Weekly Recap: Apple Debuts iPhone 17, Einstein of Wall Street, YC Demo Day, Declining AI Adoption

(00:00) - Intro (00:03) - Declining AI Adoption (16:03) - YC Demo Day (36:53) - Peter Tuchman (Einstein of Wall Street) (45:45) - Apple Debuts iPhone 17 (01:08:39) - How to think about the $300B OpenAI-Oracle TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com https://ramp.com/ Figma - https://figma.com https://figma.com/ Vanta - https://vanta.com https://vanta.com/ Linear - https://linear.app https://linear.app/ Eight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpn Wander - https://wander.com/tbpn Public - https://public.com https://public.com/ AdQuick - https://adquick.com https://adquick.com/ Bezel - https://getbezel.com https://getbezel.com/ Numeral - https://www.numeralhq.com https://www.numeralhq.com/ Polymarket - https://polymarket.com https://polymarket.com/ Attio - https://attio.com/tbpn Fin - https://fin.ai/tbpn Graphite - https://graphite.dev https://graphite.dev/ Restream - https://restream.io https://restream.io/ Profound - https://tryprofound.com https://tryprofound.com/ Julius AI - https://julius.ai https://julius.ai/ Turbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.com Fal. AI - fal.ai https://fal.ai/ Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://tbpn.com/ https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  Today, there is a chart that is tearing up the internet about AI adoption potentially going down. This is from the Census. The Census says that the AI adoption rate by firm size, they do this poll every two weeks, and Apollo, the giant private

• 0:28Jordi Hays?

  Apollo management?

• 0:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, Apollo. On their Apollo Academy blog, has a post, "AI Adoption Rate Trending Down For Large Companies." The US Census Bureau conducts a bi-weekly survey among 1.2 million firms, and one question is whether a business has used AI tools such as machine learning, natural language processing, virtual agents, or voice recognition to help produce goods or services in the past two weeks. Recent data by firm size shows that AI adoption has been declining among companies with more than 250 employees. So...

• 1:04Jordi Hays?

  Is that good?

• 1:06John Coogan?

  It's, I mean, I think-

• 1:09Jordi Hays?

  It's good for your job.

• 1:10John Coogan?

  There are a bunch of different reads on this. So, I think it potentially could be good. I don't know. I'll walk through kind of my thinking on it, but there's a bunch of interesting stuff in here. So, the chart's going viral because kind of everyone's been feeling that AI has been like overhyped and like the valuations are crazy. And so people are hunting for top signals, as we have, you know, a month ago.

• 1:35Jordi Hays?

  Top signal enjoyed. We put out, we got to play the video.

• 1:39John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, the hype cycle.

• 1:41Jordi Hays?

  It's released.

• 1:42John Coogan?

  Oh, it is. It is. Yeah, let's pull that up.

• 1:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so let's pull up the video.

• 1:46John Coogan?

  The video that Tyler just posted. Did you post it from the TVPN account?

• 1:49Jordi Hays?

  Yes, I did, yeah.

• 1:50John Coogan?

  Of the hype cycle. We'll play that. But people have been hunting for bearish signals about AI because it feels too good to be true. Everyone's getting rich and you aren't. It has the same sort of economic trends as the crypto boom, as a few other booms. And so, people are hunting for data points, and this is one of them. But let's first review the Gartner Hype Cycle video that we just put out.

• 2:46John Coogan?

  Yeah, so everyone's been hotly debating where we are in the Gartner hype cycle.

• 2:50Jordi Hays?

  See, some people call it the TVP and hype cycle.

• 2:52John Coogan?

  Yes, we'll give Gartner their credit for this one. So people have been hunting for potentially bearish signals, bearish data points. There was that that result from Meter that showed that developers that were using AI coding tools were actually less productive. They thought they'd be 20% more productive.

• 3:13Jordi Hays?

  And I saw something I saw something else. I don't know if this was misinformation, fake news, somewhat real or or just anecdotal, but there was somebody that was saying developers are producing more like a lot more code, but but like an order of magnitude more security vulnerabilities.

• 3:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's something like they're producing twice as much code, but 10 times as many 10 times as many security vulnerabilities. And I know the post you're going to talk about now. It is in the stack, but it's deep.

• 3:40Jordi Hays?

  There's I'm gonna I'm gonna try to find it, but it's it's somebody searched like vibe coding cleanup specialist. And there's people on LinkedIn now that are that are

• 3:49John Coogan?

  This is their brand.

• 3:50Jordi Hays?

  Finding employment around cleaning up vibe coding.

• 3:52John Coogan?

  This is their brand, yeah.

• 3:53Jordi Hays?

  And so if you're worried about losing your job to to vibe coding, pivot to vibe coding cleanup.

• 3:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:59Jordi Hays?

  The bull market. There's always a bull market somewhere.

• 4:01John Coogan?

  Guys, can we pull up the chat on the TV if possible? Anyway, let me run through this. So from the data, the chart is going viral because it's dropping off and it looks bearish for AI and thus for tech, America, for humanity broadly. Everyone is saying, please consult the Gartner hype cycle graph. There is a question on where we are in the Gartner hype cycle. I have been saying that maybe we still have a ways to go up. I can't tell if I'm on the left side or the right side of the graph at this point. Like, I've kind of already been through the trough of disillusionment. And so

• 4:41Jordi Hays?

  When was that for you?

• 4:43John Coogan?

  That was probably twenty twenty four. Twenty twenty four was was when it felt like everyone was AI so insane.

• 4:54Jordi Hays?

  You were you were going like this in the mirror like the Joker.

• 4:58John Coogan?

  A little bit because, you know, AI is so insane, but then, you know, you go back to the chat GPT moment that was twenty twenty three. Uh, Waymo, uh, you know, really like rolling out to generally that was twenty twenty three. There there there wasn't as much, there was a lot of hype, but there wasn't as much like actual progress. It felt like it felt, I don't know. Um, so maybe now we're now we're.

• 5:18Jordi Hays?

  We didn't have five thousand AI agents for blank.

• 5:21John Coogan?

  I don't know, just just as I process the last few weeks, I feel like I'm climbing up the slope of enlightenment. I don't feel like I'm falling down.

• 5:28Jordi Hays?

  Satya posting, red posting and showing how he's getting value across.

• 5:33John Coogan?

  That feels like the plateau of productivity.

• 5:34Jordi Hays?

  That feels like.

• 5:35John Coogan?

  That that's plateau.

• 5:36Jordi Hays?

  Like we're plateauing and we're very productive.

• 5:37John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly, and and even the narrative of, oh, is AI progress plateauing? That's not, is it going to crash?

• 5:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 5:45John Coogan?

  That's not the trough of disillusionment, that's the plateau of productivity. So anyway, people people love to, you know, give their takes anyway.

• 5:52Jordi Hays?

  I think that I think the um, the real, an interesting study, I'm sure there'd be flaws with it, but but if you went to companies and you'd say like, how much would I have to pay you to not use AI for the next twelve months?

• 6:08Jordi Hays?

  Across your entire company?

• 6:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:10Jordi Hays?

  I I think you could argue that like in engineering org specifically in terms of like things like fraud detection and and areas that uh, there's probably a lot of money, but it's very possible that in certain organizations, but then but then you have the question of like, okay, does trans, you know, does like sales call transcription count as AI, right?

• 6:30John Coogan?

  Well, I will tell you, Jordy, because um, ninety percent of American businesses told the census that they do not use AI at all, including transcription.

• 6:41Jordi Hays?

  So they would take a lot of money to.

• 6:43John Coogan?

  They would take a dollar.

• 6:44Jordi Hays?

  Take a dollar to.

• 6:45John Coogan?

  They would take any amount of money because it's all net positive, but there's a lot going on in this data that we should run through, so um.

• 6:52Jordi Hays?

  And I thought I thought I thought people didn't trust data from.

• 6:57John Coogan?

  The census?

• 6:59John Coogan?

  Well, yeah, Arakrazin has a good, a good take about the size of the data set and how spend and where AI is actually having an impact. We'll run through that. But so first off, small firms haven't declined even by this metric. So if you're a firm that has one to four employees, you're a very small firm, you're still increasing in, in, in AI adoption.

• 7:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 7:23John Coogan?

  Should we, should we switch over to these?

• 7:25Jordi Hays?

  By the way, guys, we are testing some new microphones.

• 7:28John Coogan?

  We're testing the mics.

• 7:29Jordi Hays?

  So that we can walk around the old town.

• 7:31John Coogan?

  The boys wanted the, the mics back. They're coming back hot.

• 7:34Jordi Hays?

  Daniel says we can't top till Duarkesh ships, ships his book.

• 7:38John Coogan?

  He already, he already shipped his book, I thought. I, I, I got a preview. It was, yeah, that doesn't make any sense. I don't know. Duarkesh's book?

• 7:45Jordi Hays?

  It's released?

• 7:46John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. That, that came out on, on, on straight press. Like, we had him on the day it was like on sale, right? Oh, maybe it hasn't shipped, but I got an advanced copy. I printed it out. Um, maybe, maybe it hasn't fully like actually delivered, but, uh, the first time we had him on the show was because of.

• 8:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's still a pre-order.

• 8:04John Coogan?

  No problem, John.

• 8:05Jordi Hays?

  Still a pre-order on Amazon.

• 8:06John Coogan?

  Oh, it's still a pre-order. Okay. So, okay.

• 8:07Jordi Hays?

  It's gonna be released on October 8th.

• 8:09John Coogan?

  Okay. So, um.

• 8:11Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Market Nvidia, please don't nuke until, uh, Duarkesh can get the book out.

• 8:17John Coogan?

  Yeah. Uh, so, uh, the main headline number in this census data set is that firms with over 250 employees are declining in their self-reported AI usage. Um, it's not a huge drop. It went, goes from like 12%, 14% to 12%. It's a little blip, but the chart does look scary. We can pull it up. It's like the third slide. Um, so I think what's going on here is the following. Small firms see bottom-up adoption of AI tools. Like, can I literally directly use ChatGPT for this? Like, you've run a two-person company at various times. A lot of times you're just thinking, okay, I gotta, I gotta select an accountant or something. Like, let me, like ChatGPT it, right? And, and, and this

• 9:00John Coogan?

  kind of bottom-up adoption just happens very naturally. Whereas if you're in a larger firm, you're gonna get sold on some crazy AI transfer.

• 9:08Jordi Hays?

  Mambo Jumbo.

• 9:10John Coogan?

  Uh, needs a whole training program and is everyone up to day, up to speed at the same time? You need a bunch of consultants and they sort of misunderstand what AI even is. And they fall into a bunch of weird analogies like we'll hire a hundred AI agents. And like, that's very different from just, hey, Google exists, ChatGPT exists. We expect you to use both of this company. And so this is where I thought the data was really, really, really weird because if you look at the data for ChatGPT adoption, we're way off of what this 10% number is for, for business adoption of AI tooling.

• 9:48John Coogan?

  So, um, there, so this, this data says that about 10% of companies are using AI at all at work, which is crazy because there was a data point back in March that said 52% of US adults use AI large language models like ChatGPT. So think about what that means. It means like, uh, out of a hundred million Americans, there's a hundred million Americans that, that are like, yeah, I use AI tools. Like there's maybe 200 million adult Americans or something and there's 340 total Americans, but let's call it, let's call it a hundred million Americans that are using AI tools, just like generally.

• 10:22Jordi Hays?

  ChatGPT Americans.

• 10:23John Coogan?

  Yeah, ChatGPT Ameri-, what kind of Americans, the ChatGPT Americans? And then 80 million of those are just like, no, not at work though. That makes no sense. That makes zero sense. And so

• 10:33Jordi Hays?

  Doesn't work like that.

• 10:34John Coogan?

  There's gotta be something weird going on with this data and I think it's a matter of the definition. And so the census defines AI is, it like, it makes no sense that 10% of companies would fit this definition.

• 10:45Jordi Hays?

  What did, what did, uh, you said, Ara at Ramp was chiming in on this?

• 10:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. He, he, we have, he has a post in the, in the, in the deck.

• 10:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 10:53John Coogan?

  So the definition.

• 10:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. He says, these sample sizes are extremely small for these large firm breakouts, extremely volatile survey to survey, which is why he's using the six survey moving average business AI adoption is back up in the most recent read. So I feel like that's important. Um, I, yeah, it's one of those things, I feel like payments providers like, like Ramp, right? Would, would have better insight here, just like obviously Ramp is a sample of companies in the United States, but it's out of scale now where they could see like, okay, what percentage of companies are paying for any type of AI products?

• 11:29John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 11:29Jordi Hays?

  That's better than, are you adopt, are you using more or less AI than you were? Last time.

• 11:36John Coogan?

  Yes, yes. Um, the, the question is like, how power law distributed is it right?

• 11:43Jordi Hays?

  And then so, so the ramp estimate of share of US businesses with paid subscriptions to AI models, platforms and tools is forty three percent.

• 11:51John Coogan?

  Forty three percent.

• 11:52Jordi Hays?

  The US government's estimate is eight percent.

• 11:54John Coogan?

  This data is weird, right? Also, like, look at, listen to how broad this definition of like, are you using AI at your business? It's anything in this list, if you're using any of these buzzwords, you count as an AI user. So it should be very high based on this. Machine learning, natural language processing, virtual agents, predictive analytics, predictive analytics, literally just like a linear regression forecast of like, oh, we did one million, then two million, then four million. Looks like we're growing exponentially. Next year, we're predicting that we're going to do eight million. That counts as AI, uh, which is ridiculous.

• 12:28Jordi Hays?

  There's a legend out there that doesn't, that doesn't do any of that mumbo jumbo.

• 12:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 12:34Jordi Hays?

  Maybe they're just considering it, they're doing it in their heads. It's like organic intelligence.

• 12:39John Coogan?

  So, yeah, seriously. I mean, it's in, you can do that in a spreadsheet. Uh, machine vision, voice recognition, decision-making systems, data analytics, just if you're using data analytics at your business, not even like LLM powder. No, no, that would be the next step. Just, just if you're analyzing data, you count. And the last one is image processing. If you're processing images, that counts as AI. And so that's basically any SaaS tool, like any consumer LLM product used by employees should count. And it should be really easy to fulfill this, this definition. I'm thinking of like, if you're using Ramp, obviously, when you scan a picture of a receipt that uses image processing, your business is technically using AI.

• 13:20Jordi Hays?

  You're telling me the people that, that are responsible for the Department of Motor Vehicles are getting into measuring the usage of AI?

• 13:28John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:28Jordi Hays?

  In the workplace and we should all.

• 13:31John Coogan?

  This is incredibly botched. Like, hearing you say it back to me.

• 13:35Jordi Hays?

  But it, but it, but it, but it, but it's, it's, it is really funny because one post like this, it's a timeline and you have people like Daniel, uh, just saying it's over. Obviously he's joking.

• 13:43John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:43Jordi Hays?

  Runs in the AI, runs in the AI. I mean, it's over.

• 13:47Jordi Hays?

  But I am very interested to see the results of hype, hype dot T B P N.

• 13:53John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 13:54Jordi Hays?

  Dot com.

• 13:54John Coogan?

  Go, go fill it out, please. Hype dot T B P N. So I was trying to dig into this more and was wondering, like, is this chart bearish? And I don't think so. I think that there's a big shift that's going to happen. The number of business owners who pick up the call from the census and actually say, yes, I'm using AI. That will go down, but the real number will actually go up. So if you're using Stripe, there's a machine learn, there's machine learning running under the hood to do fraud detection. So you are an AI user, but it's happening at a different layer in the stack.

• 14:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 14:28John Coogan?

  If you use Ramp, our sponsor, save time and money, go to ramp.com. When you scan a photo of your receipt, that is processed using AI. But you aren't thinking about yourself as like an AI user. You're just using software that happens to be AI enabled. And the same thing will happen, you know, with your email. Like, it doesn't matter what email client you use. You could use, you could use Google Apps, you could use Outlook. Like, there's going to be AI baked in there. You're going to be an AI user. When, even when you just go to Google, you're going to see search overviews that are L L M powered. You're going to be using Chat G P T. Like, AI is going to be 100% used. And yet, everyone will say, no, I don't use AI at my company because I'm not an AI company. And there's this weird disconnect.

• 15:13Jordi Hays?

  I use SaaS.

• 15:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, I use, I use software, basically. It's like, it's like, are you specifically a software company?

• 15:20Jordi Hays?

  And that's, and that's, and that's part of the way that people have been waking up recently, being like, wait, AI is SaaS?

• 15:26John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:27Jordi Hays?

  And it's like, has, has been.

• 15:28John Coogan?

  It's the same thing with like, like, non-relational databases, or like, in-memory cash.

• 15:33Jordi Hays?

  AI had to become SaaS in order to destroy it.

• 15:36John Coogan?

  It really, really did. And so I think AI is going to seep into every crack of the small business data, of small business day-to-day operations. But the operator won't be proudly telling the census worker, I'm all in on AI for much longer. I think that trend will continue and less and less people will be saying, I have adopted AI, even though they will have, which is a weird, which is a weird dynamic. But it certainly, it certainly tracks.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  So I'm Bora, this is Jerry, we're co-founders of Reacher, and the outfits are because we help brands reach more creators.

• 16:10John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  And make viral content, help them reach more people.

• 16:13John Coogan?

  How, how, how do you do that? Like, what is the actual product?

• 16:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we build AI agents to help brands find the right creators, personalize the outreach,

• 16:21John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  Get them to respond, pay them, and then also generate scripts and hooks so that they can make viral content.

• 16:26John Coogan?

  We have some lightning round questions. Favorite entrepreneur. What you got? Oh. You go. You can say anybody.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know. I was gonna say Elon, but I think it's Jensen. Jensen. Okay, the first Jensen. Let's start counting them up.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  Well, I'm Bruno. We're building Gauss, a personal AI investment analyst for retail investors.

• 16:44John Coogan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 16:45Speaker 04

  So, you know, B to C, if you invest in stocks, you're welcome to join our platform.

• 16:48John Coogan?

  Okay. Uh, yeah, I mean, there's been a ton of moves in the, in the retail world, tons of meme stocks going on. Is this gonna help me find the next great meme stock or avoid getting caught up in the meme stock?

• 16:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:59John Coogan?

  Stuff. Is it more for the retail investor who doesn't want to get burned or the retail investor?

• 17:03Speaker 05

  Can I tell the apps to not make mistakes?

• 17:05Speaker 04

  Exactly. That's actually our number one use case. We want retail investors to make less emotional mistakes.

• 17:10John Coogan?

  Emotional mistakes.

• 17:11Speaker 04

  So, right now, we're focusing on thesis-driven investors, so not the, the meme stock buyers. Uh, so you have a clear thesis. You want to monitor the market, but you're a busy professional. You don't have time to, you know, keep track of everything that's happening. We can find opportunities. You know, you connect your portfolio to us.

• 17:26John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 17:27Speaker 04

  And we can start giving tailored advice.

• 17:29John Coogan?

  Favorite entrepreneur. We've been asking everyone. Who comes to mind, uh, throughout history?

• 17:34Speaker 04

  Um, I have to say Davi Velas from New Bank. He's an inspiration for me. He challenged, you know, the most traditional industry in Brazil.

• 17:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  Big banks, and he managed to create a, a generational company.

• 17:43John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  I really like him.

• 17:45John Coogan?

  Introduce yourselves. Who are you? What are you building?

• 17:47Speaker 05

  Cool. So, my name's Jason Cornelius. Uh, this is Steve. Hey, what's up, guys? Steve with Percy's Defense.

• 17:52John Coogan?

  What's up?

• 17:53Speaker 05

  And we're building 16-inch missiles to shoot down drones.

• 17:55John Coogan?

  16-inch missiles to shoot down drones. Okay.

• 17:58Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 17:59John Coogan?

  Uh, what, what, yeah, what, what, like, do we not have 16-inch?

• 18:01Speaker 05

  We should have brought one.

• 18:02John Coogan?

  Do we not have 16-inch missiles in the arsenal currently? Is this something that's like, like, we're familiar with, like, the Patriot and then the Bullet?

• 18:09Speaker 05

  How much do they cost and how do you fire them? Yeah, it's a good question. So, there are some existing solutions for, like, the counter UAS problem, right? Yeah, walk through the, well, yeah, walk through the solutions. For sure. So, there's, you know, electronic warfare. Sure. So, GPS jamming. Which is unreliable, right? There's, there's easy ways to defeat them. You know, you can make them. More advanced drone and this is what we see.

• 18:27John Coogan?

  And then you have the fiber optic cables.

• 18:29Speaker 05

  Fiber optics, so this is like already defeating some of those solutions that we have.

• 18:32John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 05

  And then there's like the Death Star laser beam, which is very expensive, immobile, very heavy, requires a lot of power. There's AI machine guns. So like, there's a million solutions and we were.

• 18:42John Coogan?

  Who's your buddy that does that?

• 18:43Speaker 05

  ACS.

• 18:44John Coogan?

  ACS, gone on in the truck, yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 05

  And so there's some really good solutions out there for different use cases and we all have pros.

• 18:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 18:51Speaker 05

  We, we need more and they all have pros and cons and they have like a layered. So some of them like ACS is very short range. Some of them like a Patriot is very long range. And so we looked at it, who's going to fill this gap that's in between? When we don't want to spend a $10 million missile to shoot it at 10 miles away.

• 19:04John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 19:05Speaker 05

  But we also don't want it to get so close to us that it's, you know, right on top of us.

• 19:08John Coogan?

  So what's the, what's the range? It's a 16 inch missile.

• 19:11Speaker 05

  Half mile.

• 19:12John Coogan?

  Half mile. Okay. Lightning round. Favorite entrepreneur. Who do you look to for advice or, or as a role model?

• 19:20Speaker 06

  We're looking at Dino at Sironic right now and trying to match that trajectory, growth trajectory that they're having a lot.

• 19:25John Coogan?

  Introduce yourself for the stream. Who are you? What are you building?

• 19:28Speaker 07

  Yeah, I'm Purnav. We're building Meteor and this is Farhan. The AI native browser that's going to kill Google Chrome.

• 19:35John Coogan?

  Oh, okay. We got the browser wars going. Let's go.

• 19:39Jordi Hays?

  Okay, okay. Meteor, are you guys going after Comet too?

• 19:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, absolutely. Everyone, yeah.

• 19:45John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. Well, what's the plan? I mean, everyone is installed Chrome at this point. Everyone runs it. It's so hard to rip it out. How do you, how do you create a solution that's 10x better?

• 19:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, I mean, we all spend seven or eight hours every day on our browser, right? We spend, we do most of our work on the browser.

• 20:01John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 20:01Speaker 07

  Right? Most of it is redundant work.

• 20:03John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 20:03Speaker 07

  We're saying we can automate all of that away.

• 20:05John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 20:06Speaker 07

  Right? We're saying we want AI, we want to spawn AI agents that work with you as your co-pilot to the web.

• 20:10John Coogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:11Speaker 07

  That can do your work for you. So you don't have to waste your seven, eight hours.

• 20:14John Coogan?

  Okay, but, but like, what does that look like as I use the product? How do you pitch it to somebody who says Chrome works well enough for me?

• 20:20Speaker 07

  Right. Chrome does work well enough for you if you're okay wasting many hours a day.

• 20:23John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 20:24Speaker 07

  What we're saying is we're giving you time savings. It's sort of like, people pay thousands of dollars for personal assistance.

• 20:28John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 20:29Speaker 07

  Right? People pay thousands of dollars for employees to hire, like to create automation.

• 20:33John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 20:33Speaker 07

  We're saying we want to create virtual employees.

• 20:36John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 20:36Speaker 07

  That run on your browser.

• 20:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 07

  Right? And that's Meteor. So like, let's say you want to handle your calendar.

• 20:41John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 20:41Speaker 07

  Right? Just automate all like meeting creation, you know, based on your, your emails.

• 20:45John Coogan?

  Who's your favorite entrepreneur?

• 20:47Speaker 07

  It's got to be Steve Jobs.

• 20:47John Coogan?

  Steve Jobs, okay. Introduce yourself and the company.

• 20:51Speaker 08

  Cool. I'm Has Hobble. I'm the founder of Pally. We're bringing every contact and every conversation from every platform into one place.

• 20:57John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 20:57Speaker 08

  And using AI to help you keep track.

• 20:59John Coogan?

  Who's your favorite entrepreneur? Who are you learning a lot from?

• 21:02Speaker 08

  My favorite entrepreneur of all time, actually would be like Richard Branson. And here's a fun story. So when I was, I dropped out of high school and I remember when I was like 14, 15, speaking to my mom about this, I pointed to him as someone who was successful, who dropped out.

• 21:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 09

  Did he drop out of high school though?

• 21:17Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 21:18Speaker 09

  Oh, wow.

• 21:18Speaker 08

  And then 10 years later, I was invited to spend a week on his island with him.

• 21:22John Coogan?

  No way.

• 21:23Speaker 08

  And I spent actually time with him on Necker Island. And so it was like a very cool full circle moment.

• 21:26John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 21:27Speaker 08

  And he's been a great, great like mentor over the years.

• 21:29John Coogan?

  That's amazing. That's amazing. Introduce yourself. What do you do?

• 21:32Speaker 10

  Yeah, my name is Peter. I'm the CEO of MCPUs. We help people use MCP, of course. We have open source, DevTools and infrastructure.

• 21:38John Coogan?

  I was gonna say, what's the open source strategy?

• 21:40Speaker 10

  Yeah, open source, I mean, is a no brainer.

• 21:42Speaker 09

  The strategy is to open source.

• 21:44Speaker 10

  Yeah, MIT license, everything is free.

• 21:46John Coogan?

  Okay, everything's free and then there's probably GitHub repo that's growing and some measured by stars or something like that.

• 21:51Speaker 10

  7K stars.

• 21:51John Coogan?

  So there we go. I know it. It's here for 7K stars. Congrats. And then at some point, do you want to be more like red hat Linux? Like who are you looking to in terms of well-run? Is GitLab like?

• 22:02Speaker 10

  Superbase.

• 22:02John Coogan?

  Superbase. Okay. Break down, how will their business model look like yours?

• 22:06Speaker 10

  Yeah, because they, they have a bottom up approach. They get developers and then those developers introduced inside the company, the tool.

• 22:13John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 22:13Speaker 10

  And I love it.

• 22:14John Coogan?

  Who is your favorite entrepreneur or someone in business that you look up to?

• 22:17Speaker 10

  Yeah, Brian Chesky, I think.

• 22:18John Coogan?

  Brian Chesky.

• 22:19Speaker 09

  There we go.

• 22:21John Coogan?

  Introduce yourself for the stream. Who are you? What do you do?

• 22:23Speaker 09

  Hey, everyone. I'm Anwal. I'm the CEO of Clozera and we build AI agents for commercial real estate.

• 22:29John Coogan?

  Ooh, okay.

• 22:29Speaker 09

  Nice. Big industry.

• 22:31John Coogan?

  What, what, what?

• 22:31Speaker 09

  Huge industry.

• 22:32John Coogan?

  What part of the commercial real estate stack, the actual transaction, do you sit on the buyer's side, the seller's side, like?

• 22:37Speaker 09

  Yeah, it's a great question.

• 22:38John Coogan?

  Administration, there's so much to that in commercial real estate.

• 22:41Speaker 09

  Exactly. It's a huge industry. So yeah, my co-founder and I, our families actually grew up in the commercial real estate space. Our, both our families are developers.

• 22:49John Coogan?

  Cool. Thank you. Let's hear it for the developer building.

• 22:52Speaker 09

  Developers, developers.

• 22:53John Coogan?

  It's time to build.

• 22:54Speaker 09

  Developers. Usually say that in a different context. Exactly, yeah. But yeah, we, we kind of did a survey of the whole market and we realized actually the most insane amount of manual, tedious, boring work that of course can be automated with AI agents is actually done by brokerages. And so that's where we decided to focus.

• 23:09John Coogan?

  Favorite entrepreneur, someone you look up to?

• 23:11Speaker 09

  Yeah, I think, you know, classic answer, definitely Steve Jobs, like reading that biography in middle school is like, what got me to want to move to the valley, go to Stanford, D Y C.

• 23:18John Coogan?

  The Walter Isaacson book, fantastic book. Introduce yourself for the stream. Who are you? What are you building?

• 23:24Speaker 11

  Okay, awesome.

• 23:25John Coogan?

  How's Demo Day going?

• 23:25Speaker 11

  Yeah. Hi. Do I look at you?

• 23:26John Coogan?

  Whatever you want.

• 23:27Speaker 11

  Okay, I'm gonna look at you.

• 23:28John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 23:29Speaker 11

  I'm Anson. We're building Normal and we're automating hardware testing and compliance.

• 23:33John Coogan?

  Hardware testing and compliance. Any specific verticals? Are we talking like semiconductors, rockets, spaceships, cars?

• 23:39Speaker 11

  Yeah, we're starting with like robotics and drones and other, any electrical components that have like a radio.

• 23:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 11

  Part to it. So that's mostly it.

• 23:46John Coogan?

  Who is your favorite entrepreneur, someone you look up to? Can be anyone.

• 23:50Speaker 11

  Favorite founder?

• 23:51John Coogan?

  Favorite founder.

• 23:52Speaker 11

  Can I say?

• 23:52John Coogan?

  Throughout history, anybody.

• 23:53Speaker 11

  Sir, Sir John A. McDonald.

• 23:55John Coogan?

  Who's that?

• 23:56Speaker 11

  Uh, first Prime Minister of Canada.

• 23:57John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 23:59Speaker 09

  Started a company?

• 23:59Speaker 11

  Started Canada.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Okay, we don't have any buttons for Canada here.

• 24:05John Coogan?

  Yeah, I, this is somewhat un-American. I don't know if I can fully endorse it, but it's, it's outside the box and I appreciate it for that reason. Introduce yourself. What do you, what are you building?

• 24:14Speaker 12

  So I'm Aiden, the CTO of Ethigo. We're doing the AI operating system for local governments, starting with a 311 in a box.

• 24:22John Coogan?

  311. What do you, is that information hotline?

• 24:25Speaker 12

  Yeah, it's the informational counter port to 911.

• 24:28John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 24:29Speaker 12

  So interestingly, only around 2% of cities have a 311 line, even though every city has 911.

• 24:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 12

  And what we're doing with our first product is creating 24/7 call center that's available to anyone from, if you're in San Francisco.

• 24:45John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 12

  Or if you're in like a city of 10,000 in the middle of Iowa, like you should have the same level of service.

• 24:51John Coogan?

  So you call 311, it automatically routes you to your service. And then if I'm in my city, it'll give me information. What, what are the, what's the, obviously everyone knows textbook 911 call. Someone's breaking into my house. What's the textbook 311 call?

• 25:04Speaker 12

  Yeah, I think it's

• 25:05Jordi Hays?

  Is this road open or when does the trash pick up come?

• 25:09Speaker 12

  Stuff like that. Stuff like that. Definitely varies a lot more city to city. So we're live in Florida and we're taking calls about alligators roaming around the city.

• 25:17John Coogan?

  And it can kind of route. And I'm sure you've set the system up so that you can route to 911 if you need to.

• 25:23Speaker 12

  Absolutely.

• 25:23John Coogan?

  Or write to animal control, kind of sit above the rest of the stack of all the different city services.

• 25:29Speaker 12

  Yeah. And that's kind of why we started with this is because it gives us a really great insight into what are the calls and services that the city is providing. So now we can go down and actually handle these workflows end to end with our agents.

• 25:40John Coogan?

  Who is your favorite entrepreneur of all time? Someone you look to for advice?

• 25:44Speaker 12

  Um, Peter Thiel.

• 25:48John Coogan?

  First person to see PT. So yeah, why, why is this sitting here? What do you do? Introduce yourself. Who are you?

• 25:55Speaker 13

  Yes, my name is Zane, founder of Knox Metals and we cut metal. So we're trying to build the most efficient metal service centers in America to empower every factory in America to work with better margins and to move faster.

• 26:05John Coogan?

  Okay, there's a lot of ways to cut metal.

• 26:07Jordi Hays?

  He's doing the meme. He's doing the meme. The reason is re-industrializing.

• 26:09John Coogan?

  Who's your favorite entrepreneur?

• 26:11Jordi Hays?

  Alex Karp.

• 26:12John Coogan?

  Of all time. Alex Karp. We've had him on the show last week. Introduce yourself. Who are you? What are you building?

• 26:17Speaker 14

  Yeah. So hi, my name is Vihar and we're building Orange Slice. We're basically AI search infra to help you find customers that already want your product.

• 26:25John Coogan?

  Who is your favorite entrepreneur of all time?

• 26:29Speaker 14

  Oh, that's a good one. I'm not, I don't actually know that many entrepreneurs in general.

• 26:33John Coogan?

  Someone that you read a biography of or look up to, or maybe just saw a recent interview with and thought was,

• 26:38Speaker 14

  Yeah.

• 26:39John Coogan?

  I could learn something from them.

• 26:40Jordi Hays?

  He's Lisan Al-Gaib of Enterprise SaaS. He doesn't need, it's a blank slate. He doesn't need any influence.

• 26:45Speaker 14

  Well, honestly, I don't think, I, I don't draw that much inspiration just because I think the biggest motivating factor in this might be contrarian. It's not actually inspiration, but like the fear of mediocrity of it not working out has been way bigger for us. That's the biggest reason I don't have that much inspiration. But Eric from the ramp, from ramp, my co-founder used to work at Ramp. So, I mean, they are absolutely killing it.

• 27:11John Coogan?

  Introduce yourself. Who are you? What do you do?

• 27:14Speaker 15

  My name is Arlen. I am building Nozomio, which is an API that gives more context to agents.

• 27:18John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 27:19Speaker 15

  So if you're a cursor user, you can pretty much just go to cursor, index any documentation or codebase, and give it as a context to an agent.

• 27:26John Coogan?

  What exactly is happening? I know cursor does kind of rollups of what's happening. There's some rag infrastructure that's popular. What else is going on in the actual product to unlock value?

• 27:39Speaker 15

  Yeah, so the two reasons I built this is because I was so fucking pissed when I would go to Google, copy paste all the docs and paste them right into cursor.

• 27:46John Coogan?

  We've all been there.

• 27:47Speaker 15

  Yeah, the memory is not persistent, so they will fucking forget that in like two seconds. And second one is that you also pollute context window, which causes context rot. It's actually a study done by Chroma, which is like a Y company.

• 27:57John Coogan?

  Oh yeah, we know Jeff.

• 27:58Speaker 15

  Yeah, saying like post 4,000 tokens, I think, like the performance of any LLMs goes like this.

• 28:02John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 28:03Speaker 15

  So that's like the reason I built this.

• 28:04John Coogan?

  Who's your favorite entrepreneur of all time?

• 28:06Speaker 15

  Yeah, who the fuck that most money, bro? Like Elon Musk, yeah. He's the richest man, bro, yeah.

• 28:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 15

  But otherwise, yeah, Brian Chesky is my goat. I love Brian Chesky.

• 28:12John Coogan?

  Brian Chesky, founder mode. Would you mind introducing yourself and your company?

• 28:17Speaker 16

  Sure. So hi, everyone. I'm Alessia. Vibeflow is the only one solution to build production-ready apps in no code.

• 28:23John Coogan?

  Okay. We've seen a lot of news recently that there's now a whole industry of vibe code cleanup specialists. What's your reaction? Can vibe coding ever make it to production?

• 28:33Speaker 16

  Uh, no.

• 28:34John Coogan?

  No?

• 28:35Speaker 16

  Not now, at least. Like, all the solutions out there are really broken. And they can, they give you this wow effect in the front end, but on the back end side, there is so much to do. And there is a huge need. People are, like, they have hair-on-fire problems and they need to solve these problems. The market is huge.

• 28:51John Coogan?

  Who's your favorite entrepreneur of all time?

• 28:53Speaker 16

  My favorite entrepreneur is Taylor Swift.

• 28:55John Coogan?

  Taylor Swift, that's a good one.

• 28:57Speaker 16

  I'm a big fan, and she is amazing.

• 28:59John Coogan?

  Introduce yourself for the stream. Who are you? What are you building?

• 29:02Speaker 17

  Well, I'm Joshua March. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Veritas Agent. We build AI agents for the consumer lending industry.

• 29:09John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 29:10Speaker 17

  So interfacing with borrowers to help doing sales, servicing, collections for like fintechs, banks, credit unions, services, that kind of thing.

• 29:18John Coogan?

  Who's your favorite entrepreneur of all time?

• 29:20Speaker 17

  So there's this guy Felix Dennis, who was a British entrepreneur. And he wrote this book called How to Get Rich. Yeah. Which I think is the best book on entrepreneurship.

• 29:31John Coogan?

  What you actually do?

• 29:33Speaker 18

  Yeah. My name is Kevin. I'm the CEO and co-founder of the prompting company and we help product that mentioned in ChatGPT.

• 29:38John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 29:39Speaker 18

  Okay, okay. Not just another generative engine optimization tool.

• 29:43John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 29:43Speaker 18

  Yeah, yeah. How do you differentiate? Yeah, for sure. So we play in the infrastructure layer. We're not just creating articles for you.

• 29:49John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 29:49Speaker 18

  Um, we create shadow sites for our companies to, you know, influence all.

• 29:53John Coogan?

  Who is your favorite entrepreneur of all time in history?

• 29:56Speaker 18

  In history?

• 29:56John Coogan?

  I mean, anyone alive or dead.

• 29:58Speaker 18

  Dude, uh, Steve Jobs.

• 30:00John Coogan?

  Steve Jobs.

• 30:00Speaker 18

  As now.

• 30:01John Coogan?

  That's a great one.

• 30:01Speaker 18

  Good answer.

• 30:02John Coogan?

  Introduce yourself. Who are you? What do you do?

• 30:04Speaker 19

  Bob. Hi, I'm Bob, uh, CTO of Embedder. We build coding agents for firmware.

• 30:09John Coogan?

  Okay. Coding agents for firmware?

• 30:11Speaker 19

  Firmware, yeah.

• 30:11John Coogan?

  What, what device are you embedding firmware on?

• 30:13Speaker 18

  Could be done.

• 30:14Speaker 19

  So we do microcontrollers, Linux computers. So think about any microcontroller you can think of, STM32, ESP, TI, NXP, any, any.

• 30:21Speaker 18

  When did you, when did you learn you wanted to do agents for coding agents for firmware?

• 30:26Speaker 19

  Uh, that's a good, good, good question. So I did hardware all my life. I started like, you know, started when I was small, doing robots, moving to more professional stuff in high school.

• 30:33Speaker 18

  In college, let's go.

• 30:35Speaker 19

  In college, yeah, yeah. Uh, in college I built, uh, humanoids and then, um, uh, went to a startup, uh, did med tech stuff and then went to Tesla, worked on robot taxi.

• 30:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 19

  So we just kind of saw it. I saw this problem from like, you know, like a 10% research lab to a trillion dollar company.

• 30:49John Coogan?

  Yeah. Who's your favorite entrepreneur of all time?

• 30:52Speaker 19

  Oh, Elon. Has to be Elon.

• 30:54John Coogan?

  There we go. Introduce yourself. What do you do?

• 30:57Speaker 20

  Hey, uh, my name is Cylon. Uh, we're Kalinda.

• 31:00John Coogan?

  That's a great name.

• 31:02Speaker 20

  Uh, we're basically a deep research for class action law firms.

• 31:05John Coogan?

  Okay, interesting.

• 31:06Speaker 18

  Yeah. Let's give it up for litigation.

• 31:08Speaker 20

  Litigation, yeah.

• 31:10John Coogan?

  What's the secret sauce? Is it, is it just the, the data, the bad data in, bad data out? You gotta get private data that's maybe behind some sort of wall. It's not scraped into the, the pre-training weights of GPT-5. And so you have some cornered resource in the data or is it something in the architecture or something at the UI level? Like where, where's the interesting?

• 31:28Speaker 20

  Kind of like most startups at YC. Like a lot of it sits on the application layer.

• 31:32John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 31:32Speaker 20

  Um, most of it for, for class action law firms is the scale at which they do things, you know, they can have maybe 10 million pages for litigation.

• 31:40John Coogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 31:40Speaker 20

  So with that kind of scale, you can't obviously just toss them.

• 31:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, be a hassle and just click upload another PDF, upload another PDF, upload another PDF.

• 31:48Speaker 20

  Uh, and then the kind of second thing is like, most of the data sort of sits, sits in silos and kind of aggregating it all and making it sort of, you know, comprehensive like a human would is.

• 31:57John Coogan?

  Who's your favorite entrepreneur of all time?

• 31:59Speaker 20

  Sam Altman.

• 32:00John Coogan?

  Sam Altman.

• 32:01Speaker 20

  Just, just because I've met him twice, but he's.

• 32:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, he's a goat. Introduce yourself.

• 32:05Speaker 21

  Uh, we haven't pitched yet.

• 32:06John Coogan?

  Who are you? What do you do?

• 32:07Speaker 21

  Um, Raf Garcia, uh, founder of Kernel. We're crazy fast browsers in the cloud for your AI agent.

• 32:13Speaker 22

  The browser wars.

• 32:14Speaker 21

  The browser wars are on.

• 32:17John Coogan?

  Computer use. So it's API to go and interact with the website.

• 32:21Speaker 21

  Yeah. So nowadays a lot of AI agents, you want to hook them up to the exact same tools that humans use.

• 32:26John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 32:27Speaker 21

  And the browser is one of the main tools that we use on a day-to-day basis. And so we're powering automations in healthcare, fintech, uh, QA. Lots of different use cases that AI is really good at.

• 32:39John Coogan?

  Who is your favorite entrepreneur in history?

• 32:41Speaker 21

  Oof.

• 32:42John Coogan?

  Who do you look to?

• 32:43Speaker 21

  Favorite entrepreneur. I mean, how far back are we going?

• 32:45John Coogan?

  We can go live or dead, literally thousands of years.

• 32:47Speaker 22

  You can go, you can go Addison.

• 32:49John Coogan?

  Somebody has, somebody has mentioned Jesus Christ. Somebody has mentioned Eric Lyman at Ramp. So.

• 32:53Speaker 21

  I mean.

• 32:53John Coogan?

  I didn't make the comparison, but it was made today.

• 32:57Speaker 21

  I mean, cliche, I'll have to go Steve Jobs. I mean, I, I grew up reading.

• 33:00John Coogan?

  That was Jordi's answer too.

• 33:01Speaker 21

  And studying Apple. Like that was my first computer as a kid. So.

• 33:05John Coogan?

  Who are you? What do you do? Explain yourself.

• 33:08Speaker 22

  My name's Adi. I'm a co-founder of Agent Mail. It's the first email provider built for AI agents. The key distinction, there we go. The key distinction is we're not AI for your email. We're email for your AI.

• 33:18John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 33:19Speaker 22

  Whoa.

• 33:19John Coogan?

  Oh, interesting. Like browser use for agents. Okay. I was wondering about this because I go to agent mode. And oftentimes it hits a wall where it's like, okay, it should just now, it should just email the person to actually kick off that process and it can't do it.

• 33:32Speaker 22

  Yeah. How much money are you making? How much money are we making?

• 33:36John Coogan?

  Yeah. Did you share a KPI at Demo Day? Did you share progress?

• 33:39Speaker 22

  What KPIs? We did not, but we love our customers.

• 33:41John Coogan?

  Okay. Okay. But there are, but you see customers plural. So I know that there's more than one.

• 33:45Speaker 22

  Yes.

• 33:46John Coogan?

  Okay. I'm learning. I'm learning.

• 33:47Speaker 22

  But keep us going.

• 33:48John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 33:48Speaker 22

  Did you come in with this idea or did you pivot to it? So we were trying to get rich quick.

• 33:54Jordi Hays?

  Is that why you're, is somebody vlogging out there or is that someone else?

• 33:57Speaker 22

  Yeah, exactly. We're like hot stories.

• 33:59Jordi Hays?

  You're getting that YouTube, you're getting that YouTube.

• 34:01John Coogan?

  I know what question I'm asking next.

• 34:04Speaker 22

  So we wanted agents to go on the internet, make us money, farm free trials.

• 34:08Jordi Hays?

  Oh, interesting.

• 34:09Speaker 22

  Exactly. And we realized, okay, it's kind of hard to give agents their own inboxes. But they should have them. Sequoia is talking about them. Lang change is talking about them. Agents need their own email inboxes.

• 34:17John Coogan?

  Who's your favorite entrepreneur in history, alive or dead?

• 34:20Speaker 22

  I like Warren Buffett.

• 34:21John Coogan?

  Warren Buffett?

• 34:22Speaker 22

  Yeah.

• 34:22John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 34:23Speaker 22

  I think he's one of those guys who's like actually humble.

• 34:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 34:26Speaker 22

  Right? Like, it's not like, okay, hey, I'm worth a hundred million. I think he just genuinely is in it for the love of the game.

• 34:32John Coogan?

  He does. He's there for the love of the game.

• 34:34Speaker 22

  Hopefully one day, you know, I could be like that.

• 34:36John Coogan?

  Who are you? What do you do?

• 34:37Speaker 23

  Hey, I'm all that I'm building Riff, which is Cursor for music production.

• 34:41John Coogan?

  Ooh, that's fun. Are you sitting, so Cursor sits on top of an open source IDE? Are you sitting on top of Ableton or something?

• 34:49Speaker 23

  That doesn't exist for music. So we actually built everything from scratch.

• 34:51John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 34:52Speaker 23

  Uh, trained our own models.

• 34:53John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 34:53Speaker 23

  We have our own like editor. It kind of looks like GarageBand, but you can use AI tools to generate sounds and mess around.

• 34:58John Coogan?

  Interesting. Uh, do you bring your own like samples or do you, do you plug into a sample library? Like where, or is all this, are all the samples AI generated?

• 35:07Speaker 23

  Yeah, we have like a user community of samples, but we also like let you generate your own.

• 35:10John Coogan?

  Cool.

• 35:11Speaker 23

  And also like lots of bells and whistles to make it easier. Like for example, um, you can hum out a melody.

• 35:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:16Speaker 23

  And we'll play it on an instrument for you.

• 35:17John Coogan?

  That's very cool. Favorite entrepreneur in history, alive or dead?

• 35:22Speaker 23

  Dr. Dre.

• 35:22John Coogan?

  Dr. Dre.

• 35:25John Coogan?

  I knew I had to ask you. Anyway, thank you so much.

• 35:28Jordi Hays?

  Oh, it's great to have you.

• 35:29John Coogan?

  Who are you? What are you building?

• 35:30Speaker 24

  I'm John Ferrara. I'm building Juxta, which is a GPS alternative that can track anyone on earth with no hardware.

• 35:37John Coogan?

  I feel like I've seen this on X.

• 35:38Speaker 24

  You might've seen our, we had a pretty cool launch video.

• 35:40John Coogan?

  Very cool. Yeah. Okay. So, uh, how does it work? We, there, there's some company that spun out of Google that just sold that does something similar. It's like magnetics. But what, what, how do you, how are you doing it?

• 35:48Speaker 24

  Yeah. So we basically use simulated technology to basically render any environment using satellite imagery or indoor floor plans into 3D.

• 35:55John Coogan?

  So you're a GeoGuessr?

• 35:57Speaker 24

  You could, you could put it that way. Yeah. We shouldn't have the company that way. Yeah. And then we simulate millions of people or objects moving throughout a space. Simulate their sensor measurements, like accelerometers, gyroscopes, and then train models on that and then basically deploy the software and we can leverage the IMUs, which are like sensors that are already into every phone and most other devices today to track you.

• 36:15John Coogan?

  This is adjacent to that. Like, like I can see you through your Wi-Fi. Lots of people love this.

• 36:20Speaker 24

  If you've seen that film in like The Dark Knight, there's like a scene where Batman.

• 36:23John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah. I know the one you're talking about.

• 36:25Speaker 24

  That's how you can envision it.

• 36:26John Coogan?

  Uh, who's your favorite entrepreneur in history? Live or dead?

• 36:29Speaker 24

  Oh, my God. Um, I would say, I would say, I know the Riff guys just said Dr. Dre, but I'll say Drake because he just came out that Amazon store and Drake's my favorite artist. So.

• 36:39Jordi Hays?

  What Amazon store?

• 36:41Speaker 24

  You haven't seen this? He's, it's, this is his actual plot to take over Amazon Music as a distribution platform, but he's working with Amazon to sell all of his merch and all of his goods through their storefront and basically facilitate all their distribute, distribution through there. So that's my cop out answer, but I just love Drake.

• 36:55John Coogan?

  And we have a special guest with us opening the show. Introduce yourself for the stream.

• 36:59Speaker 25

  Hi, my name is Peter Tuchman. I'm known as the Einstein of Wall Street.

• 37:02John Coogan?

  Einstein of Wall Street and.

• 37:03Speaker 25

  I'm not that smart. I just look at you.

• 37:05Jordi Hays?

  Who was the first person? Did you give yourself?

• 37:07Speaker 25

  Erin Burnett gave me that. And I've been, I've had a show on her show now on CNN for the last four months, ever since the beginning of the sort of mini crash that was sort of self-induced by our, our, the new leader, the new, the new leader, the new sheriff in town.

• 37:22John Coogan?

  The terror tantrum.

• 37:22Speaker 25

  Correct. And she called me in. So she used to work on the floor with CNBC.

• 37:27John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 37:27Speaker 25

  And she nicknamed it probably 20 years ago and called me Einstein and that sort of picked up.

• 37:32John Coogan?

  But your latest, your latest collaborator is not on TV, but on streaming, correct?

• 37:37Speaker 25

  Correct. So I had the fortunality of actually meeting I Show Speed.

• 37:41John Coogan?

  Oh, yes.

• 37:42Speaker 25

  Right? Young 20-year-old kid who I got invited. So there's a team that's doing his stream thing. There's a young guy named Adam Faze.

• 37:48Jordi Hays?

  We know him. He came to our, he came to our event. Uh, we were here about a month and a half ago. He came to a party.

• 37:53Speaker 25

  Really? So Adam, Adam's something special. He found me about four years ago and asked me if I would, uh, let him shoot me, uh, every day walking out of the stock exchange for 30 days and just do what I do.

• 38:04John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 38:04Speaker 25

  And we did this whole TikTok thing called Einstein. Went viral like me and like marching bands from Brooklyn and walking around with a 50 pound Hershey's kiss and doing all this crazy stuff. So he called me last week, asked if I could bring speed to the floor and it didn't seem appropriate at the time. And he said, well, how can I get you to meet him? And I said, come up with an idea and he's an idea guy. So he called me on Thursday morning, said, we're gonna be at the ball. Yeah. He's gonna be at the ball. Would you come and welcome him to Wall Street? I said, absolutely. So they gave me a police escort. I went down there and met this young guy and talked about some of the shtick I do, you know, investing in stocks and not stuff and about, you know, the fact that, um, you know, that everything that his life is

• 38:46Speaker 25

  based on is actually a publicly traded company. And then instead of, you know, buying the next iPhone, he could probably buy a couple of shares of Apple and then maybe, you know, he could invest in his future. Besides the amazing futures stock setup. He received it totally. He talked about it a couple of days down the road. So I got the message across and, uh, and I've blown up. I've gotten literally 200. So I have now, I came in at 260,000 followers on Thursday and now I have 419 and it's counting. And I've got 40 million views on some of my posts, 7,000 DMs.

• 39:21John Coogan?

  7,000 DMs.

• 39:22Speaker 25

  I actually just did a video to answer that. Anyway.

• 39:25Jordi Hays?

  Uh, what was the first stock you ever bought?

• 39:29Speaker 25

  Oh, you know what? I very rare, I did not ever buy a share of stock until recently. I went through most of my career because I'm a registered trader, a broker on the floor. And I'm not allowed to be in a stock for a customer and for myself in a 30 day period. And so I built a trading strategy 20 years ago, trading the S and P 500 based on information that I have as a broker on the floor. And I trade all 347 names in the S and P every day. So basically I made a decision years ago, you know, and also money does a funny thing. If I'm in a stock for myself and I get an order for a customer, it's going to impact the way I trade. And I didn't want that to ever be the case. So I, I do well enough here as a commission broker that I said, you know what? I'll invest in my kids. I'll

• 40:10Speaker 25

  put them through college and they both graduated without any debt and that's where my money went.

• 40:15John Coogan?

  What about some of the first stocks that you were brokering?

• 40:18Speaker 25

  First stocks that I brokered, so we're here, we're talking about IPOs, right? And so, you know, I probably have traded more IPOs than anybody on earth. I've been in the crowd on all of them. I mean, the first IPO I think I traded was LinkedIn, right? It was priced at 30, it opened at 60, ran up to 180, same day. And that was where I got the sense of how amazing the enthusiasm around an IPO, because it's based on confidence. Nobody knows it. And then, and so, I've had so many fun experiences in IPOs. Jack Ma, Alibaba IPO, which was one of the biggest that we've ever had here. He and I bonded, we spent, so IPOs here take probably four or five hours. We just opened Klarna, right? And the process behind that, which we do better than anyone in the world, is the price discovery process, that what goes on. It's kind of like building a building.

• 41:04Speaker 25

  The way you open a stock, the way we open a stock, it takes time, because it's a matter of the information going back and forth. It's a public offering. So the public has to understand what's going on. And so, we go back and forth with our customers. It's kind of like, if you put the bricks and the mortar in the right place, and you, the way a stock opens, if it's built correctly, is going to port the way it trades forever. Now, it doesn't guarantee it's going up, but it will have structure and foundation. And, you know, you go to NASDAQ, nothing against NASDAQ, but if you go to NASDAQ, it's Philly electronic. So it opens when the buyers and sellers meet in an electronic marketplace. Here, it's different. So then, you're going to see what you see in NASDAQ. It'll go up, it goes down, there's no, there are no guardrails, right? So here, things are a lot different. So Jack Ma and I spent four hours together in the IPO.

• 41:49Speaker 25

  He and I are very short, so we bonded on the fact that we were the shortest people in the crowd. We were on the same level, not financially. Because he became a very wealthy guy again on that day.

• 42:01Jordi Hays?

  Someone on our team actually was here for the Alibaba IPO as well.

• 42:04Speaker 25

  Amazing time. And then, we've had, look, then, you know, the whole landscape has changed when WeWork completely blew up the whole IPO market. And that affected-

• 42:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, tell us that story, because I remember the S1 going out, but then, did they get out? What did you have?

• 42:18Speaker 25

  Well, what ended up happening, look, as I said, it's built on confidence. And when, you know, everybody, it was huge money put into WeWork. He was lauded by, now, he came down to the floor many times. Wasn't until the night before, everyone needs to know this, that on the end of the road show is when all the financials are given out to the public. And it turned out that it was all smoke and mirrors and he had spent all the money on prostitutes and blow and that the company had nothing, no basis behind it. And so it was aborted. The deal was aborted and what that did was it changed amazingly enough that one stock could change the landscape of IPOs for years. It literally, everyone said-

• 42:53John Coogan?

  I feel windows closed. That's what closed it.

• 42:55Speaker 25

  That's what closed it. It was the fact that we-

• 42:57John Coogan?

  On Mad Money was saying, "We don't want this. We don't want this."

• 43:00Speaker 25

  Exactly. And so to think that you know something about what's going on and we didn't know anything on literally until the night before made such a huge impact on the market. It literally has taken a couple of years to grow out of that. The night before that, we had had some really wonderful, robust years. Remax and a bunch of stocks, they would open, the huge premiums. We were trading 10 IPOs a day.

• 43:22Jordi Hays?

  Give us a quick history on Klarna, right? Because Klarna's tried to get out a couple times.

• 43:27Speaker 25

  Okay, so I don't know the history about Klarna. All I know is that I watched how it opened here. So it did take a little while. It did open at 52, I think, right? And so it's not trading, you know what? It's hard to know. So what's important about it is where the bids are, where the offers are, and how the foundation looks. So where the bodies are buried within the stock when it opens, right? There was enough stock at 52 bid on balance, which is what it's called. So stocks pair off that are priced accordingly. So 4 point something million shares opened, that means that they were market orders. They had no limits to them and that's, they paired themselves off. It was a 52 bid for 300,000 on balance meant that there was a stabilizing bid, whether it was by Goldman Sachs, the company, or the banker,

• 44:10Speaker 25

  or not. But that's what made it open at 52. If there had been more to buy at the market, it would have opened higher, or more to sell, it would have opened lower. It opened at 52. It did trade up to 5720 on a small bid, 70,000 shares traded up, and then it came in. It's trading at a couple dollars lower, which is reasonable. It does not have the power and the impact that Figma and Bullish did. Figma and Bullish-

• 44:33Jordi Hays?

  So, but all three of these are relatively-

• 44:38Jordi Hays?

  Like, is there a specific strategy that these IPOs have had in terms of like pricing at a, at a, at a, at what feels like, uh, uh, very reasonable, like?

• 44:50Speaker 25

  So you know what, they're, they're pricing it based on the reaction to, to what the, what the investment community is willing to give.

• 44:56Jordi Hays?

  Supply and demand.

• 44:56Speaker 25

  It is. So some of the other ones got priced at 30, there was over supply, over demand at 30, they upped it to 32, 35. That's how it will go. So the night, the last night, when they go out to the roadshow to give out allocations, they will get a sense of where that valuation should be. And then that's where they will give it up. They left some talk on money on the table, as did those other IPOs. The other ones opened at 90 and went to 117. That was, that was bullish. And Figma also traded at a huge premium. My gut is that the sectors that they were in, there's a lot of pressure on this sector right now.

• 45:29Jordi Hays?

  Totally.

• 45:30Speaker 25

  And so those, those sectors were more iCloud and, and, and AI based, right? And so I think that's why there was a little more pop to it.

• 45:37John Coogan?

  Well, we know you have to get out of here. Thank you so much for stopping by the show.

• 45:40Speaker 25

  I'm so glad.

• 45:41John Coogan?

  We'd love to have you back sometime.

• 45:41Speaker 25

  Anytime.

• 45:42John Coogan?

  I'm always here to talk for another two hours.

• 45:44Speaker 25

  Head of the moon, let's go.

• 45:45Jordi Hays?

  Let's head of the moon, I love it.

• 45:46John Coogan?

  We need to dive into the Apple and the iPhone announcement briefly. Obviously, this has been talked about, it happened a couple of days ago. But the, the post that stuck out to me, there were a few about the design, but the big one was that the iPhone 17 Pro now has more graphics power than an M2 MacBook Air. I, I have, I, this is a MacBook Air. I don't know if, this might be the M3 or M4 version.

• 46:11Jordi Hays?

  I would have clocked you as an Air guy.

• 46:13John Coogan?

  I just went for it because I was like, I'm traveling more, I'm less like in workstation mode. And, uh, and so like, let me give this one a try. Uh, and let me see, I have the, I have the M4. So I, I think I have more power here than the iPhone 17 Pro. But even just two years ago, it's crazy to think how quickly the chips are shifting from workstation, which is huge, uh, you know, laptop to phone. And so I wanted to talk about what the downstream implications of this are, and...

• 46:44Jordi Hays?

  Did you, did you see the camera functionality? Apparently if you take a, you can take a photo, holding your phone vertically, and it will give you the landscape.

• 46:53John Coogan?

  Horizontal, yeah. Because again, it's, I think it's for, I think it's a square sensor that's maybe 48 megapixels.

• 46:58Jordi Hays?

  How are you feeling about the, the orange? Do you think this is, this is Tim Cook signaling that he's a BTC maxi?

• 47:05John Coogan?

  Oh, I thought it was him talking, giving a little nod to Gary Tan at my Combinator.

• 47:08Jordi Hays?

  That's one of, one of, one of the other.

• 47:10John Coogan?

  Clearly, I, I.

• 47:11Jordi Hays?

  Had to be one of the other.

• 47:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 47:13Jordi Hays?

  It is the color, the colors, uh, I like, I like orange. I think it's a under, underrated color in general, but uh, still the color options were interesting, like no, Matt, you would have thought they would have done a matte black.

• 47:27John Coogan?

  They didn't do matte black this year. They just, wow. Uh, so they have a silver and a black and like a blue, I think, something like that. I like orange. I, I, I think it's a cool, bold color. I think, I think it's one of the ways to stand out. Um, it's McLaren orange, you know?

• 47:40Jordi Hays?

  McLaren orange, yeah.

• 47:41John Coogan?

  One, maybe it's a nod to that. Who knows? Um, but they're, they're having fun with it. Hopefully next year, the color I'm pulling for, Ramp Yellow. Can you imagine that Ramp Yellow iPhone? Uh, it just might happen. Maybe we'll, we'll make it happen. Um, but on the tech side, you know, people were pretty, uh, like, there were a couple of takes early that were pretty like bearish, like, oh, like nothing changed, nothing changed. And, uh, Ben Thompson summed it up pretty well.

• 48:06Jordi Hays?

  Tim Cook.

• 48:06John Coogan?

  I mean, you had a funny banger about that.

• 48:08Jordi Hays?

  I mean, Tim, Tim Cook posted, um, he did post.

• 48:12John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Jordi Hays?

  The Morning of, and he was like, days like this make Apple, you know, like, like basically like hyped it up as a, as though it was going to be this dramatic announcement and, and I think people were pretty.

• 48:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:24Jordi Hays?

  Pretty let down.

• 48:25John Coogan?

  At this point, i- they, if it's not a change in the overall form factor, like you're going to folding phone, it's not going to be as easy just to talk about completely. Um, but at the same time, it has a bunch of, it, uh, it has a bunch of improvements that I think will have downstream effects that might be interesting and might actually have kind of these like viral moments. And we'll, I'll get into my thesis here. So, uh, it has a vapor chamber in it that allows it to cool. So if you're in the sun or you're running, you know, you're running some heavy duty app, um, you're not going to get, your, your phone's not going to be as hot anymore. Uh, 50% more RAM, obviously that's important for AI. And then they have a new chip that's designed with the LLM transformer, architecture in mind.

• 49:06John Coogan?

  So the Apple A series of chips, they've always been somewhat AI optimized, but, um, more for just broader machine learning tasks. Now they're doing the same thing that OpenAI is doing with Nvidia and Broadcom on chip design. Same thing that Google DeepMind TPU team is doing over at Google and, uh, Anthropic is working with Amazon and Tranium.

• 49:27Jordi Hays?

  Here's my post introducing iPhone 4000, a newer, better iPhone that's lighter, faster, newer and better.

• 49:34Jordi Hays?

  Bye.

• 49:35John Coogan?

  How many, where did this land? Uh, how many likes did this wind up getting?

• 49:39Jordi Hays?

  Six.

• 49:40John Coogan?

  Six thousand?

• 49:41Jordi Hays?

  Thousand?

• 49:43John Coogan?

  And the funny story here, the little inside baseball, uh, Jordy posted this exact post like five minutes earlier.

• 49:51Jordi Hays?

  Well, so, so I originally had this post as a draft.

• 49:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:53Jordi Hays?

  And then I altered it.

• 49:55John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 49:55Jordi Hays?

  And I posted it and it completely, I had a different picture and I did iPhone four seventy two. And it was just completely flopping. It got like one like on like three hundred impressions. Like people hated it.

• 50:05John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 50:05Jordi Hays?

  The, the timeline hated it.

• 50:06John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 50:07Jordi Hays?

  I just went back to this version, posted it and then it, it completely rips. So never give up, never give up. If you think you have a good bit.

• 50:14John Coogan?

  But the, the, the, the funny thing here, I mean, obviously just funny that Apple always comes out and it's like, it's our most powerful iPhone ever. Because it's like, well, if it was, if you, if you guys messed up and accidentally created a less powerful iPhone, you would just keep selling the current one. You're not, you're never going to come out and be like, this year we're selling one, the latest iPhone, but it's less powerful. Because just sell the last one then. Just be like, no new iPhone, because we couldn't make it any more powerful. Yeah.

• 50:39Jordi Hays?

  We actually made it, we made it perfect.

• 50:41John Coogan?

  We made it perfect. So we're.

• 50:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. I mean, uh, what, what are you, are you, how are you feeling about the air? I think that's going to sell incredibly well.

• 50:48John Coogan?

  I don't know. I'll, I'll need to like feel it and, and, and try it. I've never had any iPhone that's not just like the biggest and most of, they're like the, the biggest screen, the maxed out one. I've always gone for like the, the most power, the biggest one. I've actually considered carrying an iPad mini just as a phone. Because I'm so big that my pockets are big enough to carry an iPad mini. Yeah, no, no. I, I was feeling it and I was like, you can get it with cell service. And so I think you can get a phone number on there. And so you can just have like, pull out your giant iPad mini. Uh, but, uh, but I never did that. I've always just stuck to like the Pro Max, the big one, the, the big screen, but it's, it's easy. Uh, the, uh, I don't know.

• 51:33John Coogan?

  The, the interesting thing about the, uh, The iPhone Air was this, you know, the whole computer is in the camera bump now. And basically, everything that drops down is just battery and screen, battery and screen all the way down. And so people are wondering, like, you know, they could clearly take out the battery and the screen and maybe make like a pin. Like, they're, they're getting so good at miniaturizing like what it means to be a computer. Uh, that they can put that in all sorts of different things.

• 51:59Jordi Hays?

  I would be, would have been really excited to have an iPhone that doesn't, that will sit flat on a surface without a case on it. I haven't used cases in, in many years. I just like the, the feeling of the phone.

• 52:10John Coogan?

  It is crazy that they've never tried that.

• 52:12Jordi Hays?

  That's just perpetually like, you know, it just give me like a flat surface. Like, I'm happy for the phone to be as thick as necessary to just give me a flat surface.

• 52:21John Coogan?

  And it looked like they were gonna do that with the iPhone Pro because it has this wider notch. So at least if you did, if you did the notch evenly all the way across.

• 52:29Jordi Hays?

  It might be nice if it's kind of like hanging at an angle a little bit.

• 52:32John Coogan?

  That's fine, I guess. I don't know.

• 52:33Jordi Hays?

  But it's all, it's also so funny, the, the idea of like, you have this incredible camera.

• 52:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 52:37Jordi Hays?

  And then you're just like putting it on, like, I really want you to buy a case. Like, it, it's like, a lot of the product design seems driven by you're gonna buy a case.

• 52:46John Coogan?

  I don't think that's the real, I don't think that's the real reason.

• 52:49Jordi Hays?

  I think it's, I think it's.

• 52:50John Coogan?

  I think it's, I, I think it's genuinely like people don't like heavy phones. And so you have to balance, like, you need, you need the optics of a camera, this, this certain thickness. And then you need the phone to be thin so that people actually carry it around and aren't like, this thing's heavy. Tinfoil hat, yes, it's case. I, I just don't think, I don't think they make that much money. How much money do you think they make from cases a year?

• 53:10Jordi Hays?

  I mean, they're adding, what percentage of people do you think, when they go to that, buy an iPhone, buy an Apple case?

• 53:16John Coogan?

  I would, I would estimate that it's less than 1% of their overall revenue. Cases, yeah.

• 53:22Jordi Hays?

  Totally, but you're talking to the goat of profit maximization, Tim Cook.

• 53:26John Coogan?

  There's just so many other ways. I feel like you could sell 1% more iPhones if you, if you actually choose this odd choice. Because people are like, well, yeah, it's, it's the lightest iPhone. It's lighter than the Samsung one. It's thinner, it's lighter, it's, it, it looks great. And then there might be something about like, the notch kind of holding on your finger. Um, and so you can actually hold the phone easier with that as opposed to if it was just like, fully, fully smooth.

• 53:53John Coogan?

  Anyway.

• 53:53Jordi Hays?

  But, uh, yeah, I mean, when, when you start thinking of, uh, When you start like the incremental sales from like design driven decisions like this, I do think it'd be significant.

• 54:08John Coogan?

  Anyway, huge keynote filmed on an iPhone, obviously a lot less graphics this time around. My take on the iPhone Pro was you're we're getting to the point where you could run an LLM on device and even if it's not Apple intelligence, you know, through that API, just the ability to actually distill something that's like GPT four level and have it be free, not even an API call that you need, not even cheap on a per token basis, but actually just have something that you can basically drag and drop.

• 54:43Jordi Hays?

  Cost of the energy.

• 54:44John Coogan?

  Cost of the energy and no one thinks about it because they charge on the edge because they charge their phone every night anyway. So I was talking to Tyler about this earlier. Try and put into context how powerful a an LLM running on device could be with this next iPhone. Because currently people have done it. I feel like people have distilled models to the point where they can run locally on phones, but if they're not fast or they're not smart, but it feels like we might be at a point where you get like to some sort of like touring touring test passing plus not waiting.

• 55:18Jordi Hays?

  Chad is asking if it's Nika Rosberg.

• 55:20John Coogan?

  It is. It is Nika Rosberg.

• 55:23Jordi Hays?

  It is.

• 55:23John Coogan?

  The former F1 world champion.

• 55:26Jordi Hays?

  And now a capital allocator.

• 55:28John Coogan?

  Now a capital allocator. So yeah, Tyler, what is your take as this gets into people's hands? How solid do you think the actual interactions with LLMs could be on on device?

• 55:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I think I think it's 12 gigabytes now, up from eight.

• 55:44John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 55:45Speaker 06

  So you can probably run like a like very solid, like seven billion parameter, like not super quantized model. We've had those for a long time that are like very solid, like obviously they're going to pass Turing test, whatever.

• 55:58John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 55:59Speaker 06

  You're probably not going to be using it for like doing your your like hard physics homework.

• 56:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:06Speaker 06

  But like most like things that you want from like a non-device model like. Helping look at your emails or like doing stuff that like you would think of like, like a really good Siri product would do.

• 56:17John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 56:17Speaker 06

  I think it's like totally capable of doing that. I mean, it's like, I don't think that Apple Intelligence was bad because the hardware was lacking. It was like, like, I mean, you can, it'll be a little bit slower probably to run on cloud, maybe.

• 56:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, with my experience with Apple Intelligence was it was just just instantiated in very odd ways. It was they they didn't really have like a killer app there. Uh, and it was like a bunch of different things that kind of piped in and you could like, highlight text and then just say rewrite this, uh, all sort of like very incremental gains.

• 56:56Speaker 06

  Summary.

• 56:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, the summaries are botched, but sometimes that's might be the best feature, actually.

• 57:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's a feature, not a bug.

• 57:02John Coogan?

  We just saw, we just saw it in our chat, in our group chat. I posted a, uh, some fake news and, uh, and Apple summarizes it like.

• 57:11Speaker 06

  Gabe says, shouldn't be, shouldn't Tyler be back in school? Gabe, you must have missed, uh, the episode, but Tyler.

• 57:16John Coogan?

  He's taking a gap semester.

• 57:18Speaker 06

  He is riding with us.

• 57:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, uh, and so I, I think it's, I think there's like, there's something magical about getting the ability to inference a GPT four level model on the edge for free. Like you can, you can quibble about the level of intelligence that is, but it is actually too cheap to meter because you won't even have to set up an API key. And so you can vend in a, a GPT four level model and then go viral and not have a bill show up and not need to think about monetization, not need to think about anything that's a drag on your just pure virality. You can have a free app that just grows and grows and grows and figure out the monetization later. And I feel like this sets us up for.

• 58:06John Coogan?

  Maybe something interesting to happen in consumer. We haven't really had that that moment of, you remember the Lensa moment, the magic avatars, you upload your picture and it turns you into Superman or something. And then the Studio Ghibli moment. We haven't had that many like viral apps that are purely based on L L M interactions, like text interactions. There's been a couple like, there was one called like Generative Dungeon. Do you remember this? It was like a dungeon crawler text thing. So it would say like, you walk up to the dragon's lair. What do you want to do? And you could just type like, I I brandish my sword. And then it would say like the dragon.

• 58:43Speaker 06

  That was like G P T two.

• 58:44John Coogan?

  That was, yeah, there was super low level, right? So imagine that plus like, but but you can do it on device at a reasonable level and and you can bring in some other UI elements from the iPhone, bring in the camera, bring in GPS, bring in, you know, all the other tools that are available just in the iOS like Swift, like, you know, developer kits, the S D Ks. I feel like there will be a ton of people that are just building cool, interesting things on the iPhone that could potentially like go viral and and then become real businesses.

• 59:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, I I don't think this will be that like meaningful for like Apple Intelligence because it's

• 59:22John Coogan?

  I agree.

• 59:23Speaker 06

  Like, that's like a product issue. It's not like a hardware issue. But yeah, I definitely think for like third party developers, this will be like pretty big.

• 59:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:31Speaker 06

  You can do like, you know, if you make some random game, you can now have like avatars or whatever.

• 59:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:35Speaker 06

  Like, if you make the S D K really easy, where like, it's very easy to inference L L M.

• 59:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:39Speaker 06

  You don't have to like, figure out how to like, download and then do inference and all that stuff. If they like abstract that away.

• 59:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:45Speaker 06

  I think it could be interesting.

• 59:46John Coogan?

  And I just feel like we've seen so many, there's been so many companies. We talked to some folks at Demo Day who are doing this where they were like, we have this cool AI agent that like scrapes your emails and does this. And it all is, it's all predicated on you installing a Mac app, which is a really, really hard thing to do. Whereas like.

• 1:00:04Speaker 06

  Yeah. How many Mac apps do you think you've installed this year?

• 1:00:06John Coogan?

  Oh, it's super rare. It's super rare. You know, I got something to put the decks together. Like, I literally have a Chrome. Like, that's the one I installed. I'm looking at my Home Row. And it's like, it's just Chrome.

• 1:00:20Speaker 06

  Well, and this is why everybody's obsessed with the browser.

• 1:00:23John Coogan?

  Truly, truly, because if you can get people over there, then you're there. But, but I have installed apps and I've installed little tiny apps. We were talking about the, the workout tracking app Strong. That I saw my friend at the gym, he was using an app to track his workouts. Said, what app is that? I went and downloaded it. You went and downloaded it. It was very easy for that app to like loosely go viral and it's a free app. But it doesn't have any like AI, it doesn't really need any AI, but, but you could imagine that the, the viral coefficient of, of someone downloads an app, they have a magical experience with some twist on top of an LLM, something storytelling, something astrology. Who knows what it'll be? I can't predict it. It's as hard to predict as Instagram or Uber.

• 1:01:05John Coogan?

  But it's unlocked by having this, having this ability for free on the iPhone. And then people are sharing screenshots of, oh, I had this hilarious interaction or this was incredible or I love this app. They create some viral loop, they do some Nikita Beer type stuff. And then, and then everyone's downloading the app and then it gets actually really, really big. And I don't think it's going to be a compet- I don't think it's going to compete with ChatGPT. I think it's going to be a completely different thing and it's very hard to predict, but, but it feels like we might be seeing it. Yeah. And, and, and it's going to require some like really, you know, crack level of, of creativity like what we saw with Harry, Harry Potter Balenciaga, where it's like the technology existed. And then someone came up with, with the great idea to actually go like instantiate it. So if you're going to be locking that app up,

• 1:01:50John Coogan?

  you're going to do it in Figma.com. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. You can get started for free.

• 1:01:59John Coogan?

  The Wall Street Journal was also covering the Apple's iPhone Air. They had a whole interview. They, they, they, they had really good coverage of the, of the iPhone event. There was a few, there was one thing in the, the reporting from the Wall Street Journal. I don't have, I don't have this particular article actually, but they did an article with the Wall Street Journal and Apple revealed that I, I believe they said the majority of iPhones, fifty-one percent or more, that are shipping to America are going to be made in India and I'm not Sure if it was this cycle, but it seemed like they were taking the tariff stuff really seriously,

• 1:02:39John Coogan?

  moving the the actual manufacturing capacity around. Obviously, Foxconn, their their manufacturing partners, a Taiwanese company, and so they're worried about geopolitical risk as well. And so just another, another data point around Tim Cook. He is not loudly shouting like, America, I'm all in, reindustrialize, but he is making moves.

• 1:03:03Jordi Hays?

  What was the number he threw out at the dinner last week? Wasn't it?

• 1:03:06John Coogan?

  I don't know if he had a number because who was it? It was Zoc had a number. And did Apple have a number too? That was 600 billion or something? Apple has thrown out a number at one point. You're completely right. My, my, my point is that we've seen

• 1:03:23Jordi Hays?

  The number of thank yous.

• 1:03:25John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, the number of thank yous is a lot. But, but, but we've seen he's invested in, in some semi, some rare earth developments in the United States and starting to think about manufacturing internationally. And, you know, the, the, the pro bullish bet on Tim Cook is that like, if he was able to set up this in China, and he's the reason, he can set it up somewhere else because he's the guy who did it. And so even though he hasn't been really loud about his moves, because obviously if he says like, oh yeah, I'm not going to be manufacturing in China anymore, then like his important business partners over there are probably going to be like, well, yeah, like, we're not going to take your business seriously anymore. There are a ton of different geopolitical considerations.

• 1:04:10Jordi Hays?

  Such an iconic line from the dinner.

• 1:04:12John Coogan?

  What did he say?

• 1:04:12Jordi Hays?

  Cook says, I've always enjoyed dinner and interacting.

• 1:04:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, if you're getting dinner this weekend with one of your boys, just tell.

• 1:04:21Jordi Hays?

  It's like how to say something that like, no one can can't, you know, cancel you for. It's like, I've always enjoyed dinner and interacting.

• 1:04:30Jordi Hays?

  Two things I've enjoyed.

• 1:04:32John Coogan?

  He's a dinner enjoyer.

• 1:04:32Jordi Hays?

  Saying I've always enjoyed dinner with you.

• 1:04:34John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:04:35Jordi Hays?

  And interacting with you. He's just saying I've always enjoyed dinner.

• 1:04:39John Coogan?

  Incredible. He put it putting on a claim. I I feel like for watching some of these, like I was watching the Tucker Sam Altman interview and there's a certain level of polish that some of these, some of these CEOs have when they get to a certain level of media training and public speaking experience where I think of them more as like word rotators than word cells or shape rotators. Like they can, they can so quickly like shift a sentence to be like, like that, like so perfectly balanced where you're like, wow, every word in that sentence was calculated so that it's the rides this perfect line like, like Sam was going back and forth with Tucker and Tucker's like, I didn't accuse you. I didn't accuse you. And you, and if you run back the transcript,

• 1:05:24John Coogan?

  you're like, yeah, technically he didn't. And that there was not, it was not an accusation. But then, you know, they're, they're rotating the sentences around to try and like paint each other. It's like watching a wrestling match. It's crazy.

• 1:05:35Jordi Hays?

  Tim Cook said they would be investing $600 billion.

• 1:05:38John Coogan?

  600 billion. Yeah. Okay. So Apple says the majority of iPhones shipped to the US are now assembled in India, meaning they face no tariff, yet Indian suppliers aren't yet capable of delivering as many of the pro models that US consumers demand. So most of those still come from China. So this is the majority of iPhones in total because iPhone, Apple makes a ton of those, but they can't, they can't make the leading edge. And then the other thing that everyone always talks about with this like assembled in India is not the same as fully manufactured in India. Obviously, the, the advantage to Chinese manufacturing prowess is that you'll walk across the street and there's a CNC shop with 25,000 CNC machines that can just immediately make you any part and make a million

• 1:06:23John Coogan?

  of those parts if you need. So obviously, it's going to be a long road for them to set up manufacturing anywhere other than, other than China. But it does seem like Tim Cook's taking it seriously.

• 1:06:36Jordi Hays?

  Understand Tim's actual strategy here because I don't think he's saying, I'm going to invest.

• 1:06:43Jordi Hays?

  He's not going to be in a huge hurry to invest that 600 billion, right? Uh, he may, you know, he may not actually believe it's, it's at all the right decision for Apple and he's feeling like he needs to

• 1:06:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Jordi Hays?

  placate the admin. And then if, and then in 2028 comes around and

• 1:06:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Jordi Hays?

  he just, you know, can pull back or pull out.

• 1:07:01John Coogan?

  There's also like so much to 600 billion of CapEx over what, five years or something like that? Like that includes HQ. That includes data centers for iCloud that need to be local. Uh, if you're streaming the F1 movie on Apple TV plus, you don't want that stream coming from a data center across the world necessarily. It needs to be cash locally. So there are like so many different pieces of the business, building more Apple stores. Like that counts as CapEx if they build them and they, you know, they're, so 600 billion doesn't necessarily mean like, yes, like we're building like the one plant because, you know, this is like a rainforest of complexity that actually

• 1:07:41John Coogan?

  delivers the, the iPhone. It's not just, it's not just like one iPhone factory, please. It's like a whole network of things. Battery life appears to be a challenge for the air. Uh, Apple always says like all day battery life, but people are like,

• 1:07:55Jordi Hays?

  Allegedly.

• 1:07:56John Coogan?

  what kind of all day are we talking? Are we talking scrolling for 18 hours?

• 1:07:59Jordi Hays?

  Doom scroll.

• 1:08:00John Coogan?

  Are we talking proper scroll? Uh, proper doom scroll. Uh, Apple

• 1:08:05Jordi Hays?

  And somebody was

• 1:08:06John Coogan?

  battery accessory that will attach to the air. Um, and obviously that's no longer as thin. Uh, the company added what it calls a plateau on the back of the Air and Pro models, adding thickness at the top of the device to fit bigger and hotter chips.

• 1:08:20Jordi Hays?

  Not a bump. It's a plateau.

• 1:08:22John Coogan?

  It's a plateau. Yeah. Oh, they're, they're rebranding.

• 1:08:24Jordi Hays?

  Maybe they're signaling that we're, maybe this is Gartner hype cycle coded.

• 1:08:28John Coogan?

  The plateau productivity. I mean, they have plateaued in productivity for sure. The hype cycle, they, they've been through it. They're like, first hype cycle? First hype cycle? I've been here. I'm, I'm, I'm plateauing. I'm, I'm getting productive.

• 1:08:43John Coogan?

  OpenAI, the nonprofit, is going to control its for-profit arm and own equity valued at $100 billion. I believe this will make it the most highly valued nonprofit, or like the most profitable nonprofit in world history. The best funded nonprofit, right? And it is remarkable to think about what that will be like. People have kind of written off the nonprofit as like, it's going away. Like, it is not going away. Like, it will continue to be a thing.

• 1:09:11Jordi Hays?

  Incredibly back.

• 1:09:11John Coogan?

  It's incredibly back, funded forever, essentially, to do a ton of interesting things. I think we're going to see interesting things about, uh, come out of that organization. But anyway, the news, this is from the Journal, and we'll, and we'll break this down. But Nick has it summarized here. OpenAI LLC will be converted into a Delaware public benefit corporation. OpenAI nonprofit retains control of the new public benefit corporation. The nonprofit will hold $100 billion plus of equity in the public benefit corporation. The PBC structure enables raising large amounts of capital for the mission. Which obviously they're already doing. They're still aligned with ensuring AGI benefits all of humanity. That's good.

• 1:09:55John Coogan?

  Also, it's aligned with, like, your shareholders. Like, if you're just a normal C corp, I know they're a public benefit corporation, but if you're just a normal C corp, like, shareholders are humans. Let's make sure it benefits the shareholders. That will by definition benefit humanity, but specifically, they're saying all of humanity. Even if you're not a shareholder, AGI should still benefit you, which was a noble cause. OpenAI and Microsoft signed a non-binding MOU for the next phase of the partnership. A definitive agreement is still being negotiated. OpenAI says it's engaging in Delaware.

• 1:10:24Jordi Hays?

  Remember, as it stands, Microsoft gets 20% of OpenAI's revenue.

• 1:10:29John Coogan?

  And for the big man, something like that.

• 1:10:31Jordi Hays?

  Big man, Satya, something like that, uh, which... It felt like a stretch to me that that would be sustainable, given the looming costs that OpenAI needs to incur. Obviously, they're ramping revenue really quickly.

• 1:10:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Jordi Hays?

  But you have Broadcom to pay, you have Oracle to pay, you have all these.

• 1:10:51John Coogan?

  But it is tied to revenue, you know, it's not the same as being like.

• 1:10:54Jordi Hays?

  You're the crazy fix.

• 1:10:55John Coogan?

  Billion. Yeah, it's an off-fig shot, exactly.

• 1:10:58Jordi Hays?

  But still, but still, it's a lot of, you know, the, the, there's, these companies are under margin pressure already.

• 1:11:05John Coogan?

  And, and wasn't the original deal that it would, it would be 20% up until they paid $100 billion or something like that? There was something where like it eventually ran its course. I believe it had an ending, and I think that's what's justifying a lot of the underwriting. Because the lesson from Google, the lesson from Facebook, the lesson from, you know, Microsoft and the rest of the hyperscalers was that you needed your DCF models to be 20 or 30 years into the future, right?

• 1:11:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34John Coogan?

  And so if you just, if you, i- i- if you didn't take into account the third decade of growth, you were undervaluing.

• 1:11:43Jordi Hays?

  It was originally reported 20% through 2030.

• 1:11:46John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:11:46Jordi Hays?

  Which still is.

• 1:11:47John Coogan?

  I don't think a lot of investors are scared by thinking about value in 2035. I think they're fine with that now. I think they're saying like, yeah, I have a 10-year fund and realistically, all the best venture investments, SpaceX is still hanging out in the portfolio 20 years later. They got continuation funds. I think that a lot of investors are actually fine to say, yeah, this company is going to be like, you know, maybe a financial mess for 10 years, but if I'm super confident it's going to be a money printing machine in 20, I'll do the deal all day.

• 1:12:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:17John Coogan?

  I think that's the rationale.

• 1:12:18Jordi Hays?

  It's still insane to think that the deal ever got done in the first place.

• 1:12:23John Coogan?

  Is it a Microsoft deal?

• 1:12:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, if you were, if, if, if you talked to a founder and they were like, yeah, I was running a fundraise and like. You know, ended up taking this deal. I got the valuation I wanted, but ultimately it gave up 20% of revenue. Off the top too. So not 20% of like profits, but like a 20% tax on gross revenue.

• 1:12:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:43Jordi Hays?

  Uh, just for the, just still 2030. And the, and the founder's like, well, it doesn't matter that much because I'm in this for like 20 years.

• 1:12:51John Coogan?

  Most, most companies do not get the pass on that.

• 1:12:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, very few businesses, very few businesses in the world, especially like highly competitive, you know, categories. Uh, can sustain a 20% tax off the top.

• 1:13:03John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:13:04Jordi Hays?

  Um, and still really produce any profits or, or be functioning at all. Obviously.

• 1:13:09John Coogan?

  I'll push you. What if you're, what if your business is, uh, mobile games in the app store? You've been effectively Apple a 20%, 30% tax off the top.

• 1:13:20Jordi Hays?

  There's a bunch of examples, like Nvidia could do this too, right? And they sort of are.

• 1:13:25John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. So I, I don't know. I, I, I mean, I agree with you. Like it is, it is a crazy, crazy deal, unprecedented in a million ways. But everything about the entire OpenAI story is unprecedented.

• 1:13:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35John Coogan?

  Unprecedented to start as a nonprofit, unprecedented to have, who are the co-founders? Elon Musk, Peter Thiel. Like you have like seven different co-founders who have, a bunch of co-founders have gone off and start direct competitors. That doesn't happen very often. Usually people are like, I got bags in the category. I'm going to go work on something else.

• 1:13:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:52John Coogan?

  There's a bunch of weird stuff.