1025: The Open Web's second chance (w/ Dan Abramov)

Dan Abramov joins Scott and Wes to explain AT Protocol, the open standard quietly rebuilding the social web. They get into how it actually works, why it’s way bigger than just Bluesky, and why Dan calls it one of the most interesting ideas on the internet right now. Show Notes 00:00 Intro 00:45 Welcome to Syntax! 01:46 Introduction of Dan Abramov 02:55 Understanding AT Protocol and Its Importance 06:41 The Relationship Between AT Protocol and Bluesky 08:22 Identity and Hosting in AT Protocol 11:29 Brought to you by Sentry 11:54 Use Cases for AT Protocol 13:08 How Content is Managed in AT Protocol 19:12 Public Data and Future Extensions of AT Protocol pds.ls 20:33 Schema Flexibility in AT Protocol Standard.site 25:28 Exploring AT Protocol Patterns UFOs 28:27 Media and Data Integration Challenges Stream.place 31:15 User Experience and Accessibility in AT Protocols 32:13 AI Intersections with AT Protocol 36:54 Comparing Protocols: Bluesky vs. Mastodon 41:43 Decentralization and Crypto Connections 44:59 Addressing Abuse and Spam in Protocols 48:24 Community Trust and Content Quality 51:20 Innovations and Future of AT Protocol 55:55 Sick Picks + Shameless Plugs Sick Picks Scott: Wes: Dan: Solo Monk Shameless Plugs Scott: Wes: Dan: Next.js 16.3: Instant Navigations Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Like in terms of apps, you know, from users' perspective, it's it works exactly as today's web. You know, you could imagine something like Reddit on a proto or something like Stack Overflow or something like GitHub. There is a project called Tangled. You could imagine something like Last FM, but really any kind of social thing where you create something, right? Like you, you create content in some formats, but the difference is that it lives in your folder, right? Like it's like everybody gets a folder and your stuff just goes into that folder. And then apps kind of sync it. So apps kind of become consumers and the source of truth is actually in your folder.

• 0:45Wes Bos?

  Welcome to Syntax. Today we have Dan Abramov on and you probably know Dan Abramov from his work on React. His, he worked at Blue Sky for a while. He's still doing quite a bit of React stuff. It's interesting. But we have him on today to talk about App Protocol or App Proto. You may have heard of App Proto as like the protocol that is behind Blue Sky. And we did an episode on it probably two years ago, when like maybe even three years ago, when like that, that first Blue Sky sort of hump came out. And it was, it's a really interesting protocol and it can be used for so much more stuff. And I feel like it's kind of underrated. I know Dan feels like it's kind of underrated and really interesting.

• 1:30Wes Bos?

  So we're going to talk about the technical bits behind all of it, what you can use it for. And he even said it's maybe Web 2.1 or Web 3, but the good one. Welcome, Dan. Thanks for coming on.

• 1:45Speaker 00

  Hey, thank you for inviting me.

• 1:47Wes Bos?

  Yeah, give us the, the scoop of who you are and what you do. I know, I know people probably know you, but just in case people aren't familiar.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  I don't think people, I don't think people know me anymore.

• 1:58Wes Bos?

  No.

• 1:59Speaker 00

  I've been kind of out of the loop. Yeah. But yeah, I've been, I guess I was involved with React for a bunch of years. I used to work on the React team at Facebook slash Meta. And yeah, then later, and I did some other open source stuff like React app and Redux.

• 2:20Wes Bos?

  Redux, yeah.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then I worked at Blue Sky for a couple of years. And then we just kind of had a sabbatical and now I'm starting at, at Versale on the NextJS team.

• 2:35Wes Bos?

  Wow. So when did the Versale transition happen?

• 2:38Speaker 00

  Just literally a couple of weeks ago.

• 2:41Wes Bos?

  That's cool. Ken, before we get into that protocol, can we ask you what you're working on there? Cause I'm sure people are dying to know.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  Well, I, I'm on the NextJS team. So just making it better.

• 2:52Wes Bos?

  Cranking on that right on. All right. So App Protocol, what is it? And why should we care about why this is so interesting?

• 3:01Speaker 00

  I don't know. There's so much pressure in this question. Like I'm like, I don't know if I can condense it. Like to me, I think it, it fixes a lot of stuff, like, you know, like, you know, like in The Matrix, in the movie, like there's this question, like, have you ever felt that like something is wrong with the world?

• 3:21Speaker 00

  And it's kind of like this, but for the internet, right? Like internet, especially like if you grew up with the internet, I think you kind of maybe remember it as this, maybe more lighthearted thing where, you know, like you, you like create a website, you like post something to it. Like you can link to each other. It's very permissionless. It's very much kind of like, there's a spirit of like open, you know, openness and no like world gardens. And then with time, in a sense, it's gotten more social, right? Like social networks and so on. So like we've gotten like shared spaces. But then these shared spaces, they feel like internet inside of internet, like, you know, different world gardens,

• 4:02Speaker 00

  like Facebook or Twitter, where we're going to put our stuff there, you know, like I, I put like my answers on Stack Overflow or my issues on GitHub or like my, like posts on Reddit or somewhere else. But then with time, these platforms, they kind of, you know, they fatten up with like everyone's content. And then they start doing, you know, they're like shutting down alternative clients, start showing like ads everywhere, trying to milk, you know, everything that, and like, we can't really like walk away from them because then we're going to erase everything that we created there. So in a sense, it's kind of like we put our stuff into somebody else's box. And then this box is just, you know, it's not on the open web anymore.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  It's kind of, there's like a ghost of it on the open web, you know, like the, the projections, like the HTML that you can hit through the servers. But like in a sense, it's like, it's, it's locked somewhere, somewhere else. And the big thing about it, Prado is, is kind of like a data layer for the web is how I like to think about it. So it's kind of like, what if that JSON that we usually put into like other products into their boxes? What if that JSON just, you know, hung on the web, like the JSON was part of the web? Kind of like in the personal sites era, but you know, you still can use apps, of course. So like apps are kind of the consumption and production model.

• 5:29Speaker 00

  But it lives sort of like in everybody's, like it's, it's like if everybody had a Dropbox folder that all apps can kind of interact with. And then you can always leave an app, but your stuff is still going to be in that folder. And so other apps can kind of, you know, present it differently or even like write to it differently. And different apps can see each other's content and kind of interoperate. So it's, yeah, I think of it as like people centric kind of part of the web that, that is missing to, you know, that is necessary to fix these like network effects where we get locked into platforms.

• 6:07Wes Bos?

  Man, I, I wish, like, people always say the internet is forever. And like anything you put on the internet will, will always be around and like, show me my MySpace photos. Or like, show me, like, there's so much of the internet that simply just goes away because something gets shut down and you no longer have, have access to it, right? Like my photo bucket got deleted a while ago. Cause they want, they're trying to like squeeze you to pay for my pictures of my bike from 20 years ago. No, I'm not doing that, you know? Find and you can just delete, delete all that data.

• 6:42Wes Bos?

  So App Proto is like, people are always, I think they kind of coincide it with Blue Sky. And I'd say like, oh, that's just what Blue Sky runs on. But, but the whole idea with it is that you will be able to host your App Proto wherever you want. You could self-host it or you could use like an, some other service like Blue Sky would be one of them. And then other applications would then consume each of them. Is, is that a fair way to put it?

• 7:16Speaker 00

  You could say this, but I think like the relationship between Blue Sky and the protocol is kind of interesting because yeah, like people think it's, it's a Blue Sky thing and you know, Blue Sky is this, you know, they think it's, it's like left to Twitter or whatever, right?

• 7:29Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  But it's really like, Blue Sky is a proof of concept of, that shows like you can build an app on the protocol. So the protocol itself, it has no relation to social media, right? It, it's not a microblogging protocol. It is literally a JSON, like a JSON layer for the web, like JSON storage layer that is attached to every user. So it's identity for the web and JSON storage for the web. It's how I think about it. And then Blue Sky app is like a proof of concept that you can build an app using this architecture. And it, you know, it, it works.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  And in terms of like hosting, I think the tricky thing there is really, like the way I would, again, the way I would describe it, Prado is that,

• 8:22Speaker 00

  maybe I just start by describing it first and then come back to the question. Because I think that, that actually clarifies it a little bit.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  So you know, like you have a Google account, right? Like you, maybe you have like a lot of sites that you log into, but you only have like maybe several Google accounts, right? Because maybe you have like separate identities for like work stuff and personal stuff. Or maybe like even a couple of different identities for personal stuff. But really you don't want to have like 400, like password pairs and so on. Like it makes sense to manage them from kind of a single identity piece. And a lot of us use Google for that. And so with Prado, kind of, you know, the first thing that it introduces is it really upstreams that concept into web itself.

• 9:11Speaker 00

  So the idea is that identity should actually be a legible concept in the web. So you should have a web account. And you know, you don't have to be logged in all the time, of course, or you can have multiple. But ideally we upstream this so that you don't depend on Google. And so, you know, it could be hosted by Google, but you should be able to switch it to another provider or to host it yourself on your own server. But basically like the, the thing that you log into apps with, that should be something that, you know, that is like under your control and that is a web standard. So this is kind of the first idea.

• 9:49Wes Bos?

  Is that like the idea of like owning your own domain? Or is it, does it go even further than that?

• 9:55Speaker 00

  It goes further than that. So at Prado uses domains as handles. So this is a part of this. Your identity has a handle. But it's not tied to a domain because you want to change handles over time. Like that's pretty common, right? Like people want to be able to change their, uh, oh, like you could lose the domain, right? Like you don't want to lose your identity. So it's like a layer above domains. There is like a identifier that's associated with you. And then there's like a JSON document that says three things. One is like what your current username is, which is, you know, a domain, but it can change over time. Kind of like your passport. So like it says who you are, like what's your name?

• 10:39Speaker 00

  You know, but what is, what is your handle? The second thing it says is where is your data stored? So what is your current hosting? And that is the novel concept, right? Like in today's web, we don't really have a concept of per user hosting, right? So like I only have a hosting if I host a website. Whereas here it's again, kind of more like Google account or Google Drive. It's like everybody who gets, you know, a web account has some hosting. And it could be provided by like a big company, but it could switch it over time to, you know, run into yourself or with a community and so on. It's just like a web standard. So everybody gets a hosting where some JSON can be stored. Uh, and the third thing is just your public key so that the things that you do can be verified.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  And so this is your identity in a proto is these three things.

• 11:27Wes Bos?

  Okay, okay.

• 11:29Scott Tolinski?

  And if you want to see all of the errors in your application, you'll want to check out Sentry at sentry.io/syntax. You don't want a production application out there that, well, you have no visibility into in case something is blowing up and you might not even know it. So head on over to sentry.io/syntax. Again, we've been using this tool for a long time and it totally rules. All right, Wes.

• 11:54Wes Bos?

  And like, obviously microblogging is, is one use case. But like, what else could you use it for? Like literally any piece of content that you put on could, could be done with at proto?

• 12:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So, um, you can kind of imagine, like in terms of apps, you know, from users perspective, it's, it works exactly as today's web, right? So, uh, you know, you could imagine something like Reddit on at Prado or something like Stack Overflow or something like GitHub. There is a project called Tangled, uh, that is, uh, kind of like GitHub on at Prado. You could imagine something like LastFM, um, where, you know, you send like your music stats and then it displays like aggregation. But really any kind of social thing where you create something, right? Like you, you create content in some formats and that.

• 12:50Speaker 00

  But the difference is that it lives in your folder, right? Like it's like, everybody gets a folder and your stuff just goes into that folder. And then apps kind of sync it. So apps kind of become consumers and the source of truth is actually in your folder.

• 13:08Wes Bos?

  Okay, okay. So if I wanted to build Dan Itter, which is a new social network, and I want to own my, my own, um, I want to own all of my content. You would be creating an app and then is the idea that it, it goes off and it just consumes them all? Or I sign in with my app proto to your, to your new application? And then all of a sudden I'll be able to, to create content on there?

• 13:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it works like normal app. So just like you can sign in with like with the Google account. You can sign in with a product account and, or like, I, I, you know, it's product is like a technical term. But the, the network is, uh, is called the atmosphere. Kind of like blogosphere, but atmosphere because at, right? At atmosphere. And it's kind of like, you know, it's like this cloud where that is shared between all apps.

• 14:08Scott Tolinski?

  So how does something get onto that stream? How does something get onto that protocol?

• 14:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the, the key separation is really between hosting and apps, right? So apps are these like user facing thing. So this, this doesn't change. You just, you know, you just use an app, use the Blue Sky app or, uh, you know, Tangled or like for Git, you know, for Git repos or there's like a bunch of blogging, like macro blogging apps like Leaflet, Offprint, uh, Pocket. So these are all, you know, they work like normal sites. You just log into them. You have an account, you can like write something and publish. But these apps, like the way they work is they're kind of like CMSs in a sense. Because when you write something on Leaflet, it actually creates a file in your folder on your hosting.

• 14:59Speaker 00

  So it knows where your accounts, you know, folder is, and it just puts some JSON there. And it's the same, like if I follow you on Blue Sky, I'm actually creating a JSON, like the app will create a JSON file in the Blue Sky follows subfolder of my folder on my hosting. So like every, every action you do, you know, when I, when you like, you like my post, you're actually creating a JSON file in your folder under Blue Sky likes that, uh, has a link to a post in my Blue Sky posts folder in my repo. It's kind of like a web of JSON with links.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  And so this is, this is like what happens on the hosting layer is it's like the source of truth for like everybody's stuff that we created that is like available publicly, you know, with no permission. It's just, it's just like, uh, you can just, you can just like grab it as, as JSON and explore it. And then, uh, all apps listen to events from all hosts. So this is how you actually update your database, right? Because like apps, you know, you don't want to go to a thousand hostings to like calculate the number of likes. Like that would be stupid and, and it would work, right? It's too slow. So what happens is that actually all events are being streamed into all apps, like through Web Socket. And on your Web Socket listener in the app, it just puts it into your database.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  So you just filter out, you know, stuff that is the data that is relevant to your app. You know, like the Blue Sky server listens to Blue Sky events about Blue Sky records. And like Tangled server listens to events about Tangled records. And some of them may actually like, you know, they may also care about something else, right? Like Tangled could this decided to listen to Blue Sky follows and put the Blue Sky social graph into its own database and then show me what my, you know, friends are pushing to, to Tangled. So it's kind of like they, they all can see each other's.

• 17:06Wes Bos?

  And it's at that app level where you would implement like an algorithm or spam protection or, or any of that stuff that, that people would like. Cause I think people coincide like at protocol with the people that are like, remember the good old RSS days where you just had a list in chronological order? You know, you see that on Instagram as well. People are like, just go back to photos and show me the people who I follow. And people say that, but I, I think that what the data shows of people actually doing, you probably know, you worked for Facebook. People like to consume the algorithm a bit more. That's why every single app now has a, a for you page.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And in that sense, I think like, I really like RSS as an analogy because, uh, you know, there's, like in a sense, like RSS gives a sense of ownership over content, right? Like I publish, like the source of truth is really like on my site or in my, like in a product, you don't have to have a site, like the hosting is kind of like a behind the scenes. Like it's kind of more like Dropbox per user.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  But it's really, you know, like it's, it's the source of truth for my stuff is just this JSON that lives somewhere, like wherever my hosting is. And then apps are downstream from that. And in that sense, RSS and Google Reader, right? So like sources of truth is like, like RSS, it's like hosting. But then there are apps like Google Reader that can aggregate it into their own databases, do like algorithms, do recommendations, do global search and so on. And so in that sense, like at Prado app is really like a normal app. The only difference is that the database is not the source of truth. It's like, it's where stuff gets synced. So it's really like between the database and the, you know, the client, it's a normal, uh, it's a normal web app.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  But the database itself is actually where the data is flowing from the open web. Kind of like, you know, the Google Reader backend actually subscribes to all RSS feeds and they just, you know, they, they used to go there as, as like a stream.

• 19:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, so that tracks those every, in that same regard is everything on app protocol, public?

• 19:18Speaker 00

  Right now, yes. So it's, it's currently focused on public data consumption, so and aggregation. So everything that you put there is public. There's actually like a really nice tool called PDS dot LS, Personal Data Server, uh, PDS, and then dot LS, like Unix LS, you know, list files. And you can go to that tool and you can input any handle and you can literally see, you know, kind of like index of a server, like you can see all the folders. So you can see what's in your hosting for your user, like your kind of JSON records. So that is all public for everyone. Uh, they're working to like extend the protocol for um, kind of protected or like closed.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  Uh, you know, like closed, uh, like not closed accounts exactly, but kind of like.

• 20:09Scott Tolinski?

  You think like DMs or something, right?

• 20:11Speaker 00

  Not exactly like DMs, DMs is like E2E is the best thing for that. So which is like a completely different beast, but you know, there are already good protocols for that. But they're working on like extension of protocol for things like closed groups. Or you know, forums that are closed and so on, but it's, it's like a separate thing that is still being worked on. And so it's like, it's not out yet.

• 20:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah, uh, let's talk about that JSON a little bit more because like the like tech guy in me wants to be like, yes, we have a standard and it is the same and you can, everybody publishes on this beautiful standard and it works. And, and then you look back at, at the past, I'm thinking about like um, Jabber or XMPP. This used to be a standard way to chat and you could have different servers and you could chat with everybody and everybody had their own IM apps. And you could chat because it all worked on the Jabber protocol. Um, and then very slowly they all got rid of that because they wanted to do like reactions and they wanted to do images and they wanted to do inline videos. They wanted to have groups and filtering and all of this stuff.

• 21:15Wes Bos?

  And our, our podcast as well, like most people listen to the podcast now on Spotify. And it's in the Spotify, they give you an RSS feed, but it's not done via RSS because they wanted to integrate video into it and the, the RSS spec didn't, didn't support that for the, for the longest time. And it just seems like every single time we have one of these standards, we eventually just drift away from it because you want to do things that is past that. So the, is there some sort of schema that can help morph what the actual data looks like?

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the product itself, it's app agnostic. So it doesn't specify, you know, it doesn't try to specify, what I think is like a mistake. A lot of these things do is like try to specify what a post is or like what a comment is. And so like it probably doesn't try to do any of that. It gives you like a language for schema definitions. So instead of specifying like, you know, trying to get everyone to agree like how many characters there should be in a post. Uh, instead it lets every app developer define their own types. Uh, so you can say like, you know, my blue sky, like blue sky says like a post

• 22:28Speaker 00

  is an object with like a text field that's at most 300 Unicode like segments or whatever. And like, uh, you know, like a language field and created that date time field. And it's kind of like TypeScript definitions. Uh, they're written in JSON, so it's, it's not exactly TypeScript. But there's like, you know, there's tools for, like LLMs are actually really good at writing this JSON now. It's called Lexicon, like this, this format. Uh, but there's Lexicon definitions, there's like tooling that code gens uh, TypeScript types plus uh, parsing utilities. So for any format that you define, you get like a fully typed, you know, blue sky post

• 23:12Speaker 00

  or tangled repo or like leaflet blog or whatever, you know, object that, that, that is like fully typed and can parse that JSON. Um, yeah, and so, and all the like in the users folders or repositories, as they're technically called, all data is broken down into folders that are again, like per type. So each application can define their own types. And then uh, that means that, you know, like blue sky post can be different from some other app post and you know, they, they can just keep using completely different data formats, kind of like file formats, right? And extensions, like you can just define your own for your app.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  But it's also interesting, like some apps decide actually to standardize on the same one. So there's like an example where multiple blogging apps in the atmosphere decided that they want to keep uh, their social graph unified. So that they're, you know, they have like a reader, each of them has like a reader page, kind of like Google reader. And they were like, it would be cool if you could follow a blog from the other app, right? That, but it still shows up for you in the reader. Uh, and so they kind of standardized on, okay, let's use the same lexicon for uh, the publication itself. So that we can have like a brand color, for example, uh, like a theme. They are the publication name, the author and so on.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  And let's also standardize for subscriptions. So how you follow each other is the same data format and posts. Or like, you know, declarations, like here's, here's a post. Um, and so this is like now they all kind of can show, you know, can show or like link to posts from each other, like aggregate posts from each other. And they can actually, even if you don't use any of those blogging platforms, uh, you can like use tools that integrate with your SSG or whatever you use for your blog. And also publish records in that format. And then they will, they will also show up in these apps, which is kind of cool. Like it's, it's kind of like a standard, but it's grassroots. It's just like three developers came together to like unify their data model.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  And then like other apps are starting to use that.

• 25:27Scott Tolinski?

  And where do people find out about those particular patterns showing up? Is it, is it all buried away in Discord chats and uh, reposts somewhere is there? Cause I, I mean, on the at protocol, at proto.com, there's a lot of stuff, but but where, where are, where are people finding these standards to um, or I guess shared standards, I suppose?

• 25:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this thing that called lexicons, uh, I mean, a lot of it is just on Blue Sky, there's a pretty active at Prado community, as you might have guessed. So if you go on Blue Sky, search for at Prado, like a few posts. And if you, if you use, there's a very good feed called for you. So you can, it's, it's actually better than the built in uh, feed called discover this like on Blue Sky. So if you, if you set up this uh, feed called for you, it's super responsive to likes. So if you like, if you post about it, Prado, you start getting, you know, a lot of community discussions from like people who are active in the community.

• 26:32Speaker 00

  Uh, but there's also like, there's actually a site called UFOs. Uh, you know, like unknown, unknown flying objects. Uh, if you Google uh, UFO lexicons, you will find that site. And it has like a graph because it listens to all events on the network. So it shows uh, new lexicons that are trending. Because it watches all the record creations. So you can see, oh, you know, like, like currently, like what's hot? There's any sort of progress. So this is like a, an active lexicon today.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  And any sort of is like a blue sky client with its own, some kind of like gamified, uh, like, like, you know, I'm, I'm not actually sure what the feature is. But essentially it means that like, there's been a lot of record creations for this data type this week or like today.

• 27:27Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 27:28Speaker 00

  So that's another way you can find out that like something's happening.

• 27:32Wes Bos?

  Okay, so like the, the top things that are happening right now in the entire graph of app protocol is a blue sky like, number one, right? Second one, a standard document, third, certified profile. Um, Pusmo streak, study task, teal play, flashes post. That's kind of interesting. You can see what, everything that's going on, but these are all just made up, right? Like Blue Sky had to make up the, the like.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can, you can make a West boss.

• 28:01Wes Bos?

  Explosion.

• 28:02Speaker 00

  Episode. Yeah, whatever.

• 28:05Scott Tolinski?

  I, I think like people would often get the wrong idea about Blue Sky because like you said, they, they have these assumptions about it. But like the fact that you can just kind of create your own algo, you know, or subscribe to a better for you is, that's such a killer feature of having something like this, a protocol like this.

• 28:27Wes Bos?

  Um, what about like, like media or data or things that need to be attached to it, right? Like obviously we can do likes and we can post like a blog post or whatever there as text. But like, like one of my biggest beefs with Blue Sky is that there's a 100 meg upload limit to my video. Would I just be able to like host my own video somewhere and then bypass that 100 meg limit? Um, or like how, how do, how does media photos, videos get attached to these documents?

• 28:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, like one thing about it, Prado is that it's, you can take as much of it as you want or as little as you want, right? Like nobody forbids you from, you know, you could use it just as identity layer. But like all the actual stuff lives in your database. And so this is kind of like, okay, this, you know, this doesn't, this, this isn't like in the spirit of like full of Prado, but it, you know, it's like a step. And there are things that don't like, like protected data that like, aren't even a part of the protocol yet. So like you would have to store it separately, like in your database or whatever. And so this is kind of similar. So there's, there's a built in thing in the Prado for media uh, with it, which is uh, blogs.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  So in your repository or like alongside with your repository on your hosting, you can store these like binary things, right? Like, like, like images or videos and so on. And the um, the records, your JSON can reference them by the hash.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  And so in that sense, they're like at Prado native, right? But again, it's it depends on your hosting. So like your host might not be happy with like storing gigabytes just for your personal, because it's much bigger than JSON, right?

• 30:17Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  So I think this depends like one way is like maybe some hosts would allow, you know, specifically like video oriented things like would allow larger storage. Maybe it's like a paid thing, but I, you know, I don't know the business models of like storing videos. So I can't say how this usually works. Another option is you just like, I think you just store it somewhere separately. And then your record is just, you know, it has like HTTP link or some kind of ID. And like, maybe that is like not on the protocol, or maybe there's some extension of the product or some other thing that is, uh, so there's, there's a project called Streamplace that is like at Prado Twitch. And I think they've been, they've added support for votes. So I think they've been thinking about it.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  I just, I just don't know what's the latest on this, but, uh, the author of Streamplace definitely like wrote something like on their profile about it.

• 31:12Wes Bos?

  That's interesting. It, I'm, I'm looking at all of this stuff and I, I think it's always a great idea. And we always, on this podcast, we always come back to like, what about like regular people? You know, cause like I, you look at that video or like, I don't think regular people are gonna pay to host their video, right? You just on Facebook or Twitter or whatever, you just upload it for free.

• 31:31Speaker 00

  To be clear, I'm, I'm not saying that at Prado somehow increases the costs, right? It's the same, like I'm, I'm just saying, if you want to host a lot of people's videos, whether you use a product or not, you better figure out how you're gonna pay for it.

• 31:45Wes Bos?

  It's gonna be expensive. Yeah.

• 31:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah, it does. It's so fun because it feels like this is such an old web kind of idea, but with exceedingly modern tech and like a modern viewpoint on it. So in that regard, like it does, you need to go back to the RSS conversation. It does give me those same vibes and feelings. And it feels like more people who embraced things like RSS should be embracing at Prado.

• 32:13Wes Bos?

  Do you have any opinions on if this is like how this interacts with AI or how it intersects with AI? Like, is this good for this type of thing?

• 32:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's, uh, like, I think it's, it's, it's works great with AI. But for, I don't know if like, do this guy users are super happy about it? Cause the, you know, there's a lot of like anti AI people there. But I think it's, uh, it's kind of like an application web without the need for APIs. So, you know, if you're building like, like a GitHub or, you know, you're like provide this like REST API, maybe like, you know, if like, maybe it doesn't have all the features or like then you shut it down. Or like, you know, developers at Twitter, like, I don't know.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  It's like, when I look at this, there was like an announcement that Twitter API is now like cheaper. And I'm like, why do you guys agree for pay for, you know? It's, it's so ridiculous that we've gotten to the point that like, like we're hostages on the, you know? It's, it's, it's so embarrassing.

• 33:20Wes Bos?

  I'm dying here because we had, we literally had a call a couple of weeks ago where we're talking about building something to like track stats. And we're like, yeah, the Twitter might be a little expensive. It might be a little expensive to get data about our own posts.

• 33:34Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 33:34Wes Bos?

  And like, why is this a conversation we're even having?

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So, so in that sense, uh, you know, the, like with the product, like the protocol is the API. So if you want to get some data from, you know, if you want to get my like Blue Sky data, you don't ask the Blues, sure, you could go to the Blue Sky API server. But the point of a product is you don't need to do that. You can just go to my hosting and literally download my repo. And my repo is just, you know, like that's, that's, that's where my files are. And the thing is, um, like, if you want, you can download the entire network. It's gonna be terabytes, but you can like, there is, you know, there's a person who's

• 34:19Speaker 00

  working on a public archive, so you can quickly access the current version of like, you know, aggregated from like all hostings. Uh, it's called Hubble. That's, that's like this, like read only archive, uh, that's like up to date. And, and you can query anyone's data without going to their hosting. Uh, so that thing is currently being like, you know, it's ingesting, like all the, you know, all the historical data, like everybody's, everybody's content. And it's like, it's gonna be like terabytes, but you can actually download the whole thing and like crunch the numbers on it or like analyze it like you can. It's, it's kind of like, you can download the entire internet as JSON, put it into your database

• 35:01Speaker 00

  and run queries across products, right? Like you can, you can make like a sequel query across multiple products and like do joins between them. Like it's, it's pretty crazy. So that's for AI, you know, like AI loves that stuff. Cause it's, there's a single way to query, like agents can, uh, you know, cross correlate things and so on.

• 35:23Wes Bos?

  And according to the protocol, I should be able to delete a piece of content in mine and that will send off a signal and it, you should ripple through and those things should be deleted as well.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it's kind of like at Prado is very scrape. It's kind of like scrape first philosophy where you can't really prevent people from scraping. So you might as well embrace it. And the Blue Sky app itself is a scraper, right? It scrapes the everyone's JSON. So everybody's like unequal, like NSA is probably also scraping, you know, the entire atmosphere. But that's kind of the deal is if you put something public, it's equally public to everyone. And nobody can like, you know, put, like, nobody else can like start charging rent for the stuff you declare this public, but everybody can scrape it immediately.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  And so for this reason, like if you delete something at your host, like the deletion is also broadcasted and the well behaved apps are supposed to, you know, also delete. Or like, you know, there's also like legal things, like you probably want to delete, you know? Or, you know, I think you, you're gonna like violate GDPR and so on.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  But of course, somebody who is, you know, who is not being nice, they can, you know, not honor this deletion, just like today, somebody who's not nice can like screenshot your Twitter pages, like whenever you post or whatever.

• 36:53Wes Bos?

  How is this different than like Mastodon where like, I'm, I'm not even sure I totally understand how Mastodon works, you know? I have my threads that are posted out to Mastodon instances, but some people reply and I'm, I'm not able to reply to them because I don't know where they are. But like this, this is not the same thing as Mastodon, right?

• 37:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's pretty different. So the way to think, the way I like to think about Mastodon is Mastodon is kind of like, it's kind of like WordPress. So it's, it's kind of like, you know, it's an, it's like a mini Twitter that you can install on your server. And that server is, that's the entire thing, right? Like it's, it's like a, like a hosted Twitter. So you just, you just spun out the copy of the app. And so you can imagine there's like, you know, like if you, if there is a copy running at like instance1.com, you sign up there, your account is there. Like that is, that is the Twitter you signed up for, right?

• 37:55Speaker 00

  And then like, if there's another instance, it's completely independent hosting, completely independent app. And like, if, if your friend makes an account there, it's, it's like a different service. Like they have nothing to do with each other. It's just somebody else's app who is like administered by whoever is running it. And then the problem is like, okay, first problem is like your, your identity is actually inside that app, right? Like if, if somebody removes that server from the internet, like your, you know, your account, like your identity was there. So it's, it's kind of, uh, like, it's not really like a network. Like I think of it as similar as to, um,

• 38:40Speaker 00

  Kind of like kingdoms in like ancient China or like, you know, like fiefdoms, where like you belong to this clan or whatever, like there is, you know, there is like part of the map that is, that is like your instance. And then maybe if your friend lives somewhere else, like these instances have to talk to each other, right? Because if I follow you, but you're in another instance, what happens is this, these like copies of Twitter start sending like emails to each other in a sense, right? Like they, like Activity Pub is kind of like, like a mailbox abstraction where you like these instances start messaging each other and saying, actually like Wes has posted and like this instance was interested in, you know, in what, somebody here follows him.

• 39:25Speaker 00

  So I'm gonna send like really all Wes posts here. So you have this like N squared divided by two connections between instances where they like send stuff to each other that uh you may have missed, but it's very fragmented because like even if you try to like patch it with like loading stuff from other instances or like, you know, assembling like on, it's kind of, you know, it's, it's many apps that are disconnected that try to sync to each other via email is like my, my kind of mental model. Uh, and every, and you're tied to a specific one. And like, for example, if admins of one instance decide to have beef with admins of another instance, they may just stop sending messages to each other and then you're not

• 40:09Speaker 00

  gonna, not gonna get your friend's posts, right? Because like your friend is on another instance, which is super weird, right? Like it's

• 40:16Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I always found that that disconnect to be super odd, trying to like pick which instance I was going to join, where my account lives. It was like immediately like this is what's supposed to upser uh, upser Twitter, like this, this experience, like no one's gonna, no one's gonna latch on to this, where I, I think Blue Sky, people can be unaware of the protocol behind it and still get a Twitter like experience out of it, which is one of the, the pros of that design.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's like the, the paper that they published, you know, with the first version of the protocol is called usable decentralized social media. So that was very much a constraint that, you know, behind the scenes, you know, there's this like credible exit, there's this like app agnostic hosting that like can change at any time. But from the user perspective, you interact through apps and developers can build other apps, you know, that have kind of like projections of the entire internet, but filtered down to some specific type of content. Uh, but like from the user perspective, it feels like the same web, except that you have, you know, you can see stuff from other

• 41:31Speaker 00

  apps, like the boundaries between apps dissolve a little bit and like stuff from one app can appear in another app, if that makes sense to like developers of both.

• 41:41Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and I mean, the, anytime you hear the word decentralized or any of that, like you instantly go to crypto. I mean, are there lessons from crypto here? Is there any, any connection at all?

• 41:56Speaker 00

  Well, I like to think of it, Prado is like web three, the good parts, uh, but the good parts, uh, you know, not, not, not a lot. Uh, um, I think the, like the closer, like it's, you know, it's crypto in the sense of cryptography. So the lessons are, um,

• 42:17Speaker 00

  it's kind of like one failure, or like maybe not failure for SS, but if you want to scale a network that is, you know, like all these like hosts and the data flows to the apps, you want to have intermediate nodes, like you want to have this kind of retransmitters, like relays, uh, which makes it easier to like, as an app developer, like I just want to listen to one web socket that tells me about everything that's relevant to my app. So I can just feed it into my database. Like I want it to be simple. I don't want to think about crawling or subscribing or whatever. I like, I just want to listen to one web socket. So that is, you know, some, somebody can run a service like this. So

• 42:58Speaker 00

  like Blue Sky runs one, there's a bunch of independent ones. Uh, but how do you trust that it's not, you know, it's not lying about the content that's flowing through it? And so the solution is kind of the same as on Git, right? On Git, you can sign commits. So uh, the signature travels with the, like the, the data itself contains enough information that you can verify that it was actually signed by the person who's like public key, you know? So that is how like the, some lessons from crypt, like cryptography is really that the content, like the event stream is signed. But in that sense, it's closer in

• 43:38Speaker 00

  lineage to uh, maybe Git or, you know, like, uh, I don't know, BitTorrent or like some of those other things that are not about blockchain. And the only thing that is, because like in, I think like people try to build social stuff on blockchain, but it's super inefficient because there is a bottleneck of like every write is like an append to a single kind of shared queue.

• 44:07Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  But this, this is only, this only makes sense when you have a, when you have a requirement that, uh, well, first like everything is append only. So if you put some bad stuff there, like it's gonna be there forever. Another problem is that it's, um, well, it's very inefficient. And the, I think the big insight for, for a product developers was that actually you don't need global ordering on the event log. And if you drop the global ordering constraint, like everything is in a single queue, it actually becomes just the web. So the shape of a Prado is really like, is decentralized, but it's decentralized in the sense that the web is. Like when I use a browser, you don't really think about,

• 44:50Speaker 00

  oh, they're like, I'm accessing a decentralized network. You just click on links. So this is kind of similar, like in, in that shape.

• 44:58Wes Bos?

  It's a good way to put it. Does, does any of this stuff have anything built, like i- i- is it good or bad for abuse? Um, because like we've seen the bots on all of the social networks and even to use OpenAI, um, to like Kodak or whatever, you have to upload a photo of your license, um, you know? And like, I feel like there's more stuff going that way. Some will say because of, um, governments wanting to track you and, and some will say simply just because we cannot stop these bots anymore. And it's getting to a absolutely brutal, brutal point where everything is obnoxious. I just logged on to my Blue Sky right now and I can see seven or eight kind of obviously AI stuff. So is there anything

• 45:43Wes Bos?

  in this that will like help us be able to detect that type of thing? Cause I, I would think that it would be harder to detect spam and, and bots on these types of things when you don't have all of the clues of what browser did they use? How long did they hover over? You know, all of those little fingerprints that these social networks are using to try to detect if you are maliciously posting.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's an interesting question. I'm not sure about, you're right, like in terms of like the browser. I guess like at the app level, you, you still know that actually.

• 46:16Wes Bos?

  Oh yeah, where it's authored, I guess you do know. Yes. But theoretically, you could post from, you don't have to post from the app, do you? Could you just create the document in like a text file?

• 46:28Speaker 00

  But that's also quite a signal. Like, you know, it doesn't mean you're a bot, but it is, it is a signal that like you're not using the main app, right? Which is like, okay, like you're not doing that. Um, but I think, um, like in some ways, it's, it's like, it's, it's kind of, I think like there's maybe pros and cons because, uh, in some sense, you can pull analysis between apps where like you can look at the, okay, what is this like identity doing across different apps? And if, you know, there could be kind of community run or, you know, things that are kind of like, just like one, one cool

• 47:10Speaker 00

  thing about these like open social apps is that, uh, you're able to share infrastructure between them because everything flows in the same format. You can have, you know, shared moderation tooling, shared detection systems, shared caches is like whatever the happens, shared indexes and so on. So I think that is, that is like maybe the other side of this is that, uh, if, you know, if one app builds, uh, like some kind of, you know, detection thing for weird patterns of like data insert or like resources, other apps can agree to also like share that or, or use that. Uh, so maybe that is, that is maybe the fluid, the flip side of that.

• 47:52Wes Bos?

  It can, can work really well and it also can backfire. I run a Git repo called burner email addresses, which is just a list of domain names that are known, like throw away emails. And I use it to filter out like signups and whatnot. And a couple of times, somebody's legitimate domain name has made it onto this list and I've ruined a couple of people's afternoons. I'll tell you that, um, by their email sneaking onto these, you know, like some, it gets merged, they download the list and all of a sudden somebody can't sign up, like an entire school can't sign up for the service anymore. And I was like, I don't know, I should, I want to be in charge of this anymore. But also I, I do like there's something to say about like a whole community coming behind someone saying like, yes, this

• 48:37Wes Bos?

  domain name or this account is known for, for high quality posts and they are not. There's a lot of signals to say that they're good. I don't know what the answer is to any of this stuff.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  I think, I think that's actually like another thing that is being tried. I think like Tangled has a vouching system where you can vouch for another user, like as a protocol record. And then, you know, any app can also interpret that. So maybe we'll see more kind of vouching in, in user land and apps about like agreeing about the format, like the lexicon for those vouchers. So we'll, we'll see. I don't, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I think open just leaves more opportunities to collaborate than post.

• 49:18Wes Bos?

  The, even the, the follow lists on Blue Sky were huge for that. Just like this, here's a list of people that I follow and I trust these people and I just click follow the whole thing. Cause I, I trust the person, therefore I trust the people on this list.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. So we've heard a lot about the protocol, but like, let's talk about some of the work on the protocol. Like, what are some of the cooler things you've seen done?

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's, that's kind of what I wanted to talk about is, so because you can define your own formats for data, it actually leads to some interesting, like interesting things happening that like, don't really happen in, in like, closed ecosystems. So one example I mentioned before is, you know, there were three different blogging platforms on Asprado. One is called Leaflet, another Offprint, and another, what is it, Pocket. And so they kind of teamed up, you know, let's, let's use the same format and then each, you know, stuff from each app will appear in

• 50:23Speaker 00

  another app. And so this is called Standard Site. So they, they published it as a format, they called it Standard Site. And this, you know, this, this let like posts appear in different places. But then other developers started using this format as well. So there's like integrations for like your blog to appear in the atmosphere by, like, if you start on deploy publishing Standard Site records under your account, then any app that listens, you know, like these blogging apps will see your posts. But people also started building like more stuff around it. So somebody built an app called Standard Reader, which is an aggregator of all Standard Site records. And

• 51:06Speaker 00

  it kind of shows like, you know, what's, what's Standard Site articles are popular, like in your network, like if you log in, like which of them are being shared by your like Blue Sky follows, and so on. So it's kind of like, nobody had to coordinate, you know, like you can just like build an app and just existing data on the network. And then another cool thing was, Blue Sky added like a special embed card. If you share a post or like a link that has a Standard Site record associated with it, it's gonna get like a special visual treatment that uses your brand color of your publication. So it's kind of like a special embed.

• 51:50Scott Tolinski?

  That's cool.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  And again, like, I think that's, like, it's interesting here that Blue Sky app did not need to like, ask someone's permission to do this. It's just that this data already exists in the open web. So they just started ingesting it and using it in their app. And I think that, I think that's like one interesting example. Another example I like is, do you know Last FM?

• 52:14Scott Tolinski?

  Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I was on Last FM from like, day one, forever, ever ago.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  So there's, there's a like, Atprado version of that called Teal FM. Teal is in color. Except that the app doesn't actually exist yet. So it's like a few people's like hobby project. So they, you know, they, they're like, I think there's some private beta maybe. But the app itself is just like a landing page. However, they published their lexicon on GitHub. So there's a lexicon for TLFM play that just represents like one scrollable, right? Like one play of a track. Like has the artist name, the track name, and so on. And so people started building tools that, you know, sync your Spotify or Apple Music or whatever, and so, and write your TLFM play

• 53:05Speaker 00

  records to your repo. And as a result of that, the data for a lot of people is already there. Like, I'm posting TLFM records when I listen to on Spotify. And so people started building, like, there are third-party TLFM apps that show what everybody's, like, there's already like 6 million, I think, like, plays across like everybody. And they're showing like, which are like, popular artists, like, who's listening to what. But the TLFM doesn't even exist. So like, it's just, it's just kind of weird, right?

• 53:40Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Man, it's just, somebody created a schema standard, and people started pushing out data. And then like, where does that data, that data can be stored anywhere, right? Like, it can be hosted on your own server.

• 53:57Speaker 00

  So it's starting your hosting. Yeah. So like, for example, like, Atprado hosting, it's a bit weird, right? Like, when you sign up on Blue Sky, you kind of think of Blue Sky as one thing, but it's really two completely unrelated things. It's the Blue Sky app and the Blue Sky hosting. And it's just because they need to bootstrap this whole thing, right? Because you don't have, like, Atprado, nobody has Atprado accounts. So by default, when you sign up on Blue Sky, you get Blue Sky, like, use Blue Sky app, but your Atprado hosting is Blue Sky hosting initially. And, you know, as a user, you don't care about it. It's just like, behind the scenes, you get a folder. And Blue Sky is your host. But you can change that to some other host. So I changed

• 54:40Speaker 00

  it to Eurosky. It's, it's like a, you know, European-based hosting. Or I could host, you know, I could host it on Cloudflare by myself. Or like somewhere else. So it's, it's whatever, it's just whatever speaks the, the HTTP and WebSocket, like a protocol format. But the point is like, I still use the Blue Sky app. It's just my hosting, like, my JSON lives in a different place. But the Blue Sky app is my kind of entry point into, you know, the prism through which I look at everybody's JSON. But there are like, other apps that display content from, you know, Blue Sky, like, Blue Sky content and so on. So it's really kind of two separate things, like

• 55:21Speaker 00

  the hosting and the apps. And you can always change your hosting, and data from all apps lives in that folder. And you can put that folder like, somewhere else.

• 55:30Scott Tolinski?

  Cool. Yeah, that rules. Okay. I, I went from not knowing very much about this, if I'm being entirely honest. I thought it was just the protocol behind Blue Sky and other things to having 18 tabs open and ready to dive in a bit more. So thanks, Dan.

• 55:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. Thank you.

• 55:51Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. So now's the part of the show, if you don't have anything else where we can get into sick picks and shameless plugs. Dan, it's been way, way too long since we've wanted to have you on this show. So this is probably, if you, if you don't know, we do a sick pick and a shameless plug, where you can pick anything that's cool in your life, something that you're just really enjoying. Could be anything. Podcast, or physical objects, or anything that's giving you joy. And then, just a shameless plug. Plug whatever you want.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  Hmm. Yeah, I haven't prepared. I forgot that this is a thing. For sick picks, I'll choose, I've been, I've been listening to some jazz lately. And like, I used to think that I hate jazz. And I think, I think like, mostly I still hate it. Like, I don't like most of it. But I really got into Delonius Monk. And especially, especially like, his solo piano. Like, there's like, solo piano album. And Solo Monk, I think. But like, they're actually really good. Like, I'm, I'm really enjoying them. So that, that'll be my, what is it, sick pick, or?

• 57:04Wes Bos?

  Your sick pick, yeah. Check out your, his, his Teal FM. And

• 57:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:12Scott Tolinski?

  Get some Solo Monk on there, yeah.

• 57:15Wes Bos?

  Cool. And a plug, what would you like to plug to the audience?

• 57:18Speaker 00

  Like my own thing?

• 57:20Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Scott Tolinski?

  Anything you want. Yeah, something you're working on, something you want other people to check out.

• 57:25Speaker 00

  Well, I'm gonna, okay, so this is, this, I'm, I'm doing my job. But no, like, actually, we're gonna release Next 16.3 soon. I hope soon. But there's like, there's a preview for it. And it's actually like, you know, I, like, I like Next programming model. But like, I'm, I'm a very frustrated user of Next, because it's been like, you know, hellish slow, and kind of buggy in a lot of places and so on. And so the team is like, working super hard to fix it. But one thing, and, and there's, so there's a couple of things that like, I'm excited about this

• 58:04Speaker 00

  release. One is that the dev server is not as memory hungry anymore. And because they just added like, cache eviction to disk. So it's like, for some cases, like, 20GB goes down to like, 2GB. It's like 90% improvement, which is kind of wild for like, long dev sessions. The other thing that I'm excited about is a new feature called Instant Navigations. And that is, there's something like opt-in, but there's like a skill that helps you opt into it. But essentially, it lets you assert that it doesn't let, you know, you have to be intentional about anything

• 58:45Speaker 00

  that blocks the page from loading. And like, it's not instant. And so it kind of forces you to, like, if you, if you follow its suggestions and, you know, fix the code, or like, let your agent fix your code, then it guarantees that navigations between pages in a Next JS server app feel like a spa. So they're kind of instant, you know, client-side shells that feel immediate. There's like, a bunch of features, like, we're building around that. But, yeah.

• 59:15Scott Tolinski?

  Cool.

• 59:15Wes Bos?

  Does that, does that have to do with where you put your suspense boundaries? Or is it a bit more Next specific?

• 59:21Speaker 00

  Yes, it's essentially, it, it just forces you to kind of push things down enough to let it generate a reusable shell for the route. So that it can just, it's, it's kind of like in the spa, you know, the part of the route before you first use, load, whatever, right? It's like, this generic thing that doesn't know what it's loading yet. So that is what like, Next extracts automatically, as, as long as you push suspense a bit down, or you like, slap a use cache on the content, so it can kind of show it immediately and cache it on the client.

• 59:56Scott Tolinski?

  Beautiful.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  Or you can say that you're okay with blocking, and then, you know, it's, it's like a slow load, but you're intentional about it.

• 1:00:04Wes Bos?

  Yeah, in some cases, you would be okay with it. Man, I'm stoked that you are working on Next, because, yeah, I've got some qualms. I'm a big Next fan, but I've got qualms. And I'm stoked that you're gonna kick down the door and, I think, fix some of these things. If you ever want to come back and, and talk, react, and whatever, I'm sure people would enjoy that as well. Cool. Thanks so much for coming on. Appreciate your time. And we'll catch you later.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:00:29Scott Tolinski?

  Thanks, Dan.

• 1:00:30Wes Bos?

  Peace.