The Tragic Life of Vincent Van Gogh

Van Gogh lived a troubled life and did not garner attention as a painter until after his death by suicide. Today we dive into this complicated journey as an artist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:41Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:52Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too. And we all have bandages around our heads out of sympathy for a truly great guy, from what I can tell.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah? Looks like a good dude.

• 2:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yes. Hi, everyone.

• 2:08Josh Clark?

  Hi.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  I'm Chuck.

• 2:10Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. I'm Chuck too. The deuce.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  What is going on? I thought you were, I thought you were Chuck Deportes.

• 2:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. Or the Ocho?

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, boy. I'm trying to make ESPN jokes and it's just not happening.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  It, that worked?

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  The Spanish version of ESPN. I got it.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  No, no, I know. But I'm just saying it's not good.

• 2:34Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, I can't argue with that.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Should we start over?

• 2:39Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck, just Chuck, and Jerry's here too. And this is stuff you should know.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  That's right. Chuck Deportes.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  Now we have to start over again. You ready? Here, we'll give everybody a little beep beep.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Can we talk about Van Gogh?

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what I was saying. We have bandages around our heads because we are in, are in solidarity. That's what I meant to say with a really great guy.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Have you ever seen any of the Van Gogh movies?

• 3:12Josh Clark?

  Um, I watched one last night. It was a documentary, but it was the documentary, the one where David Bowie plays Andy Warhol.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Which one did Bowie play Warhol in?

• 3:26Josh Clark?

  Basquiat.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Basquiat, right. Cause he was also played by Crispin Glover.

• 3:32Josh Clark?

  In The Doors.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  In The Doors. And Van Gogh was played by Willem Dafoe.

• 3:38Josh Clark?

  That was unwatchable.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Uh, I never saw that one.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  It was unwatchable.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Loving Vincent?

• 3:45Josh Clark?

  Uh, I think that's what it's called. Yeah. I'm almost positive. It's not because it's bad or the dialogue's bad or anything like that. It's just so shaky and rapid cut and shot from weird angles to, I guess, you know, represent his, his mental illness. That you, I couldn't watch it. I, I watched like 10 minutes. So I was like, oh no. I was disappointed.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I never saw that one. I did see the one from the nineties though, the Robert Altman film.

• 4:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, I didn't know he did one on, are you talking about Nashville?

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, shoot. That's, that's the one. No, Vincent Theo with Tim Roth as Van Gogh. Uh, that was a, yeah, 1990, I think it was a good movie.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  No idea. I'll have to go back and check that out.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd like to see it again. I don't think I've seen it since college.

• 4:31Josh Clark?

  I feel like a total schmo because I don't remember the name of the documentary, but essentially. The premise of it is these documentarians went from place to place through and just followed Van Gogh's life because he moved around a lot, as we'll see, and was inspired differently by the different places he lived. And they basically talked about how those places inspired him or how they beat him down or whatever. And then they would show, you know, his, his like paintings morphing into the, the structures that are still there today or vice versa. It was a really good documentary. They talked a lot about his life and it's a, it was good. It was very tranquil. I think there was

• 5:12Josh Clark?

  the same 30 seconds of very tranquil string music that they used over and over and over again, and it was not a problem.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  I think Van Gogh, I mean, you know, I don't know much about art history. We've talked, we've done quite a few shows about this kind of thing over the years and my appreciation for art has grown sort of in lockstep. I've always sort of liked Van Gogh's stuff for sure, but I like him even more now that I kind of understand that, you know, he never, well, I mean, most people, if they know anything about Van Gogh, know he never gained fame in his lifetime. But he certainly never tried to achieve fame as an artist by like painting what he thought people might want to see. He always painted what he, you know, his surroundings and like you said, depending on where he lived, that varied. And also it seems like really from the heart and his deep, deep emotions, which I have a lot of respect for.

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And that since he was a pioneer, same for me too, by the way, I really came to like him even more. I think we both came from the same exact spot and ended up in about the same exact spot too.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Look at us.

• 6:18Josh Clark?

  One thing I saw that kind of explained him to me at least was that he wanted to share the things he saw, the beauty he saw everywhere with the world because it was so beautiful. He wanted to provide that to the world, not in any kind of egotistical way or anything like that, but just like, this is so pretty. I'm going to try my best to, to express how this makes me feel and show the world. And then very sadly, the world was like, that's not very good. We don't want that. Thanks for sharing, but keep it to yourself.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's tough. I mean, in fact, in one letter to his brother Theo, he said his only anxiety was how can I be of use in the world? And his, you know, what he came to was to be an artist and that he really thought that had, and he was right, had a lot of value and that's how he would serve in a way.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  Right, right.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Kind of cool.

• 7:10Josh Clark?

  But before he became an artist, he pinged around here or there. He's a little aimless for a little while. And he was born in 1853 in the Netherlands or der Nederland.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Say Holland.

• 7:24Josh Clark?

  Sure. His father was Theodorus, or I guess it'd be Theodorus van Gaat. That's the correct way to say it. And I went back and I didn't listen to it, but I read the transcript from our episode seven, no wait, five mysteries of the art world where we talked about Van Gaat a lot. And you correctly said his name, I think here or there or throughout.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Probably was, yeah, I think I was probably making a joke from a Woody Allen movie.

• 7:52Josh Clark?

  As a matter of fact, you were. That's exactly, you mentioned that. Yeah.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a funny part, Van Gaat.

• 7:57Josh Clark?

  But the, the transcription, the AI transcribing it kept saying Van God. So I could tell that you were saying it Van Gaat. Okay.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought you were gonna say the AI transcription canceled what I said about Woody Allen.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  No, no.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  That'd be useful.

• 8:15Josh Clark?

  It'll, it's coming. Don't worry.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  So yeah, born in 1853, like you said, he had a bunch of siblings. He had five younger siblings. Theo, the most notable, because as you'll see, they had a very tight relationship and working relationship, which is why Robert Altman made the movie Vincent and Theo. Theo was younger by four years. Vincent was, you know, apparently a pretty moody, tough kid. And as we'll see, he, he certainly suffered from mental illness throughout his life. But his parents didn't know what to do with him, so they sent him to boarding school for about four years from 12 to 16, at which point he was like, you know what? I'm going to get involved in the art world as, in the way of being sort of like an apprentice to a, to a dealer. And he learned about the sales side.

• 9:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I get the impression he kind of fell into the art world because it was almost a family business, selling art was.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  The impression?

• 9:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Put that in your pipe and smoke it later, right?

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you're probably right.

• 9:16Josh Clark?

  Um, so he, uh, he worked there for, I think, seven years. Yeah. Until about age 23. And this was, it was during this period that he fell into what, um, I, I think is viewed as his first true, um, episode of depression, his bout of real depression. And it followed on the heels of a, uh, I didn't see exactly what it was. Livia helped us with this. She just describes it as a romantic disappointment. But, um, that seems to be a trend throughout his life where he did not, he was not lucky in love. I think the Little River Band would have called them the lonesome loser in that respect. Um, and that would trigger some of his, um, depressive episodes.

• 9:59Josh Clark?

  But as a result, his uncle or whoever ran his uncle's art dealership was like, sorry, you're fired.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he lost that job. Uh, but he did learn about the world of art and sort of the business of art, even though he didn't, uh, like I say, kind of kowtow to the business side of things. Uh, he got interested in religion for a little while after that job. And was a, I guess, an unordained or unlicensed preacher for about four years. He never got a theology degree or anything, but he did this work, um, sort of missionary work in Belgium and sort of the, the poorest parts of Belgium and coal country at the time. And he wanted to, you know, very admirably, didn't want to put on airs and he lived as, as the people around him lived and was very open and shared what he had with his parishioners.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Uh, but the church wasn't wild about that idea. I think they thought it was sort of beneath the, the parish. So he got fired from that job as a preacher.

• 10:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And I have the impression that he was taking steps to maybe please his father, um, and just trying to throw himself into religion. Cause he, he wanted something. He wanted some, some sort of connection to something bigger than him. And I guess that was just the easiest thing to try, but also his father, remember he was a Dutch minister. So,

• 11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  Um, I could see him doing that. And then he kind of failed at that. So that probably didn't sit all that well.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  I mean, isn't that kind of the story of a lot of people? Like boys trying to please daddy who didn't approve of them.

• 11:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. That's why I became a podcaster. My dad told me when I was like seven, he's like, I will never respect you unless you grow up to be a podcaster. And I was like, I can do that. He said, a good one. And I went, good.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I remember my dad at one point suggested I become a mail carrier when I was sort of aimless.

• 11:49Josh Clark?

  Just like Henry Chenasky.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Government job, good benefits, you could do worse. He was absolutely right. There's nothing wrong with that job.

• 11:55Josh Clark?

  No, of course not.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  I just wasn't so interested in that.

• 11:59Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, so he failed to please his father, if that's what he was doing, but he kind of.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  We all did.

• 12:05Josh Clark?

  Exactly, right. Well put. But he, he was struck by his time in Belgian coal country. And he hopped out of there for a little while, but he would kind of carry with him, as we'll see, once he became an artist, you know, this appreciation, or at least kind of this need to shine a spotlight on the toil and the suffering of his fellow humans, because he cared about them and he thought other people should care about him, too.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, he definitely carried around socialist ideas. He started to actually study painting, because like I said, he had written that letter to Theo saying that he wanted to become an artist to try and serve the world and bring the beautiful art. So he thought, you know, maybe I should study this stuff. Off and on, he lived with his parents, but that never worked out very well, as that happens sometimes in, in real life. He found them fairly suffocating. And so he would sort of move around in, between the Netherlands and Belgium for a period of years. That's not to say his family as a whole didn't support him, because Theo, as we'll see, was always very supportive. He was working in the art world. He worked for a big dealer.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  And he was very sort of hip to the art scene, Theo was.

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  And, you know, what was moving and he would end up representing not only his brother, who was not popular, but other artists who were not popular in critical circles like Monet and Gauguin and old Lautrec, Henri Toulouse Lautrec.

• 13:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like his brother had that foresight that was like, these new impressionist guys, I like what they're doing.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he knew it was up.

• 13:41Josh Clark?

  But he also, very importantly, saw like, my brother actually has something here. This is a good decision that he became an artist. It was not at all patronizing, even though Theo was his patron, uh, which is kind of confusing. He genuinely believed in his brother's ability. And, um, he very happily was like, I'm going to give you a monthly allowance that I saw was about equal to a, a minimum wage, what somebody would earn minimum wage. And it kept him, it kept Vincent in the art supplies. I think he spent 80% of it on art supplies and the other 20% on just living. Um, but he was able to live like that and just produce art. And that's what Theo wanted.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Vincent said, don't patronize me. And he said, well, that's tricky because technically I am.

• 14:28Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Uh, and that was about 20% of Theo's income. So it was not, you know, chicken scratch. He wasn't making a ton of money himself. Um, his cousin was also very supportive of him in the way of teaching him. His name was Anton Mav and he literally, quite literally taught him like how to paint with oil, how to paint with watercolors. Uh, and he had that, I guess it was that same, same uncle who he worked for. Um, would commission works and pay him occasionally to like, you know, paint stuff for him.

• 14:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's like, um, in art circles, um, Van Gogh is like very frequently cited as like only having sold one painting during his lifetime. That's not correct.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Not exactly.

• 15:09Josh Clark?

  But if you, you know, if you want to get technical, he sold several paintings, but they were like family and friends and stuff like that. He did sell one painting to one person he wasn't an acquaintance of. That's true.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, we're going to be myth busting a little bit along the way because Van Gogh seems like more so than other artists had a lot of, uh, kind of falsehoods bandied about over the years. Is that fair to say?

• 15:33Josh Clark?

  I get to wear the beret this time.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  So like you said, he never had a whole lot of luck with the ladies. Had a sort of a series of disappointments there, but eventually he would have about a year and a half relationship with a woman named Cien Hornick. This was in 1882. She was pregnant at the time and also had a five year old daughter, was a former sex worker, which his family didn't like any of this. And his father tried to get him, I guess, committed to an asylum. But, you know, Van Gogh was having none of it. He was in love.

• 16:11Josh Clark?

  No, but it would get easier and easier to have him committed as time went on. I guess this is just the first attempt and it didn't take. So, like I said, he was kind of taken with the idea of peasants, people toiling, people growing their own food or making their own living from the land, which he was infatuated with the land and nature in general. He's almost a transcendentalist, I guess, without quite knowing it. And he, when he moved back with his parents and then was bouncing back and forth between Belgium and the Netherlands for a little while, he was mostly doing studies and paintings of peasants. And one of his most famous paintings came out at this time.

• 16:53Josh Clark?

  One of his first masterpieces called The Potato Eaters was a study of, I think, five peasants sitting around a table, eating potatoes, drinking coffee. And it's like in hues of browns. Essentially, he said in a letter to Theo that he wanted it to basically be the color of a potato.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:14Josh Clark?

  Unpeeled, of course, is how he put it. And he nailed it. It's also, it's bleak and grim in a way, but at the same time, the people almost appear noble. But they're blocky and cartoonish almost.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:28Josh Clark?

  As far as their forms go. And that was all intentional, but everybody was like, this is terrible.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, people didn't love it. He was sending these paintings to Theo to like, hey, man, sell these. And hopefully that can kind of help pay you back. But he couldn't sell any of them at the time. And he took them to the art market in Paris there, but no one was into that. You know, his sort of, I don't want to say dour, but I guess it was fairly gloomy, just his color palette at least. This would all change though. In 1885, his father died. And he painted, you know, very much in tribute to his father, something called Still Life with Bible, which is shows sort of the contrast between himself and his father and their ideals. Because obviously, the open Bible on the table was is representing his father.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  But there was also another novel, La Joie de Vivre, and it was a socialist book by a socialist writer named Emil, I guess, Zola. And it was like, you know, here's a contrast between my father and I. I paint this in tribute, but I gotta get out of here now. Like, he needed a change in his life, I think, because of his father's passing. He wanted to move.

• 18:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he definitely did. He moved to Paris and he moved. I don't know if he moved in with Theo, but that would be my great guess.

• 18:47Josh Clark?

  Either way, Theo was living and working there and he moved to be close to Theo. And Theo introduced him to those artists he was repping in his circle. Like you said, Monet and Pizarro and Toulouse Lautrec. Like, they were like Van Gogh was hanging out with all of these guys and like learning from them. But at the same time, he was also impressing them too. And when he moved to Paris, something changed and he dropped those really gloomy colors in favor for like an increasingly bright, colorful palette. That like Paris somehow triggered that in him.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, you can never, or it's easy, I guess, rather than to go back after someone has passed and sort of judged their work compared to where they were in their life and think like you can kind of figure out things. But I guess my armchair psychology degree would point me in the direction of like almost being freed up a little bit by his father's passing as well. I know it upset him, but I think it also freed him up. So maybe that and the move to Paris, even though, as we'll see, he wasn't very much a city guy. I don't think it was a it was a coincidence that all of a sudden things kind of brightened in his life a little bit. Or it could have just been the the ups and downs of his his fragile, you know, mental state.

• 20:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it could be either, but that's a, I think you dug up an equally compelling idea. Where did you get your armchair psychology degree?

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Just right here on my armchair.

• 20:19Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. Well, you're a credit to your armchair.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, the right arm.

• 20:23Josh Clark?

  Is it a lazy boy? Is it Ethan Allen?

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Oh, you know, it's a lazy boy, buddy.

• 20:28Josh Clark?

  Okay, gotcha. So yeah, one of the first paintings that people are like, look, he came out of this gloom and doom stuff and now he likes color. The Hill of Montmartre with Stone Quarry.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Lovely.

• 20:40Josh Clark?

  Uh, is not part of the title. That was just me. But that was painted in 1886. And here's the thing that you should know about Van Gogh. He was, he started painting in 20, at age 27. He died at 37. In between that time, he painted almost 900 paintings. Many, many, many of them masterpieces. So in a 10 year period, everything you know about Van Gogh happened. And really you can kind of narrow it down to essentially the last three years of his life that were the most productive, where he really came into his own.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, that, that website you sent kind of broke down his productivity by location. And his five years in the Netherlands, he painted about four paintings a month, so 245. Couple of years in Paris, painted 227, so 10 paintings per month. His 14 months, as we'll see in, what would that be, Arles? Is that how you pronounce that?

• 21:40Josh Clark?

  Arle?

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Arle? Okay.

• 21:42Josh Clark?

  It just sounded like you're choking on a hard boiled egg.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  About 14 paintings a month, over 14 months. And then Saint Remy, is that right?

• 21:52Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  18 per month. And then finally, man, he was up to a painting per day by the time he ended up in that last place in France.

• 22:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like just a stunning number of paintings and like complete oil paintings. Not like he half started one or something like that. These were completed paintings, like that usually takes a day and a half, not a day.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can't paint anything. I can paint a wall.

• 22:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I could probably paint a wall in a day.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't, you don't have artistic talent like that either, do you?

• 22:23Josh Clark?

  No, and it's always bothered me. I wanted to draw for so long and I just can't do it.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can't, but we can both write, so.

• 22:32Josh Clark?

  Sure, yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  And we could both sing.

• 22:34Josh Clark?

  Right. We just need an extra thousand words for each picture. We can't both sing. Wait a minute. No, hold on.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Oh, slipping in a compliment.

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  I can't sing. I'm not taking that one.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  All right. Well, we'll get you some singing lessons and we'll be back right after this.

• 22:49Josh Clark?

  Okay.

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• 23:25Josh Clark?

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• 24:04Speaker 03

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• 24:07Josh Clark?

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• 25:09Josh Clark?

  Sure.

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• 26:12Josh Clark?

  So despite moving to Paris, Chuck, we're back, by the way.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 26:16Josh Clark?

  He was still very much drawn to rural areas. That's where he found his most inspiration. He liked the light and the color out there. Although he did paint a lot of city stuff, like a cafe terrace at night. That's one of my favorites. There was, there were plenty of city paintings, but far and away, he did like landscapes, some seascapes, that kind of stuff.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:38Josh Clark?

  And that, that was no different in, when he was in Paris. So he really started to kind of pick up painting the land around that time, too. And then he was also inspired by Japanese art during this time.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Those woodblock prints, which I didn't even know what woodblocks was until probably 10 years ago. And I just loved the stuff. It's really pretty incredible, especially the process. But he was inspired not to do woodblock, but to kind of recreate that just using, you know, paint.

• 27:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Very, you know, contrasting colors and bold outlines. And he started, and I don't know how common this is, and you know, I know people are inspired, but he kind of straight up copied some other people at times in his career. And I don't think like suffered in posthumously for that, unless I'm wrong.

• 27:29Josh Clark?

  No.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Okay. That was the case here. He recreated a Japanese woodblock sudden shower over Shinohashi Bridge and Atake in 1887, but again, using brushstrokes.

• 27:41Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. And I mean, both of them are pretty impressive, but yeah, the idea that the original by Utagawa Hiroshige is like carved out of wood, inked and then stamped is just how, you know?

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's incredible.

• 27:58Josh Clark?

  So also in Paris, we talked about how he suffered his first real depressive episode in his early twenties. Paris was the point where his full-blown recurring mental illness really started to take hold. It seems like the more he pushed himself, the more exhausted he got, the more his, his mental illness was triggered. And he could push himself. That guy, I mean, like you said, he was painting a painting a day, day after day after day for a while. So

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, toward the end, too.

• 28:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was very capable of working until he was exhausted. So he really started doing that around this time, 1887, 88, that kind of thing. And I guess he lived in Paris for two years and then moved to Arles, which I know is not exactly how you say it, but it's in Provence. And I mean, dude, if you want to be like inspired by nature, just move to Provence.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Never been there.

• 28:57Josh Clark?

  I haven't either, but just from pictures I've seen on the TV.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:01Josh Clark?

  I'm telling you, it's inspiring.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, he wanted a more chill life, for sure. So in 1888, that's when he split. He was painting a little more intensely at this point, and the colors got even more bold. And his, his brushwork, like, I think that's one of the things he was got inspired by from the Impressionists was really kind of showing the brushwork.

• 29:25Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden, you're getting those farm fields and the wheat, a lot of wheat, orchards, stuff like that. And then eventually, he would paint a lot of the Yellow House is what he called it, where he lived. He, he lived there and he would end up renting out rooms, as we'll see, to different painters. And that's where the sunflowers started too, very famous for his sunflower paintings.

• 29:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's one that I saw was called the still life version of the Mona Lisa. That's how good it is. Another thing I didn't realize, I've seen much of his work, but from researching this, I kept zooming into paintings that, that we were talking about. And he was really good. Like when you zoom in and look at the brushwork and see what he's doing with it, it's a whole different painting. I mean, it's impressionism for you, but it's, it looks so much more childish. And I know his work was described like that during his lifetime, from like zoomed out, like normally how you would look at a painting, but when you go into it, it's like such genius that it almost seems like it would be difficult to make it look

• 30:34Josh Clark?

  childish. It's that good. You know what I mean?

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, when I go to museums, I, you know, I make sure I'm not obnoxious about it and like block people and stuff. But when I get a chance, I will, I will get in there as close as, you know, allowable, to really kind of look at what's going on on a close level and not for any kind of, obviously, study for myself because I don't paint, but there's something about it that makes it a little more, uh, real, like you can actually see like what somebody was doing rather than, you know, just looking at the whole from afar.

• 31:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it definitely connects you more to the painter, for sure. Cause you, it sinks in, like somebody was standing in front of this canvas like 150 years ago, putting their brush to it, like that happened at one point, you know?

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I love that stuff.

• 31:20Josh Clark?

  Do you get really close and put your finger right over and go, I'm not touching it, I'm not touching it to the security guard?

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, sometimes if they're not looking, I like to chip a little piece of the paint off and just take it as a souvenir.

• 31:33Josh Clark?

  You like stick it inside your cheek to smuggle it out?

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:37Josh Clark?

  So, uh, yeah, sunflowers, that was the one that I really, I first really looked at and was like, oh my God, this is way better than I thought it was.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:45Josh Clark?

  Uh, he started, he's also obviously very well known for Starry Nights. Um, and his first one was Starry Night Over the Rhone River, uh, in 1888. And, um, his Starry Nights would be kind of like a A gift and a curse, like they became his, his most beloved works essentially. But he kind of beat himself up about him because he's like, this isn't quite right. But I almost get the impression that to him, they were right. But he just, he was kind of adjusting his interpretation of them. Based on the feedback he was getting from everybody else, like he was subsuming his feelings about it to everybody else's dislike of it. Like, yeah, you're right. It's not very good kind of thing.

• 32:28Josh Clark?

  It seemed to be specific to the Starry Night.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. And just how tough was that as, as a, someone who obviously was extremely talented and producing what would be some of the most beloved works of art after his death. To constantly be getting that feedback from art critics. And although he wasn't even on the radar of really art critics, but people who he would show to. And then his own brother, who was such a supporter, but had to constantly break the news of like, nobody wants to buy this stuff.

• 32:56Josh Clark?

  Right. And Vincent was like, but do you have to tell me like verbatim how much they said they hated it every time? Can you just tell me you didn't sell any of this week?

• 33:05Speaker 02

  This guy said it looked like snot on canvas. I don't know what to tell you.

• 33:09Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. And also, again, if you take into account Chuck, that he's not just like trying to do a still life photo realistically and not quite getting it. So it's like your, your, your expertise isn't that good. He's like putting himself on the canvas and people are rejecting it. So they're rejecting him as a human being as far as he's concerned.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So he's in the Yellow House. He said he would rent it out to other artists. Uh, one of those, thanks to Theo, ended up being Gogon because Theo was like, hey, listen. Can I pay your expenses and you go move in with my brother? Because I really think it will, uh, I think the quote was it'll make a big change in your life. Um, and he, you know, he was hoping that one would inspire the other because obviously he was repping them both, but he wanted good things for Vincent. And that, that sort of worked and it didn't like they were both very productive. Uh, they, they painted each other's portraits very famously. Um, and, but they also fought a lot. Uh, it was just a very volatile relationship to the point where on Christmas Eve,

• 34:15Speaker 02

  1888, um, Gauguin was already planning on leaving. This wasn't the impetus for him to leave, but, uh, Van Gogh threw a glass of absinthe in his face, which I imagine, I mean, no liquor in your face is great. I imagine absinthe is probably one of the worst ones to get thrown in your face.

• 34:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it stains your shirt.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and probably stings, I would imagine. I don't know.

• 34:35Josh Clark?

  So Gauguin was like, I'm out of here. And he left and Van Gogh was like, "Hey, you can't leave. I'm leaving." And, uh, he threatened him with a razor. Apparently, as far as the, um, the standard story goes, Gauguin kept going and, um, Van Gogh returned to the, the house, used the razor to cut his ear off, wrapped it up and took it to a sex worker at a local brothel and, um, was rejected by her. It's from this, this gift was rejected by her. Um, that is, there's some problems with that, but it's probably the, the correct story.

• 35:16Josh Clark?

  But there's another school of thought that Gauguin actually cut it off and Van Gogh covered for him because Gauguin was apparently a master swordfighter, carried a sword around with him. And it's quite possible he took Vincent's ear off for being threatened with a razor.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Right. Uh, also another version of the story, they believe they found that the woman was actually a maid at the brothel.

• 35:37Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Uh, and not a sex worker, but those are sort of nitpicky details, I think. Um, certainly cutting off your own ear wouldn't be nitpicky. Uh, cause that's a, you know, a, a true sign of a desperate sort of, um, sort of upset that you can only feel if you're suffering from severe mental illness. So.

• 35:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, self mutilation is, is super sad and, um, I think there's also like some interpretations that it might have been influenced by the bull fighting ritual where you cut off a bull's ear to present it to a lady, but I don't know. I'm not so sure about that.

• 36:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that seems like something he would have done on like a calm day then. If that was the purpose of it, to present it to a lady, that almost seems like it was just some impulsive thing that was tacked on to the end of something that he wasn't planning. You know?

• 36:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. But the cops found him the next day, I think. He was unconscious. They obviously went to the hospital and he was in a state of psychosis for a few days in the hospital and a doctor there said, you think you have epilepsy? So, and I don't think we mentioned, you know, he's suffering from, from bouts of mental illness off and on throughout his life to this point, but also physical manifestations are happening that in retrospect, people are like, yeah, it wasn't just mental illness coming out physically like he, it seems like he probably really did have epilepsy. So they gave him potassium bromide, which he said, Vincent said, curled or at least stopped his intolerable hallucinations, but he was still fainting a lot.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  And he apparently didn't have any memory of what happened with Gogon or the ear.

• 37:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So he was in that hospital for a little while. This wasn't a psychiatric hospital. This is like a hospital, hospital. I also saw Chuck in that documentary that as a gift to the doctor who cared for him, he presented him with a painting of one of the wards in the hospital and the doctor was like, no, thanks. It's not very good.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  So didn't even accept it?

• 37:42Josh Clark?

  Did not even accept it.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 37:45Josh Clark?

  So he was released from the hospital. He pretended he was scratching his temple, but it was with his middle finger as he was saying bye with, to the doctor.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  That old move?

• 37:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And he started painting again, but the, the hospital visit helped his epilepsy. It did not help the bouts of mental illness that he just kept suffering over and over and over again. In between, he would just work at like a breakneck pace and then exhaust himself, have another episode of mental illness and go to the hospital, get out.

• 38:19Josh Clark?

  Work until he exhausted himself again and again. And so finally, the hospital was like, look, man, we, you're in the wrong place now. Like you're, you need a different kind of care than we could offer. And so he checked himself into a sanitarium at Saint Remy. And he was there for a year being treated. And it actually helped him quite a bit being there.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  I think that's a good place for a break because something very interesting happened while he was there. Is that a good time?

• 38:49Josh Clark?

  I think so.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be right back, everybody.

• 39:01Josh Clark?

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• 39:37Josh Clark?

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• 40:56Josh Clark?

  World Mental Health Day takes place in October, and it's really meant to be more than just awareness. It's about actually taking the next step and getting support if you need it.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  But a lot of people still talk themselves out of therapy. They think it's too expensive, they're not sure if it'll actually work, they don't know how to find the right therapist, or they just get overwhelmed trying to navigate the whole system.

• 41:15Josh Clark?

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• 41:29Speaker 02

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• 41:35Josh Clark?

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• 41:47Speaker 02

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• 42:09Speaker 02

  All right, everyone, we're back. And I said something very interesting happened while he was in the sanitarium. And one thing I mentioned earlier was he painted about 18 paintings per month. He produced 143 paintings while he was staying in this sanitarium. And one of which was not a Starry Night, but the Starry Night, or just Starry Night.

• 42:32Josh Clark?

  Sure. Pretty impressive, huh?

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:36Josh Clark?

  He said that, um, uh, he wrote in a letter, I guess, that to his sister, uh, Wilhelmina, about him wanting to make a Starry Night. And then in like the next breath, he recommends she read Walt Whitman's poetry. And people went and read Song to Myself and said, there's like two stanzas in here that basically describe what Starry Night looks like. We think that Walt Whitman essentially inspired this painting and it seems to be the consensus.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, and if you've never seen Starry Night, um, you should. All you have to do is go to the Museum of Modern Art in New York City and walk around until you see crowds of people.

• 43:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah. They said it's their most visited painting in their whole collection.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, uh, that one's, you can't get close anyway, but, um, it's tough to even to get a great view, period. It's just, there's a lot, a lot of folks around that.

• 43:27Josh Clark?

  Wow. Wow. Um, yeah, I, I would love to see that one. I, I don't believe I ever have in.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Have you not seen that one?

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  I don't believe so. I've been to MoMA, but that seems like weird that I wouldn't have seen it. But then again, why didn't I form a memory of seeing it?

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Well, you also don't like crowds of people. So maybe you're like, I don't know what's going on over there, but no, thanks.

• 43:46Josh Clark?

  That is possible. But yeah, so I, I, um, have seen it on the internet, at very least, if not in person. And it's got, um, swirls in it that represent the wind, like the stars are huge and out of proportion and glowing. The moon is all odd and it's like a landscape at night. But he just captured all of it so perfectly. And it's, it's all a very, it's, the background's very dark. It's dark blues and stuff like that. But it's a very soothing, like happy painting. Um, and this was, uh, what I was talking about earlier, that, um, even Theo was like, this, I don't like this, man. And I guess, um, Vincent wrote that, uh, he was once again allowing myself to do stars too big.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. He said, "The search for style takes away the real sentiment of things," which sounds a little bit like a, uh, Um, not form over fashion, fashion over form or something. I don't know, like, like just trying to make something super stylistic, but it doesn't really mean anything, which I'm sure cut pretty deeply. Um, so while this is going on, uh, he, you know, is continuing to kind of slip up and down on his, as far as his, his mental illness is concerned. Uh, at some point he started to like eat paint. Um, some people thought it might've been a, a suicidal thing, but, uh, it might've also been pica as part of his mental illness, which is interesting.

• 45:09Josh Clark?

  There's a legend that it was yellow paint and that he wanted to be happy inside, which doesn't, I don't think hold up.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. Well, he, um, because partially because of that, he stayed away from paint altogether for a little while because, uh, he also had a lot of like many, many drawings throughout his career, and this is his drawing period.

• 45:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I like way more drawings than paintings, right?

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Oh, I think so. Yeah.

• 45:33Josh Clark?

  So Theo and, uh, he got married, I think in 18, uh, 89, maybe?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  That sounds right.

• 45:41Josh Clark?

  To a woman named, uh, Joe Bonger or Bonger, who, uh, would eventually play a really pivotal role in Vincent Van Gogh's posthumous life. Um, and they honored him by naming their son, their only child Vincent, after, uh, the kid's uncle. And Van Gogh was very, very touched by this and he painted one of my, I think one of the most beautiful paintings he ever did, Almond Blossom.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  I agree, buddy.

• 46:07Josh Clark?

  It's great. Um, yeah, just go look it up. It's very much in like the Japanese style.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Uh, for sure.

• 46:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And he painted it for the baby and like despite, you know, years and decades of, um, Van Gogh paintings being sold by the family, that one did not go up for sale. And it's even in the Van Gogh museum still today.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. The baby didn't want it either though.

• 46:29Josh Clark?

  Hey, so this is not very good. Give me my baba.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Spit up. Spit up on it.

• 46:34Josh Clark?

  Gross.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  I always hated that term.

• 46:37Josh Clark?

  It's a pretty bad term, yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Uh, so Theo officially said, you know what? I'm gonna, I'm gonna start really submitting your paintings. Like, I think you are good and nobody knows it. So he started really submitting, um, at a more sort of serious, rapid pace in 1888, specifically the annual Salon des Independants. Uh, in 1890, and this is just a few months before Van Gogh would, would die.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  He was not, still not getting any, uh, almost any attention. But finally, in January that year, he started to get a little bit of, not critical, like praise, but just people, uh, like critics, looking at his stuff and writing about his stuff.

• 47:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  Uh, the first one, I think, was an art critic named, uh, Albert Aurier, who published, I think, the very first Van Gogh review. Um, and he said, "They initially appear strange, intense, and feverish, but reflected the continual search for the most essential sign of each thing." So he was kind of getting it, I think.

• 47:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was digging him. Um, yes, and then in 18, so I think 1888, 1889, and 1890, his work, thanks to Theo, appeared in the salon in Paris. Um, he was also featured in, um, a Belgian salon called Le Vent, the 20. Um, and this is where he sold his first, um, his, or his one and only painting to somebody he didn't really know, right?

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a, uh, it was a painter, another painter, named Anna Bach, and, but she bought The Red Vineyard. And, um, that, I think, maybe, well, I don't know if that was the impetus, but, uh, that's when things started to pick up a little bit. Um, I think later that spring, uh, the salon showed 10 of his paintings, which was a big deal. Um, May of that year, May of 1890, uh, and this was after a year of being in the sanitarium. He finally was discharged. And that's where he moved to a, a pretty quiet place, not too far from Paris, uh, where he had a good doctor on hand, who was able to kind of keep up with them. And that doctor was like, "Hey, man, you know what you need to do is paint." Like, "You seem to be doing best when you're really concentrating on the paintings,

• 48:50Speaker 02

  so you should do that," and he did.

• 48:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he threw himself into it again. Like you were saying, that last, that last few months or the last year, he was painting about a painting a day. And I've seen it like, people say that almost as if he knew like his time was running out and he wanted to get as much out as he could. He focused a lot on wheat fields, which he said earlier was one of his favorite subjects.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:12Josh Clark?

  Apparently that represented like the sowing and the reaping of it was like renewal and death and life and birth and all that to him. And he was, I guess, pretty close to Paris in Auver. And he went and traveled once to visit Theo. And he found that Theo was talking about going out, striking out on his own, setting up his own art dealership. And Vincent was like, man, that is to himself. He thought this is quite a risky gamble. You know, what's going to happen to my monthly stipend? Is that like in jeopardy? But also, that will automatically make me a burden to my brother. Like even if he becomes successful, it's not going to be overnight.

• 49:54Josh Clark?

  And in that time, between him taking this big risk and becoming a success, I'm going to be an even bigger burden than I am. That was something he concluded.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that was in July of 1890. And later that month, on July 27th, he shot himself in the chest and took his own life. We covered that in more detail in the, what was it, Mysteries of the Art World?

• 50:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, seven. No, wait, five Mysteries of the Art World from 2021.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you can, you can go get that full story there. But yeah, it was, I think he, they, he didn't die immediately. And Theo made it from Paris to be there with him when he died a couple of days later.

• 50:36Josh Clark?

  Which is so sweet. I mean, they, they were so tight. They were actually buried next to one another in that town.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, tight, but also fraught. You know, there was a lot of arguing and stuff too, but that's brother stuff.

• 50:47Josh Clark?

  But that was mostly from Vincent's side, right?

• 50:50Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I just, you know, saw it could be a rough relationship. But again, as brothers and also business partners, and one had a real tough time with mental illness. So it's, none of it is unexpected.

• 51:03Josh Clark?

  So again, it's very much bandied about that Van Gogh was unknown and unappreciated in his time. And generally, that's true. But like when he was showing at the salons, other painters like Monet would say to Theo, like, tell your brother that his was the best work at the salon. Like, he's great. He had a claim with people who knew what they were talking about. But generally, he didn't. The reason why we know of him today, and the reason why his genius is seen and valued is because of Jo Bonger, his sister in law, who very shortly, I think, six months after Vincent died, Theo died. Some say of a broken heart,

• 51:46Josh Clark?

  some say of syphilis, some say of both. And she inherited like all of, essentially, all of Vincent Van Gogh's paintings.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, this is kind of the, in a way, sort of the hero of the story here. Because now with Theo gone, and Vincent still having not achieved great fame, you're left with Jo to do something. And, you know, she was like, listen, I don't have a background in this. This was my husband's line. So she taught herself. She devoted herself to studying art. She devoted herself to studying the business of art. And she really worked tirelessly to, after his death, raise his profile. And I get the impression that it wasn't like, oh, I got all these paintings, so I can get a lot of money. It was like to honor someone she thought was really talented.

• 52:39Josh Clark?

  Yes, absolutely. Yeah, she wanted to make sure that he was appreciated, finally, even if it wasn't in his lifetime. She had a hard time going at first. Like, she still couldn't quite convince people. I guess she was just being like, look, see, it's good, it's good. And that wasn't taking. So she went through the letters between Theo and Vincent that Theo had kept, and realized, like, he talks, Van Gogh talks a lot about, like, his style, his technique, his inspiration, his mental health struggles in these letters. And she was like, this is how you interpret Vincent Van Gogh's work. You understand his background, his biography, his struggles. And that now is just so commonplace and ubiquitous. That's just part of learning about art. And this is where it came from. It came from

• 53:24Josh Clark?

  Jo Bonger trying to get people to understand Vincent Van Gogh.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is, I never knew that. It's a super cool kind of cherry on this story. Uh, that when you go and you read about the artists and that just adds so much more to it that that came from her idea. Which is pretty amazing. Um, she got up initially a critic named Jan Veth. Who, uh, did not love the paintings, but then after the letters, that's when Jan came around. And was swayed and was like, he really, uh, quote, seeks the raw root of things. And I think, you know, once they knew this story, they were like, oh my gosh, this is this tortured human that put. Everything into these paintings and now I'm seeing them in a different light and. That was, that was it. I think since her death in 1925.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  You know, his paintings have sold to the tune of about a hundred and seventeen million dollars. Uh, the Van Gogh museum there in Amsterdam, which, uh, I've been to, it's well worth a trip. Opened in 1973, gets a couple of million visitors every year. And he's one of the most famous painters of all time now.

• 54:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And one of the reasons why I saw is because. He wore his heart on his sleeve. He did the same thing with his painting and people just. Connect with that. And I mean, just from listening to this, Chuck, I, I imagine a lot of people were like, ah, he, he really was kind of a neat guy. Yeah, a tortured artist too. And that's another place where this kind of came from. Uh, the idea of somebody suffering for their art. And their art being great because of their struggles with mental illness. That also kind of came from the profile of Van Gogh being raised at the same time. And over time, people have been like, well, what, what did he suffer from specifically? We don't really know, but.

• 55:08Josh Clark?

  There are some clues here or there that, that, um, kind of point in a couple of directions.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, I think everyone agrees, like I said earlier, that he was epileptic, but, um. You know, probably bipolar disorder is what a lot of people agree on, possibly schizophrenia. You know, he talked about hallucinations and stuff like that. He also drank a lot, which definitely did not help along the way. He did not, in his like, previous family history, at least as far as anyone knows, have a long documented history of mental illness, but one of his sisters was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was in an asylum, I think a few years after Vincent died. And he had a brother named Cornelius who died in South Africa while serving in the army.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  And it is speculated that he may have taken his own life as well.

• 56:02Josh Clark?

  Right. You have a 10% chance of having schizophrenia if one of your siblings does. And for people in the general population, it's just 1%. So that definitely increased the possibility. Before we finish, Chuck, I just want to briefly mention that anecdote that was in that one article I sent you about that cafe being foreclosed on with all of his paintings trapped inside.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:25Josh Clark?

  So he was showing, like, I think they said 100 paintings or something. In this cafe, it was like an exhibit of Van Gogh, like early Van Gogh stuff when he first moved to Paris. And the cafe owner like wasn't making their payments, so the cafe got foreclosed on, locked up. And everything inside, including Van Gogh's paintings, which were not owned by the cafe, were auctioned off. And they were so disliked that they were bundled together in bunches of 10 so that people who bought them could go and scrape the paintings off and sell them at a higher price than they bought the 10 Van Goghs for as blank canvases.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 57:03Josh Clark?

  And he still was just like, well, I guess I need to just get up and dust myself off. He was like the Joe Dirt of the 19th century French and Dutch art world.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  I never saw that.

• 57:15Josh Clark?

  Same thing. He was essentially a Van Gogh.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Okay, all right.

• 57:20Josh Clark?

  Uh, okay. Thanks for humor me with that one, because that's just too great.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  I love it. Good story.

• 57:24Josh Clark?

  All right. Well, Chuck said that was a good story, so I think we should end this on a high note and go straight to listener mail.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  This is about the 737 Max. Hey, guys. Love the show. Been listening for a few years. I'm an embedded control software engineer, not for Boeing, but in another industry where mistakes could kill people. For me, Boeing was always an aspirational company. So watching the news on MCAS was like meeting a disappointing drunk hero. At the time, my peers and I were following the news and doing our best to read between the lines. We were frankly disgusted to see that they actually deployed a single point of failure all the way to production. It was baffling to us because we knew our internal processes would have stopped the program dead with that much risk. Surely Boeing held even higher standards. It was clear that a complete cultural and ethical breakdown occurred to allow the MCAS

• 58:16Speaker 02

  to exist without redundancy and censor voting or rationality checks. And "voting" is in quotes. Even worse, they allowed a helper system enough control authority to destabilize the vehicle. It's antithetical to the Control's engineering title. Anyway, certainly didn't expect to reignite professional rage on my commute today, guys. But that was a 10 out of 10 episode. And that is from Travis, last name withheld.

• 58:44Josh Clark?

  Nice. Travis, somebody who knows what they're talking about gave us a 10 out of 10, Chuck.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, that always feels nice.

• 58:51Josh Clark?

  I assume there's a would recommend after that.

• 58:53Speaker 02

  I hope so.

• 58:55Josh Clark?

  I'm going to assume that Travis works in the lawn dart industry.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  You're right. There you go.

• 59:01Josh Clark?

  If you want to be like Travis and send us an awesome email because you're an expert in something we talked about, we love that kind of stuff. Even if you're like, you guys kind of got this wrong. That's all right. We want to hear from you. Send us an email to [email protected].

• 59:20Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 59:35Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F Cam. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 1:00:17Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  In Orlando, meetings reach another level thanks to a growing list of award-winning restaurants, a world-class convention center, a great hotel community, easy access through the airport, and of course, the weather.

• 1:00:53Josh Clark?

  That's right Chuck. Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive level team members as well. And we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience. He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  And while you may know Orlando for its attractions, industries like healthcare, aerospace and advanced manufacturing make it a hub for cutting-edge businesses. Or, in the words of Mr. Moyes, Orlando can really be that destination where you can innovate, collaborate and look to the future. And that's what makes Orlando unbelievably real. Learn more at orlandoforbusiness.com.

• 1:01:44Speaker 06

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.