Diet TBPN: November 6, 2025

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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  Wild time on the timeline yesterday with comments from OpenAI, OpenAI's Finance Chief Sarah Frye. She was at a Wall Street Journal event on Wednesday.

• 0:09Jordi Hays?

  She put the timeline in turmoil.

• 0:10John Coogan?

  She did put the timeline in turmoil. The headline from the Wall Street Journal was, "OpenAI Wants Federal Backstop For New Investments."

• 0:21Speaker 02

  OpenAI, at our core, are the model company that needs always to be the state of the art. That's what we've done time and time again. GPT-5 is no exception. But even in areas like open source, we're attempting to put the state-of-the-art model always out into the world. And in order to do that, we always want to be on the frontier chip. So the question is, how long does a chip remain on the frontier? Is it three years, four years, five years, or even longer? Now, in a world where we have no compute or we're compute constrained, we are absolutely using chips that have, like, A100 equivalents that have been around like maybe six, seven years at this point in time. If that's the case, financing chips gets a lot easier.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  If the timeline on the chip stays short, that gets harder. And so this is where we're looking for an ecosystem of banks, private equity, maybe even governmental, the ways governments can come to bear.

• 1:20Speaker 03

  Meaning like a federal subsidy or something?

• 1:22Speaker 02

  Meaning like, just first of all, the backstop, the guarantee that allows the financing to happen.

• 1:28John Coogan?

  It's like a ton of bricks.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  That can really drop the cost of the financing, but also increase the loaned value. So the amount of debt that you can take on top of an equity portion for finance.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  Is it some federal backstop for chip investment?

• 1:41Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I think we're seeing that. I think the US government in particular has been incredibly forward-leaning, has really understood that AI is almost a national strategic asset and that we really need to be thoughtful when we think about competition with, for example, China. Are we doing all the right things to grow our AI ecosystem as fast as possible?

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Are you talking to the White House about how to further formalize that kind of backstop?

• 2:11Speaker 02

  We're always being brought in by the White House to give our point of view as an expert on what's happening in the sector, for sure.

• 2:18John Coogan?

  So on LinkedIn, Sarah Friar said she wasn't asking for a backstop for OpenAI's investments. She was just making the point that American strength in technology will come from building real industrial capacity, which requires the private sector and government playing their part. Every comment, every sentence uttered by an OpenAI executive will be analyzed to death. It's one of my favorite things to do, so that's exactly what we're going to do on this show, should a federal backstop exist for large-scale industrial projects? Like, when there's a lot of money floating around in the economy, should the government be ready to step in if things don't line up, if things don't pencil out?

• 3:01John Coogan?

  And so Sam Altman actually touched on a similar concept in his conversation with Tyler Cowen that was recorded, I think, a few days ago, but also went live yesterday, which is just sort of crazy timing.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  As you know, both you and I were fans of nuclear power, but we also know the insurance for nuclear power plants is provided by the government. The plants might be quite safe, but people worry, they're nervous nellies, there's a lot of parties involved, so the federal government does the insurance. Do you worry that the future holds the same for AI companies, where the feds are your insurer?

• 3:34Speaker 05

  At some level, when something gets sufficiently huge, whether or not they are on paper, the federal government is kind of the insurer of last resort, as we've seen in various financial crises and insurance companies screwing things up. So I guess, given the magnitude of what I expect AI economic impact to look like, sort of, I do think the government ends up as like the insurer of last resort, but I think I mean that in a different way than you mean that, and I don't expect them to actually be like writing the policies in the way that maybe they do for nuclear.

• 4:09Speaker 04

  And there's a big difference between the government being the insurer of last resort and the insurer of first resort. Last resort's inevitable, but I'm worried they'll become the insurer of first resort, and that I don't want.

• 4:19Speaker 05

  I don't want that either. It's not, I don't.

• 4:22John Coogan?

  I don't think that's what will happen.

• 4:24Jordi Hays?

  Let me give some more context here. In that same day, that same interview, OpenAI CFO Sarah Friar suggested the market is overly focused about anxiety about a possible bubble in artificial intelligence and should muster more exuberance about the technology's potential. Quote, "I don't think there's enough exuberance about AI when I think about the actual practical implications and what it can do for individuals. We should keep running at it." You know, Friday, everyone saw the interview with Sam and Brad. Brad asked a very simple question that's on everyone's minds. Sam basically doesn't answer the question. Nobody heard his response and thought, okay, I'm confident. And so to go into that and then say in this interview, the market is not exuberant enough.

• 5:04Jordi Hays?

  She can go out and say that she takes it back or that she didn't mean it to come across in the way that it did. But in the moment, agreed with the interviewer's point.

• 5:14John Coogan?

  I feel like it is true that there is a government backstop. Whenever there's a trillion dollars of spend going on, there is a de facto backstop. Like, this happened in 2008. There was a global financial crisis. Banks were leveraged on housing. The government came in and acted as the lender of last resort. In that moment, it was the rational thing to do. Now, the problem is that if you are identifying the backstop before you get into trouble, it creates this moral hazard, and that's why people were so upset with Wall Street. I don't see, I actually don't see a problem with the government behaving like it always has. I don't have a problem with that. I'm fine with a backstop, and I wouldn't change anything about the way the government works. And I'm serious about that.

• 5:58John Coogan?

  I think that the alternative is actually worse. I think the alternative, if you go back to 2008 and you say, okay, let's not bail out the banks, I think that you just extend the recession.

• 6:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if in 2005, the banks and various players were saying, we're going to do a bunch of super risky lending that we're not sure is going to pencil out, and we just want to know that if things get really bad, you'll be there to bail us out, but we're going to make a ton of money in the process.

• 6:26John Coogan?

  My conclusion to my post today was, America has a playbook for backstops. I don't think Sarah Friar or anyone at OpenAI is asking to rewrite the playbook. But there's something that feels very moral hazard-y about the CFO of the most important company at the center of a massive economic wave, sort of telling everyone how the magic trick works. It is a problem if you if you say, I'm openly acknowledging the way the system works and I'm going to push it to the limit. That's a little bit rough.

• 6:54Speaker 06

  The A B test of like 2008, you can kind of say is like Great Depression.

• 6:57John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:58Speaker 06

  Where there's this big critique where people were basically mad that there wasn't stimulus earlier.

• 7:02John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 7:02Speaker 06

  And then basically by not doing stimulus, you drag out the depression like way longer than it should have.

• 7:06John Coogan?

  Totally. I mean, it was the foundation of the Keynesian economic model, like this idea that it is actually advantageous to spend. I like the backstop more than we're going to try and pick a winner and do a specific project. What was the backstop in dot com? Do you know what they did as a result of dot com?

• 7:23Speaker 06

  No.

• 7:23John Coogan?

  Like, they didn't go in and say, oh, you're in pets dot com, we're making you whole. What they did was they said, there's a recession right now, we need to lower interest rates, we need to cut taxes a little bit, we need to just stimulate the economy just a little bit to get back on our feet and just start up the economic engine.

• 7:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 7:42John Coogan?

  So they did tax cuts and lower interest rates. And that is a backstop. And I'm fine with that. I think that's fine. If the AI bubble pops and the end result is that we get lower interest rates and some tax cuts and like.

• 7:55Jordi Hays?

  That's very different than various players wanting to develop data centers and lenders feeling uncomfortable about not having clarity on, are these chips going to be worth anything in six years? Are they going to be worth anything in five years? Are they going to be useless after a few years? When I hear these comments from Sarah Friar.

• 8:14John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:14Jordi Hays?

  What I'm hearing is, we have a bunch of lenders that would that would happily finance this if there's a government guarantee that they won't lose money. And that's very different. If you get some type of setup where the government does come in and say, not just for OpenAI, but for a variety of these players, like, yeah, we will provide a backstop.

• 8:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:32Jordi Hays?

  The lenders start to feel comfortable, they start to lend, what's the lender's incentive? If a lender makes money when they lend money and they have some type of structure where they can't lose money.

• 8:41John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 8:42Jordi Hays?

  What are they going to do?

• 8:43John Coogan?

  That's moral hazard.

• 8:43Jordi Hays?

  They're going to lend as much money as they possibly can. Looking back through, you know, oh, seven, oh, eight, and the example you gave around post dot com crash.

• 8:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:52Jordi Hays?

  I'm not against government intervention during a crisis.

• 8:55John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 8:55Jordi Hays?

  Using the government to create what will ultimately just be an even greater crisis and ultimately just socializing the losses from all of this and yeah.

• 9:03John Coogan?

  Tesla. Government backstop, right? Gave loans, paid back the loans. Tesla paid back the loans with interest. The taxpayer made money on that. And anyone who says, oh, Elon only, you know, he's just the government pays for everything. That's it's like they're wrong. The government made investment in Tesla and they got back money with interest. And so the government participating in private markets, it doesn't always end poorly. Sam is not asking for the government to take a position. He's like, I don't want to be Intel. I don't want them on my cap table. I don't want any of that. It's like.

• 9:37Jordi Hays?

  Sure.

• 9:38John Coogan?

  So honestly, I don't know. I don't know what they're asking for because it is a crazy, crazy piece of comms to say, to even talk about it in the current zeitgeist.

• 9:47Jordi Hays?

  And, you know, the general public already hates AI enough. I don't know. I would expect that something like this does happen.

• 9:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, that's why David Sacks came out and said like, there will be no federal bailout for AI. The US has at least five major frontier model companies. If one fails, others will take its place.

• 10:07Jordi Hays?

  The AI race looked more clearly like AI, China designing AI weapons. And OpenAI is purely a defense tech player that is also developing AI weapons. And in order to be competitive, in order to not have the CCP, you know, take full control over the world with their sort of dark superintelligence. We needed a national champion, national lab. We needed to give them as much infrastructure, as much energy, all these things. That scenario, I'd be looking at this a lot differently.

• 10:35John Coogan?

  I think literally me, you, Sarah Frye, David Sacks, we're all in agreement here that no one's saying OpenAI gets a bailout if the company doesn't do well. No one's saying that.

• 10:47Jordi Hays?

  But I think it's important to like, break these out. A bailout is like, OpenAI is going to default.

• 10:53John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:54Jordi Hays?

  And they need a capital injection in order to stay solvent. And David Sacks was clear, we're not going to have a bailout. But but a backstop of loans, I would expect that to happen.

• 11:06John Coogan?

  I guess the bigger question is like, should America vote to actually socializing the losses of the AI build out? Like, if you don't like AI, then you're like, no, there's no point. But if you think it's like the railroad, or you think it's like the internet infrastructure build out, or you think it's like the computing revolution, then you should be all in on that. On like, yes, put the weight of the US government behind this project.

• 11:30Jordi Hays?

  I just think there's no public appetite for this. Look at the state of the of the average American.

• 11:35John Coogan?

  I think you're right.

• 11:36Jordi Hays?

  They can't afford a home, they can't even afford McDonald's.

• 11:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 11:40Jordi Hays?

  They're already worried, I might get a job, and then I might lose it to AI.

• 11:43John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 11:43Jordi Hays?

  You have people working in AI that are already talking about job displacement.

• 11:47John Coogan?

  We have some breaking news. Sama has tweeted addressing the backstop. I would like to clarify a few things. First, the obvious one, we do not do not have or want government guarantees for OpenAI data centers. We believe that governments should not pick winners or losers, and that taxpayers should not bail out companies that make bad business decisions or otherwise lose in the market. If one company fails, other companies will do good work. What we do think might make sense is government building and owning their own AI infrastructure.

• 12:16Jordi Hays?

  Go code.

• 12:17John Coogan?

  Then the upside of that should be should flow to the government as well. We can imagine a world where governments decide to take to off-take a lot of computing power and get to and get to decide how to use it, and it may make sense to provide lower cost of capital to do so. Building a strategic national reserve of computing power makes a lot of sense. If you believe in the lore of AI 2027, this is trust the plan. Jensen Huang was in the Financial Times talking about the China will win AI race with America, says Nvidia chief.

• 12:49Jordi Hays?

  He's like, China's gonna win the AI race. We need to sell them as many chips as we possibly can right now. Please, they're gonna win. His position is that we want to get China dependent.

• 13:00John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 13:01Jordi Hays?

  On on American AI infrastructure so that we can pull it back at any time. But saying they're about to win the AI race when he's also advocating for selling them as many as many chips as as they can produce doesn't really sit sit that. We need to better define what the AI AI AI race is.

• 13:20John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Jordi Hays?

  Like Gurley earlier this year, I think, made some good points like, what is the AI race? How does one win? What does that look like? What does it look like in the near term?

• 13:27John Coogan?

  If your AI bill, it's the race to a superintelligence, a system that can do any economic work.

• 13:34Jordi Hays?

  And the reason that people don't take that narrative super seriously right now is that companies like OpenAI make short form social media apps.

• 13:42John Coogan?

  Well, then the question is, if we're not getting 10x the results, do we need to be spending 10x as much next year? What we do think might make sense is the government building their own AI infrastructure. The project is going to happen. Building a strategic national reserve of computing power makes a lot of sense, but this should be for the government's benefit, not the benefit of private companies. The one area where we have discussed loan guarantees as as part of supporting the build out of semiconductor fabs in the United States. I I completely agree with this. I'm pro all of it when it comes to building semiconductor fabs in the United States.

• 14:15Jordi Hays?

  I've been a bit more negative. I'm pro build out. I think the power side is an area that could make a lot more sense.

• 14:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:23Jordi Hays?

  That could benefit the average American a lot more.

• 14:25John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:25Jordi Hays?

  Which is like, hey, the government is going to help finance, bring a lot more power online. And we're going to be stay be able to stay at the at the leading edge in AI, lead in AI and your power bill. We're actually going to make your power bill cheaper over time. That's something that people could could get behind, but federal backstop so you can get more videos of your cat dressed up like a doctor. I don't think people are going to be on board with that. I think it's very unclear to me how building just a national reserve of computing power makes a lot of sense. New consumer devices and robotics, excited about that. I think it's hard for them to lean on those, right? Because when I look at the the history of big tech companies launching ambitious products,

• 15:10Jordi Hays?

  oftentimes they.

• 15:13Jordi Hays?

  Either flop entirely or lose money for a long time.

• 15:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:16Jordi Hays?

  So new consumer devices. So Zuck has been doing this, right? And just been like literally just lighting money on fire for years now. You're saying we are looking at about 1.4 trillion of commitments over the next eight years. And you're saying that part of our solution to delivering on this is new consumer electronics? I personally, I don't lean on that too hard. None of these things scream cash flow to me. These to me seem very likely like businesses, new business lines that also lose money. I'm excited about these categories. I think they're going to make cool, novel products. But it doesn't give me more confidence that they can meet those commitments.

• 15:56John Coogan?

  Keep the government out of the application layer. Focus on the energy layer. Just, just work on driving down energy prices and let all the tech companies duke it out. And they will be beneficiaries of cheaper energy. But I want, I want, you know, tons of American jobs building everything from natural gas to

• 16:19Jordi Hays?

  Solar.

• 16:20John Coogan?

  That solar plant, I want 10 of those and I want it staffed by Americans. How about that?

• 16:24Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm on board with that.

• 16:26John Coogan?

  We could agree with that.

• 16:26Jordi Hays?

  The other thing is we're also looking for ways to more directly sell compute capacity to other companies and people. And so when I look at this, when you're simultaneously saying we're so compute constrained that, that they're making the AI lazy and they're not launching new features.

• 16:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:43Jordi Hays?

  To me, this just, again, this just says like OpenAI is, is a new hyperscaler. And it's so hard to compete with the hyperscalers that have huge amounts of cash flow. That they need every advantage that they possibly can, right? And one way they could get an advantage is through programs like Sarah suggested and then walked back.

• 17:02John Coogan?

  Timeline continues to be in turmoil. If OpenAI were to fail, it would have zero impact on the future of AI, zero, he says. They have a dozen viable competitors and 10 folks who would buy the assets. Let it rise or fall based on merit. Like the fact that this is the reaction to that quote is like so crazy. The idea of like federal backstop just immediately conjures massive failure and it just puts.

• 17:27John Coogan?

  Your company and failure right next to each other. So very, very rough, very rough. This is why traditionally CFOs are only allowed to speak fake accounting identities in public. Backstop is what the Federal Reserve calls it when they have to save 20 banks from exploding if invited in a global financial crisis. The word you were looking for, Sarah, was partnership. I'm actually more pro backstop than partnership because I don't love the idea of the government picking winners in any particular layer of the stack. But partnership just sounds so much more positive than backstop. It just conjures up financial crisis. It just feels like, like major layoffs, recession, stock market sell off as soon as you start talking about backstop.

• 18:13John Coogan?

  So a huge amount of the money being spent on AI has gone to GPUs, particularly Nvidia, rocketing the fabulous design company to a nearly $5 trillion valuation and the title of most valuable company in the world. The problem from the Carlota Perez perspective is that all of this spending on chips is relative to the sort of infrastructure she wrote about. Railroads, factories, fiber, short-lived. If there's a bubble in railroads and we're like, we think railroads are going to unlock 5% GDP growth. It's amazing. And then you build all the railroads, like the worst case scenario is you end up with a bunch of rails. You can still put cars on them, like they still work, but with a bunch of GPUs that

• 18:54John Coogan?

  like depreciate and get useless and they break, like they don't stick around forever.

• 18:59Jordi Hays?

  Good thing, John, is we're going to find out.

• 19:01John Coogan?

  We're gonna find out.

• 19:01Jordi Hays?

  Right now, we're effing around.

• 19:03John Coogan?

  Right now, we're effing around.

• 19:05Jordi Hays?

  Friar is describing a worse form of regulatory capture than anything we have seen proposed in any US legislation I am aware of. A firm lobbying for this outcome is literally, rather than impressionistically lobbying for regulatory capture. And this is going back to what I was saying before. If there is some type of program where the government is guaranteeing loans made for certain data center projects, like anybody will just get to be in that program. I'm with Dean Ball on this one and, you know, Sarah. And the team have walked it back, but they said it.

• 19:42John Coogan?

  Yeah. David Sacks said there will be no federal bailout for AI. But he did address your comment, Tyler. He said, that said, we do want to make permitting and power generation easier. The goal is rapid infrastructure build out without increasing residential rates for electricity. Let's hear it for that.

• 19:59Jordi Hays?

  Nvidia down almost 8% over the last five days. A bunch of other names are down a ridiculous amount. Duolingo is down.

• 20:09John Coogan?

  Is Snap up? Snap is up, right?

• 20:12Jordi Hays?

  CarMax down 18%. HubSpot down 18%.

• 20:15John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 20:16Jordi Hays?

  DoorDash down 15%.

• 20:18John Coogan?

  Crazy sell off.

• 20:20Jordi Hays?

  What's been notable this week, companies are selling off after earnings beat. Palantir down 10.7% in the past five days.

• 20:28John Coogan?

  Whether you're going long or you're going short, do it on public.com.

• 20:32Jordi Hays?

  That's right.

• 20:32John Coogan?

  Investing for those that take it seriously. They got multi-asset investing, industry-leading years, they're trusted by millions. Snap shares surged after the company announced a $400 million partnership with Perplexity to incorporate AI-powered search engine into Snapchat. The deal gives Snap a new business line and puts the social media company squarely into the mix around AI chatbots.

• 20:53Jordi Hays?

  Why is Snap not monetizing their half, almost half a billion DAUs of young people? And this is a great way for them to do it?

• 21:03John Coogan?

  477 million DAUs in the third quarter for Snap, an 8% jump from a year ago. So they're still growing. The company also reported 943 million monthly active users. So they're almost at a billion MAUs and half a billion DAUs, which is remarkable.

• 21:22Jordi Hays?

  Wild that Snap has almost a billion monthly actives and is valued.

• 21:28Jordi Hays?

  Substantially less than perplexity.

• 21:31John Coogan?

  It was kind of odd that Snapchat didn't have a dance partner on the AI side. Since every other major social media platform is kind of bolted on to a lab at this point. XAI and X are obviously the most prominent example, but even like LinkedIn and Microsoft. And I don't think the US government should backstop data center loans or funnel money to Nvidia's 90% gross margin business. Instead, they should make it really easy to produce energy with subsidies and better rules, infrastructure that's beneficial for all and puts us at parity with China. Wow, this is a, this is an example of a person who's not into AI. Danny with 142 followers here saying, build your own effing energy sources.

• 22:16John Coogan?

  Stop being parasites on the grid. The way the grid is set up, the way the US economy is set up is not like, we don't build separate grids for each use case. Like, we didn't build a separate grid for Netflix. Some people might say that hospitals deserve better access to electricity than Netflix, right? Like, do we really need Netflix? Like, is that life or death? No. This idea of the government putting the thumb on the scale of, and basically doing away with like, what is effectively net neutrality or grid neutrality is super, super alluring to people right now. That people are going to say, why are my rates going up for the thing I don't like? It's kind of always been that way, you know?

• 22:57John Coogan?

  Why are airline ticket prices going up because people are ordering things that are, you know, shipping by air? Like, that happens.

• 23:06Jordi Hays?

  What is the case against bailouts if winning the AI race against China is existential? I'm not actually making this argument or have this view necessarily, but public money backstops bailouts seem like the natural endpoint of how AI is discussed at these levels.

• 23:21John Coogan?

  If winning the AI race against China is existential, America and every company should do everything possible.

• 23:27Jordi Hays?

  Do you like, I should, I should read through a little bit of, of this FT article about Jensen saying China will win the AI race with the US. In the starkest comments yet from the head of the world's most valuable company, Huang told the Financial Times, China is going to win the AI race. Huang's remarks come after the Trump administration maintained a ban. On California-based Nvidia selling its most advanced chips to Beijing following a meeting between US President Donald Trump and Chinese leader Xi last week. The Nvidia chief said that the West, including the US and the UK, was being held back by cynicism, and we need more optimism. Huang had previously warned that the latest American AI models were not far ahead of their Chinese rivals, urging the US government to open up the market to its chips to keep the rest of the world dependent on its technology.

• 24:10Jordi Hays?

  But following his meeting with Xi, Trump said last week that he did not want to let China use Nvidia's cutting-edge blackwell chips, the most advanced. We will not let anybody have them other than the United States.

• 24:19John Coogan?

  We still want, we want a fair fight. We want a free market. We want everyone who wants to buy chips can buy them. And then it's still a race. Like, like, everyone gets a pair of cleats, and then you have to actually race. And so what are you racing on? You're racing on ingenuity? You're racing on ability to actually build things effectively?

• 24:40Jordi Hays?

  We know from history

• 24:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:43Jordi Hays?

  That even if we give China chips, they will still spend as much as they need to in order to catch up themselves.

• 24:52John Coogan?

  I don't know. I do think that there's, I do think that you can put supply pressure on the Chinese system.

• 24:59Jordi Hays?

  Sure, maybe, yeah.

• 25:00John Coogan?

  A little bit.

• 25:01Jordi Hays?

  Maybe you could slow it down a little.

• 25:02John Coogan?

  I mean, they've been, they've been investing in semiconductors for 50 years, right?

• 25:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they've had like, how many five-year plans?

• 25:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna continue to do that. There is, there is some level of an acceptable argument to this idea that if you continue to, to push Nvidia chips there, it just makes the Huawei ascend just a little bit less exciting.

• 25:21Jordi Hays?

  This, this post, I think, is pretty reflective of kind of general sentiment, specifically outside of the tech industry, from Elliott. He says, "If OpenAI blows up and investors are saved by the government, I would vote for Fidel Castro." This is not what Sarah Friar was proposing, right?

• 25:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Jordi Hays?

  But, but it is, it is a funny.

• 25:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, people are not not into it. There's also a little bit of cognitive dissonance there, too. If the products are just tech products, no one was really upset that Uber and Facebook and Google were trying to sell their products into China. The whole reason why it became like, don't sell AI to China was because it was like, AI is so valuable. It's so powerful. If you don't believe AI is super powerful, then you should maybe be OK with selling it to China.

• 26:08Jordi Hays?

  The timing of Jensen coming out and saying China's going to win the AI race and not even clarifying what that means, right? Are they going to build more, better data centers faster? Are they going to have better models? Are they going to unleash superintelligence?

• 26:21John Coogan?

  I mean, you've seen-

• 26:22Jordi Hays?

  At the same time, because I assume Trump will see this quote, and he's going to say, well, I don't want to lose to China on anything.

• 26:28John Coogan?

  If AGI happens in 15 years, China is more likely to get it because they're on a steeper energy ramp than we are. But if AGI happens sooner, and it is just sort of an algorithmic breakthrough, like, we do have an advantage in America because we have more data centers right now. If you want to get President Donald Trump's attention around energy regulation, this is a pretty good headline. You want to say, hey, let's drive down energy costs in America, make it about geopolitics. Why not? Do you have a problem with that?

• 26:58Jordi Hays?

  Making it about geopolitics, pretty effective. Sam Altman snaps at Brad Friday, Michael Berry shorts. Alex Karp crashes out on TV. I didn't think that was that much. I didn't, it just seemed like a pretty normal Karp interview. You-

• 27:13John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, I saw a little bit of CNBC.

• 27:15Jordi Hays?

  He was like, maybe slightly more annoyed. DoorDash misses. OpenAI CFO floats a bailout, not quite accurate. Floats a backstop, maybe, and then takes it back. McDonald's is for the upper class. Did you see this?

• 27:31John Coogan?

  No.

• 27:31Jordi Hays?

  Like, lower income consumption at McDonald's is declining, which is-

• 27:36Jordi Hays?

  Concerning.

• 27:37John Coogan?

  That's not great. Tesla shareholders approve Elon Musk's $1 trillion pay package. For reference, it received 75% of the vote. The $1 trillion stock award is tied to business goals. It nets Musk 878 billion, I guess.

• 27:58Jordi Hays?

  This also allows him to have, I think, 20% of the voting power, 25% of the voting power at Tesla, which is something he's talked about publicly around, you know, building this robot army and wanting to make sure that he can't be, you know, terminated for political reasons or other reasons. We hope you have a wonderful evening.

• 28:20John Coogan?

  Goodbye.