It’s Time to Give Nick Offerman (‘Parks and Recreation’) His Flowers

These days Nick Offerman appears to be one of the few remaining men who enjoys “making things rather than destroying things.” Career-best performances, best-selling books, a wooden, cedar-strip canoe built out of his Los Angeles Offerman Woodshop https://offermanwoodshop.com/. Nick does what he can (and then some). He joins us this week on the heels of his double Emmy nominations to talk through his emotionally complex performance in Margo’s Got Money Troubles, its connection to his past (8:48), and the range of projects born from his tendency to keep busy (13:10). Then, we turn to the words of the late, beloved poet Wendell Berry (15:35), Offerman’s rural upbringing in Illinois (16:45), and his timely role in the crime thriller Sovereign (26:55) On the back-half, we talk about masculinity in America (30:35), Ben Shapiro’s vexing response to Offerman’s Emmy-winning turn in The Last of Us (40:52), what Parks and Recreation symbolizes to its fans, new and old (56:00), and why he believes “if you can finish your day having offered more flowers than you’ve stepped on… that’s a good goal” (1:05:40). Subscribe to our ⁠⁠⁠YouTube channel⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@talkeasypod. As always, our email: [email protected]. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Someone sends me an email and says, will you narrate this documentary about beavers? Now, what the fuck are you supposed to say to that? Like, how do you say anything but you're goddamn right? I will narrate your beaver documentary.

• 0:15Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know if you need to do the beavers. I think the real question is, Nick.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  I don't need to, I get to.

• 0:20Sam Fragoso?

  You get to.

• 0:29Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:52Sam Fragoso?

  Today, actor, author, woodworker Nick Offerman. He first came on Talk Easy in 2021 around the release of his book Where the Deer and the Antelope Play. But in true Offerman fashion, this is a man who stays remarkably busy. Origin, Civil War, The Last of Us, all of which we cover in today's episode. But we begin with his new turn in the Emmy nominated series Margo's Got Money Troubles, streaming on Apple TV. It's a kind of complicated, emotionally rich character Offerman has said he's always wanted to play, but never got an opportunity to do so. We also discuss his role in the true crime film Sovereign, his return to the stage alongside

• 1:32Sam Fragoso?

  his wife, Megan Mullally, and his new audio series on WNYC dedicated to the poetry of writer and farmer Wendell Berry. In seminal books like The Unsettling of America and The Gift of Good Land, Berry extolled America's agrarian past from his cabin in the backwoods of Kentucky, writing mostly in pencil and without electrical light. I give all that context because we taped this episode just three days before Berry passed away at the age of 92. And yet, as you'll hear, his spirit hovers over large portions of this conversation. He was a huge influence on Offerman, on and off the page, dating back to the first time Nick discovered Wendell's work in the early 1990s.

• 2:15Sam Fragoso?

  And so it seems only fitting that we dedicate this episode on Labor Day weekend, no less, in memory of Berry and all he inspired in readers, including the one and only Nick Offerman. Nick Offerman, welcome back to the show.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  Thank you. What a sincere pleasure and privilege to be here.

• 2:36Sam Fragoso?

  How you doing, man?

• 2:37Speaker 00

  I'm good. I'm maintaining equilibrium. I'm very good at my disposition despite the state of the world.

• 2:45Sam Fragoso?

  How do you maintain?

• 2:47Speaker 00

  I'm very interested in people who make things tangibly with their hands. So I run my wood shop here in Los Angeles, and I talk to people about things like farming and woodworking, who, people who aren't involved in industrial agriculture or any of the billionaire pursuits. And that gives me optimism. People's kids who want to learn about fishing or like treehouse building, or just like have a conversation or read a book. And we never talk about apps or TikTok or all of the cancers.

• 3:28Sam Fragoso?

  Since we last spoke, you have been exceptionally busy, which is always the case. You were recently nominated for Margo's Got Money Troubles, playing a father, a retired fighter and a recovering addict, who has recently moved in with his daughter and her young child to help out around the house and I think also to stay clean. I think it's a dual mission statement there.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 3:50Sam Fragoso?

  You described the part recently as uncharted territory after 30 years of making work. Tell me about the waters. What felt so different?

• 3:59Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I've had a great time for 30 years, but by and large, there are characters in a show that you care about, their emotional journey, and that that's what the narrative is there for. And sometimes in that story, they would get on a bus and so, and I would be the guy driving the bus, or I would be the plumber who would show up. So I would be, you know, a tangential character to the main, the main emotional core of the story.

• 4:26Sam Fragoso?

  You'd be a pit stop on the journey.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. There were touches of Ron Swanson and Parks and Rec where we obviously cared about Ron's emotional journey, but because it's a pretty fast moving sitcom, it never goes too deeply. And so that, and then the, that nice job I got on the one episode of The Last of Us on HBO, which was a deeply emotional storyline, then people said, oh, it has feelings.

• 4:58Sam Fragoso?

  And you're it in this case.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and so now, so, you know, they're like, we need, we need a thuggish wrestler, but who also like makes us feel things.

• 5:09Sam Fragoso?

  I don't mean to get too personal too early, you know, I never want to get, you know me. Does Megan describe you as it as well?

• 5:16Speaker 00

  On Tuesdays, I'm allowed in the house. And depending on how I've been, if I've been a good boy that week, then I'm allowed to wash myself. And then there's a list of things we, I get to participate in.

• 5:29Sam Fragoso?

  What's on the list?

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Oh, that's too personal. That's where we draw the line. But it has been promised to me that very soon we will consummate our marriage. And I've been sticking around.

• 5:44Sam Fragoso?

  Almost 23 years now, right?

• 5:45Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 5:46Sam Fragoso?

  Wow.

• 5:46Speaker 00

  So the thing is to, to get to play a guy who has these complicated emotional relationships with my daughter, Elle Fanning, and my, and my daughter's mother, played by Michelle Pfeiffer, my former fling, is daunting and quite thrilling to get to, you know, to the writing of David E. Kelley and Eva Anderson and their support staff.

• 6:13Sam Fragoso?

  I heard you call the part, right before the show came out, quote, "a terrifying act that I spend all night thinking, good God, are they going to get it or am I going to die a frustrated artist?" Is that really what it felt like?

• 6:29Speaker 00

  That there may be a touch of hyperbole, just because I generally don't feel a lot of fear, thankfully. And so, you know, ultimately, I know the worst thing that's going to happen at work is everyone shrugs and says, well, I guess, I guess we better move on. Which, you know, happens sometimes, but, but generally with, with this, it just, you know, the arena continues to, to be scarier where, you know.

• 7:02Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean?

• 7:03Speaker 00

  I just feel like the stakes keep getting higher in a great way. This, you know, I just feel like this part, I haven't had a part that was this substantially important to a show, to be like one of the three main characters that has all this stuff going on. And part of it is just wanting to, you know, be up to the task. I love working for great generals, to make a military metaphor with like David E. Kelley and our director, Dear Villa Walsh. I want to, you know, if they're going to send me to the front line, I want to be up to the task.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  And so, you know, it comes from growing up with my mom and dad who armed me very well with life skills. And I've had a very satisfying life trying to do a good job with what they gave me.

• 7:59Sam Fragoso?

  Well, can you take a look at what that good job looks like?

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 8:02Sam Fragoso?

  This is from Margo's Got Money Troubles. In the scene that we're going to watch, we find your character, Jinx, showing up at his daughter's doorstep, fresh out of rehab.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  I thought you might be dead.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  I'm not dead. I just found out. I was in rehab to take away your phone.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Rehab?

• 8:23Speaker 00

  I came as soon as. I'm so sorry. And I'm here. I'm here.

• 8:48Speaker 00

  Wonderful side note, that jacket is my motorcycle jacket from when I was in college. And my dear friend, Rob Kimmel, who does ink art, did the art on the back of it as an original piece. And then my other friend, Martin McLendon, reproduced it on the jacket because his specialty was airbrushing. And so I still have the jacket. And I said, you guys, can I wear this jacket as Jinx? So it's actually quite prevalent in the show. And I just, and, and at the bottom of the art, Martin added the words, watch me burn, which, which was this whole other story. I was framing houses for these born again

• 9:33Speaker 00

  Christian brothers. And I accidentally lit this big pile of refuse on fire and blew myself off of it and burned off my hair and eyebrows. And I was screaming, watch me burn, boys. Because they used to admonish me jokingly for engaging in sin as a teenager. And so I was splashing gasoline on the fire.

• 10:01Sam Fragoso?

  How old were you then?

• 10:02Speaker 00

  I was 18, 19.

• 10:03Sam Fragoso?

  Right around college time.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was getting, making, making money for college.

• 10:07Sam Fragoso?

  Right. You were thinking about doing theater.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  And I was screaming, I'm gonna do it, boys. Watch me burn.

• 10:12Sam Fragoso?

  That line, I'm gonna do it, boys. Watch me burn, could also double as like, I'm gonna go to Los Angeles and be an actor.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  It very well could.

• 10:20Sam Fragoso?

  Watch me burn.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  And that was why I painted on my jacket as I rode my fat 1979 Kawasaki to Champaign-Urbana to make my fortune.

• 10:31Sam Fragoso?

  I think it's kind of amazing that, that a piece of your past could show up in present work. Work that, as you said before, you woke up in the middle of the night before it came out thinking, am I ever gonna be able to make something like this? Am I gonna remain, as you said, a frustrated artist? And so, once you're on the other side of that, playing this part of Jinx, you know, who is a recovering addict, I think he got hooked on pills at first, after he suffered an injury, he was a fighter, he got hurt in the ring. Now, as, as I remember from our last two conversations, you're someone

• 11:08Sam Fragoso?

  in your personal life, who to me seems like a model of moderation and restraint. But is there any area that tips over into an unhealthy place for you?

• 11:21Speaker 00

  How dare you? That's, that's a very good question. Hmm. The, the closest I come, I, I sort of figured out in hindsight, when I, when I moved in with Meghan and began plying my throat to one day bed her as my, as my legal property.

• 11:47Sam Fragoso?

  One day a week.

• 11:48Speaker 00

  That's right. I, I realized in hindsight, I was very hedonistic in my late twenties. I was smoking a lot of cigarettes and marijuana and drinking a lot of alcohol, partly for escapism and out of like depression of not sure what direction my life was taking.

• 12:06Sam Fragoso?

  This was in your, your early to mid twenties, you move here from Chicago.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:10Sam Fragoso?

  You're in a Silver Lake apartment.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, we called it Rancho Relaxo, was, was the name of our place. And, and when I moved in with Meghan and my best friend, Pat, met his wife and they moved in together, we kind of figured out, we were graduating into adulthood or attempting to do so. And so, since then, I've, I've taken Meghan's example gladly, we have a great teacher-student relationship, to live more cleanly and enjoy my desserts as desserts, not as entrees. Don't have cake all the time, as it were. I mean, so to answer your question, when I

• 12:48Speaker 00

  do fall to the sin of excess, it's usually with food, usually eating something delicious to the point of pain.

• 12:59Sam Fragoso?

  And Tums.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, cognitively saying, don't do it.

• 13:05Sam Fragoso?

  I know.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  But, and then, and then the piece of pizza says.

• 13:08Sam Fragoso?

  You kind of have to.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  You're not gonna leave me sit here.

• 13:11Sam Fragoso?

  Though, I, I want to push on one thing, which is every time we've exchanged a text message, you are always away from home, on a job, working, working, working, working.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Ladies and gentlemen, this is how he does it. You're right. You have researched my shit. And you have perceived this very clearly. My vice is, I can't stop saying yes to fun jobs. I'm a little, I'm, I'm surprised that I'm still surprised by you. Because I've, I'm always impressed by your work. But that's absolutely the, the excess that I'm dealing with, when I'm dealing with excess is, I mean, I was just in Chicago doing a musical with Meghan called Ice Boy, which we're hoping will be in New York in a year. Ice Boy, exclamation point, starring Meghan Mullally.

• 14:08Sam Fragoso?

  It's at the Goodman Theater. It sold out, apparently, like, it sold out the most seats. You were telling me this, like, it was insane.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  It was the end of their 100th season, and we broke their record for ticket sales. It's crazy. It's really crazy.

• 14:22Sam Fragoso?

  It's a long ways away from doing carpentry and woodworking at Steppenwolf when you're 20 years old.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. It was, it was really wonderful. And Meghan and I had both worked there. 30 years ago for me, 40 years ago for her. But while we're there, someone sends me an email and says, will you narrate this documentary about beavers? Now, what the fuck are you supposed to say to that? Like, how do you say anything but you're goddamn right, I will narrate your beaver documentary?

• 14:54Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know if you need to do the beavers. I think the real question is, Nick.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  I don't need to, I get to.

• 14:59Sam Fragoso?

  You get to. So, so that's the question. Is overworking a compulsion for you?

• 15:03Speaker 00

  I, I can't honestly, I'm too busy, honestly, to answer that question. I, I really, I mean, I feel like I am paying attention to my wife and my household first and foremost, and my family in Manuka, Illinois. I mean, I, I think that absolutely, you're hitting the nail on the head, that that's my tendency. And given my druthers, I would just 24/7, 360/65, be hosting beaver documentaries.

• 15:33Sam Fragoso?

  And, and speaking of jobs you've taken, you recently did a four-episode mini-series on WNYC. I thought maybe you'd want to read this for us.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  I'd be happy to. Let me, let me read this, and then we're gonna talk about Wendell Berry.

• 15:46Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, great.

• 15:46Speaker 00

  Which is all, if you ever run into me at a party, I'm just gonna try and get to Wendell Berry as soon as I can. Because then I'll stay at the party. This is from 1973. A warning to my readers. Do not think me gentle because I speak in praise of gentleness, or elegant because I honor the grace that keeps this world. I am a man crude as any, gross of speech, intolerant, stubborn, angry, full of fits and furies. That I may have

• 16:26Speaker 00

  spoken well at times is not natural. A wonder is what it is.

• 16:33Sam Fragoso?

  I love that piece.

• 16:36Speaker 00

  I love it so much. And so, so the name of my series is called, A Wonder Is What It Is. So, part of the conversation I love about Wendell Berry is simply, I was raised Catholic, and my siblings and I, and my mom and dad are still very commendable, staunch servants of St. Mary's Church in Manuka, Illinois. And I was like the captain of the altar boys, and I was the teenager who cut the grass. Like, I was the, the church, I was the bat boy.

• 17:09Sam Fragoso?

  You were the good kid.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  I was, on paper.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  And my siblings and I got it. We went to church and we went to catechism, our Sunday school, and we were like, okay, we get it. You've imparted the values you wanted to. Now I don't want to go to church anymore. It's a bummer. It's not, it's, you're getting people together and you're not moving me. And so when I began to read Wendell Berry, and especially read him talk about the creation, speaking of spirituality, he's saying, I don't really go in for church because it's run by people. And the things people do, I don't always agree with. But when I'm in the creation, when I'm out in the woods, suddenly I can understand what is holy.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  And I said, now that I can get moved by, like that makes me, gives me a holy feeling.

• 18:02Sam Fragoso?

  He writes, "I'm a man crude as any, gross of speech, intolerant, stubborn, angry, full of fits and furies." And I've been thinking, because you've quoted that piece before. And I just keep wondering, when was the last time Nick Offerman was intolerant, stubborn, or angry?

• 18:25Speaker 00

  I just drove here across Los Angeles. So I was all of those at least once. By the way, while listening to a Cubs game where it wasn't going great. So I was full of fits and furies. But I mean, I've been with Wendell a bunch. And this, this, you know, sagacious, like philosopher king to me. And he'd be the first to be like, say, I'm a grumpy old son of a bitch. Like, I know these things. I've been writing these books and filling them with, you know, with this, this knowledge that he would say he is bringing forward from Alder Leopold and other agrarian thinkers before him. As, as, by the way, also, when you sit at lunch with Wendell,

• 19:10Speaker 00

  he will whip out a Macbeth monologue. He is, he's a man of letters. He's erudite.

• 19:17Sam Fragoso?

  But also intolerant, gross of speech.

• 19:19Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. He's still, he's still a guy, you know, trying to get his sheep into the barn.

• 19:25Sam Fragoso?

  And I still, I still don't know, besides the Cubs, which, you know, when do they not cause frustration? In your day to day, I do want to know what bothers you?

• 19:36Speaker 00

  There's, there's so much that, that does that to me. I mean, injustice, misinformation, all, you know, all the skullduggery and ways in which modern profiteers succeed hand over fist at the expense of the majority of good, honest, hardworking people in our country, the people that brought me up. And, and to sort of lace a bunch of this together, I want to do a little math with you. Like you asked me, like, what's your, how do you overindulge? And the answer is, I get asked, I get the opportunity to do too many delicious things.

• 20:17Speaker 00

  And when I first read Wendell Berry in my twenties, I, I said, this speaks to me. This is the most holy writing. Like this is Shakespearean to me. This is the Bible to me.

• 20:28Sam Fragoso?

  This is the thing you were looking for in church?

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. Eventually I got in touch with him and his family. His daughter, Mary, runs the Berry Center now. And I'm a staunch supporter of them because I'll never be a writer or thinker like him. But I have the ability to get people to watch me do a cartwheel. And I say, by the way, here's a quick Wendell Berry poem. Did you like that cartwheel? And so that feels like a vocation or a calling to me. And as I proceed through this life, I can then come on your excellent podcast and talk about Wendell Berry. So how am I supposed to say no to that? I can tell you this, when Meghan and I, or my best friend, Pat and I, or my family and I,

• 21:14Speaker 00

  get to talking about the inju, the ills of the world, the things that make us mad, which are so easy. Like when W got reelected, I was like, oh, right. There are people who don't think the same as me.

• 21:28Sam Fragoso?

  Many of whom you've played in a lot of films and TV shows.

• 21:31Speaker 00

  For sure. And many of whom I've worked alongside and love because they're my neighbors. And I understand that that's the only thing to do. That, that, if, if I want to, if I want to help, the only thing to do is say, I'm, I'm going, until you hurt me or my family and my goods, I'm going to say, boy, I sure disagree with that. But we're working together to make this neighborhood, this county, this country, safe and clean. Obviously, we're, you know, we're failing in many ways. But when things irk me, I, I don't know, I have the ability to exhale and say, all right, let's just focus. I mean, it's, again, it's all tied to, that's part of maybe why I have a compulsion

• 22:15Speaker 00

  to make good things.

• 22:17Sam Fragoso?

  So I want to talk about those good things that you referenced earlier. And we'll do that after the break. That's coming up next with Nick Offerman. As fall approaches and holiday plans begin to unfold, I've been thinking about my trip home to Chicago last year to a moderator friend's book event. This is just before Thanksgiving. So Chicago was understandably very, very cold and transforming into the winter. My whole family actually ended up attending that event, which made the whole night a lot more special. And after the show, we piled into the car, drove to the city together and got some food. And there's one moment I remember in particular where we drove past this movie theater. It's called The Music Box. And it's a place I spent a lot of my time as a teenager and childhood.

• 23:00Sam Fragoso?

  But seeing it again with fresh eyes, all those years later, made me feel connected to the city in a whole new way. This kind of experience gets me thinking about how places and locations provide connection points in unexpected ways. That's why when I find myself leaving home in LA for any stretch of time, I've been thinking about listing my space on Airbnb and giving someone who's visiting my area a chance to connect to my neighborhood by discovering the local spots I frequent day to day. It's a practical and smart way to make use of my space when I'm gone, rather than just letting it sit empty. Plus, the extra income it brings can help offset some of my own travel costs. If you've got upcoming travel plans, your home could be working for you.

• 23:41Sam Fragoso?

  And your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host. MUBI is a global film company bringing great cinema to the world and to you. Everything is handpicked with an emphasis on filmmakers and movies worth discovering, or in some cases, rediscovering. One film worth mentioning is Amoros Perros. The landmark debut from filmmaker Alejandro G. Iñárritu is returning in a new 4K restoration. Set in Mexico City, the film begins with a fatal car crash that connects three very different lives. A story of brothers caught in a love triangle, a man who gives up everything for a beautiful model, and a hitman confronting his past. Iñárritu's nonlinear, multi-perspective approach to storytelling

• 24:26Sam Fragoso?

  was radical when the film premiered more than 25 years ago. Its influence, though, can still be seen across film and television today. To experience Amoros Perros and more of the best of cinema, you can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com/talkeasy. That's MUBI, M-U-B-I dot com slash talkeasy for a whole month of great cinema for free. I think the best clothes you own are probably the ones you spend the least amount of time thinking about. They're just there when you need them. The sweater that goes with everything. The perfect pair of pants or the tee you always reach for first. That's what I've always liked about Quince. They focus on everyday staples, made with premium materials like organic cotton,

• 25:08Sam Fragoso?

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• 25:52Sam Fragoso?

  which allows them to price everything 50 to 80% less than similar brands. So you're paying for the quality of the materials rather than a big brand markup. It's not just clothing. Quince brings that same approach to hotel-quality bedding and bath, kitchen essentials, and thoughtfully designed furniture, well-made pieces for everyday living. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. You can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Talk Easy. It's really the best way to support the show. Enjoy.

• 26:34Sam Fragoso?

  MUBI is a global film company bringing great cinema to the world and to you. Everything at MUBI is handpicked with an emphasis on visionary filmmakers and movies worth discovering. One new movie is called Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma from writer-director Jane Seanbrun, who made the film I Saw the TV Glow. The film stars Hannah Einbinder and Gillian Anderson. It follows a young director tasked with resurrecting Camp Miasma, a once-beloved slasher franchise that after years of sequels has fallen out of favor. Looking for inspiration, she visits the reclusive actress who starred in the original film. But what begins at attempt to revive the franchise soon pulls the two women into a blood-soaked world of desire, fear, and delirium.

• 27:18Sam Fragoso?

  It's a world-expanding, genre-bending movie for one of the most distinctive filmmakers working today. Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma is now streaming exclusively on MUBI. You can try MUBI free for 30 days at MUBI.com/talkeasy. That's MUBI, M-U-B-I dot com slash talkeasy for a whole month of great cinema for free. Coming back.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  You might add a hat, or I know you change angles for the ads, but maybe a hat or a pair of funny glasses.

• 27:51Sam Fragoso?

  A prop.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  So that, like, when I'm in the gym, I'm like, because I'm hitting 30, your people don't want to hear this.

• 28:02Sam Fragoso?

  No, they do.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  When you're jumping, and you can't tell, because then when you come back, now you're asking Greta Lee a question again. But I'm like, okay, now I have to go back to make sure I don't miss. Also, the music hits are so delicious, you're bummed if you miss one. So like, even if you're like, clearly, you're just back in, like, I still gotta catch that little trumpet.

• 28:27Sam Fragoso?

  So you want something to discern and distinguish between the two?

• 28:30Speaker 00

  That's my two cents.

• 28:31Sam Fragoso?

  I think you may be on to something. Hat, I don't know if I can pull that off.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  What about just a little placard that says hashtag ad?

• 28:40Sam Fragoso?

  I'm not sure the sponsors would love that.

• 28:41Speaker 00

  Or just a money sign.

• 28:43Sam Fragoso?

  We'll workshop this thing. I think it's a good idea.

• 28:46Speaker 00

  Take it or leave it.

• 28:47Sam Fragoso?

  I want to talk about this triptych of recent films that all seem to be in conversation with one another. There's Origin, where you play a MAGA hat-wearing plumber. Civil War, playing the president of an authoritarian federal government. And Sovereign, as an activist who travels from town to town to spread the gospel of anti-government. Now, we can go in any direction from these, but as someone who comes from a farming community with politics that probably differ from a lot of Hollywood, do these roles speak to a larger idea that you want to communicate in 2026? Like, is there a through line in these parts that you understand?

• 29:30Speaker 00

  I think my answer to that is, I love working for people who think like Ava DuVernay and Alex Garland and Christian Swegel, who, one of the things that's rough about this business is, this is a sidebar, but my movie Sovereign, which most of you haven't seen, you should see. Now, I get it, when you see the trailer, it looks like an advertisement for January 6th. It looks like what was just on the news. Like, you see the trailer and you're like, this is the subject matter I want to watch a movie to escape from. I don't want to see what's... But Christian Swegel and Nick Misery produced it.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  It is so beautiful. It is so moving, despite my participation. This kid Jacob Tremblay from Canada plays my son, and Dennis Quaid plays the chief of police, and Thomas Mann plays his son. I don't like to watch things that I'm in. I do to make sure, you know, my batting stance is up to snuff, as it were. I went and watched this thing four times in the theater, because I couldn't get enough of how moving it was. So the answer to your question is, yes, there is something I hope to say, but I don't have the wherewithal. I'm not someone who creates movies or shows.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  I'm someone who serves those people, hopefully in the service of wonderful, genius, beautiful hearts like Ava, Alex, and Christian.

• 31:05Sam Fragoso?

  And yet, the work itself, I think, completely complicates that mission statement, especially in this film Sovereign, where you play the father, and father to a son, as the two of you are part of this sovereign citizens movement, which leads the two of them to clash with courts, local police, and other arms of the state that Jerry renders illegitimate and unconstitutional. And so, can we take a look at what that looks like for you?

• 31:31Speaker 00

  Let's take a look. Who all here has a birth certificate? Raise your hands. Okay, now, how many of you have actually looked at it, actually read the name on the paper? It's in all caps, right? Why is that? What other names do they put in all caps? Corporations. Corporations, exactly. Because the name on the birth certificate isn't the same thing as the flesh and blood. It's a corporate name. It's a corporate fiction.

• 32:00Speaker 03

  It's a straw man.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  It's a straw man. You got it. So anytime someone says, "I owe them money," the first thing I ask them is, "Who owes you? Is it the flesh and blood? Or is it the straw man? The guy with the social security number like they talked about in the Bible? The book of Genesis? Mark of the beast? If you say, "I owe you," then in my opinion, I say, "You already owe me." You owe me evidence of that debt. You owe me evidence of that contract. So, let's say you say, "Okay, come on, Jerry. You know that it was for those boxes of Girl Scout cookies that you bought from my niece. I can still ask you to prove it. Prove that I ate those cookies.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Because every time you make a claim against me, you already owe me. At the bare minimum, you owe me an explanation."

• 32:57Sam Fragoso?

  So coming back, there's an anger to that part.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  God, I'm sorry. Jacob Tremblay is so gorgeous in this movie. There's a scene towards the end that just, even just thinking about it really chokes me up. But yes, there's an anger to that part.

• 33:23Sam Fragoso?

  Well, we don't have to go to the anger. Clearly, there's something else.

• 33:26Speaker 00

  I mean, what you're driving at, and I'm happy to talk about, because I love being part of the conversation of masculinity. When I read this script by Christian, I said, "I gotta do this." Because what I love about this is, it's humanizing. It makes me look at something like January 6th, and instead of saying, "What is with all these insane people? Like, what the fuck is wrong with these people?" Now I see how they are, they've been preyed upon by lending, like, you know, I mean, Jerry is a sovereign citizen. It's not dissimilar from like QAnon or other misinformed groups who are trying to find

• 34:10Speaker 00

  their way around their hardships. In the case of sovereign citizens, they're like, you know what? Your state constitution or your federal constitution, those are open to interpretation. So I don't need a driver's license, and, you know, all of this.

• 34:28Sam Fragoso?

  The license is just an avatar.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. And in order to have a functioning society, that's why libertarianism can never work. Like, on paper, the ideas are great, but it's going to just lead to anarchy, because everyone is then open to interpret things, and whoever has the most guns ends up winning, and that's a dumb idea.

• 34:47Sam Fragoso?

  That would be a tough realization for Ron Swanson.

• 34:51Speaker 00

  I suppose, I suppose. But I like to think, as a Mike Schur character, that he would listen to reason eventually.

• 34:58Sam Fragoso?

  And what's the part of the film, or part of this conversation, that makes your glasses fog up?

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Just that when I, when I read this, I said,

• 35:15Speaker 00

  what's so frustrating in this day and age?

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Are all the good people who I, I think really, I mean, most people are good. Most people would, would read Wendell Berry and get what he's talking about. But there's such a large percentage of them that are being fed bad information and propaganda and hatred.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  That, that I've talked to like in my hometown and they shake their heads and say, I know you, I know your folks, like, I know you're good people, but you're, you're brainwashed. Like, I'm sorry to tell you, I heard it from Sean Hannity and I'm telling you, you're brainwashed. And you're, and you're like, well, what do I, what do I do now? That's so crazy making and frustrating to, to watch, you know, the, the smugness with which people profit by, by espousing hatred is really upsetting.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  And so to see something like this or read this script and say, okay, this guy is just trying his best to like raise his kid, he's trying to do a good job.

• 36:27Sam Fragoso?

  He's lost his wife, he's 18 years sober, likes to gamble probably a little too much, and he's trying to make it work.

• 36:37Speaker 00

  He's trying desperately to make it work and a quick doffing of the cap to the great Martha Plimpton, who I have loved for many years. She's incredible in this as well. What, what you come to understand is this guy, his misdeeds are the result of him reacting to be preyed upon by lenders, basically. And, and so much of our country is in that situation where they're under the gun, prices are not going down, things are more expensive, the, the messaging is very confusing, you know?

• 37:16Speaker 00

  2026, we're being told, science was wrong, we don't need vaccines, they're against you. The doctor, you know, like all, all of, all of the misdirection that's trying to pull our attention away from the way you're actually being robbed of your income infuriates me. And I would rather work on something or, or play the, the plumber in Ava's origin.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  It was, it was really weird to wear a MAGA hat for a role. It was really upsetting. I was in Savannah, Georgia. And when I would step outside between takes, I would put a Cubs hat over the MAGA hat. Cause I didn't even want to, imagine somebody across the street getting a picture of me. That would be so embarrassing. I mean, and I wrote a chapter about it in my fifth book, that I don't think the wearers of MAGA hats, I said, listen, just so you understand, I, I could meet you at a barbecue place and we'd get along just fine. If you're wearing that hat, we think you're announcing that you're racist. Like we, the world thinks you're evil.

• 38:34Speaker 00

  Like you're, you're announcing that you're down with the Nazis.

• 38:38Sam Fragoso?

  I, I don't think the people wearing that hat believe the words you just said.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  Of course not. Of course not. And that's exactly what angers me is like, I bet you're probably a good person, but this flag you're flying, all of us that want healthcare for you, among others, we think that you're announcing evil intentions.

• 39:00Sam Fragoso?

  It's funny, we had a fraction of this conversation last time you came on because it was around the release of Civil War. You sang, "I bet you are a good person," to the people who don a MAGA hat. I can hear them going, who are you to determine that I'm a good person?

• 39:24Sam Fragoso?

  And I, and I think that is, that is part of the frustration that I, I have seen in talking to people on the right who go, wait a minute, your system, which, which legitimized and sanitized Harvey Weinstein, that was deeply racist and segregated for a long, long time within Hollywood, that, that is often preaching on high while paying men more than women, a, a wage gap that is not getting better, who's trying to espouse these views as if they are the moral arbiter.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 39:55Sam Fragoso?

  We have made that mistake, I think, for a long time. And I know it's not, that's not what you're trying to do, but I can hear.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  Right. And I really appreciate that because I, I would hate to, to ever come across as sanctimonious.

• 40:10Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  But that's, that's the dipshit part where we're all gonna fuck it up together.

• 40:14Sam Fragoso?

  Yes.

• 40:15Speaker 00

  Like.

• 40:16Sam Fragoso?

  Can we accept that as the question?

• 40:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 40:18Sam Fragoso?

  I'm bringing this up because look at where you come from.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 40:23Sam Fragoso?

  Go to that town in Illinois, anyone who wants to Google this, go Google it. And I'm thinking about these people who've known your father, who's the mayor of this town, who like you, who grew up with you, who watched your work and now go, what the fuck happened, Nick Offerman?

• 40:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:39Sam Fragoso?

  What happened to brainwashed, libtard Nick Offerman as they accuse you of eating children? And I do wonder, like, the kid who was in the church, in the service, who mowed the lawns, who know those families, for those families to come back to you and some members of them to come back to you and say, I don't know what's happened to you. I do want to know how you process that.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Well, it's, it is, it is tricky. I mean, it's, it's lonely in a lot of ways because there are people from my past that, that I created my sense of humor together with, you know, kids growing up with and that, that I wish, that I'm like, man, I wish you could see this now, because this is what we always talked about, that I dreamed I would get to do. And I'm, you know, doing this work.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  A few years ago, I did a Christmas movie with Eddie Murphy and I was like, oh my God, I wish I could call my friends from junior high, be like, I'm doing a movie with Eddie Murphy, but, but they don't like me anymore.

• 41:50Sam Fragoso?

  Because they think you believe want.

• 41:52Speaker 00

  I don't know, I don't know. I mean, that's the thing, the, there's such a, there's such a disconnect. I'm presuming that whatever Fox News tells them, you know, quote unquote, we believe, you know, I, cause I want something, something trans in there, some things, you know, I, I want all of their kids to turn gay, I, whatever, I don't even, you know, it's so dismissible and weirdly ridiculous.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  It's hard to, to stomach or it's hard to countenance.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  But that is why, that's what I mean when I say, I don't have a great overarching, I also don't, I don't have the vision, you know, I, I wish I was Dickensian and I could just write these incredible stories that, and people put the book down and say, ah, I guess, I guess I should be decent to everybody.

• 42:51Sam Fragoso?

  That we all wish we could be George Saunders a little bit.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  I suppose, yeah. I mean, but that's what I love about George and Jeff Tweedy of, of the band Wilco. We have our three-way bromance. It's what we talk about together is, is this, is like, how can we, you know, engender empathy in this frustrating world? We are, we're all the guy in that poem, we're all full of fits and furies. We share our frustrations quite often on this level, but we also, you know, the, the thing that binds us to each other is, is the way in which we're inspired by one another to fill our work with, you know, with that sensibility.

• 43:34Sam Fragoso?

  That sensibility is embedded in that beautiful performance of yours in The Last of Us. And to bring it back to this masculinity conversation, Ben Shapiro has, has gone on the record to talk in interesting terms about you and your work in that show. And I suspect there are people back home who saw this clip. And so I want our viewers to see it as well. This is Ben Shapiro.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  So the entire plot of the episode is that Ron Swanson, Nick Offerman, but he actually plays Ron Swanson, but Ron Swanson who likes to nail dudes. So Ron Swanson, a libertarian who hates the government and lives in his basement and is a prepper, but also is gay. Ron Swanson, during the zombie apocalypse, he's having himself a grand old time. For some reason, his town is completely not hit by any of the zombies at all, is like completely left alone. And so he goes out and gets all these resources and then he builds a nice fence around his place and he sets up all of these booby traps. So if anybody shows up, whether they're raiders, whether they're zombies, they're gonna get killed. And then somehow another dude ends up like falling into one of his traps and they meet and they bang and they end up becoming a couple.

• 44:43Speaker 04

  Okay, so you, you can see it here, right?

• 44:48Speaker 04

  There, there's, there's gay Ron Swanson and it's complete with like sex scenes and the whole thing. And the entire episode has no zombies, no real threat, and it is about two gay dudes who meet and have a relationship in which one grows strawberries for the other. And then they die, but not being killed by zombies or under threat. One dies, he's, he gets cancer and he decides to essentially euthanasia himself and gay Ron Swanson decides that he is also going to, to commit suicide at the same time because Romeo and Juliet or Romeo and Romeo in this particular case.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Holy shit. Was, first of all, was it necessary to do that at 1.5 times speed?

• 45:43Speaker 00

  I mean, that poor guy. Well, that's crazy. I don't, that's the most Ben Shapiro I've ever seen. And there's a very good reason for that. I mean, I don't know what to say. I'm embarrassed for his reading comprehension. He get, I think he got eight things wrong in his recap. Besides his rampant homophobia. But, but why don't you go?

• 46:13Sam Fragoso?

  I don't spend a ton of time with Ben Shapiro.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  That was insane. I mean,

• 46:18Sam Fragoso?

  you seem completely in shock watching that.

• 46:20Speaker 00

  That it was, it was, I had read that somewhere, like I read what Ben Shapiro said.

• 46:26Sam Fragoso?

  Gay Ron Swanson.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Then I wrote a song that I was performing on tour. And I would preface it by saying, like, I was gonna write a joke about this, but Ben Shapiro questioned my masculinity. And I can't write a better joke than that. Like, I just don't, you know, I don't know what to. That is so powerful. That's like a Joe Rogan clip or something that's just so dumb and so wrong. But, but it's, then it's really upsetting to understand how powerful that probably is and how many people.

• 47:11Sam Fragoso?

  It's reached.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  It's reached and would be in agreement with it. And they'd be like, oh, no, not Ron Swanson, or whatever. Agreement they would have.

• 47:19Sam Fragoso?

  And so what do you make of that?

• 47:20Speaker 00

  I think the key to, this goes back to your initial question. The key to my disposition is, I don't.

• 47:27Sam Fragoso?

  You don't make of it?

• 47:28Speaker 00

  I don't. I can't. All I can do, instead of trying to answer it. That's the thing, is I think the billionaires, I think Elon wants us, wants me to go on social media and snark back at all of them. And then, and then suddenly I'm 90 and I die, and I haven't read any Wendell Berry poems on the radio.

• 47:52Sam Fragoso?

  And yet, the amount of people taking that in.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:55Sam Fragoso?

  I guess, like, I'm trying to think, in those moments when you are frustrated, like, what upsets you more? That A, he questioned your masculinity? Or B, the right has claimed that you are part of the liberal elite that sometimes eats children? I mean, this is where we're at in 2026.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  Sure. I mean,

• 48:16Sam Fragoso?

  and by the way, how have you stayed out of jail this long?

• 48:19Speaker 00

  I know, I know it. I haven't, actually, is the answer.

• 48:24Sam Fragoso?

  That's why it's been two years since you came on last.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  Um, I don't know what I can do or say. Let's, let's say there are 500 million people that, that are like, love Tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro. And they're like, agree with this and, and eat this hand over fist. I don't know what I can do or say that's not going to invite their, their ranker and then be like, oh, of course, that's what you would say, gay Ron Swanson, or whatever. And so I do my very best to, I completely don't engage anymore with any of that. And instead, just take a deep breath. I mean, I don't know what to do with that.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  It's, he might as, it might as well be Goebbels. I mean, it might as well be David Duke on the pulpit, or any, any purveyor of hatred.

• 49:24Sam Fragoso?

  And yet, that character that you played in Sovereign, on the pulpit, ranting, tons of hatred, tons of frustration. The fact that you can still get there, of course, within the confines of a film. It's not like you don't understand it.

• 49:39Speaker 00

  I understand it fully. That's, that's the thing. That's what Wendell's poem is about. Don't think I'm above that. We're all that, one way or another. My, the reason I maintain my disposition is, I completely, I'm aware of that. I maintain an awareness of what they're saying. And then I just keep making my stuff. I, I, my last book, Little Woodchucks, is an anti-AI. It's a book to teach your little woodchucks to make things with tools. It's encouraging us all not to let our apps run our lives or robots.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  But look each other in the eye and live as humans and make things for ourselves. And that's the whole point of living. Like, otherwise, what are we doing here?

• 50:30Sam Fragoso?

  Well, after the break, why don't we talk about the things that make life worth living? And we'll do that after a couple ads without a hat, though. That's coming up next with Nick Offerman. I think most of us could give a pretty good estimate of what we spend in a month. At least, I thought I could before Monarch. Here's the thing, there's a difference between having a general sense of your finances and actually seeing everything laid out in front of you. What you're spending, what you're saving, and of course, how those numbers are changing over time. That's one of the things I've most appreciated about Monarch. Monarch brings my accounts, investments, saving goals, and spending together in one place. And increasingly, I use it to look ahead. If I'm planning a trip or considering a larger purchase,

• 51:13Sam Fragoso?

  I can map out the cost and see how it fits into my goals before I actually spend the money. I also like Monarch's weekly recap that flags changes I might otherwise miss, like a spending increase or an upcoming expense, without requiring me to constantly check everything myself. Over time, that's changed my relationship with my money and my spending and saving. I'm not just looking at what I already spent. I'm using that information to make better decisions about what comes next. Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code TALKEASY at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch or half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code TALKEASY.

• 51:55Sam Fragoso?

  I've learned from making this show that the more moving parts you can put in one place, the better. Because once your work starts requiring five different websites, three different passwords, a couple subscriptions, and a spreadsheet you're afraid to close, you end up spending more time managing the work than actually doing it. Starting a business can very quickly become the same thing. That's where Shopify comes in. Shopify puts the tools you need to run a business in one platform. Their templates and tools can help you build a great looking storefront without actually knowing how to code. And Shopify Checkout makes purchasing simple and returning customers can check out in a single click. And if you get stuck, well, there's Sidekick, Shopify's built-in assistant, which can help you build, troubleshoot, and keep things moving. The idea is pretty simple.

• 52:38Sam Fragoso?

  Instead of cobbling together 10 different systems, Shopify gives you one place to manage your entire business so you can spend more time actually growing it. If you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.com/talkeasy to start your free trial today. That's right, start your free trial at Shopify.com/talkeasy. That's Shopify.com/talkeasy. Coming back, I'm still thinking about Ben Shapiro, which is maybe.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  I'm sorry to make you.

• 53:11Sam Fragoso?

  Good God. That was, that was, that was quite, that was quite an interesting journey.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  It's quite something. And the, I mean, what I've long since learned is to not be activated by it, like, to let it go by and analyze it as best I can. And I just want to say, I don't want to presume that the entire world has seen the episode we're talking about. But it was, with all due respect to Craig Mason, who wrote it, and Peter Hore, who directed it, and Murray Bartlett, who was my partner in it. It was quite celebrated as, like, regardless of my own participation in it, it was celebrated as like, an incredible, an incredibly effective

• 53:58Speaker 00

  piece of storytelling, like, the greatest dot, dot, dot. It was lauded with superlatives. And exactly the opposite way of his reaction, like, it's.

• 54:10Sam Fragoso?

  And you also won an Emmy, so that should be added.

• 54:13Speaker 00

  It's, it's true. I'm very, I'm incredibly grateful because they needed a guy who could use a shovel. And there are only three of us in Hollywood. Harrison Ford passed, and Jane Lynch was not available. And so it was very lucky that that job fell to me. But I just, I mean, just to add that context of like, this thing that he's talking about is like, an incredibly agreed upon, beautiful piece of storytelling. Like, it's unquestionably one of the greatest love stories of the year, if not more.

• 54:52Sam Fragoso?

  You know, I was thinking about Shapiro's comment about masculinity in the bathroom.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  Go on.

• 55:02Sam Fragoso?

  It's a setup of a good joke.

• 55:05Sam Fragoso?

  But it made me think, of all the straight men in the world, you're one of the few public figures that I think people would be happy

• 55:16Sam Fragoso?

  if you procreated. Has that ever been something you're interested in?

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Sure. I mean, you know, it never occurred to me, my degree of masculinity never occurred to me until Parks and Rec hit and people, among other, began to talk about me in, among other things, with regard to my masculinity and my virility and, you know. And suddenly, I was, you know, a symbol of machismo, of a certain stripe. And so I'm glad to be, you know, a guy who can split wood and change a truck tire and also can do that episode of The Last of Us and understand that it's all just good work.

• 56:01Sam Fragoso?

  And did you want to pass that down to children?

• 56:04Speaker 00

  Well, I come from a wonderful, big family. I always figured I would continue that tradition, but it simply wasn't in the cards. Meghan was 40 when we met. And we kind of dabbled in it for a couple of years and then

• 56:21Speaker 00

  kind of made the decision to remain our own children and to keep ourselves free to like, travel the world, as it were, and, you know, I have a lot of other children in my life that I greatly enjoy.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  And, you know, it's the kind of thing that I am happy, I'm very happy with my journey. And so it doesn't occur to me much.

• 56:52Sam Fragoso?

  You don't have any regrets about not having kids?

• 56:55Speaker 00

  I don't. I mean, it's funny, part of my disposition thing is I don't have any great ambition.

• 57:02Sam Fragoso?

  That's bullshit.

• 57:03Speaker 00

  It's not bullshit. I'd never have, like.

• 57:05Sam Fragoso?

  Are you kidding me? How could you sit here and say that with a straight face when you've just accepted the role of narrator in the Beaver documentary?

• 57:14Speaker 00

  I mean, I think I understand that great things like that can come to me, I think only because I don't strive for them. I don't even, like, when I wanted to become an actor, I just, there's a famous, I'm sure I've mentioned this before to you, there's a famous video from my childhood when I was maybe like 11, at a fishing cabin, when it was on like a Super 8 camera. And it's, everyone's diving to get out of the shot. And then it lands on me and I'm pointing at myself and sticking my tongue out. I'm like, you got, you want showbiz? Right here, motherfucker. Like, I just had it in me where I was like, and even, and that's what I did for my college audition,

• 57:59Speaker 00

  was just point at myself and stick my tongue out. It was like, get a load of this guy. But I mean, that was my ambition, was like, I want to do, I want to move people the way I've been moved by Taxi, or The Carol Burnett Show, or Jackie Gleason. I don't have, I don't want to be a Jedi. Like, I'd love to play a wizard someday. I'd love to play a pirate, but like, I'm, I have so far surpassed any dream I had for myself that I just try and mind my manners and like, maintain my values. And, and then this David E. Kelly Show calls, or Mike Makowski calls with Death by Lightning, like.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  And so, that's it. I'm like, okay, great. This, I'm gonna do my best on this and then maybe somebody will want me for another one.

• 58:49Sam Fragoso?

  But the ambition that came from being a ham, I mean, I think it was actualized in Parks and Recreation in particular, where people first really discovered you.

• 59:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:00Sam Fragoso?

  Like, when you think of Ron Swanson, it's in the canon, in the spirit of those shows that you mentioned, the Jackie Gleason, the Carol Burnett, you know, it is part of TV history. What does Ron Swanson and Parks and Recreation mean to you in 2026?

• 59:19Speaker 00

  Boy, that's a big question. It was, it was life-changing. Like, I, my nose, my gut, my organic, like, just sort of following my nose in my life.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  I became a talented carpenter just because I wasn't a good actor yet. And I had to make a living and I wanted to be in the theater. And that turned into woodworking and then, and the theater habit in Los, I moved to LA and I met Meghan 26 years ago. We've been together, married 23. And I mean, all of these things coalesced in a way that never was part of any plan. I just was like, okay, here's how I can make money while I can still audition. And now I'm, now I've moved in with Meghan Mulally, who's about to win her first Emmy for Karen Walker. Speaking of the pantheon of great TV legends.

• 1:00:16Speaker 00

  And like, I couldn't believe my, my life was so crazy then. It's like, I can't believe my life. I'm married to Meghan Mulally. I have a wood shop. I was just on Deadwood, or I was just on the West Wing, like, for a whole week. This is insane. This is far beyond my wildest dreams, and that's sincere. But I still, and then there were still little inklings of like, but I might, I might get to contribute more. So when Parks and Rec happened, sort of everything had been leading up to Mike Schur and Greg Daniels and the world saying, okay, it's time, you've arrived. Like, your life actually starts now.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  And it really feels like that. So it was a gateway to a full realization where Mike and his writers

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  taught me how valuable I was. And everything that they taught me about collaboration and about just the decency at the workplace. They shattered so many misconceptions about showbiz, about the dark side of showbiz. Like, what Mike Schur and his producer Morgan Sackett, who's still a bestie friend of mine, and Amy and all that group, what they taught me was the opposite of what you're saying about Hollywood and Harvey Weinstein and all that. There's also a very good side to that, where it's, we can use our powers for good

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  to make a show like Parks and Rec, that's as funny as anything you've seen, but also has a wonderful message that's really moving and optimistic and liberal and progressive.

• 1:02:02Sam Fragoso?

  And at the tail end of that run, season seven, Leslie and Ron. As the show was coming to a close, their lives have diverged, they moved to different places. And I want to sit with a scene between you and Amy Poehler.

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  Shit.

• 1:02:19Speaker 00

  Oh, boy.

• 1:02:23Speaker 05

  You were going to ask me something. That's why you wanted to have lunch.

• 1:02:29Speaker 05

  Ron, you were going.

• 1:02:30Speaker 00

  I was gonna ask you for a job. In the federal government. Just saying it out loud feels dirty.

• 1:02:41Speaker 05

  You missed your friends. And you wanted to come up to the third floor and work with us again. I can't even imagine how hard that must have been for you. God, why didn't I see that? Ron, I am so sorry. I should have been a better friend to you.

• 1:02:58Speaker 00

  Honestly, Leslie, it's fine.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  It was a punctuation mark on a sentence that had already been written. My time in government work was over. I'm sure I loved shutting things down and bleeding the rotting beast from the inside.

• 1:03:11Speaker 05

  Your metaphors are so beautiful.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  But it was time for me to leave. And I didn't feel like explaining why to you or anyone. Everything that happened after, the fight we had, not giving you a heads up when my company took on the Morningstar Development and bulldozed the nurse's old house.

• 1:03:30Speaker 00

  I do regret that.

• 1:03:33Speaker 00

  I had a good run here. But after you and Tom and Donna and April and Terry left, when I looked around this office, nothing was the same.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  I'm unmoved.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  But it is dusty in this Michelle Obama studio.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Um, you know, uh, that's all, all I ever wanted to do. It's weird because I, I don't ever watch things again. So I haven't seen Parks and Rec again since it aired. That's, that episode was such a gift to me and Amy. It was like a one act play for the two of us.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  And it was, and it was so, uh, the, the, the thing, the vulnerability that Ron showed in that storyline was really moving to me.

• 1:04:37Speaker 00

  And the, you know, the Mike and his writers were, were so good at making you feel things for these ridiculous comedy characters.

• 1:04:49Speaker 00

  But I mean, that's, you know, watching that mainly just made me grateful. Like all I ever wanted to do was be, be part of the tradition. Like, like a Wendell Berry short story or an episode of MASH where you laugh. And then ultimately, you know, somebody does something nice and you're like, oh, I get it.

• 1:05:12Sam Fragoso?

  I don't think I had seen that episode since it came out in 2015. And there's something about it beyond, beyond the two of you being as great as you are. And also beyond the fact that I just miss watching the show.

• 1:05:29Sam Fragoso?

  There's something about that show that represented frankly, an Obama era like decency, or at least an attempt at decency. Like these people who worked in Parks and Rec were imperfect, flawed, dumb, silly, moronic, beautiful people that were part of an imperfect system, but tried at least, Leslie Knope certainly tried to make it a little bit better. And, and now watching it with you in this moment, about a decade removed,

• 1:06:09Sam Fragoso?

  the idea of good bureaucracy feels as like far fetched as millennial homeownership. And there's just a sadness to it that, um, it almost plays like analogy.

• 1:06:25Speaker 00

  I mean, it's funny, uh, when we were making this show, we, uh, every year we, we almost got canceled. Like it was not a, a hit show crazily. We weren't nominated for awards. We were critically beloved, but every year, uh, Modern Family, which was a great, very successful comedy, they would have like four or five guys nominated in my category of supporting actor for real. And we were like, man, like Pratt, Adam Scott, Aziz, like no, nobody was better than the kid on Modern Family.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  With, with all due respect, I don't, I don't know that show and I'm, I'm sure the kid is fantastic, but like, we just were like, and, and people would, I would get interviewed every year about being snubbed. That was every year is my thing. They'd be like, so how does it feel to be snubbed once again by the awards?

• 1:07:28Sam Fragoso?

  And how did it feel, Nick?

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  I would tell you what I told them, which was, I would so much rather, I mean, you could just feel it. I'm, I'm Ron Swanson. Like you can give anybody a trophy for anything they want. I've got the best part of my lifetime. Like no one's, I, I would, I would rather be snubbed as Ron Swanson than win an entire island for some other show. And because I could feel what came to be true, which is the lasting medicinal quality of that show. And how, that's the thing, what you said, that everyone feels that they're in that,

• 1:08:09Speaker 00

  people still are watching that show to try and glean and wring a sense of decency and optimism out of getting along with people we disagree with.

• 1:08:21Sam Fragoso?

  The question is, was it foolhardy to believe that that decency was real and alive and true?

• 1:08:30Speaker 00

  Um, sure. I think it always is foolhardy to, you know, to look to our better angels, to, to expect us to be good and not bloodthirsty, bombing secretaries of war.

• 1:08:48Speaker 00

  At the moment, if you look at the scoreboard, we're, the, the nice people are not winning. But that by God, I will always think, uh, that they will in the end.

• 1:09:01Sam Fragoso?

  Do you believe that?

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  I have to. I mean, otherwise I'll go on a killing spree. And so instead I make things to try and help engender, to try and, and be on the side of, as Jeff Tweedy says, like, just try and make things rather than destroy things. If you can finish your day, having offered more flowers than you've stepped on, that's a good, uh, goal.

• 1:09:30Sam Fragoso?

  This entire episode, I feel like we've been saying something, then complicating the truth that we just professed. And I feel like there's, there's only one way to end this episode, after the note of optimism you just offered, which is a poem by Wendell Berry called Questionnaire.

• 1:09:51Sam Fragoso?

  I believe you read it recently, but I want you to try to read it again here on the show.

• 1:09:57Speaker 00

  With pleasure. I mean, gladly, not, you'll see.

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  Questionnaire by Wendell Berry.

• 1:10:09Speaker 00

  One, how much poison are you willing to eat for the success of the free market and global trade? Please name your preferred poisons. Two, for the sake of goodness, how much evil are you willing to do? Fill in the following blanks with the names of your favorite evils and acts of hatred. Two, for the sake of goodness, how much evil are you willing to do? Fill in the following blanks with the names of your favorite evils and acts of hatred.

• 1:10:46Speaker 00

  Three, what sacrifices are you prepared to make for culture and civilization? Please list the monuments, shrines and works of art you would most willingly destroy. Four, in the name of patriotism and the flag, how much of our beloved land are you willing to desecrate? List in the following spaces, the mountains, rivers, towns, farms, you could most readily do without.

• 1:11:21Speaker 00

  Five, state briefly the ideals or hopes, the energy sources, the kinds of security for which you would kill a child. Name, please, the children whom you would be willing to kill.

• 1:11:43Sam Fragoso?

  What was the alternate title of that poem again?

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  The End of Mirth. It's, that's kind of always the oxymoronic nature of our nation, of, I mean, of human society. It always comes with, well, gay marriage is legal, but there's always a but, and, and the but is always brutal. You know, the reality is always brutal. To maintain the, the industrial military complex, to maintain our fossil fuel dependent civilization has brutal reality to it.

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  And so I, I greatly appreciate Wendell's clear eyed identification of that because it hurts, you know, it's painful. It's a painful truth and it allows me to say, we've got a long way to go.

• 1:12:43Speaker 00

  And, and for me and for, and for him, I think that we would argue, it all comes down to our relationship with nature, which is most closely, uh, related to our food. Like he says, eating is an agricultural act. Everyone engages with farmers every day when they eat, whether they like to admit it or not. And so we should care about them first and foremost. Every locality should care about its ability to produce food and take care of the people that are, that are doing that for us. When's the last time any of us had a meal and said, thank you to the people, where it came from?

• 1:13:26Sam Fragoso?

  Your journey with Wendell Berry began, I think in your early twenties, right?

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  Mid twenties is when I was handed two books of his short stories.

• 1:13:35Sam Fragoso?

  And I remember this, this part from the first time you came on the show. You said, quote, "When I was looking for my place in the world of storytelling and entertainment, someone dropped these Wendell Berry stories on me. And it was just a huge epiphany about how the world I was trying to fit into was actually selling a bill of goods to the rural world from which I came." We've been circling this, this, this bill of goods and the anger that's fomented, some of which has been directed at you, some of which has been demonstrated and exhibited and carried out in the ballot box. And in this moment in 2026, I guess I want to sit with how you understand that bill of goods.

• 1:14:19Speaker 00

  Well, it's a big question. It brings to mind Leonard Cohen's wonderful lyric, "The rich have got their channels in the bedrooms of the poor."

• 1:14:30Speaker 00

  Because I'm very aware that I am wealthy and on those channels. Those and also infuriated by those channels at the moment. At the moment, I have to subscribe to five fucking channels to watch the Cubs. If I want to see every Cubs game, I need to subscribe to at least three or four channels. The fuck? Like, and I just think about my grandpa on his tractor, listening to the Cubs on his radio. And when I go to the Dodgers game and it took, I got, I got there half an hour before the game, two blocks away on Cesar Chavez. I got there half an hour before the game. I was supposed to go on the air for Apple TV to promote Margo's Got Money Troubles.

• 1:15:15Speaker 00

  I got to my seat with Meghan in the middle of the fourth inning because it was so poorly run. And I just looked around thinking Meghan and I did a great job of like, keeping our cool. We were like, let's just laugh and have fun at how stupid this is. But I'm looking around at all these families, these working class families.

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  Going to the Dodgers game, what are they spending? 200 bucks to take their kids to the ballgame and buy them a hot dog, you know? And they, and they're sitting in traffic because it's so poorly orchestrated in run. And, and then if I want to watch the game, I can't even, I pay MLB, the app, 150 bucks. And there are like three nights, they don't give me the fucking game.

• 1:16:04Sam Fragoso?

  I love you. You've taken my big 30,000 foot question and reduced it down to MLB package size.

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  The fact that, um, I'm sorry, you tapped into the true source of my rage. While being part of the machine, I am a cog in the machine of entertainment and channels. I also am, am one of the consumers shaking my fist at like, where, why do I have to work so hard to find good eggs? And, and the, the answer is I go to the farmer's market. I continue to do research, but it's, it's very hard and that makes me mad. Americans should at least have access to fresh, fresh locally sourced eggs.

• 1:16:57Sam Fragoso?

  I'm a man as crude as any. Growth of speech, intolerant, stubborn, angry, full of fits and furies. That I may have spoken well at times is not natural. A wonder is what it is.

• 1:17:13Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:17:14Sam Fragoso?

  Nick Offerman, thank you for all the time. As always, did we cover everything?

• 1:17:18Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm still naive enough to, to write my book or do my movie or do Talk Easy. And I'm like, and it still didn't fix everything? Didn't you guys hear what we were talking about? You know, and so Wendell will, he's in his, in his wife, Tanya, who's so great. They laugh and say, I've, I've been writing the same book for, for 60 years. I just keep writing the same thing. And he, he, he's kind of wrapping it up. And, but he, he says, you know, it didn't work. And I'm like, well, we'll, we'll keep telling them.

• 1:17:58Sam Fragoso?

  I really appreciate how much faith you have in this show. That, that's, that's very nice of you.

• 1:18:03Speaker 00

  I mean, yeah, if, listen, if this doesn't, if this doesn't do it, let's see how the elections go this fall.

• 1:18:09Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  But if I need to, I'll come back.

• 1:18:12Sam Fragoso?

  You have my number.

• 1:18:12Speaker 00

  We'll do it again.

• 1:18:13Sam Fragoso?

  Nick Offerman. Thank you, sir.

• 1:18:15Speaker 00

  Thank you, Sam.

• 1:19:10Speaker 06

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

• 1:19:18Speaker 02

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 1:19:21Speaker 06

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 1:19:26Speaker 06

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:19:32Speaker 06

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast, What It's Like to Be.

• 1:19:40Speaker 00

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