Who are the Zizians?

The story of the Zizians is an unusual one. Are they a cult? Or are they simply a group who wants a better world? And why have six deaths in three states been linked to them? See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, Efgart Tigamod Alpha F Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 0:46Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:10Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:19Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. This is, I guess, a timely, topical, true crime edition, the three Ts.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  C O A alert.

• 1:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  I feel I should sound the klaxon on this one. Yeah, we're issuing a C O A on this one, a pretty, a pretty robust one because A, this is something we don't do a lot, which is tackle true crime in almost real time as far as the fact that none of this is settled. The alleged crimes, we're probably going to say alleged a lot because there's not even been court dates a lot of times for some of these cases. What we're, you know, we're talking about potentially six murders in three states by a group that. May or may not have done it, that may or may not be a cult. So just a big COA there. This is one of the true crimes where like neither one of us are going to be like, oh, here's my theory on this. Cause just who knows, this has got to play out first.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  And the other big COA is a lot of sort of disproportionate amount of members of the Zizians, who we're going to be talking about are members of the trans community. And it's just one of the sort of facts of the case. It's obviously no suggestion or judgment on our part of the trans community. But it's, it seems to be a big sort of part of this group of people who got together. So just kind of keep all that in mind as we lay all this out there.

• 2:49Josh Clark?

  Right. Nice work, Chuck. Thank you for that.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52Josh Clark?

  So like you said, we're talking about the Zizians. How'd you hear about this? This was your pick.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  You know what? I have no idea. I even went to look to see if somebody has suggested it and no one had. I think I might've just seen a news story and been like, wait a minute. This is, this is something that hasn't been a 10 part Netflix series yet.

• 3:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  So it must be super, super current, which it is.

• 3:14Josh Clark?

  My theory is that the great Gazoo said, do one on the Zizians, dum dum. And you were like, I should do one on the Zizians.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thanks for bringing a joke into this thing.

• 3:25Josh Clark?

  So the Zizians are called such because they center around Ziz, a trans woman, who is often portrayed as the leader of this cult. And I mean, you can make a pretty fair case that at the very least, she's the leader or the most influential member, because the whole thing's named after her. Although we should say that this group of people do not call themselves the Zizians. That was a name that was given to them by somebody who's critical of them, an anonymous person who's critical of them.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:57Josh Clark?

  But Ziz herself, we know was born in 1991 in Fairbanks, Alaska. And like the other people that she attracts into her orbit, she was brilliant. I mean, very precocious as far as like working on computers goes, as far as mathematics goes. I think by the time she was at the University of Fairbanks in Alaska, she had internships at both Oracle, the cloud computing company, and NASA. So I mean, like, like she had a pretty, pretty great resume, I guess, is what you'd say if you're on LinkedIn.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And like you said, that's, this is going to be sort of a common thing with everyone who got together with, with Ziz and the others. So in college, Ziz started learning about what's called the rationalist movement, or the rationalist community, which were also very science-minded people. They kind of gathered around Silicon Valley. And one of the big things with rationalism is, and a lot of this stuff makes sense, like a lot of the stuff that they're laying down, like, hey, let's use logical tools to just always question ourselves. Let's not get set in our way of thinking about anything. Let's always revise what we're thinking about everything. And one of the key people here, one of the names that you'll hear early

• 5:12Speaker 02

  and then later on, is a guy named Eliezer Yudkowsky, who is an AI researcher, who is kind of doing something different than what a lot of AI researchers are doing, in that he has devoted much of his career to basically saying, hey, warning, this could really go wrong, and I'm going to do everything I can to make sure it goes down in the right way.

• 5:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he dedicated himself to solving the AI alignment problem, which is, how do you create an artificial intelligence whose motivations are totally aligned with humans, and we don't accidentally wipe ourselves out with the AI we create?

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:48Josh Clark?

  And like you said, it kind of flies in the face of especially what's going on these days, which is like, hurry up and build an AI, or else China's going to do it first, and we're going to lose out. And there's so much money to be made off of AI. And Eliezer Yudkowsky is a very, very interesting dude. He's a self-taught AI researcher, incredibly brilliant. And just by happenstance, I got an email yesterday from somebody at a publishing house that mentioned that he has a new book coming out in September with Nate Sors, one of his collaborators. It's called If Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies, and it's about AI.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Right. Which doesn't have a whole lot to do with the Zizians, but that just sets up kind of who this guy is. In 2009, he founded a blog called Less Wrong, as in, let's do less wrong. And, I mean, I assume that's what it means.

• 6:39Josh Clark?

  It means, so it's about overcoming your biases, like you want to be less wrong, kind of, it's all about thinking clearly and not letting your biases guide your thinking, I think.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so they started gathering as, I guess, a de facto sort of community of rationalists. A lot of this, again, is taking place in and around Silicon Valley in Northern California. And he founded a couple of Berkeley California-based organizations that'll come into play, the Machine Intelligence Research Institute, or MIRI. And again, that's about minimizing the risks of AI. And then the Center for Applied Rationality, or CFAR. And again, same deal, clear, unbiased thinking is what they're after, never getting too set in your ways and always trying to revise how you think about things.

• 7:30Josh Clark?

  Right. They're also very closely tied with effective altruism, which is essentially using rational thinking to donate your money to the greatest good. We did an episode on that, if I'm not mistaken.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  We did, my friend.

• 7:45Josh Clark?

  All of this attracted Ziz to move from Alaska down to the Bay Area in San Francisco. And she got involved with CFAR, got involved with MIRI, and dedicated herself also to trying to figure out this AI alignment problem, too. And she, the thing about this rationalist community is they are as open as you can be. You can be a Nazi and show up and be like, "I'm a Nazi, and here's what I think about everything." And they will engage you in debate, because that's just what they do. They, like, no thought processes off the table. And that

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  attracted a lot of interesting people who were, the average normie would probably not necessarily feel comfortable sitting in a room with, just because, you know, of awkwardness, but also because they probably wouldn't have much to converse about, because the people we're talking about in this rationalist community are so brilliant that they probably would not be able to relate to the average person and vice versa.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, or at the very least, on some of the radical fringes of whatever movement that they're in. Ziz is one of those people and was, started writing on the Less Wrong site and her own blog and writing about, again, stuff that's on the more radical end of the spectrum, like, hey, we got a, you know, sort of a 12 monkeys kind of stuff. Like, hey, we gotta do whatever it takes. Some people might think, you know, something we're doing is evil, but if it's in the service of what we think has a good end, then that's what we should do. Sometimes she calls herself a Sith, as in, you know, Star Wars. And apparently, the name Ziz comes from a speculative fiction story called Worm, that

• 9:31Speaker 02

  a lot of rationalists love, in which Ziz in the story is a villainous entity that if they're listened to for too long, you will go crazy. And so Ziz is all of a sudden hanging around the Bay Area, going to these rationalist hangouts and meetings, wearing black robes and sort of dressed like a Sith.

• 9:50Josh Clark?

  So, all this is what, around 2016, 17, that this is all starting, that Ziz is showing up? And again, like I said, this community is very open, so even though Ziz would show up wearing black robes, declaring herself a Sith Lord, and that that's her religion is Sith, but despite that community being open, she still stood out, not necessarily because she wore black robes and called herself a Sith, but more because she was more intensely devoted and dedicated than even the average rationalist, right? So she did stand out some. One of the other things that she was radically dedicated to was veganism and animal rights. And this would actually end up separating her from the rationalist community eventually.

• 10:34Josh Clark?

  And that, you can kind of make a case, it seems like... Is the initial schism that caused this wedge that led to all the events that would follow?

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, like basically, hey, you're trying to protect human life, like, what about the animals? Like, every sentient animal is a person. And that, this is, these are Ziz's words. And, you know, so we gotta, we gotta kick up the, the intensity on the animal front as well. The problem with all of this is that this was around San Francisco and Silicon Valley, where it's really, really expensive to live. And if you're someone like Ziz, you're not, you know, going out and getting some big tech job where you're making tons of money to afford that condo downtown. So you gotta live somewhere. And this is when Ziz meets up with somebody named Gwen Danielson, had a lot in common,

• 11:26Speaker 02

  another rationalist, another trans woman, another person who is very much into animal rights. And Gwen happened to live on a sailboat in Berkeley Marina and said, hey, this is a much cheaper rent here, why don't you just come and live on this boat with me? I'm also into math, I'm also into science, and I'm also have some pretty radical ideas about stuff.

• 11:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and so the point of this was, if you, and this is Ziz's belief, if you could free yourself from things like paying rent, especially the high rent of San Francisco, and keep your costs down to as minimal as possible, you could devote that much more time to figuring out the AI alignment problem, figuring out how to push Seafar and Miri into protecting animal rights too. Like, just thinking and learning to think better. That was kind of the point. And so I think Ziz initially moved into the sailboat with Gwen Danielson, found that they were not quite exactly compatible roommate-wise, but still friends. And so Ziz bought her own sailboat and docked it at the same marina in Berkeley.

• 12:29Josh Clark?

  And they became what was called the Rationalist Fleet. They invited more and more people to come join them at the marina, and they actually went so far as to buy an old tugboat that by this time was In its seventies or eighties, maybe not like not a good age for a tugboat. And they actually bought it from Alaska and tugged it down or sailed it down all the way to San Francisco.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, the name of this boat was Caleb. So now it's in Half Moon Bay, south of San Francisco. And Caleb was a problem, though. Cable, like you said, was an old boat, an old World War II era tugboat. So it wasn't like, you know, even like a mid seventies houseboat would have been a better option, probably.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  This thing, they couldn't, they had a hard time anchoring it. It was too expensive to maintain. It would drift out of control and hit other boats. So it was not, you know, everything they thought it was going to be. So just, you know, sort of park that for now. I'm going to say that a lot because we're going to be parking a lot of things as this jumps around. And so at this point, we have to introduce some new characters to the scene. Again, had a lot in common with Ziz and Gwen in that they were very, very smart, very much into math and science. Some were trans and some were non-binary. And the first player here is someone named Emma Baranian, a programmer, worked at Google, but left Google because they thought the company was corrupt.

• 13:58Josh Clark?

  Yes, and we should say these people fell into Ziz's orbit because Ziz was a prolific blogger and blogged in a way that like a lot of the language and thoughts and ideas were impenetrable to all but a certain group of people. And these were the people that she ended up attracting through her blog. There's a really great Guardian article about all of this written by Oliver Conroy. And Conroy says that there was a glossary that somebody gave him that one of the, one of Zig's blog followers created of Zig's words. And that when he printed it out, it was 48 pages long.

• 14:39Josh Clark?

  So like she had a certain thing going on that attracted a certain kind of person. And these were the people who were falling into their, into her orbit at this time. And we should also say all of these people were in their Early to mid twenties. I think Ziz was the oldest, maybe at the time at twenty six. So they were all disaffected, brilliant, often trans, vegan, twenty somethings, who were living very close to homelessness in San Francisco in the late 2000 teens.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the second person was Alex Lethem, occasionally known as Somni, a mathematician in this case, went to UCLA, studied at UC Berkeley as well. Then we have Michelle Zoschko, a biometrics researcher, another smarty pants. And then someone named Alice Monday, who was Zoschko's girlfriend, and a bit of a mentor, apparently, according to Ziz, to Ziz. And they started sort of just getting together, talking about their ideas.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  They came up with a name for one of their theories, or sort of their overarching theory called vegan anarcho-transhumanism. And Gwyn Danielson developed this idea that the hemispheres of the brain were basically separate, and they could operate independently from one another. You can be different genders at the same time. You can be good and evil, or good or evil at the same time. And they started these experiments called unihemispheric sleep, where they were saying you can be asleep and awake at the same time. One can be asleep, and then one can be active and awake. And we say this because there are people that have accused Ziz and others in the group of basically keeping you sleep deprived through these experiments,

• 16:28Speaker 02

  potentially leading to a couple of suicides that we'll talk about. And again, I have no judgment on whether or not they are a cult or not at this point. But if you're making a case for cult, sleep deprivation is a very big hallmark of something that oftentimes happens.

• 16:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's like chapter two in the cult leader's playbook. We should say also that unihemispheric sleep theoretically is possible. Humans don't do it, but dolphins do, whales do, migratory birds do. So it's not like it just doesn't exist. It's humans trying to figure out how to do it themselves so they could think longer, more hours in a day, essentially.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this group is getting a little more upset and aggressive toward the official rationalist movement and community. They think again that Miri and SIFAR, you're not doing enough for the animals. You need to expand your, I guess, viewpoint on sentient beings and what that means. And you're also biased against trans people.

• 17:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and there was another thing too that Ziz got really upset about. She came to believe that Miri paid off a blackmailer. Another way to put it is that somebody accused people at Miri of sexual assault or statutory rape, I think it was, and that they paid the person to go away. Some people called it a settlement. To Ziz, it was blackmail, paying off a blackmailer, and that you just did not do that, that that violated some of the basic tenets of the rationalist community and the way of solving problems that they use. So that, with the ethical veganism combined, really separated her from this rationalist community. And with this growing group around her, they decided that they were going to show up,

• 18:12Josh Clark?

  go to the SIFAR seminar conference that was being held in 2019. And they were going to present their problems and their issues in a very rational way, just like SIFAR would want them to. And the people who organized SIFAR were like, "You guys are way too aggressive for our tastes. You can't come to this SIFAR retreat."

• 18:35Speaker 02

  And one of them said, "You've got a Nazi in there." So four of them, Ziz, Gwyn Danielson, Emma Baranian, and it gets a little confusing with all names, and Alex Lethem, they went anyway, and they had their Guy Fawkes masks on, and they had their black hooded robes on. They blocked the exits with their vehicles, and they were like, here, you're gonna listen to us, here's our flyers, here's our problems and our issues. And the staff didn't know what was going on. They called in a report of a possible active shooter. And the cops came. They did not have arms on them or anything like that, but they were arrested on charges of false imprisonment and child endangerment because there were kids there. It was a campground where they met north of San Francisco.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  And defendants, we should point out, the four of them did end up filing a suit against the police alleging mistreatment.

• 19:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so the rationalist community was like, that's it. Not only can you not come to ceasefire retreats, you can't even hang out on the Less Wrong blog. You can't come to our cocktail meetups that we have, which are a lot of fun, so you're probably gonna be upset. They just got booted out. So now this wedge was a gulf. It was a break in communication between the group that would come to be known as Zizians and the rationalist community. And with that, that group became more and more isolated, and their ideas got a little weirder and a little more far out and a little more aggressive because they were all similar

• 20:07Josh Clark?

  people who were feeding off one another in this isolated situation. There weren't people on the outside coming and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's rethink what you're saying. It was like, yeah, that's a really good idea. And it just kept going from there.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  All right. I think that's a good, you can kind of park all that stuff for now because the story kind of jumps around the country a bit. And when we come back, we're gonna pick up with part two, a little north of San Francisco in Vallejo, California.

• 20:50Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 21:12Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 21:53Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 22:20Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 22:26Speaker 04

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing, it's a beautiful thing.

• 22:39Speaker 03

  What the fans experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 22:46Speaker 05

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Hey everybody. The holidays are coming up, so let us throw this out there. Are you prepared to host friends or family, like really prepared? Because there's a difference between having people stay at your house and properly hosting them.

• 23:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what we thought. So maybe it's time for a little refresh. Well, we have a tip. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home, so you can host and celebrate without the stress.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  That's right. Whether you're just swapping out a busted appliance or going all-in on a top-to-bottom home makeover for the holidays, Wayfair has you covered. Thousands of products, every style, every budget.

• 23:27Josh Clark?

  And it's all built for real life. Every item is hand-vetted by specialists with a 10-point quality inspection. And on top of that, with over 20 million verified 5-star reviews, you can have total confidence in all the picks you make.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  So remember, when refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Just head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.

• 24:07Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, one of the outcomes of being like pushed out of the rationalist community, somebody launched a website called zizians.info, it's still around today, and they basically chronicled all the things that they accused the Zizians of being a cult, or that backs up their accusation of the Zizians being a cult. And two of the things are something you referenced earlier. There were two suicides by people who were said to have gone through this unihemispheric sleep, I guess, boot camp. And it resulted in their suicides, allegedly. So the Zizians just have a really bad name at this point. The marina thing is not working

• 24:52Josh Clark?

  out. The rationalist fleet is kind of sinking, as it were. And they just happened to meet somebody at the marina named Curtis Lind, who was a 70-something guy who loved people, loved artists, and had a bunch of land down in Vallejo, and said, "Hey, I want artists to come live down there. You guys seem kind of artsy and odd. Why don't you come live there for really cheap rent?" And the Zizians were like, "Heck, yeah."

• 25:16Speaker 02

  All right, so Curtis Lynn offers, you know, them the chance to go live, you know, they paid rent, but I don't imagine it was very much. And in this, you know, we're going to be introduced to some more players at this point. One of the members of the group that had joined up at this time, her name was Suri Dow, and she was fresh out of high school, and a leftist blogger, and just sort of put a pin in this, at one point in a Discord chat, she said that she had had very dramatic fantasies about becoming a knife murderer. And there's, you know, up to 20 people at this time on Curtis Lynn's property. The neighbors get a little freaked out, they're like, hey, they're walking around naked sometimes, they're wearing gas masks.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  Lynn eventually was like, you guys aren't even paying rent anymore. And they said, yeah, well, there's a COVID eviction moratorium, so what are you going to do about it? So, everything just starts going really pear-shaped, as you say, in like 2022.

• 26:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, also, Chuck, I saw that they would carry katanas around, like samurai swords. So imagine seeing your neighbor walking around naked, wearing a gas mask and carrying a samurai sword, and there's 20 of them. It would be hard, especially in the context of California, to not be like, I think they might be a cult.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Good point.

• 26:31Josh Clark?

  So in 2022, like you said, things just really start to take a terrible shape. In August, Ziz's sister and Emma Baranian went to the police and said, our friend Ziz fell over while boating. So Ziz died during an aboating accident. The Coast Guard launched a huge search, and I guess after 18 hours, they said, there's no way that she could have survived, and she was, although they didn't have the body, they still declared her legally dead. And her sister was given a death certificate. And around the same time, Gwen Danielson, who was one of the OG members of this whole group, she died by suicide, too. So this group is just rocked by these two deaths in 2022.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  That's right. So...

• 27:20Speaker 02

  While this is happening, it's kind of at the same time, this COVID eviction moratorium runs out. So Curtis Lind is like, "All right, now I can actually get these people off my property finally, probably like this November." Mm-hmm. Two days before he was able to do that and sort of drop the news that they were out of there, Suri Dow called them in and said, "Hey, there's a water leak on my property here, or in my trailer. You gotta come and check this out." Curtis Lind says, "I went to address the issue with the water, and I was assaulted. They hit me over the head. They stabbed me with knives. They stabbed me with a katana, the Samurai sword. He ended up losing an eye. He was stabbed through the chest." Apparently, he alleges that Alex Lethem was the one who stabbed him through the chest.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  And so he shot Lethem and Emma Baranian and killed her dead. If you ask the Zizians that were there, they said, "No, that's not what happened. He'd been harassing us, and he just opened fire on us one day."

• 28:18Josh Clark?

  So the authorities tended to agree or believe Curtis Lind. And in fact, Lethem and Dow were arrested, charged with attempted murder, and then also charged with the death of Emma Baranian. Because apparently in California law, if you do something that causes the death of somebody else, even incidentally, you are responsible, or you can be held responsible for that death. And the thinking was that Curtis Lind had to kill Emma Baranian because of the actions of Dow and Lethem, right?

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:52Josh Clark?

  So now Suri Dow and Alex Lethem are in jail in California. That's where they are. So just park that, like you said.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  That's right. So police took another member of the group at the time. She gave her name as Julia Dawson. They said, "Come down to the station with us. We gotta question you." At the station, she seemed like she was having a medical emergency, so they're like, "Well, we gotta get her to the hospital stat." Took her to the hospital, and she disappeared from the hospital. Detectives started investigating what happened there, and they said, "Oh, you know who that was? That was Ziz. Ziz is not dead at all." And they also determined, guess who else was there? Gwen Danielson. She's actually alive as well.

• 29:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So if you've heard our faking your death episode, this is a, it's a big deal to fake your death, especially successfully. So the Zizians never thought they were dead, or if they did, it was for a very short time. It was to protect themselves from the authorities. One of the other things that was really an unsettling find after Curtis Lind was attacked, they found a vat of lie that suggested that they intended to kill him and that they were going to dissolve his body in it. So it's starting to become clear, like, these people are no joke. But at the time, this was like a, an isolated incident. It wasn't related to anything else. The, the authorities did not know that this was a group known as the

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Zizians or anything like that. There were pieces that were starting to lay out on the table, but no one had put them together yet.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. All right. So now you can park all of that, because we're going to move, once again, across the country. This time, Pennsylvania is going to come into the picture. In 2021, so this is, you know, a little bit before these events, Michelle Zoschko that we mentioned and Alice Monday, who were girlfriends with each other, they moved from California to Vermont, to northern Vermont, pretty rural area. And they were joined by a guy named Daniel Blank, another like-minded person. He went to UC Berkeley, bioengineering and electrical engineering co-degree, and then worked at startups. And he was also a vegan and started to sort of get a little more radical about it. Got

• 31:11Speaker 02

  distanced from his parents, started judging them for eating meat. And he hooks up with Monday and Zoschko in Vermont.

• 31:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And so by this time, I think, I don't know if you said it or not, I think you did, Ziz had credited Alice Monday as being like her mentor. She had, she modeled herself largely after Alice Monday, too. Like, she was apparently really assertive with her beliefs and ideas. And Ziz became more and more like that after meeting Alice Monday. By this time, though, she considered Alice Monday an enemy, what she called the vampire.

• 31:46Josh Clark?

  And I guess Zajko was by, by association, guilty by association. And from what I can tell, the, Alice Monday became her enemy because she and maybe Zajko were warning people away from Ziz, saying like, you need to steer clear of this person. So Ziz considered them enemies and she contacted Zajko and said, hey, if you want to earn my trust back, you need to murder Alice. And if you don't, I'm going to come to Vermont and murder you. And this was the kind of a precarious situation as, as far as Zajko was concerned, Michelle Zajko was concerned because, and this really, I think, kind of gets a lot across. She was like, I really had to kind of decide, you know, did I want

• 32:30Josh Clark?

  to murder Alice to make Ziz happy? Or should I kill Ziz? This is the position that Ziz was putting people in by this time, allegedly.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Should we just have Jerry drop in the word allegedly like just every 40 seconds?

• 32:45Josh Clark?

  Allegedly.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Beijing Mr. Herman. Uh, I know I promised Pennsylvania and we've been in Vermont for a second here, but here's where Pennsylvania comes into play. On December 31st, last day of the year, according to many, in 2022, this is about a month and a half after Curtis Lind was stabbed and after that all occurred in Viejo. So Michelle Zajko's parents, Richard and Rita, were murdered in Pennsylvania. They have ring camera footage from a neighbor that shows two people arriving in the house a little before midnight. And on the camera footage, you can hear what sounds like mom, and then a few seconds later, oh my God, oh God, God. And the parents of Michelle Zajko were found shot in the head, kind of execution style in their bedroom.

• 33:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So the Pennsylvania state troopers went to go visit Michelle Zajko in Vermont. And she's like, I haven't been to Pennsylvania in almost 20 years or more than 20 years. And I haven't talked to my parents in a year. So it's not me. I don't know who killed them. And in fact, she showed up to a graveside service a couple of weeks later, and I believe was the Sole beneficiary, maybe of her parents' estate. While she was there for the service, she was accompanied by Daniel Blank. And I guess they had drawn some attention at the hotel because they were both wearing black. And one of them was said to have been carrying a gun around the hotel grounds. So the hotel called the police and the police started surveilling them.

• 34:16Josh Clark?

  And after a very short time, they went into Michelle Zajko's hotel room and searched it. And I think they searched her car, found something like $40,000 in cash. And they were like, we're just gonna take you down to jail. So all this stuff is kind of mounting. We still think you might have killed your parents. We're gonna take you in for questioning. And she said something to the hotel person that was there, said, can you contact Daniel Blank? He's in another room here and tell him what's going on. And the police were like, I think we'd like to talk to him too. Went and got a warrant and then they went to Daniel Blank's room shortly after that.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  That's right. They detained him. They did not, were not able to keep them for very long. They were released pretty quickly. But we should mention too, in addition to that 40 grand in cash, they also found several prepaid cell phones, which is a bit of a potential red flag as well in Michelle Zajko's car. And while they were arresting Blank, there was someone else in the room. They were lying on the floor. They wouldn't move. They wouldn't speak. And that was, drumroll, Ziz. So Ziz is getting around at this point. Police arrested Ziz on obstruction of justice, disorderly conduct, I guess, just for not, you know, complying, I guess, and getting off the floor and stuff like that. It was a misdemeanor charge, but they did hold her in jail for five months.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Instead of, or I guess in lieu of a $500,000 bail, which Ziz could not afford, obviously. And the judge said, all right, we're gonna release you. You gotta promise to pay 10 grand if you miss court. She did return to court for that August hearing in a wheelchair pushed by her mom. But when the trial date came up of December of 2023, she did not show up.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  So I think that's probably a great place for our second break because the story is really heating up now.

• 36:03Josh Clark?

  Sure is.

• 36:19Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road Ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 36:41Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 37:22Josh Clark?

  Hey, everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on. Whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual, and this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather, all timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 37:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury, quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  All right, so now we're gonna find ourselves partially in North Carolina and back in Viejo and also back in Vermont, and we're gonna introduce, what, I guess, three more people, Olivia Bockholdt, Maximilian Snyder, and Milo Youngblut.

• 38:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so Ophelia Bockholdt was German by birth, and she was described as naive, altruistic, and trusting by friends. She fell into Ziz's orbit, I think, by starting out reading her blog. She was trans, she was a math genius, and she was really, really interested in effective altruism. I think she made a couple hundred grand a year as a quant trader in New York and donated all but 10% of it to effective altruism causes. So she was very dedicated to this, but something about Ziz's philosophy grabbed her, and she ended up leaving New York one day, cutting off all contact with everyone else in her

• 39:41Josh Clark?

  former life, and moving to North Carolina, and essentially starting a new life in this orbit of Ziz.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Maximilian Snyder was a data scientist, another super, super smart person, and Milo Youngblut went to an elite private school in Seattle with Maximilian Snyder, and they got together later on after that. And in May of 2024, Youngblut's parents said, "They're missing." I don't know where they went. They and Snyder applied for a marriage license together in November of 2024, which is November 5th specifically, which is Guy Fawkes night. And apparently, they all got attracted to the Zizians just through online. They never met Ziz, they never met Gwen Danielson, they never met any of the other rationalist fleet Zizians at all in person.

• 40:30Josh Clark?

  Yes, that seems to be contested from what I can tell Chuck that there's, it's possible that there's evidence that they did meet them, but I don't know who said what or why, but that's, that's a contested issue. So in January of 2025, Jungblut Bachhold, they're in Vermont. They're a short distance away from Michelle Zajko's house. So shortly after the move where everybody was in Chapel Hill, Jungblut and Bachhold traveled to Vermont and they checked into a hotel that was not too far from Michelle Zajko's house.

• 41:12Josh Clark?

  And I thought initially that they were there to kill Michelle Zajko, but I found that they had made contact with her enough that the police think that she bought them some guns or gave them some guns that she bought. I'm not exactly sure what they were doing in Vermont, but they were, eventually they fell under the radar of the Border Patrol who pulled them over near the Canadian border. And when that happened, they were pulled over, at the very least, Jungblut allegedly got out and just opened fire on the Border Patrol agents.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Border Patrol said that Bachhold attempted to draw a gun. They fired back. It's basically a firefight at this point. And Bachhold and a Border Patrol agent named David Malland were both killed. Jungblut was injured, arrested, obviously on assault charges. Police found hollow point ammunition in their car, found those burner phones wrapped in foil. They found full face respirator mask. They found a night vision monocular. So it's sort of the mayhem starter kit in the car.

• 42:18Josh Clark?

  Sure sounds like it for sure. So yeah, again, I'm not sure what they were doing in, in traveling from North Carolina to Vermont. But this was, this was a big deal and they killed the Border Patrol agent, especially when a pair of trans people dressed in all black just opened fire on a Border Patrol agent and made national news. This is when people started to connect the dots. Not only did you have the attack of Curtis Lynn. A couple of years later, as everybody's starting to go to trial, Suri Dow and Alex Latham are moving toward trial. Curtis Lynn is a star witness. I guess allegedly to shut him up.

• 43:00Josh Clark?

  Maximilian Schneider shows up in Vallejo and murdered Curtis Lynn before he could testify.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this was just three days before this shootout in Vermont. So it's all really coming to a head very quickly and almost real time to where we are today. So on February 16th of this year, three people dressed in all black, driving a couple of white box trucks. All of a sudden, we're in Maryland. They went to Maryland to a property owner and said, hey, can we camp out here for a month? He did not take kindly to that, so he called the cops. And it turns out that was Daniel Blank, Ziz and Michelle Zajko. And they arrested them initially on trespassing charges, but they found a bunch of guns in the trucks. And said, oh, wait, these are the three people that, like you said, they started really connecting the dots at this point in February.

• 43:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I couldn't find out what Michelle Zajko or Daniel Blank were wanted for, but Ziz was wanted for jumping bail for that court case in Pennsylvania.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Well, they were arrested for trespassing.

• 44:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but I don't know what they were wanted for already is what I'm saying. So that was February. As of May, late May, last month, a couple of weeks ago, a couple of days ago, even you could say. Ziz, Michelle Zajko and Daniel Blank are all in jail in Maryland for trespassing. Latham, Dow and Snyder are all in jail in California for the attack on Curtis Lynn and then the murder of Curtis Lynn. And then Young Blute is in Vermont for allegedly trying to draw a gun on the Border Patrol agents during a firefight where a Border Patrol agent was killed. So the, the Zizians are still like.

• 44:46Josh Clark?

  Around essentially, they still will say like, we're not a cult, we're not even called Zizians. But now there's more and more journalists who are starting to dig into it and putting together deeper and deeper profiles of this group and what was going on. But like you said, this is real time, man. This is, there's no resolution to this. This, this is, this is where it stops because this is as far as it's gotten so far.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're still writing. Apparently Daniel Snyder in jail is writing stuff to the rationalist group saying, hey, like you still need to focus on animal rights. And Michelle Zajko is writing, she wrote an open letter to the world. That's in quotes, dated March 9th of this year. And where she was like, hey, I didn't kill my parents. Ziz hasn't done anything wrong. A lot of these people, like, I don't even know those other people. I'm not with Maximilian Schneider. Like, I've never met these people. They're not, Zizians aren't a group, like Josh said. Well, she didn't say like Josh said, that'd be kind of fun though. But they're not even associated with us as a group that we don't refer to ourselves as Zizians.

• 45:52Josh Clark?

  Right. So Alice Monday and Gwen Danielson are thought to be alive still. Alice Monday I saw is thought to be in hiding, that she's very scared of Ziz and the Zizians, especially now. And then there's other people, there's people in the rationalist community who were willing to speak to journalists about this, but not, not like anonymously, because they're scared of the Zizians too. So it's still a thing, even though Ziz is in jail. And it's just a question of where it goes from here. But just to kind of wrap everything up, we'll go back to Half Moon Bay, where the Caleb was docked in the Berkeley Marina.

• 46:32Josh Clark?

  And since the Zizians abandoned it, it has sunk in the marina, half sunk, and is a nuisance to have, that you have to get around now.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Poor Caleb.

• 46:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Caleb's like, what did I ever do?

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:47Josh Clark?

  I just wanted to help people. I'm a born tugboat.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  I know.

• 46:52Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about this stuff, go look it up. There's a lot of stuff to read and just keep an eye on the news. We definitely will be too. And since I said that, I think it's time for listener mail, Chuck.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  This is from James. Hey, guys. I'm fascinated that terms we take for granted often come from slurs meant to suppress, and in some cases, similar slurs. I love knowing that pagan came from a word that, as Chuck puts it, means bumpkin. It was meant to belittle and diminish, and now it covers a huge chunk of the faith pie. I was reminded of the word jaywalking. I feel like we've talked about this in something.

• 47:29Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  The origins of jaywalking, maybe?

• 47:32Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  As cars became a thing and started driving with some velocity in the places where people were used to walking, big car had to make sure they weren't the bad guy. They had to rewrite convention and get people, pedestrians specifically, off the road. So what did they do? Slurs, obviously. If I remember correctly, jay, like paganis, meant an uneducated country folk, too stupid not to walk in the road like a dingus. This word must have worked because now it is a legal term to describe the act of crossing a street at a non-crosswalk. Big car won. Constantine won. Thanks for the podding, guys, and for filling my brain with stuff. That is James.

• 48:08Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, James. That's a good one. And I think you jogged my memory to an episode about like how cars became the dominant mode of transportation in the US.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Sounds like that might have been the one.

• 48:20Josh Clark?

  I think that was. That was a good one. That was a sleeper episode.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 48:24Josh Clark?

  If you want to be like James and send us an interesting email that we may or may not read on the air, but we'd still like to receive anyway, you can send it off to [email protected].

• 48:38Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 48:54Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordibility. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big Savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of Vivgard. Vivgard is also known as its generic name, Fgard Tigamod Alpha Fcam. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their Free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals, and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends, or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money, and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com.

• 50:27Speaker 06

  Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored.

• 50:30Speaker 07

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.