Episode 354

In 2022, when 57-year-old Harold Allen was found dead in his Indiana home, the case was ruled natural. Nearly a year later, a brazen burglary and a string of buried messages bring detectives back to the same address and to Marsha Allen, the woman who said she loved him. What starts as a property crime becomes a chilling reexamination of Harold’s final days, as small-town routines, late-night deliveries, and a quiet house of secrets point to something far darker. No one is ready for where the evidence leads or what it costs. Get instant access to all episodes, including premium unreleased episodes, commercial-free at swordandscale.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fortability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power

• 0:43Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  We got a call. We got a check under welfare. I'm at her home, and she's passed away. What? She's, she passed away.

• 2:16Mike Boudet?

  It's mid-September 2023. Fifty-two-year-old widow Marcia Allen is away from her home in Freetown, Indiana. She's on a trip to Gatlinburg, Pigeon Forge, Tennessee with her parents. She leaves on Saturday, planning to return a week later on the following Saturday. Before the trip, she does something she's been wanting to do for a while. She installs cameras. She buys the system herself from Walmart and keeps it quiet. She wants to watch the house while she's away, mostly to keep an eye on her cats and because she feels unsafe since her husband died about a year ago.

• 3:00Mike Boudet?

  She gets them because she's never left her cats alone that long, and she has a bad feeling in the gut of her stomach, so she wants to be able to check in on her pets wherever she is.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  I've never left my cats alone for that long before, and I had a bad feeling. I thought maybe one of them would have died or something, and I felt bad if I didn't know about it. And I got them to keep an eye on my cats. I'm still scared, and so I got the security surveillance cameras because every time I hear a noise, I jump. Every, I look at all outside cameras, or even go outside of the door, because I don't want anybody to come up and jump at me.

• 3:38Speaker 05

  Right. Okay. And you can watch it on your phone, and you were actually out of town.

• 3:45Speaker 04

  I went to Tennessee, Pigeon Forge, because it's mom and dad's anniversary, and they wanted to go, and I knew I was going to start going to work, and they didn't take them that long, because dad's getting adventurous, so I took them.

• 4:02Mike Boudet?

  Marcia has already lost her husband, and she was in that phase of life where you're not sure how much longer your parents are going to be around. Starting to get there myself, it's not a good feeling.

• 4:16Mike Boudet?

  She notes that her dad has dementia and it was their anniversary. She's a good daughter. On her parents' couch, she scrolls through the camera app. Suddenly, there's a ping. Then, another. The AI in the app is able to determine that there is a person in view. But no one should be inside her house. She nervously taps the first click and the view of the camera pops up on her phone. A shape slides across the frame. She pinches to zoom. Then, another alert lands. Another clip queues. Her thumb keeps moving. Save, save, save.

• 5:01Mike Boudet?

  She starts counting and she'll end up with 22 videos by the time this is over. One of them is nearly five minutes long. Obviously, she's in a state of panic. As she stares at her phone, there are two adult males wearing hoodies and moving towards her safe. And in that longer clip, a face suddenly turns towards the camera. She watches more. The timestamps move towards 6 o'clock. A door that should be shut swings open and a view shifts down a hall she knows by heart. She studies the intruder's hands and clothing.

• 5:44Mike Boudet?

  The face flashes again, making her stomach drop.

• 5:50Mike Boudet?

  She recognizes it this time and says the name out loud. Her eyes fixed on what she's seeing. She calls the sheriff's office and says where she is and what the app is sending, along with how many clips she has of the break-in. She texts and emails what she can and then keeps the live view open to keep watching.

• 6:16Mike Boudet?

  Inside the house, drawers open and shut. In one camera angle, she sees the safe and catches her breath. She knows the sound that the safe makes when it opens. The live feed hiccups, then streams again. A second figure passes through a doorway. She listens for anything: footsteps, a scrape, anything she can tell deputies later. Then, around 6:00 PM, everything suddenly stops. The stream freezes up and drops. No more alerts, no more clips. She refreshes. Nothing. She switches to another camera. Nothing.

• 6:59Mike Boudet?

  She knows this means someone must have unplugged the router. She stares at the blank screen. The safe is massive, and she thinks about what's inside. Family rings, collectibles, and dozens of firearms kept for years. She starts a list in her head. She writes it down. She tells herself she can pull serial numbers when she gets home. And then she calls the sheriff's office again to make sure they got the videos. She tells her parents she needs to go back early.

• 7:32Speaker 06

  Okay, so...

• 7:34Speaker 04

  Did you get all the videos? I sent you 22.

• 7:36Speaker 06

  I'm not sure if I got 22, but I got a lot of them.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  It's like...

• 7:39Speaker 06

  And I don't, I'm not sure that I've been all the way through all of them, but...

• 7:43Speaker 04

  Well, the five that it shows, Stephen's face, full face.

• 7:47Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  And what cracks me up is he looked in the bedroom and he saw the camera, but the other guy distracted him and he forgot all about it.

• 7:57Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm. And, um, you called into the sheriff's department yesterday evening? Okay. And, so, do you think the other guy's Nathaniel?

• 8:07Speaker 04

  I do, because I know his voice, and it sounds like his voice.

• 8:13Mike Boudet?

  She only recognizes the voice of one of the suspects. But the other? She saw his face and put a name to it. Steven White. Deputies find him outside in the driveway at his parents' place in Scott County. The officer took Steven away from the house to a garage, where his maroon four-door sedan sat. Wearing a gray t-shirt and dark sweatpants, Steven presented as nonchalant, smoking a cigarette and waving his arms as he spoke with an open posture. After having his rights read to him, he gestured for his dog Hank to move along. And then, he took off running.

• 8:58Mike Boudet?

  Not running with his legs, so much as his mouth.

• 9:03Speaker 05

  So do you understand your rights? Yes, sir. Okay. Hank, gone. So you have any idea why we're here today? Well, they said the cell got me on camera last night burglarizing the place. Okay. So you need to... And my husband. If that's the case, you know anything about it? No. Okay. My husband and I sat up last night till about 4 o'clock in the morning watching Nope. He's off work today. He works at Gym Pass. Started the movie a couple of weeks ago, haven't had time to finish it. I personally think I have strep or something. Been running a fever. My tongue is all swollen and sore and my mouth is red and white, so let y'all know that. I've been having diarrhea, shits all night. And our kids went to school this morning.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  And that was about it. I stood up on the balcony and said bye to the kids so they don't get sick. They're at school right now.

• 9:56Mike Boudet?

  Steven may have been sick and his kids may have been at school right now, but that didn't account for earlier that morning. The officer went on to tell him that he and possibly his husband had been positively ID'd in the video.

• 10:15Speaker 05

  You know, I've been a police officer for a minute, alright? And one lie always leads to a second lie. Second lie. And then a third lie and a fourth lie. And it's gonna make it look a hell of a lot worse, alright? Sam. And it'll save embarrassment whenever I show the video or show the pictures and you're like, well, you know, what can I say to that? Because. I'll come to see the video. Okay, I do too. Because I've got three. I got a picture here.

• 10:41Mike Boudet?

  So the officer showed him the picture.

• 10:43Speaker 05

  And I really do not have. A hat. I don't even have a fucking hat. What about the car? Or the car that you're in there? This is my car. Somebody fucking stole it from me on Sunday night. And how'd you get it back then? Because I filed a police report and we found it over here, but I had three keys for this. And I had my one set of keys in there. The other key, I'm putting this in my shit somewhere. So listen. I have my second. So, so listen. I just want you, want you to know, okay? That there's more than just that picture. Alright?

• 11:20Mike Boudet?

  He went on to explain that the most important thing was to return the stolen items to the owner. And if the owner was happy, Stephen might avoid charges.

• 11:29Speaker 05

  We either get the stuff back, or I think you know probably what's coming. You just go to fucking jail and set and rot. You get the stuff back and go to jail and set and rot.

• 11:39Mike Boudet?

  Stephen was ready to talk. Some more, that is.

• 11:43Speaker 05

  I'll smoke another cigarette. I'll spend the whole thing. It's ugly. Because that lady is the lady who told me to go get the shit. Her name's Marsha Buxton. And she asked me to go get that shit because her husband, Harold Allen, passed away in December. Okay. And according to her, um, she needed that life insurance money. But she did not get that life insurance money because the policy was set to go to his brother. How old is the lady that you're talking about? Marsha Buxton?

• 12:19Speaker 05

  Um, fifty, fifty, fifty one? Does she live there? Yeah. And that house, she got it because whenever she married the man. You know where it's at? Signed, uh, Free Town, I reckon. She gave me an address. She said, hey, I need you to go up in here. I need to grab someone and go up in here and just come and meet this dude up there. Mm-hmm. And I did. And I went over there. She wanted us to get rid of it. And it's fu- this woman has hated me for years, but I'm best friends with her daughter.

• 12:53Mike Boudet?

  She needed the life insurance money, but Harold's death certificate said he died of natural causes. He'd had a heart condition that was getting worse in the weeks before he died. It happened at about 2:00 in the afternoon on December 20th, the previous year.

• 13:10Speaker 05

  911.

• 13:11Speaker 07

  Yeah, this is 3287 North State Road 135. My husband, our bedroom floor, he's non-responsive and I need him to be released.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  Okay, what's your address again?

• 13:24Speaker 07

  3287 North State Road 135.

• 13:30Speaker 05

  Okay. How old is he?

• 13:34Speaker 07

  He is 15, uh, he's 52.

• 13:39Speaker 05

  Okay. Did you find him like that?

• 13:43Speaker 07

  Yeah, um, I worked from home and I went back there to check on him because he's been sick. And then I went back there, he was just laying on the floor, like he was trying to get up and go back to his room, and he's not breathing.

• 13:57Speaker 05

  Okay. Do you want to start CPR if I help you?

• 14:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, I could, I could do that.

• 14:05Speaker 05

  Okay. You just do your CPR and you keep me on speaker, okay?

• 14:13Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:15Mike Boudet?

  Marcia called for a medical emergency. Her husband was dying, or likely already dead. But this was anything but a natural death. Sure, the medical report read cardiovascular disease, calcifying constructive pericarditis, severe coronary atherosclerosis of the left anterior descending artery. But his death was way more complicated than all of those big, complicated, fancy words. It was murder. Someone had murdered Harold Allen.

• 15:22Mike Boudet?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Fortability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on the off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and long-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventures, and the rugged style for everything in between. Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus available hybrid power

• 16:05Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave a lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. ShopToyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 16:36Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  And while there are challenges, there are more. Moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  ChatGPT for teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 18:14Mike Boudet?

  Fifty-two-year-old Marsha Allen was out of town in Gatlinburg, Tennessee with her parents while cameras monitoring her home in Freetown, Indiana started sending alerts about motion inside her house that shouldn't have existed. She saved 22 clips and around six o'clock, the feed suddenly went dead. She called police, turned the videos over, and gave a name. It was someone she recognized, a friend of her daughter, Ashley. When officers tracked the burglar down, he gave them far more information than they were ready for, accusing Marcia herself of staging the burglary while she was out of town.

• 19:00Mike Boudet?

  He claimed that she directed him to pick up a guy named Richard on that very date and carry out the heist. According to Steven, she was upset that she didn't receive the life insurance money she was entitled to after her husband died. She was upset that it went to her brother-in-law instead. Now, she was afraid her brother-in-law was gonna take the only inheritance she had left: a safe full of jewelry and expensive guns, so instead, she would have her daughter's friend Steven, who already had a criminal history, steal them, sell them, and give her the proceeds while taking a cut for himself.

• 19:41Mike Boudet?

  But the story was growing a bit out of control, as you'll soon learn.

• 19:46Speaker 05

  She told me, and I already deleted all the messages, like she asked me to say. "I'll give you $3,000. You can go to my house. Give me the safe code." Marsha did, or Asha did? Yes, Marsha did. She said, "You go down there, you can get this, and I need it all taken somewhere, please, because his brother is trying to get into my house and they wanna take me to court and take all of Harold's guns and everything." I said, "Marsha, I'm a felon, I cannot have guns. Right now, I'm sick of shit. I'm really sick shit was on my way to the doctor." Because I told her, "Listen, bitch, I'm pardon my French."

• 20:25Mike Boudet?

  No, you're fine.

• 20:26Speaker 05

  But I said, "Listen, bitch, I'm not fucking... I got two kids. My husband is schizophrenic, my dad is running a fire. We got a lot of shit going on. I am not about to drive guns across this town. If you have shit with antique, so be it. I don't want no bullets and no load of fucking weapons in my car." And she took everything apart and she set everything exactly where it was supposed to fucking go. And I got what I could get, and she told me to go on Monday night and Tuesday night. It sounds to me like she set me up real quick.

• 21:00Mike Boudet?

  Steven, being the sassy-ass bitch that he is, was a felon and couldn't be caught with weapons. Also, he had a lot going on, clearly. A lot of problems, issues, kind of a fucked-up life already, it sounds like. But in the same breath, he said he did it anyway.

• 21:20Speaker 05

  Her exact words: "I want to see you removed from the house before I get back from Tennessee and set up my cameras."

• 21:27Speaker 05

  Because I need to be able to tell his brothers that all these things were gone because they're mine and I don't want them to try to fight me in court over it. Over an inherit- you know what? Right, this was all done through text? Yeah, from a text now number that she had.

• 21:45Mike Boudet?

  Steven already admitted that Marcia hated him. Apparently, she was a racist who didn't like him and blamed him in some way for coming between her and her daughter. Allegedly, that is. So, was she setting him up? Or did she just want the inheritance she felt she deserved and knew he could get it for? Or was it even Marcia that texted him in the first place?

• 22:14Speaker 05

  Are you sure that Ashley's not the one that messaged you to go do that? I'm not. Because the information that we have or that we're getting could be a little bit conflicting on that part. Like Ashley, and if it is Ashley, just tell me what's happened. No, I'm not. I'm really not sure if it's Ashley or Marcia, that's the thing. They're getting like this, a little fucking lot.

• 22:35Speaker 06

  But do you have, add your phone, is it labeled as Ashley if she was to text you?

• 22:41Speaker 05

  No, not at all. But the person that texted this is Marcia? Well, she called me on my text now number. Sign your paper, I said, "Who is this?" And I got a call from a text now number. This has been, fucking, a couple of months ago.

• 22:56Speaker 06

  And then it was supposed to go down on this day?

• 22:59Speaker 05

  Yes, pretty sure. Because it was text now, the call was on text now, but to be honest with you, Marcia and Ashley look just alike, sound just alike, dress just alike, they're the same kind of psychopath.

• 23:10Mike Boudet?

  Now, in case you don't know, Text Now is an app that allows you to text people from an anonymous number. It wasn't sure if it was Marcia or Ashley, but whoever was on the other end of the phone wasn't finished giving orders.

• 23:26Speaker 05

  And tonight, I was supposed to go back and completely do it. So I'm gonna burn the house down because apparently when she was young, she burnt her house down in Deputy. She burnt her house down in Deputy? Yeah, she took her five-year-old daughter to her grandparents, burnt the house down in Deputy. But you were supposed to go back tonight and burn the house down? Yeah, I wasn't gonna burn that damn house down. I'm not doing that. I was like, look, I'm not gonna do that. So if you don't burn it down, you need to make it look like you've broken in there and make it look vandalized so I can get the insurance money.

• 23:57Mike Boudet?

  Stephen's accusations were getting wild, and he wasn't stopping.

• 24:02Speaker 05

  This woman has hated me for years, but I'm best friends with her daughter. Okay, what's the daughter's name? Ashley Jones. Okay. Um, I'm just saying, you're being awful truthful with us. I am, I'm telling you, I'm a truth. Because this woman's a fucking murderer. To be, you know, contradicted by this woman. This woman is a fucking murderer, okay? I know that. I have not gone to nobody and said anything because I don't have no fucking proof on it. This woman's a psychopath, and I'm telling you guys that right now. Harold Allen was her husband. Set a life insurance policy for him, went and married him. I don't know when she married him because since I've left, I've been away from him. This woman straight came into my house one day and slapped me across the face and told me,

• 24:44Speaker 05

  at 26-years-old, and told me if I ever talked to her daughter again, that she was gonna kill me. I better watch, you better watch your fucking foot. I was right up there at the house, I had, I was like, what the fuck? So was there any? She got in her little car and she dipped off and left.

• 24:58Mike Boudet?

  Well, that was a fun little story. The kind of Lifetime movie someone of Harold's demographic would just eat right up. It's important to state that as far as we know, and as far as the police know, Harold Allen died of natural causes, and all this verbocity about murder was just nonsense. What they did know was that this very vocal character was caught in the act of burglarizing Marcia's home on camera. And now he's got a whole lot of stories about what other people did instead. What about-ism, they call it.

• 25:36Speaker 05

  But Marcia's not stupid. Here's what I do know. Cause she done killed her husband and her mother-in-law and gone away with that shit. So here's what I do know. And I do know how that happened too. And if you need me to ask these guys to go move to like inside or go somewhere else. But what I do know is that we need that stuff back.

• 25:55Mike Boudet?

  Now, it was Marcia who not only killed her husband, but also her mother-in-law as well. Right. If it were only that easy. They recovered the property and interviewed Marcia the next day. So detectives could pin down the how and who behind the heist.

• 26:15Speaker 06

  I'll tell you that we recovered these rings we made to the rest in this case.

• 26:23Mike Boudet?

  That would be Steven White, the other guy. Marcia only recognized Steven because according to Marcia, he was too stupid to cover his face. And he ran his mouth the whole time. She recognized the other man's voice and would later learn that he was a longtime friend of Steven's.

• 26:41Speaker 04

  If you could get his phone, I can, I guarantee it's gonna be my daughter and you texting him that combination to that safe.

• 26:47Speaker 06

  Um, so, and I was gonna ask you a little bit more about that too.

• 26:51Speaker 04

  Three people in the world knew that safe is me, my husband and my daughter.

• 26:58Mike Boudet?

  Only one name was linked to both the family and the suspect. And that was Marcia's daughter, Ashley Jones, a friend of Steven White. She knew the players, she knew the layout, and she knew the safe's code. Plus, she was smart. Well, relatively. Logic solved the mystery. It was actually no mystery at all. The real mystery was connected to Harold's death. This is the detective who led that case.

• 27:34Speaker 05

  My name's Adam Nicholson and I have two decades of experience in law enforcement, at least, and all that's been right here in Indiana at the Jackson County Sheriff's Department. I've worked patrol for most of my career and then in 2019 was promoted to lieutenant. And if the detective division would receive a big case such as this one that we're talking about, then I would step over to kind of help them, guide them with it. And this one just kind of worked out to where I ended up being the lead investigator on it because we had had another murder within probably six months of this one. So this kind of was

• 28:16Speaker 05

  up my alley, you know, one of the things I like to do, the putting pieces together, facts, patterns, the human behavior.

• 28:24Mike Boudet?

  Adam remembered that Harold Allen was someone that everyone seemed to like.

• 28:29Speaker 05

  Through the, you know, the investigation of talking to family and friends and coworkers, I mean, everybody basically said the exact same thing. Like, he was a very caring, loving man. He was a good, good husband, loved his wife. Everybody at his work, you know, enjoyed being around him and nobody had any complaints about him at all. And like, everybody was really just sad for him, you know, like, because they could only imagine what he had been through. And, but yeah, no ill words or anything about the guy. He was, just everybody thought he was super.

• 29:06Mike Boudet?

  And here's what a friend said about Harold on his memory page.

• 29:10Speaker 07

  I'm heartbroken by Harold's passing. He was a wise mentor and very skilled teacher to me, although he was too humble to admit it. Harold was always giving me advice both professionally and about life in general. I continue to follow his guidance to this day. He could be rough around the edges, but you'd quickly realize that he was the most kind and most caring person you would ever meet. I find comfort knowing that he found love and met his wife, Marcia, who he spoke often and fondly of. My deepest condolences to you and your family.

• 29:47Mike Boudet?

  Everyone who knew Harold praised him and believed he died of a heart condition. But back in the interview room, the detective was about to rip that apart with Stephen's accusations, starting with Marcia's alleged involvement in the burglary.

• 30:02Speaker 06

  And this is where it gets interesting, okay? And I'm gonna go ahead and make sure you understand this. Some of this is gonna be accusatory towards you, because this is what he said. Okay? So, you're not under arrest. You are free to leave anytime you want. But I just wanna make sure you understand that he's accusing you of some stuff, too. So, here's what he says. And I may have, it was a lot. So, if I get some of it wrong, I apologize. But, so he says that he received a call from a text now number. And he says that it was back in, I think he said like in May or June.

• 30:47Speaker 06

  So, it'd been a couple of months ago. And that, basically, it was a female on the other side. He thought it was, he said he thought it was you. But I think he may have said something to the effect that you and Ashley sounded alike, so it could have been Ashley. And he said that, basically, something to the effect, and I could get some of the facts wrong in this, but something to the effect that all these guns, something about when your husband passed away, that all these guns, maybe some family members were wanting them or something.

• 31:25Speaker 06

  Well, what he's saying is, basically, that you said that you would give him $3,000 to go in the house and take the guns, have him take the guns and take them back to his place.

• 31:38Speaker 04

  He's a liar. I did not do that.

• 31:40Speaker 06

  Okay. And he also said something about, something about burning down the house.

• 31:47Speaker 04

  What?

• 31:48Speaker 06

  Burning down your house.

• 31:49Speaker 04

  He better not.

• 31:51Speaker 06

  I don't know if he was saying he was going to. I don't, I would have to go back, because I recorded the whole interview.

• 31:56Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 31:57Speaker 06

  I have to go back to see exactly what he said. Because there was a lot that he said.

• 32:02Mike Boudet?

  He wasn't exaggerating, and she was not prepared for what came next.

• 32:06Speaker 06

  I'll tell you what else he said. He accused you of murdering your husband.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  I did not murder my husband.

• 32:15Speaker 06

  Okay, something to the effect of some kind of, I don't know, some kind of seeds or something, basically poisoning, poisoning his drink.

• 32:25Speaker 04

  Then we'd show an toxicology report if that happened.

• 32:27Speaker 06

  And was there an autopsy done?

• 32:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:30Speaker 06

  There was an autopsy?

• 32:30Speaker 04

  Autopsy and toxicology. He died because he had pericarditis that was undetected.

• 32:36Speaker 06

  He had what?

• 32:37Speaker 04

  Pericarditis, it's the inflammation, the pericard, heart has pericardium around it, the lining of the heart, that protects the heart when it beats. It went undetected, so it went on so long that the pericardium around the heart hardened and it stopped his heart. And he had a little bit of blocked arteries. That's in the autopsy report.

• 32:59Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 33:00Mike Boudet?

  Well, if that's what the autopsy said, that's what it said. But she was still being accused of setting up the burglary.

• 33:08Speaker 06

  Do you, because I don't know, and I haven't been able to talk to her yet, do you think Ashley would have, I mean, because you said that only three people-

• 33:16Speaker 04

  Because the victims are worth a lot of money.

• 33:18Speaker 06

  Do you think Ashley would have had something to do with this?

• 33:21Speaker 04

  She had to. She's the only one other than me would do the combination, and I would never give it up to anybody, ever.

• 33:29Mike Boudet?

  Ashley and her fiance had lived with Marcia and Harold for a while, but now Ashley was living in Missouri. The only way to get to the bottom of this was to call her. At the same time, detectives scoured Steven White's phone and found some shocking evidence, messages between Ashley and him that confirmed the burglary conspiracy. This is a montage of some of the things Ashley said.

• 33:56Speaker 07

  I do have access next week to her home with a lot to steal and sell. It would be as simple as, I load the truck, you go sell it, we look for more, rinse, repeat. I mean, a hundred K worth of guns, lol. I already stole my guns to keep. She owes me. I'm about to grab the coins too. I just get her out of the house. He only has A, D, and D, and it will not pay out for natural causes. Only thing they can do is say, yeah, you don't get it, or where do I send the 200K? Lol.

• 34:30Mike Boudet?

  This was enough to bring Ashley in from Missouri for questioning. Meanwhile detectives had access to Stevens and Marcia's phones. The case went quiet for a few weeks. What surfaced wasn't another clip or a rumor. It was an online order by Ashley with a shipping label in the family name, Lynn Allen, all pointing to the Free Town address with dates, size, and price attached. And the item in the center of those records hinted at a much larger crime. Was Steven telling the truth? The burglary thread had become a lead.

• 35:11Mike Boudet?

  The paper trail pointed back to Harold and to his murder. When Marcia returned on October 16th, the first question was the order. Who bought it? Where was it shipped? And what phone number was on it? The detective shows her the paperwork.

• 35:34Speaker 06

  So it was ordered through a place that was called Kimboy's LLC.

• 35:39Speaker 04

  What's that?

• 35:40Speaker 06

  It's some company that was definitely like what it was ordered from. Says the order source was Peach Pay, so it was paid through Peach Pay. Do you have a Peach Pay account or anything?

• 35:51Speaker 04

  I know what Peach Pay is.

• 35:52Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 35:54Mike Boudet?

  Even though the order was sent to Lynn Allen, the address is Marcia's.

• 35:59Speaker 06

  See what I'm talking about? Where it says it's billing to Lynn Allen? That's your address, right? 3287 State Road 135. Says shipping Lynn Allen and your address again. The phone number that's associated with that, 812-521-2671. Is that Ashley's number?

• 36:17Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 36:19Mike Boudet?

  The next day, they sat face to face with Marcia's daughter, Ashley. While Marcia was fairly animated, facial expressions, a tone of voice that suggested disbelief or curiosity, Ashley was extremely subdued and poised, almost quietly defiant.

• 36:38Speaker 06

  We're not going to talk to you about burglary, okay? That's not what we're here to talk about.

• 36:45Speaker 06

  We actually, we talked to your mom yesterday for four or five hours. We had to talk to her about some things. She answered some questions for us. So we were gonna talk to you about some of that, okay? Before we do that, I am gonna read you your rights, because you're in custody. All right. Make sure you understand that. A lot of what we talked about was about the death of Harold. We had some text messages from your mom's phone. She can send it to a download. And there was some text messages on there that we had some concern about. The meaning of those text messages.

• 37:26Speaker 06

  And we have an order where some ethylene glycol was ordered on December 13th, I think it was. December 13th, December 14th. The ethylene glycol arrived at the address of your mom's, out in Freetown. 3287 North, State Road 135, on December 19th. On December 20th, your Harold ended up passing away. Do you know anything about the ethylene glycol? No, sir.

• 38:00Mike Boudet?

  Ah, ethylene glycol, otherwise known as antifreeze. It's a sweet tasting substance that you can sneak into your hubby's drink. And the best part is, he won't even notice until he's dead. I guess he won't notice when he's dead either. In any case, it's the murder weapon of choice for those who don't like guns. You know, women, for the most part. The detective had screenshots of the ethylene glycol order being sent to that address under the name Lynn Allen. This was Marcia's middle and last name. They also had messages from Ashley to her mother asking for money for this particular order.

• 38:44Mike Boudet?

  According to Marcia, she knew nothing about it. It was Christmas time. Ashley, her fiance, who was also named Ashley, and the kids were all living there, and packages were just flooding in. Who can keep track?

• 38:59Speaker 04

  At least 10 packages a day coming back from here.

• 39:02Speaker 05

  I understand, but there was only one thing of ethylene glycol.

• 39:05Speaker 04

  Right.

• 39:06Speaker 05

  There's a lot of packages that probably come, it's Christmas time, I get that. I mean, we do the same thing I did. I'd rather shop online than go to a busy store. But I would remember a thing of ethylene glycol coming to my house if I got it. The day that it does come, which is the 19th, and we know what day it was delivered, we have the tracking number, there's a message from Ashley saying, "We have a delivery."

• 39:39Mike Boudet?

  The focus closed in on mother and daughter. One bought the poison and used it on Harold. Did the other know? Did the other help?

• 39:51Speaker 06

  So, you know, and part of this stems from also, from, you know, talking to somebody who gave us some information and saying that Harold, the information we got was Harold did not die of natural causes, basically that he was poisoned.

• 40:07Speaker 04

  Really?

• 40:08Speaker 06

  Yes. So, when we follow up on that, and we get these, your mom consents to the phone number, and we get all these text messages, and we start going through these text messages, and it's between you and your mom, right? And, like I said, one of the things, just one, there's a lot of them. One of them is on December 13th, December 14th, around that timeframe, ethylene glycol was ordered. I think you texted to your mom, if I remember correctly, and that tracking number matches the same tracking number that he was, our other detective was able to get of the ethylene glycol that arrived at the house on December 19th.

• 40:52Speaker 06

  Information we received was that there was root beer floats that were made. It was put into the root beer float and that Harold drinks it. And obviously, the end result was that he died.

• 41:08Mike Boudet?

  Marcia denied having any involvement in the poisoning. She denied everything while her own daughter continued to point the finger at her in her calm, unbothered tone of voice.

• 41:19Speaker 05

  Do you know that your mom did something that she probably really shouldn't have done? I mean, your mom told us quite a bit yesterday, so... You know that... Actually, I mean, do you think your mom's capable of doing something like that? I mean...

• 41:38Speaker 04

  I don't know that she did, but, I mean, she's capable of whatever. She's very intelligent.

• 41:49Mike Boudet?

  If Marcia was intelligent, Ashley was a genius. I'm being somewhat facetious here. Detectives had already confirmed that Marcia had nothing to do with the burglary. Ashley felt cheated out of her share of Harold's life insurance and she was gonna recoup in whatever way she could. Still, detectives pressed on with Marcia.

• 42:14Speaker 05

  This is the word and the same day that this is delivered, there's root beer floats. And then the very next day, Harold's dead.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  I did not kill him.

• 42:27Speaker 05

  Who did?

• 42:29Speaker 04

  As far as I know, he has heart condition, did.

• 42:32Speaker 06

  Okay. Let's... We get the results back?

• 42:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 06

  And it says there's ethylene glycol in his system. How did that get there?

• 42:41Speaker 04

  I do not know.

• 42:42Speaker 06

  If you didn't know anything about it, how did that happen?

• 42:45Speaker 04

  We both made the root beer floats, so I did not put anything in anyone's drink. I didn't even know we had anything like that there.

• 42:54Speaker 06

  Is there ever a chance when Ashley could've put something in there?

• 42:58Speaker 04

  I have no idea. She... She lived me.

• 43:01Speaker 06

  Did you watch her so...

• 43:02Speaker 04

  No, I did not watch her, no.

• 43:03Speaker 06

  That's what I'm asking.

• 43:04Speaker 04

  I did not watch her the whole time, no I did not.

• 43:08Mike Boudet?

  Marcia was aware that Ashley was growing marijuana in the house. Okay, no big deal in 2026, I guess. But that wasn't the only botany Ashley was experimenting with. She was also into all sorts of new age domestic white woman horseshit like saging and cleansing, amulets and crystals, demons and things that would attach themselves to people, even convincing Marcia that something evil had attached itself to Harold. Not because he was unkind, abusive, or controlling, but because he was sick a lot. Surely that meant he had some sort of demon attached to him. And it was no wonder Harold was sick a lot.

• 43:54Mike Boudet?

  He did have a heart condition, after all. But was it natural? Or was it because he was slowly being poisoned from the time Ashley temporarily moved in months before his death? Marcia remembered Ashley asking strange questions about poison plants under the umbrella of good parenting. According to Ashley, she wanted to know which poisonous plants surrounded the house. You know, so she could tell her little girl what to avoid.

• 44:24Speaker 05

  So looking back on all that.

• 44:26Speaker 04

  She asked me stuff like, what plants, you know, I watch out for because Violet's outside playing. I don't want to get hurt. She tries to eat something because Violet sticks everything in her mouth still.

• 44:42Speaker 05

  Say that again, she would say like.

• 44:45Speaker 04

  I don't know what the poisonous plants were around the region. So she would make sure Violet didn't get into it and stuff. Violet has a, um,

• 44:58Speaker 04

  problems issues of preemies. Her kidneys didn't develop properly. And if Violet gets around certain things, she gets sick or she breaks up houses and she can't, has to have emergency doses of steroids because her body doesn't produce the response to fuck things.

• 45:18Speaker 05

  Had she ever gotten into anything like that before?

• 45:21Speaker 04

  She has, and she had an ER, she ended up on steroids.

• 45:27Mike Boudet?

  Hmm, foxglove seeds? Is she a witch? Does she float? I'm starting to think the Salem witch trials weren't such a bad idea. The foxglove plant is native to North America and grows in shady, damp areas. If ingested, it causes dangerous heart arrhythmias. It can lead to death.

• 45:48Speaker 06

  Foxglove seeds is talked about.

• 45:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, she has known about that crap all the time. Course I never thought about it.

• 45:57Mike Boudet?

  But maybe she did think about it.

• 46:00Speaker 05

  When he went to the hospital? Does he went to the hospital twice, I think? ER maybe once or twice. Face was numb.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:08Speaker 05

  Um, bleeding, anal bleeding actually, I think. Um, diarrhea, all that kind of stuff.

• 46:16Speaker 04

  She told me he just had the treatment face and thrown out.

• 46:20Speaker 05

  Well, same thing, you know, they take, they did a blood draw. Is there any? Is there, is, is there gonna be a good chance that that blood is, is gonna have foxglove in it?

• 46:34Speaker 04

  Probably so, yeah.

• 46:35Speaker 05

  Okay, why do you think for sure? And just be honest again, just be honest.

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Cause she was ordering plants.

• 46:41Speaker 05

  Okay, foxglove plants?

• 46:44Speaker 04

  I think so, I know that she tried to get ahold of some nugwort, which I didn't know what that was.

• 46:50Speaker 05

  Okay, tell me about the foxglove. And where it was ordered from?

• 46:56Speaker 04

  I think that she...

• 47:00Speaker 04

  Found someone at Etsy?

• 47:02Mike Boudet?

  This was Marcia's response.

• 47:04Speaker 06

  You said, "I need foxglove seeds." And she says, "I think," or you said, "I think I can get them at Walmart." Flowers. And then she said, "Thank you. We are watching a new movie on Netflix with the kids, and those are traceable."

• 47:20Mike Boudet?

  The entire foxglove plant is poisonous, so it could have been easy enough to believe that Marcia wanted seeds to plant because of the pretty flowers. Still, when Ashley followed up in a message saying, "Those are traceable," detectives knew this was bigger than they originally thought. The rest of the messages gave plenty of clues, but that was just it. They were clues. What became clear was that Harold had been sick for weeks, and the reason was becoming apparent. Neither Marcia nor Ashley seemed to care about his misery either. All they cared about was their own.

• 48:03Mike Boudet?

  Marcia messages Ashley, saying she's irritated and she can't sleep. She needs for this to be over. She says, "It's hanging on by threads. It's so long, because he's big," meaning something is taking too long because of his size and weight. Marcia and Ashley often referred to Harold as "it," by the way, so that gives you a clue into their character. Ashley answers Marcia, "It moves slow and has to build." Marcia then says she wished it would, quote, "reach its climax and be done, lol."

• 48:45Mike Boudet?

  He's snoring on and off, "And if he moved around, it would go faster," end quote. Then Ashley responds, "Yes, if he got moving, it would be faster, but we know he won't."

• 49:00Mike Boudet?

  Marcia went on to explain that Harold's stomach was hurting, but his face was better. Yet he wasn't presenting like the stories, just vomiting and diarrhea. Ashley answers, "We also have god knows how many that aren't reported, or know how it grows. Only the stories of the self-inflicted. And we will see. If not, we will do something else, but I think it's slowly doing it." The detectives were shocked by what they found and when they questioned Marcia, she had an explanation for everything, even if it didn't make sense. Ashley, on the other hand, just kept pointing the finger at her own mother, even though

• 49:43Mike Boudet?

  they were clearly both involved. Probably the most shocking thing of all was the possibility that this wasn't the first time one of them had poisoned someone. Ashley was currently engaged to a woman and her previous partner was also a woman. But the father of her only child was a man. Well, obviously, because, you know, biology. Anyway, guess what? He died in his early 30s from a supposed stroke. His name was TY. Now ain't that a coinkydink? And then you wonder why people can't find a date in 2026.

• 50:24Speaker 06

  So there's something and then something along the lines like talking about how much he weighs and it's taking longer because he weighs a certain amount and Ty's brought it up and how much Ty weighed and he said, "Love you too. I just want it done. LOL." She said, "Me too, like beyond over laugh out loud, but we got it." He said, "Like what's taking so long? He's off balance. Said he had trouble getting out of the car." She said, "The weight. It takes 12 hours for a woman at 180 to fill anything. You do the math. Laugh out loud. It's slow." And previously Ty was only 120, LOL. So it's the weight.

• 51:09Speaker 06

  He said, "So it's going to take a while?" She said, "48 max. We will know." Also, he's high still. I gave him a lot of weed butter. Yeah, she made brownies. You don't know what he has because of that. LOL. Could be nauseous happening and everything. He said, "Laugh out loud, he's making me mad."

• 51:35Mike Boudet?

  In case you didn't hear, Marcia says he gets stupid when he's high. So it looked like Marcia and Ashley were slowly poisoning Harold and they couldn't really track his so-called symptoms because they were giving him weed-infused food to help with the pain and nausea. How kind. But then she mocks him for being stupidly high. While Marcia deflected, played dumb, and spun the texts in her favor with detectives for hours, Ashley very simply maintained that this was all her mother's doing.

• 52:11Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm just gonna kind of get to the punch, okay? I mean, we, I mean, we, we know what happened to Harold. We've got, we've got evidence of that. Your mom come in yesterday. She told us a lot. We've got months and months and months of text messages from your mom's phone. And, I mean, it's, it's obvious that, that, you know, something happened to him. And you know, I mean, basically, now is your chance to tell us

• 52:46Speaker 05

  what you know about what, what happened there. Because

• 52:52Speaker 05

  I mean, like I said, these, these text messages that were, that what, where this stuff came from, the confirmation numbers, I think at some point she probably dragged you into something that you didn't want to be in, or there was something to do with those demons or something, you know, with that, but we just, we just want to know the truth. I mean, you, what's your relat-, is your relationship with your mom good?

• 53:22Speaker 04

  Yes and no. I kind of just put up with what she does. She's always trying to drag me into whatever she gets into and

• 53:32Speaker 05

  She's always trying to drag you into stuff, she

• 53:34Speaker 04

  Anytime I get any type of financial gain on my own, you know, like I sold my house, she wants it.

• 53:42Mike Boudet?

  This was a complete lie told by someone who had taken a large amount of money from her mother, not once, but twice.

• 53:50Speaker 05

  I can't imagine what you feel being betrayed by your daughter. And I can't imagine what it would feel like if I knew my kid had done something, you know, but at this, you know, at this point, I mean, there is so much content there and I would almost call it evidence. And like you said, we didn't go into detail in there, what we make of those messages. Um, but I mean, we have more than just the messages. We have the, some of the results in the hospital, when he went to the hospital back in, um, November

• 54:31Speaker 05

  and the symptoms that he was experiencing, which mind you is the same day that you, the, or within the same timeframe, I'm not gonna say the exact day, that the foxgloves are mentioned and the symptoms of foxgloves. See what happens is the, you know, the bleeding and the stomach and the face that you guys are talking about. And then one thing that he didn't get to all the way down was on the 19th, whenever the, the ethylene glycol gets there, is the conversations then, you know, like it's there, then there were some pictures, you know, like I said, the root beer and things like that.

• 55:12Mike Boudet?

  Detectives gave Marcia every opportunity to point the finger back at Ashley or just come clean, but she refused.

• 55:21Speaker 06

  I'm not gonna be shocked at this point.

• 55:24Speaker 05

  To be shocked, you would have to not believe any of the messages between you and Ashley. To be shocked that it wouldn't be in his system, or you wouldn't believe any of the, the stuff on the Google search that was never Google.

• 55:39Speaker 06

  I mean, and what Steven tells us, I mean, he says root beer float and that's what we find, right? You know, not long after ethylene glycol was, or sent to your house and the name that's addressed to is Lynn Allen, which your middle name is Lynn, and it's your address. And so. I mean, we, I know, we've already told you all this and you already know all this, but that's why we're where we're at. I mean.

• 56:06Speaker 05

  I mean, and I know you're smart. I mean, like you say, you already, you know how this looks. I mean, this stuff doesn't look good. And then to have this on top of it. And I mean, there, there was enough that, you know, the courts and judge and prosecutor, you know, have issued warrants for the, for the phones and.

• 56:27Mike Boudet?

  During the interviews, detectives went back to the phone copy. They saw gaps. Marcia had deleted a lot of texts. This is Detective Adam Nicholson again.

• 56:41Speaker 05

  And after she submitted to the phone download or consented, she actually deleted the messages in the interview room between her and Ashley because Clint had to step out of the interview room for a second and grabbed the consent form for her to sign. So, and he couldn't like take her phone with him because, you know, she hadn't, she hadn't signed it yet, but she had consented. And while he's gone, she's going through her phone, she's deleting things. She told him that she was just deleting like pictures from her security camera, like of her in the house or, you know, where she was like in her underwear and stuff. And she didn't necessarily want us to see that, which was

• 57:23Speaker 05

  understandable, you know. But when she gave us the phone, I thought, there's no way that that there's anything on that phone. She, there's no way she would have gave it to us. So I think that she thought by deleting those messages that she was probably free and clear. And then she didn't hear back from us until October, that was September 20th. We showed up early in the morning on the 16th of October. This would have been 2023. And we had search warrants for her house for all electronic devices like laptops, computers, old cell phones, memory sticks or flash drives, hard drives, things like that. She didn't, she didn't know we were coming until we knocked on the door.

• 58:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, we knocked on the door early in the morning. She had just got out of bed, it appeared. She was like in her, um, still like PJs. And you can tell then she was shocked and uh, I read the warrants to her and the warrant actually mentions like to seize the property for evidence of, of murder, for the crime of murder. And I remember like her face is like, you know, if you, if you watch that video, yeah, you can tell like she knows then like, and she agreed. So she, um, me and Clint took her back to the sheriff's department while the other officers and detectives, um, completed the search warrant. And so I think that was probably her first moment of like knowing

• 58:53Speaker 05

  like, yeah, they, there's, there's, they know something.

• 58:57Mike Boudet?

  They knew Ashley and her mother had discussed how long it would stay in someone's body, how no one would notice and how to make it ready for use by saying, I need something that crushes this into powder. They also had testimony of Ashley's partner recalling that Ashley was grinding up something she put in Harold's brownies, throwing the grinder away afterwards and telling her lover not to say anything about it. On October 17th, Ashley interviewed with detectives from jail after being arrested for the burglary. They were surprised she said anything at all because when they picked her up in Missouri for the burglary, she immediately asked for an attorney.

• 59:43Speaker 05

  I'm proud of Detective Berchem and the job he did and, and myself. And, you know, it was just one of those though, that it couldn't be at our best because our, our hands were tied, you know, like we, we knew with Marsha because we were told, the prosecutor told us if we didn't get a confession, we couldn't arrest her. I mean, we kind of went, you know, like I wanted to know that if, if she told me to, you know, go screw off that, you know, I could arrest her. But I didn't have that in my back pocket, you know, so I had to sit there and play dumb, play nice, you know, try to go along with what she was saying, try to act like I was believing what, I mean, because if I, the moment I started pushing on her,

• 1:00:26Speaker 05

  she got very upset and I could tell that she was close to probably saying, you know, like, I want an attorney. And if she would have said, you know, I want an attorney, then game over. That's the law and we respect that. You can't, you can't keep questioning somebody once they say that. So we had to be very, very careful on how we approached that interview. You know, knowing how hard it is and having it happen to me before, like how easy it is for somebody to say, I want an attorney. Like, you're done. And, and we had already been told, like, you can't arrest her if she doesn't confess. So we didn't get her arrested. And it was the same thing with Ashley, except we already had that experience with Ashley once because she was, was, when she got arrested in Missouri,

• 1:01:11Speaker 05

  me and Clint Bertram, the detective, had also went out there and they brought her back to their sheriff's department. We went in to talk to her just about the burglary, not about the murder at all. Like, we were just there to talk about the burglary and didn't want her to even know that we knew about the murder. And she requested an attorney, like, almost immediately. Like, said, you know, she wanted an attorney. So when she got brought back to Jackson County, you know, we, we had hopes, but they weren't very high. Like, we thought, you know, as soon as we go in there and tell her, you know, hey, we don't want to talk to you about the burglary. We, we don't, we can't talk to you about that. You request an attorney, but we want to talk to you about the death of Harold. Like, I thought 100% she was gonna say,

• 1:01:56Speaker 05

  I don't want to talk to you, but, but she did.

• 1:01:59Mike Boudet?

  During that interview, Ashley talked. But her words mainly implicated her mother, which was no surprise. But the detectives had an unfortunate surprise for her.

• 1:02:16Speaker 06

  Completely different.

• 1:02:18Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:02:19Speaker 06

  Okay. Um, it's not gonna be an easy conversation, okay? Um, after your mom was here yesterday and spoke with us, we got a call to go check on her welfare, um, at her home. And she's passed away.

• 1:02:36Speaker 04

  What?

• 1:02:37Speaker 06

  She's, she passed away.

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  What happened?

• 1:02:44Speaker 06

  Without going into a lot of detail.

• 1:02:46Speaker 04

  She didn't tell me.

• 1:02:47Speaker 06

  She, it appeared that there was something ingested possibly, um, and passed away.

• 1:03:00Speaker 04

  You're serious?

• 1:03:01Speaker 06

  I'm, I'm one hundred percent serious, yes.

• 1:03:05Speaker 04

  She killed herself.

• 1:03:08Speaker 06

  That is what we.

• 1:03:09Speaker 04

  The way you think, you're like, this is.

• 1:03:11Speaker 06

  That's what we believe happened, yes.

• 1:03:14Speaker 04

  I'm in shock, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

• 1:03:17Speaker 06

  Please, there's nothing to apologize for, um. I, I felt it was necessary to let you know that, um.

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  I appreciate it.

• 1:03:28Speaker 06

  I'm very, very sorry for your loss.

• 1:03:36Mike Boudet?

  In hours of tape, Ashley stayed flat, measured, careful, clinical, almost. The only crack comes when detectives tell her, Marcia, her mother, is dead. That's when the mask suddenly slips. Her voice wobbles. Her breath catches and for one minute, the room feels human again. It's a strange tragedy. Mother and daughter so tightly bound together that they eliminate the person they feel is getting in the way. Harold. They talked of plans to sell the place and move in together.

• 1:04:20Mike Boudet?

  But then, the pressure begins mounting. Marcia knows that Ashley will likely be in prison for a very long time. And they're coming for her next.

• 1:04:34Mike Boudet?

  So she takes an easy exit. If her daughter could betray her so easily, she would do the same. What Marcia couldn't have known was what Ashley would do next.

• 1:05:10Mike Boudet?

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• 1:05:54Mike Boudet?

  on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you can trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places. Hi, I'm Jenna Ashkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real

• 1:06:38Speaker 07

  People like Daniel. People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood. And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone. One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies. So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down rather than giving teens the answer. Study mode helps teens work through problems and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:08:04Mike Boudet?

  Fifty-seven-year-old Harold Allen died at home in Freetown, Indiana, on December 20, 2022, five days before Christmas. His death was first certified as natural. Months later, a September 19, 2023 burglary at the same house drew detectives back. Marcia Allen, Harold's wife, had been out of town when home cameras captured Stephen White, who was happy to spill all the tea in the world, with plenty of dramatic flair, I might add, and phone messages tied the break-in to Marcia's daughter and friend of Stephen, Ashley Jones.

• 1:08:48Mike Boudet?

  Detectives then shifted from burglary to death. Records showed an online order shipped under the family name to the Free Town address. And interviews on October 16th and 17th, 2023 focused on whether that chemical ended up in Harold's drink, a root beer float. Marcia had denied the order. Ashley had pointed to Marcia. But soon, evidence tied them both to the murder. Just before detectives would have arrested Marcia, they found her at home, dead in her bed of suicide.

• 1:09:25Mike Boudet?

  As for Harold, toxicology later reported ethylene glycol, and the death certificate was amended. Review of Marcia and Ashley's text messages alluded to an even bigger mystery. Was this Ashley's first attempt at poisoning? Detectives found it beyond strange that, get this, Ashley's ex-husband also died of supposed heart conditions. Or a stroke. Hmm. Suspicious, wouldn't you say? He died at a very young age, just days after he received an inheritance. Could that be a coincidence?

• 1:10:09Mike Boudet?

  Ashley Jones was arrested and charged in October of 2023 with murder, conspiracy to commit murder, attempted murder, and burglary tied to Harold Allen's death and the September 2023 break-in. She later pleaded guilty in 2025 to Level 1 felony conspiracy to commit murder and attempted murder, and was sentenced to 50 years in Jackson Circuit Court. But Ashley, being the wonderful, well-adjusted human that she was, wasn't finished getting rid of people. After only a few months of incarceration, she hatched a plan. It involved a jailmate named Anita.

• 1:10:52Mike Boudet?

  Detective Nicholson just happened to know Anita.

• 1:10:55Speaker 05

  You know, I worked in the jail for like, five years prior to becoming a deputy in 2005. So from 2000 to 2005, I was a jail officer. So I'm familiar with a lot of the inmates that, you know, that are in and out. And you know, this case had been in the news a few times. So I'm sure that Anita probably knew that I was the officer that was working it. And she reached out to a jail officer to let her know that she wanted to talk to me. Ashley knew that Anita was going to be getting released pretty soon. She wasn't on like, any real serious charges. And Anita and Ashley

• 1:11:36Speaker 05

  were in that cell together. Well, word traveled pretty quick when Anita came in, uh, because Ashley had already been in jail. And, and when Anita came in, word traveled pretty quick about who she was and who her connections were. And, um, there's a, I hate to even call it a gang, because it's really not a gang. And if they were a gang, they're not into like, killing people. It's not that kind of gang. But I think Ashley started, you know, seeing, like, she's never been in jail. She didn't, she didn't know, you know, Anita, she didn't know, um, what this gang was about. And she just heard the word gang and thought, well, I could, you know, sweet talk her and, you know, befriend her

• 1:12:21Speaker 05

  in, in jail here and then get her to have these people that she's friends with in this gang, go and, and kill the people that are, uh, mentioned in my case and going to testify against me.

• 1:12:35Mike Boudet?

  Yep. She was gonna have someone in this so-called gang, go and, uh, kill them all.

• 1:12:44Speaker 05

  She basically wrote a letter that, um, was gonna go out in Anita's mail. And she gave, you know, Anita the letter to, to put in with her mail. And instead of sealing it, Anita took that part of the letter out and hid it and then waited till she could see me. And she provided me with the letter that Ashley wrote. And it was the letter that she wrote to, um, so-called hitman, you know, that she thought was a hitman. And the, was wanting him to go all the way to Massachusetts and kill her fiance and kill Steven and Nathan that were in jail. Uh, then there was some other people and I can't

• 1:13:29Speaker 05

  remember exactly who else, but she, she was just trying to, to get people taken out before they'd have a chance to testify on her.

• 1:13:37Mike Boudet?

  If you thought the texts between Marcia and Ashley were cryptic, wait until you hear about this hit letter. She pretended it was a list of people she wanted prayers for, a prayer list. How spiritual of her.

• 1:13:52Speaker 07

  A lot of things have been on my heart and mind, but I feel the best way to overcome and be set free from it is some prayer. I would like the following people to be added to the prayer list as soon as possible. Have the church lift these people as high as can be to the Lord, so everyone may find rest and peace.

• 1:14:11Mike Boudet?

  She then lists out all the people with their first, middle, and last names, as well as exact locations and what they had done to her, saying that prayer knows no bounds. I mean, you gotta give God GPS coordinates for each person you're praying for, right? Here's just a snippet of the inmate's interview.

• 1:14:35Speaker 05

  That one, you know, that we heard, or that we thought we heard, I just want to make sure that there was a high-powered rifle mentioned, and maybe two shots to the neck.

• 1:14:48Speaker 03

  Right here, she said, these people get guns, scopes, high-powered rifle.

• 1:14:56Speaker 03

  Right here, severs every nerve and kills you instantly, right here.

• 1:15:02Speaker 06

  So that's how she was wanting these people taken out?

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  Actually, specifically. Okay, right here, and right here.

• 1:15:11Mike Boudet?

  She points to the base of her skull and to her forehead, saying those are the two places Ashley said would cause instant death when struck with a bullet.

• 1:15:22Speaker 05

  Who was she wanting her to shoot?

• 1:15:23Speaker 03

  Ashley, and that's just to take out the little... I don't know if you guys heard that.

• 1:15:29Mike Boudet?

  And I don't know if you guys heard that Ashley told Anita to take out Ashley, her fiance, and her fiance's little girl. That would be the same little girl who lived with both Ashleys. You see, Ashley Jones hated, hated her fiance's little girl. So, why not take her out too while you're at it? In some of the text messages with Marcia, Ashley said, "Let her starve. I hate the kid. She just sits and just does nothing,

• 1:16:10Mike Boudet?

  looking fat, ugly, and stupid." Remember when they used to make fun of family values and the bigots that promoted them? Those were the days. Let's all just hope Ashley sits in prison for the next 50 years doing nothing but looking fat, ugly, and stupid. In the meantime, Detective Adam Nicholson is writing a book on this murder. And who knows, if he digs harder, he might find even more bodies full of poison left in Ashley's wake. There's already speculation that she may have killed her ex-husband as well. Yeah, he's dead. Detective Nicholson told Sword Scale that this was one of the most bizarre cases he'd ever been involved with.

• 1:16:55Speaker 05

  Or that there wouldn't have even been, there wouldn't have even been a murder case at all. We would have never found out. Like, if it wouldn't have been for Ashley's greed, and if Ashley wouldn't have, you know, had to have set up this burglary at her mom's house and Steven getting caught. So, what led me to Steven was the burglary. It was Ashley's greed. Ashley wanted this burglary to take place, and she trusted that Steven would do it. She had no idea her mom had installed a security system. And, you know,

• 1:17:34Speaker 05

  Marcia would have never reported the burglary had she known that Steven knew about the murder. If she knew that Steven had been told by Ashley about the murder, there's no way that Marcia would have called in on Steven and turned him in.

• 1:17:49Mike Boudet?

  Ashley's genius knew no bounds, the strong, independent woman that she was. Her master plan from inside the prison? Hire total strangers to cross state lines and kill people for her for free. Smart. Real smart. You know what else is smart? Ordering your murder weapons off Amazon. You know what else is smart? Telling your flamboyant and loud-mouthed gay friend that you and your mom murdered someone. You know what else is smart? Staging a fake robbery with that same friend who can't stop talking to steal from your own

• 1:18:30Mike Boudet?

  mother and murder accomplice because you're a greedy narcissistic and self-centered piece of shit? How's that saying go again? There is no honor amongst cold-hearted cunts? I forget. Oh, and before some Karen out there sends me an angry email lecturing me and calling me a sexist for using that forbidden word, realize that words are meant to describe the universe we perceive around us so we can effectively communicate, even the four-letter ones. And I can't think of a better word to describe Ashley.

• 1:19:10Mike Boudet?

  She's what that word was made for.

• 1:19:24Mike Boudet?

  Hope you liked that. And by the way, last week, we put up a video explaining how I fucked up all the pricing for Sword and Scale Television. Well, YouTube demonetized us, so there's only one place on earth you can find Sword and Scale Television now, and that's swordandscale.com or our app. And we lowered pricing to $10 to get access to it.

• 1:19:47Mike Boudet?

  Which means that you can now get the audio-only version of Sword and Scale, the podcast, on Apple Podcasts for just eight bucks. How do you like them Apples?

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options, like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.com/parents to learn more.

• 1:21:22Speaker 03

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