975: What’s Missing From the Web Platform?

Scott and Wes run through their wishlist for the web platform, digging into the UI primitives, DOM APIs, and browser features they wish existed (or didn’t suck). From better form controls and drag-and-drop to native reactivity, CSS ideas, and future-facing APIs, it’s a big-picture chat on what the web could be. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! Wes Tweet 00:39 Exploring What’s Missing from the Web Platform 02:26 Enhancing DOM Primitives for Better User Experience 03:59 Multi-select + Combobox. Open-UI 04:49 Date Picker. Thibault Denis Tweet 07:18 Tabs. 08:01 Image + File Upload. 09:08 Toggles. 10:23 Native Drag and Drop that doesn’t suck. 12:03 Syntax wishlist. 12:06 Type Annotations. 15:07 Pipe Operator. 16:33 APIs We Wish to See on the Web 18:31 Brought to you by Sentry.io 19:51 Identity. 21:33 getElementByText() 24:09 Native Reactive DOM. Templating in JavaScript. 24:48 Sync Protocol. 25:52 Virtualization that doesn’t suck. 27:40 Put, Patch, and Delete on forms. Ollie Williams Tweet SnorklTV Tweet 28:55 Text metrics: get bounding box of individual characters. 29:42 Lower Level Connections. 29:50 Bluetooth API. 30:47 Sockets. 31:29 NFC + RFID. 34:34 Things we want in CSS. 34:40 Specify transition speed. 35:24 CSS Strict Mode. 36:25 Safari moving to Chromium. 36:37 The Need for Diverse Browser Engines 37:48 AI Access. 44:49 Other APIs 46:59 Qwen TTS 48:07 Sick Picks + Shameless Plugs Sick Picks Scott: Monarch Wes: Slonik Headlamp Shameless Plugs Scott: Syntax on YouTube Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Wes Bos?

  Welcome to Syntax. Today, we're talking about what is missing from the web platform. The web platform, JavaScript, CSS, browsers, runtimes, syntax, APIs, all of that stuff. The last, I don't know, maybe two or three years, we've gotten this massive swath of APIs that if you walk up to most developers and say, "Hey, like, what do you need? What's missing?" A lot of people will go, "Hmm, like, man, things are actually in a pretty good shape, but there's still a handful of things that are missing from the web, from us being able to build the best apps possible." So what we're going to do is we asked on Twitter, me and Scott have a huge list ourselves,

• 0:43Wes Bos?

  a big wishlist, we're going to go through all of the different things that we wish we had, from like primitives in the UI, different types of syntax we'd like to see added to JavaScript, different APIs we'd like added, Bluetooth, serial, NFC, and then CSS browsers, as well as, of course, we'll talk about the AI access and what those APIs might even look like in the browser. My name is Wes Boss, I'm a developer from Canada. With me as always is Scott Tolinski. Scott's a little hurt today. Do you want to give us the lowdown?

• 1:14Scott Tolinski?

  I don't, you know, I'm always hurty. I feel like, I feel like every other episode we do, I got some, something going on.

• 1:20Wes Bos?

  Some ailment.

• 1:21Scott Tolinski?

  Some ailment, yeah. No, I had, I had an elective surgery done. I couldn't breathe. I had a deviated septum, so they had to go in and, I'll save any of the gory details. They opened things up and fixed all that stuff.

• 1:36Wes Bos?

  Sliced them right up.

• 1:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, so I can breathe. Like, I was snoring and stuff, and it's not like sleep apnea, it's just because I broke my nose or whatever happened. Recovery's not usually that bad. I was supposed to be good by like Saturday, Sunday, you know, after a surgery on Wednesday. And for the most part, my nose feels great, but I had some from the trachea they put in. My throat is all jacked, so I got, I got throat numbness going on, I'm on some drugs, but I feel, I feel ready to go. I can talk, yeah, let's go. I'm excited about this, actually, because I was looking over your episode notes and I had a couple- Wild ideas myself of things that are not likely, but um.

• 2:13Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 2:14Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I know I'm I'm I'm curious because the web does seem like there's just awesome stuff all the time these days. And I'm excited for what could be, you know?

• 2:25Wes Bos?

  Yeah. All right. So the first one we have here is better primitives in the DOM, right? So what that means is that like we have select, you've got like radio checkboxes, you've got a date picker, things like that, but typically nobody uses those primitives aside from maybe input type of text and input type of email. And and then past that, everybody's NPM installing something and and using a whole bunch of JavaScript. And that's because like the the primitives suck, like the input type of date sucks, right? That's not a good experience to be able to do it. You can't style it how you want. You can't have full control over it. So the the web platform knows about this and they've been working on it.

• 3:08Wes Bos?

  And the the first big one we've had in terms of a very good primitive is the customizable select. And what that allows you to do now is you can now create a dropdown with a select element, but you have full control over all of the CSS, what it looks like, all of that great stuff, without having to give up any of the downsides of like accessibility and keyboard control, things like that, as well as like you don't have to install a whole bunch of stuff, which is the customizable select is absolutely awesome.

• 3:38Scott Tolinski?

  Huge improvement.

• 3:39Wes Bos?

  Like it's this is almost like like moving into like like headless UI as well, meaning that like headless UI is the browser will bring the functionality or your JavaScript library brings the functionality and you bring the divs, you bring the CSS and you can sort of render it out and and add whatever divs or spans or anything you want inside of there. Now, that's great. And now they're working on like multi-select as well as combo box, you know, be able to like filter, find people, dropdown. And then a lot of people are saying like. What other inputs do we need? Like, date picker is the big one.

• 4:12Scott Tolinski?

  So they are working on combo box? I didn't catch that.

• 4:16Wes Bos?

  Yeah, combo boxes is being worked on right now, which is huge because you want to be able to like filter and select multiples, you know, and select the three tags from this list. You want to filter and select the items and have a list of the tags that you've selected.

• 4:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I'm always looking at open UI for ideas for a lot of these things because it's like a W3C community group where they're researching just UI elements and what could be. And it's a good place to list through the kind of things that we would need. But yeah, I think that the first one you have here is date picker. Yeah, we have a date picker. It's questionable. I don't, I use it when I'm lazy. I'll say that. I'll use the date picker when I'm lazy. But it ultimately isn't as functional or as useful as other, you know, JavaScript based date pickers. So to me, I think that there's just like a major opportunity there to improve that.

• 5:15Scott Tolinski?

  Make it styable too. Like, come on. All this stuff. I don't feel, I feel like nothing should be added that can't be styable.

• 5:23Wes Bos?

  No, I don't think anything will ever be added that can't be styled like any longer, right?

• 5:28Scott Tolinski?

  Really?

• 5:29Wes Bos?

  Yeah, those days, those days have passed. If you're, if you're making any new primitives to the browser, then you gotta be able to fully control it. You gotta be able to render out the different parts of it. You can't just like write video tag and then that's it, right? You should be able to have access to all of the, like a default UI. That's another, a lot of people are saying that as well. It's like have good default UI. That's nice. But also give us full control over these. So I don't think we'll ever see a date picker and I'll tell you why. Because a date picker is so complex, right? You have range inputs. You want it. Sometimes you want to be able to put things on the different days. Like maybe you want to put prices for like a flight or Airbnb.

• 6:12Wes Bos?

  You want to be able to not allow selecting of certain ones. It is just far too complex for that type of thing. So I don't think we'll ever see a date picker. And in that case, if you have a complex date picker, that's something that you probably should still reach for an external UI for.

• 6:30Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah, I think that probably tracks. It is one of those things that feels like you need more often than not. And then every single time you're you're doing it, and it's just, you know.

• 6:40Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 6:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:41Wes Bos?

  There's good ones out there. I think the idea with a lot of these primitives that we're getting, you know, like customizable select accordions, pop over, anchor. A lot of these primitives are not meant to be like, you'll just use this thing straight. It's like, here is a primitive which you can then customize yourself. Or like Shad C N is going to use these primitives in there. And that means they're going to need a lot less JavaScript in order to make it work. And you can simply just pop it in and you can, you could just slap a select in there. And then you can import some external CSS library and the thing will start looking pretty good.

• 7:18Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I have tabs on here, like, bro, tabs have been like the most common, one of the most common UI elements of all time. And how do we not have a tab HTML system? I mean, we have accordions, details and stuff like that. They could do anything with tabs. I feel like this is just long overdue personally.

• 7:41Wes Bos?

  Can't you do that with an accordion or like a like a details?

• 7:45Scott Tolinski?

  I mean, no, not not to the degree that you would want to. Like the thing is, is that you you'd want it to just function like tabs, like how they how they function.

• 7:54Wes Bos?

  And you don't have to hack it.

• 7:56Scott Tolinski?

  You don't have to hack it. And so for me, I feel like this is the obvious one, but.

• 8:01Wes Bos?

  Another one for me is like a file upload, at least being able to style it. And if it's like an image, you could preview it. Anytime you want to like preview an image that somebody has uploaded, you gotta, you gotta get the file reader API out. You gotta read that thing into like a binary blob. And then you gotta paint that thing. You either then convert that blob into like a URL, which you can then display as like an image, or you can paint that thing to a canvas. And then you can resize it based off of that. But so many times I've just wanted a simple file upload. And then I want like a like a half decent being able to style it.

• 8:38Scott Tolinski?

  The default styling for the. File upload is one of the worst things on the web.

• 8:44Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Scott Tolinski?

  I've made so many drop zone components for dropping files and stuff like that. And it's like,

• 8:51Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Scott Tolinski?

  I always hate having to like, uh, do that without an actual JavaScript based component. I actually do have something that is just a CSS version of that in my graffiti UI library. That is like a drop zone nicely styled, but it doesn't have the previews and stuff like that. So I could totally see one that I have here is toggles. Yeah, we have a checkbox and yes, Safari does have toggles. Just add it to Chrome, add it to Firefox, like, uh, do it already because the toggle is such a ubiquitous standard UI element at this point. The fact that Safari is the only one that has added it as an option to be default styled and stuff.

• 9:37Scott Tolinski?

  Just do it, make it styable toggles, come on.

• 9:40Wes Bos?

  Yeah, this is so key because like, like, what are you going to do otherwise? You're going to make it not accessible, right? You're going to put a whole bunch of divs over top of the thing. You're going to hide the actual checkbox and, um, you gotta spend a whole bunch of extra work trying to get that thing to be accessible. Or you're going to install some third party component.

• 9:59Scott Tolinski?

  Right.

• 9:59Wes Bos?

  Toggle, yeah, it's such a good primitive that we should, we, we need to have, right? We have progress, we have like the progress bar. That's, you're almost there, right?

• 10:09Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah, all of these ones. And again, like Safari did it. So, uh, it's not like nobody's doing it and it, yeah, that, that should be enough of a, a good start. I don't know, uh, not adding this just feels weird to me at this point.

• 10:22Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Scott Tolinski?

  I also have native drag and drop that doesn't suck. You know, the, the drag and drop just kind of aesthetic, like ghosts it out in the way that native drag and drop works. Like it's another one where it just feels half assed in terms of the implementation not matching how people actually want to use drag and drop in real life. So, you know, it's fine.

• 10:45Wes Bos?

  Never going to happen.

• 10:46Scott Tolinski?

  It's never going to happen.

• 10:47Wes Bos?

  If you take a look at Atlassian's pragmatic drag and drop, we had the developer on the show. That drag and drop is such a can of worms that I think they did the right thing in that they they gave us the the correct browser primitives for dragable droppable. They gave us the correct primitives for like drop zone where you're allowed to drop things. They gave us all of the JavaScript events for that type of thing. But there are so many things like what happens when you start dragging it? Does it leave the old thing behind?

• 11:16Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 11:16Wes Bos?

  And and then ghost it out? Or does it immediately like move up? Like if you're dragging an item from a list, should it immediately take it out of there? And what happens when you drop it? Does it make a copy of it? What? There's so much to it that I think that this is absolutely one of those things where you need to reach for a library. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

• 11:33Scott Tolinski?

  I feel like you're going to hear a fully version version of idealistic Scott talking in this episode. I I feel like there's a lot of people are going to be like, yeah, this doesn't work. This doesn't work. And I will admit to my ideas here, a lot of the ideas in here being just fully idealist, not thinking about edge cases, not thinking about reality. I'm fully living in my, I just want this mode in this episode. I'll say that.

• 12:03Wes Bos?

  In terms of syntax for the language, a lot of people said they want type annotations, which is they basically just want TypeScript in JavaScript. And there are kind of like two movements for that already, right? There is a proposal for something called types as comments, meaning that you would be able to put your your TypeScript code in the browser. But the browser would simply just ignore it, meaning that it would it would treat the syntax of like the added TypeScript syntax, it would just treat that as a comment, meaning it would then ignore it. So that's being worked on. Whether we'll ever get that or not remains to be seen, but it seems to be that the the browser will not care about that or no, will not use any of that that information.

• 12:49Wes Bos?

  What do you think? Should Should TypeScript be added to it? Like, it's in Node already, right? You can run .ts files in Node with no problem, install nothing, and it just works.

• 12:58Scott Tolinski?

  I feel like we are so far beyond the point of where TypeScript was a question mark. I have not written non TypeScript in just about, I don't know when the last time I wrote straight up JavaScript.

• 13:12Wes Bos?

  Probably like, what, seven, eight years?

• 13:13Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, it has been, it's been so long since I've made a .js file. It's, it's actually wild, because there was a point during this, I mean, this podcast has been running long enough that TypeScript was competing with, what was it, Flow and with Reason?

• 13:28Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Scott Tolinski?

  There, I mean, there was, there was no, like, guarantee that TypeScript is going to become the thing. But TypeScript is not just the thing. To me, TypeScript is JavaScript at this point. I don't, I don't see it any other way. And I would be shocked if people are out there writing JavaScript today, like, straight up shocked, especially because now it's so much easier to just run TypeScript, whether you have Bun or anything here.

• 13:49Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 13:49Scott Tolinski?

  So like, at this point, just do it. Yeah, it's gotta be it. Yeah.

• 13:55Wes Bos?

  This is one of those things where I, I don't mind them taking their time, because it's not that big of a pain in my butt to run TypeScript in the browser. The, the amount of times I have to like, oh, I can't copy paste this into my, like, terminal. Maybe that's the thing, is I just want Chrome Dev Tools to be able to strip it out for me when I sometimes paste TypeScript into that.

• 14:15Scott Tolinski?

  Sure.

• 14:15Wes Bos?

  There is a world where TypeScript is not it, and type JavaScript looks like something else. So, taking a look at that whole landscape, not necessarily like what it does, because this, this is simply just syntax, but looking at how, how, what are the downsides to, to TypeScript? And maybe we could make a, some improved syntax and allow that.

• 14:39Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Why are we thinking about downsides? Just do it.

• 14:43Wes Bos?

  No, that's the thing is that if you, everybody said that with jQuery as well, you know, just, just add jQuery to the browser. And they took their time and they figured out like, like what actually works for the long-term health of the web. And I think that is fine.

• 15:00Scott Tolinski?

  This is why you don't let me on any of these committees. I am, I'm way too YOLO it. I'm just like, yeah, I'm too far gone in that direction and everything.

• 15:08Wes Bos?

  Pipe operator is one that I would absolutely love to see. So in JavaScript, if you've got like, like, imagine you have like a whole bunch of promises that are chained, then, then, then, then, then, right? Like, that's not the pipe operator, but that allows you to read your code sort of like top to bottom or sink a weight, right? But sometimes you're, you're not dealing with, with code that looks like that. And you simply just want to take the output of something and then pipe that into something else. And, and right now, what you have to do is you have to wrap those functions. So you, you end up with this like sort of blooming onion of functions, where if you want to know what it does, you go to the middle and then you start like, like stepping it back until you, you reach the outsides. A pipe operator

• 15:51Wes Bos?

  would be so nice to be able to just like, run a function, take the output of that and immediately pipe that into the next function. And it's been a proposal for many, many years. I'm not sure we'll ever get it, but I would love it.

• 16:02Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, it is one of those ones that's just been hanging around. It does feel like some of these things just sit in limbo forever. And I, I mean, again, I, the entire like process of that needs to take time for the reasons we've already outlined. So yeah, it's, I, it's something I would absolutely take.

• 16:20Wes Bos?

  It's stage two and was last updated three years ago.

• 16:24Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, cool.

• 16:25Wes Bos?

  So.

• 16:26Scott Tolinski?

  Wow.

• 16:27Wes Bos?

  Not looking great.

• 16:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Wes Bos?

  Not looking great.

• 16:30Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, just in limbo. Yeah.

• 16:32Wes Bos?

  Next one is APIs. These are APIs that we want to be added to the web platform. One API, this is not something I want, but something that was really cool is, I just started up Riverside here with, with Scott and he's like, yeah, your, your video is a little choppy. And then Riverside popped up this little thing that says, hey, plug your computer in. And you'll get better, you'll get better perf, right? Like browsers will sometimes throttle things in the browsers if you're on battery. And as soon as I plugged it in to power, that little thing went away. And that's the navigator.getBattery API. And that's beautiful, beautiful use case of that API. And those are the types of things where you, we used to complain that like native had a lot of these APIs.

• 17:16Wes Bos?

  And now that's just in a website that works great.

• 17:19Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Wes Bos?

  Things we actually want, please, oh, please, oh, please, give me an API for doing cookie banners. I am so sick of the web. You visit any website, you're blasted with a cookie banner and like they never remember what you want, you know? Like accept all cookies or whatever. And you gotta sit there and think about, what do I want? I don't care. Get it out of my face. I know that there's browser like extensions, you can like, you can ignore them and all that.

• 17:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Wes Bos?

  We need a set of APIs for opting in to cookies, opting consent integration, what people have consented to, saving that in the actual browser. We need those APIs like yesterday.

• 18:01Scott Tolinski?

  Like yesterday.

• 18:01Wes Bos?

  Because the web is a mess with cookie banners.

• 18:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, and so many of the cookie banners are coded poorly or they feel like they, they, they're like dark patterns all over the place. It's like either, yes, I want the browser to accept all my cookies or no, this is dangerous. You don't accept it. Like so many people are like, the, the way that they present these banners to you are not nice. I'll just say that they're not nice for the user in, in many ways. So yes, standardizing, I feel like at this point needs to have happened.

• 18:31Wes Bos?

  You know what's a nice website that doesn't absolutely blast you in the face with cookie banners?

• 18:36Scott Tolinski?

  Ooh, I got a feeling. Yeah. Ooh, yeah.

• 18:40Wes Bos?

  Sentry, at sentry.io/syntax is, they got rid of all of their cookies on their website. And they had like a massive project to go through, like something as little as embedding a YouTube video requires a cookie banner. It doesn't mean that you have to get rid of all cookies, right? Like, like a login cookie or session cookie, those are fine, but like a cookie that tracks you across the web, those you have to actually opt into. So Sentry went on this huge thing to remove them from their platform entirely, which was absolutely awesome. So. You should probably use Sentry for uh for your website, for your bugs, for fixing your code. Like I got this AI thing called Seer that will uh take a look at your bugs and automatically fix them and send you a pull request.

• 19:25Wes Bos?

  It's fantastic. Sentry.io forward slash syntax.

• 19:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Did you know, Wes, that like there's a billion companies that use Sentry like Claude, uh Anthropic uses uses Sentry.

• 19:38Scott Tolinski?

  Disney Plus uses Sentry. There there's just like some of them.

• 19:42Wes Bos?

  I use Sentry.

• 19:43Scott Tolinski?

  Sentry. Every time I'm on my my dang Peloton, I think about that or tonal. So uh shout out to all the companies using Sentry out there in the world. Um. Next one I have here. This is uh I don't know if this will be controversial, but identity. Oh, there's so many. I don't. And I'm gonna say, I don't know how this would work. Technical details seem like a nightmare for this. We log in. Most of us are logged into our browser. Like, it should be easy enough to use that state of login, whether it is via pass key or whatever, to use that login state on an app. Now, I get it. A lot of people are gonna hate this idea because you want to have the individual app have the login and everything like that.

• 20:22Scott Tolinski?

  But it does feel like there has to be some sort of way to use identity easy on your site and not have to reinvent the the off wheel on every single website.

• 20:34Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 20:35Scott Tolinski?

  Just it just feels like there has to be some way to do that.

• 20:38Wes Bos?

  Yeah, some sort of like Paskey was not entirely that, right? But yeah, Paskey was an attempt to make the pain of logging in much easier. And I love it when it works. Man, logging into GitHub with a pass key. Absolutely love it, right? But I I think the at the end of the day, this is going to be a a phone in your pocket thing. People are going to be able to sign in with the phone in their pocket or or scan your retina or something like that. Yeah, like, why can't like like Face ID? Be the thing. I guess you're almost there with like signing in with Apple, right?

• 21:15Scott Tolinski?

  You're, yeah, sure. But it's still at the end of the day, what it's doing is it's creating a record in the database with the email address and whatever. And then that is controlled like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I again, idealistic Scott says, hey, we're reinventing the wheel so much here. Um, yeah.

• 21:33Wes Bos?

  One thing I have wanted for the longest time, and I've actually written this function myself is get element by text, meaning that like you can select an element based on its IDs or attributes or, or based on the children it has, or if it has a specific thing, but you cannot select an element based on the text that is inside of it, either in JavaScript or in CSS. And I would love, love, love, especially with a lot of these agentic browser things, you know, MCP server with playwright, you can select an element by text. I would love a native API for that. I don't know if we'll ever get it. It was doable with Xpath before we had, not before we had document dot query selector all, not before we had

• 22:18Wes Bos?

  document dot get element by ID, we had this thing called Xpath, which is a way for you to select elements based on their XML indentation. And there was something in there that would allow you to select based on the actual text of the element. And that would be sick.

• 22:35Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Did you ever think that we had a Xpath the same time we had Xpock? Do you remember Xpock?

• 22:41Wes Bos?

  What's Xpock?

• 22:43Scott Tolinski?

  He was like a 2000s era professional wrestler.

• 22:47Wes Bos?

  Oh, man.

• 22:54Wes Bos?

  Oh, I just Googled him. He's doing the suck it.

• 22:56Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, he was, he was the guy. He was the suck it guy. He was the guy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he might not have been the only, he's definitely not the only guy, but he was like, he was Mr. Suck it, I think, for sure.

• 23:10Wes Bos?

  I did not watch wrestling growing up. I had no idea, but me and my friends would walk around school being like, suck it. And we had no idea what that meant. You know, we were just saying, nobody knew what they were doing. And now I'm older, I'm like, oh, I probably shouldn't have been saying that.

• 23:25Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah. There was a time, I think when I was in like ninth grade where I don't think you could have not watched wrestling for that one year.

• 23:32Wes Bos?

  I've, I don't, I've maybe watched like one or two wrestling. And then what's the one where everyone beats the shit out of each other, but it's real?

• 23:41Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, I don't know.

• 23:42Wes Bos?

  No, it's like, it's huge right now.

• 23:44Scott Tolinski?

  Backyard wrestling?

• 23:44Wes Bos?

  Like Dana White.

• 23:46Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, UFC. Oh, okay.

• 23:48Wes Bos?

  Yeah, UFC. I went to a UFC party once. Holy hell, not for me. That's awful to watch.

• 23:53Scott Tolinski?

  I watch a lot. Well, I don't lately, but I did watch a lot of MMA, to the point where I was watching like, minor league circuit stuff and stuff.

• 24:04Scott Tolinski?

  But yeah, no, I like combat sports, that's for sure. I don't watch professional wrestling, though.

• 24:09Wes Bos?

  All right. This is probably high on my list with browser primitives, and this is just native reactive templates. Meaning that you have a variable, you put that variable in the DOM somewhere, and when that variable updates, so does the DOM, right? Some sort of templating, some sort of reactive variables, whether that is with like signals or whatever they choose to do. I would absolutely love something because I myself, if I'm coding up something very quickly in vanilla JavaScript, I'll always just make some sort of like re-render string where you watch the variable to change. It'd be great to have that as a browser primitive.

• 24:48Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Here's another one. Sync protocol. Wouldn't it be great if you had some kind of CRDT sync setup that you could just access like fetch? Now granted, there's gotta be a server involved, so you'd have to have some sort of sync server. But like, again, this is never gonna happen, but like, a primitive for accessing sync with a CRDT or even creating that server?

• 25:15Wes Bos?

  Like, I mean, we have web sockets, right?

• 25:16Scott Tolinski?

  That's what I'm saying. Something along a protocol like web sockets. Or even, even how about this in terms of the same world of a data or a local first or whatever, just databases that don't, don't suck built into the browser.

• 25:32Wes Bos?

  Because what do we have? We've got like local storage, not really database, got more of like a key value string store. You've got index DB, right?

• 25:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Wes Bos?

  Um, there's implementations of SQLite, but you want something that's, that's a little better.

• 25:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah. It's not the long lines what they're doing with like Postgres in, in Wasm, you know?

• 25:51Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Virtualization that doesn't suck. What do you mean by this?

• 25:55Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, like virtualized lists, you know, all the virtualized list solutions, especially in like React, or React Virtualizer, whatever that was. And virtualization, for people who don't know, is that it renders, you could, you could have a wrapper that, like if you have a list of a hundred items and that wrapper is only like five items visible, the additional hundred items or 95 items are not going to render. Basically saving your browser from having to do that work. The problem is, is a lot of these virtualization libraries then break search. And then if you do command F on the page, it doesn't find the item because it's not being loaded. So like,

• 26:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 26:33Scott Tolinski?

  Uh, something that, uh, controls rendering in that way that still doesn't break command F, um, so those types of things.

• 26:41Wes Bos?

  Content visibility in CSS is supposed to do this.

• 26:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 26:45Wes Bos?

  So the, it's a controls whether an element renders its contents at all, along with forcing a strong set of containment, allowing agents to potentially omit large swatches of layout and rendering work until it becomes needed. Meaning that like you have a list of 20,000 list items. You can put a content visibility property on there and then the browser will defer rendering it until it thinks it, it actually needs it. This is one of those things where I don't think we need APIs for this. I just think that like, like I've had, I've had problems with content visibility where I took it off and my performance drastically increased.

• 27:23Scott Tolinski?

  Totally.

• 27:23Wes Bos?

  It was way better, right?

• 27:24Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 27:24Wes Bos?

  I think that browsers just need to sort this out and then we can just, we can use as much HTML and, and you figure it out, right? You're the rendering agent.

• 27:32Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah. Why am I figuring? You should know if something is on the screen or not and control how that works and yeah, for sure.

• 27:40Wes Bos?

  Um, Ollie Williams, @hypedev on Twitter says, "We want put, patch, and delete on form." So form elements in the browser can only do two things, get or post, right? And if you're building an API, you should be using the rest of those, which is put, patch, delete. I think there's a couple other ones. Options, that's a stumped question for later. But if you're trying to build your app in a way that will ideally work without JavaScript, or you're trying to build on like web standards and then using JavaScript to like progressively enhance, if you're updating an item and you want to like use a patch or like a put, or if you're deleting something and you want to simply just have a button that deletes

• 28:24Wes Bos?

  that item via a form submission, you're kind of out of luck. You gotta like, you gotta put that into a post, right? And then you gotta put it on a different endpoint of like delete item. So that would be, that'd be pretty nice as well.

• 28:37Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I'll take that. I never understood why we have those verbs and they're not just all there.

• 28:42Wes Bos?

  That's a great question. Like, why did they invent those as the browser? Or not, they didn't invent it as a browser. They built it as part of like networking stack.

• 28:51Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 28:51Wes Bos?

  But why did we never implement those in it? Another one from Carl, Snorkle TV says, "Text metrics get bounding box of individual characters." Hmm. Being able to measure the actual size of it. And we, the text box trim has been a fantastic addition to CSS, meaning that if you've ever had that weird thing where your, your, your text is a certain height, but like the text is at the bottom of like the line height and it's not centered, text box trim takes care of so many of those use cases, which honestly is probably better than having to measure characters. But there still are, especially in the animation world, there's still lots of cases where you would

• 29:34Wes Bos?

  want to measure how big a letter is. And right now, your only option is sparan wrap, wrap every single character in a span.

• 29:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Hell yeah. Um, for a lower, lower level of connections, you have like Bluetooth listed here. Am I wrong? I thought there was a Bluetooth API. I, I haven't used this, by the way. Yeah.

• 29:55Wes Bos?

  So there is a Bluetooth and a web serial API, which allows you to talk directly over obviously Bluetooth or USB. And this is super handy for things like programming microcontrollers, or being able to update the firmware on your headphones without having to download like some sketchy like install thing, just to simply update the firmware, right? And that's why a lot, a lot of devices, if you want to update the firmware, you don't download an app, you don't visit a website, you get the iPhone app, right? And the iPhone app is going to be able to do it. So there are Bluetooth and web serial fantastic APIs, but they have not made their way into standards.

• 30:37Wes Bos?

  They've not weighed their way Safari says no way Firefox hasn't implemented it. So that would be really nice to have control over those things. Sockets, we have web sockets, right? And this is a security thing as well. You're not going to be able to access sockets directly. But when I was driving my Roomba with JavaScript, and when I was flying the drone with JavaScript, both of those things communicate from the computer to the wireless device over a socket. So you open up a socket and then you just have these, these lanes where you can send data back and forth. And in order to actually access that data in the, in the browser, you need to create a server that runs on your computer. And you got to hot potato the data.

• 31:22Wes Bos?

  So the data goes from the drone to a node server. And then the node server sends it over a web socket. So you can actually access it in the browser. NFC RFID, again, that those things would be fantastic in the browser, especially if you're trying to, you're making like a progressive web app, where you want to be able to scan something with RFID.

• 31:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, dude, NFC is so underrated in general.

• 31:46Wes Bos?

  Yeah, it's, it's really good. Look at this, I've got. We've got like a Yoto that I've been hacking right here. And here's the NFC card. And I've got this little, it's called a Proxmark 3, little NFC RFID writer.

• 32:00Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, cool.

• 32:01Wes Bos?

  I've been using that for my bamboo lab, the little things that go on the spools of filament. So you can write them. It's a wild world. Very fun.

• 32:11Scott Tolinski?

  I'm gonna say, Wes, one thing I love about you, you always got some shit on your desk that's going on. That's cool.

• 32:18Wes Bos?

  A lot. Can I, can we play, what are the most random things you can find on your desk?

• 32:22Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Wes Bos?

  USB Uart. So this is connecting serial. My sister got like a, some broken thing. And I soldered to it and I could see the boot logs of that device. What else is it on here? Some glue.

• 32:38Scott Tolinski?

  I have a terminal screen. I love this thing.

• 32:42Wes Bos?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 32:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. You know, the terminal screen can last for months because it doesn't update the data on it. It doesn't hit the web very often. So it has a set number of screens that it changes between.

• 32:55Wes Bos?

  This is an e Ink display for our audio listeners.

• 32:57Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yes. It's an e Ink display and you set up essentially scenes and those scenes change every 15, 20 minutes or whatever. But you could also say, hey, don't hit the web to update your data unless it's every like four hours or even every day or whatever. And therefore, because of that, just on this little battery in here, the screen just lasts forever. I mean, it's like, got my calendar, all kinds of stuff on here, just cycling through everything. Yeah.

• 33:28Wes Bos?

  Love that. For some reason, I have an iPhone 3. Cause one of my kids had it the other day and I was like, hey, that's history. Don't, where did you find that? They probably went through my boxes and took it out. Salad spoon. I was, I was writing or making some bins for my 3D printing. So I was measuring the spoon and I never brought that back up.

• 33:48Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I got a.

• 33:48Wes Bos?

  You got a blower?

• 33:49Scott Tolinski?

  A Wolf Box blower. It's blowing. I got a silicon soup thing that you, do you have one of these?

• 33:55Wes Bos?

  Silicon soup thing? No.

• 33:57Scott Tolinski?

  You put it in the microwave and then you put your soup on it whenever you're microwaving it. And then if I need to carry it to my office, like I often do, you just pick up this and carry it into your office like that.

• 34:08Wes Bos?

  That's what your sleeves are for.

• 34:10Scott Tolinski?

  Bro, I've spilled so much soup. I've burnt, yeah, I gotta have a silicon soup sleeve.

• 34:17Wes Bos?

  I got the Mad CSS logo. By the way, if you haven't checked that out, go to madcss.com. We're doing a major CSS battle tournament. It's gonna be awesome.

• 34:25Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Wow. The rest of the stuff on my desk is related to my surgery. I'll tell you that.

• 34:31Wes Bos?

  I could go, I could go all day, but I think that's enough. Let's talk about CSS, things that we want in CSS. Aside from some of the like primitives, being able to style them. Nick Williams says, "A way to specify speed, example, pixels a second for transition animations rather than just a duration." That's, that's really cool, right? Because if you have an animation, you tell it, I don't know, 100 seconds or 300 milliseconds, 200 milliseconds, but you don't know how far that is actually going. And if you want all of your, if you want them all to feel the same way, same thing where like if you like cancel a transition halfway through,

• 35:10Wes Bos?

  it would be cool to get the physics of that rather than just break it in the middle of a Bezier curve and then just reverse it from, from there on out. That would be sick in CSS. Yeah.

• 35:19Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I, I, yeah, if I, I'm dying for that, but yeah, more than Mary.

• 35:24Wes Bos?

  CSS strict mode, there's a lot of like baggage in CSS, right? Like what, how long has CSS been around for? 100 years? So there's 100 years of baggage in CSS. And there are a lot of weird like oddities that you just kind of have to deal with because you can't break backwards compat of the web. But what if we could? What, like in, in JavaScript, we did it, right? You, you just have like a use strict. You can pop at the top of your JavaScript file. Or if you simply just use an ES module, then that's considered strict mode. And all of the baggage of the weird web is, is gone. You break those APIs. So can't we also get strict mode, right? Turn border box on by default?

• 36:08Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. And there, there's so many. Dumbly named properties and stuff like

• 36:13Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 36:13Scott Tolinski?

  Right. I'm fine with breaking things if you if you have a version or a strict mode or whatever. I'm fine with that. Get rid of some of the cruft stuff that you don't need. And yeah.

• 36:26Wes Bos?

  One for browsers. Christopher Van Houten says, I'd like to see Safari move to Chromium. You hear this a lot. A lot of people say, everybody just move to Chromium. It would be so much easier for me. I'm going to tell you, you do not want that. We do not want a world where there is one browser engine. As easy as it would make your life to be able to just run one engine and run everything and it runs absolutely everywhere. You do not want a single browser engine. That's what going to cause the web to stagnate. That's going to cause a whole lot of, lot of pain.

• 36:58Scott Tolinski?

  How about this?

• 36:59Wes Bos?

  Things to compete.

• 37:00Scott Tolinski?

  I want iOS Safari to be, to be blink. That's it. That's it. Yeah, I don't know. Like iOS Safari is the dumbest one to debug. And I have so many issues with it. And there's so many like little things here and there with iOS Safari. You can, you can have normal Safari on WebKit. Keep the, keep the variety going or whatever. But like iOS Safari, or just give me F and Chrome with blink on iOS, please. Like, I'm so sick of, of.

• 37:29Wes Bos?

  But give it to everybody, though, because otherwise like normies are not going to change their browser engine on iOS.

• 37:35Scott Tolinski?

  I just, yeah, just for my own personal sanity.

• 37:38Wes Bos?

  Some countries have already done it. We talked about that a couple of episodes ago.

• 37:41Scott Tolinski?

  They shouldn't have to have the countries force the company to do the right thing.

• 37:46Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Um, AI access as a native API. Um, I'm going to tell you, and I actually had several calls with folks that work on, on Chrome. And I don't think we need this yet. Yeah. Because I don't think that we have figured out what these APIs need to look like. And if you rush these APIs out the door based on like what we need right now, which is like prompting and streaming back text into a chat. Then these are the APIs where you just, people are just not going to use them because they're just, oh, these are not nearly as good as what we have.

• 38:19Scott Tolinski?

  That's what happened with web components.

• 38:21Wes Bos?

  Yes, we do eventually need, I think, some sort of AI access in the browser that will allow you. And my, my idea is that eventually, we're going to get to a spot where you will be able to use your computer's baked in model if, if you want to, meaning that like, hopefully, in my ideal world, this API would be, you can use the local AI that lives on the device, or you can swap that out for a model that you load in yourself, kind of like Transformers JS. Maybe you load like, I don't know, a gig model into your application because it's well worth it for that. Or you can hit like an external API for that type of thing. One

• 39:04Wes Bos?

  API that will be able to do that. And then if you can access your, your, like the iOS model, or your Macs model, or whatever that is on there, then it becomes private, it becomes free, right?

• 39:17Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 39:18Wes Bos?

  The user's paying for it in their battery and their device, but it's, it's, it could be significantly faster. Like, what happens when you can run inference on absolutely everything? What happens when it's extremely fast, where it doesn't take four, five, a mill, 100 milliseconds, a second to come back? What happens when it's like, an instant? That opens up a lot of possibilities.

• 39:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, really cool. I've been, I've been thinking a lot about this kind of stuff lately.

• 39:43Wes Bos?

  Yeah, for sure. Chrome is working on this. They have, I'm in, I'm in the beta, that you can like, test it out. There's like, local AI models. And what it does is Chrome just downloads a small enough model, and then it will run it on your machine, and then you can just ask it for things. But it's slow, it's not very good, and it's at a spot now where people will go, cool demo, but I'm not actually going to use that because it's, it's not very good. I'm just going to use the, the paid one.

• 40:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 40:12Wes Bos?

  Like, even things like date picker input, like, natural language to date picker, right? The date picker of the future will simply just be me typing in February 18th, three years ago, or the last 40 days, starting from next Tuesday. You know, you'd be able to just type those in in natural language, have a model compute what that actually is, and then return to you some temporal durations that will match it.

• 40:38Scott Tolinski?

  AGI is me entering my credit card expiration date in any goddamn format that I want, and having it just understand it.

• 40:50Wes Bos?

  Oh man, let me tell you about postal codes inputs in Canada. Holy hell. So postal codes in Canada are like, like a letter, a number. I don't even know, but it's so obnoxious because first of all, on iOS, you have to switch between every other letter. You have to switch between the keyboard and the number input. And sometimes they have to be capitals and you generally you put a space in between the first three and the second three numbers or digits. But sometimes you don't. And then like the validation on postal codes is a nightmare.

• 41:26Scott Tolinski?

  Sucks.

• 41:27Wes Bos?

  I, we need AI for these things, you know, like I know a lot of you listening are big thumbs downers on our AI episodes, but like, you gotta, you gotta agree with me that like a, like an AI local, free, private model that can parse data inputs for you, or just like simply just like fix your validation errors that are, oh, I've put a space after my email address, you know?

• 41:53Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 41:54Wes Bos?

  That seems like a good use case.

• 41:55Scott Tolinski?

  I'm gonna, uh, to echo David Kramer sentiment lately, and it's, it's the, the people in, in January 2025, who are still LOLing about AI coding not being useful or good, bro, you are missing it. You're, you're missing it entirely. I, I think, I think you, you gotta update your brain because

• 42:20Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 42:21Scott Tolinski?

  Things have changed. The, the landscape has changed. Everything has changed. I can understand ethical in, in those types of stances on things. But if you're, if you're LOLing it because you think it's not capable, you are

• 42:32Wes Bos?

  It's not good. It makes so many mistakes.

• 42:34Scott Tolinski?

  You are very wrong. Yes.

• 42:37Wes Bos?

  I was thinking about that as an episode. What do you, what do you think about that? It's like, let's go on Blue Sky. And ask what people's hangups are. Um, and like, like, not just like, oh, it's actually really good. Cause like, there are a lot of it sucks, right? Frigging, have you ever tried to like, fix a CSS bug with AI? It's awful.

• 42:56Scott Tolinski?

  There's all kinds of things. Yes. And some things take longer. Absolutely.

• 43:02Wes Bos?

  It's not worth it in lots of cases.

• 43:04Scott Tolinski?

  Things are absolutely not worth it. When I did the, the hack week project for our sin hacks, our CSS battles thing, uh, man, it was way faster to do all that by myself. Uh, that, that's for dang sure. But like, there's a lot of things that can save you a whole ton of time on, for sure.

• 43:22Wes Bos?

  All right. I'm gonna, I'm putting that on. I'm going to blue sky. I'm going to get absolutely destroyed.

• 43:27Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 43:28Wes Bos?

  But we'll, uh, we'll, we'll like, look, put together all of like people's thoughts and like, why they don't use it. Um, and then we'll, we'll just like, kind of go through them and say like, that's valid, or that's, I think you are wrong there. Here's how you could, you can fix that type of thing.

• 43:43Scott Tolinski?

  And people, when you are defending your stance on not using AI, would it hurt you to not be such an asshole? Like crazy. People are just yelling at people all like, look at this stupid loser who's using AI. Wes did something. Wes had some tweet about 3D on AI and there's just some absolute loser on Twitter. Uh, just calling him names for no reason. Like, what?

• 44:14Wes Bos?

  Somebody call me a name?

• 44:15Scott Tolinski?

  Bro, you were quote tweeting them.

• 44:18Wes Bos?

  Oh, I forget what that was.

• 44:21Scott Tolinski?

  But, yeah, you're, you're brain.

• 44:24Wes Bos?

  To be fair, there are so many obnoxious people in this space.

• 44:27Scott Tolinski?

  There are so many obnoxious people. Yes.

• 44:30Wes Bos?

  And like people that have obviously vested interest in saying that this is the next thing. And lots of people are just straight up lying. Um, so I get it, but. I feel like I'm not one of those people and I feel like I have a pretty good stance on this stuff.

• 44:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 44:45Wes Bos?

  That's where we're at.

• 44:46Scott Tolinski?

  Just be reasonable, folks, please.

• 44:49Wes Bos?

  All right, last thing we got here is APIs in Node, Bun, Dino, whatever. Justin White says, I want the Web Speech API in Bun or Node.

• 45:00Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 45:00Wes Bos?

  I, I agree. And I don't know that, that you want just like a straight up, like that's, that's what happened to Chrome. Chrome implemented the Web Speech API.

• 45:09Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Wes Bos?

  Nobody uses it.

• 45:10Scott Tolinski?

  No.

• 45:10Wes Bos?

  Cause it sucks.

• 45:11Scott Tolinski?

  Sounds bad.

• 45:12Wes Bos?

  You know?

• 45:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 45:12Wes Bos?

  It's, it's awful. And we're like, and we're talking both like text to speech and speech to text.

• 45:17Scott Tolinski?

  Yep.

• 45:17Wes Bos?

  And there's always going to be better models out there. So what we really need is, yes, you should be able to use like the Siri voice built into the browser if you, if you want. But you should also be able to load in additional models. And, and I think that this gets wrapped up in some sort of AI APIs that are built into the browser that let us optionally use the things that are available on the user's device.

• 45:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. You know what? In that same regard, like, give us good text to speech. I just did a text to speech server myself and it's not a problem. I have a text to speech server running full time on my, my laptop. And anytime I need text to speech, whether it is through my agent setup or whatever, it just pings my laptop. It's got the voice, it's got the whatever. And it's, it's, it's, it's like really, really good quality compared to any of the APIs that are in the browser. And it wasn't that hard to set up.

• 46:15Wes Bos?

  Like a Bonzi Buddy sounding.

• 46:17Scott Tolinski?

  Right. And, and the voice, it, it's not like, uh, what's the one that we, 11 Labs? It's not like 11 Labs good, but it's approaching that good. And it's, it's way better than, than a robot voice. I'll tell you that. I love text to speech. I've been using text to speech so much with my setup that's generating, uh, it, it's taking research topics for me and turning them into personalized podcasts, uh, and those types of things. And setting that text to speech up has been such a nice thing for me and my learning capabilities. Cause I'm not reading anymore. I'm not using the built in Mac OS one that also sucks. So yeah, text to speech, make it nice.

• 46:59Wes Bos?

  Alibaba just released a model called Qwen TTS.

• 47:03Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 47:03Wes Bos?

  Which is, in my opinion, as good as a lot of the Eleven Lab stuff. And you can, you can, apparently you can run it on like relatively normal hardware. Like you could run it on your laptop if, if you wanted to, or you can, 10 cents per 10,000 characters, which, that's a lot, right? You wanna, you wanna read a 5,000 word blog post? Oh, no, 5,000 characters, yeah.

• 47:29Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Wes Bos?

  It probably can get expensive, but it's, it's not that expensive. And you can train it on your own voice, which is, again, another ethical, ethical problem.

• 47:39Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't need anything to replace my voice. I don't need anything like that. I just wanna listen to somebody teach me things rather than, um.

• 47:47Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 47:48Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 47:48Wes Bos?

  Beauty. All right, let us know down below in the comments. What is the web missing for you? What do you wanna see added? Cause people are watching. People that do the standards are constantly asking this question. They want to hear, what do people actually want? Leave them down in the comments.

• 48:04Scott Tolinski?

  Let us know down below what you know. Let's do sick picks. Wes, you got a sick pick? I got a sick pick while you're waiting. You know what? I was just talking to producer Randy the other day about like budgeting and stuff like that. And it made me remember that I have sick picked this a couple of times before, but not recently. And it is new year. I lean really hard on budgeting software and it's important to have a good handle on your finances at all times. So I pay for a service called Monarch and Monarch was like a good successor to like Mint if you used Mint, but it's so much better. And anybody who says Mint was like the pinnacle of this kind of stuff is just, you know, nostalgia,

• 48:50Scott Tolinski?

  whatever. But they recently redid their goals system because their goals were like one of the things that was lacking. The goals are so much better. They give you like sand key reports of where your money is going every month, every year, whatever. And I gotta say, the whole thing is just a beautiful, well-made app. It alerts. You for reoccurring transactions that you can be cutting back on and it helps with so much and Courtney and I now go through this our budget every other weekend and go through the accounts and are all working on it together and it's such a nice great system. So check it out Monarch. I'll have a link in the show notes if you aren't using it.

• 49:30Wes Bos?

  All right. My sick pick. I've sick picked this a couple of years ago, but I can do it again because it's one of those things I just absolutely love.

• 49:36Scott Tolinski?

  Wow, that looks so cinematic on camera right now.

• 49:39Wes Bos?

  Does it?

• 49:39Scott Tolinski?

  I think it's probably because you're using the teleprompter. It's like giving a nice diffuse look. It's wow, it's beautiful.

• 49:45Wes Bos?

  Yeah, it's hitting the glass of the teleprompter. Anyway, this is a Slonech rechargeable headlamp. I've had this thing for probably four years. It is freaking fantastic. I'll tell you, tell you what I like about it. USB C rechargeable. It has a removable 18650 cell, meaning that if this thing dies, it's not e-waste. You know, you just you buy one little battery, you replace it. It is bright as heck. You know, like I'm always working on something where it's super dark and I just want to light the thing up or I'm at the cottage and it's like super and I want to see where the dog is, go into the washer, make sure it doesn't get eaten by a wolf. It is awesome. The elastic on it has like out of over four years, it is still in really good shape. It just is comfortable on

• 50:27Wes Bos?

  my head. I've my kids have some really crappy headlamps. I've gotten as gifts and they always take mine because this one is the best. So if you are looking for a nice quality headlamp, it's a very dad purchase, but check out these Slonech headlamps.

• 50:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, heck yeah. Cool. Well, check us out on YouTube. Check us out on your podcast player, all that good stuff and we will see you next time.

• 50:48Wes Bos?

  Peace.