1042: Is the Jev Hype Overblown?

Is Jev actually a leap forward for classification or just hype and fake demos? We dig in, plus Claude Code’s new AGENTS.md support, TinyCast (the free, open-source Raycast alternative), an iPhone Fold simulator in Xcode, and a stack of dev tools you’ll want to try Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 01:17 The iPhone Fold Simulator and Foldable Web APIs Features behind a flag Syntax Meetup in San Francisco 07:03 Claude Code Finally Supports agents.md Changelog 11:42 Using Your Claude Subscription Inside PI 13:07 Raycast Pricing Changes and the Rise of Tinycast 18:24 Our Most Used Raycast Features 21:22 Browser Hopping: Back on Helium After Ditching Dia 22:12 1Password’s Redesign and Reliability Problems 23:11 Jev Explained: A Model That Only Answers Questions 31:59 CJ’s Jev Chat Bot Demo With MCP Tools 36:09 The Kevs in the Room: Open Source Jev Alternatives Cloudflare’s Kev Jared Palmer’s Kev 45:39 What We’ve Actually Built With Jev So Far Jev Benchmarks 51:59 Brought to you by Sentry.io 52:55 GPUI Kit: Building Native Rust Desktop Apps 58:07 Antfu’s DevFrame: A Framework for Building Dev Tools 59:45 Where Is the Line on Using AI in Video Editing? Runwayml Upscaling 01:06:00 AI Upscaled Security Photos and Internet Detectives 01:08:07 Qwen Image 2.1 and Real Transparent Backgrounds 01:10:18 AI Generated Posters Don’t Have to Be Horrible 01:13:28 Orca: A GUI for Wrangling Your Fleet of Agents 01:15:37 Grok 4.7 First Impressions and Its Pricing 01:18:58 Waiting on Google and Microsoft’s Big Models Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Scott Tolinski?

  What's up everybody? It's time for another Syntax Weekly. We're coming at you with all kinds of stuff. It's Jeff-tember, folks. We're talking about Jeff. We're talking all about the cool stuff that we have been doing. Jeff alternatives, local hosting, Jeff, all kinds of stuff. My name is Scott Tlitsky. I'm a developer from Denver and with me as always is CJ Reynolds and Wes Boss. What's up, guys?

• 0:26Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 0:27Wes Bos?

  Just Jeffed up. What a week. Super exciting. We're gonna talk about it like if it's overblown and whatever in a couple of minutes, but like, super fun. I had a lot of fun seeing everybody's demos and everybody getting really excited about it. And it's just, it feels like a breath of fresh air.

• 0:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. I know the demos were fun, even if they weren't all practical and lovely. I thought it was just a fun time to do fun demos. CJ, how are you feeling?

• 0:50Speaker 01

  I like it. Like, I posted my fun demo and honestly, it made me feel better about the state of AI, because at least the demo that I build, it makes you think about your chatbots or the way that you use LLMs more structured, in a more structured way, instead of just throwing everything at an LLM. So, I like it.

• 1:07Scott Tolinski?

  The text can just do it. We just tell the LLM to use my computer and it just does it somehow. So, yes, I do think it definitely added to that. Let's get into it. We had the iPhone Duo simulator came out recently. Yes.

• 1:23Wes Bos?

  Last week on Monday, we said Xcode 27.1 beta, it will be coming out hopefully this week. And it did come out last week. And with that, it included the very first look at the iPhone Duo simulator. Initially, I had said, there has been no peep from Apple or anybody about supporting the two CSS APIs that are needed, right? There's, there is the viewport segment API, which is essentially, if your website has more than one viewports, meaning like, like a folded display or multiple screens, then you can decide where things will go. You maybe have a CSS grid and you want to put them on different parts of the

• 2:04Wes Bos?

  fold. The other one being the device posture API, which is basically a media query that tells you if the iPhone is folded or not, or your mobile phone is. Now, there is a flag. So if you go into the, I've got the simulator open here, go into apps, settings, scroll all the way to the bottom. I'm only showing you this because of how ridiculous it is. Then go to advanced, then the, there's, this is all the advanced settings, but no, psych, nothing there, nothing there. Oh, feature flags. It was hiding. You gotta click it. And shout out to Bramis on Blue Sky. He figured this out. If we scroll, you scroll all the way down in here, there's some kind of exciting stuff in here, but somewhere in

• 2:48Wes Bos?

  here, there is, I've turned them on already, the feature flags for turning on those two APIs, right?

• 2:54Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Wes, this is the exact same thing that happened with the Vision Pro release.

• 2:59Wes Bos?

  Oh, really?

• 3:00Scott Tolinski?

  And these flags, like the WebXR flags remained unchecked for like a year. I mean, who knows? Yeah. Who knows when they'll do this for this and actually ship this into Safari? Because for some reason, Apple makes this so you gotta wait for a dang OS update to get one of your apps updated, but yeah.

• 3:19Wes Bos?

  Yeah. So here's a little demo from Bramis. He's a, Devrel works at Google on Chrome. And he basically whipped this up, which is like an example of what you might want based on if something is folded or not. You might want different layouts. And then, of course, you can fold the entire thing. And this shows you both. You can set up two different viewports, right? This is viewport one on the left and viewport two on the right. And it's not to say that you can't do this with CSS already. I know that people are already typing that, but it just allows you to know if there are multiple viewports. And if you are in a continuous

• 3:59Wes Bos?

  posture, meaning that you are in like flat mode here, or if you're in a folded state, which is when you've obviously have it folded. And if that's the case, I think you would want to know if it's folded or not, because you can't just like swipe your finger across the screen as easily when the thing is in folded. So something as simple as like, like a button that you want to click or something that you want to swipe away, like I think of like a notification you might put in the bottom middle of an application, and you want to be able to swipe that away. You can't, you can still do it, but that's, it's gonna be hard when you have like a little valley in the folded thing. So you may want to decipher when you are folded and throw that into a corner.

• 4:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 4:44Wes Bos?

  That stretches that viewport.

• 4:46Scott Tolinski?

  I love all the people complaining about all the new screen dimensions and screen situations we'll have to support now on the web.

• 4:53Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 4:53Scott Tolinski?

  Like, brother, I lived through the device lab era. I had a whole wall full of devices in my office, all synced to be able to make sure that it worked on it. Like postage stamp size iPhone, all the way up to the giant phablets of the era. So, you know, it's nothing new, I think, for us. That's it.

• 5:12Wes Bos?

  Can we also show you this?

• 5:14Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. God, it's not good.

• 5:16Wes Bos?

  Those toolbars. And I think there might be a viewport tag we can use to stretch this, but by default, there's a toolbar on the bottom for the URL and a toolbar on the right for everything else. Like, there's this like weird Wi-Fi icon, which I assume is for like your, your carrier. But it's just so huge.

• 5:39Scott Tolinski?

  Why? Why is it so bad?

• 5:41Wes Bos?

  There's no room for a website.

• 5:44Scott Tolinski?

  I think maybe they don't want room for website. They say no website room. But I think that the native apps are like this too. And people are like, well, it's a skill issue, because you can just theme it to look like. Brother, you can't theme away this chunk. You can't theme away that.

• 5:57Wes Bos?

  No. I wonder if they're gonna have to fix that. But hopefully, we see those things unflagged. It's kind of a bummer that they're not launching with support for folded websites on a folded phone. But hopefully, we see that get, everybody from Apple has been very quiet about it. So I bet we'll, we'll hear something a bit more pretty soon. By the way, Syntax Meetup, San Francisco, October 27th in San Francisco. We are meeting up at the Bear Bottle Brewing, which is basically, if you're in town for GitHub Universe, or if you're in town just because you live somewhere in California, come on down. You don't need a GitHub Universe badge or anything like this. This is just our totally separate meetup.

• 6:39Wes Bos?

  So if you're in town, come hang out with us, October 27th. Go to syntax.fm/meetup, grab your ticket before they are all gone.

• 6:48Scott Tolinski?

  Did you hear that, San Diegans? If you live in California, you are invited to the Syntax Meetup in San Francisco. Yes.

• 6:57Wes Bos?

  Come on down.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Come on down.

• 6:58Scott Tolinski?

  Come on down. Yes. That was a great transition, by the way, Wes. So really good one. I think next up is CJ. CJ, what do you got, buddy?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So this is huge news. We've been waiting for it for years. Claude Code has added support for agents.md. So this started in version 2.1.2. Yeah, it's, it's the most ridic, like, it's so easy. Yeah, AGI is here. They finally added this thing. If you're unaware, like, if you're working with other coding agents, like Open Code or Py or some of these others, typically, they're set up to look at agents.md with all their instructions by default. But Claude would never look at that file. It was looking for Claude.md. And so typically, what you'd have to do is create a link to the agents file. So you could just have one, especially if you were using multiple agents.

• 7:45Scott Tolinski?

  But guys, the Anthropic team said that Claude is a special snowflake and it needs its own special agents file. And therefore, you couldn't possibly reuse an agents file from one agent to another agent, which honestly, even if it has a kernel of truth, is like the dumbest possible reason to not support a standard here. Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  No. In all of my experience, simply just linking the file got Claude to know about the projects, because I put all the stuff about the project in agents.md. So, yeah, this was ridiculous that it took this long for them to ship.

• 8:19Wes Bos?

  Don't celebrate just yet, folks. Because, did you, did you read how they implemented support for the standard agents.md?

• 8:28Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, no.

• 8:29Wes Bos?

  They created a new custom way to ingest things into Claude, which is called a mod. So basically, they're rolling, they're going to be rolling out a new way to modify Claude with things called mods. I'm assuming this is kind of like plugins. And the way that they had implemented agents.md is through their new thing of mods. So, are we all gonna be writing mods now?

• 8:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 8:58Scott Tolinski?

  Why couldn't they just dang change the path? I mean, come on, or just?

• 9:03Wes Bos?

  There, there are some, like you said, there are some differences between it, but like, nobody cares. You know? Nobody cares.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Now, all of this gets injected into the context just so it can read one different file? Like, that's crazy. That's ridiculous.

• 9:18Wes Bos?

  I don't know if this, I don't know how, I haven't looked into how mods just work. But I think mods is a way to provide additional instruction files. So I think this is, this is programmatic. It's not just adding additional context.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  It looked like a prompt. Maybe not.

• 9:33Wes Bos?

  Agents.md read the way Claude Code reads Claude as a plugin under one instruction. No, I don't, I don't think so.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Okay. So yeah, if you can just provide it a file and that puts it in the context, that's great.

• 9:44Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Okay. The plugin itself. Is just a JSON file. So I think, I think we're okay.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  But it does have a description that I'm sure is going to go into context.

• 9:55Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  The more I use Claude, the more I hate it. It's all just like locked in. And the, I don't know, people like the latest models like Fable and Opus 5, because they're like really proactive. But when I'm coding with an agent, like I want to know what it's doing most of the time. I don't want us to just go off and run 30 tools and then come back to answer one question.

• 10:18Scott Tolinski?

  You know what? I don't know if that's what I've experienced. What I've experienced in the difference between the two, Fable and Astra, Astra specifically, is that I feel like Fable does a better job of completing the job. Whether, even if like I have a detailed task list or whatever, and I'll find Astra like, kind of just stops and be like, okay, I got this part of it done. Okay, but what about the other parts that are clearly listed in your, your task work? Okay, I can go do those now. I'm like, okay, well, I told you to do them, you know? So that's, in my experience, that's that insistence part to keep working. That, that's the difference.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  I'm mainly talking about, like, a lot of times when I use agents, I am, myself, I'm exploratory. Like, I want to answer a question. I want to know something about a codebase. And pretty often I'll have like a one sentence that's like, tell me about this. And I think I'm mainly complaining about auto mode. I don't know if you've used auto mode in Claude, but auto mode, in a way, whatever that harness is, forces it, not forces it, but it's more inclined to just read files and start executing things versus just answering my question. Because I agree, like, if it's off to run a task and I do want it to run in the background, great. But auto mode makes it so that like every single prompt becomes some sort of like background process.

• 11:37Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 11:38Scott Tolinski?

  I will say, guys, I have been using, yes, it's all Python. I have been using Py to do my Claude recently and not using Claude code via a Py extension, and it's been good. It's been very good. So it just works. And then I don't have to deal with any of this crap and I can still use the Fable models. Yes.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  You can use your Claude subscription in Py now?

• 12:02Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, yes.

• 12:03Wes Bos?

  Are you like legally allowed to do that though, Scott? Or are you gonna get thrown in jail?

• 12:07Scott Tolinski?

  I, I'm not going, I'm not going to get thrown in jail. And yes, I'm legally allowed to do it. I will share this. Let me, let me even find the exact which one. It's called Py Anthropic off. I did a deep dive into which of these works the best this last week because I was very frustrated with the whole situation. So I'll post the one in chat that I'm using currently and to great success.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  I'll try it. I mean, that's the main reason I use Claude is because I want to use the Claude models without having to pay API key prices. So if I can use it with open code, I guess maybe that Py adapter.

• 12:43Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, I don't know about, yeah, open. I don't know anything about it in open code.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, but how's it any different from, from Py? I'll have to check it out.

• 12:49Scott Tolinski?

  There's a whole bunch of them. I was concerned about them. But I have been using it now for a couple of weeks and not only have I not been banned, well, I, the usage has been totally normal. So, yes.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Sweet. Do we want to get into Jev next or we want to do something else?

• 13:04Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, I'll show you. Well, Tinycast. Let's do Tinycast.

• 13:08Wes Bos?

  All right.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:09Scott Tolinski?

  Tinycast, the, because the world was ablaze with what I believe to be anger towards Raycast for, they released some update, Wes, and you can speak more on this because I think you know more about the pricing changes. I got hit with a pricing bubble and I was like, what?

• 13:25Wes Bos?

  Yeah, Raycast version 2, they changed the way that their AI credits are used because when they initially rolled it out, it was like, I asked it a question and they gave me an answer. And now it's just these like huge identic loops and MCP servers and that makes sense, right? Like, pretty much every AI provider has had to be like, well, you guys are using this a lot more than we thought. Therefore, we need to change how this works. And then the other one, which it kind of stung for people, is that from Raycast 1 to Raycast 2, they put bring your own key behind a paid subscription. So.

• 14:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, Vercel does that stuff too.

• 14:05Wes Bos?

  Yeah, which I understand. I really feel for, for Raycast in this because it's hard to like run a business like this. The same thing happens to Warp as well. It's like they built this amazing tool that is just beloved by the community. And almost everything that you use in Raycast is, is part of the free thing. And then at a certain point, they realize, we probably have to make a little bit of money to keep this thing up. Like, we gotta pay these developers, apparently. And like, you have to start charging money for some of this type of stuff. And you have investors and whatnot. It's not just this beloved open source tool. It's, this is a real business. So they have to do that. And obviously, they're gonna, they're gonna sour some of their power users on this type of thing. So is this a replacement?

• 14:48Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. And I will say the BYO key thing, like, I understand, like, if you're giving inference and stuff like the BYO key, I think I, if you're, you're paying for the tokens, I shouldn't be paying to pay to use my own tokens. I get that you're, you're paying for the tool or whatever. I'd more than happily pay for other things in Raycast, which I have for a long time. BYO key just rubs into, it bugged the life out of me when I needed to put a balance on my Vercel account to bring my own key there as well. It's like, ah, I don't want to, yeah, I don't want to have to pay.

• 15:20Wes Bos?

  I agree as well. Like, so many of these beautiful, that's why I love like Open Router, because you just want to taste a bit of a model. You could just, you could just use it for like one or two prompts. Whereas like, like something with like 11 labs, they just start locking all of it behind like a $12.99 a month subscription, which is so frustrating when you only want to use it just a little bit.

• 15:42Scott Tolinski?

  Sometimes, Wes, I just want to put a little bit of the model in a glass and whisk it around a little bit, shove my nose deep in there. Yeah.

• 15:49Wes Bos?

  You don't have to make it a big relationship. Let's not get crazy.

• 15:53Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. This model has notes of tennis balls and red wine. Okay. Well, did you ever watch wine tasting documentaries? They, they talk about that. They're like, this, this has notes of freshly cut grass and it's stupid.

• 16:09Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, Tinycast. So tinycast.dev is a slot fork of Raycast. You can call it that. I'm, I'm comfortable calling this a slot fork. It is open source though, and it is essentially exactly Raycast to the point where you can bring in your Raycast things. There are, it does have better.

• 16:28Wes Bos?

  Extensions? Like it implements the API?

• 16:30Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. It bring, you just bring in everything. Bring in your whole, it brought in my, all my clipboard stuff. It brought in everything for me. So this is, this is it right here. Again, it, it works very much like Raycast. And there's a ton of settings. There's a ton of stuff. It gets all my snippets, all that stuff loaded up. Everything just worked. I think the thing that rubbed people the wrong way with Tinycast was that it was basically one click to just migrate over everything from Raycast, including your extensions. And it's clearly just slot forked, right? That said, from what I've been hearing, it's, it's better performance. Now, I haven't validated that on any performance checking of my own.

• 17:13Scott Tolinski?

  But yeah, I mean, look at this. This is so shameless, all this stuff. But it actually, it works pretty dang good. And I had it open and I gotta say, I kind of, I, I hate that I like it because like honestly, this feels rude to me to do like rip off their entire design aesthetic, to rip off their entire dashboard, to just like completely rip it off that bad. Like, that feels not good to me. I don't, I don't like that from, from a perspective of just totally ripping someone off wholesale. That said, the app does work well and it's fast. So I'm conflicted. I've been using it and I like it. So, yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, this kind of gets at the, the whole, like, everyone can just use AI to build their own apps now. So you have to come up with a better business model. So like, Raycast, the feature set wasn't amazing, but it was very useful. I mean, I, I've wanted to build like a simplified Raycast for the longest time and then this thing came up. But because there's a lot of features of Raycast that I don't use. I don't have the paid account. I don't, I don't hook up AI.

• 18:15Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  I do like, like app launching and shortcuts for like system things like sleep my computer or lock the screen.

• 18:23Wes Bos?

  Can we ask that? Like, like, let's go around, around the circle. What are your top used Raycast features?

• 18:30Scott Tolinski?

  Emoji, clipboard.

• 18:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Scott Tolinski?

  And then window management. But I built my own window manager, so no longer window management.

• 18:38Wes Bos?

  Interesting.

• 18:38Scott Tolinski?

  That's pretty much it.

• 18:40Wes Bos?

  Mine, my, probably my biggest one is translate conversion. So like 100 kilometers, you type in and it'll tell you how many miles, right? Or 500 USD, it'll tell you how much in. It's so nice and fast. The built-in, like the, with premium Raycast, the translation is so good. It's super good. Like, I was like trying out some like alternatives for O-Monkey and it's just, it's not as good. It's not as good. And so I use that one quite a bit, the like conversion. Obviously, app launching, hotkeys, shortcuts, math, I use quite a bit. Obviously, app launching. I use, I don't use the AI all that much. I kind of do wish they offered

• 19:23Wes Bos?

  a version without the AI built in, but yeah, I don't know. It's, it's kind of, kind of tricky for them. Oh, the file search is awesome. Like, if you can't find, can't find something in like macOS Finder, you just type it in, in, into the Raycast file search and it is awesome. It doesn't search in the files, I don't think. It just, if you kind of know what the name of the file is, it is very good for that. I was beta testing that for like a year before they released it. And I was a big fan of it. So yeah, I don't use the like dictation for one. I use Super Whisper for that instead.

• 19:58Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. One thing I do like about TinyCast, no account, no telemetry, no bullshit. I like it. I like that nothing leaves your Mac if you don't have like, sorry, Raycast, like this is, these are big things for me. I like this. I don't, I don't need an account to use my, you know, I've been around since the Alfred, pre-Alfred days of this kind of stuff. I don't need an account for this stuff. Just let me use the tool.

• 20:21Wes Bos?

  Does, does Raycast require an account before you even use it?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't, but there's a lot of telemetry.

• 20:28Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  And I've, so I've set up a new Mac a couple of times recently and I just have to go, there's so many steps to disable all the junk, like disable the, asking if you want to log in, asking if you want to add an AI provider.

• 20:40Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah. Man, people keep, people are asking me like, hey, why do you use Microsoft Edge? And I was like, I really like it. And then I installed Microsoft Edge on like a new computer the other day. And I was like, oh, this is, this is awful. It's awful. Really bad. You gotta like really turn everything off. It takes a lot of work. And like, they disabled my, like, new tab the other day. Like I have, new tab is just blank for me. And I had to like install some short extension and then like circumvent some API to allow me just to have a new tab with nothing on it. And then they turned it off the other day. And it like, all of a sudden it was like celebrities, news, you know, weather? No, I don't care about any of that.

• 21:22Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, cool. Just to talk about browsers real quick. I'm back on Helium, folks. I ditched Dia. It's been like a couple of weeks. I ditched Dia. Dia sucks. And Dia sucks because it's constantly doing too much. You're doing too much. I hit a button, the chat window opens up. I found out there was some agent process that was hitting 100 CPU for no reason. I've been on Helium for a while, folks, and I was finding it to have a wonky support for a number of things, one of those being one password to the point where it was driving me nuts. Turns out, it's actually just one password. It's not, uh, cause it's bad on Dia and Chrome too. So, um, it wasn't a Helium thing. So at this point, I'm like, well, what am I on Helium for? Or what am I on Dia for? I like

• 22:05Scott Tolinski?

  the sidebar. I like how arc it is. I went back to Helium today, today, and I'm way happier.

• 22:12Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Speaking of the businesses there, or like software that has like, been beloved and now is falling from being beloved is one password, man. Everybody is, they've rolled out their like universal sign in UI, which I, I, I don't mind. I don't love it, but I don't mind it. And a lot of people are, are really mad at the new design.

• 22:34Scott Tolinski?

  You know what? The, the problem for me is reliability. And people were like, well, it's just, it's fine for me, or it's whatever for me. I like kind of, I gotta do like five or six clicks. I had to do like three separate fingerprint sign-ins to sign into one site when it already is listed. Do not make you do it again for like six hours or something. But then somehow every single time it has to be like multiple fingerprint sign-ins. Like, there, there's something wrong there, folks. There, yeah.

• 22:58Wes Bos?

  Can I say something that'll make everybody mad? It's the sync engine, Scott. It's the local first.

• 23:04Scott Tolinski?

  I don't think that's true.

• 23:06Wes Bos?

  No.

• 23:06Scott Tolinski?

  I think it's probably the macOS APIs constantly shifting into dumb browsers. Yeah.

• 23:11Wes Bos?

  All right. Let's talk about Jev.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 23:15Scott Tolinski?

  It's Jev 10, folks. It's time to talk about Jev.

• 23:18Wes Bos?

  All right. So Jev was a new, maybe CJ can give us a rundown. CJ did an excellent video, like, pull the all nighter. I don't know if he did or not, but he pulled out the most amazing video explaining what Jev is. So last week, this new model was announced and it's not like your other models. CJ, you want to give us a quick rundown of what it is?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, happy to. Check out the video. It's only 17 minutes long. I'll, it's, it explains it much, much better than I'm about to and shows a bunch of demos. Released by Diogo Almeida, previously of ChatGPT, and also one of the co-inventors of reinforcement learning through human feedback. The headline is, it's really fast and it's really cheap and it's not an LLM. So the, the whole idea here is it's system one, is what they're labeling their models to system one. And that is like, it doesn't generate text like an LLM. It just answers questions. This is really the main thing to take home. Any, any Jev demo that you see, they have essentially taken the problem that they're trying to solve and reworked it into something that can be questions and answers from Jev.

• 24:27Wes Bos?

  Like, you have to give it the, the possible answers, right?

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Exactly. So Jev supports three different question types. One of them is a yes or no. This is known as a null. It also supports a pick one, that's known as a choice. And then it supports rating on a scale that's known as a score. So take any question or something that you want to ask in LLM and instead phrase it in a way where it could be answered with yes or no, or you could choose from an option or get some sort of rating. And that's basically what Jev is. And that's also why it's fast in a lot of scenarios, because it's not generating text. Like it's, it literally, it just answers questions. So in this example, a lot of the examples in their docs are all about like classifying support emails, because a lot of

• 25:10Speaker 01

  people have built LLM agents to classify emails and respond to them or decide what to do with him, almost like triage. And so with Jev, you could have a question that says, is this email a refund request? And it'll say, yes, it's a refund. Or you could say, what team should respond to this email? And Jev will say, I think billing should respond to this email. Or you could say, how frustrated is the user in this email? And it'll give back a rating scale. So that's literally all Jev is. You ask it questions, you get back answers, but you have to provide the choices in the case of choice. And that's it. That's all it does. But there's a lot of different things you can do with that, that, that primitive. So yeah, that's Jev. I don't know, other questions.

• 25:54Wes Bos?

  I think it's kind of interesting because like a lot of demos that we saw were like, like, one of the coolest ones was like a self-driving Tesla. I ended up building my own version of it just to sort of understand what it was. And as long as you can put the possible, like the, the whole scenario input into the LLM, and that right now it's, it's only text. So you would have to like input that entirely as text and then give it a possible options, like drive straight, brake, turn left, turn right. And you can give it like 30 or 40 different possible options, right? I did it and it ended up hitting a pedestrian and driving into a backyard, which

• 26:34Wes Bos?

  was, yes, yes, yes. Not great. But Justin Schroeder's implementation was obviously much better.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. It's, that's the thing. It's only as good as the state and the questions that you give it. So like with Justin's example, it like, that's why if somebody sees this demo and you don't understand that Jev is just a question answer, you might think, oh, is it like navigating a 3D world? No, Justin has broken this problem down into, do I see a stop sign? Is there a crosswalk? How fast am I going? Should I turn left? Should I turn right? Like, just think about all the questions that should be answered and you give Jev the state of like where the car is and everything else, and it will answer those questions.

• 27:11Wes Bos?

  So probably not what you want. Like even as cheap as this is, it's, it's probably, it's too expensive for self-driving and, and you shouldn't be, imagine, imagine self-driving was based on HTTP APIs.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 27:23Wes Bos?

  We would all be dead. So obviously, that's not what this is for. But if you are looking at this type of thing and your first instinct for this is, that's stupid, that's not what this is for, blah, blah, blah, that's not how it works, then you're obviously not, you're not thinking. Like, as soon as all of these like demos that come out are not people like trying to like hype it up, they're just trying to understand, how do I use this thing? And what is it, what is it good for? And what is it not good for?

• 27:51Scott Tolinski?

  A demo can sometimes just be a creative demo. It doesn't have to be a real world usage of this thing is going to be used for self-driving in the future. It's like, I, I just explored and it made this, this fun demo. In a smaller regard, like what is a smaller thing than self driving is like browser use, right?

• 28:12Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 28:12Scott Tolinski?

  It's, it's self-driving using the browser. You get an accessibility tree. It determines where to go. It does that thing. And I built a self-driving GPU-y crawler to do like, not computer use, but GPU-y manual testing instead of using something like DevTools MCP for the web, you know, to be able to, to use. And it is fast as hell. And it worked very good for that. Yes.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  There, there is a comment, I think we can just get into a little bit, that says, how does it determine the answers? This is the other thing that is a little bit different and weird about this launch is the team at Typesafei has not published any research papers about how they built Jev. There is no explainer of like the internals. People have tried to guess at what it is. Some people have guessed that it's like, trained initially very similar to an LLM, but then the post-training process is a whole lot different. But I will say, that's one of the weird things about the whole release of this model is we have no idea what it's doing. And I guess we'll talk about, there have been some open source and basically like recreations of Jev using LLMs and other types of models.

• 29:21Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  To show that like, first of all, this idea isn't exactly new. And then also like, you could potentially do this locally and don't necessarily need a hosted API. But you're asking the right question because we don't know, is the answer. And people have tried to poke and prod at it to figure out its internal architecture, but we actually have no idea what this model actually is.

• 29:42Wes Bos?

  I will also say, there was a lot of people that built demos that were like, like Kits made this demo where he was asking it how many calories something was. And I was just like, like, how do you do that? Like, the calories, you have to give it possible options. And essentially, what he was doing is he was giving it just ranges of how many calories things should be. And then based on 100 grams, and it wasn't accurate at all. It wasn't very good at all. It ended up, it ended up just being math that random, he said, like, that's not what it's for. And a lot of the complaints people had with these things were just like, you're confusing people as to what the actual model is. And to that, I say, like, if you are so far gone

• 30:24Wes Bos?

  that you have to understand how something works by just reading a couple tweets and like, that's it, you're not going to make it in this thing. You, if you want to be able to understand the stuff, given how easy everything else is right now, you have to build something. You have to read the documentation for, you have to watch a 17 minute video from CJ. Please, I beg you.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  I think also the, like, because people are so used to LLMs that do everything, like, LLMs are general purpose, and the best ones can do anything. And so I think that's also where the public perception might be coming from is like, they've already seen LLM, so they see these demos with Jev, and they're like, oh, it's so different, or so much better. But yeah, understand the context, like, what can you actually do with it? And then how does that fit into what you're trying to solve?

• 31:10Scott Tolinski?

  And it's crazy how many people did chess demos with Jeff. And they specifically say, don't, this isn't going to be good for chess. It's like, people don't even read the onboarding at all.

• 31:20Wes Bos?

  Why is it not good at chess? Because it has no reasoning?

• 31:23Scott Tolinski?

  Because chess, I think, has, Liz, I'm not a chess guy, folks, so do not skewer me. But I'm pretty sure because there's, there's context in terms of what moves were done and the order in which moves were done. But I don't know that to be sure.

• 31:37Wes Bos?

  Should be able to pass that in, though. But maybe that's, that's how we beat these chess bots, is that every single, like, oh, I know this bot is going to make this move, just like it, it writes the same code every single time.

• 31:48Scott Tolinski?

  Wes, I know how to beat a chess bot.

• 31:51Wes Bos?

  But how?

• 31:52Scott Tolinski?

  You unplug it. You just unplug it.

• 31:53Wes Bos?

  Oh.

• 31:55Scott Tolinski?

  I mean, come on.

• 31:56Wes Bos?

  You've discovered AI safety, Scott.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Can I show my Jev demo really quick? I built, I called it a chatbot. And I think this is another reason why you, you might see this demo and think that I'm like, saying something that it's not. Well, the way that most people interact with a chatbot is like, tool usage. Like, it's, it's a lot better when we have grounded answers from like Wikipedia, or weather, or whatever else. Yeah. And so I hooked up Jev to like, seven or eight different MCP tools. And I shaped the questions in so that, like, given a user's prompt, which tool would they like to call? And I also did some preprocessing. So I take the user's prompt, and I extract out like, capital letter names, places. I have, I found a, a natural language

• 32:41Speaker 01

  library that's like, super fast. It works without a model and just knows about parts of speech. And so it can take a plain text prompt and figure out what the user is asking. So in this case, it called the weather MCP to get back the weather, because I said, what's the weather in Denver, in Denver? But the, the way that I asked Jev to do it was, for this prompt, is this a new request for something the assistant can do? And then it'll say with 99%, it's 99% sure that this user is asking a new request. And then I have another prompt that lists all 17 available tools. And it says, which tool would fulfill the user's latest request, taking the conversation into account? And with 100% certainty, it says, you should call the get weather tool. And then there's another question that says, for

• 33:24Speaker 01

  a weather request, which city or place does the user want the weather for? And again, this was the preprocessing step where I picked a few options and then, yeah, from the user's prompt. And then that's what I'm asking Jev it should pick. And here it's saying 100% accuracy that it should choose Denver. And then it also could do time and everything else. So again, my, my whole demo here is like, if you reshape how we talk to chatbots to like, more deterministic actions, they're much faster and much more accurate. Like, another cool demo is, I can say, how tall is Mount Rainier? And this will actually reach out to Wikipedia, do a search for articles, pick the, the Mount Rainier article, pass back the first 120 lines of the article, and ask Jev, which one of these lines answers the user's question? And boom, elevation 1400 feet. So.

• 34:09Wes Bos?

  Yeah. I think that's the other thing is people don't realize that you can use this recursively, even with the example of like MCP UI, which is like, here is my entire design system. Which of these components should I use to display the weather? Okay, now that we're in that, which of these pieces of information should go into the title? You know, you can just, you can kind of run it six or seven times to get to the end result. And you can have, like deterministic, no, sorry, not deterministic UI that has been, been generated by, you don't need to have the whole LLM. And because of that, it's much faster, which is.

• 34:49Scott Tolinski?

  It's much faster, yeah.

• 34:49Wes Bos?

  Awesome. Yeah. And at the same time, everybody, the last week has been like, oh, maybe WebMCP is not so bad, thanks to the syntax episode that we did on WebMCP, because WebMCP is awesome. And people have not, like, woken up to how awesome it is. And I think now that everybody's back on the WebMCP train, now they're all looking at it, and we're all on board. Guess what? Works perfect with tool calls that have deterministic tool calls. WebMCP, excellent use case for Jev.

• 35:22Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. You know what? I want to applaud Wes here, because Wes took a segment on Jev and figured out, how can I make this about WebMCP?

• 35:32Scott Tolinski?

  You love that.

• 35:35Wes Bos?

  It's pretty much my whole game. Yeah.

• 35:36Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I, you know, anytime, anytime an LLM is like, using its reasoning or whatever to pick a tool call from a list or anything like that, or deterministic scripts or anything like that, man, Jev stepping in there for me to like, pick which swamp automations I'm going to use, that's going to, that's going to be awesome for me. Or especially even like, you could build in an extension to Py, which does a better job of loading skills. I find sometimes the harnesses do a bad job at picking skills, especially when I have a lot of them on my system.

• 36:09Wes Bos?

  Let's talk about the Kevs in the room. So since Jev has been released, there has been a release of two Kevs. Kev from CloudFlare and Kev from Jared Palmer. And obviously, both of them named Kev, because that's a great choice. I would have gone with Jevadaya, but Kev is, Kev is all right. And people are saying it's, I don't know, CJ has some, some details on if this is actually as good. But they're trying to figure out, how do we use fast and cheap LLMs that we already have to replicate this Jev API and experience that we've been using?

• 36:45Scott Tolinski?

  And actually, can we speak on that, too? Because there's some confusion about whether or not Jev is using an LLM behind the scenes, just because of these other open source ones.

• 36:54Wes Bos?

  For you?

• 36:55Scott Tolinski?

  Well, well, no, but we don't know what type of language model it is. Is it a LLM? Is it, people have said, is it a diffusion model? Is it this? The Jev team hasn't said.

• 37:06Wes Bos?

  It's just a bunch of people in a room answering very quickly, actually.

• 37:09Scott Tolinski?

  But they still haven't said what it is. We don't know. Because they haven't come out and said that it is an LLM definitively, even though it is most likely a language model of some kind.

• 37:18Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Yeah. Are they doing that because they don't want other, the other, like, you have to imagine that we're going to see this from OpenAI, Anthropic?

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah. I think, right, I think as more people realize how useful Jev is, and how useful it is to not directly use an LLM. Yeah, OpenAI is going to release their version. We're going to see a Anthropic version for sure. And like, there are open weight models that people are trying to fine tune to behave more like Jev. But yeah, I could talk about that now. So I'm sharing a little code snippet here. And so like, if you're not aware, when you're using any sort of SDK to talk to an AI, you can ask it for structured output. So you can give an LLM a prompt. And then, in this case, I'm using the AI SDK from Bursell. But I provide a ZOD schema that says, you should respond with the JSON object in this format. And so if you think about it, like, you could

• 38:11Speaker 01

  basically just take the, the output format that Jev gives you, and now ask it LLM the same thing. So it's definitely possible. But we always have to wrap this like, in a try catch, because sometimes, like, the model's answer cuts off, or sometimes it hallucinates answers. So you technically can do this with an LLM, but Jev is just fine tuned in a way where like, it doesn't make up options, and it just immediately gives you back the, the things that you were asking for. And so that's what a lot of people have tried to do with these more open models. But yeah, I, I hooked up my, my Jev chat here to Leia and Kev, which are two different open source versions. Leia is one that is actually from someone who had this entire blog post that was like, I've been working

• 38:55Speaker 01

  on this a year ago, and nobody cared. And they have like, all their research papers and everything else. But I'll show you at least with the demo.

• 39:03Wes Bos?

  We don't want your research paper. Give us a funny Twitter video, please.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But there's, yeah, there's a whole Hacker News thread with people explicitly saying, like, you have to worry about marketing and product and all of the things that, yeah, that TypeSafe AI has done. But I will say, so I'm, I'm running Leia locally. And I can ask it, what is the weather in Denver tomorrow? And I'm running the biggest local model. The response took three seconds. And for that same question of which place is the user asking for, it picked tomorrow instead of Denver. So it, it didn't, it didn't pick correctly. And it's a lot slower. Obviously, you could maybe run this on a bigger machine. I picked the 4B model that can run locally on my Mac.

• 39:47Scott Tolinski?

  Leia, 71 on the speed.

• 39:51Scott Tolinski?

  63 on the intelligence. So Leia does come in pretty low where Jeff is still the top dog in terms of overall performance on these types of things, according to the, uh, this bench, this particular benchmark in terms of both cost intelligence and whatever. And the one thing that I've noticed about, people say, oh, I'm running Leia on my computer instead of Jeff. Brother, it is not Jeff. It's not as good. And part of what makes Jeff useful is that it's good. Like, not that it exists, or that it can do the thing.

• 40:20Wes Bos?

  It's like general purpose, fast, cheap, and good.

• 40:23Scott Tolinski?

  Right. And so when you look at this, it's important to pick options, not just because the guy made the Leia thing before, or talked about it before, that it's actually worth using. So I like the SEMIF one, uh, using Quinn 3.54B that you can run locally. And it, it gets close and is about half the price in terms of usage, in terms of it's being faster, but then the intelligence is a little bit lower on their benchmark here. So for the most part, like, there is, the reason why that the local Jeff stuff isn't as exciting to me right now is because none of them are as good. And what makes Jeff actually useful

• 41:05Scott Tolinski?

  is that it's good. Unlike an LLM where you can, you can get by the fact that like using smaller models for smaller tasks. I think with this type of thing, you want it to be good for it to be useful.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think that that's what they got right. Like, they, they, the launch was great. Like, the early access made people like, want to get access and got excited when they got access. Like, the marketing aspect of it, great, but then also they delivered and it, and it works. Like, I've, I also tried SEMIF on my local demo, and it only supports up to like, I think it was initially, there's like 13 options, whereas Jeff supports a whole lot more. So I couldn't even get my demo working with, with SEMIF. So it's, it's nice that they exist. I think more will pop up, especially the, like, people have more time to work on this. Cause Jeff was literally just released, like, last week.

• 41:52Scott Tolinski?

  And another one that people have been talking about, I don't know if anybody has classifier.dev pulled up. Maybe we can pull up classifier. Classifier.dev is the only one that's beating Jeff on the Jeff scale here.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'll say, what's funny about it is it's built on top of Jeff.

• 42:06Scott Tolinski?

  It is Jeff. Yes.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  It is Jeff.

• 42:08Scott Tolinski?

  People are like, I'm using classifier. Not Jeff. It's using Jeff.

• 42:13Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Well, can you explain what, how do you build something on top of it? And how is it better?

• 42:18Scott Tolinski?

  So my understanding is that this is using an LLM after the Jeff processing. But that, that could be a very dumb understanding of this.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it says a smart tier re-asks only what Jeff was unsure about, and comes out 2.5 points on, plus 2.5 points. So that follow-up is what makes it a little bit smarter. It gives it the edge.

• 42:39Wes Bos?

  Okay. Cause what you could do in this case is you could throw this to, I guess, like, in, they could throw it to Quinn, or you could like, you could throw it to, what's the OpenAI one? Luna. You know, like Luna is, is dirt cheap, especially if you're just asking it text. You know, I was, I was sending Luna an entire image and asking it to detect what was in the image and draw a box around it. And that was one tenth of a penny, right?

• 43:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 43:06Wes Bos?

  And that's, that's an image as input. Obviously Jeff is, is much cheaper. But if you're just falling back to an also very smart and fairly cheap model, and like, that might, you're maybe, oh, you're splitting pennies here. But like, people are running this on literally everything. I, what I did a demo where I downloaded, uh, 100 YouTube videos from Syntax and analyzed every sentence in, if it was positive or negative. And I should publish the results, this is actually kind of interesting. But I think, I think analyzing 100 sent, uh, 100 videos, all of our sentences, just like, I don't know, probably 80 hours of content, and it costs, I think about a dollar, a dollar 50, which is still

• 43:51Wes Bos?

  expensive if you're analyzing every YouTube video in the world. But also if you're thinking about, like, that's, that's quite a bit of, of processing. I often wonder, like, at what point does this get cheaper than, like, the CloudFlare request?

• 44:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, right. Dude, I can't wait to be running something as good as Jeff on my local machine, over everything, all of the time. Yes.

• 44:15Wes Bos?

  Over everything. Yes. Categorizing, smart filtering.

• 44:19Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 44:19Wes Bos?

  There's a lot that could be done there. Better search. Like, imagine, if this stuff gets cheap enough that, like, a search on our computer is gonna be good. What a world.

• 44:29Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, right. If the, if the Apple search could actually work. Yes.

• 44:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  I like, I like, uh, Jeff as also like a follow-up algorithm of sorts. So one of the demos, somebody built a Twitter extension that hid the things they didn't like, like rage bait or political comments, but it did it in real time. So you're literally scrolling, and you're not seeing the things you don't like because Jeff is automatically classifying them. You could do the same thing for like, a YouTube feed, or any other, like, you just mentioned, search. Like, what if you could take, like, the first 20 pages of search and really figure out, get rid of all the, the clickbait and figure out which of these actually adhere to what the user is asking? Like, that's, that's another quick follow-up that instantly gives you better answers and a better experience. So.

• 45:10Wes Bos?

  Yeah. And you can't do, like, I just tried with, with Luna. Is Wes cool? It, obviously it's cheap, but it took 2.8 seconds. And that's, that's too long for, for interaction. Versus, like, a typical request to the Jeff is, I was seeing it at like 150, 200 milliseconds back and forth, you know? And that includes the inference time, which is, is starting to get closer to like, like a nice real-time experience.

• 45:37Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah. Man, it's, it's quite, actually, so stuff that we've built with Jeff, I know, Wes, you want to really show your FMK with Jeff. I threw Jeff into my Prompt Boy setup in two ways. So my Prompt Boy was my personal to-do thing that agents could get working on to-dos. I put it in two ways. One, I put Jeff in the classification of the prompts that are coming in. So I pick up my thing and I say, hey, can you do work on Prompt Boy to do this and that? It uses Jeff to determine whether or not that's coding work or just a standard to-do or whatever, and puts it into the right, the right mode, right? I also use it in the general to-dos to classify it as like, is this urgent? Is this a long

• 46:16Scott Tolinski?

  task? Is this this? Is it that? And my God, it cost me nothing, and it's been great to use. It auto-classifies every single to-do I put in there via voice or via text or anything, and it just works. It's great.

• 46:30Wes Bos?

  It's really cool. I'm, I'm curious to see someone, like, I know OpenRouter has classifiers in beta right now. I'm, I'm curious to see, like, when this will start to roll out. Cause even like, toxicity detection, like a classifier, like, I was, when I did my receipt printer, and the messages, in this case, it was just messages, were rolling in. And, and I say, like, is this, is this something that is swearing or bad, or someone is being, like, trying to, like, sneak stuff through? And if so, give me a toxicity score, and then you can base it on that. But that's, that's, that's an entirely separate model that you need to run just for toxicity detection.

• 47:11Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, you know what?

• 47:12Wes Bos?

  And that's just one thing Jeff can do.

• 47:14Scott Tolinski?

  People often are like, why would you use an AI for this? Why not, why can't we just use basic classifications? And the, the problem is, it, like, when you're, when things get to be generic enough, or what's the word I'm looking for? Ambiguous enough? Like, I, I've been building a classifier that was not using AI to do my running, with just a code-based classifier for this task, or this task, or this task. And it felt like impossible to get it to be where I wanted it to be all the time. I put Jeff in there, and it's been 100% accurate in terms of like, all right, this is a coding task. You know, I just, it, it's better with that kind of stuff.

• 47:53Wes Bos?

  I bet Jeff will roll out multimodal. So you'll be able to, like, give it an image as well. You know, is this, um, a potentially sensitive image? Should I show it on the screen or not?

• 48:05Scott Tolinski?

  Multimodal would be huge, yeah.

• 48:06Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Being able to put text into it would be great. Or sorry, not text, images. Uh, and then I bet we'll see like a Jeff reasoning, where there's like a trade-off for that type of thing. But I'm also curious to see what's going on at the other, uh,

• 48:22Wes Bos?

  The other like Anthropic and OpenAI right now, are they, they probably have something similar to this. They're trying to figure out how they can get it, get it working as well. Cause I'm sure they're saying, well, we can take Luna and make it 80% as good. And we can speed it up so that it's, you know, like, I'm sure they're like, I can get sort of a similar API for these response times if we just juice it. And the other question is like, is Jev making any money? Or are they just coming out with such cheap prices? Just to, to sort of thwart all the competition. Cause if this, if Jev was like 10 times the cost, everyone would be like, cool, but.

• 48:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, you're right.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  They did mention in their launch post and on their site that the pricing is not, not subsidized. So if they're telling the truth there, then yeah.

• 49:07Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. And they were saying basically, cause they were asked directly about making money from it. And they were saying, obviously at like normal scale that you would use an LLM at, it's not going to make that much money. But the idea here is because it is so fast and you can use it so much that the amount that you're calling Jev is way more than you'd be calling anything. So therefore that's the, the path to making money is that you're just going to be using it a whole ton.

• 49:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah, you'd be using it more. Yeah.

• 49:34Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. On every frame of a video, you know, or something.

• 49:37Wes Bos?

  Here's one more post from Greg, who works at Sentry. He says, here are the results of using Jev on one of our security pipelines. We already have to use smaller and dumber models to make it economic. That's exactly what it is, is we need to run something a lot on our security pipeline, but we can't use the big models because it's, it simply is just way too expensive to do that type of thing. I even think about how much money like someone like socket.dev spends scanning every single NPM thing published ever. You know, that's gotta be really expensive. And they do pipe a lot of that into LLMs. They told us, he had them on the podcast. This model does it over 5% cheaper, faster, while maintaining higher accuracy.

• 50:22Wes Bos?

  Like the good, fast, cheap triangle just got smashed on, on this, you know? It's better, faster and cheaper.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I think this one alone answers why there's so much hype. Obviously, you know, some of the demos aren't as great or whatever else, but this is a real business use case and it ticks all the boxes.

• 50:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah. Then I think people, I think that conversation is missing because I see this so much on Reddit and other places. I'm running this local version and it's like, okay, but it's not, you're not, it's not as useful. That's not the point, you know?

• 50:56Wes Bos?

  Guys, I need to put this thing on my DMs, on my email. I need to put on everything.

• 51:00Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Put it on everything. Yes. Oh, it's the new Frank's Red Hot. Ooh, Frank's Red Hot. They need to collab with them, right? Yes.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  But I'll say I'm not doing that because every prompt goes to Jev's API. So I will wait for a local one before I do that. But that, that kind of use case is just so great. Like to be able to go through your, like anybody right now that has an inbox that is out of control with like 10,000 unread emails. Like imagine sticking Jev on this and then having just a, like bringing that down to maybe a hundred emails that you actually need to look at versus the 10,000.

• 51:34Wes Bos?

  Show me the stuff.

• 51:35Scott Tolinski?

  I'm gonna put Jev on my email and it says, is this email saying that my Mac Studio has shipped? If not, then, then send it somewhere else. I don't want it.

• 51:45Wes Bos?

  Yeah. But like, even if it's 10 times slower locally and it takes a second to process that email, who cares?

• 51:53Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 51:53Wes Bos?

  You know?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:54Scott Tolinski?

  Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

• 51:55Wes Bos?

  The local use cases is maybe even different then. I like it.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:59Scott Tolinski?

  Um, speaking of Sentry, by the way, folks, check out Sentry at sentry.io. Sentry is the reason why we're able to do this show and they are amazing. If you want to support us, support Sentry. At the very, very least, the best thing you could do is just send Sentry a little, a little message on Twitter saying, thank you for syntax. That would be really cool. Just let them know how much you love syntax and therefore Sentry, they're great. Check it out, sentry.io. Awesome product. CJ, you add something?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just keep talking about Jev. Well, one last thing. One last thing about all these other open models. Jev has a context size of 32,000 tokens. Leia only supports like, I think it's a thousand. Kev only supports up to 8,000. So not only are these models not as good, these open ones, they're not as, but they're also can't handle as much data. So that's it. I'm done talking about Jeff. Okay.

• 52:50Wes Bos?

  We'll talk about Jeff in like 10 minutes. Let's talk about something else.

• 52:53Scott Tolinski?

  Guys, I'm a big fan of Jeff. Um, I can talk about GPU I kit if you guys are cool with that. Does that sound interesting?

• 53:02Wes Bos?

  I'm in.

• 53:02Scott Tolinski?

  A little, little post Jev, uh, come down here. We're going to be, let's pop this open. GPU I kit, guys. GPU I is the framework that the Zed team created to build Zed, which is an awesome high-performance editor. It works great and it's all in Rust. Now, a lot of people know about like Tori, which is the web view way of building desktop apps with Rust. Tori is great for a number of reasons, but I personally had to move off of it to use Electron because of just general maturity in the ecosystem and things like that. And at the end of the day, you know, I wasn't, you're not getting the benefits of Rust from using something like Tori anyways.

• 53:47Scott Tolinski?

  And by default, if you're, you're doing this on Mac, you gotta support Safari. Either way, GPU I basically brings good UI to Rust apps. It's awesome, but I always thought that GPU I was like, okay, it is gonna be very hmm, in the weeds, getting something that looks nice. Well, I found a number of these things, but this one is particular, is excellent. It's a GPU hyphen kit.com, GPU I kit, which is basically you could consider it like a ShadCN or any React component library for GPU I, meaning that you can build good desktop apps with React style-like components

• 54:32Scott Tolinski?

  and CSS style-like components directly, easily. And AI agents are super good at this. And like, they do stuff like virtualizing lists out of the box, data tables, all that stuff. The component library for this thing is bananas in terms of how much stuff is supported.

• 54:49Wes Bos?

  60 things.

• 54:50Scott Tolinski?

  It's, it's everything you could possibly need or think about. I've used this now in three different projects that I'm working on and it's, it's been great, man. I actually really like this for, if I'm going to be building local, personal software, I'm going to be reaching for GPU I kit and I'm going to be reaching for GPU I. I'm going to be reaching for those two things over anything. Because again, the whole thing, the whole process is you're not using, uh, and I'm a web guy. I'm sorry, web folks, you're not using a web view for this.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  So does it have a cross-platform story? So like it can, the same desktop app could run on like macOS or Windows or Linux?

• 55:29Scott Tolinski?

  As far as I know, absolutely.

• 55:30Wes Bos?

  According to Shopify, you don't need that anymore though, because Shopify is what dropping React Native and going native.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:38Wes Bos?

  Simply because the cost of implementing the same UI in two different native and HTML CSS is not as expensive as it used to be, you know? It's much easier to do.

• 55:51Scott Tolinski?

  Well, that's okay. It is macOS, Windows and Linux. I've seen a bunch of people getting GPU I working on mobile too, but that seems crazy to me.

• 56:00Wes Bos?

  I mean, it works.

• 56:01Scott Tolinski?

  It works.

• 56:02Wes Bos?

  It works on the website. It renders to Canvas, right? Obviously it's not HTML, but.

• 56:08Scott Tolinski?

  But I'm talking about mobile, uh, mobile native. Yes.

• 56:12Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Theoretically should be able to use it anywhere that you can render Rust, right? Which should be anywhere.

• 56:20Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah. And I built two things with it. You remember I had an app called File Bro, Wes? Do you remember File Bro? File Bro is like a data automation website or app for me that like, uh, you can, it's kind of like Hazel where you're setting up automations for folders and files to move things in the right place. I, I had that in, in web tech and it's like moving that to Rust and GPU I kit has been sick. I built a little desktop app for managing all the web properties between my two computers. So that way I can keep track of them easily. Like, oh, the one on my laptop is five versions behind the one on my Mac Mini. Let's sync them, you know, that type of thing. I'm using Jev and all this stuff too. Jev is coming back into the fold, folks. W Jev on both of these projects. And I just recently built a, a window manager with Rust for myself

• 57:05Scott Tolinski?

  that I used GPU I kit to do the settings menu. My God, it's sick. It just works. So yes.

• 57:12Wes Bos?

  When do we get this type of stuff in like a car UIs and like native, you know, like, like UIs in things that are not the web and not like an Android or iOS app have been like hurting for a long time. And probably the biggest spot that we see awful UI is in like car infotainment screens. Like you gotta think like people putting all of this energy into things that are not rendered on one of the big three platforms now. Hopefully this will start to trickle down into some of the bigger infotainment screens.

• 57:47Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Yes. Let's get some of that going. Okay. That's all I got for GPU I kit. GPU is dope, folks. Check it out. Yeah. Cool project.

• 57:55Wes Bos?

  Who's got one? CJ, you got one or you want me to go?

• 57:57Speaker 01

  I got a quick one.

• 57:58Wes Bos?

  All right.

• 57:59Scott Tolinski?

  We're missing the formal handoff, guys.

• 58:01Wes Bos?

  No, that's.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  That was so formal. That was very formal. I like that. So Anthony Foo, also known as Ant Foo, has released a new project called DevFrame. It just went into version 1.0 and it's a framework for building dev tools. You can check out the launch post. He goes into all of the types of dev tools that Ant Foo has built. If you're not familiar with Ant Foo, they're very prolific in the open source space. They work on Veet and Vue and they also created SlyDev. And on top of that, lots of dev tools for all of those things. This isn't a problem everyone's gonna have because not everyone's building dev tools. But Ant Foo has built a lot of dev tools and has taken all, everything he's learned and put it into a framework. So it's called DevFrame.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  And the idea is you define your tool in a somewhat agnostic way. And then you have handlers for different frameworks. So the same dev tool could run in Nitro or Hono or NextJS or SvelteKit or Veet or RS Build. So this is gonna be huge for library and framework creators that want to maybe add more telemetry or more info about what's happening inside of your app when you add them to your app. So, pretty, pretty sweet. Yeah, DevFrame.

• 59:17Wes Bos?

  That's awesome. DevTools in UI have gotten so good over the last couple of years. And it's, it's so nice to see some sort of like standard basis. I know building like a dev tool, extending Chrome DevTools has been a huge pain in the butt. So stoked to see this. And also behind Shiki, which is the syntax highlighter that absolutely everybody uses. You can give it a VS Code theme and you get beautiful syntax highlighting.

• 59:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, he's a G, no doubt.

• 59:45Wes Bos?

  All right, I got a question for you guys. You are working on some footage in your project and it's shaky, you know? Or it has a background noise or you need to remove a background. And there's a tool built into DaVinci where you can just like make your shaky footage a little bit better or repair or remove a background. That's, that's okay to do, right? You have some footage and it's, maybe you drop some frames and you use some thing in DaVinci to, to, to try to replace those frames. That's an okay thing to do by, by your regard?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  I think so. I think a lot of times the, yeah. Well, the algorithm typically will zoom in, figure out what it's focused on and then like automatically adjust in those, in like left, right direction.

• 1:00:30Wes Bos?

  I think that's okay. Is that AI? Is that AI, you think?

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  It depends on the algorithm that they use.

• 1:00:35Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  I think it's possible to do without AI, but again, we don't know because we just clicked the stabilize button instead of DaVinci.

• 1:00:41Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, right, yeah.

• 1:00:43Wes Bos?

  It's something I think a lot about because I watch these TikToks of people like being anti-AI. And they are, have AI posters that are anti-AI and they, they just generated them with ChatGPT. Or they have like, like an anti-AI t-shirt that's been clearly made with AI. And, and then, or they're like, they don't realize that like you have a TikTok and your auto captions and your background removal are, that's AI. You know, and I get that there is, there is a difference, right? You can't just be like, no, I won't use it any. I'm just gonna cut myself out frame by frame.

• 1:01:13Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Wes Bos?

  But I got thinking about this because Runway ML posted this the other day where they said, "Introducing enhanced frame rate." So our new frame interpolation model converts any footage to the specs you need, including 25, 30, 48, 60, 120 frames a second. So what this means is that if you have some footage that was recorded in the wrong frame rate, or if you have, probably the biggest use case for something like this is if you want to take footage that was not recorded for slow-mo and you want to make that slow-mo, so it's not blurry, it will sort of interpolate the frames in between, given the, the things that you wanted, which is kinda interesting.

• 1:01:58Wes Bos?

  And I, I was just kinda looking at this demo being like, usually the, the fight is you shouldn't use AI-generated video or you shouldn't be using AI to generate posters. But there's like so much of this like in-between where it's like, yeah, I filmed this thing and it's dropping frames. Or my Riverside is dropping frames all day long and we need to fix the footage.

• 1:02:21Scott Tolinski?

  So I've used Topaz. So Topaz has been doing this for a long time. And I don't know if Top, because Topaz, you can choose the models and stuff. I don't know if the Topaz models are any different than what they're using at Runway. But I haven't particularly found the results to look that natural when you're, when you are increasing the frame rate.

• 1:02:42Wes Bos?

  The DaVinci, like if you have a cut and you wanna like smooth out the cut, it like,

• 1:02:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:02:47Wes Bos?

  It tries to like morph your face from one to another.

• 1:02:49Scott Tolinski?

  It's just guessing, yeah. It's just interpolating and guessing, yeah.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's deterministic to define which pixels go where.

• 1:02:56Scott Tolinski?

  Well, yeah, some of these, the, the Topaz one is using AI models. So that is using models, yeah.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, the DaVinci one for the smooth cut. But for the enhanced frame rate, every frame that it adds is generated with AI. Like it has to use diffusion to come up with the interpolated frame. So I have a feeling you'd be able to see those AI frames, especially if there's like weird artifacts.

• 1:03:21Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  If they try to turn a video into slow motion.

• 1:03:24Scott Tolinski?

  In my experience, that is the case. You do get those, still those AI artifacts in them. Yeah.

• 1:03:29Wes Bos?

  What about if you couldn't tell? Like at some point, this is gonna get good enough. Should you use this?

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  But let's take a step back and talk about the people that are making those arguments. Cause like right now, a lot of young people are very much pushing it back against AI. Like the, the youngins are like no AI anything. But a lot, but most of that is coming from a, a moral standpoint of like the, the companies are not moral. The, the models are not trained in a moral way. I do not wanna be associated with these things. I think if you're someone that has that standpoint, no, no AI at all. Like you cannot, like you are absolutely a hypocrite if you go off and use a tool like this in your creation, yet you post videos about being anti-AI. It really comes down to like, I guess, understanding as well.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Because if you do use these tools and then it becomes like, well, I'm not using him in this way or that way. Like at that point, you're just not sticking to your morals or the reasons for choosing this.

• 1:04:27Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, when I, when the AI stuff, coding stuff first kinda came on to the scene, you know, Blue Sky at that time, and it still is to a, a degree, to a lesser extent, I will say, like extremely anti-AI at the time, like not touching it. Cause this was like before people are like, eh, it's actually gotten pretty good. I tweeted out about the accessibility benefits that you can get from using AI for various ways. And like, not even that was gonna get traction amongst some people. Cause it's like, there, the, the captions have gotten a hell of a ton better with AI-based captions. I mean, like the accessibility things, yeah, geez.

• 1:05:04Wes Bos?

  Being able to talk to your computer, hey, click on the follow button, you know? Not like tabbing a thousand times to get to it.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  But I think it's the same thing. Like if you're an environmentalist or you care about where data centers are going, not just AI data centers, but data centers in general. But then you sit at home and watch Netflix, like that's using data centers. So I, I think you, I don't know, you have to follow your,

• 1:05:27Scott Tolinski?

  We're all hypocrites in various ways.

• 1:05:30Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I don't think you can completely abstain from it and then just like, like not go in a car, you know?

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  You have to go live in the woods.

• 1:05:37Wes Bos?

  Exactly. I know. You kinda gotta live in it, especially if you wanna be able to reach people to, to tell them what it is that you're thinking and you have like a, a reasonable take on it. You know, that's the other thing is you don't wanna be this obnoxious person where people write you off right away because of whatever reason. But I don't know, I thought that was, that was kinda cool. I thought I would, I would bring that up for a bit of a different conversation, but it's kind of a weird word. Also, the other thing, this is somewhat related, is that I keep seeing, you know, like somebody will break in, like I'm on, I love local Facebook groups. Big fan of the Small Town Facebook group. If you've never joined Small Town Facebook group, highly recommend joining in on one. Cause this, this type of stuff that people post is absolutely hilarious.

• 1:06:21Wes Bos?

  Like whose horses are these? You know, it's just like someone's horses randomly.

• 1:06:26Wes Bos?

  But what often will happen is like somebody will get broken into or they're like, their truck will be stolen or whatever. And they'll have like some blurry camera and like a snapshot. And then immediately somebody goes, takes that, pops it in ChatGPT, super crisp, scaled up. Here it is. I enhanced it. And it's like, that's not the person that you can't use that as like, now let's hunt down this person. That's not what they are at all. And like, God forbid that, that, the person that, that was trained on.

• 1:06:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I found it. It's Brad Pitt. Yes, Brad Pitt has stolen your trailer. Yes.

• 1:07:04Wes Bos?

  AI upscale these images, cause it's just, it's inferring what it thinks they look like. And that drives me nuts when you see it and everybody's like, thank you. Good job. Wow.

• 1:07:14Scott Tolinski?

  Dude, Reddit does that too, like crazy.

• 1:07:15Wes Bos?

  Oh yeah, Reddit, like detectives are awful for that type of stuff.

• 1:07:20Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  Part of it is the AI hype itself. Like all of, all of the AI companies pushing their product in a way that doesn't let people know like what it actually is good at. And there's always that disclaimer. Yeah, always the disclaimer that's like, it can make mistakes. Like don't, you don't always trust this output. And yet, like we've been conditioned at this point to kinda just trust the output.

• 1:07:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah, my favorite meme about that is the, the gif of the guy letting people in at a security event. And he's just like, all right, you in. All right, you in. It's like, that's how we look at the AI code.

• 1:07:55Wes Bos?

  And all the products that are AI as well. Like I saw AI hand warmers the other day. And like, that's just an if statement. If it is this degrees, then turn on, otherwise turn off. That's not AI. That's an if statement.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  I have a, a release about, talking about image generation, I can talk about Quinn Image 2.1.

• 1:08:12Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  So they just released and the thing that I'm excited about is it supports transparency. So no image generation model I've seen so far has been able to output an image.

• 1:08:24Wes Bos?

  ChatGPT's latest one does it.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  It can? Okay, I haven't tried it.

• 1:08:27Wes Bos?

  Finally. Not like the fake one, yeah.

• 1:08:30Speaker 01

  But uh, yeah, this was just cool to see because like so many times, like again, like this is, this is a scenario where you could, like the morals of like, do I, if I use AI to remove the background of my image, is it AI-generated or, or like, does that fall into that camp? I don't know. But like in this case, it was able to remove all of the clouds and the, the sky needle and only leave behind. Like it's almost like a perfect cut. Like you could be really hard pressed to do a, a cut out this perfect, even if you were like really good at Photoshop. I'll have to try that ChatGPT one, cause I'm almost always trying to. Do like move, remove the background, have some transparency and then combine other images together. So.

• 1:09:10Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Or having it like, hey, generate it with a, like a green background and then I'll just composite it out myself later.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:09:17Wes Bos?

  But it's hilarious that most of them still just like give you checkerboards because it's been trained on Google image search of like transparent.

• 1:09:25Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah. If I ever get a checkerboard.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  It trolls you.

• 1:09:28Scott Tolinski?

  It's like, yeah, Google Images search. Yeah.

• 1:09:31Wes Bos?

  That's one thing I'm kind of sad about with all of the stuff is that the people that work on these companies, like there's clearly somebody that works at every one of these companies that's working on transparent PNGs. And they're not, they don't talk, you know, they don't, they're not publishing papers and they're on any of this stuff, you know, they're not coming out and saying, yeah, this is a big problem for us internally. Where, or even the person that got rid of the purple gradient, what's the story? How did you get rid of the purple gradient? You know, like obviously you trained it out of the model, but like, tell me, tell me the story of like.

• 1:10:03Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:10:04Wes Bos?

  What did you do to get rid of it?

• 1:10:05Scott Tolinski?

  Tell us the story. We want that story. Yes. I would love that. If you're out there and you're.

• 1:10:09Wes Bos?

  But they can't admit it. Like can't admit like, hey, our websites were looking like crap and they're just all purple Bernie all day long. So the.

• 1:10:16Scott Tolinski?

  All purple Bernie.

• 1:10:17Wes Bos?

  All of a sudden it's just better.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Okay. I'll just go because it has to do with image generation as well. And it's just a blog post. So the title is AI generated posters don't have to be horrible. And we've talked about this problem on, on the, on syntax live before flyers for festivals and events, and then also like menus being like, you can just tell it was you. Chat GPT was used to generate it. And this post basically just gives you some prompts that you shouldn't use. And so here's some example, like I've seen posters like this around Denver too, like advertising. You can tell that it's like that same chat GPT style illustration. But essentially what they did is they came up with a prompt library of all kinds of different styles. I don't know. I think the people that need to see this post probably aren't watching this video.

• 1:10:58Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  But, but maybe, but maybe share this with the people in your life that are using chat GPT to generate flyers and everything else. Because they, so they released like all these examples of like how that same flyer, you can make it look decent and not look like a chat GPT one. This is a cool one, like contemporary 40s poster for a Cubist exhibition. Like this looks like somebody sat down and you kind of designed the poster versus just generating it. So they have this catalog of poster prompts and these are prompts you can pass into chat GPT and get more interesting flyers than than just the default.

• 1:11:35Wes Bos?

  The summer festival, I think, really opened everybody's eyes to how awful the AI poster is. And like.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Wes Bos?

  I just, I, that's another question I have is like, why? How is this not part of the, the chat GPT product of like, hey, what, what do you think? Here are three different like possible ways we could go.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Wes Bos?

  You know?

• 1:11:57Scott Tolinski?

  No.

• 1:11:57Wes Bos?

  Why? Why is, why are they all so awful like that?

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  I mean, in a way, like I like it because now I know, or I can really tell.

• 1:12:05Wes Bos?

  Maybe that's it.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  It's a fingerprint of sorts.

• 1:12:08Scott Tolinski?

  It is a fingerprint. Yes. Yeah.

• 1:12:10Wes Bos?

  I wanna.

• 1:12:11Scott Tolinski?

  I know. I, yeah, it is funny seeing that all over Switzerland on like mugs and T-shirts and stuff and being like, oh, it's permeated to past posters and it's on T-shirts now. I guess it does indicate which ones are the, the, the dog poop versions of that.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  But I think I'm also just jaded on this style. Like I was watching.

• 1:12:32Scott Tolinski?

  Of course.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  A movie from like 2009 last night and there was a, they were like walking through New York and it was just that classic. 3D font that you get like in Microsoft Word that we used to see everywhere.

• 1:12:45Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, word art. Yes.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  But yeah, word art. Exactly. But that felt like a breath of fresh air. Like we don't see word art anymore. We see this chat GPT slop. So I would much rather.

• 1:12:53Scott Tolinski?

  Word art, folks.

• 1:12:54Wes Bos?

  But the thing is like, we were so jaded about word art when it was, I remember.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Wes Bos?

  We had a poster competition when I was in high school and I spent forever designing the most beautiful. Poster for this thing. And then the one that won used the word art like puzzle piece.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:13:12Wes Bos?

  And I just, and like the little like thinking man, you know, like the black.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:17Wes Bos?

  And like.

• 1:13:18Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:18Wes Bos?

  We've been through this already. It's just like the general public doesn't know any better. And maybe we should just let it go.

• 1:13:24Scott Tolinski?

  All right, guys, I got something to share here. Are we done with this?

• 1:13:26Wes Bos?

  No. Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:13:28Scott Tolinski?

  So we, we've been hearing about a herder or other things as a means of being able to wrangle all of your agents on your different machines and be able to use the terminal and that type of thing. Every single time I talk about herder or this or that, I'm seeing people talk about Orca being an option. And Orca is an app that works for Mac, Windows, Linux, works for everything. And it basically follows that same kind of thing as herder, except for it is a GUI in an app. So you can run your fleet of agents, you get their status, blah, blah, blah. You have actual terms built into the app. So you're using real terms in here instead of.

• 1:14:07Scott Tolinski?

  It being trying to GUI-ify everything. There's automations, there's a built in browser into it. There's Git integration. I've, this is the type of tool that I've started to build a whole bunch myself. I, I will say I have not used this, folks, if you've used Orca in the chat, let us know. I've heard so many people that I respect talk about how much they like this, that I have found myself wanting to give this a rip. Because herder is great, but you know, the two E stuff is only so much fun in some regards. Like I really like the terminal personally for my actual agent stuff. But then the sidebar two E stuff really kind of sucks, I think, at least personally. So I still use herder full time and I really enjoy it.

• 1:14:51Scott Tolinski?

  But I'm going to throw this up today, considering I can just use my, I don't have to like re-log into all my stuff, I don't think.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. It looks dope. Like this is, this is basically the AI everything app. Like you've got a place for your agents, a place for review. If it works, great. Like it also looks like it's just totally open source. They don't even have like a pricing page or anything like that.

• 1:15:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. And they're, and they're why, they're YC now. They weren't before. They're YC now, but it is, you know, it, it is a GitHub project and there's a lot of, you know, 74,000 stars. So it's popular. I just have like finally decided to open this and take it a look. It does use ghosty as the term under the, under the hood, or as Wes says, ghost to T.

• 1:15:32Wes Bos?

  Ghost to T.

• 1:15:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Yeah. Check it out, Orca. Let me know what you think.

• 1:15:37Wes Bos?

  Breaking, breaking news, folks. Grok 4.7 just released about 10, 20 minutes ago. And Grok 4.6, actually I, I am allowed to say this now. I've been using Grok 4.7 for about a week now. I was on their early access program and it's pretty good. They, they got this cursor bench thing, which I always have a hard time trying to decipher what these things are. I guess more is better, but it is, as a sort of a rundown is it feels about as good as like an Opus 5.

• 1:16:14Wes Bos?

  And it's certainly not Fable soul territory, at least from my experience, but the price of it, man, price of it is like half the cost of. Like soul, they're, they're comparing it here against like Fable, which is $10 and this is $2 per million input. And that output token costs $6 versus Fable being 50. I don't know if it's, it's not even in the same realm as like a Fable. Or Astra, but it certainly is in the same realm as Opus, probably not quite as good as soul. But man, I'm, I'm pretty excited about it. It's, it's actually pretty good. And especially for the cost of doing this type of thing. If you just have something where you're like.

• 1:16:54Wes Bos?

  This is not particularly very difficult to, stuff to work on. I just needed to go and rip through a whole bunch of stuff on my computer or. I need to build out a website or find a bug on, on my React, React stuff and all of that type of stuff. This is a pretty good option.

• 1:17:11Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. I haven't really gotten into the Grok models at all. I got too many dang models to try.

• 1:17:15Wes Bos?

  Yeah. There's just so much good stuff out there to possibly try.

• 1:17:20Scott Tolinski?

  And I feel like a lot of them, they, they take a little bit of a, a touch to get to be effective, like, like knowing how to work with Astra versus knowing how to work with Fable. Versus even knowing how to work with Opus or other, you know, so like.

• 1:17:33Wes Bos?

  Which model's good at what? Like 3D, that's got, you probably know this, but like the latest models, like both Fable and why am I forgetting it?

• 1:17:42Scott Tolinski?

  Astra. Yeah.

• 1:17:43Wes Bos?

  Fable and Astra, amazing at 3D.

• 1:17:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Did a really good job.

• 1:17:47Wes Bos?

  Grok 4.7 not as good as, at 3D, but if you're not doing 3D modeling, that might not matter.

• 1:17:53Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah. I found Astra to even be better too, personally.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Is there pricing? Like, do they have a similar like $100 a month, like usage limit kind of thing? Or is it all API usage?

• 1:18:04Wes Bos?

  No, you get like, you get like a cursor subscription. So you get the like $100 or $200 a month cursor subscription, which is quite honestly, one of the, the better. Deals right now because it comes with access to all of these other APIs. However, you can't get Astra on cursor right now because.

• 1:18:24Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, that's a.

• 1:18:25Wes Bos?

  Yeah. They don't get along. And like I, I bet it's only a matter of time that you can't get all the other models on cursor. But will that matter is like when they release Grok 5 or Grok 6, you know, like you, you got to imagine that they're, they've been training. Their Fable competitor for quite a while, because look, Grok 4.6 only came out a little while ago. And then Grok 4.7 is just larger and, and trained for longer. So you got to imagine that they're cooking. They're, they're big boy right now as well. Same thing with like Google. Like where's the Google one? Where's the, where's the, the Microsoft one? We're waiting on that.

• 1:19:04Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Gemini was a deep SWE, which is like the, the one benchmark that everybody was saying was the very best. Gemini 3.8 flash scored extremely well on that benchmark and it got everybody very confused by it, although I still haven't used it. So I don't, I don't have any thoughts on that model whatsoever.

• 1:19:22Wes Bos?

  It's just a flash model though, you know?

• 1:19:24Scott Tolinski?

  I know. Yes. I just look at the.

• 1:19:25Wes Bos?

  It's still is pretty good for a flash model. Maybe everyone wrote it off because it's a flash model.

• 1:19:29Scott Tolinski?

  I don't know anything about Gemini 3.8 flash. There's, there's too many dang things to, to get on hold of, you know?

• 1:19:37Wes Bos?

  I bet. Yeah. We're, we're going to GitHub universe and we don't know anything. Sometimes we know things, we're not allowed to say them, but I'll tell you right now, I don't know anything. But do you think, you think Microsoft?

• 1:19:48Scott Tolinski?

  We want to know some stuff. Yeah.

• 1:19:49Wes Bos?

  They're going to release, to be fair, I do know when things are happening, but I do know that I have heard nothing yet. But do you think GitHub universe are going to release like a Microsoft AI, like their Fable competitor, their Astra competitor? You think so?

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Is that the event to do it at? Would it instead be at like Microsoft build?

• 1:20:08Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I feel like it could be at Microsoft.

• 1:20:09Wes Bos?

  When is Microsoft build?

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  It's not, it's not till next year because they do, they do it every summer.

• 1:20:13Wes Bos?

  Yeah, that's, you can't wait nine months to release a model right now.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  True. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if I'd even take that back because I have no information. So.

• 1:20:23Scott Tolinski?

  I wouldn't say no. My bet is no, because I want to just take a different stance and I'll put money on it, folks.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 1:20:30Wes Bos?

  But like, Microsoft AI came out almost two months ago right now and they released four models, you know, and they're all pretty decent. They have an image generation model. They have a flash, a really good flash model, but they didn't release their big boy. And you got to think like, they have it, but it's just like, if they're going to release it, it's got to be as good as, as the big boys right now.

• 1:20:54Scott Tolinski?

  Can it top Jev?

• 1:20:55Wes Bos?

  Can it? Yeah. Or Jev, go the other way. Maybe, maybe we're, we're wrong in, in trying to go for the big boy models. Just give us a Jev and we'll be happy. That's all I got for today.

• 1:21:06Scott Tolinski?

  Just give us a Jev and we'll all be happy. Uh, folks, what are you doing with Jev? I want to know what you're doing with Jev. Is it actually working out well for you? Is it not? What are you doing? What are you classifying? I'm classifying all kinds of stuff. Suddenly everything is a classified shape hole that I can put a key into. So yes. I don't got anything else, guys. Anybody else got anything before we get out of here?

• 1:21:25Wes Bos?

  That's it.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:27Scott Tolinski?

  Okay. So check us out, Syntax Live. Uh, we're going to be at Bear Bottle Brewing Co. When? Wes?

• 1:21:34Wes Bos?

  Uh, October 27th. Okay. Scott, I don't let, let me see.

• 1:21:40Scott Tolinski?

  You've got to be ready.

• 1:21:40Wes Bos?

  27th, Bear Bottle Brewing, syntax.fm forward slash meetup. Grab your tickets. It's free, but you got to reserve your spot. We got some pretty sick wag coming on the way too. Are going to be given out there.

• 1:21:51Scott Tolinski?

  And check out Sentry as well, sentry.io. We will catch you in the next one, folks.

• 1:21:55Wes Bos?

  Peace.