We want our MTV!

If you've ever wanted to hear a couple of Gen X'ers wax nostalgic about MTV, then you're in luck. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:07Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 1:16Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And we're just a few MTV generation babies hanging out, talking about MTV on this MTV episode of Stuff You Should Know about MTV.

• 1:39Josh Clark?

  That's, I'll be able to do that with my dying breath. It's so ingrained in my head.

• 1:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, how can you not picture Neil Armstrong jumping off onto that moon?

• 1:49Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 1:49Speaker 03

  With an MTV flag?

• 1:51Josh Clark?

  For sure. Like a multi-changing MTV flag that's just drawn over the, the American flag. It's just iconic.

• 2:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. But hey, people, the answers to who wrote that song and who came up with that idea? They're all in this jam packed episode about MTV where we are surely going to wax nostalgic.

• 2:14Josh Clark?

  I think it would be impossible not to.

• 2:16Speaker 03

  Impossible.

• 2:16Josh Clark?

  As a matter of fact, I challenge us to try not to be nostalgic in this episode.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  I've already ruined it. I just air guitar the MTV theme.

• 2:24Josh Clark?

  We'll exclude that.

• 2:25Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  So we're talking about MTV. I don't think there's many people out there who don't know what MTV is. It's a global juggernaut, or it certainly was at one point in time. But for those who may not be familiar, MTV stood for music television. And it was what most people consider the first network dedicated to playing music videos. It's not true, but it's close enough that you might as well just say, fine, we'll go with that as the definition.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. And this was not the beginning of music videos. Music videos were, MTV did not create the music videos. They just were the first channel. Well, that's not even true either, so I'm just gonna shut up now. Some people point to the song Chantilly Lace from 1958 from The Big Bopper as maybe the first music video, because it was not just a film of a band playing their song, but there was some performative theatrics to it.

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  I saw one earlier by 16 years with Cab Calloway doing Minnie the Moocher.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Yeah? Well, the Beatles are who people usually point to. It's kind of starting out the music video thing where they showed the band doing other things and they were a little more elaborate and had different scenes. And you could see those on Top of the Pops on BBC or the Ed Sullivan Show. And then that Bohemian Rhapsody video from Queen from 1975 was one of the big ones. And they expressly did that so they didn't have to lip sync a performance on Top of the Pops.

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  And that's a full eight years before MTV came out. So that was like a definitive music video that they played on MTV for like decades to come. It was just a great video. But it also kicked off something really important that led to MTV, which was it became kind of standard in the recording industry to create a music video for maybe the top single or something of a big album that a big act was coming out with to use as a marketing or promotional tool. So apparently Queen kicked that off with the Bohemian Rhapsody video.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. There were, some countries had like, you know, music video shows. It would be on maybe late night or something on a weird station. New Zealand had a radio with pictures. In 1976, a little on the nose.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  The USA Network, and I do remember this, in 1978, they had a show called Video Concert Hall.

• 4:49Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 4:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember, I didn't like sit there glued to it like I did MTV because I was still just seven years old and I think it was a late night thing. But it was really, you know, the MTV story goes in lockstep with the story of cable television. By the way, big thanks to Olivia for this and a little hint, upcoming on Thursday, we're gonna round it out with an episode on VH1.

• 5:11Josh Clark?

  What?

• 5:12Speaker 03

  Yes, you knew that.

• 5:13Josh Clark?

  For real?

• 5:14Speaker 03

  You didn't know that?

• 5:15Josh Clark?

  No.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I told you in an email, let's do MTV and VH1 this week.

• 5:19Josh Clark?

  I must have missed that.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  All right. Well, I'm glad we, you're talking about MTV, we'd be in bad shape.

• 5:25Josh Clark?

  For real?

• 5:26Speaker 03

  But the rise of cable as like 10 million subscribers in 1975 to 40 million in 1985, that was really what grew MTV was, was cable being a thing and the US government saying, hey, cable, it's a little looser, you can kind of do a little more. And then cable companies saying, hey, maybe we should start thinking about kind of different kinds of channels we've never had before.

• 5:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because there were a lot more channels that the FCC opened up on the bandwidth, where before it was just over the air channels and those were full. So don't even ask, shut up, the networks have those locked down. When cable opened, it was like, what do you want to do? You want to make a channel all for kids? Great, let's, let's found Pinwheel and then eventually call it Nickelodeon. You want to show reruns? We'll call it Nick at Night. You want to show little kids, even smaller kids, programs? Great, we'll make a channel called Nick Jr. What else do you want? And people said, we got enough Nickelodeon, let's think of something else. And one of the other things that was thought of was something called the Movie Channel. And there was a guy named Bob Pittman who was working on

• 6:38Josh Clark?

  it. And he happens to be the CEO of iHeart Media, who we work for. And he's one of the, the big players with, with the founding of MTV and Is usually the person that people will tell you who know about this kind of thing, who if you ask them who founded MTV, the answer will usually be Bob Pittman. And that is true to an extent, but he wasn't alone. One of the other founders who is sometimes called the architect of MTV was already a very famous person by the time MTV came out.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  Are you talking about Mike Nesmith?

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  I am.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  Okay. This was in 1975. Mike Nesmith of the TV show and the musical group, The Monkees. He made a pilot called Pop Clips, which was backed by TV production legend and juggernaut Norman Lear. And it was, you know, it was basically proto MTV. They had comedians introducing music videos, like promotional videos that these record companies were making.

• 7:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  And there was a guy named John Lack. I don't think we mentioned that Time Warner Cable Corporation was one of the early cable companies that was, they'd launched Nickelodeon, they were kind of experimenting around. And in 1979, American Express bought half of that. And that new company, John Lack worked for, he was the COO. And he ran Nickelodeon and Nickelodeon did very well. And he eventually hooked up with Bob Pittman, who, like you said, was developing the movie channel, which I sorely miss. The movie channel was great.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  That was my favorite one, too. I don't know why, but it was my favorite.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  Because it was only movies.

• 8:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  I bet you that was it. Because for a kid, even though HBO was great, they had other stuff. And as a kid, you were like, I just want movies. And that's what the movie channel was.

• 8:26Josh Clark?

  I just want to see Outland. What's the problem?

• 8:29Speaker 03

  Oh, man. You ain't kidding. So Bob was running that. Lack, John Lack came to Bob and said, hey, what do you think about doing something if you're doing this movie only channel? What about a music only thing? And so Bob Pittman said, great, let's call it TV1. And they went, no, no, that's already a thing. And he went, all right, how about TVM, like TV Music? And everyone went, well, what about MTV? We think that sounds a little better. And he said, all right.

• 9:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And don't, don't feel bad for Mike Nesmith. He wasn't like squeezed out or they didn't steal his idea. He was invited to be a part of the whole thing and he was not interested. He has always considered himself an artiste and didn't run and get into like the corporate nitty gritty of it. So he said, just buy me out and I'll go along my way. But he did essentially kind of come up with the concept and the format. And then Pittman and Lack took it over with a couple of other guys, Fred Seabert and Alan Goodman, whose experience, I think up to that point, had been working together at a Columbia University student radio station.

• 9:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:38Josh Clark?

  So these people are, were all young, pretty hip. It's the early eighties. And again, this, the idea that there are promotional music videos already in existence out there and that the record companies give them away for free was the basis of where MTV and all of the other like music video programs came from. Because you could make this thing on the cheap, because again, record companies were giving these things away for free and saying, yes, play them via Condeos. It will only help us if you play these things on TV.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember when I met Bob for the first time in New York at the iHeart offices, our boss Connell took me by. I think we had an official meeting with him, but I was like, Connell, like, I gotta say something about MTV. I said, is that verboten? Is that not the kind of thing? He's like, oh no, man. He was like, you should definitely say something. And I met Bob and I was like, Mr. Pittman, I said, I just want to let you know. I was like, I was the guy. I was that kid who sat there at 10 years old, gallooned to my television, watching MTV as, as many hours as I was allowed to consume it. I was like, I was that kid. And he was like, you know, he said, we counted on you and everyone

• 10:55Speaker 03

  like you doing that same thing. Otherwise, it would not have been a success. So he thanked me, which I thought was very cool.

• 11:00Josh Clark?

  Well, you, you have to finish the story all the way.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  I don't, what was the end?

• 11:05Josh Clark?

  That he came around his desk with tears in his eyes and embraced you for a good minute, Connell said.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, he did not. But I think I touched him maybe a bit. I don't know. Who can tell? He sent me a bottle of tequila one Christmas, so.

• 11:20Josh Clark?

  I got one of those, too.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  Oh, well, see, I guess you didn't make him cry, though, did you?

• 11:26Josh Clark?

  No, but I touched him.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  That's right. So he hires these kids from the radio station, like you mentioned. They've got these videos. They need the other stuff. They need the logo. They need the theme song. They need the stuff in between the music videos, not only just the cast, which we're going to talk about, but you know, like the bump, the video bumpers and stuff like that. So they brought in, again, teams of friends to do this stuff.

• 11:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there was a, I guess, a guy named Frank Olinsky, who was a friend of Fred Seabert. Remember, one of the Columbia radio station guys? And he was creating a design studio and he created the logo. And apparently just got it right out of the gate. Like it was, there were not many iterations of it. Like he just nailed it. And there are very few logos that are more recognizable than MTV. In part because it spells out the name in the logo, so you kind of know exactly what the logo is for. But it's still pretty recognizable.

• 12:25Speaker 03

  It's a great logo.

• 12:26Josh Clark?

  It really is. And then the musical riffs, including the one that you did at the top of the podcast. Those were created by a couple of guys named Scott Elias and Jonathan Peterson. And they based it on the kinks. You really got me.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, you know, similar, I guess.

• 12:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, you can definitely tell when you hear that, but I never thought like, this is a kinks ripoff, you know?

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then that Moon Man, the moon landing became as sort of tied to MTV as anything else. And is it because they thought, hey, we're also embarking on a journey not yet known? Sure. Is it because it was one small step for television and a giant leap for the music industry? Of course. Was it also because that stuff was public domain and rights free? Absolutely.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, if the US government, which NASA is an agency of the US government, the US government owns something, you all own it too as an American. It's in the public domain, buddy. One of the other reasons, though, that I saw was that they were trying to basically say like, this is as monumental a cultural event as landing on the moon was.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. They initially had a version with Neil Armstrong and I could swear I remember hearing, you know, one small step for me, one giant leap for mankind. And I guess I watched the first few days. I mean, I know I did, so that must have leaked in there because I definitely remember hearing that version. But Neil Armstrong came forward and he was like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, that may be in the public domain, but that's my voice. You can't use my voice. So John Lack said, he replaced that by saying, a recording of himself, ladies and gentlemen, rock and roll. And that was it.

• 14:21Speaker 03

  Apparently, after the Challenger disaster, that branding ended in 1986, but I didn't know that. I know the Moon Man is still the VMA trophy, so maybe just parts of it continued on? I don't know.

• 14:35Josh Clark?

  I could see them taking it off the air temporarily because I definitely remember seeing it too. I would guess after 1986, but yeah. Yes, I could see the Challenger disaster happening and being like, yeah, let's just not do anything space-related right now.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. What about the taglines? They had a couple of those early on too, right?

• 14:53Josh Clark?

  The idents, you mean? Oh, the tagline. Sorry. Yeah, apparently it was, you'll never look at music the same way again.

• 15:00Speaker 03

  Pretty fun.

• 15:01Josh Clark?

  On cable, in stereo.

• 15:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they're okay. That and ladies and gentlemen, rock and roll, they just sound like they're delivered by somebody wearing rainbow suspenders, maybe.

• 15:14Josh Clark?

  Just real like late 70s, early 80s kind of branding stuff?

• 15:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, I could see that.

• 15:19Josh Clark?

  But what about the idents, the identifying,

• 15:23Josh Clark?

  I guess snippets? I'm not sure what the actual TV trade name is for them.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  I think I called them bumpers earlier. I'm not sure what the trade name is either, but I don't, I don't know what, where you're headed here. So take it away.

• 15:34Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, it's like station branding, showing you what network you're, you're watching. And MTV became really famous for all sorts of weird and bizarre ways of showing like, are you watching MTV? Like, one of the really famous ones that I remember was, it was a guillotine suddenly coming down and you had no idea what was going on. It was just, the whole thing started on a shot of a guillotine blade falling. And then all of a sudden, in the basket or on the floor of the, the gallows or wherever, a head falls down and the head is in the shape of the M. There's two eyes and like a tongue sticking out. And it's this really weird unsettling claymation head, but it's the MTV logo.

• 16:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, we did, if anyone saw our, our short run of the Stuff You Should Know TV show, we had some very, I think it was almost like an homage, some very similar bumpers that came in and out of commercial break for our TV show that were animations done by our friend Russ.

• 16:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Who did a phenomenal job. They're just like, it's one of the coolest things about that show still, I think.

• 16:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And also if you want to see some MTV idents, there's something on YouTube titled creepy MTV ident and logos collection 1990s. And it's, I think like 25 minutes of these 10 second clips.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Amazing. I'll have to check that out.

• 16:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you definitely should. Sorry I didn't send it to you.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  That's okay.

• 16:58Josh Clark?

  No, it's not Chuck. I'm sorry.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  On August 1st, just after midnight, 1981 is when MTV formerly, formally premiered. Sort of, I mean, I guess it did formally appear, but unless you lived in just parts of New Jersey. Then you wouldn't see it because that was, there was only one cable operator who even carried it at the time. And the cast even had to like pile in a rented school bus to drive to Fort Lee, New Jersey at a bar called The Loft because they knew that they would have it there. But the very first images that came on screen were the, was the Columbia Space Shuttle launching, that moon landing that we spoke of, the MTV logo, and of course, that musical riff, all put together. And in what is now the most tired and obvious

• 17:45Speaker 03

  trivia question of all time, probably, the very first video to play, and I'm not making fun of you if you didn't know this, but it's just, it feels like one of those, it's like, oh my God, everybody knows that The Buggles video Killed the Radio Star was the first MTV video.

• 18:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which is appropriate, video killed the radio star. Although it did, it did quite the opposite, though. It actually made the radio star into even bigger stars, as we'll see.

• 18:12Speaker 03

  Unless you weren't good at videos.

• 18:14Josh Clark?

  No, or you didn't want to make a video. You're basically making a massive career choice right then, in the 80s and 90s, to just basically be like, no, I don't want to be that huge, so I'm not going to play MTV's game.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think the question now at Bar Trivia should be, everybody knows that video Killed the Radio Star was the first music video played on MTV, what was the second?

• 18:37Josh Clark?

  Oh, do you know? Because I don't, I don't have that list.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  It is, it was Pat Benatar, You Better Run. In that first 24 hours, there were 116 unique videos for 209 total plays. So yes, there were plenty of repeats. The Pretenders, Brass and Pocket, The Who, You Better You Bet was the first one to be repeated. Rod Stewart had, this is shocking, on the very first day of MTV, Rod Stewart had 11, not just videos playing, he had 11 different videos playing for 16 total plays.

• 19:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah. That's amazing.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  And your boys, Iron Maiden, were in that first, uh, they were in the top 20, buddy. Uh, number 16 was the song, Iron Maiden.

• 19:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and then later on, they played Wrath Child, too. So they had two videos in the first 24 hours.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, I mean, if you kind of put all those together, what you, what you're seeing is a very, very varied,

• 19:40Speaker 03

  um, lineup, even though they were replaying stuff like Phil Collins, "In the Air Tonight", and "Just Between You and Me" by April Wine. Those were each played five times on the first day. Uh, but, you know, they, they had a, uh, to call when you don't have a lot of stuff in stock? Problem?

• 19:56Josh Clark?

  Uh, uh, I don't know, a, a big problem?

• 19:58Speaker 03

  A supply problem.

• 19:59Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:02Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, it was so varied. I saw that they played the video for Andrew Gold's "Thank You For Being A Friend", which went on to become the Golden Girls theme. That was the 54th video played on MTV ever. And they only played it once.

• 20:15Speaker 03

  Uh, but who was playing this? VJs. Uh, they had to start out with an initial lineup of VJs. Um, Bob Pittman very much had, uh, I think it was kind of breakfast clubby. He wanted very specific archetypes of youngish people. Um, he said, "We need a black person", we need, uh, which was J.J. Jackson. 41 years old, by the way, so he was sort of the, the old, the old guy for the 10-year-old that was watching.

• 20:39Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Uh, "We need a girl next door", which was Martha Quinn, 22 years old. I think she was the youngest. "We need a sexy little siren", uh, clearly Nina Blackwood. Uh, "We need a boy next door", that would have been Alan Hunter, and then "We need some hunky, Italian-looking guy with curly hair", and that was, of course, Mark Goodman.

• 20:56Josh Clark?

  And I think Mark Goodman was the first VJ on.

• 21:00Speaker 03

  Oh, I thought it was Alan Hunter.

• 21:01Josh Clark?

  I'm pretty sure it was Mark Goodman. I watched, like, uh, there are all sorts of videos of, you know, the first hour, the first two hours, the first whatever hours of MTV. And I watched the first, uh, little bit of it, and it, I'm pretty sure it was Mark Goodman who was first.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 21:19Josh Clark?

  Well, we'll, we'll find out eventually one day. I did see that I think VH1 rebroadcast the first 24 hours of MTV once, not too many years ago.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  Oh, well, that's fun.

• 21:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it just says like a, hey, guys, we like you over here.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  And also, I'm a semi recent subscriber to Sirius XM.

• 21:39Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  I don't know why I resisted for so many years. Maybe I just didn't know as much about it, but I love it. It's great. It's fun to have somebody curating music and not constantly, for me at least, be sitting around going like, oh, God, what do I want to listen to? I can't think of anything. What can I play? And it's great. And they got great channels. This is not an ad for them, but I, I really, really am enjoying it. And there are a few shows on a few stations from those, those VJs. I think Martha Quinn has a show.

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 22:10Speaker 03

  Alan Hunter has one, Mark Goodman, I think Nina Blackwood used to. I'm not sure if Martha Quinn still does, but yeah, it's, it's cool to, and I didn't even know, like, I'll just be listening to a cool station and it's like Mark Goodman pops up. It's nice.

• 22:22Josh Clark?

  I feel like they owe you at least a free month, or a hat, a baseball cap at least.

• 22:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, I hope a free year.

• 22:30Josh Clark?

  Okay. Yeah. So did you finally cave when the offer for how much it would cost you a month kept going down and it got into like the $1.50 area?

• 22:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that's the sort of the, the ticket. You just, you just wait for a good deal. First 12 months or like five bucks or something.

• 22:45Josh Clark?

  And they said, well, there goes your free year, Chuck.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  A couple of comedians early on that went on to be noteworthy were rejected. Richard Belzer, which is hysterical to think of him as an MTV VJ.

• 22:57Josh Clark?

  He was so cool, though.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  Oh, I love Bells. And then Carol Leifer was a comedian who later went on to write for Seinfeld.

• 23:03Josh Clark?

  Yes, she did pretty well for herself.

• 23:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:06Josh Clark?

  The thing is, is in retrospect today, you're like, yeah, MTV was huge. Not at first. Like you said, basically Fort Lee, New Jersey was the first and only place to have access to MTV. And like you, like you said, New Jersey was the only place, just a few small parts of New Jersey was the only place where you could see MTV. So it wasn't out of the gate like a sure bet that MTV was going to become a huge cable juggernaut.

• 23:30Josh Clark?

  And to kind of help spread the word that there was such a thing as MTV, an ad agency called the LPG Pawn Agency very wisely came up with the I want my MTV campaign. And I remember seeing those on MTV, but they were originally designed to play on other networks to get people watching at home to call their cable operator and say, "Hey, man, I want my MTV." And it worked.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, basically, any musician that came through the MTV office and studio, I think they just had like a standing set where they could say, "Just go in there, and however you want to do it, say, 'I want my MTV.'" And that's why they were also kind of fun and varied and clearly off the cuff. But it became part of their branding, such that the, one of my favorite groups, Dire Straits, in 1985 immortalized it via Sting as a guest singer, singing "I Want My MTV" at the beginning of the song "Money for Nothing," which would also become a huge, huge music video.

• 24:34Josh Clark?

  Uncredited guests, I think, even.

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Well, meaning that they didn't pay them?

• 24:41Josh Clark?

  No, that they didn't say, "And Sting, ladies and gentlemen."

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Well, like, in the song?

• 24:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what I would have expected.

• 24:47Speaker 03

  Who does that? Like, before Dolly Parton's verse in "Islands in the Stream," Kenny Rogers just goes, "And now, Dolly Parton."

• 24:53Josh Clark?

  I could totally see that. He would pull it off, too.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  He totally could have.

• 24:57Josh Clark?

  So, one of the things that also helped the channel spread, especially by word of mouth among their target market, which was teens, especially teens who got fat allowances from their parents, is that some conservative places were like, "We're not carrying this MTV." And they made the terrible mistake of actually publicizing that they weren't going to carry MTV. And there were like, Christian organizations, the Parents Music Resource Center, would kind of get in the craw of MTV, but simultaneously give it really good press.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:29Josh Clark?

  Because if your parents didn't want you watching it, you definitely wanted to watch MTV.

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I mentioned that supply problem. I do have a number here, thanks to Livia. There were only 250 videos at first.

• 25:43Speaker 03

  So if you look at the math, they played 209 videos on the first day. So they sort of spent their allowance almost fully on that first day. So for a long time, you were seeing videos and repeated heavily in heavy rotation. And even once they had, you know, it was sort of like the radio, like the ones that were hit got played more even when they did have the supply.

• 26:07Josh Clark?

  I friend did a little bit of math.

• 26:10Speaker 03

  Oh, God, it's always my favorite part.

• 26:12Josh Clark?

  At an average of three minutes per video, which I think is a good average, they would have to start over every 12 hours.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Uh, oh, if they just didn't repeat ones and they just played their whole supply?

• 26:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the whole wad.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:29Josh Clark?

  Um, one thing, though, there was this, uh, there's a documentary out on Devo that's really good on Netflix.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Ah, I still haven't seen it.

• 26:36Josh Clark?

  It's really good, um, I think. And they really kind of talk a lot about how Devo, so Devo in the early days, they were an art collective as much as a band. And so they made quirky, weird films for their songs. So they were making music videos before MTV and they didn't have anywhere to show them. And then MTV came along and Devo helped make MTV. They gave them more really good, like videos that people wanted to see.

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:02Josh Clark?

  And then as MTV got bigger and bigger and more and more commercial, uh, Devo got left to the wayside. Forgotten, you could say, it's actually kind of sad as things just kind of started to go downhill for the band. But that was a, that was a big point that they made, and I think something overlooked that there were a lot of interesting pioneering groups.

• 27:22Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:22Josh Clark?

  That were making videos even before MTV came along, that MTV digested and fed itself on and grew big on. And then they just got left because all of a sudden Kip Winger was like, oh, if I take my shirt off and tease my hair out with, put a little Aquanet in there. I can make a video too. And they're like, no, no, no, it's not quite that easy. We need to film it in black and white video and then you'll have a video. He's like, okay, let's do it.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  And Kip Winger is like, yeah, but like, don't you understand my songs about 17 year old girls?

• 27:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It really is. There's no getting around it. The only one that's worse or more blatant than that is, um, Benny Madrones. No, his is, um, Into the Night, where he's like trying to spring like a middle schooler or something like that from her parents' house.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't remember that.

• 28:15Josh Clark?

  If I could fly, I'd pick you up and take you into the night.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  Oh, I know that song. Yeah, yeah.

• 28:21Josh Clark?

  Show you love. It's a great song, but.

• 28:24Speaker 03

  Super creepy.

• 28:24Josh Clark?

  You just can't stop and think about what he's saying.

• 28:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, or, or watch the Lionel Richie video for Hello. Is it me you're looking for? It's kind of a sweet song, but in the video, he's like a, he's like a teacher that seems seemingly stalking a blind student.

• 28:41Josh Clark?

  Right, and a sculptor, sculptor, right? An art teacher?

• 28:45Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, I think so. It was, it's one of those at the time where you're like, oh, that's sweet. Now you're like, oh, my God. Like, fire, fire that teacher.

• 28:52Josh Clark?

  Right. There's a lot of eighties and nineties media that's like that.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, one thing I did want to say when you were talking about Devo, like, I can say for sure that ten-year-old Chuck would not have known about Devo or the Talking Heads.

• 29:05Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  Or, like, do you remember the Art of Noise video?

• 29:09Josh Clark?

  Hmm, oh, like the super cool, like, animation?

• 29:11Speaker 03

  It was like herky-jerky stop motion with, like, chainsawing mannequins and.

• 29:16Josh Clark?

  What was the name of the song?

• 29:18Speaker 03

  I don't remember the name of the song, but Art of Noise was the band. Uh, but like, there's no way I would have known, like, I was listening to Top 40 radio and then in a couple of years, my brother-in-law would start feeding me Southern Rock and Lynyrd Skynyrd and Allman Brothers and stuff like that. And, like, there's no way I would have been listening to any artsy stuff like that, because that didn't come along for me until I started listening to alternative music in, like, the ninth and 10th grade.

• 29:44Josh Clark?

  You know, um, and I think a lot of people out there would be like, well, no, Chuck, you would have heard Devo on the radio, or you would have heard.

• 29:51Speaker 03

  I doubt it. Maybe Talking Heads.

• 29:53Josh Clark?

  Maybe Talking Heads, right. The point is, is the reason you heard those on the radio is because of MTV. Because when it became clear that if you gave MTV promotional videos for free and they played them.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:06Josh Clark?

  You were going to start selling records in that cable operators region. That's just what happened. It became very clear, uh, very quantifiable early on that where MTV played a song, and it didn't matter if it was a well-known band or someone you'd never heard of, those records were going to sell in local record stores. And from that point on, MTV was basically, it had its, its path set out for them.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. Man, Devo's so good. If your only experience with Devo is the Satisfaction, the Rolling Stones cover, or, or Whip It, both of which are great songs.

• 30:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  Like, do yourself a favor and just dive in. It's amazing music. I love Devo and shout out, of course, to Akron, Akron, Akron and Firestone High School.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  Chuck, we're 30 minutes in and we haven't taken an ad break yet.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  I thought we took one, no?

• 30:56Josh Clark?

  I don't think so, did we? Let's ask Jerry to rule on this. Jerry?

• 31:01Speaker 04

  You have not.

• 31:03Speaker 03

  Okay. All right. Jerry verified and hopefully we can leave that in there, Jerry's voice. I don't know if she's going to be okay with it or not, but this one's clearly going to be supersized. So maybe 30 minutes is about right.

• 31:13Josh Clark?

  Okay. So we're going to cut to commercial break right now. Will you play us out with the music stinger?

• 31:22Josh Clark?

  No?

• 31:23Speaker 03

  Oh, me? I thought you meant Jerry.

• 31:25Josh Clark?

  You.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

• 31:33Josh Clark?

  Very nice.

• 31:52Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability and it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 32:15Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic forerunner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 32:55Speaker 05

  Every small business owner has that one story, the one moment that could have broken them, but remarkably, it didn't. Hi, I'm Kathleen Griffith, co-host of The Unshakeables, along with Stevie Barron, CEO of Chase for Business. We have more incredible stories of overcoming the impossible still to come in season three. You'll hear from entrepreneurs who faced make or break moments and came out stronger. We dig into how they did it, what they learned, what they'd never do again, and what kept them pushing forward. These are the stories that remind us that being unshakable isn't about never falling. It's about how you rise, rebuild, and keep going. Whether you're starting up, scaling up, or trying to find your footing again,

• 33:40Speaker 05

  these stories remind us that resilience lives everywhere, in small businesses shaping communities all across America. Listen to The Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at chase.com/podcast. JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Copyright 2026 JPMorgan Chase and Company.

• 34:18Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, so one of the things I definitely associate with MTV is Michael Jackson's Thriller. I was into Thriller. I had the red Thriller jacket. My mom made me a white sequin glove for my first communion as a gift. I was super into Michael Jackson. And I loved Thriller so much that my family bought the making of the Thriller video on VHS. And my sister watched it essentially until it broke. So I always associate MTV with Thriller. Anytime I knew it was coming on, I would go watch it. It was awesome. But it turns out like, Michael Jackson and his record label had to basically fight to get onto MTV, which is mind-boggling to me these days.

• 35:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. This was 1982 when the landmark album came out. There's a very funny Vincent Price story, because Vincent Price, obviously, the legendary spooky actor, was in the 13-minute mini-movie that accompanied Thriller as the video.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  And Vincent Price had an option, apparently, to either take a flat fee of like, I don't even know how much it was, 20 grand or something.

• 35:30Josh Clark?

  That's what I was gonna say.

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Or get, yeah, that sounds about right. Or get points on the Thriller album. And he clearly opted for the, for the flat fee.

• 35:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, wow.

• 35:42Speaker 03

  And would go on to regret that for many years. And apparently, over the years, called Michael Jackson a lot, trying to sort of get back that deal, which his calls were never returned. And I will just let the listener look up the quote, apparently, that came out about Vincent Price when Michael Jackson settled with his alleged victims many years later. I'm not gonna say it here, but you can go look it up if you want.

• 36:07Josh Clark?

  Okay. One other thing about that album, too, that was interesting, Billie Jean was on there. I know Beat It was on there, they both were. But Eddie Van Halen played guitar on Beat It, that very famous guitar solo.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:21Josh Clark?

  And apparently, at the time, Van Halen had like, no outside work deal with one another.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:28Josh Clark?

  All they could do is focus on Van Halen. And so Eddie Van Halen had the opportunities, like, yeah, I don't think anybody will hear this record. I'm just gonna play on this dude's record and no one will know about it, because it'll be uncredited. And sure enough, it turns out that Beat It and Thriller became one of the biggest selling albums of all time.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, well, people sort of like, how could Vincent Price have done that? But Michael Jackson wasn't that level until after Thriller, so.

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  No.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  I mean, Off the Wall was out, of course, and he was with the Jackson Five, but no one knew it was gonna be, you know, one of the best-selling, if not the best-selling albums of all time.

• 37:04Josh Clark?

  Man, poor Vincent Price, I didn't know that.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, and also, in regards to Thriller, it was a $900,000 budget for that video, directed by John Landis. And part of the funding came from Josh's parents, because they ended up selling, you know, the making of on VHS, like you mentioned, 100,000 copies of that in advance. For $29.95, Showtime paid $300,000 to see the documentary, or I'm sorry, just to air the documentary, and MTV paid another quarter of a million dollars for the ultimate rights, so.

• 37:37Josh Clark?

  That's just the documentary?

• 37:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, because the videos were free.

• 37:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for the making of Thriller, the documentary, and it was good, it was like an hour and 10 minutes long, I looked it up.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, I watched it.

• 37:48Josh Clark?

  So one of the reasons why Thriller was a big deal is because there weren't a lot of black performers or artists on MTV at the time, so much so that David Bowie very famously called MTV out.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:03Josh Clark?

  In an interview on MTV with Mark Goodman. And he basically just said, like, what's, what's the deal here? I think his, his actually quote is, what the holy heck is going on with you guys? And it was, it was true. I mean, like, you just couldn't put it any other way. And MTV basically said, well, we play rock, and it's actually rock's fault because they're the ones who exclude black acts by calling them R and B and not rock. So blame, blame the music industry, not us. And that didn't fly. That wasn't good enough. And there's a guy who's, if there's a hero in this story, it's him. His name is Walter Yetnikoff. I think he was the head of CBS Records at the time. And he said, if you don't start playing these singles, these videos off of Michael Jackson's

• 38:47Josh Clark?

  Thriller album, we're pulling all of CBS Records artists. You're not going to get a single video from any of them. And that was significant because they made up about a quarter of the videos that were playing on MTV at the time.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. And part two of that, and this is for real, he, he said, we will publicly accuse you of racism if you don't start playing these.

• 39:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:08Speaker 03

  So I think that really hit home, obviously. They got Billie Jean and Beat It in the rotation fairly heavily at first, but Libya said she found that that didn't last too long. I feel like I remember seeing those ad nauseam forever.

• 39:23Josh Clark?

  Oh, really? I, I remember not seeing them as often as I wanted.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  Oh, well, you also had a secret white glove on, so. You might've wanted to hear more than me, I don't know.

• 39:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  I love those songs, though. And I remember working a, a, a commercial job one time with my longtime production manager, Andrea, and she, it very casually dropped that she was a production coordinator on the Beat It video one time. And I was like, excuse me? One of the fun things about doing that stuff in LA is you would always meet people that, like, just worked on these legendary jobs every now and then. It's like, yeah, yeah, I was the lighting guy for whatever, for Thriller.

• 40:01Josh Clark?

  That's cool.

• 40:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  So by this time, we're talking mid 80s and MTV is now the place that is making the names of the artists who are making videos for their music, right?

• 40:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:16Josh Clark?

  And the more daring you were, or the more Kip Winger-esque you were, you could make a really big name for yourself. It didn't matter all that much whether your music was particularly good. Sometimes it didn't matter whether your video was even particularly good. If you could get onto MTV and nail it in just the right way, they would play it a lot and you would sell a lot of records and your, your career would be made. And it's no, it's no overstatement to say that Madonna's career was made. Who else, Chuck?

• 40:50Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, people that already had good careers were launched into the stratosphere. Like people like Billy Joel, who was already a prominent artist. All of a sudden, he's putting out some, like some of the Buzz Bin, like groundbreaking videos like Pressure. And then when he married, or was dating at least, Christie Brinkley.

• 41:09Josh Clark?

  Oh yeah, I remember that video.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  And like the video for Uptown Girl. And all of a sudden, the biggest supermodel on planet earth was on MTV. It was a big deal. They started the, the top 20 video countdown in 1984. So all of a sudden, that is rivaling American top 40 on radio as far as like where the kids are going to see the, the top content. The VMAs, the Video Music Awards started also in 1984 and had plenty of iconic moments. And very quickly, like music video directors, it became sort of a, a farm league for people that would go on to be huge, huge movie directors started out in music videos.

• 41:50Josh Clark?

  Or it went the other way too. I saw that William Friedkin, who directed The Exorcist in 1983, also directed Laura Branigan's video for Self Control in 1983.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:02Josh Clark?

  You know the one where she, she lives among the creatures of the night?

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 42:07Josh Clark?

  She doesn't have the will to try and fight?

• 42:09Speaker 03

  I remember that. I love Laura Brandon again.

• 42:11Josh Clark?

  That's a great song. Beats the heck out of Gloria, if you ask me.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  I like Gloria.

• 42:16Josh Clark?

  I mean, I guess you don't have to choose, but I still like self-control more. But yeah, William Friedkin of The Exorcist directed that video.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  That's true, but far more often, to be fair. It went the other way and people started out in music videos and went on to be very popular film directors. David Fincher directed Vogue from Madonna, The End of Innocence from Don Henley. Janie's Got a Gun from Aerosmith, not the Aerosmith videos that featured Liv Tyler and Alicia Silverstone that were also iconic. He also directed the George Michael Freedom 90 video, which talk about supermodels, like every supermodel under the sun was in that one.

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  I was reading about George Michael's I Want Your Sex video. And I was like, I guarantee that was as controversial as anything was when it came out. And so I went on to our beloved newspapers.com and looked for some contemporary anious articles on that.

• 43:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:13Josh Clark?

  And dude, the stuff that they were saying, like, should videos, should sexy videos be banned? There are limits to artists' rights and all this just junk censorship junk that today is like, this is what like you guys were amusing yourselves with in the mid to late 80s? And it absolutely was. And if you go back and look at the video, it is objectively sexy. But to ban anything because of this video, it's just mind bogglingly stupid today in 2025.

• 43:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. Another group of directors, Michelle Gondry and Spike Jonze got their starts. If you want to talk about just sort of groundbreaking videos, Peter Gabriel's Sledgehammer in 1986.

• 43:59Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  Was directed by Stephen R. Johnson, the amazing stop motion animation with the help of the brothers Quay and Aardman Animations. That was a big one. And then of course, the Aha Take On Me video was a huge, huge breakthrough video.

• 44:12Josh Clark?

  Man, such a great song still.

• 44:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:15Josh Clark?

  Like the kind of song you can listen to on repeat still. I mean, think about how many times you've heard Take On Me.

• 44:21Speaker 03

  I love the song.

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  It's a really great song still, but yes, that video is amazing. And plus, I mean, it didn't hurt that the lead singer was about as dreamy as a person on MTV could be.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're all, they're all hot dudes.

• 44:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I remember my sister with her hands clasped under her chin, just like staring at the TV whenever that guy came on.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  We should, we should mention just for Libby too, because Libby wrote this and she clearly has a soft spot in her heart for Bonnie Tyler's Total Eclipse of the Heart video.

• 44:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she pointed out that there is a literal version that they sing, like they changed the lyrics based on what's going on in the video. It's pretty hilarious. There's some other ones too that definitely made MTV because as we talked about in Saturday morning cartoons, MTV provided a bardic function for American teenagers and eventually teenagers around the world. Like when you went and watched the Top 20 Countdown, you were seeing, as all of your friends were seeing at the same time, what was cool that week, right? Or you talked about like, have you seen the ZZ Top video? Like ZZ Top had a trio of videos called the Eliminator Series.

• 45:28Josh Clark?

  For Legs, Sharp Dress Man, Give Me All Your Lovin'. And it featured like that super cool, like 1930s car or whatever with the ZZ Top keychain.

• 45:40Speaker 03

  I had one of those.

• 45:40Josh Clark?

  Their guitar and their bass would spin on the axis. They could just twirl them. You remember that? And they were fuzzy. They were, they were just really cool videos. And I remember just being like, wow, I like these videos a lot because they were super sexy. But I recently read how like essentially a feminist defense of those videos. And they pointed out that the people who were the villains were people who were like sexually harassing the three women in the Eliminator Series. And that they would always get their comeuppance. And ZZ Top was always cheering for these three, I guess, muses or angels or whoever who would come out of the blue and save the day.

• 46:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, angels in fishnet hopes.

• 46:23Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  I don't know if there was ever a group that was less. Likely to be MTV stars than ZZ Top was.

• 46:34Josh Clark?

  They were saying that there was a quote where they were like, you know, we had basically had our run.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:39Josh Clark?

  As in rock, not even rock and roll.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Texas Blues Band.

• 46:42Josh Clark?

  Exactly. I think this is in like Texas Monthly, maybe magazine, because they, yeah, they're from Texas. And then all of a sudden, because of these videos, because of MTV, they had a brand new career, essentially. And I think Billy Gibbons was the one who was quoted, who said like, we got 16 year old girls back as fans.

• 47:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:00Josh Clark?

  You know, like, so yeah, that's a really great point. They were extremely unlikely. And that demonstrates the power of what MTV could do. If you made a cool video, people talked about, you could have a brand new career on your hands.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  I know you want to shout out Weird Al, somebody that I've never been that into, but I was an MTV kid. So I definitely saw and generally had a laugh with a lot of those videos.

• 47:23Josh Clark?

  They were great. He apparently had 10 specials on MTV over the years called Al TV. But yeah, that was another one too. Like you'd be like, have you seen Weird Al's Like a Surgeon video? Or I Lost on Jeopardy?

• 47:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:38Josh Clark?

  And stuff. And then one other one too, that was a really big video early on was the video for Fish Heads from Barnes and Barn. Do you remember that?

• 47:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I don't remember that being a very big song or video at all. I, I thought it was just noteworthy because it was Bill Paxton. Or was that a big song?

• 47:57Josh Clark?

  I think it was one of those ones that made people go watch MTV because it would come on sometimes.

• 48:04Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 48:04Josh Clark?

  I don't think it was like a huge hit or anything like that, but it was one of those, one of those early videos that drew you to MTV by word of mouth.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, kind of like MC Scat Cat.

• 48:14Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 48:15Speaker 03

  Baller Abdul.

• 48:16Josh Clark?

  Yep. I remember that.

• 48:20Josh Clark?

  Wait, wait, we're getting nostalgic. We failed.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  I know, I know. That, that failed a long time ago, but we do have to mention the Hungry Like the Wolf video from Duran Duran. Because that was, it certainly wasn't the first, but that was maybe the best example of music video as like a very cinematic, you know, where, where all of a sudden it was like the band was in a movie.

• 48:43Speaker 03

  And, and it was like, it's not like they weren't a big band before, but Hungry Like the Wolf really put them over the top.

• 48:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. And just changed the, the way that people made videos too. They made them much more, like it was a movie.

• 48:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, a pretty good one, I thought.

• 49:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and a good song, too.

• 49:03Speaker 03

  Should we take our second break here at minute forty-seven?

• 49:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 03

  All right, we'll be right back because there's plenty more to talk about with MTV.

• 49:28Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 49:38Speaker 03

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road Ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 49:51Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 50:31Speaker 05

  Every small business owner has that one story, the one moment that could have broken them, but remarkably, it didn't. Hi, I'm Kathleen Griffith, co-host of The Unshakeables, along with Stevie Barron, CEO of Chase for Business. We have more incredible stories of overcoming the impossible still to come in season three. You'll hear from entrepreneurs who faced make or break moments and came out stronger. We dig into how they did it, what they learned, what they'd never do again, and what kept them pushing forward. These are the stories that remind us that being unshakable isn't about never falling. It's about how you rise, rebuild, and keep going. Whether you're starting up, scaling up, or trying to find your footing again,

• 51:16Speaker 05

  these stories remind us that resilience lives everywhere, in small businesses, shaping communities all across America. Listen to The Unshakables wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at chase.com/podcast. JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Copyright 2026 JPMorgan Chase & Company.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  So MTV was a pretty big success in the mid 80s, obviously, so much so that Turner Broadcasting, TBS, tried to compete with their cable music channel. I think the country music, I'm sorry, the cable music channel, CMC, started around the same time. There were a lot of imitators, most of them fizzled out. I think the Turner one was bought out by MTV for about a million bucks.

• 52:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  But in 1985, Viacom Inc. bought MTV from Warner, and leadership said, hey, why don't we stop just playing random videos and start sort of bucketing this stuff? And all of a sudden, they had thematic shows like 120 Minutes and Headbanger's Ball and Yo MTV Raps and stuff like that.

• 52:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yes. And 120 Minutes always has a soft spot in my heart because you had to stay up on Sunday night. It started Sunday night at midnight. So technically, it started Monday morning at midnight and ran for 120 minutes till 2:00 a.m. It's like the worst time slot in the history of time slots. And yet, that was the only place you could see like a Susie and the Banshees video or like Jesus and Mary Chain or whoever. Like, that's the only place you could see those videos, and it was worth staying up for.

• 53:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, the great Matt Penfield, shout out to him as host of Club MTV in 1987. With Downtown Julie Brown, that was their their dance show, their their sort of Soul Train, American Bandstand style show. I'd say just go listen to the heavy metal episodes if you want to hear more about Headbanger's Ball.

• 53:26Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 53:27Speaker 03

  But Yo MTV Raps started in 1988, and that was like Run DMC had been on, I think in 84 with Rock Box, but Yo MTV Raps cannot be under or overestimated, I guess, as was what a role it played in bringing hip hop and rap to the mainstream.

• 53:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and if you want a new trivia question to replace the Buggles video Killed the Radio Star, the first rap video played on Yo MTV Raps was Shinehead's Chain Gang.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 53:57Josh Clark?

  You remember that one?

• 53:58Speaker 03

  I don't, not at all, actually. Do you?

• 54:01Josh Clark?

  You know, The Sound of the Men working on the Chain Gang?

• 54:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:04Josh Clark?

  He did like a hip hop version of that.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 54:07Josh Clark?

  It's good. Go listen to it.

• 54:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were also famous for banning some of these. And again, you're going to get more attention by doing something like that. So NWA had some of their stuff banned, Public Enemy, the great song, By the Time I Get to Arizona, was banned in 1991. And then also, one of my favorite shows was Unplugged.

• 54:29Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:29Speaker 03

  Started in 1989, where they did, you know, they had bands in studio, live in concert, doing, you know, acoustic numbers of their of their hits. And some of the Unplugged albums became just sort of iconic legendary vinyl LPs for those bands, just because people had never heard them that way before, like Nirvana and Oasis and stuff like that.

• 54:52Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. I was like, I never really ever watched MTV Unplugged. I wasn't very aware of it. Now that you said that Nirvana song, yes, I remember now.

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, R E M's was awesome. And, you know, they had some sort of obvious unplugged stuff like Bob Dylan and Neil Young, but I think it was when the rock bands did it is when it got the most attention and was maybe at its best?

• 55:13Josh Clark?

  For sure. Or Depeche Mode.

• 55:18Josh Clark?

  So one other thing that was huge, just huge, that started out as just some small thing that they tried was in 1986, Alan Hunter took everybody to Daytona Beach.

• 55:28Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 55:28Josh Clark?

  And they basically just covered Spring Break.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:31Josh Clark?

  And Spring Break became an annual event on MTV for decades to come. It was just a huge deal. Every Spring Break was covered and it was just people like doing shots or dancing or whatever, like on the beach, playing volleyball. It was just all lame and dumb, but it was exactly the kind of thing you wanted to see if it was like April in northern Ohio.

• 55:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:56Josh Clark?

  Because it didn't look like that outside in April in northern Ohio. So like it just brought you down to the beach with all these beautiful people and it was, it was a great experience for sure. And that also kind of gave birth to Beach MTV or MTV Beach House later on, which they would basically just rent a beach house and broadcast from there for the summer.

• 56:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 56:17Josh Clark?

  It just made summer, summer. You know what I'm saying?

• 56:20Speaker 03

  Sort of like the official kickoff. Yeah.

• 56:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Or like even like in the middle of summer, just seeing that in the morning, you know, as you're getting ready to go hang out with friends because school was out. It just, it was like a punctuation mark for summer. It just made it more of a summer to me.

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. I totally agree. MTV News was another non-music show. That's kind of where we're headed in this segment. And it was a very big deal. I remember that they had a very iconic intro too, with the typewriter spelling out MTV News and that, that sound that it made. Yeah. Do that louder. You just did it great.

• 56:56Speaker 03

  No, your first try was better.

• 57:00Speaker 03

  Kurt Loder though, was a veteran rock journalist and he was, is sort of the, the main face in 1987. But you know, they also had like Chris Connolly, he ended up being the movie guy. He was the MTV News guy for a while. I had many, many crushes via MTV News, like Tabitha Soren and Serena Altshul. And even a little bit of Kennedy.

• 57:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Kennedy. Remember Duffy?

• 57:26Speaker 03

  Oh, I remember Duffy. She lived in a friend of mine's building in, uh, in New York, in the Greenwich Village in the, in the mid 90s. And I saw her in the elevator once and almost passed out.

• 57:34Josh Clark?

  I'll bet. Uh, I think the, the one who could top them all, though, was Daisy Fuentes.

• 57:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I forgot about her. Daisy Fuentes.

• 57:42Josh Clark?

  Daisy Fuentes. Um, so anyway, moving on, there was a, uh, a game show on MTV for, I think, just like a year, maybe, called, um, Remote Control. Came on in 1987. And if anyone asks you what, um, MTV's first regular non-music programming was, it was Remote Control. And I loved Remote Control.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  Me too. It had to be more than a year because Ken Ober was the host, unless they just replaced the host mid-year, which I, I don't remember. Uh, because another crush, Kari Wer took over for Ken Ober at a certain point. Uh, but Remote Control was very funny and, uh, a great game show for people our age. And to me, it was most noteworthy is launching the careers of Colin Quinn.

• 58:28Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  Uh, who was the sidekick and a, a young Adam Sandler and Dennis Leary got their start there.

• 58:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they were both writers. And then Adam Sandler also played some early characters, one of which was Stud Boy.

• 58:42Josh Clark?

  But it was great. It had one of the all-time best sets of not just any game show, but any TV show. It was set in Ken Ober's parents' basement and it was all about, all of the questions were about TV and TV history and stuff. It was really wonderful. Like the people, the players played from recliners. And if I remember correctly, if you were, if you lost, you're like, the recliner went sailing backwards through the wall.

• 59:04Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 59:05Josh Clark?

  That was a great show.

• 59:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's funny, I haven't, I didn't watch any clips, but in my brain, it just popped into my head, the intro was something like, "I wasn't like the other kids," or something like that, right?

• 59:17Josh Clark?

  It was, Kenny wasn't like the other kids.

• 59:20Speaker 03

  Oh, that's it.

• 59:20Josh Clark?

  "TV mattered. Nothing, nothing else did."

• 59:22Speaker 03

  "Nothing else did."

• 59:23Josh Clark?

  "Girls said yes, but he said no. Now he's got his own game show."

• 59:27Speaker 03

  Do you remember that or did you look that up?

• 59:29Josh Clark?

  I remembered it. I did not look up a word of that.

• 59:32Speaker 03

  That's so funny, man. I, I, I knew there was something there about not being like the other kids.

• 59:35Josh Clark?

  No, because, yeah, he just wanted to watch TV. So now he has a game show about TV.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  Uh, House of Style, 1989, a fashion show hosted by Cindy Crawford, was huge. Uh, as far as comedy goes, it turns out, beyond Remote Control being very funny.

• 59:52Speaker 03

  Uh, they launched like, they were, they were sneakily one of the great comedy incubators of the eighties, I feel like.

• 59:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and nineties.

• 59:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, into the nineties, cause The State, uh, the great, uh, to me, the best sketch show of all time was The State.

• 1:00:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  From ninety-four to ninety-five on MTV. Uh, The Ben Stiller Show in nineteen ninety was, uh, amazing and very underseen and underrated.

• 1:00:15Josh Clark?

  Did you watch that when it was on?

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:18Josh Clark?

  I did not.

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, I was into all of that.

• 1:00:21Josh Clark?

  I went, so that launched Janine Garofalo, Bob Odenkirk, David Cross, Judd Apatow, Andy Dick, for better or worse, Ben Stiller, obviously, cause before that, he was just Jerry Stiller's kid.

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Josh Clark?

  And this was where he introduced himself to the world, and we have Severance, thanks to the show, so thanks a lot, MTV. But it also brought together Bob Odenkirk and David Cross.

• 1:00:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:45Josh Clark?

  With Dinos Dematopoulos, who was also a writer on the show with them, and, um, they went on to make, uh, Mr. Show.

• 1:00:52Speaker 03

  Now, that actually might be my favorite sketch show.

• 1:00:54Josh Clark?

  I, I think so, too. But there, I went back, so I was like, I haven't seen a second of this show, and I found a great sketch with Bob Odenkirk as Charles Manson.

• 1:01:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:04Josh Clark?

  But Charles Manson is Lassie, it's like a black and white parody of Lassie, but rather than Lassie the dog, it's Charles Manson, who's like the family dog, but he's just saying crazy stuff, and Bob Odenkirk does a perfect Charles Manson.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  It's so good. Uh, and that's where Ben Stiller started doing the Tom Cruise impressions and, um, yeah, such a good show. Uh, we, we, even though I wasn't into it, we have to talk about Totally Polly.

• 1:01:30Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Uh, Polly's show ran for five years, so it was actually a pretty big hit.

• 1:01:34Josh Clark?

  The Wees.

• 1:01:35Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, The Wees. Uh, and then, one of my favorites, which got, you know, MTV had such good programming for a while there with these other shows. Um, Liquid Television in nineteen ninety-one. 10 years at least before Adult Swim came on, you could be a kid that was watching this crazy weird experimental animation on television.

• 1:01:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Liquid Television, right? Did you watch Aon Flux?

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  I loved Aon Flux. It was mind blowing.

• 1:02:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, if you've never seen Aon Flux, this is like a decade before Adult Swim came out. And this was not a time, like there weren't such a thing as cartoons for adults. You had to basically watch Heavy Metal over and over again. Maybe Akira or something like that. This was like a cavalcade, a showcase of adult, weird, bizarre, hilarious cartoons. And it's actually where Beavis and Butthead got its start, therefore where Mike Judge got his start. Aon Flux was super cool. And in addition to just kind of launching some careers, it just laid the groundwork and showed that there's a huge appetite for people who are no longer in high school, who really love pot, maybe acid a little bit,

• 1:02:44Josh Clark?

  and watch TV, are willing to stay up late to watch cartoons. This showed that they were out there.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I didn't know until today that the animated show Daria was a spin off of Beavis and Butthead, that Daria was a character briefly on that show until you pointed that out.

• 1:03:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she was one of their classmates at high school.

• 1:03:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, so Daria was big. We can't, you know, we're running so long, we can't like dive into all of these. But we have to at least mention shows like Jackass and Cribs.

• 1:03:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:14Speaker 03

  And then, and then the birth of reality TV eventually was stuff like The Osbournes and Jersey Shore and Punk'd. But it all got started in 1992 with The Real World, which, I mean, clearly, I mean, you know, there was the 70s PBS show An American Family. But as far as the teenagers watching stuff, reality TV, I feel like was birthed with The Real World.

• 1:03:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And you can make a case, my hypothesis is that you can trace pretty much every problem that we have with the world today back to reality TV and ergo back to The Real World.

• 1:03:54Speaker 03

  That show was really good for a while. I will stand, I stand behind The Real World. I don't remember what season, I feel like it really jumped the shark. But I know that there are a lot of people that say it was the year that they, somebody got in the shower with somebody else and it became really just sort of like people were getting on there just because they knew they could be famous. But I feel like it had a more pure intent before that as a kind of a weird social experiment.

• 1:04:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, it wasn't the show itself that was problematic. It was the, the foundation that it created, the legacy it created.

• 1:04:26Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:27Josh Clark?

  Because like, I mean, if you like reality TV, great, good on you. I'm glad that it's out there for you, but it wrecked TV until the streamers came along. Like, if you liked a written scripted show, TS for you, because everyone went all in on reality for years and years and years. You had to basically get a subscription to HBO to watch like a decent TV show for a long time because reality TV got so popular and it was so cheap to make.

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. I don't want people to get mad if we don't mention Carson Daly and TRL. This was in the sort of days where I was fading out of MTV. So I wasn't as into it, but Carson Daly did a fine job on Total Request Live. And I'm also a big fan of the great Dave Holmes, who's a really good dude in real life and does some great things these days.

• 1:05:22Josh Clark?

  Was he on Total Request Live?

• 1:05:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know if he took over for Carson Daly or sort of pinch hit or sometimes, but I know he was definitely one of the hosts.

• 1:05:33Josh Clark?

  So a lot of people are like, what's this MTV you're talking about? And there's a good reason for that. And the reason why is because MTV just started to die. A thousand deaths by new channels and networks coming on.

• 1:05:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Josh Clark?

  It like, it would made a big decision when it went to half hour shows or non-music shows even in part because, as was explained later, if you are watching MTV in its original form, you're like, you have no control whatsoever on what's going to come up next. And I remember doing this quite clearly. You'd be watching a perfectly good winger video. And then all of a sudden comes, I don't know, some terrible video. I'm not going to call it anybody's favorite artist. And you would just immediately turn the channel because you knew you could turn back in three minutes and see what else was next. And they just got bled by that. And they found that half hour shows kept you in longer.

• 1:06:32Josh Clark?

  And if those shows weren't made up of music videos, but an actual narrative over the course of a half an hour, they lost less and less viewers. And so it just became sensible for them to get away from music. But, but fear not, because they said, if you still want music videos, don't worry. We will have you covered for the rest of your life with MTV two.

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  That's right. MTV two launched in 1996. It was like, hey, it's just gonna be music videos. We pinky swear.

• 1:06:59Josh Clark?

  Trust us.

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  Less than 10 years later, it was mostly reality shows and not music videos. YouTube really sealed the fate because you could just watch any music video ever by just typing it in your search bar on YouTube.

• 1:07:14Josh Clark?

  Like Gargantua Style?

• 1:07:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I watch music videos. There's still a show, I can't remember what it's called, that I see on Hulu, that just runs music videos. So I'll put that on sometimes if I'm like folding laundry.

• 1:07:28Josh Clark?

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:07:29Speaker 03

  For nostalgia, it's kind of nice.

• 1:07:31Josh Clark?

  If you, if you go on MTV, it's still around. I believe MTV two is still around too. There is a 98.75% chance that you will find an episode of ridiculousness playing.

• 1:07:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:45Josh Clark?

  It's been, it carries MTV almost single-handedly. It's a, it's a show where they just basically put together hilarious clips. It's like, um, It's like America's Funniest Home Videos for nihilists and skateboarders, basically, right?

• 1:08:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:02Josh Clark?

  And it's a good little show. You remember our friend Hampton Yount? Who was in one of our variety shows in LA?

• 1:08:08Speaker 03

  That's the only reason I know about Ridiculousness.

• 1:08:11Josh Clark?

  Yep. He was one of the writers on Ridiculousness. It's a cute little show, but it has propped up MTV so much that it's been on for 14 years since 2011, yet somehow it is in season 45.

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:08:27Josh Clark?

  That's how many episodes they crank out to keep MTV going. So hats off to Rob Drydek.

• 1:08:33Speaker 03

  It's the House Hunters of MTV.

• 1:08:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, essentially, for sure.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Uh, well, before we leave, I do want to quickly kind of mention the MTV contests. If you were a kid in the eighties, they had these crazy, crazy contests that you could enter. And they always seemed to kind of want to one up the last as far as what they would do.

• 1:08:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Speaker 03

  Uh, and they were, I mean, it was like, you know, you can win Bon Jovi's childhood home.

• 1:08:58Speaker 03

  You can win a pink house from John Mellencamp or John Cougar at the time in his small town or whatever. But they were, they were crazy. Um, there was one very famous story of the Van, like, party with Van Halen for two days. And this was in 1984 and this, this, I was about to say, poor guy, it's probably the best thing that ever happened to him. This guy named Kurt Jeffries has a legendary story of, uh, basically, like, they took it seriously. They weren't like, hey, let's just kind of get this kid in here and whatever, sign something. Like, they partied with him. They got him drunk and gave him cocaine and got a groupie to have sex with him in a bathroom. And like, he did the whole rock star thing. Van Halen was very intent.

• 1:09:41Speaker 03

  Like, apparently he woke up on day two and was like, I can't, uh, I've got to go home. And Alex Van Halen was like shoving a beer in his face and was like, you've got to do this, dude.

• 1:09:50Josh Clark?

  He said, you can't leave the spot until you drink that beer. And it was, it was a tall boy.

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:56Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah, I was gonna say, after you rattle all that off, that that was just day one.

• 1:10:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was day one. There was a day two.

• 1:10:03Josh Clark?

  And this was, this was a sponsored contest by MTV.

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, you, there's no way you could do that stuff these days, obviously. But they had a bunch of those, like, you know, Party with the Band. I know that the police had a sort of a disaster of a contest where they were supposed to fly on their private jet with the band. And I think that went all pear shaped. I remember very clearly Madonna had a contest that you at home could make the video for True Blue. And I just remember seeing like, bad homemade video after bad homemade video of True Blue over and over and over again, just so I could vote via phone.

• 1:10:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, the contest, those are a lot of fun. There are a lot more kind of fun ones. There's a kind of a cool Page Six article that covers some of the wackier contests they had.

• 1:10:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's definitely worth reading. Thanks for sending that to me. Ooh, Chuck, you got anything else?

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  No, I mean, we missed a ton. So it's just kind of one of those episodes. We tried to stuff as much as we could in here.

• 1:11:00Josh Clark?

  Yep. And keep an ear out for VH1, which should be following this one right after, right?

• 1:11:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. I say we skip listener mail even, it's been so long. And just say, go with God, go watch some music videos.

• 1:11:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, everybody's tired. Take the day off, everybody.

• 1:11:16Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:11:16Josh Clark?

  If you want to send us an email, you can. Send it off to [email protected].

• 1:11:25Speaker 05

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• 1:11:41Josh Clark?

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