928: State of Devs 2025 Results

Wes and Scott talk about the 2025 State of Devs survey, diving into trends in salaries, job titles, remote work, health, hobbies, and more. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 01:44 Brought to you by Sentry.io 02:08 Years of experience vs yearly income 11:48 Layoffs 18:07 Job title 19:55 Remote work 24:40 Job happiness 25:40 Work hours 26:24 Workplace perks 26:53 What phones devs use 27:46 Desktop OS 28:44 Programming languages 29:29 Productivity apps 30:54 Social media 32:13 Median age of RSS feed users 33:41 Community contributions 35:37 Health and fitness 37:01 Health issues 39:11 Scott’s health update 42:28 Hobbies 45:54 Favorite music 47:10 Favorite video games 47:37 Favorite movies 49:35 Metadata Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Scott Tolinski?

  Welcome to Syntax. Today, we are talking about data for developers as we talk about the State of Devs survey that was just dropped, the State of Devs 2025. We love these surveys because they tell us so much about our industry. And we're going to learn a lot about developers today. These things get dropped all the time, but this one teaches a little us a little bit about whether like you have your, what jobs are out there, even the status of layoffs and things like that. But we're going to be talking about health, technology, the workplace, hobbies, all kinds of stuff. Who are developers these days based on this survey? As always, if you want to make these surveys more accurate, they do them all the time. So just do the, you know,

• 0:44Scott Tolinski?

  the, come to any of these surveys, whether it's State of JS, State of Devs, whatever, look out for them. I'm sure there's a subscription on here. You can like be alert to them. So if you're, if you're one of those people who's going to come in and be like, these aren't accurate. Well, then like, help make them accurate. We don't have any affiliation with State of Devs, but Sasha, who does put these together is a great guy and has always been a good friend of the pod. So shout out to Sasha for throwing these things. Wes, what's up?

• 1:09Wes Bos?

  Hey, excited to talk about this. I always love hearing information about developers because like, we're in our own bubble. You can assume things. Like, the one I can't wait to talk about is there's more Android users than iOS users, which I would not have guessed, although maybe I would have. You would have guessed that. All right. Well, we'll get on into that. But let's start with the, the career stuff. Talk a little bit about income and whatnot.

• 1:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, well, to introduce Wes, I should say that, of course, the voice you've been hearing and seeing on your screen is none other than Wes the Big Man Boss. My name is Scott Tolinski. I am a developer from Denver. Here with you as always is Syntax. We are presented by Sentry over at Sentry.io. Speaking of employment, Sentry.

• 1:55Scott Tolinski?

  Really great place to work. So always check out their hiring pages, careers pages on their website. Great company, doing great stuff, finding all your errors and fixing your code for you, or helping you fix it yourself. It's the best. All right. State of Devs 2025, we have pulled up here on the screen. If you're listening via audio, we will talk through this video, folks, it's on the screen. If you want to see it on video, youtube.com, Syntax FM on YouTube. Years of experience versus yearly income is the chart we have pulled up currently. And what stands out to you at this, on this chart? It seems like the 10th percentile for income of

• 2:34Scott Tolinski?

  all respondents is $30,000 a year, where the 90th percentile is $175,000 per year. Anything with the, with the average or the 50th percentile being $90,000 a year? Does anything in this chart stand out to you, Wes?

• 2:51Wes Bos?

  Yeah, the significantly lower salary for zero to four years is average of 30 grand. Now, this is, this is obviously in US, but this is global. So salaries in the US tend to be higher. It's something that is also in this survey as well. But it does stick out to me that the jump from zero to four to five to nine is over twice the, over twice the salary. And that's quite a bit, considering that a couple of years ago, we were talking about someone did a one week bootcamp and was making 150 grand out the door.

• 3:30Scott Tolinski?

  It's changed. Did you ever have a salary paying dev job?

• 3:35Wes Bos?

  No, no, I never, never have. I've always been a free agent, as you will. So this is not, it's kind of a funny thing is it's not something when people talk about it or ask me, hey, what can I expect to make? I don't necessarily know a whole lot of what to talk about. And then you also have to talk about like, Like comp and all the years and if you get part of the company.

• 3:58Scott Tolinski?

  Well.

• 3:58Wes Bos?

  Yeah, location is another big one.

• 4:00Scott Tolinski?

  Things like part of the company in comp and feature like those things are all only things that happen in like working in tech because a lot of doves out there who who listen to this show are going to be working for agencies or one off company. They're going to be a regular salaried employee at a company. And I remember my first salary dev job was working for an agency. I made $27,000 a year. That was in 2011. I was then bumped up to 36K after one year because I had like, you know, survived that one year and that was like their actual entry level. Yeah, I don't really know the circumstance to it, but either way, I for the most of the time I worked in that job, it was like 36,000.

• 4:45Scott Tolinski?

  So a lot of people think that everybody in tech makes a billion dollars, you know, whatever. But most people I think aren't working for the Silicon Valley companies out there. Now, granted, there's a lot of us that are. So some of you might not, you know, understand the range here, but that to me is one of the big, big things I see. You know, five to nine years is when it starts to open up where people are making six figures, getting into $114,000. But that's still like in the 19th percentile where like it says the, you know, the 50th percentile here is 68,000. And then when you get into 10 years of experience, that when that way you're getting in a bit more into the six figure territory with some making significantly more.

• 5:24Scott Tolinski?

  You know, the thing I thought about, found about this interesting was that like you get into, you know, 25 to 29 years of experience. And the 50th percentile is like 120,000, basically 118,000. And then over 30 years, the 50th percentile is 120,000. So it goes higher, but then it's probably just because there's less respondents, you see less outliers. So like more of it's clustered. So it does seem like it does correlate to years of experience here, but I would imagine there's definitely some folks who have been working a long time and are still under that like six figure number just because of where they're working rather than like, yeah, uh, how long.

• 6:06Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Where's, where's the state of management, um, state of developers who moved into management?

• 6:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, right. Yeah.

• 6:16Wes Bos?

  Then we'll see it.

• 6:16Scott Tolinski?

  No kidding.

• 6:17Wes Bos?

  A higher education degree. How many of these people have a higher education degree? Fifty-six percent in a related field and 22%

• 6:26Scott Tolinski?

  That's me.

• 6:27Wes Bos?

  in an unrelated field.

• 6:28Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, that's me.

• 6:28Wes Bos?

  You're an unrelated.

• 6:30Scott Tolinski?

  I'm unrelated, yes. Music is not that closely related. Was a music major, folks. I do not play an instrument. I play lots of instruments. I don't play an instrument well, and I can't sing. Pretty much the least talented music major to ever exist.

• 6:43Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 6:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yearly income versus degree. It's interesting that it seems like it doesn't really matter. The outliers are still the same. It does seem like people with a degree have a higher like baseline and a higher average. The 50th percentile is 90K versus 70K. So maybe that degree is still counting for something in this regard. But, you know, the upper bounds are still the same. Employer count. Residents who have worked for how many companies? And you've worked for no companies, Wes?

• 7:19Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I'm at zero so far. Or if you count how many companies I've worked with, it's probably 10 times.

• 7:26Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, well, nobody's counting that. It's how many companies you worked for. How you ever been salaried? W2ed at a company.

• 7:34Wes Bos?

  Yeah, zero.

• 7:35Scott Tolinski?

  Zero.

• 7:36Wes Bos?

  I'm unemployable, as I like to say, but what have we got here? The average number of companies that people have worked at is 4.2. And then if you look at the highest paying salaries, the more companies people have worked with is higher. So it's kind of interesting because like, does that just mean be that they've been there longer? Or does that mean like a lot of people will tell you the way to get more money is to hop around? You know, many times I've talked to people where they're like, yeah, I got 40 grand salary bump just by quitting one job and starting another.

• 8:17Wes Bos?

  And you probably would not get that 40 grand salary bump staying at the same company.

• 8:23Scott Tolinski?

  I've thought here. I had a, my first dev job, I made thirty six. My second dev job, I had, you know, I got that little bump from working at that job. But I got a substantial bump in my second job. And then I got a substantial bump in my third job. And I will tell you folks, it has been my experience that if you can get those big jumps, that's a good opportunity to take those jumps. Now that second job, I didn't really like the second job. So even though I got a good bump from it, I didn't really like the job. So that's why the third job was really great, got another bump there.

• 9:07Scott Tolinski?

  But that was my last W two job until I joined Sentry. So for me, those big jumps in my salary always came from finding a new job. And I had gotten raises here and there, whatever, but the big, big jumps always came from finding a new job.

• 9:29Wes Bos?

  What do you say to people who say that looks bad on your salary where you only have a couple of years under six or seven different companies, you know, like would that deter somebody from wanting to hire you?

• 9:42Scott Tolinski?

  I had three different jobs. It's not like I had ten different. Yeah, I think there's a point at which it becomes, oh, this person's not going to stick around. I think there is that. I think that absolutely does exist and that might prevent you from getting some jobs. But there is also a point where you can apply for jobs, you can interview for jobs, and you do not have to accept that job offer. Like if I apply for a job and it is a nice salary bump and everything works out. I don't see any reason to make that not make that leap. But if it is like you're changing jobs every six months, that's going to look bad on your LinkedIn. Sure. But if you plan on getting a job and you know, the job security is there and it is a higher bump.

• 10:27Scott Tolinski?

  And you're just going to stick there for as long until somebody else comes knocking. Now, I don't even know if this world exists anymore, but I think you, you, you try to tick pick the opportunity. That's going to be the safest long-term for you and, and have the, the greatest value jump. To me, that has always been the thing. If, if I'm moving to this job, what's the likelihood? I will get let go. Now, one of my big jumps came with a, a notice essentially that this was possibly going to be a short-term opportunity. And to, you know, it could be extended or whatever, but it wasn't contract based. And it was like, just be prepared that this product or project could fizzle out.

• 11:07Scott Tolinski?

  And that was a conversation we really had to have like, seriously, is the salary bump worth it on that chance? And I had the, I had the card in my back pocket of level up tutorials to be like, you know what? I really want to do level up tutorials full-time and the salary bump is going to give me a nice runway to be able to pursue that. So if let's say the project does end, I then get to pursue my project full-time. And that's actually ended up what happening. So there's that, there's a lot of factors here beyond just jumping jobs. But every, every job jump I had, I, I think I, I made the right choice. It is interesting though. Yeah, I'm not surprised by that. The job increases.

• 11:49Scott Tolinski?

  Let's do layoffs next here. Layoffs. So 8% of folks during the past 12 months have been laid out. That's 656 respondents out of the eight and a half thousand, 23% have said yes sometime before the past 12 months. This is have you ever been laid off? Not like you've been laid off and you're still looking or any of that, which I, I think might be a more important. Quite like, have you been laid off and you are unable to find a job currently, which is something that I would be interested in. I've never been laid off 69% of folks, which is, that's a good thing. 69% of folks. Yeah, it's obviously nice. I've never been laid off at all. That's great.

• 12:33Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I'm surprised at this. I, you would have thought that it would be. Like worse, like even higher, you know, a talk of tech being

• 12:41Scott Tolinski?

  Well.

• 12:41Wes Bos?

  Google laying off a good chunk of their employees, you know?

• 12:44Scott Tolinski?

  I think that is absolutely happening and that absolutely does exist. But there has been other periods in other jobs and even in web dev where there were lots of layoffs. You know, there's ebbs and flows to this stuff. Now, who knows the long term of anything here, but.

• 12:59Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 12:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 13:00Wes Bos?

  If you go to country, Australia has no layoffs in the last 12 months.

• 13:04Scott Tolinski?

  How many respondents? 200 respondents?

• 13:07Wes Bos?

  200. Pretty good. Maybe just, obviously, nobody that has been laid off just yet in Australia, but

• 13:15Wes Bos?

  USA, 9% of it. So the highest layoffs in the last 12 months has been Brazil. And then.

• 13:22Scott Tolinski?

  By percentage, but only 139 respondents.

• 13:25Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's true. It's maybe not a big enough sample size.

• 13:28Scott Tolinski?

  20 folks, yeah. This is a bit interesting, but at the same regard, it does look pretty even across the board in terms of percentages. There's like, like you said, the outlier of Brazil only like makes sense when you look at there's only 120 respondents. All respondents, yeah, 8%. USA, 9%. So USA is pretty much around the average here, which is expected, given that they are 1,000 of the 8,000 respondents.

• 13:54Wes Bos?

  If you go to the next page on workplace, one crazy stat is that the average salary difference between job titles containing engineer and those containing developer is $44,939.

• 14:09Scott Tolinski?

  The average salary difference between job titles containing engineer and those containing developers, $44,000. So get yourself an engineering title if you can. Apparently, that's.

• 14:20Wes Bos?

  You're not allowed to call yourself an engineer in Canada unless you are.

• 14:24Scott Tolinski?

  States then.

• 14:26Wes Bos?

  Hard pass, hard pass. But in Canada, that, that term of engineer is like a legally binding one. And the, I don't know if this happens in the States, but when you graduate as an engineer in Canada, you get a pinky ring.

• 14:40Scott Tolinski?

  Oh.

• 14:40Wes Bos?

  Which is, and then you just carry, you just wear around this like iron pinky ring all year round.

• 14:46Scott Tolinski?

  That's pretty dope.

• 14:47Wes Bos?

  But like, they build bridges and do things like that. And if they're legally liable, right? If you, if you build an app that crashes and someone dies, I don't know that you would be liable, but if you're an engineer and a bridge collapses and you signed off on that, then yeah, you could go to jail.

• 15:05Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. You know what's interesting about this? I didn't even know that web developers got the title of engineer until, I don't know, mid, mid 2010s, like 2015 or something? I don't, I didn't even know that people got the, because I was just always web developer. I was almost a developer ninja at some point, you know? Like that's when I started in the industry, job titles were all like, we need a web dev wizard. My first job title as a developer was an interactive producer. Uh, and then I, I became a senior interactive producer. Um, then I became a web developer.

• 15:38Wes Bos?

  I thought engineer was the, the guy who sits in the caboose of the train and shovels coal into the, the engine, right?

• 15:45Scott Tolinski?

  Well, my dad is an actual engineer. He, uh, he designed sunroofs for a living. He has like patents and stuff and he had like, like window regulator designs. And to me that's like, or worked on window regulators and stuff. To me that's engineer. When I saw people were getting the engineer title, I'm like, my dad engineer. I'm not engineer, my dad is. You know? But, uh, like that felt like fraudulent for me to be like, I'm an engineer when I know like the difference in what we do, you know?

• 16:13Wes Bos?

  Yearly income, I want to, don't look at this. I want you to guess what is the highest country? Or maybe the highest three countries by income? And the, guess the lowest three average incomes?

• 16:28Scott Tolinski?

  Are the sample sizes large enough?

• 16:32Wes Bos?

  Uh, it doesn't matter. This is a fun game.

• 16:34Scott Tolinski?

  Fun game. I would put US up there for in the, the highest.

• 16:38Wes Bos?

  US is by far the highest. Um, at a hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars, fifty average salary.

• 16:46Scott Tolinski?

  I would put Japan as one of the lowest.

• 16:49Wes Bos?

  It doesn't, doesn't put Japan in here just because likely didn't have enough, enough people.

• 16:54Scott Tolinski?

  Uh, but put, uh, Germany high? I don't know. I'm just going through places I know developers at. That's what's happening to me.

• 17:03Wes Bos?

  All right. I'll tell you a top three as a US with 175 Australia 125 grand and Switzerland also 125 grand. Israel is also up there. Canada, after that, it drops off quite a bit. You get Canada, Denmark. Canada is not known for its tech salaries, which is we, we have something here called the brain drain, which is unfortunately, a lot of our good developers go down to the States and, uh, and work there. So those are, those are the top ones. And then the lower end ones, this isn't every single country. Yeah. Netherlands, Poland and Sweden being

• 17:42Scott Tolinski?

  There's a lot of great developers in the Netherlands. I, I love going to the Netherlands and seeing, uh,

• 17:47Wes Bos?

  Yes. Big fan. That's because they have, um, high quality of life there. They're just having croquettes all day and drinking coffee and riding their bike to work. Yeah. Enjoying it all.

• 18:00Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I, I do, I do every single time I go to Amsterdam for JS Nation. It's like, man, I really like it here. It's pretty cool.

• 18:07Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 18:08Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, job title. I thought this was interesting. What percentage of people have what titles? So 19% of people have software engineer. Okay. Uh, then just developer 15, senior engineer 13. A lot of senior engineers or senior engineer. Yeah. Front end developer. Yeah. What's interesting? Full stack developer as a title. 4% of folks have a full, I didn't, I didn't ever, never seen that as a title. I've seen that as being your responsibility, but I've never seen that as

• 18:36Wes Bos?

  That's what I call myself. That's interesting. If, if, when people ask me what to write on like a conference badge or like, like what your title is, or like often they'll ask me like, because I own my own company. They're like, what do you do? And like, what is your title at, at your company? And it's either like, am I the CEO? Not really. I always just say full stack developer.

• 18:59Scott Tolinski?

  I have a job title now. My, my job title

• 19:02Wes Bos?

  What is it?

• 19:03Scott Tolinski?

  Is executive producer. That was part of our deals. I got a fancy job title. So I've, I'm an executive producer and the best part about having executive in your job title is that you get a lot of emails from companies being like, you sir, our decision maker at Sentry Corporation. Like you know, you can make all kinds of decisions at Sentry proper. And I'm like, bro, I make a podcast. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 19:30Wes Bos?

  I can decide on CSS methodologies.

• 19:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, I'll tell you what kind of camera you should be using for your podcast. But yeah, I was surprised by full, full or even like technical lead shirt, front end engineer. Yeah, this is kind of interesting. Lead, I don't see a single one of these people say interactive producer. I don't know where my company got the title of interactive producer.

• 19:55Wes Bos?

  Remote work. This one's really interesting. What percentage of people have no remote work? Only 5%.

• 20:04Scott Tolinski?

  That's crazy.

• 20:04Wes Bos?

  I would have thought that'd be higher. So 38% are hybrid. That's by far the largest amount.

• 20:11Scott Tolinski?

  Which makes sense. You, you went remote during COVID and now it's like, we gotta have you back in some capacity.

• 20:17Wes Bos?

  But yeah. 24% exclusively remote. And then 33% are up to the employee. So you can go into the office or you can go remote.

• 20:30Scott Tolinski?

  If you were up to the employee, would you go into the office ever if the office was easy to get to?

• 20:37Wes Bos?

  Specifically me, no, because my job requires yapping on a microphone all day. But I also, I don't like office culture. Like I find it annoying that people, oh, you want to go for coffee? You want to have lunch? No, I want to sit here and dial in and work my buns off. And I don't want to have to do any of the small talk or whatever. I do like the ability to roll over to someone's desk and say, hey,

• 21:08Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, hey.

• 21:09Wes Bos?

  All right, what do you, what do you think about this? Or like that? And, and, or be able to like brainstorm, you know, hey, let's pop into a room real quick and, and talk this through. I think you certainly miss a lot of that, but I don't like all of that. I do see why a lot of these companies are, are pushing people back into. Into the office. Um, and I think that it's partially because of like teamwork and whatever, but I do think it's that a lot of people are just dicking off at home.

• 21:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Wes Bos?

  Doing laundry and stuff. What do you think?

• 21:38Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I don't want to like, I don't want to throw shade on remote work. I remote work remotely. I just think being around people in general enough, like I think a lot of people just dick around. I, and I think that a lot of people would happily say they dick around and get paid for it and be fine with that. Not like massive percentage of people, but like, yeah, I, man, I, I, I just know that like even in the office, people dick around. So given the opportunity to, you know, not have somebody watching over you, you know, you might pop on Netflix or something. Me personally, if there was an office, sentry office in Colorado or in Denver, within a reasonable distance from me, I think I would go in there at least a couple of days a week, every week.

• 22:22Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 22:22Scott Tolinski?

  I think I would.

• 22:23Wes Bos?

  Uh, I've come.

• 22:24Scott Tolinski?

  I'd like removing myself from my typical location, like go to a coffee shop, work from someplace different around the house or whatever.

• 22:35Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 22:35Scott Tolinski?

  Because it puts my brain in a position of different environment, different function. If I'm in the same place for too long or whatever, I can get stalled out or I can just get like, kind of like haze on me or something. But if I go to the office, I like that energy. And unlike you, I do like office culture and I do like to chit chat and be amongst, uh, like go for walks and all that stuff. To me, that helps my brain decongest, you know, issues or problems at work or with the stuff I'm trying to do. I also like that feedback. So I, I do, I do wish there was a, a Colorado Denver office for me to just stop on in and hang out. And then like days I'm recording, stay here or whatever. I, I would like that. I don't know why.

• 23:17Wes Bos?

  Not a bad idea. The one thing I don't like is that I can go from being deep in like a bug or an issue and then I'll, I'll look up and it's like 5:03 and I'm like, oh man, I gotta, I gotta start cooking dinner like right now. So I go up and then it's just like wham, like dinner, kids problems. And just, I'm just like,

• 23:42Wes Bos?

  I was like,

• 23:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 23:43Wes Bos?

  I was, I was traversing an AST like 30 seconds ago. Give me a sec. I need that like come down. I don't have that come down at all, especially as like at the end of the day, I'm always trying to scramble to like wrap stuff up before the end of the day. And then if, if you don't get it done in time, then you're just like, oh, man, I'm, I'm so out of it.

• 24:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I know for me, it's, it's, I feel like my day is so like clustered down with different things. It's like, all right, you finally have an opportunity to grind on some code. It's four to five. I gotta get as much done as possible in this hour. Yearly income, it, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't really seem like it makes a difference necessarily. Hybrid is being up kind of the highest amongst depends on the role or mostly remote, exclusively remote, hybrid, no remote work, still has basically the same range. It looks like there, there's not a ton of correlation there and there, there could be something here, but it's not like obvious. Okay. Here's another interesting thing is job happiness.

• 24:43Scott Tolinski?

  The one on the left is if you are not allowed remote work and very unhappy has a massive 11%, which is only 42 respondents, but 18% says unhappy, 35% neutral. And only 25 or 27% happy with a very little 8% of being very happy. Where if you compare that to remote work is.

• 25:06Wes Bos?

  Quite a bit happier. 3.7% happy or 3.7 out of five happy.

• 25:11Scott Tolinski?

  Is the average.

• 25:12Wes Bos?

  Three out of five.

• 25:14Scott Tolinski?

  But if you look at the very unhappy, it's 3% verse 11. So that's like, yeah, a lot of people are very unhappy, uh, being, having to go into remote. But it's a, it's a pretty massive deficit. And the just happy in general, it seems like massively improved by having the access to remote work or having some hybrid, uh, working situation, which makes, makes sense. Hybrid to me makes the most amount of sense.

• 25:40Wes Bos?

  Okay. I have a quiz for you. What country puts in the most hours?

• 25:45Scott Tolinski?

  Why are you doing this to me? I don't know any of its answers. Um, puts in the most hours? I don't know, just because there's the most amount of respondents, the USA.

• 25:55Wes Bos?

  Now, India, 45 average hours. And France, 38 hours. I thought France had longer work hours. Every time I go there, people are like, let's go to dinner at 9:00 PM and get le poulet. You know, and it's, I thought that they worked way later than us, but maybe not.

• 26:17Scott Tolinski?

  Maybe not. Uh, yeah, most people average is 50th percentile is 40 across the board. So it's not really like there's a ton of variation here. I do want to highlight real quick on workplace perks. The number one most responsive thing is relationships. Oh, good relationships with coworkers. I thought that just said relationships with coworkers. I was like, okay, people. And it needed to scroll when I, because look, when I hover, before I hover, it just says relationships. Good relationships. That's a, that's a different meaning.

• 26:44Wes Bos?

  That the Coldplay company? Yes. How many people work there? They got relationships with coworkers.

• 26:50Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, that's so funny.

• 26:51Wes Bos?

  What a perk.

• 26:53Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. All right. Devs, what, what phones do they use? Android 53% versus iOS 47%. Not surprising to me. Android is a great operating system and I really like it. And anybody who talks crap about it can come talk to me. That's, uh, here's my iPhone. I, I used Android for a long time and I like it a lot. So I, I'm not surprised by that. It's, it's way better than what some of these like, huh, huh, green bubble. Uh, people would like to think.

• 27:23Wes Bos?

  Green bubble. No.

• 27:24Scott Tolinski?

  They're like, oh, you have a green bubble.

• 27:29Wes Bos?

  No, I, I agree. I think Android is, is really cool. I would love to be able to switch to it. I'm just, I'm just too far in. I'm too far in, but I don't know. We're seeing it. We're seeing a wave of people move off the Mac lately. So maybe, maybe that's in our future as well.

• 27:44Scott Tolinski?

  I don't see that happening to me. Yeah.

• 27:47Wes Bos?

  Desktop OS though, 57% of people using macOS, 28 on Windows, 15 on Linux. So.

• 27:56Wes Bos?

  Majority of developers using macOS as a, as development, which

• 28:02Scott Tolinski?

  It's easy. It's easy on Mac. It's Unix.

• 28:04Wes Bos?

  Just works.

• 28:04Scott Tolinski?

  Like, yeah, it just works. You see, everything just works on it. All my apps are here. People were wondering how we could use macOS as developers when Apple is trying to kill the web on mobile phones. And my answer to that is I have used macOS since 2003. I cannot stop. I am like, all my stuff's here. I'm sorry. I'm too embedded in the ecosystem. And the phone problem is that I picked up the, I was, uh, using Android and when we switched to iOS, my wife was like, if we're switching, like, I don't want to switch back anytime soon because I don't want to have to go through all that change. Yeah, that makes sense.

• 28:42Scott Tolinski?

  So I think we're stuck here. Uh, programming languages. Number one, 83% use JavaScript, 75% use TypeScript, 70% use CSS, 69 nice use HTML. Yes. You know what? Rust, 8%. I'm surprised it's that many folks. Honestly, I, you know, Rust has had a hype moment, but like, how many people are really using Rust?

• 29:04Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Scott Tolinski?

  Day to day.

• 29:05Wes Bos?

  That's way more, especially for like, obviously a very heavy web development audience that this survey has. 8% are, are slinging a little bit of Rust. 31, Python, 25% of PHP. That makes sense. Bash. Who names, who calls themselves a Bash programmer?

• 29:24Scott Tolinski?

  The people who would respond Bash on this survey.

• 29:26Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 29:27Scott Tolinski?

  Type of person. Productivity apps, 56% of people are having to use Jira. And I, that's right. I say having to use because I don't know who's picking that by choice.

• 29:36Wes Bos?

  Where's the, a job unhappiness? Because there's a query builder here. You could, you could technically filter, see, uh, the unhappy people, unhappy people in their job.

• 29:46Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yes.

• 29:47Wes Bos?

  What percentage of them use Jira and Windows together?

• 29:51Scott Tolinski?

  Oh my god. It does show that like, uh, larger company sizes do, uh, use Jira, obviously. Same with Azure. Surprisingly, Obsidian is somewhat high here. I always don't think about Obsidian as being like a, you know, a big, big place, uh, thing. Cause Notion, Asana, ClickUp, man. Okay. Linear. Yeah. A lot of people are using Linear, but mostly small companies.

• 30:15Wes Bos?

  37Signals one that we used years ago. Basecamp? Is that on there? I'm always curious about that. Like, not that Basecamp is bad, but I have not heard of anyone use Basecamp in years. Like, like 10 years.

• 30:30Scott Tolinski?

  You got 23 people out of 6,800 respondents use Basecamp. I will say, I used Basecamp when I worked for Ghostly International and I thought it was bad then. I have not used it since. No shade

• 30:42Wes Bos?

  I liked it back in the day.

• 30:43Scott Tolinski?

  Basecamp, I didn't. It was-

• 30:46Wes Bos?

  We had like a family Basecamp that I set up. We're having to do tasks and that, but man, it's, that was a long time ago.

• 30:54Scott Tolinski?

  Social media. I often wonder about social media stuff considering the patterns that we see. Looks like 44% of y'all are using Instagram. 44, next highest is LinkedIn, uh, and then 41% Reddit. Then Blue Sky and Twitter coming in very similar.

• 31:09Wes Bos?

  That's nuts. I would have thought Twitter would be much higher on that list, but Instagram, super high. LinkedIn, super high. Reddit makes sense.

• 31:21Scott Tolinski?

  It is funny though, like as far as the devs I follow and really like, I would say it is kind of 50/50 if they post on Twitter or just Blue Sky, you know, who I follow. So, I don't know. I go, I go to the apps for, uh, different people, I suppose.

• 31:34Wes Bos?

  Yeah, but like, I mean, like I would assume that most developers were either on Blue Sky or Twitter. Wouldn't, wouldn't you?

• 31:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, maybe.

• 31:44Wes Bos?

  And I also know that this survey was pushed pretty high on on Blue Sky and Twitter, but Twitter just tanks links to anything. So it was very hard. That that just goes to show that more people on the survey are using Blue Sky than Twitter. And that just goes to show how much Twitter is just nerfing anything that you're trying to to link to and put out there.

• 32:09Scott Tolinski?

  As always, the responses to this are who the responders are. Here's this, the median age of RSS feed users is 40, 35. Which episode CJ and I recorded about RSS, I was like, I'm probably the only 40 year old. I'm not 40 yet, by the way, folks, but I'm just about. I'm probably the only near 40 year old who who has never used RSS for anything, really. I'm now for podcasts, that's it. I've never used it for anything. I never really did Google Reader or whatever.

• 32:37Wes Bos?

  No.

• 32:38Scott Tolinski?

  I had CJ like telling me about RSS and I was just like, I never dang use this. I, yeah, I would, I would like just go to blogs. I was just typing in css tricks.com, you know?

• 32:50Wes Bos?

  Man, I was huge on RSS readers and I love that. And and to me, RSS just makes so much sense still, but I just have not used it in in probably like eight, 10 years or something like that. When Google Reader was shut down, that was it.

• 33:10Scott Tolinski?

  You got to check out the episode CJ and I did on RSS feeds because he talks about modern clients and modern RSS servers and hosting your own stuff and all. So it's pretty neat. So that was a really good episode.

• 33:22Wes Bos?

  Check it out, but I think just regular users want the all holy algorithm that will shovel them the slop that they need.

• 33:32Scott Tolinski?

  Please show hold me my slop today. Yes.

• 33:33Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 33:34Scott Tolinski?

  Let me, let me slop through five different things that I don't care about before you give me something that's like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Community contributions.

• 33:42Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 33:43Scott Tolinski?

  83% have used open source software. Sure. 59% have submitted issues or bug reports, which is very funny, given the context of some of the Conversations around the internet about FFM Peg where there's been a lot of conversation about people who write issues or angry reports or whatever without contributing code. Uh, I've contributed code to open source projects. Forty eight percent. That's a lot, which is great.

• 34:11Wes Bos?

  That I would say that's, that's good as well. Like that's

• 34:13Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 34:14Wes Bos?

  A significant half of the people that took the survey.

• 34:17Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 34:17Wes Bos?

  Have contributed back code. Like a lot of people that took a survey probably may not have the skills to, to push back to like, I could not contribute back to FFM Peg, right? But I'll run my mouth about it.

• 34:29Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, that's, that's kind of my situation as well. If I, yeah, if I can't, if I can't provide actual help, I'm not talking trash.

• 34:37Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 34:37Scott Tolinski?

  Thirty one percent have financially supported open source projects, which that's, that's great. It would be cool if that number was higher, but that seems extremely high. Yeah.

• 34:47Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Scott Tolinski?

  Given the nature, you know what I, cause you know, again, uh, like Chad says, open source is a gift economy, you know, like, uh, I, I think that's not like ideal number, but that's a high number.

• 34:58Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 34:58Scott Tolinski?

  From generally what, you know, you're relying on people to open up their wallets or companies to open up their wallets.

• 35:04Wes Bos?

  So Scott, you have to guess which race, gender crossover is the most supporting of, I'm not, not gonna make you do that.

• 35:14Wes Bos?

  Let's get Scott canceled.

• 35:16Scott Tolinski?

  Wes is pressing the cancel button. Wes pressing it.

• 35:21Scott Tolinski?

  I'm not answering that. I don't even know.

• 35:24Wes Bos?

  Oh no, but it does say that. No, I'm not, I'm not even gonna go there. No chance. No chance.

• 35:31Scott Tolinski?

  That's odd that that is even an option on this tab. Sasha, um, yeah. Okay. Um, let's talk about health, health and fitness. We love health and fitness. We gotta do our annual health and fitness episode again. And, and we should do that new year, new me territory. You know, we should just make that a whole dang month. New year, new me syntax. Have things like our, our, our health episode. Either way.

• 35:52Wes Bos?

  Probably activity.

• 35:54Scott Tolinski?

  Age, age is part of your health, apparently. So forty four percent of us fall into this thirty to thirty nine year old. Uh, and I say us because I fall into this right here. And Wes, I believe you do too, because I think you're younger than me by at least.

• 36:07Wes Bos?

  I am, I'm just asking Chad G P jet GPT how old I am. Cause I never know how old I am. I'm that old. I am thirty seven years old and the average age is thirty six point one. Um, so I am.

• 36:23Wes Bos?

  Just slightly. It's actually one funny thing is I look at all my stats from YouTube and TikTok and all that stuff and I have noticed that I am slowly aging out of my audience, which is funny because when I started, my audience was older than me.

• 36:39Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Wes Bos?

  And now they are, now they're the youngins. But yeah, 36.1 average age.

• 36:46Scott Tolinski?

  ChatGPT says Scott Tolinski is 38 years old because he refers to himself as having entered the advanced age of 38.

• 37:00Scott Tolinski?

  I did say that at one point, yes.

• 37:01Wes Bos?

  Health issues.

• 37:03Scott Tolinski?

  What, what health issues do you have?

• 37:05Wes Bos?

  No, I got no health issues. The most commonly reported health issue is poor sleep. 42% of people.

• 37:13Scott Tolinski?

  Poor sleep will kill you.

• 37:15Wes Bos?

  One thing to just be able to like nail is be able to like get good sleep, you know, like that seems like such a life hack to figure out how to get really good sleep.

• 37:24Scott Tolinski?

  That must be nice. Phil, that must be nice for all you people.

• 37:27Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 37:27Scott Tolinski?

  I'm a deep sleep.

• 37:29Wes Bos?

  Had that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, me too. But that's mostly because of children, not because of my own stuff.

• 37:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, mine is because of concussion. Weight issues, mental health issues, back pain, back pain. I thought back pain would be higher than that. I got back pain. headaches and migraines. Wrist and hand fatigue. Ergonomics, folks, I worked, I worked myself out of wrist and hand pain just by changing my ergonomics, that's for sure. Chronic fatigue, I think that goes along with poor sleep and some of these other ones. Joint pain. Hey, mental health issues, 30%. I want to take this opportunity to say.

• 38:04Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 38:04Scott Tolinski?

  We are going to have Dr. Courtney Tolinski on the show to talk about mental health challenges of any kind. She is a doctor of psychology. She is my wife. She's very brilliant and she's just a general great. We've had her on the show a couple of times to talk all things like ADHD and we've had a Q and A with her before. I want to offer this up again. If you have any questions about mental health stuff regardless, leave it anonymously

• 38:32Scott Tolinski?

  If you'd like, or pseudonym, or whatever, on our potluck form, just say anon, just say mental health, say this is for Courtney, whatever, leave those below in our potluck form on syntax.fm, and we're going to be doing a show where we ask her all kinds of mental health questions. She gives us answers. I've been living with her for long enough that I know how to, you know, kind of get more out of some of these answers if we need more to go deeper on some of this stuff. But she, it's gonna be great. I can't wait to have her on again, just because I always learn so much, picking her brain every single day. But yeah, if you, if you have any questions about mental health stuff, 30% of you who answered the survey, you know, if you got any ideas, we got, you know, a lot of interesting stuff on here. Wes, I'm gonna give a small health update for me, given that I have a

• 39:14Scott Tolinski?

  number of these things, given my recent injury. In recent February, I sustained a really bad concussion and whiplash. I talked about it on this show, when it first happened, I was out of it. I took some time off briefly, and many of you thought that was it. Now, if some of you have like wondered, I may have been like, seemingly not myself lately, that concussion took a massive toll on me. I had a ton of major issues from it. I was averaging about two hours of sleep a night for about a month and a half, which then turned into kind of a hellish experience of full body muscle twitches. I was averaging thousands of full body muscle, just twitches all over my body all day long for a long time. In

• 39:58Scott Tolinski?

  fact, even as recently when Wes was here for our syntax meetup and event in Denver, when that happened, I was still experiencing hundreds upon hundreds of muscle twitches a day. And it's been very tough for me mentally to get through that. But I do want to report that I took some good time off this summer at the request of my doctor to calm my nervous system down, spend some time on a beach, and I've calmed my nervous system down. I kid you not, my doctor asked me to spend time somewhere very, like the most relaxing place I could, and we went to a beach, and that became the first two days in a row that I have had since my accident, where I did not have any singular muscle twitches.

• 40:41Wes Bos?

  Wow, I was gonna ask you, that worked, like, very well?

• 40:47Scott Tolinski?

  It worked very well. And I will tell you what, since then, I have maybe had consecutive days, not like straight consecutive days, but I've had a streak of days like five, six, seven days long with no twitches. So that sincerely worked. Um, we went to Hawaii. I did have, like, this was a kid's vacation we had planned for a long time. I did have twitches on the vacation. I've had twitches since we've come back, but you know what? I had no twitches yesterday. I had no twitches today so far. And things are progressing better enough that if some of you may have felt like I feel lighter lately, it's because I don't have this massive weight. I also got a really in-depth brain scan done. My concussion is fully healed. I've been-

• 41:28Wes Bos?

  It's still in there?

• 41:29Scott Tolinski?

  Not still in there. Uh, I passed all the tests. If I was a football player, they would-

• 41:34Wes Bos?

  The brain?

• 41:35Scott Tolinski?

  -me back in.

• 41:35Wes Bos?

  Your brain is still in there?

• 41:37Scott Tolinski?

  The brain is still in there. The concussion is not still in there. It's gone.

• 41:40Wes Bos?

  Oh, good.

• 41:40Scott Tolinski?

  It said, it said, see you later. Uh, so people who may have been wondering what's up with me, that's what's up. Um, but I'm feeling much lighter and much better, uh, now. I'm able to go back working out and everything like that. So all up and up and up. So, uh, health issues. I understand them, folks. The poor sleep thing was killing me. So if you can't figure out your sleep, I took something called trazodone, which is an SSRI for sleep, I believe, or it's an antidepressant for, it might not be an SSRI. It's small dosage, not what you would take as an antidepressant. That knocked me out and kept me asleep and really saved my bacon. Went from two hours of sleep to eight hours. I know a lot of people don't want to take medication for this, but if you're getting really bad sleep, it's gonna screw up a lot of other stuff. So, not, not a medication

• 42:25Scott Tolinski?

  recommendation. Figure out your sleep. Something lighter here. Hobbies. Unsurprisingly, 61% of video games. I've been playing a lot of video games myself. Wes, how about you?

• 42:37Wes Bos?

  Uh, no, I have not been, been playing any video games and never, never have. We do have the original Nintendo, but I don't play that very often. You have a 61%, 58% movies, TV, 53% reading, half of them sports, exercise. It's kind of, that's what I was gonna say really quickly is that I'm trying the standing thing again. I, I've been trying the standing thing and I tweeted about it and people had some pretty good tips on, on how to get better. I just cannot get into the standing thing. So I'm, I'm giving it another go and I'll, I'll give you guys all an update in a couple of months.

• 43:11Scott Tolinski?

  Nice. Electronics as a hobby. I don't know. If we're talking about tech here, I don't think you can say electronics are your hobby, folks.

• 43:20Wes Bos?

  No, but I think-

• 43:20Scott Tolinski?

  That's like me on computer. I'm on computer. That's-

• 43:22Wes Bos?

  Like people who are like soldering and like ESP32, microcontrollers. That's probably what that is.

• 43:29Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. No, I get that.

• 43:30Wes Bos?

  Or people who are like into Discmans.

• 43:33Scott Tolinski?

  I'm having a giggle here. Discmans. We played the new Switch 2, Wes. You should consider it, man. We've been playing family Mario Kart. My daughter and I put the little Switch 2 on a kickstand on the plane and we played Mario Kart for like a long time on a flight and it was like a blast. She was just going nuts. Camping, yeah, pretty high at 15. Walking and hiking at 77 respondents. 77 people in this survey live in Denver because every single developer in Denver goes hiking.

• 44:02Wes Bos?

  So go to the next physical activity one and walking, hiking is by far the highest physical activity.

• 44:09Scott Tolinski?

  Well, people just don't call it a hobby.

• 44:11Wes Bos?

  Yeah. I guess I'm surprised to see how high the strength training is. 36% of respondents do strength training.

• 44:18Scott Tolinski?

  You know what? I think people have really grown to the fact that strength training is more than just gaining muscle. It's for general health and wellness throughout your entire life. I think that has become something that has become more common knowledge in 2025 and beyond. So I've been lifting myself since like 2015, which is how I got so muscular and handsome.

• 44:40Wes Bos?

  Just-

• 44:44Scott Tolinski?

  Uh, running, not my thing.

• 44:45Wes Bos?

  It does feel like it's pretty, pretty popular in the dev space as well, just getting into strength training. So I'm glad to see that. Running, biking, yoga, swimming, climbing. 7% of them are, but not so much into soccer. I thought soccer would be much higher than that.

• 45:02Scott Tolinski?

  Not so much into soccer. Well, maybe they call it football. Yeah. 1% into dancing. Where's my dancing, folks? I'm a dancer. That's what I do for fun. So-

• 45:10Wes Bos?

  What is paddle? P-A-D-E-L? Paddle?

• 45:15Scott Tolinski?

  I think that's like paddle paddle.

• 45:16Wes Bos?

  Why did I call it paddle?

• 45:18Scott Tolinski?

  Um, I don't know. I'm surprised some of these are so low. Basketball being so low. I, you know, I guess we did see the terminal basketball game and uh, that's makes sense.

• 45:31Scott Tolinski?

  Not super pretty. Um, I'm surprised more people play, do martial arts than do basketball though. That is interesting.

• 45:37Wes Bos?

  Martial arts seems like a hobby for a lot of people who get into web development. There's a high correlation between people who build

• 45:47Wes Bos?

  file browsers and people who do martial arts, I think.

• 45:49Scott Tolinski?

  People who have a samurai sword in their house.

• 45:51Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Video game platform. Oh, wait. Music? Where's this?

• 45:58Scott Tolinski?

  Linkin Park, Taylor Swift. How is Linkin Park number one? This is the year is this?

• 46:03Wes Bos?

  What the hell? How, how is, how was there options? Oh, you have to, you have to write them in.

• 46:09Scott Tolinski?

  Still Kendrick Lamar should be number one. I don't know where people, Tool. That is not a surprise knowing web developers. Radiohead, I love Radiohead, Sleep Token. Yeah.

• 46:18Wes Bos?

  Lots of metalheads. Surprise.

• 46:19Scott Tolinski?

  A lot of metalheads. This is a very fun.

• 46:22Wes Bos?

  I'm gonna find the first cool band on this entire list. Okay?

• 46:26Scott Tolinski?

  The first cool band is Kendrick Lamar and then uh, Radiohead.

• 46:31Wes Bos?

  No.

• 46:32Scott Tolinski?

  And then uh, Doi, uh, Dochi. Dochi, cool. Great album.

• 46:36Wes Bos?

  Imagine Dragons is not a cool band.

• 46:39Scott Tolinski?

  Imagine Dragons. Imagine Dragons.

• 46:43Wes Bos?

  As Imagine Dragons is like dad rock.

• 46:46Scott Tolinski?

  Dad rock for sure. I, I cannot imagine responding Imagine Dragons to a survey like this. Like, you know what? I really, you know, Coldplay. Geez, Coldplay. What year is this done in? Uh, Chapel Run. Not really surprised about that. That album was great. Lady Gaga, I am surprised. Pink Floyd. A lot of people are sitting around listening to Pink Floyd while they're developing that. I understand that. I get it. Yeah. Let's talk about favorite video games and video game platforms. Baldur's Gate 3, Bellatro. Bellatro, that is a game you do not need to get into, folks. Man, that will suck up your dang time. It's like poker, but the poker's rules are all wacky and you're trying to score points. It is very time sink you in, will suck you in. It's great.

• 47:30Wes Bos?

  I love it.

• 47:31Scott Tolinski?

  My favorite game on this list is Clear Obscure. That game was fantastic. Stardew Valley, obviously great. Favorite movies? Dune. Yes, sure, Dune.

• 47:40Wes Bos?

  Can we count how many of the top 20 I've seen?

• 47:43Scott Tolinski?

  Of the, okay, we'll do how many of the top 20 you've seen and how many of the top 20 I've seen. Oh, man, mine's actually not good. Yeah.

• 47:51Wes Bos?

  All right. I did my count. What are you at?

• 47:53Scott Tolinski?

  Four.

• 47:54Wes Bos?

  Four. I'm at one, and it's only because my kids took me to Wild Robot.

• 47:59Scott Tolinski?

  Well, okay. Yep. I've seen Dune, The Substance, The Substance Rules, and it made me sick to my stomach. I watched it in VR, and it was like too big and crazy. Dune Part Two, and then I did see Wicked, which I don't like musicals, and I don't like The Wizard of Oz, but I saw Wicked, and I gotta say the songs were enjoyable for the most part. Movies I'll actually see on this list, I will see Enora. I maybe will see Interstellar. I don't know why I haven't seen that by now. Oh, I did see The Lord of the Rings. I don't really care about the Aliens Romulus. Looks terrible. I would like to see everything everywhere all at once. The rest of them, I don't know. Sinners, maybe?

• 48:40Wes Bos?

  All right, let's do, let's do the same for TV shows.

• 48:43Scott Tolinski?

  Same for TV shows. Favorite TV shows. Okay. How many of them have we seen?

• 48:49Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Oh, I did pretty good.

• 48:52Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, I've seen five.

• 48:54Wes Bos?

  Oh, I did three. White Lotus, I've seen. Ted Lasso, which is fantastic. And The Office, obviously, everyone's seen The Office.

• 49:02Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, seen all three of those. And then I also saw an episode of Black Mirror, and then I did watch Severance for the first season. I've not put on the second season. Rest of this stuff? Yeah, I don't know. Where's Love Island? Where's Love Island?

• 49:16Scott Tolinski?

  Where is The Real Housewives? Where's The Last of Us? Yeah, I would rather play the video game. I don't need to see a TV show of that. Yeah. What TV am I watching? I don't know. Top Chef? Master Chef? Love Island? All these cooking shows and stuff? Lot of Bravo? Anything that's on Bravo?

• 49:35Wes Bos?

  Let's finish off in the metadata, see if there's any interesting thing in here. Browser is used to take the survey. Thirty-six percent Chrome. Why is there no answer for this one? You could, can't you tell what browser people are using?

• 49:49Scott Tolinski?

  I don't know if you really.

• 49:51Wes Bos?

  Fourteen percent Firefox, thirteen percent Safari, only two percent Microsoft Edge.

• 49:57Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, only 139 people are edging.

• 50:00Wes Bos?

  macOS still higher than Android and iOS?

• 50:04Scott Tolinski?

  Previous surveys. It looks like a lot of people have done previous surveys. 72% of people gave no answer for this. The source, State of Devs. Hey, Josh Komu, he's on Blue Sky. So 7% people came from Josh. Crazy.

• 50:17Wes Bos?

  CSS tricks too, Blue Sky, snowball sampling, daily dev. Cool.

• 50:23Scott Tolinski?

  Hey, Kevin Powell, who joined us on one of our CSS panels.

• 50:27Wes Bos?

  All right, that's it for today. That is a State of Devs 2025. Kind of fun to go through that and see how everything, what people answer. Make sure you throw that on your list of things to answer because we always like getting the most possible people to answer these and to see the results.

• 50:43Scott Tolinski?

  And we also like it when it says syntax is their favorite podcast by a massive percentage.

• 50:47Wes Bos?

  Yes, that one wasn't in here, but for State of JS, we gotta get those numbers up or keep us at the top at least. Anything else to add? Should we wrap it up?

• 50:57Scott Tolinski?

  Let's wrap it up. I'm gonna go eat some of my probiotic strawberry yogis. If you all have these at Costco.

• 51:06Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 51:07Scott Tolinski?

  Man, I'll just devour these. These are great for the airplane. They're perfect airplane snack. I'm just gonna tear back a couple of them. This podcast is sponsored by Costco Yogis from Nature's Garden. Snacks with a purpose. No, fantastic. I'm gonna go eat some of them.

• 51:25Wes Bos?

  Cool. All right. Thanks so much for tuning in and we will catch you later. Pooch.