Pod Insights Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware Malala Yousafzai About this episode We’re honoured to welcome award winning activist Malala Yousafzai onto the podcast this week! We sat down and talked with Malala about her incredible stories from her brand new book ‘Finding My Way’. We covered her thoughts on cooking, going clubbing in Oxford, being ghosted, her love of Taylor Swift, food memories from Pakistan, her first experience of people with a hangover and what it was like to become a Nobel Peace Prize winner at the age of 17. This is such a special episode with an incredible lady, we could have chatted for hours! Malala’s new book ‘Finding My Way’ is available everywhere now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript 10,910 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:08 Jessie Ware? Hello and welcome to Tabor Manas. I'm Jessie Wout and I'm here with Mum. We're in New Cross. And I'm so thrilled to have this person coming over to my house. It feels very, very, well, it's an honor. We've got Malala coming over, the Pakistani educational activist, who was protesting from the age of 11 about the Taliban taking away the rights of girls and education in Pakistan. And when she was 15, the Taliban came onto her school bus, asked who Malala was, and shot her in the head. The next thing she remembers is waking up in Birmingham, where she had been flown over and her whole family had come for her to be saved.
1:53 Jessie Ware? And that's where she carried on living. She, I wouldn't say thrown into activism, because she...
1:59 Speaker 04 No, she's always been a strong advocate for female education.
2:02 Jessie Ware? But I think from that horrendous incident, she then became world famous and also a symbol for...
2:12 Speaker 04 Female education.
2:13 Jessie Ware? And female rights.
2:15 Speaker 04 She won the Nobel Peace Prize at age of 17, the youngest winner, I think. She's carried on being a huge advocate and activist for female education, particularly in the face of the Taliban, which is stopping girls going to school.
2:32 Jessie Ware? And still is going on in Afghanistan.
2:34 Speaker 04 Yeah, girls are not allowed to go to school, they're not allowed to develop their education at all. And she has set up the Malala Fund to open schools for girls and to expand their horizons in education.
2:49 Jessie Ware? Malala's coming on today to talk about her new memoir, it's called Finding My Way. I absolutely loved reading it. It's about, well, she talks about coming over here as a young girl and kind of restarting her life and missing all her friends back in Pakistan. But also, it's a very much a coming of age memoir, her time at Oxford, the highs, the lows. It's about mental health, falling in love, friendship, relationships and trauma. I think, you know, we look at Malala and we see her giving these incredibly important speeches and campaigning. She is being offered prizes, she is doing the work.
3:33 Jessie Ware? And I think what was so beautiful was to learn more about Malala, the person, the young girl, the girl that is making mistakes at Oxford, the girl that is not knowing how to date.
3:44 Speaker 04 Who knew what a great dancer she was, her love of hip hop and her adoration of Taylor Swift.
3:51 Jessie Ware? Well, I can't wait to talk to her about this, and of course, food. So I am cooking something that I've never cooked before, but I trust this brilliant chef. It's Easter Belfridge and it's her new cookbook, so I wanted to give it a little shout out. It's fusillo and it's inspired by Brazilian recipes. And it's a spatchcock chicken that has a spice that I've never heard of called urucum. And I'm really sorry, have you heard of it?
4:17 Speaker 04 No.
4:18 Jessie Ware? Anyway, it's a bit of that, it's a load of peppercorns. You marinate it in yogurt and a bit of curry powder and overnight. And then you put it in this peppercorn coconut sauce with some. Tomato paste, this garlic and ginger and I mean so many twists of pepper. So I hope she likes pepper. And you do it in the oven for about forty minutes. I've got a big bird, so it's going to take a bit longer. And I've done it with your onion rice with chicken stock. And then a slaw from another recipe that Easter has in her book. I got the mandolin out again, Mum.
4:54 Speaker 04 Did you wear your gloves?
4:55 Jessie Ware? I didn't.
4:56 Speaker 04 But you managed not to take any fingers off?
4:58 Jessie Ware? I'm okay.
4:59 Speaker 04 Okay.
4:59 Jessie Ware? And actually, it's a beautiful piece of equipment when used right. And then you've made pudding.
5:04 Speaker 04 Yeah.
5:05 Jessie Ware? What have you made?
5:05 Speaker 04 I've made a cake. She likes mangoes. She talks about mangoes a lot in her book. So I thought, I'll give the girl mangoes. So I've done a mango Mithai cake. Mithai is a term used for Indian sweets. So it's got the cake mixture has chopped cashews and chopped pistachio and cardamom in it. That's in the cake. Then there's saffron cream and cardamom in the cream and mango.
5:36 Jessie Ware? Great. Malala's just come through, so Malala coming up on Tode Night.
5:50 Jessie Ware? Malala, thank you for coming over after quite a wild night out last night, maybe. You won an Elle Style Awards.
5:57 Speaker 05 Yes.
5:57 Jessie Ware? What was the award that you won?
5:59 Speaker 05 Inspirational Icon.
6:01 Jessie Ware? How many Inspirational Icon Awards have you won thus far?
6:04 Speaker 05 Quite a few, but I think I was in the company of amazing people, including Riz Ahmed.
6:09 Jessie Ware? We love Riz. Riz has been on the podcast.
6:11 Speaker 05 And Zadie Smith.
6:12 Jessie Ware? Oh, amazing.
6:13 Speaker 05 So I was like, I have to just meet them and spend time with them.
6:17 Jessie Ware? Firstly, just want to say I loved your memoir so much. I feel like it should be made into a film.
6:25 Speaker 05 Oh, are you gonna consider it?
6:27 Jessie Ware? Well, I don't know. You make films. You've already made one with Jennifer Lawrence, so.
6:31 Speaker 05 That's true, but I am only a small part of it, as you would know. The production world is very different. So yeah, if anybody's interested, why not?
6:37 Jessie Ware? It really felt like we got to know you and it felt like a coming of age memoir. And I loved learning about.
6:48 Jessie Ware? You may be not always waking up for every Oxford um lecture, sleeping in your friend's hen and is it Anisha?
6:56 Speaker 05 Anisa.
6:56 Jessie Ware? Anisa, hen, them all having to wake you up. Was it Yasmin, the Yasmin's in there?
7:01 Speaker 05 Yasmin, Cora, yes. It was my exam.
7:05 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
7:05 Speaker 05 It was my first exam at Oxford and they woke me up like fifteen, five minutes before I had to get there. It was insane.
7:14 Jessie Ware? I think the outside, well, the public presume, you know, you've been given this kind of godly saint persona, which I, you are amazing. You're inspiring, you're incredible. But I did quite like hearing kind of the mistakes that Malala makes too.
7:32 Speaker 05 Yeah, and this was the whole reason why I wanted to write this book, Finding My Way, because I was fifteen and I was labelled as an icon. I was receiving many titles from the attack to the Nobel Prize. But in all of that, I was still fifteen year old and I did not know myself. So this book is me reintroducing myself. And what this journey has been like for me in the past ten or so years. I talk about my college life.
8:01 Jessie Ware? Hmm.
8:02 Speaker 05 How I initially struggled, but I made my way to make friends, find love and make mistakes.
8:09 Jessie Ware? Hmm.
8:10 Speaker 05 I never thought mental health would be a topic I would be talking about, but that affected me many, many years later after the attack. And I talk about silly moments, mistakes, how I nearly failed my first year exams to how I got ghosted by my first crush.
8:25 Jessie Ware? Tarek.
8:26 Speaker 05 That's all part of the book.
8:27 Speaker 04 Where is Tarek now, do you think?
8:30 Speaker 05 We don't know. Can we find him?
8:33 Speaker 04 I'd love to find Tarek.
8:35 Jessie Ware? Where are you? And why the hell did you ghost Malala?
8:39 Speaker 04 Because he was probably drug dealing.
8:41 Jessie Ware? Well, no, this was the, do, do we think?
8:44 Speaker 04 I think he was.
8:44 Speaker 05 I don't think there is enough evidence, you know, we should not judge people too quickly.
8:49 Speaker 04 Said he was on his phone a lot and he had more than one phone.
8:52 Speaker 05 He had a lot of phones. He was always getting in trouble.
8:55 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
8:56 Speaker 05 And this is what my friends were trying to explain to me that can't you see it? It's pretty obvious. And I said, no, but have you heard it from Tarek's perspective? He's really struggling or what he's giving him.
9:07 Speaker 04 You're so kind.
9:08 Speaker 05 Academic support and we need to talk to the principal. I did not realise I was actually advocating for him. I had not spent that much time on any advocacy then advocating for Tariq.
9:19 Speaker 04 Was he good looking?
9:21 Speaker 05 Yes.
9:22 Speaker 04 Well, I thought you found him good looking, but objectively, did everyone else say Malala, what are you doing? He's not that great.
9:29 Speaker 05 No, as you can see in the book, nobody brought that up. So he was good looking. Nobody was disagreeing on that.
9:35 Jessie Ware? I I feel like me and you have similar tastes. Have you been watching The Summer I Turned Pretty?
9:40 Speaker 05 Yes.
9:41 Jessie Ware? I knew you would be. Are we team Conrad?
9:43 Speaker 05 Of course.
9:44 Jessie Ware? Yes.
9:44 Speaker 05 Of course, from the start, we knew he was the one.
9:47 Jessie Ware? We knew.
9:48 Speaker 05 Yeah.
9:49 Jessie Ware? But I'm kind of thinking, in my head, I was imagining Tariq kind of brooding a bit like Conrad.
9:54 Speaker 04 But you took him out of the bell tower as well.
9:57 Jessie Ware? Okay.
9:57 Speaker 05 Season one Conrad.
9:58 Jessie Ware? Okay, fine. Okay, let's go to Gilmore Girls. Is he a bit like, what's it, Milo Ventor? What's, do you watch Gilmore Girls?
10:05 Speaker 05 I've seen some.
10:06 Jessie Ware? I feel like that's your autumn thing that you need to enter into now.
10:10 Speaker 05 It's it has many, many seasons, so I'm like.
10:12 Jessie Ware? You're fine, but the bad boy in it, I think, can everyone clarify? I think his name's Jesse and then he plays the dad in This Is Us. Have you watched This Is Us?
10:20 Speaker 05 I have not.
10:20 Jessie Ware? Okay, you've got so much that I need to pass on. We need to, yeah, but but yeah, I loved the image.
10:26 Speaker 05 He is, he is like Edward from Twilight. He is a bit like Conrad from season one in The Summer I Turned Pretty. He's that mysterious guy.
10:35 Jessie Ware? Yes.
10:36 Speaker 05 You know, he's there, but he's not there. You feel like you want to be with him and and and he he is the one for you, but somehow he's not present and you do not know him. He does not share much of himself. It's just crazy. It's hard to describe it, but that's who he was. I felt like he was maybe a ghost, you know, it's like a ghost, something in my imagination.
10:57 Speaker 04 Drifted in and then drifted away.
11:00 Speaker 05 But I loved that because. You know, as you would read in the book, I just never thought I would be loved and I could love a boy. There were cultural reasons behind that. I just thought in our culture, you're just supposed to get married and there's no concept of dating or having a boyfriend. And then along with that, because of the attack, um my facial nerve was damaged. So I was a bit self-conscious and I thought, oh, you know, like it's it's all about work and like nobody should love me, whatever, you know, we're still young and and I was still a teenager. So all of those thoughts were in my mind. So when I saw Tarek, I was just thinking like, it's okay, it's okay to love somebody in your imagination.
11:38 Speaker 05 I can control myself outside and be focused on the work, but nothing can stop me from this this short phase of being in love and I love that.
11:46 Jessie Ware? But I also love how you became the agony aunt to all of your girlfriends.
11:51 Speaker 05 Yeah.
11:51 Jessie Ware? That were having boy troubles or, you know, relationship troubles and you just say it how it is and they were like, you were kind of the oracle and they would come to you for advice. And I just, I it it was a really beautiful picture that you painted of sorority and friendship and learning about yourself. I loved hearing about you just being so um intrigued by people on a hangover. Being like I'd never seen someone on a hangover.
12:19 Speaker 05 Never, ever, ever. I just thought that was the craziest scene I would ever experience in my life. They were like lying on the floor and I had to drag them in the corridor and take them to their room. I thought this was the most insane thing I would ever be doing in college. I was not prepared for that. But also nobody would remember anything the day after.
12:38 Jessie Ware? Oh, but you remember.
12:39 Speaker 05 I would have a whole experience, a story, and they would just say, I don't remember what happened last night. But that was part of their college life and I I just got to see it.
12:49 Speaker 04 Do you think when you arrived at at Oxford, everyone had an expectation that you were wise, mature, all of those things. So you had so much to live up to and then they had to get to know the person that liked Taylor Swift and
13:04 Jessie Ware? Cardi B.
13:04 Speaker 04 And Cardi B and hip hop.
13:07 Speaker 05 Yeah, and who didn't know how to stir the tea the right way or.
13:11 Speaker 04 Which way is the right way?
13:12 Jessie Ware? I still don't really know. Who told you this?
13:15 Speaker 05 So I was just, and I took the the the teaspoon, I was just like stirring it this way. And then she was like, no, you don't stir it this way. It's like back and forth and you don't touch the sides.
13:23 Jessie Ware? Was this a posh mate of yours?
13:25 Speaker 05 Very posh.
13:27 Speaker 05 It was Anisa.
13:28 Jessie Ware? Okay.
13:28 Speaker 05 She always had something to say about how I was like talking and etiquettes and you know how you stirred your tea. So she was an interesting character, you know, sort of a bit mean, but then in the end she also was there for me when I needed help. And she she made me realise how I needed to stop thinking about Tarek and and I just could not like help a guy who did not want to help himself.
13:51 Speaker 04 Is she the one that dressed you up for club night?
13:53 Speaker 05 Yes.
13:55 Jessie Ware? Was this the eighties aerobics night?
13:57 Speaker 05 Yes.
13:58 Jessie Ware? Where you got completely wrong when they turned they turned up for you and you were like.
14:02 Speaker 05 Yes.
14:02 Jessie Ware? What were you in when you were going to this kind of, it wasn't freshers week anymore. This was like second year or third year, was it?
14:07 Speaker 05 Like later in first year, I think, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I had just no clue. I was like, what does this even mean? This is my first night with college students at a club. And they were like, no, no, no, like a club night is is very different than you think. So. Yeah, you know, it's just like bright um yellow, like mustard colour top, which was, you know, cropped. And they said, okay, we can wear something underneath that so you feel comfortable. And they put some glitter on my face and a lot of makeup and uh and then I put on some, I put on sunglasses so that that could just hide my identity a bit. And I realised so many people didn't even recognise me at the club, which was nice.
14:48 Speaker 05 Uh so I was like, hey, like, it is me. I took off my, you know, my cap and like my uh sunglasses.
14:53 Jessie Ware? But and also you stayed to the bitter end. They were exhausted. Your friends were like, we can't go as hard as Malala in the club.
15:00 Speaker 05 Yeah, initially I I was so scared to go. I just had no idea if I could even stay there for five minutes. And then as soon as I was there, I I just enjoyed the company of my friends and I just felt like I was a college student. At school, I had a very different experience. I had only one friend this whole time. Because the school had introduced me to the girls before they had met me.
15:23 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:24 Speaker 05 So in their mind, it was this this icon or some sort of activist they had heard of in the news. Everybody was um hesitant to approach me. I was also really scared. I did not know what to say. I felt like I could not follow, you know, the trendy conversations and catch on the the phrases that they were using. So I would just, you know, read a book. I was just reading at lunchtimes. But in college, it was a restart for me because I knew everybody is new in first year and they're all trying to make friends. So I said, I it's okay if I'm a bit creepy and if I'm overdoing it, but I will go and say hello to everybody and I will make as many friends as I can.
16:07 Speaker 04 I I mean, I'm very aware that your life in rural Pakistan with your girl, you had such good friends there. And you must have missed them so much when you arrived in Birmingham. And it was so hard to keep in touch, really.
16:22 Speaker 05 My friends uh in Pakistan were a way for me to reconnect with my old life, with my previous life before the attack. Because I did not remember what happened during the attack. And somehow I was in a new country and I just could not connect the two worlds. And friends was a way that I could remind myself of my childhood and my time at school, how we used to like giggle during recess time and we used to play badminton or uh you know, how much we loved our our school time that you know, we love to dance in our classroom, sometimes listen to music. And and those memories would would stay with us forever. So whenever I felt
17:04 Speaker 05 that that I was missing home, I would call my my best friend.
17:08 Speaker 04 Can we talk about your childhood and talk about some of the food memories you have growing up in Pakistan? And can you paint the picture for picture for us? Who's around the dinner table? And what was something that you were eating a lot of?
17:21 Speaker 05 So we did not have a dinner table.
17:23 Speaker 04 Okay.
17:24 Speaker 05 We first had a dinner table in Birmingham.
17:28 Speaker 05 When we moved to the UK, before that in Pakistan, we had always eaten on the floor. So there's a mat that you put on the floor and then you all sit around it and it's called Dastar Khan. That's the mat is called that. And you know, everybody's around and the food is in the middle and you are just sharing it. It's all about sharing. I remember breakfast with my brothers and my parents in the morning and I could never finish my egg. I just hated egg and my parents would force me to eat it, but I could never finish it. And but I loved my mom's rice and chicken. It was my favorite dish in the world and to this day I can have it anytime. It's.
18:07 Jessie Ware? What's special about it?
18:09 Speaker 05 It's just like plain white rice. There is not much spices in it, but somehow it just smells so good. And it just, it has this taste to it that I can't describe as simple as it is. It is delicious and just maybe because my my mom's hands have cooked it. And and the curry, it's it's chicken curry, um, you know, with a tomato sauce. Um, and and yeah, and just pour it on the on the rice and you have like a delicious meal. This was like my perfect meal anytime I could have.
18:46 Jessie Ware? Were you a fussy eater?
18:48 Speaker 05 I was a very fussy eater growing up. I hated a lot of things. Yeah, but then I'm if I compare myself to that past version of me, I'm I'm very different now. Like I could not have aubergine and like vegetables and like. I if I can list down a million things that I could not imagine eating and today I can eat everything.
19:12 Jessie Ware? You you also you talk about that in the book and part of your mental health journey. And and dealing with some of the PTSD from the attack. And self self care, you talk about this notion of self care. You kind of would have been like, no, no, no, no, no before. And then taking it quite seriously and that to do with diet as well. And like nourishing yourself in a different way.
19:40 Speaker 05 Yeah, so when I had a panic attack at Oxford and that was because of this exposure to bong with friends, of course, you know, it's college life. And everybody is trying something and like smoking weed is so normal there. But I had never heard of bong. I did not know what it was. I took one puff and I coughed. But on the second attempt, I thought it couldn't do much harm. But I felt it just all went into my body. And that moment was the craziest moment I could ever live in because even though I had forgotten about the attack, I felt like I was reliving it. That I could see the gunman, that I could feel like I am, I'm, I'm sort of killed again and
20:23 Speaker 05 and I could not process if I'm in in reality or not, if this is happening all over again. Which was a very difficult moment, but it not only affected my sleep and and, you know, my my physical health and how I did not feel present, it also affected my diet. For days, I just could not eat normal. I was constantly drinking tea. And then the most I could do was just eat ranch fries. That's it. Um, it was, it was difficult to like get that appetite and then um I was later told that I'm anemic as well. And of course, if you're not eating properly, like you would become anemic as well. So it it is connected. I think diet is everything. And then um so I I realized that
21:06 Speaker 05 in my mental health journey, I not only need to prioritize therapy and all the other support that I need, but also my diet. So I am more into fitness now. I exercise.
21:17 Jessie Ware? Yeah, I've heard running for over an hour. I'm really, I'm really jealous and yet also very impressed. Congratulations.
21:25 Speaker 05 I'm also impressed because I never thought this would be me.
21:28 Jessie Ware? Where do you run?
21:30 Speaker 05 Just run on a treadmill.
21:31 Jessie Ware? Do you find it boring on a treadmill though? I guess it's harder maybe.
21:35 Speaker 04 It'd be harder for it to run outside.
21:38 Speaker 05 I can run outside, but I think it can be a bit steep, like it's just unpredictable. What the road would look like outside. So I think I'd do it as a cheat code where, you know, I, at least on a treadmill, I know it's flat and it's not that hard.
21:50 Jessie Ware? What are you watching or listening to when you're running?
21:54 Speaker 05 So um, in the beginning.
21:56 Jessie Ware? Hmm.
21:57 Speaker 05 I was not listening to any music while running.
22:00 Jessie Ware? That's like road dogging.
22:01 Speaker 05 I know people, I, I told it to a friend, cause they asked me and they thought I was weird. I said, oh, like, so do people have to listen to music when they're in the gym or running? They said, yeah. So then recently I did try and I realized, yeah, it's like very helpful if you're listening to music. There's Kavali music. Kavali is traditional music from South Asia, like India, Pakistan, and it's basically connected to Sufism as well. The songs are twenty to twenty-five minutes long.
22:29 Speaker 04 So five minutes long. What are they about?
22:32 Speaker 05 It's about connecting to God, connecting to your inner self. It's about spirituality and that, you know, you don't have to look for, for God anywhere else. It's, it's within us, it's within you, and it's about being kind and being um, just being more human.
22:49 Speaker 04 Are you religious?
22:51 Speaker 05 Yes, I mean, like I, I grew up in Pakistan. Islam is the religion there.
22:55 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
22:55 Speaker 05 Um, and but because I was not aware of any other religion, so I just could not understand how was my faith different than other faiths? Uh, but when I came to the UK and I had a bit more exposure and learned about other faiths, I realized that at the center of all of these faiths is a similar message about being good. Being good to each other, being good to our climate and environment, uh, taking care of each other and just having a sense of morality, like that is the main purpose more than the. You know, the practices and the rituals and the prayers, like that is the essence of it. I think if you don't have that, then it's it's empty.
23:36 Speaker 05 It doesn't carry as much for you if you are just simply about the rituals and the practices. That's what I have learned. So for me, religion is still a big part of my life. The other reason I am focusing on staying close to my religion is because the people who tried to attack me, the Taliban, they have misused our religion. They have misused Islam, even right now when they have taken control in Afghanistan and they have banned girls and women from learning public life, sports and any political participation. They're using the religious narrative, they're using the cultural narrative.
24:17 Speaker 05 So I want to stay connected with my faith because I want people to know that that I am a reflection of the faith, that the women who are from those communities are a reflection of the faith, not these extremists. They cannot claim to be the ambassadors of the religion. They're completely misusing it. You do not find any verse that says a girl cannot be allowed in school or you can stop a woman from work. Like, it's just complete nonsense that they have promoted because of their misogynistic views. So I think, you know, more of us from our faith need to stand up to that. And I think it's up to people how they interpret it and how they define it. So, yeah.
24:55 Speaker 04 Are you connected with anyone in Afghanistan? Is there a kind of, well, you're not going to say, but I mean, I just wondered if there were any links there that you can support women who are fighting over there to?
25:08 Jessie Ware? You say in the book that you had to, when the Taliban were taking over, you had to evacuate, try and help, because you do have the Malala Fund there and organizations. Yeah, yeah.
25:20 Speaker 05 So the Taliban now and then have taken control of different parts of Pakistan. So, you know, we were based in Pakistan. They took control of our town from two thousand and seven till two thousand and nine. But they had been in power in Afghanistan in the late nineties. And then again, now they're back in power for the past four years. In Afghanistan, we were supporting projects. We were giving grants to local activists who were providing teachers' training, who were reaching to girls in the most marginalized communities. And of course, there were so many challenges girls were already facing, from cultural norms to just lack of teachers, lack of good female teachers. So we had quite a few activists who were doing this incredible work.
26:01 Speaker 05 But when the Taliban took over, they had to hide every piece of proof that they had worked for girls' education. They had to hide everything. The Taliban were getting into their offices. They were searching for evidence on their laptops. They were beating them up, they were threatening them. So we had to evacuate all our activists as soon as we could. And I'm so glad that everybody's safe now. We, I think to this day, we have saved more than like three hundred education activists and their families. But they're still doing the work. They have not stopped.
26:33 Speaker 04 Are they in Pakistan now?
26:35 Speaker 05 They're in different countries. Some of them have found their permanent residence. They're in different countries. And they continue to do the work. They are leading a campaign to ask world leaders to hold the Taliban accountable. And in the international system, like, these things get these big jargons and it doesn't make sense to people. Like, even to myself, I was like, wait a second. We have all of these conventions and we talk about human rights. When a group like the Taliban take over and they announce more than a hundred decrees and edicts and they prevent women from work, education, and systematically oppress them, like, what does that mean? So Afghan activists and other human rights activists
27:18 Speaker 05 are calling world leaders to recognize this as a gender apartheid. They're saying that it is a form of an apartheid which is against women. Because you're born a woman, you're a girl, you have a different life. If you're born a girl in Afghanistan, you cannot have an education. You cannot dream of ever doing work. You cannot have any political participation. And you are punished for it. That's the most important thing. It's those who are in power, who are supposed to protect you, are actually taking away your rights. So we need a better international system that can actually provide protection for women. And when groups like the Taliban take control, that we can hold them accountable. And I see this important, not just for women and girls in Afghanistan, but for women everywhere.
28:01 Speaker 05 There is no guarantee that women are safe in any country against such oppressive regimes that are controlling women's bodies, women's rights, and that are taking away women's rights as human beings.
28:15 Speaker 04 Well, yeah, even in more sophisticated countries, that's happening.
28:21 Speaker 05 I think just the way we're seeing the world right now, I'm like, I'm doubting if any. You know, like, on the one hand, I I'm really proud of the progress and I sit down with people and they're doing incredible work and they they are in like every part of the world, from Tanzania to Brazil to the UK. But then you also are witnessing this backward movement where people are taking away women's rights and it's everywhere. Like, you know, you hear about misogyny, even in the UK, you hear about how, you know, the government officials, where it's just men only in the room and they're talking about women's bodies and and what women's rights should be. Like, this is completely shocking that decisions about women's futures and bodies are made in their absence.
29:04 Speaker 05 So we need to rethink about it in the context of every country. And that's why, like, when I think about an issue in Afghanistan, when I think about the situation of women in in Gaza or in any part of the world, I think it should matter to all of us. Not just for the sake of like solidarity, we need more of that, but also because of what does it mean for our commitment to gender equality.
29:26 Jessie Ware? I mean, I saw that you you've committed quite a lot of, a huge donation to Gaza as well, like, for like relief, um, the Malala Fund did, didn't they?
29:34 Speaker 05 Yes.
29:35 Jessie Ware? Yeah, which is amazing. Um, it feels really trivial now to ask you about some food stuff. So I'm really sorry because you speak so brilliantly and I could listen to you all day.
29:46 Speaker 04 But you you do travel the world. You must try food all over the world.
29:50 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, I have tried food in Nigeria. I have tried jollof rice. I've tried food in Ethiopia and Lebanon, Jordan. I love Middle Eastern food. I have tried food in Brazil and Mexico. And food in Mexico is not the Mexican food you find in a restaurant in America. It's so different. I was like, so where's, you know, the burritos that I know. They're like, no, no, you're gonna get something more delicious than that. And I have never found the same food that I had in Mexico or in Brazil. It's it's delicious. It's so different. It's it's the ingredients, it's the smell, it's the it's the taste, and it's also the people. It's the people on the table. And I love that the most because they have a story about everything. They have a story about why
30:35 Speaker 05 these tomatoes are so important, why this kind of flower is so important. There's a whole history how they had like struggled for it. There's a a a history of pride for justice. Um. And it's somehow also associated with women's freedom and women's independence, how women were fighting for um for for their equality. And I love that, even though I can't cook, but I love all those conversations and I love the food.
31:00 Speaker 04 Can you really not cook?
31:02 Speaker 05 No, I can't.
31:03 Speaker 04 If you can read, you can cook, I think.
31:05 Speaker 05 So here's a little secret about me and my cooking journey.
31:08 Speaker 04 Come on then. Okay.
31:10 Speaker 05 So when I was a kid, I knew that if I learned to cook, I will be expected to cook forever. And that was also a nice thing on your C V for you to get married.
31:21 Speaker 04 Uh huh.
31:22 Speaker 05 So there were many reasons then why I did not want to learn to cook because I just did not want to be considered for marriage. Then also at home, I had two younger brothers. I had no sister, but two younger brothers. And I knew they will never learn to cook because that's the environment we grew up in. In my whole life in Pakistan, I had never seen a man cook. It was always, always.
31:44 Speaker 04 Male chefs in Pakistan.
31:46 Speaker 05 Not in all, like the the villages and the the places I come from, like I did not come from a big city. We were from, you know, the mountains. We uh just it's so common, like it's expected.
31:56 Speaker 04 Hmm.
31:57 Speaker 05 And like my father is celebrated for being a feminist dad, that he never pressurized his daughter. He was always with her. That is fine, but I think, you know, and we both recognize it, the missing parts. Like I never saw him cooking. And he never thought about it for the boys, that you know, was he thinking about teaching the boys how to cook? So they can be the better next men.
32:19 Jessie Ware? Well, are they cooking now? You know, they live in Birmingham. Do they both still live in Birmingham?
32:24 Speaker 05 Uh, yes, yes.
32:26 Jessie Ware? And have they learnt how to cook?
32:27 Speaker 05 So the little one, yes, because he uh, he came to the UK when he was eight years old. And somehow for him, you know, this was just a new culture that he was growing up in. So it was. Um, he had plenty of more time. So he cooks now and I'm so shocked that he can cook now.
32:43 Speaker 04 But you get people running all the good restaurants, the Pakistani restaurants here, like in Tooting. And they're all, they're all male.
32:53 Speaker 05 Yeah, but that's another problem though. I think that's also a problem in itself, that when it comes to making money. And when it becomes a job, then men are like, oh, you you want a chef, I'm there. But you want to cook? Just to cook, then you have to do it for free. It's unpaid labour and you do it at home. So then it's women's job.
33:11 Speaker 04 Does your husband cook?
33:13 Speaker 05 He doesn't cook. He can't cook. Um, he was, he was never taught how to cook. And that's what happened. That's, he makes reservations, yes.
33:23 Speaker 04 So who cooks at home?
33:24 Speaker 05 He gets the delivery and everything.
33:27 Speaker 04 What do you do at home? You just put things in the microwave?
33:30 Speaker 05 Yes. So basically, when we got married, that's when I realised that, oh, you know, I don't have my mom here cooking for me. And I can't rely on restaurant food or, you know, these deliveries. So. My husband and I were like really worried what we were gonna do. So then, but he's like quite practical. So he has committed to to learn to cook one day. Because I said to him, I said, I will never learn how to cook before you. It's like the moment a woman learns to do, like if she decides to cook before. Then everybody says, oh, you cooks, you know, you make delicious food and it's better when you make it and I can't make it like you. I was like, no, I'm gonna get trapped in this. So I want you.
34:10 Jessie Ware? Even with darling, uh, how do you pronounce his name?
34:13 Speaker 05 Asser.
34:13 Jessie Ware? Asser. Even with darling Asser, would he, I don't believe he would ever trap.
34:18 Speaker 05 I know.
34:19 Jessie Ware? His, his. Free thinking Malala who he celebrates.
34:23 Speaker 05 It's true, but I think it's just how I grew up.
34:25 Jessie Ware? Uh huh, yeah.
34:26 Speaker 05 And and it's it's the fear that I carry with me. It was the same fear I had with me when I was thinking about whether to get married or not. And I was like, Arthur is the perfect guy. He thinks better than me about how women should be treated in in marriage. And I thought like, he is not that stereotypical guy. To be honest, he's like way ahead. And and somehow in my mind, it's just all of these thoughts are floating. And I could not convince myself that it would be the marriage that, you know, I dream of. It it is better than that, like I'm so happy. But I think it's okay for us to have these worries because like that's the reality we face. We cannot dissociate ourselves with it. That's how we grew up.
35:16 Speaker 00 Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.
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36:24 Jessie Ware? Okay, sorry, I'm not gonna put this on a bowl. I just think we may as well just keep it in there. Do you mind it being in the bay?
36:32 Speaker 05 Not.
36:32 Jessie Ware? Okay, fine. It's actually a Brazilian dish.
36:35 Speaker 05 Oh, nice.
36:36 Jessie Ware? My friend has a new cookbook out and she's brilliant. And Easter belfry, and I thought, well, I'll try it. So it's like a kind of coconut peppercorn.
36:46 Speaker 05 Yeah.
36:47 Jessie Ware? Chicken.
36:48 Speaker 05 Nice.
36:48 Jessie Ware? Thing with some rice. And so hopefully.
36:52 Speaker 04 Do you like spicy?
36:54 Speaker 05 I like spicy, but not too spicy.
36:57 Speaker 04 Me too.
36:58 Speaker 05 I can't have too spicy food.
37:00 Speaker 04 So if you were having.
37:01 Speaker 05 My stomach has changed, I think the whole, you know.
37:04 Speaker 04 If you were having Nandos, what would you have? The mild or medium?
37:09 Speaker 05 Medium.
37:10 Speaker 04 Medium, you're a medium Nandos person.
37:12 Speaker 05 But I am very open to mild, because some people can't have mild. They're like, it has to be like medium and above. But I'm like, medium and below.
37:20 Speaker 04 Me too.
37:20 Jessie Ware? Mum, I'm actually gonna ask you to kind of serve it, if that's okay.
37:23 Speaker 04 If you give me the right implements.
37:25 Jessie Ware? Right here.
37:25 Speaker 04 I'll be able to do it. A sharp knife, darling, and a fork.
37:31 Speaker 04 Malala, tell me how much you would like to eat chicken, wise.
37:35 Speaker 05 I can eat a lot of chicken.
37:38 Jessie Ware? Whilst mum cuts up some of the chicken, do you mind doing that? Thanks, mum, appreciate you.
37:43 Speaker 04 Do you want me to do the sauce? Do you want me to put sauce on for you?
37:47 Speaker 05 Yeah, and that should be enough.
37:48 Jessie Ware? And the rice on this.
37:50 Speaker 04 Oh, why have I got, I need to get some.
37:52 Jessie Ware? Let me just do the sauce.
37:55 Speaker 04 I'll get you some.
37:56 Speaker 05 Don't worry. You haven't seen our kitchen.
38:00 Jessie Ware? Well, I was, we usually ask everyone, everyone's favourite item in their kitchen. What would be your most used item in your kitchen, Malala?
38:09 Speaker 05 It's the microwave.
38:13 Speaker 05 Microwave fridge.
38:14 Jessie Ware? Okay, so what would we find in your fridge always? If we were coming over, what would always be in the fridge?
38:21 Speaker 05 So definitely milk, some berries.
38:24 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
38:25 Speaker 05 And like yogurt.
38:27 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
38:27 Speaker 05 Bread and then boxes of food.
38:31 Jessie Ware? What, like leftovers?
38:33 Speaker 05 No, so we have found this service that delivers food that you just put in the microwave.
38:39 Jessie Ware? Crepe, like, yeah.
38:41 Speaker 05 Yeah, it is easy because, you know, technically I can cook and it takes me three minutes to just put in.
38:45 Jessie Ware? And it's healthy and considered.
38:48 Speaker 05 Yes.
38:49 Jessie Ware? Um, this is a coleslaw.
38:51 Speaker 05 Okay.
38:51 Jessie Ware? Um, and then there's some onion and coriander and lime, if you want some of that. Um. I wanted to talk about your mum. You did, you did an Instagram post about how, you know, lots of people know a lot about your dad.
39:05 Speaker 05 Yes.
39:06 Jessie Ware? And less about your mum and that your mum and your relationship has been, um, how should I say?
39:13 Speaker 05 You know, it's, uh.
39:14 Jessie Ware? Complicated.
39:15 Speaker 05 A bit complicated, yes.
39:17 Jessie Ware? But I did think that there was a really important and quite beautiful bit in the book. Where you talk about your mum. And I'm, I, I think I'm right, your mum bringing home a young girl.
39:31 Speaker 05 Yes.
39:31 Jessie Ware? To live with you.
39:33 Speaker 05 Yes.
39:34 Jessie Ware? Who you now realise was pregnant.
39:37 Speaker 05 Yes.
39:37 Jessie Ware? Who had been raped.
39:40 Speaker 05 Yeah.
39:40 Jessie Ware? At, at the age of thirteen. And your mum, because it was so frowned upon, that she would be pregnant. And then unmarried in your area, it was, I mean, it's.
39:52 Speaker 05 Yeah, and it's just the fact that if, you know, she became a mother, like.
39:56 Jessie Ware? Without being married.
39:59 Speaker 05 You have no idea how many girls have been killed for that. So it is about not just life and death because of, you know. The fact that a girl is pregnant at such a young age and that has a huge risk to her health.
40:11 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
40:11 Speaker 05 But also that if the family or if like men in the family find out, they kill them in the name of honour. So my mum knew that there was just no future for her. There was, this was the only way out for her, to save her.
40:29 Jessie Ware? And I did think it was a really powerful moment in the book because you kind of, you, you had kind of more empathy. And understanding of your mum. Your mum had been brought up in a very different. Well, I mean, you have a shared culture, of course, but you spent a lot of your time from the age of fourteen, fifteen in Birmingham. And whether it was your mum being very worried about the fact that
40:56 Jessie Ware? you had been photographed coming back from rowing practice in jeans.
41:00 Speaker 05 Yeah.
41:01 Jessie Ware? But you still had your.
41:02 Speaker 05 Still got your jeans on, my love.
41:04 Jessie Ware? Yes, of it. But I did think it, can can we talk about your mum a bit more and how writing this maybe helped mend your relationship maybe a little bit?
41:15 Speaker 05 I always thought my mum would never understand me and I was always mad at my mum that she had a problem with what I wore and she was always worried about how my family members, my cousins would react in our village, even though we were miles away.
41:31 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
41:31 Speaker 05 But somehow that culture was just coming back and influencing my life.
41:35 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
41:37 Speaker 05 So when my mum saw that picture of me wearing jeans, she was so mad at me. She's she said like, why do you always cause trouble? Now I have to go and and explain it to people and I and and I can't.
41:49 Jessie Ware? Hmm.
41:51 Speaker 05 And my mum also had, you know, and it's not just that one incident. It's like again and again, my mum would say, why are you wearing this? Why are you wearing that? Wear something more traditional. She also was very, you know, she she also had an opinion about like everything, my marriage and so so many things.
42:08 Jessie Ware? Mm hmm.
42:09 Speaker 05 That when.
42:11 Jessie Ware? She was adamant that your husband would have to speak Pashto.
42:15 Speaker 05 Yeah, so, you know, we speak different languages. He speaks Urdu and Punjabi. Our mother tongue is Pashto, so my mum also had a problem with that. And I said to my mum, I told my mum that it's about me and him, like, we are marrying each other. He does not have to meet the criteria of everybody else in the family.
42:34 Speaker 05 But for my mom, it was just also about the pressure that she faced growing up.
42:39 Jessie Ware? Hmm.
42:41 Speaker 05 And it helped me reflect on what her childhood was like, what had she experienced. And for her, you know, the things that they had to fight for were just as simple as not being married off to a horrible man.
42:55 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
42:55 Speaker 05 And if they're beaten, that the family will actually support them, rather than telling her, go back to your husband.
43:01 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
43:02 Speaker 05 Or when a girl is raped, that people don't blame her, but they actually save her and stand with her.
43:08 Jessie Ware? Hmm.
43:08 Speaker 05 So when I think about all of these things, and when I was reflecting on the story that, you know, my mom had saved a girl's life who was raped. Um, and, and, you know, she helped her to get an abortion.
43:20 Speaker 05 I could understand where she was coming from. And I knew that for her, it was a bit, she could not process why I would cause trouble just by wearing jeans. Where there were other bigger problems to be worried about. Um, but, you know, at the same time, I, I would try to explain to her that, of course, things were different in her time, but we always have to take a stand. For the things that we believe in, otherwise things will remain as they are. Uh, but I understand my mom more. I knew what her life was like when she was young and. I asked her what her dream life was, and she simply said to marry a good guy who could respect her. And she could live in the city and enjoy delicious food, kebab in the rain.
44:06 Speaker 05 And drive in a car and, and that was just all she was, she was saying. And I tried to rephrase my question and say, but mom, like, no, what did you want to be and what was your dream? And there was no answer.
44:18 Jessie Ware? She wasn't allowed to have a dream?
44:20 Speaker 05 And just for a second, I just thought like, maybe she just grew up in an environment where they could not even picture it.
44:29 Speaker 05 And for them, the most ambitious dream that they could have was being with a with a husband who was nicer and not horrible.
44:39 Speaker 04 I was thinking, Malala, you inherited this this crown, really, that you have to wear, and it must feel very heavy sometimes, this responsibility that you have. Because it's like you've got global responsibility for female education now. You're the pinnacle of everyone's hopes that you can put things right, in a way.
45:03 Speaker 05 I received these titles and recognition at a very young age. If you compare the average age of the Nobel Peace Prize winners, they're in like their sixties and seventies. And they have already been presidents and prime ministers. They have been activists their whole life.
45:22 Speaker 04 Yeah.
45:22 Speaker 05 But I just could not even compare my life with any of them to figure out a way how I am supposed to live mine. I was still seventeen when I won that. And at seventeen, like you're figuring out what subjects to study and you're ma- you want to make friends, you want to feel loved and you want to find the love of your life.
45:46 Speaker 04 Yeah.
45:47 Speaker 05 You know, you want to gossip sometimes, maybe, or just talk about anything, talk about astrology. And I felt that I was assuming that after this recognition, I somehow have to live a different life.
46:01 Speaker 04 Hmm.
46:02 Speaker 05 And and the life that's portrayed of these activists in media, in our textbooks, um, you know, sort of the the Mother Teresa or you know, Nelson Mandela, or like the Martin Luther King Junior journey.
46:18 Speaker 05 But, you know, we also, you know, about them, like, we just know very little about their personal lives. And and I was sort of, I felt stuck between that, that, you know, what is the expectations, what is?
46:31 Speaker 05 How am I supposed to live my life? And then I realized that, you know, there is no right or wrong way. There there is no written way. You have to write it yourself.
46:40 Speaker 04 Hmm.
46:40 Speaker 05 And and I have to be a person of my age. I have to be. And and I felt like at times I was acting like somebody much younger than my age because I thought I was reliving it.
46:52 Speaker 04 Hmm.
46:53 Speaker 05 I would enjoy every moment with my friends. If we were talking about comparing the star signs of our, you know, crushes or if we were complaining about our homework assignments. Because this was part of my everyday life and I could not dissociate myself from that. Uh so at college, I felt like I was in a safe zone.
47:16 Speaker 04 Hmm.
47:16 Speaker 05 And it was a good way of escapism from the work life. And I felt like I, you know, I was just like switching between these these different worlds of like work and then what I was seen publicly to then this college life. And what made it different in college was the friends.
47:31 Speaker 04 Hmm.
47:31 Speaker 05 Because they treated me as a friend and nothing else, nothing more, nothing less. To them, it was it was just their college, college buddy.
47:39 Speaker 04 I know that you have terrible PTSD and because of the horrific injuries you suffered. Is there some way of rationalizing that terrible incident in that it's given you this platform that somehow it can mitigate against the horrificness of that how horrible it was? Because actually, you've became Malala, this world renowned activist who has such a purpose in life that some of us would never ever have.
48:10 Speaker 05 So I have been asked this question many times. Do I wish my life was different? Do I wish this had never happened? Or would I have wanted to live in Pakistan forever? And I used to say yes.
48:22 Speaker 04 Hmm.
48:23 Speaker 05 Because, you know, who wants to be attacked? Who wants to to to face all of this trauma? But in these years, I have been reflecting on the impact I have had.
48:36 Speaker 05 And it's not just about, you know, my story being unique, but me highlighting to people that the story of me as a young activist is actually not a unique story. There are incredible girls and young women activists out there. We need to give more support to them. So to look at how many students, how many girls we have reached through the work of Malala Fund, to look at how there has been more financial commitment towards girls' education, how secondary education has become part of the UN Sustainable Development Goals, and I can just, you know, keep on adding more to the list. And when I think about the school that we're supporting in our village, Shangline, Pakistan,
49:19 Speaker 05 where more than seven hundred girls are studying right now, the first class graduated from that school. Oh, congrats. And it has redefined the future of girls for that whole village. Girls dream differently now because they know they have a school, they can complete their education. We have created a pathway. And, and when I think about all of that, I feel like, yes, you know, I, I would not pick a different path for my life. This was somehow the right path. It had pain, it had difficulties, it had trauma, but when I think about how I, you know, with the support of the people, I, I change the direction and the focus and I
50:03 Speaker 05 can now impact so many girls, um, I'm grateful for it.
50:07 Speaker 04 Do you need more sauce?
50:09 Speaker 05 No, no, it's. Blame to your sauce.
50:11 Speaker 04 It's delicious, Jessie.
50:12 Speaker 05 The food is delicious, by the way. It's so good. It's so good. I will make this again.
50:16 Speaker 04 God, it's gorgeous.
50:17 Speaker 05 It is so good.
50:18 Speaker 04 It is stunning.
50:19 Speaker 05 I, it's, it's quite tasty.
50:21 Speaker 04 Delicious.
50:22 Speaker 05 I'd say.
50:23 Speaker 04 It's hot. Do you find it hot?
50:25 Speaker 05 I mean, there's, there's.
50:26 Speaker 04 No, no, you haven't got to the end. I'm telling you, there's a kick at the end.
50:28 Speaker 05 There's two, there's two hundred twists of pepper in there. Okay. Along with the peppercorns as well. I know, I really had to work hard at this, Malala, I just want you to know. My wrists are exhausted. Um, but no, I think I would do this recipe again, Feester.
50:45 Speaker 04 How many times did you see Taylor Swift?
50:49 Speaker 05 Oh, just once.
50:50 Speaker 04 Only once. Have you been to the Oasis concert?
50:53 Jessie Ware? Yeah, it was so good, wasn't it?
50:56 Speaker 05 It was so good. I went to see it in Dublin. It was amazing. Yeah.
51:00 Speaker 04 Did you wear a bucket hat?
51:02 Speaker 05 Of course.
51:04 Jessie Ware? It was, it was.
51:05 Speaker 05 You have to.
51:06 Speaker 04 Do you, does everyone wear a hat?
51:08 Jessie Ware? I actually didn't and I felt very left out.
51:10 Speaker 05 Oh, okay.
51:11 Jessie Ware? I didn't have any.
51:12 Speaker 05 How did you feel then?
51:13 Jessie Ware? Malala just looked me up and down and went.
51:16 Speaker 04 Call yourself a fan.
51:17 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
51:20 Jessie Ware? So we've got the dessert. It looks beautiful. What is it, Mum?
51:24 Speaker 04 It's a Mithai mango cake. Mithai, I think, means Indian sweet.
51:30 Speaker 05 Yes.
51:31 Speaker 04 Or it's sweet Indian for sweet.
51:33 Speaker 05 Yes, India, Pakistan.
51:34 Speaker 04 Yeah.
51:35 Speaker 05 Or South Asia, yes.
51:36 Speaker 04 And because Malala likes mango, that's why I made it. And let's hope it tastes.
51:42 Jessie Ware? Really good, Mum.
51:43 Speaker 04 It does look good, but you never know.
51:45 Speaker 05 Yeah, I can't stop looking at it. I've been staring at this the whole time.
51:50 Jessie Ware? Okay, last supper. Starter.
51:52 Speaker 05 Starter? Hash browns. I think hash brown would be good.
51:56 Jessie Ware? Okay.
51:57 Speaker 05 I know it's odd, I think it's.
51:59 Jessie Ware? Um, are you getting them from a particular establishment?
52:02 Speaker 05 I think it's from college.
52:04 Jessie Ware? Okay, oh, what, from the like, the lunch hall?
52:06 Speaker 05 Yeah, it's, it's the dining hall. It's a buffet kind of a option and I would always choose hash brown.
52:16 Jessie Ware? I love that. Okay, so we're starting with hash browns. Where are we going after that for your main?
52:21 Speaker 05 For my main, I'm gonna have my mom's rice and curry. It's basmati rice. It's delicious. And then the curry is chicken curry and I, and I love the sauce. I just, I just love the mix of the two.
52:37 Jessie Ware? Can I ask about your grandma who you speak about so beautifully in the book?
52:41 Speaker 04 Abai, is it Abai?
52:43 Speaker 05 Abai.
52:43 Speaker 04 Abai. Mean grandma.
52:45 Speaker 05 Yeah, it's a nickname for grandma.
52:47 Jessie Ware? Did, was she a good cook?
52:50 Speaker 05 She was a good cook, yes.
52:51 Jessie Ware? What's a memorable dish that your grandma made?
52:53 Speaker 05 It was always some chicken curry.
52:55 Jessie Ware? Okay.
52:55 Speaker 05 With um bread made from maize flour. I don't know what's it called. Is it corn flour? Is it different?
53:04 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
53:05 Speaker 05 It was like that flour, there would be, you know, spinach, like a dish with spinach and sometimes meat. Um she loved making chicken and just fresh yogurt. So they had fresh milk from, because you know, my grandfather and my uncles had cows and buffaloes. So yeah, fresh milk and then fresh yogurt and fresh cream. It's delicious.
53:29 Jessie Ware? Mmm. Okay, so we've got hash brown, your mum's chicken and rice.
53:36 Jessie Ware? Pudding, where are we going?
53:38 Speaker 05 I am not so picky about pudding, so.
53:41 Jessie Ware? Why? Because you like them all?
53:42 Speaker 05 I like them all. I love chocolate cake and all of those things, but I love any kind of cake. But my safe choice would be mangoes. I'll just take mangoes because mangoes make me happy, so happy. And this is a perfect dessert, by the way, the one you have made.
54:01 Jessie Ware? This is really good.
54:02 Speaker 05 It's like everything I want. It's like cream and a cake and it has mangoes in it.
54:08 Jessie Ware? Not too dry. No, it's lovely. It's gorgeous.
54:11 Speaker 05 It's amazing.
54:12 Jessie Ware? Can you taste the cardamom? I can't. I can't at all. I think two spoons would have been.
54:17 Speaker 05 You're asking the wrong person. I feel like I'm in a MasterChef show right now. What can I do?
54:25 Jessie Ware? I'd love to see you on Celebrity MasterChef. No, I wouldn't. Or Celebrity Bake Off. I'd be really interested to see what happened. Um and then drink of choice tea. I love it.
54:38 Speaker 05 English breakfast tea, always.
54:40 Jessie Ware? Um yeah, that's my favourite. I have so loved meeting you and chatting and I loved reading your books so much.
54:50 Speaker 05 Me too.
54:51 Jessie Ware? Can I ask you, before we let you go, what is a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere?
54:59 Speaker 05 There are a few.
55:00 Jessie Ware? Mm hmm.
55:01 Speaker 05 I remember this memory, spending time with my, my friends, where they would have
55:10 Speaker 05 bread from the day before, that they would heat up the next day. And they would have this tomato paste together with mint and a bit of salt. And they would have that bread with that tomato sauce or something. And it was, it was not, it was not like a dish that your family would make for you. It's just like when girls would get together, they would sort of pretend like it was their own meal. I would say, we would not have it as a meal, but just the fact like, oh, is there any leftover bread from like last night? Let's heat it up and let's get some tomato and like, uh, you know, mash it or um, mix it up with mint and and a bit of salt and let's just have it as our own meal and like pretend we are good cooks or something.
55:55 Jessie Ware? And these are your friends back in Pakistan?
55:57 Speaker 05 Yes.
55:57 Jessie Ware? I love that.
55:58 Speaker 05 Yeah.
55:59 Jessie Ware? Have you ever tried to make it since being in the UK?
56:03 Speaker 05 No, and I have this, um. I hope I can cook one day. That is my, my dream to be able to cook one day. I think it's a skill everybody should have. We should also be rethinking about how we see cooking being associated with gender. It should not be. Girls and boys, everybody should be cooking because it's a skill. It's like cleaning, using how to use your dishwasher and you know, anything like if you want to, to live a life of independence, you should be able to do these basic things. So I'm so glad like we're redefining these things and, but yeah, I love the eating part much more than the cooking part. And I love everybody who can cook and who can make these delicious meals for us.
56:48 Jessie Ware? Do you do karaoke?
56:50 Speaker 05 I'm so bad at karaoke.
56:51 Jessie Ware? Which one would you choose? Which is your best song then?
56:55 Speaker 05 Love Story by Taylor Swift.
56:56 Speaker 04 Oh, is that funny? I did that with my daughter on holiday.
57:01 Speaker 05 And I love it because my best friend Muniba and I used to sing it together in Pakistan. And I will have this memory forever in my mind where after the Taliban were removed from our town, we went on this school trip and we were in this beautiful part in the middle of the mountains with a waterfall behind us. And we went and stood on this big stone and we said we wanted to sing a song. And we started singing Love Story by Taylor Swift.
57:34 Speaker 05 I don't know how we had so much confidence that we managed to sing it in front of so many people. But for us, it was a way of expressing ourselves. And there's nothing more precious to girls who can be themselves, live and enjoy a moment and let themselves feel free.
57:56 Speaker 04 Thank you, Malala. Such a lovely story.
57:58 Speaker 05 Thank you.
57:59 Jessie Ware? Thank you. I wish you all the best with Memoir. I'm sure it's about to be a really busy time for you going and promoting it. But thank you for taking the time to do this podcast. It's been such a pleasure to chat to you and just to kind of get to know you even more. And I appreciate how open you've been in the book, but also today. So thank you.
58:18 Speaker 05 Yeah, thank you. But I'm not leaving you till I finish my dessert.
58:20 Jessie Ware? No, you're absolutely not.
58:22 Speaker 05 I know you're trying to end it, but.
58:24 Speaker 04 We're gonna go do Love Story in the other room. I'm gonna put it on.
58:42 Speaker 04 Well, that was fun.
58:43 Speaker 05 That was so gorgeous. Malala.
58:47 Jessie Ware? I love you and also I'd like to go to a Taylor Swift concert with you and also I'd really like to play paddle with you. She was fantastic.
58:55 Speaker 04 She was just wonderful. She's so young. You forget she's only 28.
59:02 Jessie Ware? I know. Total honour to have Malala on Table Manners. She loved the food. The food was good.
59:09 Speaker 04 It was fabulous.
59:10 Jessie Ware? Easter belfry, you are.
59:12 Speaker 04 I need that book.
59:13 Jessie Ware? You are fantastic. That's fusayo. I'm really sorry if I'm not saying that correctly.
59:17 Speaker 04 It's probably fusion because A O in Brazilian is a nuh on sound and it's probably fusion but spelt the Brazilian way darling.
59:28 Jessie Ware? But it's out now, I think. And it was the Spatchcock chicken kind of coke with dendé coconut and peppercorns. It was really delightful.
59:39 Speaker 04 Gorgeous.
59:40 Jessie Ware? And the coleslaw was really nice with it. And that's from another recipe in her book. So I'd say go and get the book.
59:45 Speaker 04 Yeah.
59:45 Jessie Ware? And that cake was excellent.
59:47 Speaker 04 Did you like it?
59:48 Jessie Ware? She was very happy about the mangoes.
59:49 Speaker 04 Yeah. And just thought she loves mangoes, that girl.
59:53 Jessie Ware? Yeah.
59:54 Speaker 04 Yeah.
59:54 Jessie Ware? I'd say we did quite well. Well done, Lenny. Malala's book, Finding My Way, is out now and it's really wonderful.
1:00:01 Speaker 04 It's a lovely book.
1:00:02 Jessie Ware? So go and read it. And you can also watch Bread and Roses, which she executive produced with Jennifer Lawrence, which is about three incredible Afghani women. I want to know more and more about Malala. I love her. I think what she's doing with Malala Fund is amazing and feel really, really honoured that she came over.
1:00:20 Speaker 04 If only she could sort the world out. The Malala way.
1:00:24 Jessie Ware? She's trying.
1:00:25 Speaker 04 Yeah.
1:00:25 Jessie Ware? We'll see you next week.
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