You’re So Good At Conversation!

It’s an understated miracle that humans can get across ideas to one another by saying things out loud. We’re strangely good at not constantly talking over each other, interrupting one another, and correcting misunderstandings. All just by conversing! See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 0:47Josh Clark?

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• 1:31Josh Clark?

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• 1:37Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:47Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  I'm Chuck.

• 1:53Josh Clark?

  Already?

• 1:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, thought it was apropos.

• 2:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, it's my turn to talk?

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Oh, well played.

• 2:07Josh Clark?

  I'm not very good at this, as you know. If you have ever listened to the podcast, and I know you have because you're one of the co-hosts, you know that I step on you a lot?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:18Josh Clark?

  Yep, I'll keep going with my turn constructional unit then. How confused are people, do you think, right now?

• 2:25Speaker 02

  I don't know, probably very. I mean, we should say this is all just a bit to sort of demonstrate conversational analysis.

• 2:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  All that we're demonstrating the analysis. If someone was sitting in another room, making notes about how we were talking.

• 2:41Josh Clark?

  Like a creep?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would be conversational analysis. We were just demonstrating poor communication.

• 2:48Josh Clark?

  Pretty much, but it would be a bonanza for a conversation analyst, a CA, as they like to call themselves. This is a super, super niche field of science. I guess it would be a social science because it branched off from sociology. But one of the things that I've noticed about it is that people like to try to push it into a typical social science, right? Like, come up with some theories, like, why do people do these things that you guys are studying? And conversation analysis says, no, we're not going to do that. Instead, we are purely about observation, noticing patterns, and then figuring out how those patterns predict other patterns,

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  and how all these different patterns fit together in this grand way to make up conversation. And you might say, well, that's pretty boring, wouldn't you, Chuck?

• 3:40Speaker 02

  I mean, I'll let you finish, and then I'll give you my take.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  Okay, you might say it's pretty boring if you were Chuck. The reason why it's interesting is because it reveals something about us. That conversation is one of those things that we're really, really good at, without realizing what we're doing. That conversation is an amazing interaction between two or more people that get stuff done, that shares information, that you can make a case. Basically, our entire human civilization is based on the fact that we're able to converse pretty much effortlessly, even though in a lot of times, it just does not make sense.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, my deal with this is I'll get to this episode, and then I want to wipe it from my memory bank. Because- I'm one of those people that the last thing I want to think about is how I'm conversing with somebody. And it reminds me that that scene in Better Off Dead, when early on, John Cusack is having like his early, a flashback, I think, to his first meeting with his girlfriend. And where they're in his head and he's like, oh, she just touched her nose. Does that mean I have something on my face? And then she's like, oh, he just touched his face. Do I have mustard on my face or something like that?

• 4:54Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  And then before you know it, they're just going crazy. And that's kind of what this does to me is I don't want to think about like, I'm very much am organic when it comes to stuff like this. And the last thing I want to think about is, did I say that right? Or did I interrupt somebody? Or did was I did I act interested enough? Like that kind of thing? Just, I have no place for that in my life.

• 5:17Josh Clark?

  That's funny, because that is almost 100% of what goes on in my mind when I'm talking, or when someone else is talking. Like, I can't help but do that.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  I know. And I know that. And I feel for you for that, because that can't be fun.

• 5:32Josh Clark?

  It's really tiring.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  My bad.

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  So, okay, this is like, potentially a career ending topic pick that I made, huh?

• 5:42Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. I just, you know, it's interesting. And then I just don't want to ever think about it again.

• 5:46Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, do a good job doing that. And I'm sorry for even picking it. Well, let's dive into all of this, because it is interesting in and of itself, even though it is a really strange display in the way that it's set up.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it draws from a couple of fields primarily. Libya helped us with this one. And I can tell because it's awesome.

• 6:05Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Ethno methodology, and that is, it's studying how people, not just how they make sense of the world, but how they do it in relation to others and how they collaborate with others.

• 6:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  And then socio linguistics, which is language, but not just language, language specifically, with like, how it relates in specific cultures, in the context of different cultures. And there were three key players and researchers doing this in the 1970s mainly.

• 6:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  At UCLA, go Bruins. The first one is a sociologist named Harvey Sacks. And he seems to have kind of been the ringleader here. He's the the grandpappy of conversation analysis. He started UCLA in the 60s, but really got into this in the mid 70s.

• 6:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he stopped in the seventies because the poor guy died in a car crash at forty years old in nineteen seventy-five. And he really only worked on this for just over a decade, but he figured it out. He laid this down. And part of it was that he benefited from working closely with some other sociologists, including Irving Goffman, who was the star of our impression management episode. And I think that might have been where I first heard of conversation analysis. And then, so he was working with Irving Goffman. They weren't doing the same thing, but they were both coming from that same strain of sociology, which is, it was really transitional at the time, from studying huge institutions like

• 7:38Josh Clark?

  religion or government and zooming into a much more granular, almost micro-interaction level. So that's what Goffman was into with impression management. Harvey Sacks was into that with conversation.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. He didn't publish a lot of stuff. This wasn't like white paper, peer-reviewed kind of stuff. It was mainly like, you know, sort of pre-TED Talk kind of thing, like, hey, isn't this interesting? Here's my lectures. I'm going to make them available. You can take a gander if you want.

• 8:05Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Then there was a student of Sacks named Gail Jefferson there at UCLA, who was a dance major, but had this interesting job. She worked as a typist for the Department of Public Health, and part of that included transcribing sensitivity training sessions with prison guards. And so she got really interested in a very kind of key part of conversation with something called turn-taking, when you, you know, take turns talking. And a lot of this will be about like cues that people give to let the other person know, hey, now it's your turn to speak, or how to interject constructively, or interrupt constructively, things like that. But that seemed to kind of fascinate her when she was transcribing these training sessions with the prison guards.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  And so she got interested in that. She ended up developing a whole system called the Jefferson transcription system.

• 8:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Which we're going to talk about a little bit, basically how to kind of make sense of all this stuff when you're, you know, writing down how people are speaking to one another. And then later on, it's kind of interesting. I think she worked with laughter. She was fascinated by laughter and how that works its way into a conversation and how someone may cue someone to laugh at something they've even said themselves by giving a small laugh after they've said that thing.

• 9:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah. The third guy is Emmanuel Shagloff, and he seems to have kind of taken the reins after Harvey Sacks passed away. That's my take. He became the chair of the Conversation Analysis Department at UCLA, which seems to be the center of conversation analysis, from what I can tell. He also received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the American Sociological Association in 2010. So he was a big man on campus, essentially.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was a big Bruin on campus. But they kind of started out and got, you know, with kind of the simpler side of things, which is like, hey, let's look at telephone calls and just sort of everyday interactions with people. Like, what do people say at the beginning of a phone call? What do people say at the end of a phone call? And this is sort of the bird's eye view of like, just very basic interactions before they got more specific with their observations, I guess.

• 10:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but also, one of the genius things about studying phone calls is how do two people who aren't looking at each other know when it's their turn to talk?

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Like us.

• 10:36Josh Clark?

  Exactly. And they don't just sit there and talk over one another constantly, and it's just one big jumbled mess. That's what I was talking about earlier. We're really good at conversation. We don't even realize it.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:46Josh Clark?

  But one of the first things you have to do then is not just record the phone call, you have to transcribe it. And that's what Gail Jefferson came up with, was that method of transcribing. It's pretty clever. If you know what you're looking at, you can get a lot of information from this transcription if it's used the Jefferson method.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this was like, you know, this came around the early 70s. This is when linguist Noam Chomsky was kind of out there in the public sphere with his idea that there's a universal grammar. And this doesn't, you know, this didn't set out to disprove that or anything like that. It was really more of, let's look at different cultures and dynamics within a conversation. Because Chomsky and, you know, some of his cohorts was like, you know, conversations are just, you can't analyze this kind of stuff systematically. The conversations are too irregular and too different between people. And they were like, no, I think we can actually come up with some principles that are consistent enough to do it. And I think they did.

• 11:47Josh Clark?

  Totally. And one of the first projects that they started, one of Harvey Sacks' first projects was, he worked with a psychiatric hospital, an emergency psychiatric hospital. So their work's pretty urgent, you can imagine. And one of the things that they wanted to figure out was how to get patients to give them their name when they called in. Because there was a certain amount of reluctance, as you can imagine, especially back in the mid to late 60s.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, they found out when a call was answered at one of these places, they would say, if they said just hello, the person might just say hello. But if they said, well, hi, this is, this is Dr. Charles Bryant. What can I do for you today? May I help you? The people were much more inclined to then respond by saying, oh, well, this is also Charles Bryant, and I'm calling because I'm having some intrusive thoughts, or something like that.

• 12:42Josh Clark?

  Right. And then the receptionist would go, ha, I got you. I got your name. We know your name now.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Sometimes they found that people would not respond in kind with their name. And in those cases, it's pretty interesting. And this, you know, kind of provided another little nugget of information for how these things go.

• 13:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  When they did not say, oh, yeah, my name's Chuck, and I'm having, you know, intrusive thoughts, they would sort of introduce like a disruptor. They would say something like, huh? Or what? And just a small little bump in the road to change the conversational flow.

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Subtly kind of saying like, I don't want to give you my name, without saying, I don't want to give you my name.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  Right. Because what they found, conversation analysts found, was that we follow set patterns, these kind of prescribed rhythms of conversations. So if you interrupt the flow of one type of conversation with, say, a huh, a new set of rules comes up that takes the conversation from there, that both people are aware of, but don't realize they're aware of. Which, to me, I hadn't thought about it, but if you've ever said huh to somebody, when you knew full well what they had just said, you were just reflexively trying to derail or disrupt that, that type of script in favor of a different one. Never realized that before, but it makes sense.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Or maybe by time even, but it's just some sort of a disruptor to divert something for some reason.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Sacks identified another thing called composites. And they're phrases that that are kind of combined as a unit. And it usually is a prompt for some kind of response. Like if someone says, may I help you like that on the telephone? That what they're then obviously is asking you for a response to let you know what's going on. And in the case of like an emergency call center, they might literally respond to, may I help you by saying, I don't know. And that what they found was is it wasn't like, like that was a reasonable response. Like somebody might literally say like, I don't, I don't know if you can help me. And it needed to be sort of taken at face value like that.

• 14:49Josh Clark?

  Right. What they, what that suggested that Sacks discovered was that there were these composites. Where if you're saying, may I help you, you don't mean it at face value. It's a part of a, I think what would be called later, an adjacent pair. Where you prompt, you say something that's a prompt. And there's an expected like range of responses to it. And anything outside of that is like, mm, okay, that makes sense on paper, but it doesn't make sense conversationally. And he kind of supported this with the idea. He wrote in a 1975 paper that everybody has to lie.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:25Josh Clark?

  And he used the example of like a greeting among people meeting on the street. Where you say like, how are you doing? And if the person says anything other than fine or great or good. They've just violated this, this type of composite prompt. You're not supposed to say anything else. And even more interesting than this, Chuck, is that they seem to have found that this is actually universal. It's not just like among Americans or English speakers or Germans or anything like that. Everybody essentially does not want to know how you're actually doing.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I found that that's a, a very good indicator of closeness. And how you know that you've developed a true like closeness with someone else, like a friendship or whatever. Because that's much more of a formal thing. If even if you know somebody, but don't know them that well, you'll say, oh, like, oh yeah, I'm doing fine. And they're like, oh, pretty good. But if it's somebody you really know and you're close to, you don't have to lie. You can very easily say, I'm super tired or I'm not doing great because X, Y, Z.

• 16:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. If you find somebody who actually does want to know how you're doing, you hang on to that person.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Right, or if you meet someone out of the blue and say, how you doing? And they start in with the truth, then just walk away.

• 16:41Josh Clark?

  Maybe even jog away.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, red flag.

• 16:45Josh Clark?

  So one of the other big breakthroughs was came along when you could rent VCRs. And they had giant recording equipment, like the kind they used in Poltergeist. That changed conversation analysis where now all of a sudden you could see all the stuff that goes along with it. It wasn't just telephone calls from disembodied voices. You could see how people interacted and it opened up this whole new world.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  For sure. Should we take a break?

• 17:12Josh Clark?

  I knew you were gonna say that.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be right back.

• 17:16Josh Clark?

  Stuxnet.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Who's Stuxnet?

• 17:18Josh Clark?

  Stuxnet.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 17:19Josh Clark?

  You know what Stuxnet is. Is that a nest?

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Stuxnet.

• 17:21Josh Clark?

  Stuxnet, it's a great name.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's Stuxnet.

• 17:24Josh Clark?

  That's the name of it. It's a great name.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  All right.

• 17:27Josh Clark?

  Stuxnet with an X.

• 17:33Josh Clark?

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• 17:55Josh Clark?

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• 18:11Speaker 02

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• 18:36Josh Clark?

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• 19:09Josh Clark?

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• 19:21Speaker 02

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• 19:45Speaker 02

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• 20:57Speaker 02

  You know, before we broke, you talked about the huge cameras and I'm, I'm reading Matthew Modine's diary of making-

• 21:03Josh Clark?

  What?

• 21:04Speaker 02

  A Full Metal Jacket. You know, the actor Matthew Modine?

• 21:07Josh Clark?

  Of course, I know exactly what you're talking about, but number one, I can't believe there is such a thing. And number two, I can't believe you're reading it.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Oh, it's great. It's his diary when he was making the movie. Casey actually got it for me when we were doing Movie Crush. It was a very sweet gift, but he-

• 21:21Josh Clark?

  It's a Casey gift.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  At one point, he was talking about having to put yourself on tape for an audition, and which is something routinely done all the time now, especially since the writer strikes and COVID and stuff. But he was like, it's just such a pain. You gotta know somebody who has one of those huge video cameras and you have to go to their studio and blah, blah, blah. And I was just like, it was very cute and quaint.

• 21:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, my niece Mila has to do that a lot.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's super, it's kind of the way it's done now.

• 21:48Josh Clark?

  For sure, for sure. But yeah, I imagine it's, it's, I don't know which would be worse, doing it live in front of people or doing it in front of a recording that you're getting zero feedback from.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  The, every actor I know hates putting themselves on tape. They would much rather be in the room.

• 22:04Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. Cause they're all energy vampires.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  Right. Exactly.

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  So, um, one of the things I kind of alluded to earlier is that conversation analysis is not a standard social science and that it doesn't develop theories of why people are doing these things or why you said this when somebody else said that. Again, they're just looking for patterns. They're looking at its structure. And the cool thing about it is that that doesn't mean that they're not deriving any meaning. They're not postulating what it means. Like, for example, they're not going up to two listeners or two speakers. And they go to speaker number two and say, what do you think speaker number one meant when they said, how are you doing?

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:44Josh Clark?

  They just analyze the conversation and based on speaker two's response, that tells the, the conversation analysts what speaker number two thought speaker number one was saying. So just by examining it, they can come up with meaning or derive meaning from it. Um, and again, that's just not like other social sciences. And it seems to really stick in the craw of everybody else. I love it.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, they also didn't wanna, they wanted to be as organic as possible and just have people have naturally, uh, natural conversations with, with each other rather than orchestrating some big like scenarios.

• 23:20Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Um, you do have to, just because of, um, scientific ethics and stuff, you have to tell people they're being recorded, so you can't truly be just a fly on the wall. But they did find that, um, just the introduction of, um, a recording device, they, they didn't feel like, and I think they've shown, um, through evidence that it didn't really significantly change things enough to where the, that the result was like thrown out or whatever.

• 23:43Josh Clark?

  Right, right. Uh, and like we said, that, that when you, um, are beginning a conversation analysis, you start with a recording of a conversation nowadays, it's with videotapes. Um, and then you transcribe it, and one of the big things in conversation analysis is when you transcribe it, you need to do it as objectively as possible. You need to keep out your own subjective thoughts about who did what, and just, just faithfully say, this was an interruption, this was a TCU, this person, uh, took a breath, breath in the middle of their word. Um, Josh just said, uh, he corrected himself in the middle of the sentence, so he just used a repair.

• 24:24Josh Clark?

  And notate all this stuff without any, um, subjective input from you, and then you go back and you analyze it after it's been fully transcribed.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so you've been very cleverly, I might say, uh, subtly dropping in little, little words here and there that people are like, what's he talking about with this stuff? That's the stuff that they're looking for, and that's the stuff that they named, like things that, like in, in common parlance, we, we know some of these things like rejoinder's and interruptions and things like that, but, you know, they're analysts, so they took it a step further, and, uh, here are some of those right now. Uh, one of them is called a turn constructional unit, TCU, obviously, not Texas Christian University.

• 25:08Josh Clark?

  Uh, frogs, horn toads?

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Horn frogs, I think?

• 25:11Josh Clark?

  Something like that.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:13Josh Clark?

  Even tree frogs?

• 25:14Speaker 02

  I think that's it. But turn construction units are the building blocks of any conversation, of every conversation. And it can be just a gesture, like a nod at somebody. It can be multiple sentences. But they end up with what's called a transition relevance place, a TRP. And that is a moment where like what you've said has ended and someone else may have a turn to speak now. Or you may say something else after that, and that's just you taking

• 25:47Speaker 02

  another turn, basically, and having two turn construction units in a row.

• 25:52Josh Clark?

  And so what, just right after you said in a row, that's where the transition relevance place was. That was it. Cause it gave me a chance to start talking. And everything you said leading up to it was the turn constructional unit. That was your turn. You took your turn in the conversation. There was a pause that allowed me to start taking my turn. And that's, that's the basic building blocks of a conversation.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 26:18Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  See, you're good at this.

• 26:20Josh Clark?

  There's also, when I analyze it, sure. There's also like a lot of different, I guess, rules or exceptions or whatever. Like you could say, you could use two turns in a row without really allowing for a transition relevance place. That pause that allows the other speaker to start, for example.

• 26:41Josh Clark?

  You could say, are you hungry? I could go for a burger. You actually just took two turns like a big fat hog without any pause in the middle. And yet that's not considered like any sort of violation of conversation. It's just, again, it's like an exception. It's a, it's a way that we've kind of, we're so good at conversation. We can show off by taking two turns in a row and not mess up the flow of conversation.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. If it's, and we have to point out too, that a lot of times they were looking at conversations between just two people. But you can also analyze conversations in groups. It's just sort of a different beast. But in conversations with more than two people, at that transition relevance place where it's probably someone else's turn to talk. Like if you're in a group of people at a dinner party and you're telling a story, it's very common to like finish up the story. And not just stare blankly into space, but you finish up the story and maybe look at one particular person. And there may be a reason for that. Maybe it's it's your person, or maybe it's the person you originally sort of. Started this story in reference to what this other person was saying. So you'll kind of turn it back to them. But you know, that's one way you can.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Sort of indicate like, hey, now I'm looking at you and that they may not speak at that point. It may, you know, someone else may jump in. It just sort of depends.

• 27:58Josh Clark?

  Right. You could also make a finger gun and go at that person. And they, and they'll take over. One of the things I laughed a minute ago when you talked about staring blankly at the ceiling. It's so silly when you, when you just, you just take out like a proper response and put in something else. It just makes me laugh every time. Cause it's so prescribed, like this, these scripts are so prescribed that doing anything other than that is, is just absurd and hilarious.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's like hidden camera material, you know?

• 28:32Josh Clark?

  So I mentioned, I, I think I corrected myself. Actually, it's considered an interruption when I misspoke and said breath weirdly. And then said it again correctly right after. I actually interrupted myself and I referred to that as a repair mechanism.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:50Josh Clark?

  That's exactly what it is. Cause one of the unsung parts of human interaction and conversation. Is that we have to have ways of correcting and adjusting misunderstandings. If we didn't, we would be able to converse, but two people would walk away from the conversation, potentially with totally different. Understandings of the information that was just exchanged. Right? So we have to be able to. Correct ourselves when we know we made a mistake. And then also conversely, we need to be able to ask for clarification. If we didn't understand what the person was saying.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, or someone else may ask for that clarification or something like that. So the repair doesn't have to come, it's not necessarily a self-repair always.

• 29:34Josh Clark?

  Right, but it doesn't mean like going to the person and being like, I'm really sorry and I'm not going to do this anymore. And here's how we're going to do it better from this point forward, not that kind of repair.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Uh, there are also gaps, the, something to identify when they're analyzing conversations and we all know what that is. That, um, I believe I always called them and friends have called them awkward pauses. Uh, when it's not clear who the next speaker is gonna be.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  And that can happen, like, you know, you can, and, and even with groups of close friends in a very social situation. In fact, I feel like that's when it's most sort of noticeable is when like you're at a dinner party and something and everyone's laughing and saying things. And then everyone just draws a blank for a couple of beats.

• 30:15Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  And then someone will usually say like awkward pause or something like that and not say like, that's a, technically it's a conversation gap.

• 30:23Josh Clark?

  Uh, that's, I think, a good, a good replacement now because awkward pause is so used up, just be like conversation gap.

• 30:31Josh Clark?

  So it can be uncomfortable when it happens naturally, naturally like that. Like every, everybody's just kind of run out of things to say about whatever that conversation was. It's even more uncomfortable when somebody misses their turn to speak.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Right, like clearly.

• 30:47Josh Clark?

  Yes, or they don't give any sort of response, right? Um, that is, that can cause a gap. And a lot of times you can signal that by like repeating the question you just asked. Saying the, uh, the punchline one more time. Saying something like, what do you, what do you think about that, a prompting thing? And then there's also non-verbal ways of signaling gaps, like putting both hands in the air and going into a forward lunge.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Right, I've always found that if the joke doesn't go, we're just merely repeating the punchline again always works.

• 31:21Josh Clark?

  Exactly, over and over and over again.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  You may not have heard me. Uh, adjacency pairs, I think you might've mentioned that, but that's when, um, When a specific kind of response is expected, so like, how's it going? Hey, I'm doing pretty good. They're also a lot of times referred to as pre-sequences. So just sort of like, it's sort of like a pad answer almost.

• 31:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like, come in, won't you? Thank you. That'd be invitation acceptance, greeting, greeting, question, answer. There's actually a lot of those that, that those are the ones that are maybe even silliest when you replace it. Like if somebody says, would you like a slice of cake? And you go, hello.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:04Josh Clark?

  It doesn't work.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Well, what if you went, hello?

• 32:09Josh Clark?

  Exactly. I was gonna say the same thing. Like, we've figured out ways around that you can massage the rules and get even more creative with the whole thing, that you could use something that's totally inappropriate and make it appropriate. The best thing about something that funny is explaining it to death.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  All right, here, ask me for cake one more time. I got one more.

• 32:29Josh Clark?

  Okay. Would you like a slice of cake?

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Go yourself.

• 32:35Josh Clark?

  That works. It kind of works to an extent, for sure.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Stories is another one. When you mentioned the staring into space at the end of like a question to you, that can also happen at the end of a story if you don't know what you're doing as a communicator. When you start a story, you, a lot of time give an indicator that, you know, that it's gonna be you for a minute or two by saying something like, did I ever tell you about, or something like that?

• 33:02Josh Clark?

  Or get a load of this.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, get a load of this, or I'd say what happened to me. And then you start your sort of story. And usually you will end it by kind of looking in someone's direction. And that's when you should sort of acknowledge by either saying like, oh, man, that's so funny, or just something like that and not just stare blankly back at somebody.

• 33:21Josh Clark?

  So I have, I'm guilty of doing that, especially before I started treating my ADHD. My mind would wander very, very easily when somebody was telling a story. And I would know that I really miffed it when the person would look at me and then have to feel like they had to explain why I should be reacting more than I am. And then I'd be like, oh, yeah, that really sucks that that happened to you. It was not, it doesn't really make for good. Interactions really makes people want to stay away from you.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Oh, Josh really dug that one, huh?

• 33:52Josh Clark?

  Right. Huh? What? Because yeah, you don't say huh, what? I wasn't paying attention. You try to play it off and that actually makes it worse.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. There are discourse markers and they're just sort of words or phrases like, like organizationally help out like, oh, or because, and you're usually like connecting something to something that came before it.

• 34:16Josh Clark?

  Right. And then the last one is a laminated action, which is when you combine it with a gesture that it doesn't just change the meaning, it actually completes the meaning.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:27Josh Clark?

  Livia gave an example of when you say, oh yeah, I've met him and you roll your eyes, right? If you say, oh yeah, I've met him, even that same intonation, it doesn't tell the person what you actually think about them. When you roll your eyes, then they get the whole picture. You've met them, you've judged them, you can't stand them, you wish they were dead, dead, dead.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Good eye roll can say all those things.

• 34:53Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Should we take another break now or keep going?

• 34:58Speaker 02

  Uh, let's talk about overlap maybe, and then we can take a break. That feels about right.

• 35:02Josh Clark?

  Good idea.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Uh, so overlap is a really, really, like I feel like conversation analysts just sort of light up whenever there's an overlap that they can witness. They get pretty turned on by that kind of thing. One common form is just like, uh, just a simple misunderstanding. Like I didn't know that your turn was over. I'm sorry. It's not the same thing as interruption. Uh, those are two different things, but um, interruption is like when you stop in the middle of, like stop somebody in the middle of their sentence and talk over them. And overlap is just when someone stops talking and had something else to say maybe, and you, you start on your own train.

• 35:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's the thing I think I do the most to you. I think you're done and then I keep talking or I start talking. That is, yeah, that's just straight up interruption, unintentional. There is such thing as intentional interruption where somebody's trying to like gain control or dominate a conversation, AKA total jerks.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:03Josh Clark?

  There's also a different kind of interruption, which is cooperative interruption. Like when I say right to you while you're telling a story, I'm actually interjecting it while you're still using your turn, you're making a turn construction unit. Unit.

• 36:20Josh Clark?

  But I'm helping you along, at the very least demonstrating I'm listening and participating in the conversation, which makes it cooperative.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and those are just fine. You can interrupt people all the time in the middle of their story and even add to it if you're, if you can, like maybe you'll interrupt and say like, if somebody was telling a story about driving their car, you know, it's like, you know, what was the guy, what kind of car was he driving? And they'll say, oh, a BMW. And then everyone's like, yeah. And they may have left out that detail. So that's all just sort of active participation in the conversation.

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  Precisely. We're also so-

• 36:57Speaker 02

  No shade toward BMW drivers, by the way. I'm not sure why I said that car.

• 37:01Josh Clark?

  We're also so good at this whole thing that we can interrupt while someone's telling a story without taking away from the story. For example, if you're sitting there having dinner with somebody and they're telling a story and you say, hey, pass the potatoes. It doesn't actually like derail the conversation, the person's not offended. You're just, you're just fitting that in there so you can eat the potatoes and enjoy them while you're hearing the story too.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's, that can happen even, I mean, dinner party is such a good sort of experiment because it's everyone seated around and looking at each other and all these conversations are happening, that you can even do that to someone else at the table during someone's story, if the potatoes are closer. But you might do it in a hushed tone, like during the middle of their story, hey, can you pass the potatoes?

• 37:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  And that person may even go, they're so good.

• 37:51Josh Clark?

  So what-

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Like something like that.

• 37:52Josh Clark?

  What kind of potatoes did you imagine when I said pass the potatoes?

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Mashed.

• 37:57Josh Clark?

  Did you, I, I for some reason, um, thought of steamed or baked red potatoes. And then I was like, those are no good. So I changed it to scallop potatoes, which are great.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Oh, man. You ever think everything, don't you?

• 38:10Josh Clark?

  I, I totally do. And then I thought about, Yumi makes really good scallop potatoes. It just kind of kept going from there.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  I wonder what Chuck's talking about right now.

• 38:20Josh Clark?

  Exactly. No, I was listening to, that is a bit of a talent. I can listen and do that at the same time.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 38:27Josh Clark?

  What?

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. Uh, I think this is kind of really interesting. There's a Georgetown University linguist named Deborah Tannen, who did a fun little experiment where she transcribed conversations between two Californians, three New Yorkers and a Londoner. And this should come as no surprise. New Yorkers talked over everybody. And when they did it with the fellow New Yorker, the other New Yorker just kept talking and they were just sort of talking over each other. And they were still enthusiastic and having a good time. But when a New Yorker talked over a Californian or a Londoner, they would stop talking. Other people, you know, when they went back and looked at it, others viewed it as like, these New Yorkers are dominating the conversation. They just want to take over anytime I said anything. The New Yorkers were just like, hey, it's all good. This is what we do.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  And they found that, uh, as far as New Yorkers, and the New Yorkers also thought that,

• 39:21Speaker 02

  um, like no one joined in, like when they stopped talking. They were like, well, I guess they didn't want to talk or whatever, because they're not interrupting me.

• 39:27Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  But they did find that, um, other scholars have found that there are these New York like patterns in other cultures, uh, Samoan, Japanese and Italian American. And so that's why every Italian, American, New York family, all they do is just sit around and scream over each other all the time.

• 39:45Josh Clark?

  Right. And Japanese stood out to me and I'm like, that doesn't sound right. And then I thought of, um, have you ever seen a Japanese like morning talk show?

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Oh, sure. Yeah.

• 39:54Josh Clark?

  So the, the, somebody like a guest or some other anchor or something will be talking and then one of the hosts will interject usually a question before the person has finished talking and the person stops saying what they were saying and answers that question and adjusts without being offended at all. So it actually happens quite a bit and usually toward the end of a sentence or a story or something like that, but it does happen a lot. Whereas American English speakers, you are done speaking, then the person starts speaking or else you have transgressed on that person's turn.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  For sure. Should we take a break?

• 40:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  All right. We'll take a break and finish up right after this. Stuxnet. Who's Stuxnet? Say it one more time. Stuxnet. I don't know what that is. You know what Stuxnet is. Is that a N S? Stuxnet. Stuxnet. It's a great name. Yeah, I could say Stuxnet. That's the name of it.

• 40:45Josh Clark?

  I know.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  It's a great name.

• 40:46Josh Clark?

  All right.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Stuxnet with an X.

• 40:53Josh Clark?

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• 41:02Speaker 02

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• 41:15Josh Clark?

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• 41:31Speaker 02

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• 41:55Speaker 02

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• 42:14Josh Clark?

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• 43:08Josh Clark?

  So, we talked about how all of these are scripts or templates. Like, you say something, and there's a predictable response. And there's actually, you can boil it down to what are called families. So, like, different types of conversations fall into different kinds of families. The big ones that we've seen are reconstruction, moralizing, and projection, right?

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, reconstruction, you know, obviously, reconstructing or remembering and sharing something about an event with somebody. The projective is looking to the future.

• 43:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Could be very specific, like, where we're going to dinner, or just more like, sitting around and chatting out loud about, like, the real future. And then, what was moral communication? About good and bad?

• 43:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's more about tearing people down or complimenting people. And we tend way more toward negativity, tearing people down, rather than building people up. And our tearing people down types of genres are way more intricate and sophisticated than our building people up or complimenting, because we have a negative bias as a species.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  That's depressing.

• 44:23Josh Clark?

  So we'll outgrow it one day. Just give us several tens of thousands of years.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, so at the beginning, we kind of talked to, I think we gave an example of how this might be used, like on the job or something, and sort of practical applications do involve that for sure. Like, you might be hired by a company to come in and consult when that company does, like, has kind of the same kind of conversation over and over with people. Like, if it's a surgical team, or a call center, for sure. Whenever you hear, "This call may be recorded for training and evaluation purposes," that's probably what they're doing right there. Or maybe just judging their own employees and how they're doing on the job.

• 45:01Josh Clark?

  Right, for sure. They've also found, you can help people get certain types of responses that you're looking for. Like, we talked about the emergency psychiatric hospital, where they wanted to get the person's name and then trick them into it. There was a guy named John Heritage, unsurprisingly, from UCLA, who worked with doctors to figure out how they could get patients to volunteer more problems that they needed help with. And they found that doctors who say, "Is there anything else that you need help with today?" Apparently, anything triggers a response, a predictable response, which is no. But if you change anything to something, that, for some reason, that particular script or

• 45:46Josh Clark?

  template opens up the possibility of sharing more information. And you would just never figure that out. And this is one of the sterling examples of how conversation analysts, like, actually help things change for the better.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was well said.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  Thank you. Way to go, John Heritage, at all.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  A woman named Elizabeth Stokoe of the London School of Economics and Political Science, found this when she studied conversations in a mediation service, that people, it seems like in this case, people just kind of wanted to get down to brass tacks on what actually they did. They didn't want to hear things like, "Well, we don't take sides here and we don't judge." They really wanted to hear just sort of the step-by-step process of mediation and how it worked.

• 46:33Josh Clark?

  Yes. She also works with companies that are trying to install customer service bots. And I was reading about that. It's not going very well.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  I bet.

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  People hate customer service bots.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Yes, I do.

• 46:45Josh Clark?

  There's a, yeah, I'm one of them too. There's a question of, okay, is the solution making these bots way more human-like? Should we insert things like have, have a bot say, um, or you know, like waffle like a human does? And from what I saw, the consensus is no, don't do that. Bots should be recognizable and volunteer themselves as bots. Humans are humans, keep the two separate. And I, I, I don't know which direction it's going. It does kind of seem like the whole thing's in a quagmire currently. But I also did see that bots are poised to start taking over the reins from human conversation analysts and doing it themselves and then training bots how to be better at their job.

• 47:30Josh Clark?

  So one bot, training another bot.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:33Josh Clark?

  That's from what I can tell the, the future of conversation analysis.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, with the movie, uh, her that now is like, kind of freakily ahead of its time, uh, with Scarlett Johansson. I think in that situation, they definitely wanted to make her way more human and do things like stumble words and make mistakes. But if it's something like a customer service bot.

• 47:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  You, you don't want that. I don't want it at all, but I definitely don't want one that's like, huh, I just goofed. Aren't I cute?

• 48:05Josh Clark?

  Exactly. LOL. So let's get down to it though, Chuck. Here's the real reason we started talking about this. Do men interrupt women as much as people think?

• 48:18Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, this has been something that they've studied a lot since the seventies about, you know, the roles that, that plays and, uh, it's been mixed results. There have been studies that found that men interrupt women, um, much more. There are some, uh, that found there's not much of a difference. There was a meta-analysis from 1998 that found that gender divide becomes more clear cut when looking at intrusive, specifically intrusive interruptions as to cooperative interruptions. And that's kind of what I took away is that. It seems like when men are interrupting, it is definitely more intrusive. Maybe mansplaining?

• 48:55Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 48:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  And women interrupt maybe just as often, but it's it's much more of the cooperative type.

• 49:02Josh Clark?

  Right. And they chalk this up to different kinds of upbringings where girls who become women are raised to essentially socialize through communication, through conversation. So they become masters at it, but they also develop expectations that men don't necessarily fulfill, like like cooperative interruptions, like, oh, that's right. Mm hmm. You don't say. If a man doesn't do that, the woman might feel like she's not being listened to. And conversely, boys are raised in a hierarchical manner where they might eventually come to see listening as a form of submission. And where instead they're trying to dominate. They want to be the alpha male.

• 49:45Josh Clark?

  They want their puffy vest to be the coolest at their kids' football game. And so not only are they not going to cooperatively interrupt, they're not even going to listen and they may interrupt competitively too. So there's a lot of, at least anecdotal data to back that up for sure.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think they also found that men tend to interrupt more in groups than a one on one. And that definitely seems to fall in line with like, you know, trying to establish the the power position. And like, if you're working together in a group. They did also find another interesting correlation where in studies where the first author of the study was a woman, they found bigger differences and that just could be that that the male and female researchers are coding the interruptions in a different way.

• 50:36Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Pretty interesting.

• 50:39Josh Clark?

  I thought so too.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  What about generational?

• 50:41Josh Clark?

  Uh, well, they're so apparently Gen Z is just throwing a huge wrench in the works. Remember, we talked about how at the hospital, the emergency hospital, when somebody called and they said, my name is, may I help you? Right? The other person felt obligated to give their name. That's not true. Like when we were growing up, you would not feel like you had to say, oh, well, I'm Josh Clark. And here's what I need from you. You'd just say, oh, hey, I'm, I need this or whatever. That's an example of a generational change that took place. Now it's even more pronounced, apparently with Gen Z. There's something called the Gen Z stare where they're essentially pulling a Josh, where you can tell them a story and they just stare back at you blankly at the end when it's their turn. And apparently it's fairly widespread.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Disconcerting. Yeah, I've heard about it and then I was like, what is that? Then I read up about it and it is very disconcerting, as is the phone call thing, which I haven't experienced because people don't call each other much anymore.

• 51:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  But apparently, Gen Z, when they answer a phone, they don't go, hello. They expect the other person to talk first. So apparently there's a Gen Z thing where they just answer the phone like this.

• 51:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then the other person goes, hello?

• 51:56Josh Clark?

  Or do you need help? That's what I would say.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, I mean, I guess I've definitely witnessed the Gen Z stare with our friends' kids here and there to where you're just like, boy, I just like, I must be the least interesting human on earth because they're just blankly looking at me.

• 52:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah. Or you can look at it the other way and be like, good talking to you. I'll see you later.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I've also found, especially when you're around teenagers, like your friends that have teenage kids, like just don't even, you know, maybe say something nice and hello, but don't try to strike up a conversation. They, they don't want to talk to you.

• 52:34Josh Clark?

  No, they don't.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Just don't.

• 52:35Josh Clark?

  I think.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Just move along.

• 52:36Josh Clark?

  That's been true since Tuk Tuk was a teenager. You know what I mean?

• 52:40Speaker 02

  You know what I usually do? I'll go like, oh, hey, how's it going? How's school going this year? Oh, good, good. Glad to hear it. And I'll just walk away. Like some, like a nice thing to say and then just end it.

• 52:51Josh Clark?

  You don't follow up with like, are you really anxious when you wake up in the morning before school?

• 52:57Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. That, no one wants to hear from an adult if you're of a certain age.

• 53:02Josh Clark?

  Okay, I'm gonna have to rethink my approach then.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  Do you remember when you were a kid, like, I don't remember even having conversations with adults?

• 53:10Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, no, absolutely. You, you know, I'm totally kidding this in everything I'm saying, right?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 53:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, I remember that. It was very intimidating to talk to an adult, let alone having very little in common.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they didn't want to talk to us.

• 53:24Josh Clark?

  No, no, for sure.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Gen X was famously ignored by most adults.

• 53:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, very famous. Just ask Douglas Copeland.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Who's that?

• 53:33Josh Clark?

  He's the guy who wrote Gen X.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Was that a book, famous book?

• 53:37Josh Clark?

  Yes, I believe he's the one who coined the term.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Oh, all right. Good for him.

• 53:42Josh Clark?

  You should read it. It's good. It's a quick read. It's not like an essay or anything like that. It's a story about three Gen Xers and just going through life over, I think, just the course of a few days.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  I've been a reading fool lately. I'll put it on the list.

• 53:56Josh Clark?

  Nice. I just started Infinite Jest, and I'll bet I regret ever announcing it publicly, because it's a-

• 54:02Speaker 02

  Is that David Foster Wallace?

• 54:03Josh Clark?

  Yes, and I love that guy, but this is a slog already.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm finishing, I just finished the Bono book that I had put down like a year ago, and I am almost done with the Don Felder of the Eagles.

• 54:17Josh Clark?

  Good lord.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  You might be asking, why would you read that? It's specifically because I used to love the Eagles, and he, apparently the book was just really bitchy.

• 54:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay, yeah.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  So I was like, ooh, I want to read this, because he's like, he hates those guys, so let me read this.

• 54:35Josh Clark?

  Did Matthew Modine recommend you read it in his diary about Full Metal Jacket?

• 54:40Speaker 02

  No, that's my bathroom book, so I've just been slow-rolling that one.

• 54:43Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. I don't think you should use words like slow-rolling when you talk about being in the bathroom.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Good point.

• 54:51Josh Clark?

  Well, I think we just brought about listener mail, whether we like it or not, don't you?

• 54:58Speaker 02

  That's right. This is not a really correction, just sort of a, maybe a gentle reminder about our history of orthodonture. I feel like we might have focused a little too much on appearance. This is from Aaron. "Hey, guys. Appreciate the depth of curiosity you bring to each topic, and I wanted to offer an update regarding orthodontia. It's not just about appearance anymore. The field has evolved significantly, and current research shows that strong connection between jaw and bite alignment and conditions like sleep apnea, ADHD, and TMJ dysfunction." Which is, of course, totally true. "While some of these links were suspected years ago, orthodontic treatment today is increasingly focused on preventing or mitigating these issues in the youth before they become chronic. On a personal note, my journey with TMJ dysfunction led me down the path of exploring

• 55:41Speaker 02

  treatment options, and after years of discomfort, I've found relief through Invisalign. It not only helped with my smile, it realigned my bite and significantly reduced my TMJ symptoms and opened my eyes to the broader health benefits of orthodontic care." And that is warm regards from Aaron. Very nice email.

• 55:57Josh Clark?

  Aaron Invisa.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, exactly.

• 56:01Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Aaron. I'm really glad. Aaron with an E or an double A? Or one A?

• 56:05Speaker 02

  That's E-R-I-N.

• 56:07Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Aaron. I'm glad that you were able to take care of TMJ. I can't imagine that. That's a fun, chronic condition, you know? If you got rid of a condition that you're happy about, we want to hear about that. Or for whatever reason, you want to write in, you can send us an email. Send it off to [email protected].

• 56:29Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 56:45Josh Clark?

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• 57:17Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 57:18Speaker 04

  Hey, it's me, your wallet.

• 57:20Speaker 03

  Oh, hey.

• 57:20Speaker 04

  I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?

• 57:24Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 57:25Speaker 04

  Really?

• 57:25Speaker 03

  Yep, I'm shopping at Food Lion.

• 57:27Speaker 04

  Wait, you mean low prices?

• 57:29Speaker 03

  And MVP savings.

• 57:31Speaker 04

  Oh, you do care.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Obviously.

• 57:34Speaker 04

  Okay, I feel better.

• 57:35Speaker 03

  Good, now let's go get some snacks.

• 57:39Speaker 05

  At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC, head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 57:53Speaker 06

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor.

• 58:34Speaker 06

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• 58:54Speaker 07

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.