?

  You really do. You really do. Because we're gonna be watching how those play out in the next few years or months.

• 18:38John Coogan?

  Yes. Well, are there any, are there any major, major corrections that you think we should make? Do you think we got any of this wildly wrong?

• 18:45Emily Sundberg?

  Uh, um, no. I, I mean, it's really interesting that you guys, the East Coast Underground thing, because those are the publications that people are like. wringing their hands, is that like going crazy over in New York City?

• 19:01John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 19:02Emily Sundberg?

  And maybe your audience is...

• 19:04John Coogan?

  I definitely think these folks need to be over here.

• 19:07Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, I think we can redistribute the underground.

• 19:09John Coogan?

  Yes. Because you can basically see it goes like...

• 19:12Emily Sundberg?

  I mean, New York Magazine's not underground, but...

• 19:14John Coogan?

  There's like less tech, more tech here. And then, politics is kind of running through this way, but then, over here you have some tech, and then over here you have some tech.

• 19:23Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, those can be sort of redistributed.

• 19:25John Coogan?

  Next to each other.

• 19:26Emily Sundberg?

  Status I would call post legacy, but...

• 19:28John Coogan?

  Okay. But it's almost like, there's some difference because these were started five, 10 years ago, correct? Like Puck is not this year. Puck didn't start this year, right?

• 19:39Emily Sundberg?

  Puck started, I think, like three years ago.

• 19:42John Coogan?

  Oh, three years ago. Okay, that is pretty recent.

• 19:44Emily Sundberg?

  And they raised like 20 million.

• 19:46John Coogan?

  It's not quite as recent as the...

• 19:47Emily Sundberg?

  And they also just acquired Airmail, which is Grayden Carter's sort of luxury magazine.

• 19:50Jordi Hays?

  Can you hit the gong for Puck for raising 20 million?

• 19:58Emily Sundberg?

  But, but the big story with Puck right now is that they just acquired Airmail.

• 20:04John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 20:05Emily Sundberg?

  Um...

• 20:05Jordi Hays?

  What's Airmail?

• 20:06John Coogan?

  Who's that?

• 20:07Emily Sundberg?

  Grayden Carter, the great editor of Vanity Fair.

• 20:10John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 20:11Jordi Hays?

  There we go. So he's more...

• 20:12Emily Sundberg?

  You know about that?

• 20:13Jordi Hays?

  Was Airmail in the post legacy media?

• 20:16Emily Sundberg?

  Airmail is something else. I mean, it still is. It's still in existence, but it's sort of like, you go, it's very luxury. So it's like, this is what happened in this, um, resort in Sweden. Uh, this is like the crazy, like, thousand-word story about it, and every, you know, sort of 20 words, there's a big Hermes ad. So it's like...

• 20:39Jordi Hays?

  Amazing.

• 20:40Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah. But it's...

• 20:41Jordi Hays?

  Let's give it up for Hermes. Uh, Zach Meyer in the chat says, "I think this needs to be three-dimensional to better illustrate their...

• 20:49Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 20:50John Coogan?

  I agree, I agree. Okay, well, that concludes-

• 20:53Jordi Hays?

  Well, I'm glad we could clear up the media landscape because there's been so much debate lately and sometimes you need to, you know, expand in order to really help.

• 21:02John Coogan?

  We were joking about this being completely schizo, but I think we have something-

• 21:05Emily Sundberg?

  We didn't have Barstool.

• 21:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, we gotta add Barstool. Okay, let's make some notes. We'll do a V2 before we release the next the next iteration, but we'll get something there. Uh, let's go through the mansion section. I want some uh, advice on what is a buy, what is a sell. Before we do, let me tell you about Restream.com. One livestream, thirty plus, thirty plus destinations, multi-stream, they reach your audience wherever they are. Well, uh, you said, you said that you were interested to talk about Carl Icahn's, uh, NYC penthouse, is that correct? Are you familiar with this?

• 21:36Emily Sundberg?

  You know about the Carl Icahn pasta at the restaurant? I think it's like two blocks from his house.

• 21:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Emily Sundberg?

  There's this restaurant called, um, I think it's called Il Tinnello. It's an Italian restaurant and they have like a twenty dollar Carl Icahn pasta. I looked this up recently.

• 21:49Jordi Hays?

  Only twenty?

• 21:50Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, because it's not exciting. It's like, it's like a very simple pasta, but he ordered it a lot.

• 21:57Jordi Hays?

  That's, that's cool.

• 21:58Emily Sundberg?

  So I think one of the things, if you buy there, you can sort of like always take friends to that place and sort of get into, well, you know, who used to own my apartment?

• 22:07John Coogan?

  Who?

• 22:07Emily Sundberg?

  Carl Icahn. Like, you can do that every time.

• 22:09John Coogan?

  Oh, oh, if you live there, yeah.

• 22:11Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, that's, you know, neighborhood. You can have maybe rename the pasta if you learn, if you move there, you know?

• 22:18John Coogan?

  Icahn has also entertained numerous corporate giants at the apartment, including computer titan Michael Dell, Apple CEO Tim Cook, Netflix co-founder Reed Hastings. He would extend. He, uh, it is, he, he was hanging out with Dell. It was pretty fun. Uh, it's twenty-three million dollar property. Uh, let me see.

• 22:36Jordi Hays?

  How many square feet?

• 22:39Emily Sundberg?

  People are liking the lifestyle news. You guys should talk about restaurants more.

• 22:43John Coogan?

  We should. Um, the apartment has views around the city, including Central Park, dramatic double-height foyer, has a circle staircase, uh, twenty-three, two-hundred-and-fifty units. I'm not, I'm not sure how big this is. Oh, okay. It is fourteen thousand square feet. It's a combination. Why is that? Why is that sad? That's huge for Manhattan. That's massive. Fourteen thousand square feet is the combination of three apartments that were purchased over forty years. And so he slowly built this like larger and larger.

• 23:13Emily Sundberg?

  Is it fifty-sixth or fifty-third?

• 23:15John Coogan?

  Does that make a difference?

• 23:17Emily Sundberg?

  Well.

• 23:17John Coogan?

  Is that material? Like, would you know Manhattan that well to know?

• 23:20Jordi Hays?

  I would hope so. I would hope you know it that well.

• 23:23Emily Sundberg?

  I, I know it that well.

• 23:25John Coogan?

  I, I don't know the difference. Uh, so it is on, uh, the apartment atop Museum Tower on Manhattan's West 53rd Street. Spans the 51st and 52nd floors. It has 14,000.

• 23:36Emily Sundberg?

  That's a buy.

• 23:37John Coogan?

  You think that's a buy?

• 23:38Jordi Hays?

  It's a buy. I got a buy rating.

• 23:40John Coogan?

  So, so Carl Icahn has said, Carl Icahn has said, uh, the billionaire is unsure why his beautiful apartment on West 53rd Street hasn't found a buyer yet. You think you agree with that take? It, it doesn't make sense. Somebody needs to step up.

• 23:55Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah. Somebody will step up after this story, you know?

• 23:58John Coogan?

  Okay, so you could get one 53rd Street, 14,000 square foot apartment, or you could get.

• 24:05Emily Sundberg?

  They say in the story.

• 24:06Jordi Hays?

  I mean, so here, here's the thing. So, he had a Hindenburg research report.

• 24:10John Coogan?

  On him?

• 24:11Jordi Hays?

  On, on, on his empire, on his empire. And so I think, and Puck has an article here. I just searched Carl Icahn fall off.

• 24:19Emily Sundberg?

  This is.

• 24:20Jordi Hays?

  And Puck pulls up Carl Icahn on how to lose 20 billion. So I think people don't want to buy the apartment because

• 24:26John Coogan?

  Oh, bad luck.

• 24:26Jordi Hays?

  They're worried about negative aura.

• 24:28Emily Sundberg?

  But you call a priest, you call, you get some sage, you just.

• 24:32Jordi Hays?

  Sage it up.

• 24:33John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 24:33Emily Sundberg?

  That's every apartment in New York.

• 24:34John Coogan?

  So for 23 million, it's, it's fixable. You can make it work. Okay. What about this Delmar Beach House? For $50 million. This one was actually sold. Uh, I can hold it up here. Uh, a beachfront compound with a ping pong pavilion. Are you pro ping pong?

• 24:50Emily Sundberg?

  Um, sure, yeah.

• 24:52John Coogan?

  Rank these.

• 24:53Jordi Hays?

  Kind of fell off.

• 24:53John Coogan?

  Rank these paddle sports. Ping pong, padel, uh, what's the other one called?

• 24:59Emily Sundberg?

  I don't like sports that were invented in the last 10 years.

• 25:01John Coogan?

  Pickleball and then tennis. So, so rank those four. Tennis is the top.

• 25:04Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 25:05John Coogan?

  And then ping pong?

• 25:06Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 25:06John Coogan?

  And then?

• 25:07Jordi Hays?

  Padel.

• 25:07John Coogan?

  Padel?

• 25:08Emily Sundberg?

  And what's the other one?

• 25:09John Coogan?

  And then pickleball's at the bottom.

• 25:10Emily Sundberg?

  Yes.

• 25:11John Coogan?

  Pickleball, it just has a terrible name.

• 25:13Emily Sundberg?

  I know.

• 25:13John Coogan?

  The word doesn't sound good. Oh, here's the picture of the house. So 50 million. It has 6,000 square feet, seven bedrooms. How would you rank this? I will keep, I will keep giving you extra information.

• 25:25Jordi Hays?

  Basically, Delmar.

• 25:26John Coogan?

  Delmar is in San Diego.

• 25:27Jordi Hays?

  County. It is.

• 25:28Emily Sundberg?

  That's really not my kind of place, but.

• 25:30John Coogan?

  No?

• 25:30Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah. What's pulling people to live there?

• 25:31John Coogan?

  It's kind of the Hamptons of Los Angeles.

• 25:33Jordi Hays?

  It's kind of a brutal view.

• 25:34Emily Sundberg?

  Don't say that.

• 25:35Jordi Hays?

  It's kind of a brutal, look how brutal.

• 25:36John Coogan?

  It's like a better Hamptons.

• 25:37Emily Sundberg?

  Don't say that.

• 25:38John Coogan?

  Like if someone was like from first principles, let's just make the Hamptons better, they would come up with Del Mar.

• 25:43Emily Sundberg?

  Hmm.

• 25:43Jordi Hays?

  But look how brutal the view is from the pool.

• 25:45Emily Sundberg?

  I don't think this was the best photo they could have ran.

• 25:48John Coogan?

  You can see the beach.

• 25:49Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, oh yeah, I can see the beach behind the staircase and like through this little sliver.

• 25:54John Coogan?

  Oh, so, so, so are you an infinity pool guy? You want the, you want the pool straight out to the ocean? Okay, okay. Uh, well, uh, the seller is a limited liability company tied to Sandra Nafsker, whose family has been major cattle ranchers over a century in Arizona, California and Oregon. Land, land family. Land maxing.

• 26:15Jordi Hays?

  Land is the most underrated asset.

• 26:18John Coogan?

  Uh, completed last year, the oceanfront compound first came on the market for 75 million.

• 26:24John Coogan?

  Uh, but the price has been reduced. It finally sold for fi- 50 million.

• 26:29John Coogan?

  Uh, listing agent said it's remarkable sale for San Diego coastal real estate agent.

• 26:33Emily Sundberg?

  This is not my kind of.

• 26:34John Coogan?

  The property includes a 4,500 square foot main house.

• 26:36Jordi Hays?

  You, somebody would have to pay you quite a lot to live there.

• 26:39John Coogan?

  It is crazy to get.

• 26:40Emily Sundberg?

  That's not my kind of beach and that's not my kind of house.

• 26:42John Coogan?

  It's crazy to get, to get half the space and you're in Del Mar, which is cool, but you're not in Manhattan. You would think that Manhattan would just be more expensive and you're paying twice as much for half the space.

• 26:52Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 26:53John Coogan?

  I say take Icons property. That makes no sense to me.

• 26:56Jordi Hays?

  What else?

• 26:56John Coogan?

  What about Hawaii? What, what's your take on Hawaii?

• 26:59Emily Sundberg?

  Been once.

• 27:00John Coogan?

  It's the, it's the Hamptons of the Pacific. Do you agree?

• 27:04Emily Sundberg?

  The only thing I'm curious about with Hawaii is I really wanna visit a Zuck's Ranch and meet those cows.

• 27:10John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 27:11Jordi Hays?

  Meet those cows.

• 27:12John Coogan?

  You wanna meet those cows specifically?

• 27:14Emily Sundberg?

  Yes.

• 27:14John Coogan?

  You don't just wanna see how big the property is, the cow specifically?

• 27:17Emily Sundberg?

  I'm curious about what he's sort of doing there with the, he's obsessed with like breeding the perfect cow.

• 27:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:22Jordi Hays?

  We missed, we, they had Zuck burgers at the Meta Connect event that we were live from and we missed.

• 27:28Emily Sundberg?

  You didn't have one?

• 27:29Jordi Hays?

  We, we, we, we just got really busy podcast.

• 27:31John Coogan?

  It's basically impossible to eat while you're streaming because you have to eat talk on the microphone.

• 27:35Emily Sundberg?

  None of them could have put one aside.

• 27:37Jordi Hays?

  You guys have any?

• 27:38John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, no, no one had any.

• 27:40Jordi Hays?

  Wow, missed opportunity.

• 27:41John Coogan?

  Missed opportunity. So Catherine Conrad spent a decade perfecting the gardens at her Honolulu home. Overlooking the ocean, the estate has granite pathways that wind around a Carrera Marble Fountain. I don't know what that is, actually. An antique pergola cost about $40,000. Her favorite view of the garden is at night when the cypress monkey pod and flowering Tacoma trees are illuminated.

• 28:07Jordi Hays?

  She's trying to pitch the monkey pod as a feature, but it sounds like a bug.

• 28:11Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 28:12John Coogan?

  You have a monkey pod. I guess that's like, it's like a cat tree for a monkey.

• 28:16Emily Sundberg?

  People visit you in Hawaii, too. Like, you have to.

• 28:18Jordi Hays?

  The time, the time zone is so brutal.

• 28:20Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah. Or you have neighbors you love, maybe, or you meet new friends. But if you're, if you're buying in California or New York, someone's always gonna be in town.

• 28:27John Coogan?

  Totally, totally.

• 28:29Jordi Hays?

  I also feel like as for the celebrities out there, it really puts a target on your back when anytime there's, every time there's been like a natural disaster, it's like, oh, the, you know, the rock didn't let.

• 28:39Emily Sundberg?

  It's because you took all our water.

• 28:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:40Jordi Hays?

  Well, well, that, but there was the tsunami warning last year and they were getting really canceled for that and then.

• 28:45Emily Sundberg?

  Canceled for the tsunami?

• 28:46Jordi Hays?

  And then the fire, well, no, no, because apparently they had like private roads that every, you know, everyday citizens were backed up in traffic trying to escape the tsunami and they, they were not inclined to open their private roads.

• 28:59Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, it's always gonna be more controversial to buy in Hawaii.

• 29:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 29:01John Coogan?

  Okay, so 0.8 of an acre. Uh, it was, the first lot was bought for 7.55 million, then 4 million for the adjacent parcel. So you put two, two properties together, around 11 million in land value. Then 12 million in renovation. They're asking 34, uh, it's a four bedroom, 5,200 square foot house, ocean views. It also has a Pilates studio. Is that a feature for you?

• 29:31Emily Sundberg?

  I like to leave my house for Pilates.

• 29:32John Coogan?

  You want to leave your house for Pilates? So at 34 million, are you buying or are you selling?

• 29:36Emily Sundberg?

  No.

• 29:37John Coogan?

  You're not buying. You're passing.

• 29:39Emily Sundberg?

  Passing.

• 29:40John Coogan?

  What about this house in, uh, Puerto Rico? I haven't been to Puerto Rico in a very long time. Um, before we move on, we gotta do another ad. Do you have the ads list? I don't have it today. Let me pull it up. Here we go.

• 29:56John Coogan?

  Uh, sorry. Privy, wallet infrastructure for every bank.

• 29:59Jordi Hays?

  There we go.

• 29:59John Coogan?

  Privy helps it, helps, uh, makes it easy to build on crypto rails, securely spin up white label wallets,

• 30:04Jordi Hays?

  And the crowd goes wild.

• 30:05John Coogan?

  and integrate on-chain infrastructure, all through one simple API.

• 30:08Jordi Hays?

  So, yes, Puerto Rico was very much a thing during 2020, 2021.

• 30:16John Coogan?

  Whoa, that is crazy.

• 30:16Emily Sundberg?

  See, there, invite, they're saying, "Come hang out."

• 30:19John Coogan?

  I have a friend who, yes, yes, they want people to come visit. I have a friend who would refer to that as a Gulag.

• 30:24Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 30:25John Coogan?

  Because you, you get all your boys to come and visit and hang out, and they all sleep in bunk beds.

• 30:30Emily Sundberg?

  Sure.

• 30:30John Coogan?

  But you really could sleep like, what, 12 people there or something? So this, this mansion has, uh,

• 30:35Jordi Hays?

  Is this in the?

• 30:36John Coogan?

  17,000 square feet, eight bedrooms, a basketball court, a pool. Um, it is, uh, for sale for $65 million.

• 30:43Jordi Hays?

  Is it in that zone? I think, I don't know if it's the Four Seasons, or there's another, uh, there's another hotel company that has effectively set up a mini-city in Puerto Rico? You know about this?

• 30:54John Coogan?

  Uh, there is information about the Ritz-Carlton in here.

• 30:58Jordi Hays?

  Oh, it's the Ritz?

• 30:58John Coogan?

  Let me read it. Uh, Simon said he and his wife had little intention to buy in Puerto Rico before stopping by the Ritz-Carlton's sales office in 2015. They quickly became enamored with the idea of building a house there, buying a one-acre parcel of land on one of the community's golf courses. The parcel overlooks the ocean. It was completely impulsive. Uh, there were few false starts. The Phallics got the keys to the new home in 2017, just before Hurricane Maria hit, closing down the resort community and resulting in minor damage, water damage to the home. Uh, soon after the community recovered, COVID hit. Uh, in recent years, the Phallics have spent long weekends and holidays at the property, as well as several weeks in the summer. They are selling because their grandchildren are older

• 31:41John Coogan?

  and don't spend as much time on the property. Puerto Rico's luxury housing market has boomed in recent years, thanks to tax incentives and the rise of remote work. It's become very attractive.

• 31:52Jordi Hays?

  They undid a lot of those incentives, or they, they, you, there's some people that are grandfathered in, but now they're just sort of trapped in, in the Caribbean.

• 32:00John Coogan?

  Yeah. And so this is, uh, a lot in the Dorado Beach,

• 32:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Dorado.

• 32:06John Coogan?

  which is, which is a Ritz-Carlton Reserve Resort. $65 million, buy or pass?

• 32:10Emily Sundberg?

  Um, pass, but maybe try to get, I don't know if those Disney posters are coming with the house, but I feel like the posters in the film room, you could flip those.

• 32:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, split them off.

• 32:23Emily Sundberg?

  Or something, you know?

• 32:24Jordi Hays?

  Break it up.

• 32:24Emily Sundberg?

  The little, the little.

• 32:25Jordi Hays?

  Break up big Puerto Rico. Sell it for parts. We gotta get, we gotta talk about JP Morgan's new headquarters.

• 32:31John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 32:32Jordi Hays?

  Michael Dell shared it. I have a post pulled up here.

• 32:34John Coogan?

  Oh, yes, this is deep performance.

• 32:35Jordi Hays?

  And I wanted to get your reaction to this, uh, this setup. Can we pull up this post in the timeline?

• 32:42John Coogan?

  It'd be great to be able to pull a post both in timeline and there. That's the future.

• 32:46Jordi Hays?

  Well, that's what, can we not pull it up there?

• 32:48John Coogan?

  While we're pulling that up, let me tell you about cognition. They're the makers of Devon. Devon is the AI software engineer. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team.

• 32:56Jordi Hays?

  All right, pull up this post from liquidity.

• 33:00John Coogan?

  And we'll put it on there. We don't need to put it on the, on the back screen. We can actually just pull it on the, uh.

• 33:06Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 33:07John Coogan?

  Yep. And while we're doing that, let me tell you about figma.com. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. You can get started for free.

• 33:20John Coogan?

  Did you see the, what else is going on here?

• 33:25Emily Sundberg?

  Would you guys buy anywhere besides California?

• 33:28John Coogan?

  No.

• 33:29Jordi Hays?

  New York eventually.

• 33:31John Coogan?

  California has so much. I feel like I just want to like grow the map of places I go that are driving distance.

• 33:37Jordi Hays?

  We're both, we're both excited about.

• 33:39John Coogan?

  Santa Barbara.

• 33:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the Montecito to LA or Malibu to LA.

• 33:43John Coogan?

  Marin is a little far, but even Big Bear.

• 33:45Emily Sundberg?

  So you just want to buy houses close to each other.

• 33:48Jordi Hays?

  Houses that are less than an hour away from each other.

• 33:51John Coogan?

  In, in, in California, in LA specifically.

• 33:54Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 33:54John Coogan?

  You can get in a car and in two hours be in a completely different biome.

• 33:57Emily Sundberg?

  Right.

• 33:58John Coogan?

  You can be in the desert or you can be in the ocean.

• 34:00Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 34:00John Coogan?

  Or you can be on an island.

• 34:01Jordi Hays?

  So here's, they got video footage of the JPM analysts going to their new workstation. Uh, this is a post from liquidity, but pull, pull up the post from Michael Dell that shows the actual setup here. And we need to rate my, rate my office.

• 34:16Emily Sundberg?

  Did you guys hear that employees have to pay for the gym?

• 34:19John Coogan?

  What?

• 34:20Jordi Hays?

  At JPM.

• 34:21John Coogan?

  Why?

• 34:22Emily Sundberg?

  There was a story about it.

• 34:23John Coogan?

  I mean, I guess that's just.

• 34:24Jordi Hays?

  Does that inspire them to?

• 34:25Emily Sundberg?

  People were not hap- I mean, employees were not happy about it. They were like, why do we have to pay to go to this?

• 34:30John Coogan?

  I guess it's just such a big organization that if you don't put some sort of limit, people will like kind of all flood right on January 1st or something.

• 34:38Emily Sundberg?

  And I'm sure that they have.

• 34:40John Coogan?

  It's just kind of like a.

• 34:40Emily Sundberg?

  I'm sure that they have like a, a health account or something towards it.

• 34:45John Coogan?

  Yeah. Um, so this is what peak performance looks like for sure. This is beautiful.

• 34:51Jordi Hays?

  Actually, I saw this setup and I was, and I thought, I want to recreate this here.

• 34:56John Coogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 34:57Jordi Hays?

  I'm, I'm down to be in the trenches.

• 34:59John Coogan?

  Yes, th- this is what the trenches look like.

• 35:02Emily Sundberg?

  I like that they have the thing that new hotels have now where you just, you have the outlets right there.

• 35:06John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:07Emily Sundberg?

  And the desks. That's nice. We're not seeing chairs.

• 35:10Jordi Hays?

  Imagine having chat GPT add up numbers for you while sitting in that setup.

• 35:15John Coogan?

  So what I'm interested is like, when was this taken? Because I thought they worked.

• 35:20Emily Sundberg?

  I don't think that's a real photo. That doesn't really look like a real person.

• 35:23Jordi Hays?

  Michael Dell just posted this and said, congratulations JP Morgan on opening your new headquarters.

• 35:28John Coogan?

  He sold them all the monitors because the monitors are Dell monitors.

• 35:31Emily Sundberg?

  I think this is a rendering.

• 35:33Jordi Hays?

  No way. This is real.

• 35:34John Coogan?

  I think this is real.

• 35:35Jordi Hays?

  You don't think that jawline is possible? That's, that's pure.

• 35:38Emily Sundberg?

  It's possible. I don't know. I don't know. I have to see it for myself. I emailed their team.

• 35:43Jordi Hays?

  Even Michael Dell replied to his own post and said, we are monitoring the situation.

• 35:48John Coogan?

  Yeah, you don't do that on some slop. I think they finished building out the office.

• 35:52Emily Sundberg?

  The office looks like slop.

• 35:57Jordi Hays?

  Look at those beautiful Dell monitors.

• 35:58John Coogan?

  I will fight you on this. This is.

• 36:01Emily Sundberg?

  I want to go. Maybe that's where my shoot is.

• 36:03John Coogan?

  That is where you're shooting. This is the spot. Uh, we, we were hopscaping and jumping. People that will actually.

• 36:09Emily Sundberg?

  I, I need to go. I need to see, I need to see it for myself.

• 36:12John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 36:14Emily Sundberg?

  Okay.

• 36:15Jordi Hays?

  Okay, last thing.

• 36:16Emily Sundberg?

  Have you seen it?

• 36:17Jordi Hays?

  Last thing we have to.

• 36:18John Coogan?

  No.

• 36:19Emily Sundberg?

  It's beautiful.

• 36:19John Coogan?

  Oh, it's a whole new building and, and it has like crazy LED at the top, right? It was a crazy light show. It's cool.

• 36:25Emily Sundberg?

  There's like, uh, rock. There's like a big story about like the rocks that they brought into.

• 36:31John Coogan?

  Dwayne The Rock Johnson? You should bring him in, have him do it. I feel like when you, when you set up a new, a new fortress of finance, you should have like an inaugural, an inaugural lock-in. And you should bring in like a, like Warren Buffett should come and like lock in and, and type the first row in a spreadsheet. And be like, yes, like we've opened the office. Jamie Dion himself has come and, and done, and written the first cell of the spreadsheet. And now the office is open for business. It's like, it's like smashing a bottle of wine across a boat.

• 37:04Jordi Hays?

  I like that.

• 37:05John Coogan?

  You know, you need to christen a new office.

• 37:07Jordi Hays?

  Let's pull up this post from none other than the New York Post, which I don't think they made it on the media landscape, but mobsters ran rigged poker games at Kylie Jenner's luxe NYC pad while she still owned it. Apparently Travis Scott also was, was on the, owned, owned a piece of it too.

• 37:30Jordi Hays?

  What's going on here? You, you think this all ties back into the, to the whole?

• 37:35Emily Sundberg?

  Isn't this part of the story that came out yesterday about?

• 37:38John Coogan?

  I just got an email from you 19 minutes ago. You're sitting right here.

• 37:41Emily Sundberg?

  It's crazy, right?

• 37:42John Coogan?

  It's crazy.

• 37:43Emily Sundberg?

  Um, isn't this part of the story with the NBA gambling? Like the, there?

• 37:47John Coogan?

  I haven't been following this too closely.

• 37:49Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, the, the headline yesterday on the Times about the NBA coach gambling, there was, in the headline, it also mentioned mafia. So unless there's two mafia poker rings going on, which is totally possible in a city like New York. Um, I think they're connected. And I, I wrote about it yesterday and one of my readers emailed me. I'm not going to say who it was. But he was like, if you want to talk about this, I was there. Or the game was held at gunpoint.

• 38:16John Coogan?

  What?

• 38:16Emily Sundberg?

  If you want to talk about it. And I said, sure. And he said, be the neighbor that you live in.

• 38:19John Coogan?

  What is game held at gunpoint? Like someone's forcing you to play poker?

• 38:23Emily Sundberg?

  Well, you guys don't play poker. Sometimes that happens.

• 38:26John Coogan?

  What do you mean that happens?

• 38:27Emily Sundberg?

  Guns, drugs.

• 38:28John Coogan?

  But, but, but in what scenario?

• 38:30Emily Sundberg?

  Mafia.

• 38:31John Coogan?

  But, but, but, under, under what conditions am I like, I'm really enjoying playing poker with you? So you will die if you don't continue playing? They're just having so much fun?

• 38:40Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, you do a little, you have a little too much fun and somebody like pulls something out that they're not supposed to pull out and

• 38:46John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:46Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah. I've never had a gun at a poker game, but I've heard-

• 38:49John Coogan?

  This is why I'm not leaving California. This, this New Yorker here seems crazy to me.

• 38:54Emily Sundberg?

  There's none of this here, yeah.

• 38:55John Coogan?

  This is, this is not-

• 38:56Jordi Hays?

  There's a post here on the, on the sports gambling arrests. Mike over on X with 2 million views on this post. The NBA is very concerned about the multiple arrests made as a result of the FBI's sports gambling raid. Use code, code MULTIPLE ARRESTS for a 30% profit boost on a three-leg parlay with DraftKings, the official gambling partner of the NBA.

• 39:17John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 39:17Emily Sundberg?

  I am glad that people are still playing poker in person as opposed to just only playing online. That's good.

• 39:23John Coogan?

  That's kind of a white pill, for sure. Um, touching grass.

• 39:27Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, touching chips. I used to have a poker podcast.

• 39:30John Coogan?

  Really?

• 39:30Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah, it was called Chips and Dip and it's about poker and chips, like potato chips.

• 39:34John Coogan?

  Potato chips?

• 39:35Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 39:35John Coogan?

  Were you, were you like a good poker player?

• 39:37Emily Sundberg?

  I am, I was, uh, my ex was like a good poker player and then our friend, the third guy is also very good and he's borderline addict.

• 39:45John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 39:46Jordi Hays?

  He was gambling addict. Cool.

• 39:48John Coogan?

  Good luck to him.

• 39:49Emily Sundberg?

  He's doing okay. He might start writing about poker.

• 39:51John Coogan?

  He should go work in a hedge fund or something.

• 39:53Emily Sundberg?

  Yeah.

• 39:53John Coogan?

  Put it to work.

• 39:55Emily Sundberg?

  For sure.

• 39:55John Coogan?

  Uh, he should go lock in. He should, he should do the inaugural gamble. The first gamble at the new, at the new Morgan Stanley HQ. It's Morgan Stanley, right?

• 40:05Jordi Hays?

  No, it's JPM.

• 40:06John Coogan?

  Oh, it's JPM. Okay, JPM. Yes, yes, yes. The, the first, the first fat fingered trade. Uh, this is important. Anyway, thank you so much for stopping by.

• 40:14Emily Sundberg?

  Thanks for having us, guys. A blast.

• 40:17John Coogan?

  We know we have to get, you, you have to get out of here.

• 40:19Emily Sundberg?

  Really fun. Gotta go to the Hammer Museum.

• 40:21John Coogan?

  Breaking. She will be-

• 40:23Jordi Hays?

  The Hammer Museum. I didn't know that was a real place.

• 40:25John Coogan?

  You can go by and, and say, oh, you play a-

• 40:27Emily Sundberg?

  Don't say that.

• 40:27John Coogan?

  Be careful.

• 40:28Emily Sundberg?

  Okay. Bye, guys.

• 40:30John Coogan?

  Bye.

• 40:30Jordi Hays?

  Great hanging. Cheers.

• 40:35John Coogan?

  Well, we rearranged the seats. Let me tell you about vanta.com. Automate compliance, manage risk, prove trust continuously. Vanta's trust management platform takes the security and compliance process, manual work out of your security and compliance process, and replaces it with continuous automation.

• 40:49Jordi Hays?

  Alex Heath says Snap is in talks to raise at least $1 billion for AR Glasses. Multiple investors involved, including Saudi Arabia's Sovereign Wealth Fund. Plan is to move specs into a new independent subsidiary.

• 41:05John Coogan?

  Spinning it out.

• 41:06Jordi Hays?

  And structure similarly to Waymo and Alphabet.

• 41:09John Coogan?

  I want to get Evan on the show so badly. I think it would be a very, very fascinating conversation.

• 41:14Jordi Hays?

  We're working on it. It will happen soon.

• 41:16John Coogan?

  Who, Samsung just launched a Vision Pro competitor, right? Samsung Galaxy XR, the headset. So they're, and Google's announcing it today. This is 16 minutes ago. The Samsung Galaxy XR is powered by Android XR, and it's supposed to be basically at the Apple Vision Pro level in terms of fidelity, I think. But they obviously have a YouTube app because it's, you know, a Google partnership. And so you, on day one, they have a lot more partners because Android's been kind of a

• 41:59John Coogan?

  better steward to the developer community than Apple. And I think a lot of, a lot of the, a lot of the obvious developer partners that would go and build apps for the Apple Vision Pro are taking a wait-and-see approach.

• 42:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 42:14John Coogan?

  Because they don't want to, they want to have more leverage over Apple instead of just showing up and being like, okay, I'm going to be paying the Apple tax on, on day one. They're saying, hey, like... Why don't you go get the audience first, Apple? Make sure that there's actually 100 million DAUs of this thing, like the iPhone, before I build an app for this.

• 42:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Speaking of smart devices, Kohler, the toilet manufacturer, is making a new toilet camera that provides health insights based on your bathroom breaks, which is insane because

• 42:48John Coogan?

  That's insane.

• 42:48Jordi Hays?

  Throne, you know, the startup Throne.

• 42:50John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:50Jordi Hays?

  Doing this. I really thought nobody would

• 42:53John Coogan?

  Touch it?

• 42:54Jordi Hays?

  Do, no, nobody would go and, I, I thought it was like an insane idea.

• 42:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:58Jordi Hays?

  But at least no one else would go and compete. And then Kohler, you know, obviously a, a, a major manufacturer decided, uh, I'm, I'm sure they were somewhat inspired by Throne.

• 43:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:10Jordi Hays?

  Uh, to go get into the game of, uh, uh, toilet cameras, health tracking. So we'll see how this plays out.

• 43:18John Coogan?

  That's very funny. Uh, let me tell you about graphite.dev, code review for the age of AI. Graphite helps teams like GitHub ship higher quality software faster and get started for free.

• 43:27Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Gabriel is posting, uh,

• 43:30John Coogan?

  This is a wild one.

• 43:31Jordi Hays?

  There was an article, uh, from the Times that said female spies are waging sex warfare to steal Silicon Valley secrets.

• 43:38John Coogan?

  This is, this is a funny story from the Times. Is this, is this the Times of India? I, I think it's the Times of India, but, um, the, this has been the meme of like the, the CCP spy girlfriend.

• 43:50Jordi Hays?

  And it, and, and we, we sort of, the Times of London, okay. So we, we had a whole, there are a lot of different Timeses.

• 43:57John Coogan?

  There are a whole bunch of different, uh, like iterations of that, of that viral concept of like, is, is the girlfriend a spy? And then the backlash to like, well, you shouldn't judge the girlfriend because she might be a spy. And going back and forth, back and forth on that. Uh, so it's interesting that the Times of London. Is this just something where Europe takes two months to get to the current thing on X? Because this, this is a, this is an article that literally just says what X was talking about four months ago, right?

• 44:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think there's, I mean, this

• 44:30John Coogan?

  Or is there new information?

• 44:32Jordi Hays?

  This has been an ongoing thing. I think maybe what they've discovered and, you know, we're not factual media, so we don't need to get into kind of the truth here, but they're saying some of these spies are even marrying and having children with their targets, which is really

• 44:50John Coogan?

  You know what a good, have you seen The Americans? That's a great movie, a great TV show. The Americans is great.

• 44:56Jordi Hays?

  Atlas says, geez, I would sure hate for a beautiful Chinese spy to wage sex warfare against me for my production secrets. My production secrets are super important. I would hate for this to happen.

• 45:07John Coogan?

  Did he go mega viral for this? Yeah, 15,000 likes.

• 45:10Jordi Hays?

  15,000 likes. He got the Elon response.

• 45:12John Coogan?

  That's great.

• 45:13Jordi Hays?

  Neer has been going on a tear highlighting Andreessen-backed companies. And there's definitely some that are

• 45:22John Coogan?

  Specifically Speedrun, right?

• 45:23Jordi Hays?

  These are A16Z Speedrun companies, which is under Andrew Chen.

• 45:27John Coogan?

  And it's more of a, it's more of an incubator or accelerator?

• 45:30Jordi Hays?

  It's an accelerator.

• 45:30John Coogan?

  It doesn't have the same weight as like a David George came in with the growth team and like actually like did some analysis. It's like ripping checks.

• 45:37Jordi Hays?

  But it's out, you know, it's out of their, their speedrun run by Andrew Chen.

• 45:41John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 45:42Jordi Hays?

  And yeah, so this one is Cheddar. It's the TikTok of sports wagering.

• 45:47John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 45:48Jordi Hays?

  Unlike other platforms, they allow players under 21 and in 46 age.

• 45:51John Coogan?

  Is this, is this from a deck or from their website or something?

• 45:56Jordi Hays?

  I think this, this is from the Speedrun.

• 45:58John Coogan?

  How did Neer find this?

• 45:59Jordi Hays?

  I think this is from the Speedrun website.

• 46:02John Coogan?

  This is ridiculous. Okay, wait, there's another one. I need to talk about double speed. I need you to explain this to me. The founders in the chat going back and forth in the replies. So Neer says, A16Z-backed double speed lets you control thousands of social media accounts with AI, ensuring they look as human as possible. Quote, "Never pay a human again. Control is all you need." I can imagine some Oh, I mean, I was I was about to steal this, but it's really hard. I like I can imagine that puppeteering a thousand devices might be useful for something or other in like a data generation.

• 46:42Jordi Hays?

  Double speed. I think they're trying to position it as this is an alternative to influencer marketing, but it does look and feel more like an influence operation. So I would be.

• 46:54John Coogan?

  This just feels very sloppy and it feels very.

• 46:57Jordi Hays?

  Nation states typically take this kind of thing on where they build, you know, a phone farm.

• 47:03John Coogan?

  This feels like bot farming. It feels like very much against the T the terms and conditions.

• 47:07Jordi Hays?

  The other one that was wild.

• 47:09John Coogan?

  Hold on, but like near went through this whole flow where where near is is is just quoting them, which is interesting because near is not really dunking here. Like near is just saying A16Z back double speed lets you control thousands of social media accounts with AI. It's basically just the same as what's on their website copy. The one of the founders or the employees automating attention at double speed, Zuhair Lakani chimes in and says, let me know when you sign up. We can help you grow your company, Orin. And near says it wants me, it wants to charge me 5K before I try it, it seems. Zuhair says, sorry, we don't do free trials. Let me know if you have budget to allocate and we'll get you on boarded.

• 47:49John Coogan?

  Uh, Day says you can do 2000. Uh, Zuhair says, yes, join our Discord. Um, but the founder, I believe, is this, is this, is this? This is a founder of Speedrun Cohort 5. I don't know if it's the founder. Besard Copa says, uh, um. So people are calling this like morally lame and impoverished and Besard Copa says, how so? There are already a million bot farms around the worlds. They wreaked havoc on our elections not so long ago. Shouldn't the best ones be built in America? And pioneer the latest tech and rules to govern it?

• 48:26Jordi Hays?

  Wait, so he's saying they have wreaked havoc on the world, but so we should build it in America?

• 48:31John Coogan?

  Yes, yes. It's basically like, oh yeah, you know how

• 48:33Jordi Hays?

  I would like this.

• 48:34John Coogan?

  This is bad, like we should make it in America.

• 48:35Jordi Hays?

  I think DoubleSpeed should pivot to being a defense tech company and just work with our government to run foreign operations.

• 48:43John Coogan?

  Yes, yeah, this is good.

• 48:44Jordi Hays?

  America has such a long history of running, you know, various influence operations in, in, in far off regions of the world that

• 48:51John Coogan?

  Spam from first principles.

• 48:53Jordi Hays?

  Here's, here's another one. Uh, Edgar is bringing real money engagement into free to play sweepstakes. America's number one social casino for slot lovers.

• 49:03John Coogan?

  These are insane.

• 49:05Jordi Hays?

  I can't believe this is real. I had to go check the speed.

• 49:07John Coogan?

  It is wild comparing these to, uh, the, the Nat Friedman cohort that he did, which Julius was a part of, Julius.ai. What analysis do you want to run? Chat with your data and get expert level insights?

• 49:21John Coogan?

  What was that?

• 49:21Jordi Hays?

  There's, so, so the last one we had to cover is covered, which is bet on your bills. OnlyFans, this is so dark, I can't even.

• 49:32John Coogan?

  What is that?

• 49:32Jordi Hays?

  Bet on your bills with covered. OnlyFans, child support and last night's Uber. Wipe them from your credit card by playing your favorite casino games, all from the comfort of our app. No VPN, no crypto deposits. And so my only, my, my reaction here, I mean, John, you're going to be impressed by this. There's six million views on this post and only 292 likes.

• 49:58John Coogan?

  So bad. That, it means that someone like nuclear ratioed them.

• 50:05Jordi Hays?

  But I, I mean, such an insane missed opportunity to say bet on your debt, right? Like they say bet on your bills.

• 50:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Jordi Hays?

  Like bet on your own debt.

• 50:15John Coogan?

  Well, it's not debt.

• 50:16Jordi Hays?

  This is potentially the most American.

• 50:18John Coogan?

  Because you've already paid it. Or maybe you're in debt.

• 50:22Jordi Hays?

  No, but you're you can wipe them if you if you bet right, you get them wiped from your statement.

• 50:27John Coogan?

  So bad. It's so funny that just a just a quote tweet that's from from hero thousand faces that just says societal breakdown gets more likes with 30,000 views. Like, the like ratio is insane on this.

• 50:42Jordi Hays?

  Trey says, this is incredible. Double your bills or nothing.

• 50:46John Coogan?

  What's funny is like, there was a guy who was a really cool, like, kind of funny designer who was designing stuff like this, little modals. And one of them was Apple Pay with a double or nothing button. And people were like, oh, that's really funny. But like, to see it actually productized is like, oh, like, we were joking about that.

• 51:04Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the interesting thing is, you know, a lot of these kinds of ideas, kinds of apps, end up being massive businesses. But you don't typically see, you know, venture funds backing them. They typically.

• 51:18John Coogan?

  Well.

• 51:18Jordi Hays?

  But this is one of the challenges. This is one of the challenges of scaling a venture platform, right? It's like, you know, there's tons of partners at Andreessen that probably would have passed on these deals. But, you know, individual partners have autonomy and they can do what they want.

• 51:35John Coogan?

  Well, stick to the infrastructure, baby. Go to TurboPuffer. Search every byte. Serverless vector and full text search. Built from first principles on object storage, fast, 10x cheaper, extremely scalable.

• 51:49Jordi Hays?

  Did you see this? A gummy bear basil says a gummy bear company casually dropping revolutionary battery technology for $25 on Amazon, the lightest ever of this capacity, and pretending nothing happened is one of the funniest things of all time. This is a rebo.

• 52:07John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Jordi Hays?

  I don't actually think this is a rebo. I think this is a.

• 52:11John Coogan?

  Someone stealing the heribo brand?

• 52:13Jordi Hays?

  Well, they may hopefully is.

• 52:14John Coogan?

  The gummy bear company. So yeah, people are immediately wondering like, is this real? Uh, is this actually the best? Power storage per dollar possible or per weight? And so Michael went ahead and bought one. And here's his findings. He says it's weight is 286 grams, just a little bit over what they claim. The capacity is 83 watt hours. The printed printed on the battery, it says capacity 20,000 milliamp hours. Um, or 77 watt hours. So I'm measuring in excess of what's what is claimed. I think they're stating, uh, the voltage piece is what makes the battery capacity. And measurements nebulous, but watt hours don't have that issue. And I'm getting better than claimed.

• 52:59John Coogan?

  Minimum charging current of of point five of an amp, less than this battery pack turns itself off. Not able to recharge the battery via the built in cable. That's weird. So overall, my conclusion is this battery is the real deal. It meets the claimed capacity and pretty much hits the weight spec. Wow. So maybe you gotta go pick them up. Very, very funny.

• 53:18Jordi Hays?

  Uh, Oracle just secured a $38 billion debt deal to finance two new data centers. They said they couldn't let them anymore. They shouldn't, but they are not listening. 23 billion will go toward a Texas site and nearly 15 billion towards one in Wisconsin. Ted Jang says, here we go. The debt finance deals are coming.

• 53:39John Coogan?

  We got Chase Lochmiller from Crusoe coming on the show in about an hour to break down his series E.

• 53:44Jordi Hays?

  The star, the the godfather of Stargate.

• 53:47John Coogan?

  Yes, Star Lord.

• 53:48Jordi Hays?

  The Star Lord.

• 53:49John Coogan?

  Himself.

• 53:50Jordi Hays?

  Citrini put this out a bit ago, according to Ted. Something that has been a relative comfort in being able to stay long despite calls for an AI bubble so far has been the fact that most of the capex has come from cash, cash flow. You don't have a bubble really until the majority of the expansion is done on debt. We have yet to see significant financing, but that absolutely should be something to watch. On one hand, that leaves another leg of the trade. Leveraging up still results in more money being spent. On the other, it sets the stage for consequences of not realizing ROI that we haven't really had to contend with in the existing paradigm. With Microsoft 10-year bonds trading at a G spread of three basis points, there's still a lot of room for the hyperscalers to issue debt or tap private credit to fund

• 54:31Jordi Hays?

  continued spending on AI. However, this also induces a lot more fragility going forward. Monitoring the share of AI capex that is financed rather than funded from cash flow is probably the most important aspect of determining exactly where we are in the cycle. Again, there's been a number of players using debt, XAI has been using debt. Metas already tapped the debt markets. I feel like Satya just generally is a lot less inclined to lean in, lever up too much. But there's a post here from Junk Bond Investor. Says, "Just offloaded some data center construction debt to his school teacher's

• 55:11Jordi Hays?

  401K. My father is a retired school teacher, so hopefully..."

• 55:19John Coogan?

  He didn't get burned here?

• 55:20Jordi Hays?

  He's gonna be a little frustrated with me if that ends up being the case, but I'm sure that's happening. With Nexperia, there's been a little chaos on that front. Nexperia, the semiconductor company out of the Netherlands, they notified its Japanese automotive customers that it may no longer be able to guarantee supply, triggering renewed concern about upheaval at the chipmaker. So some chaos over on the European front.

• 55:54John Coogan?

  Before we do the next post, let me tell you about Google AI Studio, the fastest way from prompt production with Gemini. Chat models, vibe code, monitor usage. Do you think everyone's talking about the AI bubble? They never talk about the podcasting bubble. Maybe we should be getting some more attention. Everyone's saying like, "Wow, TVPN is feed me. These businesses, if they don't work out, if they don't deliver, the entire global economy will collapse."

• 56:19Jordi Hays?

  Well, no, and a more serious note, we did hear of a podcast raising at a half a billion dollar valuation that is burning money, so.

• 56:30Jordi Hays?

  That could, that could be a sign.

• 56:32John Coogan?

  There might be.

• 56:33Jordi Hays?

  Paki has a post here, "Never Change Masa, this guy rocks." And it's a post that says, "Softbank Hunts For Humanoid Robot Startups." Softbank's Masa Yoshi-san has long predicted a future where robots would outnumber people and take over many jobs from humans. But some of Softbank's bets in robotics over the past 10 years, such as robot company Pepper, have not panned out. Now the company is renewing its robot ambitions, particularly in robots that resemble humans.

• 57:01John Coogan?

  Can you imagine Brad Adcock reading this? He's gotta be just like, "Oh, let's go." Like, "I wanna be the one."

• 57:11Jordi Hays?

  Softbank up 172% year-to-date.

• 57:14John Coogan?

  Does it feel like actually a bad time to invest in humanoid robots? I don't think it feels like a bad time at all.

• 57:19Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think it's probably true that Masa and Softbank were too early in some of their robotics bets, right? They bet really heavily, you know, a decade ago.

• 57:30John Coogan?

  This feels like a great time to be building in humanoid robots, or robots generally. There's a ton of, there's a ton of interesting startups. OneX, and there's smaller companies, and there's supply chain stuff. And it's like, it's one of those things where it's like, are you more worried about being too early or being too late? Probably too early on the, on the humanoid robot side. Because they're, they're not quite, you know, getting deployed profitably. They're very much like research tools. They get bought by researchers, you know, one-off stunts here and there. There isn't really, there's no customer that's just like, "Oh yeah, they're buying these like every month."

• 58:13John Coogan?

  They're buying more and more and more because like, they're actually, you know, seeing increasing returns to scale.

• 58:18Jordi Hays?

  There was that story last week about...

• 58:23Jordi Hays?

  Tesla buying actuators from Chinese firm, right?

• 58:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:27Jordi Hays?

  It was like a $675 million order, which to me signaled that's the kind of move you make if you're actually trying to get things into production like in real time.

• 58:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:36Jordi Hays?

  Um, or at least have product that people can order.

• 58:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:39Jordi Hays?

  My, my theory was that if they felt like they had more time, they might've done them themselves.

• 58:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 58:45Jordi Hays?

  Right?

• 58:46John Coogan?

  Well, our first guest of the show is in the restream waiting room. Let me tell you about profound. Get your brand mentioned in chat GPT, reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands.

• 58:56Jordi Hays?

  Be like MongoDB, Indeed, DocuSign, Ram.

• 58:59John Coogan?

  Yeah. We have Saagar and Jenny from Breaking Points. Saagar, how are you?

• 59:04Saagar Enjeti?

  Oh, it's great to see you guys. Thank you for having me.

• 59:06John Coogan?

  Great to see you.

• 59:07Jordi Hays?

  Finally.

• 59:08John Coogan?

  Only after a million text messages every morning back and forth on the AI apocalypse and political crises, have we actually just put it together that we should just hang out on the stream. I really appreciate you taking the time.

• 59:20Saagar Enjeti?

  Oh, thank you, thank you.

• 59:22John Coogan?

  Uh, give everyone like a quick shape of, of the actual flow of the content, like, uh, uh, like the, the, the proper funnel of your business.

• 59:30Jordi Hays?

  Saagar some credit. He kind of created Neo Trad Media.

• 59:34John Coogan?

  That's true.

• 59:35Jordi Hays?

  Which is a new, which is a new framework we're working on, which is new media that, that sort of embodies or kind of looks and feels like.

• 59:42John Coogan?

  Yes. So your show looks like a proper TV show. You wear a suit. And, and so we call that Neo traditionalist media, Neo Trad Media. And we're firmly trying to do that.

• 59:51Saagar Enjeti?

  I love it. And I, and I will say, one of the only reasons I am here is because both of you are bringing suits back to the bums of Silicon Valley. And I know many of you are watching, uh, right now in your Lululemon or Viori and you don't look cool. You don't look better than John or Jordy or myself. You all are billionaires. Buy a suit. Stop, just stop it.

• 1:00:12John Coogan?

  Stop it. That's great. I, I, I couldn't agree more. Uh, I think we're starting to have a small, a small effect, but it's, but it's taking hold.

• 1:00:20Jordi Hays?

  A lot of, a lot of people that visit the Ultra Dome wear suits.

• 1:00:22John Coogan?

  Well, uh, I mean, pretty, pretty much like there are going to be tons of, of AI folks, tons of tech people who are going to be dragged in front of Congress over this data center build out. I, I think you've clocked this correctly. Uh, but walk me through, is this a thesis that came from you see this coming or you're seeing, uh, smoke signals already? Walk me through your thesis of like how tech and the AI build out runs on a collision course with the average American.

• 1:00:51Saagar Enjeti?

  Yeah, the thing is, guys, and I really want to hammer this home for people who are watching because I, you know, shocker, I think many people in Silicon Valley do live in a bubble. One of the best parts of my job is I do genuinely is I interact and we'll return to bubble conversation, by the way. But what I get to do is not only interact with a lot of people who are normal in politics, and I mean that at the very base level, not people who live in Northern Virginia. The vast majority of my audience don't live in Washington DC. Many are Uber drivers, hotel clerks, etc. And I start to see bubbling stuff over the last five years over cost of living. At the same time, I'm tracking the electricity story and it doesn't take a genius to pair that with data center build out.

• 1:01:34Saagar Enjeti?

  So, one of the things that I really want to flag, I think, here on the show is that the coming data center collision, at the heart of that is about electricity. It doesn't have to be this way. One of my favorite notes is there's an analyst I follow who was in China. He had a very different view of this in China, even though, of course, you know, they don't have democratic politics, but of course they do have some liberal democratic input, is they said, "Nobody's concerned here because electricity is considered a solved problem." We don't have a solved problem of electricity here in the United States. And in fact, worse, you know, our grid is aging and actually things are getting worse. So with all of this capital expenditure in data centers, you are seeing a literal finite resource competition, especially in rural areas.

• 1:02:17Saagar Enjeti?

  So, Virginia, the state where I live, 40% of all of our power is consumed by data centers. Oregon, for example, is some 33%. To be fair to many of the AI people who are watching, it's not all AI. We are the hotbed, right, of servers and Amazon and much of the federal government. But the point is, is that this is bubbling up at a very organic township level. So, from Arizona to Virginia, data centers actually had a mention in our more recent gubernatorial debate. Both the Republican and the Democratic candidate said that they wanted to do something about it. There's Prince William County here in Virginia, where this is an active, live issue and the public is overwhelmingly against it. The city of Tucson is moving.

• 1:02:59Saagar Enjeti?

  And so, if we see this continued capital expenditure go up, and especially in more rural areas, we see headlines like 267% power increases for power bills in rural areas, which are built near data centers, not to mention environmental concerns, etc. That's when you're going to see people start to get dragged before Congress.

• 1:03:18Jordi Hays?

  So, so.

• 1:03:19Saagar Enjeti?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:03:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I'm just curious what, uh, obviously every area, you know, people are not going to just watch a data center get built, you know, in their backyard and not, you know, talk to their mayor, talk to the governor and actually start a conversation and a debate and ultimately create policy around this. Is there not some type of solution that would allow, effectively allow data centers to pay a higher rate than everyday citizens and kind of make up the, the difference?

• 1:03:49Saagar Enjeti?

  I think it's a great idea. Unfortunately, that's not how our power system works. The foundation of the United States is basically built on the fact that we're going to build this grid, this infrastructure, and we can all kind of consume the social benefits of it. There are pieces of legislation, Jordy, of what you're talking about on the table, I think in Oregon and a few other states, but these are few and far between. I also think we got to take everybody through the story of the last 25 years. Again, with great respect to the audience I'm speaking to, you can't be Amazon and be the second largest employer in the United States and then in your shareholder meeting come out and say that we want to fire 600,000 people, or at the very least, not hire 600,000, fewer people. These are people who watch their towns get decimated, then they watch Amazon, I mean,

• 1:04:34Saagar Enjeti?

  Nomadland, it's an Oscar-winning film about this, you know, this, this.

• 1:04:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think, I think what's, what's, what's challenging, what's, what's so challenging about this issue is that you have these massive infrastructure projects with massive spend and almost zero job creation.

• 1:04:52Saagar Enjeti?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:04:53Jordi Hays?

  Like, like the plumbers and the electricians are gonna, are gonna get paid and that's great, but we've even heard stories of the plumbers and electricians being flown around on private jets because their skillset is so.

• 1:05:03Saagar Enjeti?

  I've heard the same.

• 1:05:05Jordi Hays?

  And so that's not going to get people, but yes, if you, if you're, you know, living in a, in a little town and you're watching, you know, the, the mega, mega project gets spun up and you're getting not, not only, you know, no real benefit, you know, maybe, Maybe you get more slop in your trough every day. Yeah. But it's not.

• 1:05:24John Coogan?

  Can you maybe take me?

• 1:05:25Saagar Enjeti?

  That's the point.

• 1:05:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Saagar Enjeti?

  Go ahead.

• 1:05:27John Coogan?

  Can you maybe take me a click forward into, uh, let's assume the trend lines kind of continue. Electricity prices go up, there's more, it's, it's more clearly attributable to data centers, et cetera, et cetera. Like, how do the different political coalitions, uh, frame, reframe themselves around this issue? Like, I imagine that there's a right wing version of tech backlash that looks one way. There's the abundance lib, uh, direction. There's going to be the, the actual socialist left and maybe they just say like, no AI at all.

• 1:05:59Saagar Enjeti?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:00John Coogan?

  Uh, right. Uh, so like, how do you see the different coalitions like grappling with what the, the V2 of the messaging might be here?

• 1:06:08Saagar Enjeti?

  There's going to be a horseshoe element here. I think that the socialist left and much of the right is going to actually come in the same place of enough. And so a lot of the socialist, uh, left is actually Bernie Sanders. I don't know if you guys saw this right before I came on the show, just called for a breakup of OpenAI. So this is huge news. He's the first US politician actually to do so.

• 1:06:26Jordi Hays?

  What would they, what is there to break up? They have chat GPT and then they have a bunch of other things that are subscale.

• 1:06:32Saagar Enjeti?

  How about the nonprofit profit arm or whatever the hell you guys can explain that to me?

• 1:06:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. I think Sam's like, I would love to break it up. I'm actually trying to break it up. I would love to just have a C corp for guys.

• 1:06:42Jordi Hays?

  Break me up Bernie.

• 1:06:43John Coogan?

  Yeah. Is this some sort of like 4D chess and Sam's gotten to Bernie and told Bernie, hey, yeah, we, we, we need to break it up. That's really popular messaging. And he's like, yeah.

• 1:06:53Saagar Enjeti?

  You know, Bernie's probably, you know, he's picking from an old toolbox. So we shouldn't fault him too much.

• 1:06:57John Coogan?

  He's basically just saying, let's pressure them. Let, let, let's make sure we have more regulation, right?

• 1:07:02Saagar Enjeti?

  Exactly. More regulation. On the right, I mean, much of this is going to be about distrust of Sam and many of the tech guys themselves. I mean, when you have these people outwardly bragging about mass job loss, mass societal, uh, creation. There's a lot of us who are like, yeah, do I want this guy who's introducing AI porn to be the most powerful person in the world?

• 1:07:24Jordi Hays?

  I mean, the challenge, the challenge is that the, the job loss, like, uh, like vision is so good for fundraising. Because if, if, you know, people are, are like, yeah, maybe I don't have a job in 10 years. It's like, well, I want, I want, I want my money going into these companies. So at least I'll, I'll, I have a chance at escaping the, the permanent underclass. Question for you. Social media went through, you know, and continues to go, it's like a perpetual backlash at this point. People say they hate it. They don't like it. They say it's bad. Many of those people still use it. How do you think this this AI development is different than that?

• 1:08:06Jordi Hays?

  In that a generation will just log off and or do you think it's it'll be the same type of dynamic where people say they hate it, they're frustrated with the potential impacts of it, but they still line up?

• 1:08:20Saagar Enjeti?

  That's a very astute observation, and I think it's going to be somewhere in between. And so, actually, Jordy, this kind of gets to the point of what I reacted to. You put out a tweet about AGI and pornography. And what I reacted to that is I was like, yeah, AGI is not coming, guys. What's coming is porn. And what that means is the internet is just coming again. And so, you know, I downloaded the ChatGPT browser. It's it's fine, you know, it's fine. It's a browser. And so it's a browser that's going to serve me. I mean, literally, the ad read before I came in was about putting ads into ChatGPT. Wow, what a business model. Somebody should have invented it already. They did. It's called AdWords in 2003. So are we just competing for the exact same type of unit economics

• 1:09:04Saagar Enjeti?

  of screen time, of use of pornography, of the very same things, which, as you said, Jordy, are making us miserable? Because that doesn't seem very cool to me. And it also doesn't necessarily justify, let's say, 80% gain of the entire S and P 500 over the last 2025. This is the stuff, actually, that I text John about literally every day when I'm like, a bubble is coming, a bubble is coming, a bubble is coming.

• 1:09:26John Coogan?

  I think I think the steel man of like, the like, the medium case, or I don't know how to put it, but it's like, if I told you, it's just like, well, yes, like, AI is not AGI, you're not going to lose your job over it. It's not going to kill anyone. But it will help you do research better. It's better autocomplete. It's this nice tool that will help clean things up, better spell check, better grammar check, you know,

• 1:09:48Jordi Hays?

  Better gambling odds.

• 1:09:50John Coogan?

  And if you're like, you're going to be, you're going to be a little bit more more knowledgeable, a little bit more A little bit more efficient and it's going to cost, we're going to need to build some data centers, but we're not going to build, you know, so many data centers that we all lose our light and heating and

• 1:10:06Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think what, what

• 1:10:07John Coogan?

  That's, that's a reasonable like abundance

• 1:10:09Saagar Enjeti?

  I think that's where we're gonna end up.

• 1:10:10John Coogan?

  That's where we should be.

• 1:10:11Jordi Hays?

  The moment we are right now is that when somebody, you know, sees an AI video of, you know, the, the one that went super viral a while back was like people on the roof of an apartment building and it's a pool and the glass breaks and people flow on.

• 1:10:25John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:25Jordi Hays?

  It's like that video and videos like it are not worth for the average American an extra a hundred dollars a month, you know, an extra thousand dollars a year added to their electrical bill. Right. And so

• 1:10:35Saagar Enjeti?

  You're exactly right. And, and that's the political dynamic. And that's why, John, I go, hey, all of that sounds great.

• 1:10:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:41Saagar Enjeti?

  Uh, it's a little worrying to put my entire retirement portfolio based upon,

• 1:10:45John Coogan?

  Totally, totally.

• 1:10:45Saagar Enjeti?

  You know, a very different message. And when that's the reality of where we're going to end up, a little bit better Microsoft Teams is just really not the anthropic vision which is being sold to me. Okay. About, I mean, I talked to a guy who works at Accenture. I said, how do you use AI? He's like, yeah, it's great. It does auto, uh, meeting summaries for me. And I was like, wow. You know, I mean, listen, definitely great. I mean, it means you don't have to hire some entry level guy, although maybe that's not great. And what really ended up happening is that you end up using it for these extraordinarily mundane tasks. I, I have no issue with that as long as the attendant, social fallout, government policy, power bills and all of that is tied up into it. Not to mention, I, I really can't belie the social cost because what you said,

• 1:11:30Saagar Enjeti?

  Jordy, is, is a central thing. There is a mass elite revolution right now against social media. And between, I, I think Jonathan Haidt might be one of the most public, like important public intellectuals in modern, in like, in a long time, leading what I think is going to be at least a top middle discussion with all of these different school districts, states and others, which are banning phones. The recognition is that they are controlling us and we need to rethink, take control of our life. AI is kind of supercharging that message. And if you talk to the vastly rich, which you do, and I've spoken to a few of them, how many of them really let unlimited screen time for their phones in the way that, you know, the income of, let's say, people making less than 100,000 do for their children. It's just completely different. You

• 1:12:15Saagar Enjeti?

  know, they're very aware of that dynamic and that is permeating social culture at a way that I don't think people in tech are quite realizing.

• 1:12:23John Coogan?

  Do you think we, it always takes a generation of guinea pigs to understand where technology winds up? I, I, cause I grew up with the, the panic around video games. And the idea that if you played Counter-Strike competitively at a very high level and became one of the greatest Counter-Strike players of 2003, you were definitely gonna be crazy. Well, I did it. I was great at Counter-Strike. I wasn't maybe one of the best ever, but I was pretty good. And I don't have any violent impulses whatsoever. I was fine. I was not one-shot by 360 no-scoping people. I became a productive member of society. And I feel like we came up with the ESRB.

• 1:13:02John Coogan?

  E, you know, R, like teen-rated games, M-rated games. And we kind of figured out like where the line is. Parents adapted, kids adapted, and we got through that. Social media, it feels like we're towards the tail end of getting through it where most parents know, hey, the, the young kids should not be on Instagram like constantly or TikTok constantly. And in it with AI, we're just starting to understand. Um, but it feels like we'll kind of wind up in the same place, which is like.

• 1:13:31Saagar Enjeti?

  You might be right, uh, but let me challenge you a little bit on the video game front. Uh, because I think that video, John, you also know my crusade against sports gambling. So Robin Hood, if you're listening, please don't allow sports betting. Uh, but one of the important things around gambling, you also know my crusade against marijuana is here's the issue with video games with all of these vices and things that you're talking about. It's fine sometimes, but there is an attendant part of society which actually does lose it when immersed in this culture. So, you know, I've pointed, unfortunately, part of my job, I cover a lot of mass shootings. We had two, or actually three. Very recently, we had Minnesota, we had also the Charlie Kirk killer, and then we also had the ice shooter.

• 1:14:12Saagar Enjeti?

  All three were deep in these weird Discord gamers. The ice guys spent 20 hours a day gaming.

• 1:14:18John Coogan?

  Discord is a social media thing.

• 1:14:20Jordi Hays?

  Discord, the, the platform.

• 1:14:21John Coogan?

  I don't think it is like a video game.

• 1:14:23Saagar Enjeti?

  But to be fair, yeah, but you guys can locate Steam data. He was logging, I don't exactly remember the number off the top of my head, but an absurd number of hours playing video games. This is somebody who's 31-year-old male.

• 1:14:34John Coogan?

  This is kind of a contrarian take. I feel like most people close the book on the video games as, as.

• 1:14:38Saagar Enjeti?

  Oh, I'm back. Brother, I never left. Okay. Actually, no, I never left. And that's part of, that's part of what I think is important to say is that people say it worked out. I, I, I just dispute that. I mean, we have millions of people now who are addicted to gambling, who are addicted to marijuana, who have gone psychotic. People who are wasting their lives in front of these screens. And it's like, did it work out? I mean, yeah, it worked out for the S and P 500. Did it work out for the United States of America? I would say no. I mean, if you put all those things together.

• 1:15:07Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it was interesting. Ryan, Ryan Cohen from GameStop came on the show on Monday. He was basically, he was, he didn't say this explicitly, but he, he was basically, it's, he was seemed generally in favor of just stopping all AI research.

• 1:15:22John Coogan?

  Well, I thought you were going to talk about his take on Call of Duty. He was like, I don't.

• 1:15:25Saagar Enjeti?

  Oh, what did he say?

• 1:15:26John Coogan?

  He was basically like, I don't want people playing Call of Duty. Like, I don't want kids playing Call of Duty, which is crazy from like the GameStop guy. He's the CEO of the company, but he was, he had sort of a similar like anti-video game take, like maybe it's not as safe as people think it is.

• 1:15:39Saagar Enjeti?

  Well, I mean, if you guys talk to teenagers and you're like, how do you guys hang out? A lot of them will be like, oh, we don't hang out very much, but we play a lot of video games.

• 1:15:45John Coogan?

  Together.

• 1:15:45Saagar Enjeti?

  Sorry, that's bad. All right. I mean, this is just, it's weird. It's weird.

• 1:15:48John Coogan?

  Wait, but what about all the dudes? I'm sure you know, some of the guys who have been like one shot by golf, where they're just golf is their whole personality. They just are, all they do all day is think about golf and then on the weekend they go golfing. It's similar, is it not?

• 1:16:01Saagar Enjeti?

  Uh, no, it's not similar because, well, okay, when I said video games, what I said is they're at home playing online with their friends.

• 1:16:07John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 1:16:07Saagar Enjeti?

  Now you and I, you guys, we're all relatively the same age.

• 1:16:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Saagar Enjeti?

  Online play was not around that time. So what you would do is you would gather at a friend's house.

• 1:16:15John Coogan?

  Yes, yes, the LAN party.

• 1:16:16Saagar Enjeti?

  Pro-social.

• 1:16:16Jordi Hays?

  It was, it was, it was, it was.

• 1:16:18John Coogan?

  Couch co-op.

• 1:16:19Jordi Hays?

  It was a thing when I was a, a kid, uh, but I, I lived somewhat in the country. And so there, before anybody could drive, it was like your, your parent wasn't necessarily, it was, it was tough to get around basically. And so video games were a way that you could hang out with your friends and otherwise it would have just been. Hanging by yourself or whatever. Maybe that's maybe that's maybe that's better.

• 1:16:44Saagar Enjeti?

  Uh, maybe. I mean, I don't know.

• 1:16:46Jordi Hays?

  What would what would get you to what would get is is there any can you imagine any scenario that would get you to change your mind on? On AI because I'm I'm with you of right now. It feels like. AI is an expand like the current state of AI in terms of products that people use and. And are an everyday part of their life is just an extension of big technology, right?

• 1:17:08Saagar Enjeti?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:08Jordi Hays?

  OpenAI has the aesthetics now. Of a big tech company. They launch products like they're a big tech company. They have a user base like they're a big tech company. They're very young, but that's what they look and feel like. They still have. They're nonprofit and they still have, you know, a research arm that is. Working on AGI, but it's hard for people to spend too much time. Thinking about AGI research when all the launches and the announcements are social media and new web browsers and erotica and things like that. And so, but I'm curious, you know, and this is something we are always trying to tease out on the show is. People that come on the show to talk about AI typically have some AI to sell you or some.

• 1:17:52Jordi Hays?

  They have a startup equity to sell you. Uh, that that is that's sort of predicated on on on these sort of. More utopian visions of of AI. Uh, and it's hard to parcel out, right? And so you had the the Carpathia interview recently, which was. Kind of throwing.

• 1:18:08Saagar Enjeti?

  Fantastic interview.

• 1:18:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and I I that didn't necessarily like update my worldview a lot. I think you put a lot of these ideas really well, right? This idea of. Of, you know, agents are not, you know, uh, are not, uh. The the agents that we were promised maybe this year are not here yet, and I think that's that's okay, but. I'm curious, what would what would update your worldview? Um, because it's hard. It's like if we get massive job loss, you're not going to be sitting here like.

• 1:18:34John Coogan?

  If we get like an Ozempic level drug success that was designed from AI, that probably makes it all worth it, right?

• 1:18:41Saagar Enjeti?

  I think what John is correct is just show me like actually show it to me. Stop telling me because it's creeping me out to watch. Talk about UBI and you know, oh, where everyone's gonna be, you know, extremely happy, even though I run the entire world. I mean, listen, this, I gotta put my own cynicism and bias on the table. Like, I'm literally an anti-establishmentarian podcaster. When these guys open their mouths, I'm just like, you're lying. And most of the time, that turns out to be true.

• 1:19:09John Coogan?

  Yeah. So, so, so I would, I would take the other side of this argument and, and say that it is possible that we never get some sort of big binary moment where we're like, oh, my God, yes. Like, it did the thing that we wanted to do, but it's still like net good. I think about it like, uh, you know, the invention of the credit card. It's like, it just like speeds up the economy every little, it takes a little bit of friction out so that the, the corner store can sell a couple more muffins and then the person can pay with the digital, you know, the digital cash stored in their bank account and they don't need to do the check writing and it sort of puts a couple check writers out of business, but people have new jobs because they can do more things.

• 1:19:52Jordi Hays?

  Digital currency will track your, your CO2 consumption.

• 1:19:58John Coogan?

  No, no, no. But there are, but there are tons of, there are tons of examples of like-

• 1:20:03Jordi Hays?

  Not to put on the tinfoil hat, but do you, do you think it's, do you think it's funny how for basically decades, people were so against central bank digital currencies? And now they're like, let me, now, now, now everybody's like, I present to you stable, stable coins.

• 1:20:18John Coogan?

  Uh, they're a little bit different, but yeah.

• 1:20:20Jordi Hays?

  Sure, they're different, but, but the potential risks associated with digital, digital money are still, are still there.

• 1:20:29Saagar Enjeti?

  Yeah, I, I, I want to pick up on what John said. I think it's such an important point, which is, I think you are exactly correct, but this is why I react so negatively to the rhetoric. And, you know, guys, I mean, sure, you have as well. One of my favorite books, dot com, you know, by Cassidy, I could go through the list. Michael Lewis has a book on dot com. I, I've read through, I even, I, I watched a few documentaries. CNN, and you'll never hear me say this, actually has some decent documentaries about the decades and they have a decent documentary about the 1990s. Shout out to the old CNN. Shout out to the old CNN. They had a great documentary about the 90s, which I watched. And the same level of enthusiasm, they were talking about the information superhighway is quite literally matches

• 1:21:12Saagar Enjeti?

  much of the rhetoric of today. I'm too young to actually have experience much of it on the airwaves, but the same way and the fervor, which was fueling so much of dot com, just seems, I mean, same thing, like ironically, I use chat GPT. Uh, just before I came on here, because I knew we were going to talk about this.

• 1:21:30Jordi Hays?

  That's what I was saying. That's what I was saying, though. It's, it's, it's one of those things like people, like social media, they hate it, but they use it.

• 1:21:36Saagar Enjeti?

  Yeah. Well, I, I don't hate chat GPT. I just don't.

• 1:21:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:40Saagar Enjeti?

  Oh, my finding was that we are mirroring almost exactly the same levels of tech stock growth from the year 1999 of the entire S and P 500 of stock gains and similar ones in terms of our GDP. If anything, the GDP number is higher today. So the systemic risk, which matches the rhetoric and that the risk itself of, the fact is, you know, John, what I've probably been texting you the most about is these round tripping vendor finance deals. And you, you made a great point to me privately about ASML and how vendor finance itself is not necessarily a negative term in and of itself, but it's really hard not to go and read the story of Cisco. And to say, hey, you know, if we have very similar type of downturn and reduction of expected revenue,

• 1:22:25Saagar Enjeti?

  I'm not saying OpenAI itself will go bankrupt, but that itself is fueling the entire retirement portfolio of the whole country, not to mention GDP, interest rates, everything is banking on this one sector. I think that's really dangerous. And especially that background article, you guys are going to know a lot more than me, but Sam's story about, uh, you know, going back to Masayoshi San, which look, no offense to the viewers, um, you know, I read the WeWork book. I, I'm just saying, I'm not saying I trust the guy.

• 1:22:56Jordi Hays?

  Well, credit, credit on, on Mas, uh, with WeWork, Mas never really got a markup, right? Or maybe he got one or two, but not, not, not a lot on the real dollar.

• 1:23:04John Coogan?

  No, he, no, he was buying the top.

• 1:23:06Jordi Hays?

  He top ticked it. And so the, the dialogue earlier this year was. Is Masa top blasting opening eye? And then of course, you know, opening eyes up, you know, another one or half.

• 1:23:16Saagar Enjeti?

  Listen, his deal worked out, but it was more just the to the extent of it's very similar kind of Adam Newman-esque to me about like, oh, Sam, you need to go bigger. And that's exactly what encourages him to start doing so many of these deals. I don't begrudge them necessarily to do it, but you know, I really took to heart the too big to fail element of this because I'm thinking about this from a massive side.

• 1:23:35Jordi Hays?

  Just say, just say you're not an investor in SoftBank Group Corp. Up a hundred, up a hundred, up 173% year to date.

• 1:23:44John Coogan?

  Uh, we, so we have Jordan Schneider from China Talk joining in just a minute, but the last question I want is, uh, the update on, you know, the, obviously, you know, you believe there's an AI bubble. Uh, is there a media bubble? Is David Allison trying to build one? Like what's going on in the media landscape? We were trying to map it out earlier, taking you through, uh, new media, neo media, traditional media, the legacy media, the mainstream media. There's so many different phrases, like what's the most interesting story in media in 2025? Because we've already had the story about like, we're leaving the mainstream and going independent.

• 1:24:18Saagar Enjeti?

  Here's my counter take, uh, which I really came home with the gambling story recently at NBA. There is a new media bubble and it's in sports and it's entirely because FanDuel and DraftKings have propped up way too many people with opinions. And when there is even a modest pushback on prop bets and the rest of the bullshit that these sports books are allowed to send you, PM, pardon my take, and maybe two or three others are going to make it. Everybody else is going to get wiped out. There are way too many sports, uh, sports podcasts. If you're out there and in my opinion, the biggest bubble is in sports media right now, entirely inflated by the gambling industry.

• 1:24:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. What, do you have any, do you have any sense what percentage of advertising revenues in, in sports podcasting is gambling?

• 1:25:02Saagar Enjeti?

  But I would venture to say 80 to 90%. Yeah. I would say 80 to 90%.

• 1:25:06John Coogan?

  I think the Pat McAfee deal was maybe 50% paid for by, uh, sports betting.

• 1:25:11Jordi Hays?

  Well, I have a startup to pitch you. There's a new startup that launched that allows you to bet on your bills, OnlyFans, child support, and last night Ubers wipe them from your By playing your favorite casino games all from the comfort of their app. Are you?

• 1:25:27John Coogan?

  So if you have a big only fans bill, you can gamble it away. You can gamble it away.

• 1:25:31Saagar Enjeti?

  You know, the investor in me, the investor in me wants to, the investor in me wants to buy that company.

• 1:25:38John Coogan?

  You need a vice clause on your own investments.

• 1:25:40Saagar Enjeti?

  Yeah, you're right. I mean, I've said, as much as I preach against this stuff, if I actually had to open a business, it would be called game day loans, like instead of payday loans, and it would float sports betters who are out there who need like an 18 to 25% interest. So that's a free idea out there. Game day loans, I'm telling you, it'd be a billion dollar company.

• 1:25:58John Coogan?

  It's gonna happen.

• 1:25:59Saagar Enjeti?

  It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. If you want to sell it to FanDuel, you're ready.

• 1:26:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. What, what's your last thing? What's your kind of like timeline on, on this sort of tension bubbling up around data centers and slop and, and the bailout overall?

• 1:26:15John Coogan?

  I have a very clear idea of how, of how like how bubbles build in the private markets.

• 1:26:20Jordi Hays?

  It can get more, it can get a lot more intense from here.

• 1:26:22Saagar Enjeti?

  It'll go national in 2026. The Democrats are gonna win a decent amount of elections. Anti-tech is already a small D democratic issue. They are gonna start hearing a ton of it at town halls. It's already happening and 2026, 2027 is when it's gonna happen.

• 1:26:37John Coogan?

  And on the right, you're tracking like Marjorie Taylor Greene or Josh Hawley, like who's, who's gonna be leading the front there on the right?

• 1:26:44Saagar Enjeti?

  It'll probably be Tucker Carlson at the top and from that point it will flow to the Marjorie Taylor Greene's, the Josh Hawley's. I'd be very curious to see where, where JD lands on this, actually where David, David, I mean, is a central figure in MAGA right now. Yes, David Sacks.

• 1:27:01Jordi Hays?

  Sacks' point, Sacks', Sacks' point, I think from earlier this week was that without AI, you have basically zero GDP growth. So I think he's taking the sigh of-

• 1:27:10Saagar Enjeti?

  That's the problem. And listen, that's not his fault. He's the AI advisor. He should be making that point. But if I want to lead our country, that's not the sell I'm making because what we have learned over the last 25 years.

• 1:27:22Jordi Hays?

  We need to prop up the economy so you can lose your job.

• 1:27:25Saagar Enjeti?

  Yeah, exactly. There you go. That is the, that is the end all of this entire conversation.

• 1:27:31John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:27:32Jordi Hays?

  This is, this is the, this is the final boss of the, of the anti-tech wave. It really is the, is the potentially, potentially the final battle.

• 1:27:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Jordi Hays?

  And it's gonna be, it's gonna be, it's gonna be crazy and I'm, I'm excited to have many more conversations.

• 1:27:48John Coogan?

  The singularity will be, yeah, yeah. We'd love to have you back. This is so much fun.

• 1:27:53Saagar Enjeti?

  Thank you guys for having me. I really appreciate it.

• 1:27:54Jordi Hays?

  Always welcome.

• 1:27:55John Coogan?

  And congratulations on, on all your success, obviously.

• 1:27:58Saagar Enjeti?

  Well, I've been doing this shit for seven years. Nobody gave me a Sunday New York Times profile. Okay, so I don't know what's going on here.

• 1:28:05Jordi Hays?

  We know, we know a guy.

• 1:28:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we gotta make it happen. Well, thank you so much. Have a great weekend. We'll talk to you soon.

• 1:28:11Jordi Hays?

  Cheers, Sagar.

• 1:28:11Saagar Enjeti?

  You too.

• 1:28:11John Coogan?

  Before we bring in Jordan Schneider from China Talk, let me tell you about Linear. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building projects and products. Meet the, meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product roadmaps. Let's bring in Jordan Schneider from China Talk. Jordan, how are you doing?

• 1:28:28Jordan Schneider?

  I'm doing all right. You should have kept me on with that last guest. That was great.

• 1:28:32John Coogan?

  I know. Yeah, we, we started doing a little bit of that earlier this week. We had like Brian Armstrong and Brian Chesky kind of next to each other for a little bit.

• 1:28:40Jordan Schneider?

  Call him back in because the answer is we will all be so distracted by our AI boyfriends and girlfriends that we won't be stressed out about losing our jobs.

• 1:28:49Jordi Hays?

  I, I think, I, I actually, it's very, it's very dark, but I think that the world is so entertained now that almost nothing matters. And it's sad, but no matter how dark certain futures could be, it's, it's, it's expected that everyone will have infinite entertainment constantly. And it, it's so much harder for people to stand up and protest and try to create change if, you know, you can go back to your phone and, and, oh, here's another funny video. I just saw Stephen Hawking's of the X Games and it was awesome and I'm gonna send it to a friend and.

• 1:29:31John Coogan?

  It, it actually is awesome though. It is sick. It's really sick. It's totally worth paying a lot for that.

• 1:29:39Jordi Hays?

  Totally worth the extra $2,000.

• 1:29:41Jordan Schneider?

  The duality of TVP and.

• 1:29:43John Coogan?

  I haven't even seen my dog do it yet. Just wait. Once I see my dog at the X Games.

• 1:29:48Jordi Hays?

  No, I think I think it's important. I think like you can't, you know, I I've I continue to be a firm believer that the technology is a massive net positive for the world, but it has a dark side and it's important to talk about it. And it's will be important to continue to talk about it and.

• 1:30:07Jordan Schneider?

  It's it's numbing. There's like a there's like a taking antidepressants lens to it, right? Where you just kind of feel less if you get these dopamine hits and we've, you know, we have not evolved to have the dopamine hits with, you know, within literally five seconds. Anytime you feel bad about yourself or bad about the world or something that happened around you or, you know, someone disappointed you in your life. It's like, oh, okay. Like, instead of like addressing that or, you know, going to protest to Jordy's point. You know, we can be consoled by these things that live in our pockets and they're only going to get better at it, which is the sort of, I guess, awesome.

• 1:30:50Jordi Hays?

  This is the worst. This is the worst the dopamine feedback loop will ever be.

• 1:30:56John Coogan?

  This is the worst the infinite jest will ever be. Do you think China is less dopamine-addled, like probably brain-rotted? Because we hear these anecdotes about like no, no, no brain-rot TikToks.

• 1:31:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, their TikTok is just science videos.

• 1:31:12Jordan Schneider?

  It's just absolutely not.

• 1:31:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, right?

• 1:31:14Jordan Schneider?

  Absolutely not. I mean, look, like, who needs who needs opiates for the masses more? Like a country with 20% youth unemployment or a country that has like, what, 3.5% unemployment? I think the the party has successfully kind of like.

• 1:31:32John Coogan?

  Wait, which country has 20% unemployment?

• 1:31:35Jordi Hays?

  China.

• 1:31:36John Coogan?

  Youth unemployment? Yeah. Which country are you talking about?

• 1:31:39Jordan Schneider?

  Well, yeah, give us, let AI run for an extra year or two, I guess.

• 1:31:43Jordi Hays?

  Those are rookie numbers.

• 1:31:45John Coogan?

  If you told me that was America, I'm not that far off. I mean, I've heard that the numbers are going up. They might have spiked.

• 1:31:52Jordan Schneider?

  But no, I think, I think there is, I think this sort of, you know, it's fun. You guys should have Jasmine and Son and I asked her this, like, um, uh, cause she just came back from a trip to China. I was like, who walks around looking down at their phone more people in the Bay or China? Um, and she couldn't really distinguish between the two. Um, I don't, uh, just like, like, just like equally sort of like zoned in while like walking down the street, you are like simultaneously swiping.

• 1:32:22Jordi Hays?

  Ben, Ben Sand in our chat says iOS Liquid Glass is the best line of defense against phone addiction. I totally agree. It's just like the worst software Apple's released in so long and it, it just makes using your phone worse. So I'm sure, I hope, I hope my screen time is going down.

• 1:32:38Jordan Schneider?

  Don't worry, Johnny Ive will come in to save the day, Jordy. We won't be safe. That's not, that, that won't save us for long.

• 1:32:43John Coogan?

  Yeah. Okay. Wait, uh, zoom out. The original reason we wanted to chat was because of the, it's always fun to have you on the show, but, uh, obviously about the rare earth, like just give us the, the high level update on like the trade war. This has been what? Since the entire time, since your very first appearance.

• 1:32:59Jordi Hays?

  Is it real?

• 1:33:00John Coogan?

  It's a year.

• 1:33:01Jordi Hays?

  Is it real?

• 1:33:01John Coogan?

  I- is it even worth like thinking about like what the high level summary is of the, of the status of the debate?

• 1:33:07Jordan Schneider?

  Sure. I mean, I think like, like, look, we've seen this administration swing from side to side on lots of different things. You know, we were yelling at Zelensky in the Oval Office and now we're finally doing the sanctions that Biden couldn't bring himself to do around oil. Um, you know, we had Trump trying to, you know, doing, uh, Liberation Day, taking it off. Um, you know, giving them H20s. They don't want them. Now, um, uh, we're trying, now, now they sort of tried to tighten the, the grip with the, um, 50% rule from, from BIS. So sort of Huawei subsidiaries

• 1:33:47Jordan Schneider?

  can't buy equipment and China came back with rare earths. I think the sort of, the, the fundamental fact is that like both countries have the, uh, you know, the, the sort of, both countries have the ability to do significant economic harm to each other and it's a bit of, um,

• 1:34:05Jordan Schneider?

  You know, there's an aspect of playing chicken.

• 1:34:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:08Jordan Schneider?

  And there's a, and there's this kind of question of escalation dominance, like which side can take more pain?

• 1:34:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:14Jordan Schneider?

  And which side really cares more?

• 1:34:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:16Jordan Schneider?

  And on which dimensions?

• 1:34:18John Coogan?

  Both of them have, have basically a ranked list of, of tools in the tool chest, chips on the poker table. And something like, we're not going to sell you rare earth is extremely painful to America, maybe not that painful to China. And then we're going to tax Happy Meal toys or whatever is, is maybe, you know, something in the American tool chest. Or, and the Nvidia thing. And i- is the process that we should think about the lens of this year more thinking about just every, both sides are trying to actually understand the shape of how painful each tool in the tool chest is? Because it feels like we're, we're very much like turning these things on, turning them off to understand, okay.

• 1:35:03John Coogan?

  If rare earths are plus 60 points, Nvidia chips, we thought it was plus 20 points for the US, it's actually plus five. It feels like we're just trying to like map all these out and then we will go to the meeting and actually say, okay, what's equal? Is that what's happening?

• 1:35:18Jordan Schneider?

  Yeah. Well, the, the, the problem is, I think the, the Xi has had a longstanding goal, which he's, which he's repeated in speeches numerous times, that he wants to make China more self-reliant. He, and he wants to make the rest of the world reliant, you know, more reliant on China. And the problem with what you're seeing out of the Trump administration's policy towards this is what they're optimizing for changes literally week to week. So, you know, tariffs are for revenue, tariffs are for, you know, this trade war is to bring manufacturing back. This trade war is to actually help Nvidia gain market share in China. This video, the trade war is to crush the Chinese semiconductor companies.

• 1:36:03Jordan Schneider?

  And the, the problem is, is like, it would be easier to sort of get to some sort of equilibrium where each side is just going to run as fast as they can at their things. Like if this administration And had a sort of grand vision that it was working towards consistently for. But I think the the dance that we've seen now play out over they've met each other like 15 times is it seems like the negotiators every time they go are actually operating under kind of like different a different incentive structure. So and I think this just plays to China's benefit. Because the fact of the matter is, America has an enormous amount of power and leverage

• 1:36:45Jordan Schneider?

  that it could bring to bear. But the first time that China bit back, in the case of rare earths, that kind of really freaked out the Trump administration and it showed and sort of the

• 1:37:00Jordi Hays?

  So so to make this

• 1:37:02Jordan Schneider?

  Sorry, yeah, please.

• 1:37:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, to make to make this more tangible, like, how is this netting out for China's AI industry? The messaging has been, obviously, you know, we're not you're not going to buy Nvidia chips. Maybe we'll look the other way on Malaysia and Singapore data centers. We're going to invest as much as possible in catching up to the leading edge in our own, you know, domestic semi industry. We're going to dominate in power and in five to 10 years, like, we're going to be, you know, relatively, you know, in their view, hopefully, you know, relatively equal in terms of like overall computing power. And then I want to get a sense of like, on the rare earth side, how solvable that is for the US in your view.

• 1:37:49Jordan Schneider?

  Well, Chris Miller on China Talk had a good line, like, we're just we're about to see what's easier to do, build an EUV machine or build a rare earths mining, you know, rare earth mines and refining facilities. So from the Chinese AI perspective, I do think that their decision to sort of say, we don't even want your H20s is fascinating. On the one hand, it may just be a ploy to get Blackwell to be like, oh, OK, like, we don't want this. We'll sell you even harder drugs to use Lutnik's like addiction. Phrase, but there also may be some sort of information mismatch because there obviously are lots and lots of

• 1:38:34Jordan Schneider?

  sort of Chinese AI labs and hyperscalers who would love to buy Nvidia chips, but Huawei may have gotten into the ear of the state council saying, yo, like, we got this. Don't worry, like, you know,

• 1:38:46Jordi Hays?

  But isn't there also, haven't, haven't, you know, hasn't like Singapore and Malaysia like spiked quite a bit like, can that demand not just flow there?

• 1:38:57Jordan Schneider?

  Yeah, so it turns into a bit of a bridge. And this is something that the administration seems to be, well, look, if you're, if you're fine selling the chips into China, yeah, why not just sell them into into Malaysia and Singapore? I mean, I for one, I'm more comfortable with that as a kind of intermediate step. But the problem with that is like, what you're doing is providing this bridge for all these competitors of the US AI stack to kind of like, keep developing and stay on the frontier such that when Huawei really is able to scale, you know, potentially is able to scale to a level to compete with Nvidia, you have these firms still running. And the question I really want to know is like, look, if we're, if we want to sell the AI stack to the world,

• 1:39:43Jordan Schneider?

  why don't we just make, why aren't we selling like all of it? Like, why is it cool that we're just doing the Nvidia stack and then like, we're having, we're, we're allowing Nvidia to do partnerships with like Alibaba cloud abroad and like sell that into into Malaysia? I mean, it would not be that hard to say, okay, like you want Nvidia chips, you should also be working with American hyperscalers and you should be buying from AI and buying Western models. That seems to me to be like a, like a, like there aren't too many like alternatives on the table. The US does have the the leverage there. And I think it's a shame that that's not the line we're pushing. We're, we're instead just sort of like, ending the monopoly of the AI stack at the chip layer and letting the the clouds and models just, you know,

• 1:40:28Jordan Schneider?

  Go whichever way they want.

• 1:40:29John Coogan?

  Do you think America needs a deep seek for energy? An American deep seek for energy, right? So what that would mean is like, what did DeepSeek do? Like, they got, they jumped to our friends here.

• 1:40:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so if Jordan Schneider is the work catch of the deep state.

• 1:40:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, really cheap, really fast. And but they stole like our fundamental thing. They're like, we need to steal how fast they can build energy over there and make it an American company. So however they build stuff.

• 1:40:55Jordan Schneider?

  Or just like invent nuclear fusion. Yes, John.

• 1:40:57John Coogan?

  Well, is that nuclear fusion?

• 1:40:59Jordi Hays?

  I have a feeling.

• 1:41:00John Coogan?

  No, no, no, it's something that they're doing, right? Aren't they, aren't they install, they're growing way more energy? So what is the company that's doing that over there? What's the organization over there? What do they have that's special? Let's, let's copy that. Is that possible?

• 1:41:13Jordan Schneider?

  I mean, the, the answer is like, it would like, the reason I went to nuclear fusion is like, it would be really nice to have a shortcut. Um, because the answer is like really boring and frustrating.

• 1:41:24Jordi Hays?

  But don't you think America will, don't you think America will just get lucky like we always do? Discover, you know, some novel, you know, method of energy. But we always, anytime we need a resource, we just find some of it. I feel like we'll have.

• 1:41:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, I've been hearing about this, yeah.

• 1:41:39Jordan Schneider?

  This is the, this is the whole Tyler Cowen thing. Like, do not underestimate the elasticity of supply. Um, it's not just finding it, right? It's like all of these, you know, global capitalism is now scared of their dependence on Chinese rare earths. And they kind of got a taste of that in April. Um, you know, they should have learned their lesson in 2014 when China did this to Japan. But now it's really real. And now, you know, all, all your VC friends that come on the show are, are going to understand that this is a, this is a much more investable. You know, finding like the solution to Yoturbium and like, um, you know, manufacturing like lab grown diamonds. Like, people are going to be willing to pay a premium for that stuff in a way that they maybe weren't, um, even six months ago.

• 1:42:24John Coogan?

  Why are lab grown diamonds important? There is actually a cyan banister company, Long Journey, is in, uh, something called Diamond Age.

• 1:42:31Jordan Schneider?

  Amazing. I mean, it's

• 1:42:33John Coogan?

  But is that important in the rare earth

• 1:42:34Jordan Schneider?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an input to, I think China. This is actually one of the ones that the world is doing okay on. China has like 70% of the market. But yeah, it's, it's part of the sort of you know, it's, it's used in fabs as part of the sort of manufacturing process.

• 1:42:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How are you tracking the backlash to data center build out? Well, you were just talking to Sagar and Jetty about this, like, he thinks that like, there's going to be a serious backlash. What's the deep state saying, Jordan?

• 1:43:07Jordan Schneider?

  So here's the answer. You, you saw these, you may have seen these articles come out with the Secretary of the Army talking to PE firms about how they're going to lease out land. It's like, all right, well, it's just like, let's build this stuff on, yeah, just build this stuff on military bases.

• 1:43:25John Coogan?

  He's been on our show.

• 1:43:26Jordan Schneider?

  No one's going to complain if it's just like in the middle of nowhere.

• 1:43:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:32Jordan Schneider?

  And, and you know, you can pollute all you want on those. There are all these sort of regulatory exemptions for these places.

• 1:43:39Jordan Schneider?

  I think the money's going to find a way. The problem with this is like, sure, you know, the, the, the NIMBY stuff is useful. When it's like, you're going, when it's like one neighborhood, right? Or two neighborhoods, but like, you can put this stuff almost anywhere. And it is like 97% as useful as if you get to build it in, in Virginia, right? So I'm not, I'm not all that pessimistic. I think, okay, maybe a few, a few, a few localities will be like loud enough to kick it out, but America's pretty big. There's a lot of places.

• 1:44:14John Coogan?

  I like that.

• 1:44:16Jordi Hays?

  What, what do you think's going to happen on the humanoid front? We saw this really insane demo of a Unitree robot that was transitioning from walking to like crawling like an insect. And now Unitree is selling in Walmart. And it just feels like we're going to repeat the DJI thing where we let one of, every American have a humanoid in their home that

• 1:44:37Jordi Hays?

  you know, a Chinese humanoid in their home. And I'm, I'm sort of surprised that we're running this back.

• 1:44:42Jordan Schneider?

  It's interesting. I mean, there's, there aren't real competitors at scale for the consumer market in the US yet. I mean, there are very straightforward regulatory things that the Trump administration could do to ban them. There's also a handful of kind of dependencies that the Chinese robotics ecosystem still has on the US, still has connected to the US. So, you know, a lot of those chips come from TSMC, like there's, there's a sort of like Nvidia software layer. Maybe this is something that the Trump administration is thinking about when they're saying, oh, we're gonna like ban critical software. So there are things that the US can do to kind of slow down the, the

• 1:45:23Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, and I just, I just like

• 1:45:25Jordan Schneider?

  If they really want to.

• 1:45:26Jordi Hays?

  Humanoids are not, you know, even in Uni, UniTris Robots' current form, it's not like they're delivering incredible value to Americans. And by banning them, you're like, you know, reducing, you know, the productivity of businesses or anything like that. And so it feels like maybe in two years, they're actually providing some value across the economy. It'll be much harder to go out and say, we're gonna ban the cheap ones and you have to buy American. And it just feels, you know, I don't, I

• 1:45:52Jordan Schneider?

  Sure. Well, what's really interesting is like in Ukraine, UGVs are a real thing now. So, you know, a lot of the like, sort of resupplying infantry that's on the front line is an incredibly dangerous thing. And now they just have these little track robots that go back and forth. You've even seen videos of like a CASIVAC, so people who are injured, that they can't, you know, carry out in any other way, being sort of like, rolling themselves onto some like bed and, and having a drone drive them out. So I'm, I'm with you, Jordy. The stuff like, they're kind of cute and fun for now, but we'll get like, we'll get there pretty soon. It's not going, it's, it's not impossible.

• 1:46:33Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, they're, they're cute, they're cute. But at the same time, when it, when the humanoid starts crawling across your floor and you realize, and, and your, your, your human alarm, you, you, you It oddly seems way more trashable to me. Biological alarm bell going off that says like, this thing like, looks like it, like from all the sci-fi movies I've seen, this thing looks like it wants to kill me.

• 1:46:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, it feels way more tractable to me like self-driving cars, like, you know, OCR-ing text in an image. It feels like something that we can just like chip away at versus like the novel scientific discovery thing. That feels like very uniquely human, very complex, like much further out. This is just like make the motors work the right ways. It feels very simple. Like, we're not trying to make someone superhuman at moving. Like, it's just do the thing that any human can do, and we have tons of training data for stuff.

• 1:47:27Jordi Hays?

  How are, what's happening in Chinese markets right now?

• 1:47:30Jordan Schneider?

  I don't know, man. I'm just the tech guy. I'm gonna pass on that. Let me, let me go back to the-

• 1:47:39Jordi Hays?

  You should, you should spin up a, spin up a small venture fund on the side, then you'd be able to answer that question.

• 1:47:44Jordan Schneider?

  Well, no, well, the thing, the thing that I am spinning up that I'm looking, that I want your blessing from, actually, is so I've started a new series about war. I think it is actually just SportsCenter for War. We've been doing it once a week. The current name is Second Breakfast, but I think WVPN would probably be a better thing. So I don't know what the licensing arrangement is here. Maybe this is a conversation for offline.

• 1:48:11John Coogan?

  I love the Second Breakfast concept. I love the, I love the topic selection. I would not recommend SportsCenter for War because the, because like there are just gonna be episodes that are sensitive, and it's hard to bring humor and levity to something that's really dark.

• 1:48:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, SportsCenter is about providing an entertainment layer over existing entertainment. And like, I'm sure it's been a little dark this week with all of the gambling ring action, but uh-

• 1:48:44John Coogan?

  But in general, most of the time-

• 1:48:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't think you want the, I don't think you want your face across the New York Times being like Jordan Schneider's-

• 1:48:51John Coogan?

  Jordan Schneider, the SportsCenter for War guy. Yeah, it is tricky. I mean, people have pitched us like, oh, are you going to do a trading card for the hostages being released or something in geopolitics and stuff? And it's like, it just feels like that's not our space. And when you recontextualize it, even if it's a positive story, it still feels like, oh, there's like, there's real lives at stake versus like, you know, just money at stake, which is what we talk about, or just, or just points in the imaginary sports world. In the literal sports world, like, it is just a game. Yes, it's extremely high stakes for at the Super Bowl, but it is just a game. And so you can have a lot of fun with that. And you can also have fun

• 1:49:33John Coogan?

  with just some VCs who are writing checks. But the war thing is a little bit, it requires a little bit more sensitivity, I think.

• 1:49:39Jordan Schneider?

  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because like, this community is just chock full of dark humor. So, you know, I've told this to a few people, and they just like, think it's the funniest thing in the world.

• 1:49:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, I definitely think like the conversational element of talking about the war history, that makes so much sense. Like, for sure.

• 1:50:02Jordan Schneider?

  But all right, point taken.

• 1:50:05John Coogan?

  Where can people check it out? I know it's in the China Talk RSS feed. Do you have to hit Substack? How are people getting into the ecosystem?

• 1:50:13Jordan Schneider?

  Yeah, it's just, it's just on the China Talk podcast feed for now. Maybe it'll

• 1:50:17John Coogan?

  Go check it out.

• 1:50:18Jordan Schneider?

  end up metastasizing. But yes, Second Breakfast, if you need more Venezuela content in your life.

• 1:50:25Jordi Hays?

  What is, I've been out of the loop on what do you think happens with Venezuela over the next month while we're, while we're here? You can give a little taster of your, of your, of your new show.

• 1:50:36Jordan Schneider?

  Well, there's two, there's two paths where, oh, well, I guess there's three paths they're on. One, he's just bluffing, and we're going to move on to something else in a month. But like, having this many boats. In the Caribbean, sending a carrier makes me feel like it's a little more than that. So then there's path number two, where America fights like a covert war with a cartel. And then there's path number three, where we sort of like kill, exfiltrate, end up intimidating out of the country, sort of Maduro and his like leadership team. And I don't think this administration is necessarily going to be the if you break it,

• 1:51:17Jordan Schneider?

  you buy it mindset. So, you know, then I guess the cartel takes over the country. I don't know. It is not clear to me that this has been entirely thought out. It just seems a lot like a Sicario cosplay at like a giant horrific, on a giant and like really horrific scale. Maybe there's a better idea out there behind all of this. But the, the sort of head of Southcom, for whom this operation would have been like the crowning achievement, decided, like, said he was going to retire one year into his three-year tour of duty, which has basically like never happened in the past 40 years or so.

• 1:51:59Jordan Schneider?

  So, I don't know. It's going to be really messy. The US actually does have like a kind of nice case study in what, in Colombia, and what we were able to do to sort of like get the, you know, bring the, like, talk and fight the fuck out of existence over the course of the 2010s. So that's the happy story that might manifest. But the thing there is like you were working with the central government. There were only 50 Americans on the ground doing the thing. And like now we're trying to get rid of a cartel that apparently the president is saying is like one in the same with the government itself. So, I don't know. Big mess, very far from like pivoting to China.

• 1:52:44Jordan Schneider?

  But, well, we'll get there eventually, you know, it's only a matter of time.

• 1:52:49Jordi Hays?

  I know. I think you gotta maybe start with updating China talk. Maybe it's just, maybe it's just one-

• 1:52:54John Coogan?

  Globe Talk. World Talk.

• 1:52:56Jordi Hays?

  World, just World Talk.

• 1:52:57John Coogan?

  World Talk.

• 1:52:58Jordi Hays?

  Globe.

• 1:52:59John Coogan?

  World Talk.

• 1:53:00Jordi Hays?

  Globe Radio.

• 1:53:00John Coogan?

  No, I think just Jordan Schneider. I don't know. Uh, I mean, all these, all these.

• 1:53:03Jordi Hays?

  Somebody in the chat said Saturday Night Live for human rights violations. So that's what you wanna, that's what you wanna avoid with your whole SportsCenter for War thing.

• 1:53:12John Coogan?

  It could be rough. Although maybe if you just own it, I mean, like you listen to Tim Dillon, he's like extremely candid. Uh, anyway, we, we do have a guest waiting, so thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 1:53:21Jordi Hays?

  Always good.

• 1:53:21John Coogan?

  Always a great time. Let's do it again soon. We'll talk to you later and have a great weekend.

• 1:53:26Jordi Hays?

  Good to see you.

• 1:53:26John Coogan?

  See you guys.

• 1:53:27Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.

• 1:53:27John Coogan?

  Uh, before we bring in Chase from Crusoe, let me tell you about newworldhq.com. Sales tax on autopilot, spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance. We have Chase Locke Miller from Crusoe in the re-streaming waiting room. Now he's in the team, you begin Ultra Dump.

• 1:53:42Jordi Hays?

  Suit it up.

• 1:53:42John Coogan?

  Welcome to the show. You're looking fantastic. How are you, Chase? Congratulations are in order. Uh, give us the breakdown. What's the news today?

• 1:53:51Chase Lochmiller?

  Um, you know, today we are announcing the closing of our Series E round of funding, valuing the company at 10.4 billion. Gong.

• 1:54:00Jordi Hays?

  Gong. Another one, another one, another one. 10.4 billion. Two Gong hits.

• 1:54:06John Coogan?

  10? I don't know.

• 1:54:08Jordi Hays?

  Uh, fantastic, fantastic.

• 1:54:11John Coogan?

  Um, uh, how are you describing where the company, what, what you do? It's such a fascinating.

• 1:54:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. What, what exactly do you do?

• 1:54:19John Coogan?

  Because, yeah, I mean, you've been doing somewhat of the same thing for a very long time. And yet there's been multiple eras in terms of what the end, and customer has done. There's been where you sit in the stack, uh, the type of size of projects, scale of projects. So how are you describing the wheelhouse that, or the, the, the, the, yeah, where Crusoe fits?

• 1:54:40Chase Lochmiller?

  Yeah, I, I think, uh, putting it simply, you know, Crusoe is, uh, an AI factory company. So what that means, we're building, um, you know, these factories that produce intelligence. And this is both a hardware problem and a software problem. Uh, and we focus on all of the things ranging from, uh, cultivating the energy and helping develop the energy resources needed to, uh, power AI infrastructure. We're building out the data centers themselves and redesigning them to fit these large-scale accelerated computing clusters. And then we also built out this whole software platform that operates these large-scale AI factories so that they can actually be effective in producing intelligence and really enable

• 1:55:23Chase Lochmiller?

  our generation's greatest minds and entrepreneurs to do their life's work and help build and scale their AI applications to impact people around the world.

• 1:55:32John Coogan?

  Is there a superlative that you're chasing in the Neo cloud market? Do you want to be the firm that can build bigger than anyone else or faster than anyone else or more reliable? I mean, obviously, you want to win on everything, but is there something that you're chasing that you think is like the true differentiator?

• 1:55:50Chase Lochmiller?

  Yeah, I think right now, speed is the biggest focus for the business in terms of being able to move very, very quickly. It's a very dynamic market. But certainly, reliability, scale, cost, all these things really come into play. And ultimately, we want to deliver for our customers what they need, what adds value to them. So being able to deliver to our cloud customers, the best price-performance trade-off for their infrastructure solutions alongside a reliable, well-managed platform, I think, is ultimately our goal.

• 1:56:32Chase Lochmiller?

  But I think being able to do that very, very quickly right now is a major, major advantage. And it's something that's very difficult to replicate when you look at what we did in Abilene, Texas, in terms of starting from nothing into a large-scale AI factory that's managing, that's operating tens of thousands of GPUs at this point, is a very important aspect to bringing this infrastructure to life.

• 1:57:00John Coogan?

  So Abilene is up and running?

• 1:57:02Chase Lochmiller?

  Yes, we announced recently the first phases of the 1.2 gigawatt campus are operational today.

• 1:57:11John Coogan?

  Operational. That's incredible, because I feel like there was this whole press cycle about like, oh, it's off track. And it's like, this thing was announced like months ago. I expect these things to take years. I don't know. I feel like people aren't taking enough of a victory lap there.

• 1:57:27Chase Lochmiller?

  Yeah, no, and I think there's been...

• 1:57:32Chase Lochmiller?

  You know, Stargate's been this like very overloaded term in terms of, you know, this, it's a company, it's a, you know, it's a site, it's a concept, it's a, you know, it's like, what is Stargate? You know, I'm still not entirely sure, but, uh, you know, there's, uh, I think we got wrapped up a little bit in the, uh, you know, rumors swirling that this thing's behind or, you know, that, uh, the company is behind, but, you know, the project has, uh, done extremely well.

• 1:58:01John Coogan?

  People took the most expensive, the most, the most ambitious vision and the shortest possible timeline, and that became what you were measured against, basically.

• 1:58:09Chase Lochmiller?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:10John Coogan?

  And so it was like, unless, unless a trillion dollars is in the ground working in six months, like, it's over. It's like, wait, we never said that.

• 1:58:17Jordi Hays?

  Well, it rightfully had a lot of pressure because the project got announced via the president. That's not very standard for, for, uh, you know, a launch.

• 1:58:26John Coogan?

  It's a good tip for startups. If you, if you want a, you know, spokesperson, president would be a great one.

• 1:58:31Jordi Hays?

  Tyler Cowen has a quote that's been going around quite a bit recently, which is like, "Don't underestimate the elasticity of supply, uh, in the, in the context of, uh, and it's been going around in the context of energy."

• 1:58:43John Coogan?

  Energy.

• 1:58:44Jordi Hays?

  It feels like Crusoe was started on this idea of like, there actually is a lot of energy out there, and there's real demand for it. You just gotta go out and find it. How much is that, how much is that ringing true? And as you kind of evaluate, you know, new sites and opportunities for your business?

• 1:58:59Chase Lochmiller?

  No, that's absolutely the case. And I think that's one of the things that set us apart and enabled us to, uh, move quickly and build at scale is, uh, having this energy first approach to developing the infrastructure.

• 1:59:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:12Chase Lochmiller?

  Um, part of our announcement today was, uh, announcing our energy pipeline, which, you know, is in excess of 45 gigawatts at this point. Um, and, uh, you know, putting into context, you know, the Abilene campus is 1.2 gigawatts. Um, so, you know, it's, it's, you know, orders of magnitude larger, or an order and a half a magnitude, and larger in terms of, uh, overall capacity there. Uh, I'm in New York City today, you know, it's something. You know, on the order of, you know, eight New York City's worth of power. It's a very substantial amount of power that's going to be required fundamentally for AI to scale and to really, really reach the ambitions and hopes of the industry.

• 1:59:53John Coogan?

  Last question, we'll let you go. Last time you were on, we kind of walked through a little bit of a debunk of the we're going to run out of water for data centers. What's your current thinking on the story that's emerging around like data centers are going to drive up my energy prices? Is that solvable on the short term? Is this going to be some short term pain for long term gain? Is it something that, you know, you need, you need to rethink regulation or just speed up building of new energy? How are you thinking about that question? Because it seems like it's going to get bigger and bigger.

• 2:00:28Chase Lochmiller?

  Yeah, so I actually found it fascinating. There was a report that came out recently that showed actually in markets with substantial data center investment. The overall cost of ratepayers actually came down, you know, compared to other markets where, you know, there was less digital infrastructure being built where prices actually went up substantially. And, you know, I really see this trend playing out as a whole because what, what ends up happening is, you know, the digital infrastructure players, the folks building the data centers, at this point, you know, a lot of the energy market is saturated and there isn't just, you know, a bunch of free power laying around, you know, underutilized, not doing much.

• 2:01:13Chase Lochmiller?

  You know, there's some of that, but, you know, it's becoming more and more scarce, which means that in order to realize all of these ambitions that are taking place in AI, we actually have to build out a lot of net new power. We need to build new power plants. We need to build new creative energy solutions to effectively energize this infrastructure. And when data centers are doing that, they're having to build out power capacity that meets their overall peak demands of the facility. And as a result, it ends up, you know, with some incremental power that is being underutilized. And can become an asset to other participants in those energy markets and really actually bring down their overall cost of power because there's more abundant power.

• 2:01:56Chase Lochmiller?

  And that really goes in line, you know, the crusoe mission, which is accelerating the abundance of energy and intelligence. We really view those two things as the key pillars of progress in this chapter for humanity.

• 2:02:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, I love it. I think it's definitely, I mean, there's a bunch of different political frameworks where you could use to to understand where this is going, but it feels very solvable.

• 2:02:17Jordi Hays?

  One, one, one last question that probably would would take 10 minutes to properly answer, but how much are you banking on nuclear on a shorter time horizon, if at all, talking, you know, five, five year timeline?

• 2:02:32Chase Lochmiller?

  Yeah, so we're really excited with a lot of the advancements happening in the nuclear space. You know, we have a number of partnerships across the SMR ecosystem, including a plan to energize the first SMR powered AI factory in 2027. So, you know, that's going to be sort of a smaller scale deployment, but we think will be a great template for us to hopefully scale and bring new nuclear powered AI infrastructure to life. It's also, you know, this has been a huge priority for Chris Wright in terms of, you know, helping create a regulatory framework for nuclear and sort of

• 2:03:17Chase Lochmiller?

  reevaluating the NRC, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in terms of, you know, how do we actually enable the private sector to build the energy necessary to power demands of society, data centers, you know, being a big, big component of that. So, you know, very excited and I think it's going to be a huge win. And then, you know, there's also the big nuclear plants that, you know, I'm excited to see come to life again as well. You know, Westinghouse, you know, is announcing, you know, a number of very big APW 1000 campuses that you know, we think will play another big part in in terms of getting the power we need for intelligence.

• 2:03:55John Coogan?

  I'm very excited about that. I hope that we get all those campuses online as fast as possible. Well, thank you so much for coming by the show. Sorry to get you late. We will talk to you soon. Congratulations on the Congrats to the whole team. Always great to see you. Fantastic progress. We'll talk to you soon. Have a great weekend. Cheers. Up next, we have Tucker from Orion Technologies. We are running a little bit behind. Let me tell you about fin.ai, the number one AI agent for customer service, number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bake offs, number one ranking on G2. And let's bring in Tucker for a quick hit of the gong. Give us the news. Tell us what you're building. We Welcome to the show. Would love to ring the gong for you. How are you doing?

• 2:04:41Speaker 06

  I'm doing well. I can't hear you really. It sounds like you're speaking in slow motion.

• 2:04:45John Coogan?

  Oh, odd. Check, check. Check, check. One, two. Orion Technologies, you're coming out of stealth. Would love to hear about the raise. If you can take us through just the high level, we can ring the gong and maybe we can try and have you back on later.

• 2:05:03John Coogan?

  Do we have Tucker? Let's see. We might need to move on if we have technical difficulties. We can always have you back on the show another day.

• 2:05:13Speaker 06

  Can you guys hear me?

• 2:05:15John Coogan?

  We can hear you. We can hear you great. We can hear you great.

• 2:05:19Speaker 06

  All right. I can, I can hear you guys, but it's, it sounds very slow for some reason.

• 2:05:24John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 2:05:24Speaker 06

  My name is Tucker. I'm the CEO.

• 2:05:31Speaker 06

  Um, I'm the CEO of Orion Technologies and we're coming out of stealth after a three and a half million dollar pre-fee.

• 2:05:37John Coogan?

  Let's go. Jordy, ring that gong. Thank you very much.

• 2:05:43John Coogan?

  Take us, take us one level deeper about the problem, the solution, what you're building. And then we do have to move on, but please give us a little bit more on the progress of the company, some of the decisions that you've made, how you're thinking about building the company.

• 2:05:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we are building essentially the interoperability layer for manned and unmanned aircraft. So what does that actually mean? We enable manned and unmanned aircraft to communicate, coordinate, and de-conflict. And we're starting with heterogeneous assets. So drones built from different vendors within cities and around airports today.

• 2:06:15John Coogan?

  Congratulations. We're gonna have to have you back on later. We'll do a technical check next time. But have a great rest of your day. Have a good weekend and

• 2:06:26Jordi Hays?

  And congrats on the race.

• 2:06:27John Coogan?

  Congrats on the race. We'll talk to you soon. While we bring in our next guest, let me tell you about Adio, customer relationship magic. Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level. You can get started for free.

• 2:06:38Jordi Hays?

  New technical difficulty unlocked. I haven't seen that before.

• 2:06:41John Coogan?

  We have Catherine from Valthos coming in to the TBPN Ultra Dome. She, I believe, is in the restream waiting room. Let's bring in Kathleen.

• 2:06:50Jordi Hays?

  Bring her in.

• 2:06:51John Coogan?

  Welcome back to the show.

• 2:06:52Jordi Hays?

  What's happening? Welcome back.

• 2:06:53John Coogan?

  We had you on the show. It was a very fun conversation. And we, there were some things that we could talk about. There were some things that we couldn't talk about. I'm glad that we're here today. And we have plenty to talk about. But please, kick us off with an introduction on a little bit more on yourself and the company and what you're announcing today.

• 2:07:10Speaker 07

  Yeah, last time I was here, I was so stealthy. But now very excited to announce what we've been working on. I'm Kathleen. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Valthos, which is the next generation biodefense company. So we are trying to build infrastructure for American biodefense.

• 2:07:27John Coogan?

  Amazing.

• 2:07:28Jordi Hays?

  And when we had you on, there was some, wasn't it, there was some story in the news about like some, some like Chinese, like scientists that were bringing some type of bioweapon around, or at least working on it. So good to have you back with some more happy news.

• 2:07:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, I'd love to know the state of like, what are the case studies that you're latching on to? You know, in the early days of Andorol, there was this narrative around the rising power of China and our decrepit military systems. People would talk about the failure of the, or not, the delays with the F-35 program. Do you have particular case studies and stories that you like to ground the story of your company with?

• 2:08:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, absolutely. So when we're talking about biodefense broadly, the big problem is asymmetry. So it is just so much easier, cheaper and faster to make a pathogen than it is to make any kind of cure. And that's just like at the heart of everything we're talking about. It was true before AI. But what's really changed is how some of these new AI capabilities are magnifying that type of asymmetry. It's two big ways that we're focused on in terms of the case studies you were saying. The first is more about uplift. So it's how many people, how much technical skill set does it take to actually engineer a pathogen? And that's just dropping week over week. So we used to be worried about these sophisticated state-sponsored programs. You can, you can read what our folks in defense are focused on in Russia and North Korea.

• 2:08:56Speaker 07

  Now we can talk about like a couple of students, maybe at the grad level. We have access to a lab and like, that's probably going down to one or two as these capabilities expand. So like massive, massively different landscape. The second side is just like, how potentially lethal can these threats be? So we're getting.

• 2:09:17John Coogan?

  I think we have more technical difficulties. It's a technical difficulty day.

• 2:09:22Speaker 07

  Oh, no.

• 2:09:22John Coogan?

  It's Friday, the internet is slow, but you're back.

• 2:09:24Speaker 07

  I'm back.

• 2:09:25John Coogan?

  Uh, please, uh, maybe, maybe I can reframe the conversation, not to kind of just cut you off and restart. But, uh, people have been saying we need an Anduril for bio for a while. Is that an appropriate moniker? And maybe we could use the Anduril example as understanding, uh, a little bit deeper on what you want to build. Because I think of Anduril as very much, you know, separate from Palantir, they're building hardware, they're building specific programs, record for the DOD, competing against the primes. Are there companies that you're going to be competing with out of the, out of the gate? How do you think about the shape of the business as it grows?

• 2:10:05John Coogan?

  Is this on our side? Are we having technical difficulties on our side today?

• 2:10:11Jordi Hays?

  It might be a Zoom, might be a Zoom thing.

• 2:10:13John Coogan?

  Is there, is there a major attack? Let's, uh, let's flip over to the production team. What do you guys have to say for yourselves? What's going on?

• 2:10:21Jordi Hays?

  I don't know. Is it AWS 2.0?

• 2:10:24John Coogan?

  Tyler?

• 2:10:24Speaker 07

  It could easily be us. I seem to be back now.

• 2:10:27John Coogan?

  Okay. We, yeah, I think we have, uh, I think we're back.

• 2:10:30Speaker 07

  One more chance at talking about the Android comparison.

• 2:10:33John Coogan?

  Please.

• 2:10:34Speaker 07

  I would say, uh, probably much closer to Palantir than Android. I mean, one of, one of the obvious ones is like, what, um, what does our product look like? And we're talking about software.

• 2:10:44John Coogan?

  Software.

• 2:10:44Speaker 07

  And how we bring like the, the best frontier capabilities to both understand what a threat is and then very quickly design a countermeasure to it. How do we take those things that are largely in academic labs, emerging really quickly and put it into something that's operational? It could actually react in the time as real time data flows in and you actually need to design a countermeasure. But in terms of the overall, do we need private sector innovation in this space? Absolutely. Like the people in defense and health that are absolutely at the front lines of this, keeping us safe now. The pace of biotech innovation is so massively outpacing, outpacing our ability to react to it. That like, we have to start bringing these types of tools, um, to really augment the defenses that we have today.

• 2:11:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:26Jordi Hays?

  Uh, question from the chat. Trey asks, Moderna designed the C19 vaccine in two days in a clinical dev today. The slow part is often validation trials, manufacturing and access distribution. Is Valto solving for that for biodefense?

• 2:11:43Speaker 07

  Thanks, Trey. Uh, yes, I think a huge part of it is how, how accurate you can make, uh, predictions that are coming from computational models. How did this translate, uh, into clinical development translational? Can you actually? Have a really precise understanding of what these therapeutics look like as soon as you start designing them in Silico. So that's a huge part of our focus is as more and more generative methods for countermeasure design come online, how could we help the people that are designing those drugs really quickly understand whether it will be effective against whatever kind of evolution we're seeing in terms of the pathogen landscape. I think on the manufacturing and supply chain side, another massive problem when we think about

• 2:12:25Speaker 07

  overall biosecurity for America, it's not the first challenge we're taking on, but it's certainly something we'll park around in the future.

• 2:12:32John Coogan?

  How do you think about, I don't know, there's like ISR versus like actual bombs or something in the Anduril context, like Palantir might make a map of like where all the bad guys are and then Anduril might be the one that builds the missile. How do you think about, like, does America have the ability to pull up a dashboard of every different strain of flu that is at LAX right now? Because I know LAX is like a famous Petri dish of, you know, just like different flus and colds because everyone's traveling from all over. Do we have the ability as a country to actually understand what's going on biologically across

• 2:13:17John Coogan?

  the country?

• 2:13:20Speaker 07

  Largely no. It's getting better. I think there's two dimensions to it. So a lot of the innovation we've seen in the last couple of years is focused on, do we even have like the lens? Like, is the data even flowing in of what's circulating in LAX? Or I'm closer to JFK, so that's the one that really hits home that I get worried about. The part that we're focused on and what I think has to be the next step is how do you take those data inputs and make them actionable so you can do something with it? So pathogens aren't static. It's not like there is something today and that's what we need to worry about. It's how is this changing, which means that in two weeks, what is the shape of this that we're going to have to hit? So a big part of what we're focused on is trying to understand, these are the things that are emerging today. How quickly do we know that there are threats? And then what do we need to change in terms of the countermeasures that we have to be

• 2:14:05Speaker 07

  ready for what's ever coming? So really focused, and I think that's where a lot of the Palantir analogy comes in. It's not data for data's sake. It's how do you actually pull that data into the decision making process so that you can start seeing changes in operations? And that's what we're excited to do.

• 2:14:20John Coogan?

  That makes a lot of sense. Give us the fundraising news. What happened? What's coming out of stealth?

• 2:14:24Speaker 07

  What? Well, we are very proud to announce we raised 30 million.

• 2:14:33Speaker 08

  Congratulations.

• 2:14:34Jordi Hays?

  Congratulate all. Who are the backers?

• 2:14:37John Coogan?

  Bunch of no names, right? You really had to scrape the bottom of the barrel. You had to put together a ragtag group of, you could barely call these guys venture capitalists.

• 2:14:49Speaker 07

  Everyone wants to prevent bioweapons. What can I say?

• 2:14:51John Coogan?

  No, it's a murderer's row. You got a bunch of great, a bunch of great firms in.

• 2:14:56Jordi Hays?

  FF?

• 2:14:57Speaker 07

  We do. We have Founders Fund and Lux. They've been with us from the beginning.

• 2:15:01John Coogan?

  There you go.

• 2:15:01Speaker 07

  And then we just had OpenAI, their startup firm, join in, helped lead the round. They're like, they have been ringing the alarm on what the bio, the risk of some of these new frontier methods are for bio, like way before anyone. And we're super excited to partner with them to try to stop it.

• 2:15:17John Coogan?

  Well, congratulations.

• 2:15:18Jordi Hays?

  Incredible.

• 2:15:19John Coogan?

  Would love to have you back on the show and whenever the next announcement is, whenever the next progress point comes, or whenever, hopefully, we don't have to be giving you a call when bad stuff happens. We can just talk about product releases.

• 2:15:31Jordi Hays?

  Celebrate these wins.

• 2:15:32John Coogan?

  And you'll, you'll, you'll be like a good cornerback in the NFL. We won't hear about you because you will be defending us and we won't be calling out something bad happens.

• 2:15:40Speaker 07

  Perfect. Well, prevent the headline.

• 2:15:41John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:15:42Speaker 07

  All right. Thanks a lot, guys.

• 2:15:42John Coogan?

  Thanks so much.

• 2:15:43Jordi Hays?

  Great to have you. Congrats on the team.

• 2:15:45John Coogan?

  Let me tell you about 8sleep.com. I put up a generational run last night, 98. I slept for like 10 hours. It was fantastic. Jordy, how'd you do?

• 2:15:56Jordi Hays?

  91.

• 2:15:57John Coogan?

  91.

• 2:15:57Jordi Hays?

  How many hours did you actually sleep?

• 2:15:59John Coogan?

  Let's pull it up while we bring in our next guest. I slept eight hours and 42 minutes.

• 2:16:05Jordi Hays?

  Wow. And I got to the gym.

• 2:16:07John Coogan?

  Get a pod five.

• 2:16:08Jordi Hays?

  I got to the gym 30, at least 30 minutes before you. My drive is twice as long.

• 2:16:12John Coogan?

  This whole week is gonna mess for me. I was slacking. But our next guest is from Nvidia. Dion Harris is here.

• 2:16:19Jordi Hays?

  Welcome to the show.

• 2:16:20John Coogan?

  To break it down for us. How are you doing?

• 2:16:21Jordi Hays?

  And looking incredibly sharp.

• 2:16:23John Coogan?

  You look fantastic.

• 2:16:23Speaker 08

  Thanks for having me. I didn't want to make you guys look bad, so I even threw on the jacket.

• 2:16:27John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:16:27Speaker 08

  You're a fan of the show, by the way.

• 2:16:29John Coogan?

  Thanks so much.

• 2:16:30Jordi Hays?

  So great to have you on and great to meet.

• 2:16:33John Coogan?

  Would love to get a little bit of an introduction on yourself and where you sit in Nvidia. It's not the smallest company in the world. It is in fact the largest company in the world. But how do you, how do you position yourself within the firm? What's top of mind for you today?

• 2:16:49Speaker 08

  Sure. Thanks. Thanks for having me again. So Dion Harris, I'm the Senior Director of our HBC AI and Cloud Solutions Group. So not a very imaginative marketing name, which means I run a lot of our HBC Scientific Computing National Labs. Obviously, we're here in DC. So, you know, lots of engagements supporting a lot of our national labs, both here in the US and across the world. And of course, AI and cloud speaks for itself in terms of a lot of our hyperscale clients, as well as the cloud providers who are building and delivering our platform. So engaging with a lot of those folks, partners, customers, and internally, obviously, to bring those solutions to market.

• 2:17:25John Coogan?

  Yeah. How big, do you have like a headline number that you're thinking about broadly for just AI infrastructure? It's the hottest topic these days, but how do you think about forecasting AI infrastructure? And where we'll be in a few years?

• 2:17:42Speaker 08

  Well, you know, I think Jensen has been on record, and I think it's a pretty sound sort of estimate. We expect it to be about three to four trillion dollars in AI infrastructure. And yeah, yeah, that's a big number. It's with a T. So, and I think what's really driving that, and I've been listening to the show and hearing, you know, there's a ton of demand for how and where AI can be put to use. Of course, we're familiar with the chatbots that we knew, you know, use and to speed up our email communications and to, you know, review and spell check. Those are great use cases. But what's really exciting is when you see it being used to detect new drugs. And so there's new use cases that are happening in drug discovery all the time. I do a ton of work with national labs and seeing how it's being applied to climate and weather,

• 2:18:27Speaker 08

  being able to replace a lot of our old numerical based approaches. And so using AI to go and tackle really big problems that we all care about, even if we don't see and use those applications every day, we're impacted by it. Right. And so what's really driving that number is, like I said, also looking at how AI is being brought to industries. You're going to hear a lot about next week when we, when we announce at GTC, how we're helping industry adopt AI. And this is really important, not just in terms of the bottom line of US companies, but really making the US competitive in a global scale, right? Making sure that we can deploy and run and build and manufacture

• 2:19:07Speaker 08

  at an efficiency that makes us competitive on a global scale. And so that's really going to be a lot of what we talk about here at GTC next week.

• 2:19:14John Coogan?

  Do you have, do you have one of the easier jobs in tech? Just because if I'm a data center operator, I have to answer questions about, well, are my using natural gas or clean energy? And if I'm an inference model creator, I have to answer questions about, are the answers truthful or are they fair? Or am I generating something that's valuable or am I generating slop? But Nvidia, I feel like has the perfect, it's just the perfect business because it's, you're already optimizing for the most efficiency. So no one can say, oh, well, you're, you're not taking energy efficiency seriously. Like that's the entire.

• 2:19:50Jordi Hays?

  And no one can say you're unprofitable.

• 2:19:52John Coogan?

  No one can say you're profitable. So like, how are, are you feeling good right now? Are you feeling, are you feeling happy?

• 2:20:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. What's the energy like even, even internally at Nvidia? I'm curious. It's gotta be such a wild environment.

• 2:20:07Speaker 08

  It's, you know, definitely incredibly crazy right now, but what I would say is just because there's so much interest and excitement around, not just AI, but accelerated computing, a lot of what we do, you know, we're an accelerated computing company at heart. And there's, you know, over a trillion dollars of infrastructure and still moving from CPU to GPUs. In fact, Oracle just last week announced that they're going to be accelerating their, their classic database.

• 2:20:33John Coogan?

  No way.

• 2:20:33Speaker 08

  Now that's, most people don't think about databases. And they're back ending every major application. And so, you know, when we think about Nvidia, you know, obviously accelerated computing is how we really got started. And now that we're in this era of AI. You know, we're really looking to help power every application across multiple industries. But to answer your question, we wake up thinking about how can we make our platform better?

• 2:20:58John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:20:58Speaker 08

  And how can we make it more efficient? Because that's really at the core of the value for our customers. But we're actually doing a ton of work beyond just our core platforms. In fact, our solutions are shaping and redefining how the data center overall is built.

• 2:21:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:11Speaker 08

  And so a lot of the work that we're doing is building solutions and blueprints and reference architectures that help the entire ecosystem get ready for what we're building, which delivers more efficiency at the end state. So again, I think our position is unique in the marketplace in that we totally see and understand all the new models that are being developed and coming to market. We obviously understand what our products are going to be able to do today and going forward. And we therefore are giving lots of insight into all the mechanical, electrical and plumbing infrastructure providers. The power generation folks.

• 2:21:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:44Speaker 08

  The grid providers. We're giving lots of feedback all the way up and down the supply chain.

• 2:21:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, that Oracle database on GPU thing is, it feels massive to me. It feels like very significant, like immediately, very tangible, you know, performance benefits. I can imagine, I haven't seen the actual stats, but I imagine it's extremely, it's going to be more efficient or faster. But how do you balance marketing, like sort of stories like that, stories about the AI build out with stuff that's more futuristic, more further out? There was a lot of debate on the timeline this week about.

• 2:22:21Speaker 08

  Star Cloud.

• 2:22:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, how fast GPUs will be in space and everyone's saying like,

• 2:22:25Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 2:22:25John Coogan?

  Look, like, we love this founder, we're having him on the show actually next week. It's a really exciting project, but I think everyone kind of agrees that this is not going to happen tomorrow. And the rendering, the sci-fi, it's more of a sci-fi movie that they put out. Shows like, you know, whole truckloads of GPUs moving around in space. How do you think about balancing that from the Nvidia brand perspective?

• 2:22:48Speaker 08

  Well, from our perspective, you know, we recognize that, like I said, there's a lot of interest and investment, like we talked about that three to four trillion dollars that's going to be invested in AI infrastructure. And of course, that infrastructure is going to be deployed, you know, in lots of different areas. Obviously, as we've talked about how a lot of the concentration historically has been around, you know, high populated, highly populated dense areas. But now we recognize, you know, AI factories can exist anywhere. They can exist anywhere there there's where there's, you know, cheap, clean power. And so obviously, space is someplace where there's lots of renewable energy. So, you know, I suspect that will certainly be a place where where data centers will land eventually. But right now, you know, we're really focused on how can we help build the infrastructure

• 2:23:32Speaker 08

  that's right in front of us and help really deploy that in most efficient, performant way as possible. And of course, along the way, make sure that we're adding value because that's really what what we're here to do for not just ourselves, but the broader ecosystem.

• 2:23:44Jordi Hays?

  You would you would laugh. We are running the numbers on building a hearth or a wood powered data center here at the studio. We think we think.

• 2:23:54John Coogan?

  It's surprisingly doable, like out of like a normal fireplace, we believe you could potentially power eight H100s and fine tune GPT OSS however you want it over the course of a day, basically. We haven't we haven't.

• 2:24:10Jordi Hays?

  We want to be we want to be the first Nvidia customer to be focused on the wood powered data center.

• 2:24:15John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:24:16Jordi Hays?

  It's our own part of it's our own part of the market map.

• 2:24:19John Coogan?

  It's very cozy to chop firewood and and boil water as they did hundreds of years ago.

• 2:24:26Jordi Hays?

  Well, I'm I'm super excited for for GTC next week.

• 2:24:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, this is great. Yeah. Thank you so much for giving us a little preview.

• 2:24:32Jordi Hays?

  For giving us the preview.

• 2:24:33John Coogan?

  And have a great weekend. We'll talk to you soon.

• 2:24:36Jordi Hays?

  Great hanging.

• 2:24:37Speaker 08

  Appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

• 2:24:39John Coogan?

  Before we bring in our next guest, let me tell you about public.com investing for those to take it seriously. We have multi-asset investing industry that yields and are trusted by millions.

• 2:24:46Jordi Hays?

  Soon billions.

• 2:24:48John Coogan?

  Um, I think we might actually have a one-minute break before our next guest comes in. There's no one in the restream waiting room, or is there? No, not yet. So, give us a post, Jordi Hays. "If someone's smart, if someone is smart but has bad aesthetics, normies will not take them seriously. This is good. Aesthetic, aesthetic contains real information." This post is from Defender of Basic. Uh, "That this category of smart people can't read, and if they gain power, these blind spots will lead to their undoing." I completely botched this reading. This is a mess.

• 2:25:23Jordi Hays?

  Here's another one. Alex Danko, uh, Sundar Pichai said yesterday, or a couple days ago, "New breakthrough, uh, quantum algorithm published in Nature today. Our Willow chip has achieved the first-ever verifiable quantum advantage. Willow ran the algorithm, which we've named Quantum Echoes, 13,000 times faster than the best classical algorithm on one of the world's fastest supercomputers. This new algo can explain interactions between atoms in a molecule using nuclear magnetic resonance, paving a path toward potential future uses in drug discovery and material science. The result is verifiable, meaning its outcome can be repeated by other quantum computers or confirmed by experiments. This

• 2:26:06Jordi Hays?

  breakthrough is a significant step toward the first real-world application of quantum computing, and we're excited to see where it leads." Again, see this positioning, right? It's positioned as an internal science project. Of course, he's saying it's a step toward the first real-world application of quantum.

• 2:26:23John Coogan?

  Did you see what Martin Scully said?

• 2:26:25Jordi Hays?

  What did he say?

• 2:26:27John Coogan?

  "Contrived results, still not faster/advantaged." He's so bearish.

• 2:26:33Jordi Hays?

  Alex Danko, though, says, "Okay, I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but why do you..."

• 2:26:37John Coogan?

  Elon said, "Congrats." And I think, I, when I see this, and I see the algorithm, and I see what, like, how they're talking about it, it really does feel like, yes, over the next decade, like, there could be some really, really powerful niche use cases that are extremely valuable here.

• 2:26:49Jordi Hays?

  It's a good, it's a good, it's a good quantum computer, sir.

• 2:26:51John Coogan?

  I agree, I agree.

• 2:26:52Jordi Hays?

  One more post before we go to our next.

• 2:26:54John Coogan?

  Wait, did you want to, did you want to explain why quantum computers look like that? Because that- That's what Alex Danko is asking, and there is an answer. It's because they're, they need to be cooled, they need to be really cold. And so you have to hang it instead of attaching it to the floor. Each layer of the chandeliers colder down to the last one where the quantum computation is taking place. And so you see this chandelier funneling smaller and smaller and colder and colder until you get to the very, very tip. I don't know. Interesting. Well, we have our next guest in the Restream waiting room. Let's bring him in to the TBB and Ultra Dome. How are you doing, Burke?

• 2:27:34Jordi Hays?

  Okay, welcome.

• 2:27:35John Coogan?

  Good to see you.

• 2:27:36Speaker 09

  Hi guys.

• 2:27:37Jordi Hays?

  What's happening? Huge, huge day.

• 2:27:39John Coogan?

  Congratulations on all the news.

• 2:27:40Jordi Hays?

  In, in, uh, in the fall ecosystem.

• 2:27:43Speaker 09

  Thank you, thank you. So today we are, um, doing our inaugural generative media conference. I'm in Ferry Building.

• 2:27:51John Coogan?

  Very cool.

• 2:27:51Speaker 09

  You can probably tell. Beautiful venue. Um, yeah, it's, it's a big milestone for us. It's, it's, you know, we, we thought that generative media really needs its, its space. And, you know, we need to, we need to talk about it because it's, it's an extremely big deal. And, you know, we thought we would, we would honor this, this, um, industry by, by, you know, throwing, throwing a big, big event where foundational models are coming here. People from the industry are here. Jeffrey Katzenberg, actually.

• 2:28:24Jordi Hays?

  No, legend.

• 2:28:25John Coogan?

  Very cool.

• 2:28:26Speaker 09

  That was, that was pretty awesome. Yeah.

• 2:28:27John Coogan?

  Yeah. So what, uh, what, what are, what are attendees trying to, uh, understand or, or advance?

• 2:28:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. What are people talking about?

• 2:28:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:38Speaker 09

  Yeah. Um, there is, there is like, I mean, this is, this is becoming a full industry, right? So it's, it's many, there's many kinds of people here. So there's people from foundational model labs. So they're trying to build these models, compete against the big, big giants, right? And it's a very diverse space. So unlike the language model market where you have a few big, big winners. Here we're seeing like hundreds of companies building models, customizing models and, and using, you know, their, their customers are using in production. So there's foundational models. There's people from the industry. So media, we had a talk from a architecture firm that's using generative media in production.

• 2:29:20Speaker 09

  And, and yeah, like early stage founders and, you know, even, even like some big Hollywood. Hollywood names, like big, big production studios.

• 2:29:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, are people focused now on, on benchmarks, evals, certain niche capabilities? Like, we're starting to see this like kind of re-fragmentation, I feel like, where Sora can do cameos and VO3 could do audio and certain Crayah can do lip syncing well. And there's all these different sub-applications where it feels like if you're a buyer of generative media, of tokens, or I don't know, frames, I guess, you are really looking for the right tool for the job and you might have to kind of go through the haystack to find the needle that fits your use case specifically. Is that the general vibe?

• 2:30:12Speaker 09

  Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think there is, there's definitely alignment on how these models are getting more specialized. On one hand, there's, there's general models, like I think VO is, is pretty general, right? Like it can do many things. But on another hand, you need, you need more and, you know, what we're hearing from people is you need more and more specific workflows. So workflows is a very big topic and we are now in the like kind of usefulness, utility phase of, of this whole space where like, there we go.

• 2:30:42Jordi Hays?

  Let's give it up for utility and usefulness. Love it.

• 2:30:46Speaker 09

  So, so, so we're, what we're seeing is, you know, people are building these, building this tooling, right? So they're, they're building the application layer such that, you know, these downstream users from marketing, you know, architecture, gaming, movies, so that like creatives can start using this technology.

• 2:31:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:06Jordi Hays?

  How, how's, what's your view on how Hollywood has most recently been kind of navigating Gen AI? We've heard from folks in the industry that people are experimenting with it, but they're hesitant to even talk about it too much because they get so much blowback from, you know, we're here down in LA, there's a lot of people that aren't excited about Gen AI for a number of reasons. But how, how do you see Hollywood navigating this current moment?

• 2:31:32Speaker 09

  Yeah, I mean, we're definitely feeling like a shift in the vibes. So they're definitely, they're definitely turning towards the side of like experimentation. I know that there's like a few good projects in the pipeline that are gonna come out. I think we're gonna see this shift happening towards the end of the year, early next year. And yeah, we see, we see very big players actually embracing this tech. And, and yeah, it's gonna be.

• 2:32:00Jordi Hays?

  Somebody in the chat.

• 2:32:01Speaker 09

  Same here next year.

• 2:32:02Jordi Hays?

  Somebody in the chat just said you guys should get Hollywood on as a guest.

• 2:32:05Speaker 09

  We should.

• 2:32:05Jordi Hays?

  We'll work on that. Uh, another question I had is, uh, I, I don't know how much you can share, but what, what is, uh, what's Sora 2 adoption? Been like so far, how quickly are, are a number of different? Application layer companies kind of, um, turning it on and, and, and, uh, burning up the GPUs?

• 2:32:24Speaker 09

  Yeah, um, it's been, we, we don't have like full visibility into Sora's adoption, but from what we know is it is a very good model for like a very certain, um, aesthetic, right? Like you can probably tell that it is extremely fine tuned on, you know, social content.

• 2:32:43Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 2:32:43Speaker 09

  Uh, so, so yeah, it, it, it is getting, it is getting, uh, amazing adoption, but, but you know, this space is virtually infinite, like there, there's literally all sorts of things you can do. That's, that's why we believe like this, we were just in the beginning. And yeah, it's just, it's just a form factor, right? And, and, um, it, it's just one kind of, uh, model. We think there's gonna be many, many versions.

• 2:33:08Jordi Hays?

  Totally.

• 2:33:08Speaker 09

  Can you walk me through?

• 2:33:09Jordi Hays?

  My, my immediate reaction to Sora is like, I could see this being used for like very specific. If you wanted to generate UGC style ads, it could probably do.

• 2:33:18Speaker 09

  Sure.

• 2:33:18Jordi Hays?

  A, a decent job at that, but that same application would also wanna generate ads in a bunch of different styles, right? Cinematic styles, things like that.

• 2:33:27Speaker 09

  Exactly. And, and yeah, like, don't get, don't get me wrong. I think, you know, that model, like it's, it's, it's, it's the pre-training versus post-training. Like it's, you know, I would speculate that it is really fine tuned on this like social use case. But that doesn't mean that there is no, you know, amazing model in, in, in the, in the back of it. So, so technically they can crank out different things for different use cases.

• 2:33:49Jordi Hays?

  Totally.

• 2:33:50Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 2:33:51John Coogan?

  Uh, yeah, I mean, I could go so much deeper on all this and all the like comparisons of all the models. Uh, we'll have to have you back and because I know you're, uh, at your conference and obviously need to get back and meet customers and whatnot. But thank you so much for taking the time to stop by.

• 2:34:05Speaker 10

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:34:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, excited to have a bunch more folks on in the next 30 minutes or so.

• 2:34:10John Coogan?

  Yeah, this will be great. Uh, we'll talk to you soon.

• 2:34:12Jordi Hays?

  Great to see you.

• 2:34:13Speaker 10

  Have a great weekend. These guys.

• 2:34:14John Coogan?

  Uh, let me tell you about adquick.com, out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to headaches of out of home advertising. Only AdQuick combines technology, out of home expertise, and data to enable efficient, seamless ad buying across the globe. Our next guest is Glenn Solomon from Notable. We'll bring him in to the TV Pin Ultra Dome.

• 2:34:31Jordi Hays?

  What's going on?

• 2:34:35Jordi Hays?

  Can you hear me? I cannot hear you. We don't have audio yet. No audio. I'm sure the production team is working on it. I will tell you when I can hear you. So just, uh, I guess, keep chatting, I guess. Still, still, nothing. How are we doing, folks? We got nothing. We got nothing coming through. AGI is just days away and, uh, we need AGI to put some resources towards, uh, technical difficulties for, for podcast live streamers.

• 2:35:13Jordi Hays?

  Um, anyways, we will, I'll kill time. Uh, here's a, here's a post yesterday.

• 2:35:18Speaker 10

  Okay, sounds good.

• 2:35:19Jordi Hays?

  Okay, I think we got some, we got something coming through.

• 2:35:21Speaker 10

  Can you hear me?

• 2:35:21Jordi Hays?

  I can hear you.

• 2:35:23Speaker 10

  Ah, Jordy, great. This is Glenn.

• 2:35:25Jordi Hays?

  It's so great to see you, Glenn. Uh, an amazing, amazing setup here. Are you, uh, did you already give a talk? Are you, are you going to give a talk or are you just, uh,

• 2:35:35Speaker 10

  I've been in the, I've been, I've been enjoying the, uh, the amazing, uh, talk so far and I'm excited to talk to you about them.

• 2:35:43Jordi Hays?

  Amazing. Uh, why don't you give a quick intro on, on yourself and your firm and then, and then we can get into reactions from the event.

• 2:35:51Speaker 10

  Sure, yeah. So I'm Glenn Solomon, managing partner at Notable Capital. We've been in business for 25 years. We're a global venture capital firm focused on software infrastructure. And one of the key personas we focus on is a software developer. We backed companies over the years like Vercel recently, HashiCorp, some great businesses that we've been very fortunate to work with.

• 2:36:17Jordi Hays?

  Wait, what was the exact moment that you founded the firm?

• 2:36:22Speaker 10

  25 years ago, 2000.

• 2:36:24Jordi Hays?

  No, I know, but like, what was it, 2000, was it March? Was it during the crash? Like, when, when, do you remember the month specifically?

• 2:36:33Speaker 10

  It was February, so early in the year.

• 2:36:37Jordi Hays?

  So you basically went on a roller coaster. You started up here and then just...

• 2:36:41Speaker 10

  A little known fact, though, it's actually good to found a firm right about then, because you don't get in...

• 2:36:46Jordi Hays?

  You can deploy, you can deploy in the Valley of Despair.

• 2:36:50Speaker 10

  Exactly, exactly.

• 2:36:51Jordi Hays?

  That is a great, great timing, great timing. Amazing. So, yeah, walk us through some reactions to the event so far.

• 2:36:59Speaker 10

  So, you know, it's been really cool to be here. It's the first generative media conference that Fowls put on, really their first user conference. And there's about 300 people here, and you can just feel the energy amongst the developers who are building all kinds of amazing applications using generative media. It kind of reminds me, I was lucky enough to invest early in HashiCorp. In 2016, I was at their first user conference up in Portland, and there was 150 people in the room. Basically, anybody who wanted to attend could. And it was, you know, a bunch of very intrepid DevOps professionals who saw the future somewhat similar to HashiCorp. And the reason I mention is because four or five

• 2:37:39Speaker 10

  years later, at their user conference in San Francisco, there was 5,000 people. And I think this is the start of something very similar. We're going to see this industry grow dramatically over the next several years, and it would not surprise me if, you know, Dreamforce look out, this, this, generative media conferences could be really big over the next several years.

• 2:38:01Jordi Hays?

  I believe it. What, Burke was saying there's an architecture firm talking at the event on how they're using. What are some of the other, maybe more like edge cases, niche use cases that you're seeing?

• 2:38:15Speaker 10

  Well, definitely advertising, marketing, you know, your feed on social media, entertainment, education, all of these things are, people spend dramatic amounts of money today, hundreds of billions of dollars on content production for traditional media. I think that's all going to shift over time. And we're just starting to see the early days of that, but clearly there's going to be a shift because using generative media, you can move much quicker, it's less expensive, you could be much more targeted in what you do. So I think all those industries are in experimentation mode, maybe first, second inning, but it's early. But one of the things I heard about today that I thought was really interesting

• 2:38:58Speaker 10

  is really the net new applications that I think are going to come as well, things that don't exist yet today. A good maybe harbinger of that would be, like if you've ever been to the Sphere in Las Vegas, you know, you look at the geometry there and the just sheer size of the place. Traditional media couldn't really solve that problem and create an immersive experience. And so that's a great area where generative media is doing something that couldn't be done in the past. So I think you're going to see both replacement and over time net new. And I think that's why people are so excited about what's going on here today.

• 2:39:31Jordi Hays?

  Makes a lot of sense.

• 2:39:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, that's amazing. Well, thank you so much for stopping by the show. We'd love to talk to you more, but.

• 2:39:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the first guest appearance from a podium.

• 2:39:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:43Speaker 10

  Hey, I'm a longtime listener, first time caller. This has been awesome. Thank you, guys.

• 2:39:50Jordi Hays?

  Amazing. Well, come back on again soon and have fun out there. Give our best to everybody at the event.

• 2:39:54John Coogan?

  We will.

• 2:39:54Speaker 10

  Will do. Thanks.

• 2:39:55Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.

• 2:39:56John Coogan?

  We'll talk to you soon. Let me tell you about Bezzle. You gotta go to capbezzle.com.

• 2:40:03Jordi Hays?

  Just do it.

• 2:40:05John Coogan?

  You need your Bezzle concierge. They're available now to source you any watch on the planet.

• 2:40:10Jordi Hays?

  I'm really pushing John to get the Cubitus. I think it's time. Green dial. I wish I had more time to give you the full, my full case for it, but we will move on to our next guest.

• 2:40:24John Coogan?

  We have Diego Rodriguez from Cray in the restroom waiting room. Welcome to the show, Diego. How are you doing?

• 2:40:28Jordi Hays?

  Welcome. What's happening?

• 2:40:31John Coogan?

  Talk to me about about the AI suite for creatives. I'm particularly interested in this debate between like chopping wood and creating new workflows for specific video generation or AI use versus like trying to instantiate some things on the fly. I always see these like, I made this amazing AI video. Here's how I did it. And it's piecing together like three different steps where they fine tuned on their face and they did a special model that had a beginning and an ending frame. And then they did some sort of control net on top of it and then they up res it. And how are you thinking about actually piecing all the different tools together in a way that someone? It's like the final UI effectively.

• 2:41:16Speaker 11

  I mean, like, I mean, I'm here like at the Fall Conference and I might talk actually exactly about that.

• 2:41:22John Coogan?

  Okay, perfect.

• 2:41:23Speaker 11

  I am, I don't know, it's kind of frustrating to see people be like this AI generated, this is not. Dude, it's a new medium.

• 2:41:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:30Speaker 11

  Like, it's just a new medium. So like, whenever I see a frame by say now Hollywood is starting to toy around with tools. Like, the best people there, you're like, like, you, you, you don't ask them like, is they use Photoshop or After Effects or Houdini or AI? He's like, dude, all of them. Like, this was even a dialogue when we were discussing about a certain idea. That's also part of the process of making things.

• 2:41:53John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:41:53Speaker 11

  I think we're far from automating like true storytelling, which is why we need tools. Where's the pencil for the latent space? That's what we need.

• 2:42:03John Coogan?

  Yeah. How do you think about

• 2:42:08John Coogan?

  what the actual product looks like that people want at each level of scale? Like enterprise is fine with APIs and they will have a team of software engineers like build the tools exactly that they need. Then the prosumer might be fine with a node based workflow or something that's a little bit more, you know, fine tuning parameters under the hood. But then they want something that's maybe repeatable that they can jump in and out of. And then the final consumer wants like, you know how you see those like dedicated app just for it's like just the face swapping app? And like face swapping is obviously a feature that should exist in the node-based workflow in Creo, in Prosumer, in a professional tool.

• 2:42:51John Coogan?

  So how do you think about like checking the box on all the features out of the gate versus leaving enough flexibility that your users might get lost because you don't hand hold as much?

• 2:43:05Speaker 11

  I think that like these barriers are, let's call them vestigial concepts from our culture. I think like we think those barriers are there because of where we come from, which is like, okay, we used to have the professional who goes to Photoshop and everyone that is maybe doesn't need as much control goes to something like Canva. And then if you're just a random person that is toying around with making stuff, then you use a certain iOS app or whatever. But the reality is that a lot of these barriers used to just be APIs, like a certain plugin or a certain API call or whatever. And with vibe coding, they are blurring out now.

• 2:43:46Speaker 11

  So I actually see consumers who ask me, can you get an API because I've coded some things? And then I actually get enterprises being like, oh, your UI is actually one of the best ones and that's why we are doing these things. So I think that this is a time full of uncertainty and when you have uncertainty, the only thing that can ground you is first principles. So you have to go back to Monke, go back to the beginning, like think about what is truly true and what is just marketing fluff. So the way I'm thinking.

• 2:44:16John Coogan?

  Do you think images and video are two separate products long-term? Like Premiere Pro is a different product than Photoshop. They are different and even Lightroom is another product in the Adobe ecosystem. I can imagine you can, I mean, it's just pixels. You can clearly put all the tools in one bucket, one app. Adobe didn't. Is that vestigial or will we see another separation?

• 2:44:41Speaker 11

  I think separation will be here in the short term and midterm because.

• 2:44:51Speaker 11

  You can argue that like as we advance, there's actually even more separation, right? Like at first, books were only in a certain way and now there's a myriad of formats and images. And like, can you even do books for like, you know, for kids where they even have things inside? That they like animations even. So I feel like as we push the medium, and by medium, I mean the latent space forward, we will actually realize that we need way more tools than we thought we needed. And that's why we're starting, like we're seeking like this can be an explosion of like, okay, we have ControlNet, we have ConfyUI, we have Creo, but then in Creo you can like, jump in between tools and then you can use say an image model within many tools.

• 2:45:32John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:45:32Speaker 11

  And that's the key part, which is you said, it's just pixels. And it's like, yeah, but guess what? Like a song can be represented as pixels if you have a like a certain frequency diagram. It's just pixels too. So at the end of the day.

• 2:45:44John Coogan?

  Sheet music, you're saying sheet music, that's pixels.

• 2:45:47Speaker 11

  Yeah, so what we have at the end of the day is a technology that can understand like information in almost its more distilled form.

• 2:45:55John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:45:56Speaker 11

  That technology can move around products, but the product will be different. However, they will all use that same technology. And that's what we're seeing. Node-based tool, image tool, iOS app all connect to our image model. For instance, with Creo one or Flux context or whatever, but it's different applications.

• 2:46:12John Coogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, fascinating.

• 2:46:14Jordi Hays?

  We like to hit the gong for guests.

• 2:46:16John Coogan?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:46:16Jordi Hays?

  How many, how many users does Creo have? What's the latest, what's the latest?

• 2:46:20John Coogan?

  Give us some stats, give us some numbers. What you got?

• 2:46:22Jordi Hays?

  The big numbers.

• 2:46:23Speaker 11

  Last time I checked signups, it was like over 30 million.

• 2:46:26John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 2:46:29John Coogan?

  Congratulations.

• 2:46:31Speaker 11

  And.

• 2:46:31Jordi Hays?

  That's wild.

• 2:46:32Speaker 11

  Yeah. And then but like, I'm actually more interested on participating in like the enterprise because I'm starting to see true business adoption. And that's where it starts to be like.

• 2:46:45John Coogan?

  Very auspicious gong ringing. I don't know if you can hear it, but the gong is still ringing for you.

• 2:46:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:51John Coogan?

  Something about how I hit it. It's very good. It's a very good omen. It was very good omen for your company. Uh, 30 million, you know, we, I just want to take a second because we get lost in like the AI boom or whatever that, uh, 30 million is so many. That is such a huge, that is such a huge impact to have on a product that you've built. So sincerely, like massive congratulations. That's very, very big. I, I'm, and I feel like, uh, you know, Sam Altman's out there throwing around trillions and stuff and we lose track of the fact that, uh,

• 2:47:20Jordi Hays?

  30 million.

• 2:47:21John Coogan?

  30 million is a lot of users and, and congratulations. That's very great. Uh, thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 2:47:26Jordi Hays?

  Have fun at the event.

• 2:47:28John Coogan?

  Yep. We'll talk to you soon.

• 2:47:29Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.

• 2:47:30John Coogan?

  Have a good one. Uh, up next we have Justine Moore from A16Z. Is it her second time on the show?

• 2:47:36Jordi Hays?

  Dylan, Dylan in the chat says I felt that gong hit in my soul.

• 2:47:39John Coogan?

  That gong hit was wild. Uh, Justine Moore, can you hear us? We're back on the podium. Hopefully we have audio. Fantastic.

• 2:47:47Jordi Hays?

  Here we go. Loud and clear.

• 2:47:48Justine Moore?

  I'm here. It's great to be back, guys.

• 2:47:50John Coogan?

  Fantastic. Uh, what is, uh, what, what is new from you?

• 2:47:55Jordi Hays?

  Wait, wait, wait. Open, open screen time. I want to know how much Sora.

• 2:48:00John Coogan?

  This is a good question.

• 2:48:02Jordi Hays?

  Let's see it. Let's see it.

• 2:48:04John Coogan?

  We know she loves slop.

• 2:48:06Justine Moore?

  This is not going to be super impressive because I mostly use Sora on desktop.

• 2:48:10John Coogan?

  Okay, okay.

• 2:48:12Jordi Hays?

  Desktop user.

• 2:48:13Justine Moore?

  I would, I would guess it's, if I had to guess, it's probably like 15 minutes a day.

• 2:48:18John Coogan?

  15 minutes.

• 2:48:18Jordi Hays?

  Okay, in the feed, in the feed or making?

• 2:48:21John Coogan?

  Making stuff, right?

• 2:48:22Justine Moore?

  Um, I think, I like the phone. I, okay, when I do it on the phone, I like to scroll through the feed and see what other people are making. On desktop, there's a lot more controllability with like the storyboard and stuff like that. And you can do landscape as well.

• 2:48:36John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:48:36Jordi Hays?

  Power.

• 2:48:37John Coogan?

  Do you feel like you've, you've given Sora the app enough data that you're actually getting fine-tuned recommendations? Or are you just seeing the cream of the crop because there isn't enough to give you specific things that you like? How, what's the, take the temperature on the feed. You know what I'm talking about, right?

• 2:48:54Justine Moore?

  I think it is not yet enough content to be able to have a very personalized feed for everyone.

• 2:49:00John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 2:49:00Justine Moore?

  But I'm not sure because I haven't seen anyone else's feed.

• 2:49:04John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 2:49:04Justine Moore?

  So they might be super different.

• 2:49:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, because like if I go on TikTok and I say I like car videos and you go on TikTok and you say you like boat videos like pretty quickly, we're both going to just get unlimited cars and no boats and vice versa.

• 2:49:17Justine Moore?

  Yes.

• 2:49:17John Coogan?

  Um, interesting. Uh, how are you thinking about the, we were just talking to Cray about this, like winning in the application layer for creativity? Like Sora is a creative tool you can create on desktop with the storyboard. There's, there's this world where we wind up with one app that instantiates UI on the fly, lets you do everything. There's another one where we see even more bifurcation, just like we have Lightroom and Photoshop and Premiere and After Effects. We could wind up with 20 apps for individual little fine tune a face, upres over here. How do you think it's going to play out?

• 2:49:53Justine Moore?

  Yeah, it's a great question. I think, um, honestly, at the beginning of the wave, we thought maybe there'd be a little bit more concentration than there has been. The market just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And we keep seeing more specialized apps. I think because these creative AI tools are enabling all of these people who couldn't create content before to make content for the first time. And so that unlocks a bunch of different verticals who weren't using creative tools much before. So my guess is like there'll be some kind of horizontal tooling layers, whether they're for developers, like what the folks at Fall are doing, which is awesome. Or for consumers, prosumers. And then I think we're also going to start seeing more vertical specific applications,

• 2:50:37Justine Moore?

  just like we've seen with LLMs, honestly. Like we've seen a lot of for accounting, for law, for finance.

• 2:50:43John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 2:50:44Justine Moore?

  Different industries and different personas have different use cases and workflows.

• 2:50:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I haven't thought about it that way because when I think of, uh, like an AI law firm, I don't think them, I don't think about them as like fine tuning tokens or like running a specific, but it is, it is, it is very much the same. How are you thinking about the mobile versus desktop divide? You're, you're obviously experiencing it on Sora, but. Are you seeing a bifurcation where you might actually back a company that's saying, oh, we're going after mobile gen AI in this particular niche? Or we're going desktop and is that a meaningful designation? Or are companies with vibe coding able to kind of go multi-platform on day one? Obviously, OpenAI was, but they have a lot of resources.

• 2:51:34Justine Moore?

  I think sort of the mobile versus desktop speaks a lot to sort of the user persona and use case. What we've seen so far is that stuff that blows up on mobile tends to be consumer products, where you don't have to put a ton of work into editing the output, into having super long prompts. Things like Sora 2 or like Lenza, if you guys remember, which blew up a couple of years ago now to make these like AI profile pictures of you. I think like true, true creative workflows and really detailed editing tend to require bigger screens. We've actually seen more companies start looking at iPad apps too, which is crazy to say. It's not just like four-year-olds on iPads.

• 2:52:15Justine Moore?

  It's like real, real creative professionals because people love to kind of draw on them. And it's a larger screen that enables kind of more knobs and dials.

• 2:52:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:26Jordi Hays?

  What are you seeing on the monetization side for pure AI content creators? I know you track a lot of these accounts. I'm interested to see if, if some of these, again, like not, not just a content creator that might use AI here or there, but like a new content creator that only makes AI content. Will they monetize via influencer style marketing? Will they go straight to doing deals with the Netflix's or other streaming platforms? But curious what you think there.

• 2:52:56Justine Moore?

  Yeah, it's so early, it's hard to say. I think like how it started was people started growing these sort of AI-only accounts and monetizing in the traditional ways, which was like ad revenue or kind of some share of the views you got on your video, things like that on platforms like X and TikTok and Instagram. I've also seen honestly, a ton of the ways that AI creators monetize is by selling like prompts or courses or teaching other people how to make the same things, just because there's so much demand and most people are not experts at these tools. I think it's going to be really interesting to see like when we start to see more AI native IP

• 2:53:37Justine Moore?

  or characters that can like appear in a Netflix show or have a song that they release on Spotify and they kind of get a cut of the streaming revenue. We've already started to see some of that, like that AI actress. And we've seen some in music too, especially in Asia, but I think we're just at the very early stages of that.

• 2:53:55John Coogan?

  Yeah. Are you, are you losing the ability to actually define a particular AI virality moment? Like the Lenza era was definitely a thing. Everyone had the magic avatars. The Studio Ghibli moment was a moment. Then maybe it was like the Sam Altman stealing GPUs era with Sora, but I feel like we're just now in like the Sora moment and maybe it just becomes an era. But and the Italian brain rot, like are we accelerating? Are you feeling acceleration where you can't start, you can't even track all the memes because it just happened so fast?

• 2:54:32Justine Moore?

  Yes, I used to keep basically this spreadsheet where I tracked like the number of impressions as far as I could guess from like certain trends or launches or announcements or things that would happen. And I gave up on it probably like six or so months ago because there were so many things happening at once. It was like Nano Banana and VO3 and Sora and like two new Chinese models that were amazing. And like the World Labs launch, like there were just 20 things happening like every day. And, and I think the interesting thing about that too is like different people are excited by different things. Like sometimes I talk to people who are really deep in AI creativity, but they're really into one part of it. And so they don't even know about the other, the other launches because it's so hard to keep up with everything right now.

• 2:55:16Jordi Hays?

  They're using the Metavibes app too much. I'm sorry, I don't have time for anything else.

• 2:55:21John Coogan?

  What was the, what was the Nano Banana like viral, like moment or driver? Like what was the canonical like thing that you would prompt that Nano Banana did so well that made it really

• 2:55:33Justine Moore?

  I mean, the the interesting thing about Nano Banana was I think it wasn't just one prompt.

• 2:55:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:38Justine Moore?

  It was a series of them. There was like the Polaroids putting yourself in a different era. And then there was making yourself an action figure. And then one I've been following this week on TikTok is like, college kids are making videos of them like hugging their younger selves from an image that they create. Yeah, like with them and their younger self on Nano Banana.

• 2:56:00John Coogan?

  What do you think of that?

• 2:56:03John Coogan?

  I'm not a fan.

• 2:56:04Justine Moore?

  I think it's not. I mean, don't we all want to hug our younger self?

• 2:56:07John Coogan?

  No, not at all.

• 2:56:09Jordi Hays?

  I'd say toughen up, toughen up.

• 2:56:11John Coogan?

  Now that I'm thinking about it.

• 2:56:13Jordi Hays?

  By your bootstraps. I would, I would make an AI.

• 2:56:15John Coogan?

  But yeah, yeah.

• 2:56:16Jordi Hays?

  I would make an AI video of my younger me picking myself up by my bootstraps.

• 2:56:20John Coogan?

  There you go. Okay, so you know, we're close there. We're, we, we, we, we will be participating in like the next slight iteration of the, of the viral sensation. But no, I won't be hugging myself. That feels very odd to me.

• 2:56:32Justine Moore?

  You can do a new one of you yelling at your younger self if you want. This is a free idea to start this.

• 2:56:37John Coogan?

  Um, but yeah, I mean, a lot of these are, a lot of these are odd. Stephen Hawking at the X Games is odd. A cat

• 2:56:43Justine Moore?

  Yes.

• 2:56:43John Coogan?

  steamrolling its way through a house is odd, but I love, I love most of those.

• 2:56:48Jordi Hays?

  But it's important.

• 2:56:49John Coogan?

  It is important.

• 2:56:50Jordi Hays?

  Humanity needs these videos.

• 2:56:53John Coogan?

  I think we do. I think we do. I think we do.

• 2:56:55Jordi Hays?

  Laugh, laughing is important.

• 2:56:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:57Jordi Hays?

  Laughing is important.

• 2:56:58John Coogan?

  Creativity, it is, it is creativity. Whoever prompted it was creative. I would not have thought to put Stephen Hawking at the X Games. And someone did.

• 2:57:06Justine Moore?

  Me neither.

• 2:57:08John Coogan?

  Uh, what else is, are people talking about? What are the key, uh, like stress points? Are people worried about like AI bubble generally? Is it all just about like, let me find the, the most efficient inference arbitrage or inference provider? The, the, the best AI factory? Like, what, what are the current, uh, discussions? I imagine it's not Doom anymore. That one's kind of moved on. What, what are people talking about at this particular conference?

• 2:57:33Justine Moore?

  Yeah, we actually had an investor panel earlier with a bunch of great folks kind of talking about those sorts of things. I think like the the bubble question is an interesting one. I personally don't think we're in a bubble. I think like just the true demand for the products is massive and we're seeing companies grow faster than ever before and also retain users higher than ever before. A lot of a lot of folks like I'm sure you you guys do have questions about kind of gross margin. I think like we find that margins tend to improve over time as you've seen in many eras of consumer software like Amazon and Uber and DoorDash. Like a lot of these companies were gross margin negative or neutral at the beginning and then

• 2:58:16Justine Moore?

  kind of become more efficient over time as they scale and unlock various network effects. I think where I would be worried we were in a bubble is if the margins were all negative and the retention sucked. Because then it's like you're not actually building products that people want and you're raising a lot of money for it.

• 2:58:32Jordi Hays?

  Or if there was only like a hundred thousand real users or something like that.

• 2:58:37John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 2:58:37Justine Moore?

  Exactly.

• 2:58:38Jordi Hays?

  Which we've seen before in different tech trends.

• 2:58:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, no, totally, totally. I mean, yeah, we just talked to Korea like thirty million users is like very significant like and ChatGPT at close to a billion users like it's just it's just accelerating much faster and the distribution is there. And it's a lot because like Stripe exists like you can just actually get twenty bucks a month out of someone pretty easily and you couldn't do that in nineteen ninety nine. It was just no way. And so you had to say, well, we'll monetize the eyeballs later and we'll do ads and people will pay and it became this kind of weird circular economy. But now you can just be like, how much value am I delivering to your business? Put down your card and we'll pay for it or churn, which is great. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to stop by during a busy conference.

• 2:59:25Jordi Hays?

  Second ever podium guest.

• 2:59:27John Coogan?

  Time chatting with you.

• 2:59:28Justine Moore?

  I'm honored. Thanks, guys.

• 2:59:29John Coogan?

  Yes, we'd love to have you back.

• 2:59:31Jordi Hays?

  Have fun at the event and and give our best to everybody there.

• 2:59:33John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 2:59:33Justine Moore?

  Will do.

• 2:59:34John Coogan?

  And and and just so you know, we're we're coming for your lunch. We dropped our first market map. I don't know if you saw, but we dropped a media. We dropped a media market map. So now we're in direct.

• 2:59:44Jordi Hays?

  Not skit so at all.

• 2:59:45John Coogan?

  It's not skit so at all.

• 2:59:46Justine Moore?

  You know, the competition fuels me, so I'm excited for

• 2:59:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, fire back, fire back with your own market.

• 2:59:54John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:59:54Jordi Hays?

  This is like, this is like a rap battle for people.

• 2:59:57John Coogan?

  It's a map battle. It's a map.

• 2:59:58Justine Moore?

  A rap battle that like five people are interested in.

• 3:00:01John Coogan?

  Yeah, a rap battle for people who know how to read a term sheet or something. Anyway, thank you so much for stopping by. We will talk to you soon.

• 3:00:08Jordi Hays?

  See you.

• 3:00:08John Coogan?

  Have a great rest of your day.

• 3:00:09Justine Moore?

  Thanks, guys.

• 3:00:10John Coogan?

  Goodbye.

• 3:00:11Jordi Hays?

  We got to go over to this post from Marvin Von Hagen, which is one of the most royal names ever. Uh, this, this man is destined for greatness. He quoted the essay that I published yesterday and, and just with two excerpts from my, my piece. He said, "The Interaction Company of California has managed to really break through the noise and deliver a truly novel consumer AI product experience." Dot, dot, dot, nothing important. Don't worry about it. Poké.com itself is a fantastic domain and a name for their business and audience." Just skipped over, of course, the, the

• 3:00:49John Coogan?

  Oh, there's like a little bit of criticism in there or something?

• 3:00:51Jordi Hays?

  No, yeah, I was like, I was criticizing the general sort of like naming convention, but this was an absolutely perfect response. And I really want to have Marvin on the show. So Marvin, let's get you on the, on the schedule next week.

• 3:01:02John Coogan?

  This is, yeah, yeah, this is the nature of working with you.

• 3:01:05Jordi Hays?

  Chef's kiss, a perfect response.

• 3:01:09Jordi Hays?

  Uh, what's going on here? Uh, Austin says, "You should never use an M dash in your writing anymore. You will be a hundred percent be accused of using AI, especially if it's on social."

• 3:01:18John Coogan?

  That is true. I actually recently like today in the, in the newsletter, I used just a minus sign instead of an M dash. And Brandon was like, certainly we can use the M dash here. Like you intended to use an M dash and I was like, no, we're using the minus sign. We're using the wrong thing because I don't want to deal with it's an M dash. You used AI or whatever. So I have completely sacrificed it. But what does Alyssa Pumpkinqueen say?

• 3:01:45Jordi Hays?

  She says, "That's what the, uh, dropping the M dash, that's what the clankers want you to do. Surrender the M dash, but by the grace of God, we will outmaneuver the clanker. Sink our hands into their motherboards and remind them what mankind can do. Let the clanker hold their position. We won't."

• 3:02:04John Coogan?

  We won't.

• 3:02:06Jordi Hays?

  Oh, so good. By the way, the chat, chat wants us to do a conference.

• 3:02:11John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 3:02:11Jordi Hays?

  And Ben Sands says, I'd go to the conference, but we needed a TBN cruise. We, I'm not joking. We've talked about getting a yacht.

• 3:02:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:20Jordi Hays?

  To park in the San Francisco Bay and do a conference there. So I would like to pull that off at some point. And the chat will be the first to know. Ohio has a new bill that goes far beyond.

• 3:02:36John Coogan?

  Banning her marriage.

• 3:02:37Jordi Hays?

  Far beyond banning human AI marriage. The measure would define AI systems as non sentient entities. Strip them of any claim to legal personhood, forbid them from owning property, holding financial accounts, controlling IP, or acting as company directors.

• 3:02:52John Coogan?

  So it's basically game on if we get a humanoid. Like we, it has no rights in Ohio. So if we take it to Ohio, like the unitary is going to be sitting there being like, hey, guys, why are we going to Ohio? You know, I'd love to stay in a different state because I would hate for you to like, destroy me and then face no legal consequences because I have no rights in Ohio.

• 3:03:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, this, this, this Ohio clearly hasn't read less wrong.

• 3:03:22John Coogan?

  It's not, it's not familiar with Rocco's basilisk. Ohio might be the first place that the clankers descend on. And Skynet goes on.

• 3:03:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they really put themselves in the crosshair, the clanker crosshair.

• 3:03:35John Coogan?

  On the aggress, on the aggressiveness.

• 3:03:37Jordi Hays?

  Daniel Tenrero has.

• 3:03:39John Coogan?

  Before we read this, let me tell you about wander.com. Find your happy place. Book a wander with inspiring views. Hotel great amenities, dreamy beds, top to clean, 24/7 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better. What did Daniel say?

• 3:03:48Jordi Hays?

  He says, finally, some good news, which is that hedge fund assets hit 5 trillion with most inflows since before the financial crisis.

• 3:03:58Jordi Hays?

  Great hit, John. Assets in the global hedge fund industry have surged to a record five trillion as investors poured money into alternatives and funds posted solid gains.

• 3:04:07John Coogan?

  Our gong is gifted today. You hear this, right?

• 3:04:10Jordi Hays?

  It's still going. It's still going. Still going.

• 3:04:13John Coogan?

  Is it me or is it gong?

• 3:04:15Jordi Hays?

  Hedge funds saw net inflows of nearly 34 billion in the first three months through September with total returns across all strategies averaging 5.4% over the quarter. So, underperforming the average terminally online zoomer that is just massively levered into the mag seven. But still, still, not so bad as a whole. Cryptocurrency hedge funds posted solid double-digit gains in the third quarter, recovering from sharp losses in early 2025 to bring year-to-date performance to 6.7%.

• 3:04:44John Coogan?

  Can we play this clip of, it's probably too long to react to.

• 3:04:48Jordi Hays?

  Buco Capital, the legend says, "I'm always so confused when Tesla goes down on earnings as the business performance is completely irrelevant to the price of stock." They put up over 1.4 billion, I think, of free cash flow as a trillion-dollar company. So that's good.

• 3:05:06John Coogan?

  They beat earnings?

• 3:05:07Jordi Hays?

  Yes.

• 3:05:08John Coogan?

  The stock went down?

• 3:05:09Jordi Hays?

  No, no, no, no. I think they...

• 3:05:10John Coogan?

  They missed earnings and the stock went up? I don't know. I agree with you.

• 3:05:14Jordi Hays?

  No, he's saying they missed, and the stock traded down, and he's like, "Why is it traded down?"

• 3:05:19John Coogan?

  It shouldn't even matter. It shouldn't even matter.

• 3:05:23Jordi Hays?

  Never bet against Elon.

• 3:05:24John Coogan?

  Let's skip the Dorsey reaction. We gotta get out of here. It's Friday. We gotta start our weekend. Apparently, the sale of TikTok was a pawn sacrifice to open up the diplomatic chessboard. And Rune says, "It's pretty bad that Xi Jinping models TikTok as spiritual opium and feels okay selling it to the West in a revenge opium war setup." For Trump, facing the sale of the high-profile app was a populist victory framed around national security. For Xi Jinping, however, the app was a low-cost bargaining chip. He had privately dismissed it as spiritual opium, according to the people close to Beijing, and viewed

• 3:06:07John Coogan?

  it as easy sacrifice to secure the continued dialogue on China that China needed. That makes a ton of sense.

• 3:06:14Jordi Hays?

  In more important geopolitical news, Justin Bieber is on Twitch. Michael Siebel says, "Almost 19 years after we got started, we finally got Bieber. So, never give up." And this was, I think, my favorite post of the week. It's now been deleted. I won't read the user's name, but I think it's funny. It was a post that said, "I honestly don't care if I get fired. I was part of the illegal gambling ring with Chauncey Billups and Terry Rose here. My name is Andy Jassy and I work at Amazon."

• 3:06:47John Coogan?

  These, like, fake framing someone who did something is so funny.

• 3:06:54Jordi Hays?

  Shareholders are...

• 3:06:55John Coogan?

  I didn't realize that, like, there was a retail army for Andy Jassy that cared about Andy Jassy and Amazon.

• 3:07:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's tough when your stock goes up 20% year-to-date and people are still, like, calling for you to be fired.

• 3:07:10John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:07:11Jordi Hays?

  But...

• 3:07:12John Coogan?

  I think that's a good place to call it. We've had a fantastic...

• 3:07:16Jordi Hays?

  You know where we're gonna call it?

• 3:07:17John Coogan?

  Where are we gonna call it?

• 3:07:18Jordi Hays?

  We're gonna call it with Gabe over at Sora. Sora was dethroned in the App Store by Dave's Hot Chicken.

• 3:07:27John Coogan?

  Play the went-went.

• 3:07:28Jordi Hays?

  And an eagle sound effect for Dave.

• 3:07:33John Coogan?

  For Dave.

• 3:07:34Jordi Hays?

  Because something, their team, I think, is just really cracked, because I don't think this is the first time they've, like, charted number one.

• 3:07:41John Coogan?

  I think most people think that the Dave's Hot Chicken team is, like, one notch above the OpenAI team.

• 3:07:47Jordi Hays?

  In terms of just, you know, product design, growth.

• 3:07:50John Coogan?

  Yeah, just IQ and strategy.

• 3:07:54Jordi Hays?

  AI research.

• 3:07:55John Coogan?

  Research, yeah, these types of things. I think most people think it's sort of, like, you know, a hotbed of the best talent in the world.

• 3:08:02Jordi Hays?

  Absolutely.

• 3:08:03John Coogan?

  So, I'm unsurprised. No, seriously, the Dave's Hot Chicken team must be cooking because something crazy happened in their marketing, because to go to the top of the charts... Even if it's momentum based, that means that they had some campaign that just hit. And it's not like it's the Super Bowl right now. Like, they must have had some crazy call to action to get that app to the top of the store. But congratulations to everyone at Dave's Hot Chicken. I'm a huge fan. I order Dave's Hot Chicken all the time. Maybe I should get the app. I usually use DoorDash.

• 3:08:30Jordi Hays?

  Never ordered it to the Ultra Dome.

• 3:08:32John Coogan?

  No, I haven't. But.

• 3:08:33Jordi Hays?

  More of a weekend thing.

• 3:08:34John Coogan?

  More of a weekend thing. More of a weekend thing. But Dave's Hot Chicken is awesome. Highly recommend.

• 3:08:38Jordi Hays?

  It is almost a weekend.

• 3:08:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:40Jordi Hays?

  Weekend for our, our East Coast audience. If you're on the West Coast, we're gonna.

• 3:08:45John Coogan?

  Continue to lock in.

• 3:08:47Jordi Hays?

  Please stay locked in at least until five. Hopefully, you're not leaving the office at five because it just looks bad.

• 3:08:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:54Jordi Hays?

  It's like you just were hanging out.

• 3:08:55John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:57Jordi Hays?

  Trying to, trying to get the optics in. But, uh, we had a really fun week. Uh, uh, next week is gonna be wild as well. I, I think it's gonna be a magnificent week.

• 3:09:05John Coogan?

  I think so, too.

• 3:09:05Jordi Hays?

  It's gonna be absolutely magnificent.

• 3:09:07John Coogan?

  I think it will be magnificent.

• 3:09:08Jordi Hays?

  And, uh, I can't wait to be back. So have a wonderful Friday, have a wonderful Saturday, have a wonderful Sunday. We'll be counting down the hours until we are going live again on Monday. And thank you for tuning in.

• 3:09:19John Coogan?

  Goodbye.

• 3:09:20Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.