What's Permaculture All About?

Permaculture is a growing trend in the world of farming and home landscaping. It's basically a design principle that emphasizes sustainability and the would-be, natural ecosystem of an area. Simple concepts like planting downhill from a pond and using gravity to feed plants to planting native plants and vegetation that work well together are hallmarks of permaculture. Learn all about this eco-friendly trend today. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:42Speaker 03

  Hey, everybody. Think Spring is here with our Think Spring playlist. And it's Chuck here to introduce today's episode. What's permaculture all about? Permaculture is a pretty great thing. And it's, you know, if you don't know anything about it, this can, this can teach you all about it, and it may just change the way you live your life there at your house. So give it a try.

• 2:09Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

• 2:19Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chipper Chuck Bryant and there's Jerry Roland and we're all in great moods, everybody, because it's Stuff You Should Know time. Everything else just falls to the wayside when we record Stuff You Should Know. It's just, it's the reason we love doing it still after a thousand episodes.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  You realize every single listener right now is thinking, "Why are they in a bad mood? And why is Josh being so weird?"

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  I don't think I'm being weird. Am I being, am I overselling it?

• 2:50Speaker 04

  I think so.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  Oh, oh, sorry.

• 2:52Speaker 04

  It makes it sound like we all three were in a big fistfight and then Jerry hit record.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  Right. She's like, just jammed a Kleenex up her nose to staunch the bleeding.

• 3:02Speaker 04

  Uh, I am recovering a bit because we just got back from New York City.

• 3:06Josh Clark?

  Dude, it has been a week.

• 3:08Speaker 04

  I know.

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  So we did, we did show, a show Sunday, a show Monday, and a show Tuesday, all sold out at the Bell House, traveled home Wednesday, and are recording today, Thursday.

• 3:19Speaker 04

  Yes, and I just want to say, there's no way that people will ever hear Tuesday's episode because it was the filthiest thing we've ever done on stage.

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  It was, seriously, man.

• 3:32Speaker 04

  I don't know what got into us. I think it was night three of three. Uh, so that is for the 350 people in that room.

• 3:40Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 3:42Speaker 04

  I hope they enjoyed it.

• 3:43Josh Clark?

  It was fun.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  It was fun.

• 3:44Josh Clark?

  And come on out whenever we do a live show. You never know if we're just gonna be like, "This one's not getting released. Let's just go crazy."

• 3:50Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 3:51Josh Clark?

  You know, especially, it was a 21 and up show, which is really what-

• 3:53Speaker 04

  Well, that's why we, for sure why we did it.

• 3:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what took the feedbag off, you know?

• 3:58Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 3:59Josh Clark?

  Isn't that a saying? I think so. Put the feedback on, take it off. Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. It's not really, but we'll just press forward. How about that? Let's do. So Chuck, I know that you know this, but not everybody knows this. I had a personal conversation with one Charles C. Mann, who wrote my favorite book of all time, 1491. That is correct. And I was talking to Mr. Mann, and he has a, I was talking to him, I've got a show coming out on existential risks eventually. But, and he's gonna be in it. It's just like interviewed for it. But he has a book coming out this January. And it's called The Wizard and the Prophet. Have you heard of it?

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  No, but did you just say that he's gonna be a part of existential risks? Yeah, he's an interviewee. Ah, that's fantastic. Yeah, it's gonna be pretty, I was really psyched to just be able to talk to him. And even better than that, like, you know, we were kind of rapping for a few minutes beforehand. Sure. And it was just as calm and casual as I had always like envisioned talking to him. That's amazing. Would be. Yeah, it was a really, really neat conversation. But he was telling me about the book he has coming out, The Wizard and the Prophet. And it's basically about him trying to find out how we can possibly, or even if it is possible, sustain 10 billion people on planet Earth. Yeah.

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  And not just sustain, meaning like, you know, keeping them alive, but how could we do it sustainably? And he goes back and starts digging in and finds that there's this longstanding headbutt between the techno optimists, the people who are like, well, we humans are smart enough to invent our way out of any problem. Yeah. And the people who are like, no, we need to really like mitigate a lot of things that we're doing right now to make sure that we actually can keep doing this for the foreseeable future. And part of it is on Norman Borlaug. Is he the wizard? He is the wizard. It's actually, absolutely right. The prophet is a guy named William Vogt,

• 6:03Josh Clark?

  V O G T, I believe is his name. And he, I don't know nearly as much about him as Norman Borlaug, which is to say I know basically zero about him. But he's the prophet. So I will know all about him when the book comes out in January. I'm psyched about it. But as I was researching this permaculture article, I was like, you can really see that that same headbutt, that same push and pull between people who are saying, we need sustainability. And other people are like, we need to feed, you know, billions and billions of people.

• 6:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:34Josh Clark?

  And that really comes together in the debate over permaculture and whether it works or whether it is just, just a pie in the sky kind of idea.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  Well, I have a little something to say.

• 6:47Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 6:47Speaker 04

  I am a bit of an, well, not a bit, I'm an urban permaculturist.

• 6:53Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 6:54Speaker 04

  We had, not me, as like, I don't know much, well, I do know about this stuff now after researching it. But we are redoing our front and backyards and we hired a permaculture company to do so.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  Really? The permaculture pros?

• 7:11Speaker 04

  That's not their name, but maybe it should be.

• 7:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, so we're, we are like, right in the middle of making our small little piece of Atlanta, a permaculture, urban permaculture.

• 7:25Josh Clark?

  I know, it's hard to say now that I'm saying it out loud.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  An urban perm habitat, if you will.

• 7:30Josh Clark?

  Urb perm.

• 7:32Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 7:33Josh Clark?

  So.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  So I'll be peppering, you know, little things here and there.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  I think that would help a lot, man. Because permaculture, as it turns out, and I didn't know really anything about it until we started researching this,

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  it is a woolly idea. It's tough to pin down, which is really weird because it's actually a set of design principles meant to grow food for people in a way that's sustainable and not harmful. And it basically stands in contradiction of what you would consider like, big, modern agriculture, which is, we grow one kind of food and we squeeze as much as we possibly can out of it from the ground we have, using as much artificial resources as we possibly need to, to increase our yield.

• 8:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, and that's like, people throw around the word sustainable or unsustainable. And maybe people, sometimes folks don't even stop to think about what that means. Sustainable, or I guess we'll, we'll start with unsustainable. That means that you are, you're depleting resources around you and you're depending very much on bringing in different resources.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  To make that thing work.

• 8:45Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Like, you're not just using what's available, like, that's what sustainable would be. You're using what's available, it all works together to ideally sustain itself without saying, "Well, now I need to bring in this thing."

• 8:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 04

  From way over here to make this, these 300 acres of corn grow.

• 9:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I've gotta go burn a bunch of fossil fuels to create nitrogen-based fertilizer, and it's not going to attach to the soil very well, so a lot of it will run off and be wasted. And even worse, it'll end up in a pond, which will create an algae bloom which sucks up all of the dissolved oxygen, which creates a fish kill. That's unsustainable.

• 9:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 9:24Josh Clark?

  And it's weird, because I hadn't really thought about that either, Chuck, but as growing up as like kids who were sentient in the 90s, you hear unsustainable, and it's just basically, in your mind, equated with evil. Like, almost intentionally malicious acts against the earth. And that's just not necessarily the case. And that's another thing about like Norman Borlaug, the wizard. He had the greatest of intentions, but you can also lay at his feet a lot of the ecological problems we're facing right now because of agriculture and the agricultural practices he helped pioneer.

• 10:01Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 10:01Josh Clark?

  In order to feed a bunch of people. So there's this tension between unsustainability and sustainability, but it's also a tension between what's realistic and what's not, you know?

• 10:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's definitely a little sticky.

• 10:12Josh Clark?

  It is a little sticky.

• 10:13Speaker 04

  But permaculture basically is trying to create like a harmonious, holistic approach to farming, and whether it be a large farm, or like in my case, like an urban, small urban plot. And like I said, we'll kind of go over both of those through my lens.

• 10:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:33Speaker 04

  And then through the larger ideas of the farm. And it's not like, Robert Lamb wrote this article from Stuff to Blow Your Mind, he did a good job with it.

• 10:41Josh Clark?

  Always does.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  He does, but he does point out that you shouldn't... It doesn't necessarily mean that you have to go back to caveman days and like you have to live like Tuk Tuk and scavenge the earth.

• 10:52Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:53Speaker 04

  He said to think of it in terms of a river, like you're a boat floating down a river. And you're sustained by that river, but you're also navigating it as well with your rudder.

• 11:06Josh Clark?

  And if you have to pee right now, it just increased tenfold.

• 11:10Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 11:11Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, it's not like just passively taking from the land what it has to offer. There's still management of it, right?

• 11:19Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:20Josh Clark?

  But the idea behind that management of it is managing the land in a way that the land is happy with.

• 11:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, kind of working with what you got.

• 11:30Josh Clark?

  Like you can walk past a dog that's just sitting there looking at you and maybe, you know, give it like a wink or something like that and keep walking. That's passive. But if you stop and scratch it behind the ear, you're managing that dog in a way or something like that. You're at least interacting with it more and the dog likes it. You could also walk past a dog and like poke it in the ribs.

• 11:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:51Josh Clark?

  That's interacting with it in a way that the dog wouldn't like. Permaculture's the middle one, right?

• 11:56Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 11:57Josh Clark?

  So you're saying, hey, I want to get something out of you, like a good feeling. So I'm going to scratch you behind the ear, earth. And again, like you said, you're doing that by trying to create a system, whether it's your little plot of land or a full-scale, industrial-sized farm, in a way that it has its sustainable, meaning it requires as few external inputs as possible.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 12:20Josh Clark?

  But, sorry, I just need to point it again. It's still being managed. It's still being managed by you, just in a harmonious way.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think there's a word for the other thing where you just let everything do its thing, right?

• 12:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's nature, maybe.

• 12:36Speaker 04

  Like wilding or something, or rewilding? Haven't we talked about that?

• 12:41Josh Clark?

  No, we never did.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  I'm probably wrong, anyway.

• 12:44Josh Clark?

  Although, we also thought we didn't do a cat episode, so who knows if we've talked about it before or not?

• 12:49Speaker 04

  Uh, alright, so this all goes back to, uh, Australia. And see you in September of next year, Australia.

• 12:56Josh Clark?

  Yup.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  Right?

• 12:58Josh Clark?

  Yup.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  Get excited.

• 13:00Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, you just sold us a million tickets with that accent, buddy.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  Uh, and New Zealand.

• 13:07Josh Clark?

  You gotta take it better than that.

• 13:10Speaker 04

  Well, no, I'm, I'm super excited about going to New Zealand.

• 13:13Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 13:13Speaker 04

  I didn't want to not mention that.

• 13:15Josh Clark?

  You say, "And New Zealand."

• 13:16Speaker 04

  And New Zealand. Uh, so, in Australia, in the 1970s, there were a couple of dudes named Bill Mollison and David Holmgren.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  And I imagine they were sitting around smoking a joint one night, in, in the version that I have in my head.

• 13:32Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  When they dreamed up the word "permaculture" in 1978, uh, which is basically what we've been talking about. This is just, put a word on it.

• 13:41Josh Clark?

  Actually, two words: permanent and agriculture, right?

• 13:44Speaker 04

  Good point. And they said, "Let's join those up." And he said, "Right."

• 13:50Josh Clark?

  And that was it?

• 13:50Speaker 04

  That's how it went down. Uh, and it's a self-sustaining alternative to, like, what you were talking about, which is mass production of a single crop. And there are three basic ethics to the permaculture movement.

• 14:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 04

  Care for the earth, care for the people, and then setting limits on population and consumption.

• 14:09Josh Clark?

  Right. And so, Mollison, I believe, was a professor at the time, and Holmgren was a student, and they, they split within a few years. They had creative differences, I guess you could kind of call it.

• 14:23Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah?

• 14:23Josh Clark?

  They both, like, pursued permaculture, but through different ways. So, Mollison is frequently, um, accused, or was, I think he may have passed, um, accused of being kind of a, uh, dogmatic,

• 14:38Josh Clark?

  charismatic egomaniac, maybe?

• 14:40Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 14:41Josh Clark?

  Where it was like, "It's my way, you're the highway." And that that extended to even principles of permaculture, right? Like if he said it, it was just, that was just true. Whereas Holmgren apparently took a little more of a pragmatic approach to studying it, finding out the best practices, discarding the ones that didn't work, even if they were like precious to everybody, including the entire permaculture movement. And and movement is actually the right word because there is like this definite, well, like Molaison put the cult in permaculture. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's definitely an adherence to it that's kind of fervent, you know, that

• 15:24Josh Clark?

  that the whole movement gets criticized for rightfully or wrongly.

• 15:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:28Josh Clark?

  But they they're both kind of, I think the fact that they did split probably added to this field even more because there's two different courses of study or of thinking about it at least that were able to develop in tandem.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, and this stuff is nothing new. They didn't invent this idea because Tuk Tuk and the gang way back in the ancient days did things like this. They worked with what they had. They didn't have 400 acres of corn. They had, they did forest farming. They had crop rotation. They composted. They had multiple crops. And they were not just out to be leading pioneers in environmentalism. They were, that was just the way you worked the earth back then.

• 16:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 16:10Speaker 04

  And that's a lot of what permaculture is all about is returning to this idea of just sort of doing it the smart, right way. And again, this is probably not going to be the thing that feeds the world, but that's not to say you can't have a permaculture movement and farms and urban permaculture going on.

• 16:31Josh Clark?

  Well, that's one of the things that it gets criticized about is that people who are big time adherents of permaculture do tend to say like, yeah, this is, this is what we need to feed the world. And if we don't do this, then there's not going to be people around to feed because we're going to wreck the earth and die from climate change.

• 16:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I get that, but I think I come from the like reality camp and you're not going to undo conventional, modern farming.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  You're not gonna just completely supplant that anymore. It's kinda too late.

• 17:05Josh Clark?

  I, I agree with you. I, I'm of the same mindset.

• 17:08Speaker 04

  You know?

• 17:09Josh Clark?

  I do think, though, that you, the, these practices, or most of them, should be incorporated as best as possible.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  Sure, that'd be great.

• 17:17Josh Clark?

  So I think there's a happy medium between, you know, big, big time monoculture agriculture and pure permaculture, just because they're both probably unsustainable for what we need, which is to feed a bunch of people in a way that doesn't wreck the earth.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  Agreed.

• 17:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm with you, man.

• 17:36Speaker 04

  Should we take a break?

• 17:37Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  All right, we're gonna take a little, uh, little pause for the cause and then come back. That was so corny, I sound like a radio DJ.

• 17:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was great.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  Uh, and then come back and talk about design principles of permaculture, right after this.

• 18:00Speaker 05

  First thought is like, wow, how are we gonna do all this?

• 18:02Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 18:05Speaker 03

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience, and Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 18:21Speaker 05

  It was gonna rival anything that was already built, and that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 18:29Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 18:35Speaker 06

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 18:44Speaker 06

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 18:49Speaker 05

  With the fan's experience, it's incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 18:52Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 18:56Speaker 07

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 19:05Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 19:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do or buy or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly. It's usually a new rug.

• 19:16Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  That's right. Whatever your style, whatever your budget, whatever you're looking for, Wayfair makes it easy to find it. And you can feel good about your purchases too, because Wayfair verified products go through a thorough 10-point quality inspection.

• 19:34Josh Clark?

  And with over 20 million five-star reviews, Wayfair must be doing something right. You can find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 20:00Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of VivGart, VivGart is also known as its generic name, Efgartigimod alfa Fcab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 20:36Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 21:01Josh Clark?

  Okay, you back? We're back? Are we back?

• 21:04Speaker 04

  I'm back.

• 21:05Josh Clark?

  Okay, I'm back too. Jerry, you back? She's back.

• 21:08Speaker 04

  She's back.

• 21:09Josh Clark?

  So, like I said early on Chuck, the permaculture is a little... It's woolly. It's a woolly idea. There's so many different definitions of it. And as a result, its image kind of suffers in the mind of rational skeptics, right?

• 21:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 21:24Josh Clark?

  But I did find one definition of it that I thought really got the whole point across.

• 21:31Speaker 04

  Hit me.

• 21:32Josh Clark?

  "The conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive systems, which have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural ecosystems." That's a big one. There's a second half even. "It is the harmonious integration of the landscape with people, providing their food, energy, shelter, and other material and non-material needs in a sustainable way."

• 21:54Speaker 04

  That is a great definition.

• 21:56Josh Clark?

  I agree wholeheartedly, and I'm not sure who the actual person who said or wrote it was because it was misattributed to at least three different people. But regardless, it's a great definition.

• 22:07Speaker 04

  We should just throw your name in there too.

• 22:08Josh Clark?

  Sure, we'll say I said it. So you said, you brought up the three basic ethics, right? The care for earth, care for people, and setting limits on population.

• 22:17Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 22:17Josh Clark?

  I feel like we should kind of go over those a little in depth, don't you think?

• 22:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, care for earth is, it's not just... Like, a lot of this is about plants, of course, but it's also animals and insects, and how the air moves through the area, and minerals in the earth. And it's basically respecting all of the things within the ecosystem.

• 22:41Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  How's that?

• 22:42Josh Clark?

  I think that's great.

• 22:44Speaker 04

  What about people?

• 22:45Josh Clark?

  Care for people, right? So basically, that's saying like, that there's an importance to community. Every person isn't just an island, right? And that, this is a big one too, that access to resources is a human right. And it's easy to take that for granted, you know, where, in places where you have easy access to land, or water, or something like that. But in places as diverse as Flint, Michigan... Or Central America, their, their, the access to good stuff like water is highly restricted, or the water's just not good.

• 23:26Josh Clark?

  So the idea that everybody should have easy, cheap, if not free, access to something like clean water is, that's a, that's a big one. That's, it's kind of radical in a weird way these days.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, and as far as the limits on population and consumption, Robert puts it as recognizing how you have to reinvest money and surplus labor and energy into caring for the planet.

• 23:50Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:51Speaker 04

  Like, it's, it's, it takes work.

• 23:53Josh Clark?

  Right. So, those are like the three ethics. That's not how you go permaculture. That's just kind of the basis for the designs to permaculture, right?

• 24:03Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 24:04Josh Clark?

  And I think you said that this is, this is not new, right? This is something that's been around for a very long time, or these, some of these ideas or the sustainable practices are adopted from like generations and generations of proven techniques, right?

• 24:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 24:21Josh Clark?

  Which is pretty interesting, if you ask me. That's another thing, too. If, if you, if you have not read, have you read 1491 yet?

• 24:27Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, man. You have to read it. It talks about this kind of stuff where, like, they, they, they, from just looking into it, they've, and they've found that there's all these sophisticated land management techniques that were just totally lost to time until archaeologists started discovering them. And at first, they didn't even realize what they were looking at. And they'd be like, well, there's a lot of kind of weird hills in this, this area. It's otherwise pretty flat. And then they realized, oh, wait, this is an entire system of berms that used to be planted, and in between the berms were aquaculture ponds where they raised fish. And they, they were just doing all this sophisticated stuff that no one had any idea. That book is just all about chasing that stuff down and figuring it out.

• 25:13Josh Clark?

  So, so good, Chuck. One day, you'll read it, right?

• 25:15Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 25:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  So, before the break, I promised some design principles, and there are, I believe, like 10 of these in our article. And it breaks down like this, and this is... This is talking about a farm, but we have incorporated in this company that's come in is incorporating these, most of these same principles within like our place as small as our backyard. For instance, zones, we have divided our yard up into zones now.

• 25:44Speaker 04

  And basically, in the case of a farm, it's a little bit different. They divide areas into zones based on, based on the, in all this stuff, it just sort of makes sense. And it's all, seems like it would be intuitive and how Tuk Tuk would have done it. So, it divides into zones based on like how much attention certain things need on the farm. And what does it require out of people in the different areas? And so if you think of it as a circle, you got your farm in the center. So obviously, the stuff that needed the most attention would be closest to the center where the people are. And then as you go out and out, the activity decreases, like the human activity. And things are allowed, like maybe trees to grow a little more wildly.

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. So like the zone is kind of like ripples in, in a pond or something, right? They're concentric circles.

• 26:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:38Josh Clark?

  Radiating from the center. And I guess the center is the actual farm or in this case, your house.

• 26:42Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah.

• 26:45Josh Clark?

  Okay. So, that's understandable enough. And then you look into something called sectors. And that's kind of similar, it seems like, but it's actually not. With sectors, again, the center of the whole, the whole permaculture land or whatever, is the farm where the people live or whatever. And then it, the, the zone, the sectors radiate outward. So the whole thing is one big circle around the center. But this time it's sliced into like, like pizza slices, basically.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  All right, I'm hungry enough.

• 27:21Josh Clark?

  Okay, so, but with that, so that doesn't mean like you do sectors or zones. These are two different ways of looking at the land that will overlay one another, right? And I've seen a couple of places that recommend if you're setting up a permaculture farm, you want to spend basically an entire year doing nothing but observing. Don't plant anything, don't cut anything down, don't dig a pond, don't do anything like that. Just observe, figure out where the sun is at different parts of the year. Where does the wind come from? Where does the water go? Are there pollutants that come onto the property that you need to, you know, manage? Where do the animals, like if there's deer that come in and eat the garden,

• 28:06Josh Clark?

  like where would they be coming from? And so that's what you base the sectors on. And then that creates kind of like this underlying map beneath the zones. Does that make sense?

• 28:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 28:20Josh Clark?

  Okay, and I got that one right?

• 28:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think so.

• 28:23Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 28:24Speaker 04

  I mean, I'm sure a permaculture expert would say, oh, boys.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  Relative location is another important part of permaculture. That is basically designing things, and again, in a way that makes sense relative to one another. So the great example that Robert gives is planting a crop downhill from a pond. That way, it's downhill, you don't need to install a pump system. The whole idea is sustainability. And so if you can have the stuff you need to water downhill from your water, then you have just created a sustainable environment.

• 28:59Josh Clark?

  Right. And that one is, there's a, it's an actual design principle, like David Holmgren came up with 12 of them. One of them was called integrate rather than segregate, and that one's definitely part of that.

• 29:12Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 29:13Josh Clark?

  There's also having single elements with multiple functions, right?

• 29:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:18Josh Clark?

  So going back to that, like a pond example. A pond also not only serves as a source for irrigation, but it's also a water source for your livestock. And depending on where you put it, it also acts as a barrier between your livestock and the edge of your property.

• 29:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, so you don't even need a fence. Because cows aren't going to swim across the pond.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  No, you try to find one doing it, they won't do it.

• 29:43Speaker 04

  Or a hedge, a hedge, lovely hedge can act as a wind block, things like that.

• 29:49Josh Clark?

  Right, or, and, and it can also like produce seeds that your chickens eat, right?

• 29:53Speaker 04

  Right, or shade if you need shade.

• 29:55Josh Clark?

  Right, and so all that, I mean, that just makes like total sense. Of course you want to do that, but when you stop and think about the fact that they don't do this on big, modern farms. Like this stuff is not, that's just wasted area where you could be planting more corn, you know what I mean?

• 30:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, and they don't do, most people don't think about this when they're designing their home backyards either. They want, they just say, this looks pretty, that looks pretty. And it, and it may be laid out in such a way that it's completely unharmonious and working against each other at times.

• 30:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Like, why is that thing dying? It's so pretty. It's like, well, it's not, it's not where it should be.

• 30:36Josh Clark?

  Another permaculture principle that stands in stark opposition to monoculture is having a single thing,

• 30:45Josh Clark?

  have just one function, or have, okay, a bunch of different things serving as failsafes to one another. See what I'm saying?

• 30:53Speaker 04

  Right.

• 30:53Josh Clark?

  So like that pond can also provide water, right? So it's a, it's a water reservoir, but you may also have rain barrels on site as well. So you have all these different things serving multiple functions, but also serving backups to the functions that they share with one another.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  Right.

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  And again, this is, the idea that you're doing this if you take the time to diversify. Like this is where the idea that you, you shouldn't put all of your eggs in one basket, it came from the farm.

• 31:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:26Josh Clark?

  And this is, this, like some of these principles are just getting back to that very simple maxim, which is, you, you have to diversify, and the more you diversify, the better off you're going to be if something befalls. Like if an avian flu wipes out your chicken flock, well, if all you do is raise chickens, you're ruined.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:44Josh Clark?

  Your, your family's going to starve, you're going to lose all of your money, and the farm's going to be taken from you. If chickens are just one part of a larger holistic farm you have going on, then you lose your chickens, and that's awful. But you still have, you know, you can, you can cut off a cow's foot and chew on that for the winter.

• 32:02Speaker 04

  You know where the chicken and the eggs in the basket comes from, right?

• 32:06Josh Clark?

  Where?

• 32:06Speaker 04

  Little Bobby Joe going out to get the chicken eggs one morning. Taking one basket. He says, "Paw, I got them. Don't fret." And then he trips on the way back and breaks all his eggs. And Paw says, "Put all the chicken eggs in one basket. Now we ain't got no eggs." And then Bobby Joe says, "Well, then Paw have more kids or get more baskets."

• 32:30Josh Clark?

  That's right. And that happened in December of 1842 in Georgia.

• 32:36Speaker 04

  That's right. Those were my relatives.

• 32:38Josh Clark?

  That was a great, were they chalk tall?

• 32:40Speaker 04

  No, no, no. This is from the other side of the family.

• 32:42Josh Clark?

  The other side, okay.

• 32:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:44Josh Clark?

  I was gonna say.

• 32:45Speaker 04

  The redneck side. Energy efficiency is a big deal, using energy efficient designs, whether or not you're straight up using like wind power or solar, or you can just simply, like I said, build things in a way where you have natural windbreaks built in or places to allow the wind to come through and spread seed and stuff like that.

• 33:06Josh Clark?

  Right. My favorite dude of all is the biological resources.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  Let's hear it.

• 33:12Josh Clark?

  So it's just basically using nature to help solve the problems that you have, right? So Molaison, one of the creators of it, what is his first name again? Bill, Bill Molaison. He had a saying, "You don't have a snail problem, you have a duck deficiency." Which is to say that if-

• 33:30Speaker 04

  That was a great T-shirt, too.

• 33:32Josh Clark?

  It was, for a little while. It was almost outsold gas, grass, or, you know.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. No one rides for free.

• 33:39Josh Clark?

  Right. But the premise of it is that if you are overrun with snails, get more ducks because the ducks are gonna eat the snails and it's fine. It's good to have ducks because they do other stuff, too, like they walk around and poop all over your property.

• 33:54Speaker 04

  Everywhere.

• 33:54Josh Clark?

  Fertilizing it as they're doing it, right? So just to kind of take a step back and look at it like, okay, what, how? Just say like, what would nature do? That's a great way to solve your problems through permaculture. Another one is using pigs.

• 34:12Josh Clark?

  Or chickens to till the ground and to actually rotate where you plant crops every year. And so this year's pigpen is next year's cropland because you can move the pigs on to another area and they'll turn it all muddy and turn it up and get it ready for planting, just like they did for this year's cropland that you're using now.

• 34:33Speaker 04

  Pretty great. Insects, too.

• 34:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 34:36Speaker 04

  Very big thing to bring in the right kinds of plants, to attract the right kinds of insects, to take care of the wrong kinds of insects.

• 34:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:44Speaker 04

  Totally great. I love it.

• 34:46Josh Clark?

  This raises an issue, though, too. One of the criticisms of permacultures, it's like, well, where are you going to bring in those insects from, right? So if, for example, if you order ladybugs online, it can actually be really bad for the ladybugs that live in your area because if they are lab-raised or farm-raised ladybugs, they very frequently carry a parasite that you're bringing now into your neighborhood and you can wipe out the existing native ladybug population. So what do you do? Well, the permaculture way would be to say, I need to attract more native ladybugs because I've got aphids on my lemon trees. So how do I do that?

• 35:25Josh Clark?

  Well, you just plant more high-pollinating plants like sunflowers and voila, native ladybugs parasite-free.

• 35:35Speaker 04

  Love it. I didn't know people bought ladybugs online.

• 35:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 04

  That's a thing?

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  I know that because I've had aphids before. I looked into it.

• 35:42Speaker 04

  You said, "Doc, I've got aphids in my lemon tree." He said, "Come here."

• 35:47Josh Clark?

  One in a million shot.

• 35:49Speaker 04

  Plant succession is another design principle. If you think about how land was before people were messing around with it in a natural scene, things would just sort of grow and develop as they, as nature intended. And fields might be barren and then grow into weeds and that might eventually grow into plants, that may eventually grow into trees. And then, what do you know? You have a forest.

• 36:20Josh Clark?

  Right. So Robert makes the case like that's apparently the natural progression of a temperate area.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:26Josh Clark?

  That if you leave it alone for long enough, it's going to turn into a forest. I didn't realize that. I guess it makes sense. So this is basically saying, well, how can we, how can we do that? If that's the way the plant, if that's the way that the area wants to be, how can we accommodate that while also getting, you know, food, food staples from that too?

• 36:45Speaker 04

  Right.

• 36:46Josh Clark?

  Uh, there's also nutrient recycling, which is basically composting. And I was thinking the other day, I don't answer enough when asked what my favorite episode is. Composting is definitely up there.

• 36:58Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah?

• 36:58Josh Clark?

  That was a great one.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  All right.

• 37:00Josh Clark?

  If you're digging this episode at all, go listen to composting if you haven't already. It's a good one.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. And finally, diversity, uh, raising multiple crops, um, having different kinds of animals. Uh, like we said, we've kind of been beaten up on corn, but that's, the idea is to not have, you know, a thousand acres of a thing and have many different things. So like you said, the benefits there, if, if something comes along that is an illness to a crop, you're not wiped out completely.

• 37:31Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:32Speaker 04

  You know?

• 37:33Josh Clark?

  So speaking of wiping out, let's take a break for a second. Okay?

• 37:37Speaker 04

  Are you wiped out?

• 37:38Josh Clark?

  I'm a little wiped. I need to regenerate here.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 37:40Josh Clark?

  Okay. We'll be right back.

• 37:53Josh Clark?

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• 40:27Josh Clark?

  Okay, we're back. I'm feeling restored, Chuck.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  Good. Well, you took a nap on my shoulder, and that always helps.

• 40:32Josh Clark?

  I know. I got a little drool on your sleeve. I'm sorry.

• 40:35Speaker 03

  No big deal.

• 40:36Josh Clark?

  Okay, so when you're talking about this, like, design principles are great and good, and they are really interesting to me. I think ecology is incredibly fascinating.

• 40:49Josh Clark?

  But there to to actually feed people, you have to take them into action and like do something. And people have been trying this, right? To varying degrees of success. And more importantly, to varying degrees of scientific study. I ran across a professor in, I believe, the UK at a place called Schumacher College. Her name is Bethan Stagg. And she, I get the impression Schumacher College is a little crunchy.

• 41:18Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 41:19Josh Clark?

  I think they're the fighting granola.

• 41:20Speaker 04

  A little hippy dippy?

• 41:22Josh Clark?

  Just a tad. But one of the things they teach is permaculture. And so Bethan Stagg, one of the professors there, basically studied this permaculture next to traditional like gardening plots that are the same size. They're like, everything's the same, the amount of wind and rain and sun they're getting. The difference is, one is one is cultivated in a through permaculture methods. The other one's more just like traditional gardening, like go buy fertilizer and stuff like that.

• 41:53Speaker 04

  Who won?

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  It depends on your definition of one.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  Well, which one was lying dead in a field afterward? The herb, the regular gardener or the other person?

• 42:03Josh Clark?

  They both got a couple of good licks in on one another.

• 42:06Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 42:06Josh Clark?

  Ultimately, I think most people would say that the traditional gardening or the the normal, modern gardening method won.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 42:13Josh Clark?

  The reason why it won was because for a hundred, for every hundred square meters of land, it yielded 13 kilograms of edible food.

• 42:25Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 42:26Josh Clark?

  The permaculture one yielded 2.3 kilograms per 100 meters. So far, far, far less food was grown. But there's a couple of things you got to point out here. There was also far, far, far less time put into the permaculture plot because that's one of the tenets of permaculture is just like, like plant this stuff and then just forget about it. You're not ever supposed to mess with it again, except to to harvest stuff. There's an emphasis on perennials rather than annuals. There's far less inputs that are meant to be made into it. It's just supposed to be like a, like a little engine you you build and then start and it just keeps going forever.

• 43:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:03Josh Clark?

  So far less time and far less effort on the permaculture side. So it kind of wins in that respect, right? But then also, there was, over this three-year study, there were also at least one year where the weather was really bad, and so the normal, modern gardening suffered as a result, whereas the permaculture one, which was more diversified, had about the same yield as the other years. So, they both won. They're all winners. It's like a soccer game.

• 43:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I think the idea too is, it's not like, like, that's the kind of test that should be carried out over 100 years, almost.

• 43:41Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 43:41Speaker 04

  And the whole point is, though, still, that permaculture is not like, they're not saying, "We shall create more yield than any other farm." That's not the whole point.

• 43:51Josh Clark?

  Again, though, it depends on who you talk to. There are definitely permaculture adherents out there who think that anyone who doesn't use permaculture is an idiot who's ruining the planet, and this is the way.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  No, I'm not saying that, but are they saying that they can, they can provide more yield than conventional farming?

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  I think if you backed them into a corner, they would probably hedge that, but I think that when they're amongst themselves, they may, yes.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  You're like, "You guys totally know we can't, no, okay, we just won't talk about it."

• 44:21Josh Clark?

  Shut up, Simon.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  So, there are people doing this to varying degrees all over the world, whether or not is, if you have a full-scale permaculture farm, then you are almost 100% likely to be a permaculture activist, or an educator. It's not something you're doing lightly. You may also be someone who's like, "Well, you know, I'm part of my, part of my farm here, I'm doing in such a manner. Part of it I'm not." But there are things that you can do, even at your own home, like a forest garden.

• 44:59Josh Clark?

  Well, that's like, what permaculture seems to really be best at is backyard gardening.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:07Josh Clark?

  So tell them about the forest garden, because I found this fascinating, man.

• 45:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, if you've got a, if you have a back lawn that is just a big grass lawn, and you know, during our grass episode, we, we didn't get preachy, but a lot of people will say like, that's the worst thing you can do is just to have a huge, flat thing of grass.

• 45:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  As far as what's good for the earth, and that's a total, I mean, once in that, I think I remember, we talked about that literally being just like an American creation in the 50s or something?

• 45:39Josh Clark?

  No, it was even older than that. Yeah, but yeah, I'm pretty sure it was pretty American.

• 45:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:44Josh Clark?

  Maybe English.

• 45:45Speaker 04

  So, a forest garden is a food garden that you build, or plant, and you build it out of wood and iron.

• 45:53Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:54Speaker 04

  In your backyard to, that imitates a natural forest, so you're trying to sort of replicate what you might find in that natural setting in your yard. And this is gonna, like you said, make things a little easier on you, because you're not gonna have to rotate crops or till like you normally would.

• 46:11Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:13Speaker 04

  And everything's just sort of working together, and, and Robert has sort of a four-part example, four layers, if you will, starting with trees, which are gonna, obviously the biggest thing in that forest garden, they're gonna eat most of that sunlight, but they're also gonna let dappled light through, which can be great growing conditions for certain things.

• 46:35Josh Clark?

  Right, so the, there's, you're gonna grow things like blackberries, or leaf lettuce, or strawberries, any vines that are shade-loving, that produce food. But the, the point of this is like, the tree isn't just like, well, here's a tree, isn't that great? It's like, the tree also provides stability for the vine to climb up, right?

• 46:59Speaker 04

  Right.

• 46:59Josh Clark?

  Like you said, it provides shade for these shade-loving plants. And I guess the point, and I didn't really see anywhere... Explained why people do this. I know it's like an ancient technique from South America, I believe, like in the Brazilian rainforest, it's used to great impact.

• 47:17Speaker 04

  What, the trees?

• 47:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, forest, agroforestry basically is what it's called. But the, I didn't really see what the benefits of it are, especially if it limits you to shade-loving food plants, right? Because there's plenty of food plants out there that don't love shade, isn't that correct?

• 47:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, I guess, let me talk about what we're doing.

• 47:40Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  So this lady came in and she's a company owner and she takes a look at our yard and she's basically, instead of saying, hey, let's plant a tree that will take 20 years to grow to provide whatever shade and then go. She's like, let's, let's look at what you got now. Because Atlanta is an urban forest on its own, as you know, and there are trees everywhere. So we, we had existing trees and stuff. And she basically just sort of looks at everything, draws up a design, and then comes back to us and said, here's what we're gonna do.

• 48:14Speaker 04

  And that she's working mainly with Emily, because this was sort of her initiative and she knew more about it than I did, and Emily is more the gardener in the family.

• 48:21Josh Clark?

  Way to go, Emily.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I was on board, you know, and I was sitting in on these meetings going, this sounds great, this sounds great. So she would say, all right, you got shade over here, so why don't we think about this here? Like blueberry bushes. This is where you might want to think about putting your herbs. And downwind from there, because of how the way the wind blows through your yard, you might want to think about this there. And we can move, like, we had certain things that we wanted to keep, like some azaleas and some roses and things, and she was like, we gotta move those because they're not in the right place. So we'll put that over here, move this over there. And then before you know it, she's drawn a schematic for a sustainable backyard that all works together and, you know, the insects from the one plant are close to the,

• 49:07Speaker 04

  where they need to be to, to help kill insects that affect the other plant.

• 49:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 49:11Speaker 04

  And, you know, I wish I, well, it's probably great to get too wonky over my yard, but it, it just all works together in harmony. And we're doing it in stages. The main thing... Big, big change that we've done, aside from rearranging and planning new things, is we got a cistern, finally. So, we have a big, huge, geez, I don't even know how many gallons. I want to say like 500 gallon.

• 49:36Josh Clark?

  No.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  It's large.

• 49:38Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 49:39Speaker 04

  I mean, it's as big as...

• 49:42Josh Clark?

  That's an above-ground swimming pool, I think you're describing.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  Is it? Is it too many gallons?

• 49:46Josh Clark?

  500, that's a lot.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  I don't know. Let's say this. It is as big as a, it's like half as big as a Volkswagen Beetle.

• 49:55Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 49:55Speaker 04

  It's large. So, this is under our deck, so it's not an eyesore or anything.

• 50:02Speaker 04

  All the gutters in the house, all the water that falls onto our roof is fed into the cistern. And then that cistern has pipes that they trenched, and they go all underground throughout the whole yard. And just sort of leach water where it needs to be.

• 50:18Josh Clark?

  Neat.

• 50:18Speaker 04

  And then there's also a couple of pumps. We didn't have spigots in our backyard. We still don't. It's been awful, you know? We haven't had a, we've had to run like hundreds of feet of hose every time we wanted to water anything, and it just feels wasteful, anyway.

• 50:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 50:34Speaker 04

  And so, we didn't have backyard spigots, and now we have these two posts with the little pumps. And it's sort of gravity-fed, in a way. Like, if the cistern is full, and you turn that pump on, it'll, water will flow some. But then, we have an actual pump installed on the cistern to where we can actually use a sprinkler if we want to.

• 50:53Josh Clark?

  But, but, the pump is squirrel-run by a hamster wheel, right?

• 50:58Speaker 04

  I wish.

• 50:58Josh Clark?

  And it's located in the chestnut tree, so it is going to attract the squirrels, anyway.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  No, sadly, it does run on electricity. I wish it was hooked up to solar, but we're not that far along, yet.

• 51:11Josh Clark?

  That's pretty cool, though, man. That's a neat plan you got going on.

• 51:14Speaker 04

  It is pretty awesome. And, guess what? We have a swale.

• 51:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, I was hoping we were gonna be able to talk about swales. I love swales.

• 51:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, Robert didn't include this in his article, but I sent you a thing on swales. And we have a swale, which is to say, in the back right corner of our yard now, we have a tiny pond. It's only about five feet across by five feet across, and it is round. And it has a, like a round berm around it. So, you know, it's like a little hill. And a swale, the definition of a swale, it is a level ditch that is dug across whatever site you're in with the purpose of stopping the flow of water in order to make the water slowly filter into the land.

• 51:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 51:58Speaker 04

  Instead of rushing over it. And the idea there is, is that most people design their yards so water won't accumulate and it will run, it's graded in such a way that water, rainwater will just run off of it as quickly as possible.

• 52:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:14Speaker 04

  And that's, you know, that's very wasteful, and that's not how the ground, the ground is supposed to accept the water. I know that sounds so hippie. But in an ideal situation, the ground accepts the water into it, and it's not dry a day later. It is actually feeding the ground. And so this swale now has a runoff from the cistern. So when the cistern gets too full, the water will then run out into the swale and just sort of slowly leach into the ground around it. Or if we get just tons and tons of rain, obviously the swale will collect it and the water will leach into the ground around it.

• 52:50Josh Clark?

  That is very cool. That is swale.

• 52:53Speaker 04

  It's, it is super swale.

• 52:56Speaker 04

  But it was an important part, like when this lady came over, she's like, we gotta have a swale.

• 53:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 04

  All right.

• 53:01Josh Clark?

  She's like, swales are my biggest seller.

• 53:03Speaker 04

  And right now, it's not the most attractive thing in the world, but over time, we're planting instead of grass in between everything, or even mulch, we're doing ground cover. I can't remember the specific variety. But ground cover or mulch are the two most sustainable ways to treat your yard, period.

• 53:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that makes sense because the mulch will break down, right? Degraded and become nutrients.

• 53:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's pretty neat. Like, we got a good scene. It's gonna be years in the making.

• 53:33Josh Clark?

  Well, that's another thing, too. I mean, like, you gotta be very patient with this kind of stuff.

• 53:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, but we're in, though.

• 53:38Josh Clark?

  That's great, man. Congratulations.

• 53:41Speaker 04

  We're not going anywhere.

• 53:42Josh Clark?

  There are, and I'm wondering, you seem to have a pretty realistic approach to permaculture, though. Like, you're not gonna save the world with your backyard, it sounds like, but it's certainly not hurting some of the issues that the world is facing, right?

• 53:56Speaker 04

  No, we're just trying to create our own little sustainable habitat.

• 53:58Josh Clark?

  So there are, we should mention, some criticisms of permaculture, a lot of criticisms of permaculture, we should say. But they, you know, we've kind of hit on a couple of them, but the big one probably is that it's not rigorously tested scientifically enough. That it's just kind of taken like, oh, yeah, that would work intuitively. And then it's just left at that in a lot of ways. So there are people like Beth and Stagg, who I mentioned, and other people around the world who are starting to apply science to these things to say, this one works, let's keep at it. This one works better if you do it this way, or this one doesn't work at all, don't waste your time.

• 54:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 54:40Josh Clark?

  And as long as they're doing that, permaculture deserves any respect it can get. Because it really is, again, intuitively, it makes a lot of sense, but

• 54:51Josh Clark?

  that doesn't necessarily mean that it's true in fact, which is why you gotta study that kind of thing.

• 54:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the other thing that I saw in the Roberts article that did make sense to me was, one of the criticisms was to Molasson himself, because he apparently had a stress on bringing in exotic plants.

• 55:08Speaker 04

  And that goes counter to everything that our lady, for her company, talked about. She is all about native plants, like, only native plants.

• 55:18Josh Clark?

  And Molasson's response was, well, we've already screwed up the earth so bad that it, we're not trying to preserve ecosystems as they are specifically. We're trying to make them better through management. And it's like, actually, you just contradicted everything you said back in 1978. And I think that's a pretty good example of, from what I understand, of that guy. He's like, well, this is what I'm saying now, so this is true.

• 55:42Speaker 04

  Gotcha.

• 55:43Josh Clark?

  You know what I mean? That's just, and I've never met him, never heard him speak anything like that, just from reading about him, that's the impression that I have.

• 55:49Speaker 04

  Gotcha.

• 55:50Josh Clark?

  So to the Molasson family, sorry, if that's not right.

• 55:56Josh Clark?

  You got anything else?

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Got nothing else. You'll have to come over in two years.

• 56:00Josh Clark?

  I... I'll take you upon that.

• 56:03Speaker 04

  I don't want you to see it now.

• 56:04Josh Clark?

  I've been waiting for this invitation for 10 years.

• 56:07Speaker 04

  Well, it's gonna be 12 total, so...

• 56:08Josh Clark?

  12 total, alright. If you want to know more about permaculture, you can type that word into the search bar at HowStuffWorks. And since I said "search bar," it's time for listener mail.

• 56:21Speaker 04

  I'm gonna call this harrowing story from a fashion design intern.

• 56:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  It's a good one, and I got her permission. "Hey guys, listen to internships. Wanted to say, thanks for addressing this issue. When I was in college, I went to work, or wanted to work in the fashion industry, and the internship process was very difficult and exploitive. I managed to somehow get an internship without any connections, which felt nearly impossible, and worked my first gig for a top designer. And she did not name the designer. In a follow-up email, she did, but then said, "Maybe don't read it."

• 56:54Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 56:55Speaker 04

  But it's a top designer.

• 56:56Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 56:57Speaker 04

  And not only was the internship unpaid in one of the most expensive cities in the world, but I was also expected to wear an all-black, fashionable wardrobe at all times. So, I had to find housing in New York by all-new clothes. Luckily, my parents are able to help me out there, but I hated how prohibitive the whole thing was. While I was with that designer, the Conde Nast lawsuits were going on, and I remember people saying the lawsuit was just another example of stereotypical, millennial entitlement. That's obviously not the case, because as you mentioned, it's a social issue. Because of my internship, I was able to get more experiences in the fashion industry and eventually, a full-time job in New York after I graduated. Everyone I work with now had unpaid fashion internships,

• 57:42Speaker 04

  and almost everyone I work with is white, upper-class, and from a good school. Unpaid internships have led to bigger problems and diversity that I think really have hurt the fashion industry. You always hear about how retail and department stores are dying. Well, all the companies are run by old, white, straight dudes, and we lack a variety of perspectives which prevents innovation." Glad I had internships and I learned a lot, but I think the internship market really needs to change. So thanks again for addressing this. Hope a lot of people listen to your podcast and reevaluate how they do things at their own companies. And that is from Gail.

• 58:18Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Gail. Nice one.

• 58:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, that was a good one.

• 58:20Josh Clark?

  Great one, actually. If you want to get in touch with us like Gail did, you can tweet to us. I'm at SYSK Podcast or at Josh Umm Clark. Chuck's at Charles W. Chuck Bryant on Facebook and at Stuff You Should Know on Facebook. I'm on there too somewhere, although I'm not sure where. You can send us all an email, including Jerry, J E R I, to [email protected]. And in the meantime, hang out with us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 58:52Speaker 00

  For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com.

• 59:06Josh Clark?

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• 59:48Josh Clark?

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