The Story of Tavern on the Green

Tavern on the Green is a legendary NY eatery that has never rated particularly well with food critics. Despite that, it's been a NYC mainstay for decades. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:04Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:14Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's even here, too. So this is a real deal episode of Stuff You Should Know. Let's go.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  That's right. Another New York adish.

• 1:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we're putting them out every week now.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  It's been a while.

• 1:32Josh Clark?

  No, it hasn't. We just did Studio 54 a few weeks back.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:37Josh Clark?

  That's pretty New York.

• 1:39Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it's super New York. By the way, I went, I sent you pictures, but I went by Studio 54.

• 1:45Josh Clark?

  I know. I saw that.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  It was kind of cool. They still have the, the doors that say Studio 54. They left a few iconic bits. I was on that sidewalk in front of it, trying to imagine people having sex on the sidewalk and I got really grossed out.

• 2:02Josh Clark?

  Could, oh, you could envision it?

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. God, you should, I should have picked out a hotter couple, maybe in my mind, but

• 2:10Speaker 02

  didn't do it.

• 2:11Josh Clark?

  No, you got Dan Aykroyd as a wild and crazy guy.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  I saw that movie too, when I was there, by the way.

• 2:17Josh Clark?

  What movie?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  The Saturday Night Live movie. About the, the first episode of Saturday Night Live.

• 2:25Josh Clark?

  So you saw, you, in your most recent New York trip, you saw there's a movie out, is what you're saying about Saturday Night Live?

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's Jason Reitman's new movie. It's called Saturday Night.

• 2:36Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, good for him. I like most of his stuff.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you're a fan of SNL, the movie is good enough, I think.

• 2:43Josh Clark?

  Do they portray Chevy Chase like my dad taught me to think of him?

• 2:48Speaker 02

  The guy who played Chevy Chase was great.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  Was it Chevy Chase?

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Uh, Chevy Chase Jr.

• 2:54Josh Clark?

  Okay. Junior.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  It's like when Ice Cube got his son to play him.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Like, cause he looks just like him. It was pretty perfect.

• 3:02Josh Clark?

  That kid did really well until the hospital scene where Eazy-E's dying. Up until that moment, I was like, this kid's pretty good for amateur.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  And even after that too, it's just like one brief moment and it can be forgiven.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, how do you think you would do in an Eazy-E death scene? Huh? Mr. Big Shot?

• 3:23Josh Clark?

  I would, I'd be pretty over the top, I think.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Easy.

• 3:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, pounding on the walls and sobbing.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we were both just decided at the same time. It's time to get on with the episode, huh?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, enough of that.

• 3:38Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, we're talking about Tavern on the Green. And I know for a fact that we're talking about Tavern on the Green because you recently dined at Tavern on the Green. And after reading all of this stuff, I actually am, I'm curious to know what you thought of it because I'm curious. That's why. Let's just leave it at that.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Well, have you been? Did I ask you that?

• 4:00Josh Clark?

  You didn't and no. So no to both of those.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  How about this? I'll save my review of the experience till the end.

• 4:08Josh Clark?

  I think that's a great plan.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Just to tantalize listeners.

• 4:12Josh Clark?

  So let's go, well, we'll tell everybody, if you're not familiar with Tavern on the Green, it's a legendary restaurant, in part because of its location. It's in one of the better restaurant locations in the United States. It's on Central Park. It's actually a part of Central Park, so much so that the city's Parks Department actually owns the restaurant. They just lease it out to different operators who want to try their hand at making it like the premier dining establishment in Manhattan. And at multiple times, it has been exactly that. But what a lot of people don't know, especially if you're not familiar with the restaurant, is that it actually started out as a sheep enclosure. Sheep used to sleep in Tavern on the Green.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, I think that the fact that it's owned by the Parks Department is the fact of the episode. I had no idea until yesterday.

• 5:01Josh Clark?

  Uh, okay, yeah. It's definitely up there for sure in this one.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, but Sheepfold is a sheep enclosure. And for the first 60 years or so, that's what Tavern on the Green was. Like you said, just as a sort of a quick recap, if you want to listen to our Central Park episode about the history of Central Park, it's well worth a listen. But when Frederick Law Olmsted and Calvert-Vox designed Central Park, they won a contest in 1858, a design contest for their Greensward Plan. Part of the plan called for a parade ground and a very big playground right at 66th Street on the west side of the park.

• 5:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And the thing took so long to build. I think they, they were awarded the contract for their plan in 1858. And by 1870, they were still building this. And they were like, parade grounds are so 1850s, we don't want one of those anymore.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  We're gonna go, we're gonna turn it into a sheep meadow instead, because apparently sheep were all the rage at the time. And I think that actually goes to show, even by the 1870s, New York was so urbanized that people yearned for a kind of a pastoral setting, so much so that they made a sheep meadow with sheep in the middle of Manhattan in Central Park so that people could come, you know, take in the sheep.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it will not take them into their homes.

• 6:35Josh Clark?

  Visually.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  We've talked a lot about Boss Tweed. Obviously, anytime we're talking about this period, this era of New York. Boss Tweed ran the city and his cronies got involved with the Central Park Planning Board and said, all right, we're going to do some upgrades. Six million dollars worth, in fact, which is a ton of money back then and today. But one of the new additions was a really fancy sheepfold at 67th and Central Park West that was really beautiful. It was designed by Jacob Ray Mold, one of the guys who designed a lot of the actual buildings there in Central Park, of which there are not a ton of, but they all have

• 7:19Speaker 02

  a distinct sort of, they're all sort of like made of stone and they all are really kind of classy and old school looking.

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  Neo Gothic.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, neo Gothic. He was really into that Gothic revival stuff. So Mold designed this beautiful sheepfold and people would, like you said, they would come, it was almost like a, like an interactive little museum. They could come and look at the sheep. They could come and touch different varieties of wool. They would shear those sheep and sell that wool in a big event every year. And it was like, like you said, it was like, hey, you tired of the city? And go watch those beautiful Dorset sheep and touch their, they're almost had fur, their wool.

• 8:04Josh Clark?

  Right. Good catch. Yeah, New York loves its unofficial mascots. It loves adopting mascots. And I get the impression that that flock of sheep was one of them at the time. So they lived there from the 1870s up until 1934. And they were moved to Prospect Park in Brooklyn. I read somewhere that one of the rumors about that move was that a Hooverville, basically a tenement camp that was set up by people during the Depression to survive in, they were worried that they were going to start poaching sheep. So they moved them from Central Park to Prospect Park to protect the sheep.

• 8:46Speaker 02

  I believe that.

• 8:48Josh Clark?

  But there's a couple of things about that that sheep enclosure that became Tavern on the Green. One of the things was that the Central Park Zoo, sometimes they would have extra animals, I guess more than they could care for. So they would put them in the sheep enclosure temporarily until they could find someone to sell it to. And at one point, there was a puma in there with the sheep, and I'm quite sure the sheep did not like that at all.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that probably wasn't a good move. They did enjoy their home because this thing in 1871 cost $70,000 to build.

• 9:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  And like I said, it was it was a beautiful building. They had these pavilions built for people to sit in to watch. And these pavilions had these bucolic pastoral murals. And it was just a lovely little scene there. They even had, of course, a shepherd. The last one to work there worked there for the the final two decades until 1934. His name was Frank Hoey. And he watched over the herd and lived there. And in 1934, that's like you said, when everything changed, when Parks Commissioner Robert Moses, very famous New York figure, said, you know what? This sheepfold should be a restaurant.

• 9:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and should be is a weird way to put it because when he announced it, they'd already started construction on converting it

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:07Josh Clark?

  to a restaurant. That was a like a tried and true Robert Moses trick. Where he's he's well known, by the way, is overdeveloping and paving New York City often through vital neighborhoods.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:22Josh Clark?

  But that was just that was standard Robert Moses stuff like, well, we've already started. If you don't like the idea, sorry, we've already started and spent money on it. What are we going to do now?

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, his I think his big slogan was, by the way.

• 10:35Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Did I mention?

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, did I mention?

• 10:38Josh Clark?

  So this was, I think, in February 1934, the announcement came out. The New York Times read Sheepfold in Park to Become Tavern. CWA Workers Converting Old Building Into A Picturesque Popular Restaurant. Prices to be moderate.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then they also said the remodeled building will be known in the future as Tavern on the Green. And, you know, within the average, within reach of the average purse was sort of the the working, not slogan, but just, you know, they wanted to make it affordable. It wouldn't turn, you know, it would end up being, I guess, for the time, a pretty expensive restaurant, I think, once it hit the 60s and 70s, but we'll get there. Now, it's, you know, it's a, it's a New York restaurant, so it's not cheap, but it's not like some super, super expensive place.

• 11:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I was surprised to see that. I read a 2014 restaurant review and it opened up again in its current incarnation and they were talking about like $30 main dishes. That is not bad.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  No, I mean, that's on par.

• 11:45Josh Clark?

  You're gonna find that in any city.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 11:47Josh Clark?

  I was, yeah, surprised to hear that. But I found an old menu from maybe the 50s. They were selling martinis for like 85 cents, not on sale. This was not a happy hour price. This was their regular menu. Yeah, yeah, I know. Can you imagine how much trouble we would get into?

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. It's just get the change purse out and live your life. So, one part of the announcement then said this, the park department will not undertake the management of the restaurant, but will let it, as in lease it, to an outside concessionaire by public bidding. And that, that started sort of a very unusual arrangement where in New York City, we'd be the landlord of Tavern on the Green and people would, you know, bid for the contracts and not only bid for the contracts, but pay a pretty hefty licensing fee to do so.

• 12:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's a big one, too. They would pay in incense, like myrrh and gold coin as tribute to the city.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Didn't believe that one.

• 12:52Josh Clark?

  Good. So they seem to, the city of New York also seems to have gotten some free labor out of the deal from the federal government because the Civil Works Administration, which was a federal agency during the depression that put out of work Americans to work and like revamping infrastructure, you know, all the stuff we do today. They actually converted the sheepfold to the Tavern on the Green. They paved the place where the sheep used to eat with flagstones. So it was converted to an outdoor dining area. You could also dance there. People wouldn't look at you weird if you did. And because it seems to

• 13:31Josh Clark?

  have been an outdoor dining venue only, in its first incarnation in the 30s, it was, Dave helped us with this, and he tried to do some digging, and I think he's right, that it was open only during the summer because it was too cold to eat outside in the winter in New York.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they called it Tavern on the Green because New York had a rich tradition of taverns in their past. In the 1700s, they had more taverns per capita than any city in the world. And something else called pleasure gardens were popular in the 18th century, where you could, you know, have a drink and do some dancing in a very pastoral park-like setting. And so Tavern on the Green was kind of a throwback to like, hey, you know, a throwback to the, to the days of the 18th century.

• 14:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And I read a little more on it, I think on Curbed, or I think it was Curbed, where they were talking about how those taverns were, those pleasure gardens often sprouted from taverns. So taverns played a really big role on creating green space, even as far back as the 18th century. Like, that's how much New York was starving for green space that you, you would have to like hang out at a tavern to do it. So I thought that was pretty cool as a nod to that tradition.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Well, their paved space was covered in horse crap. So I imagine green space was a nice respite.

• 14:55Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. And if you brought a horse to the tavern, people would get really mad.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Can you imagine?

• 15:01Josh Clark?

  You want to take a break?

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great setup. And then we'll pick back up in the 1930s right after this.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we gonna do all this?

• 15:23Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

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• 15:50Josh Clark?

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• 16:13Josh Clark?

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• 18:18Josh Clark?

  So the whole thing started in the 30s, when they converted the sheepfold into the Tavern on the Green. And it was eventually, like, it didn't last for very long as a tavern, or maybe this was during the winter, Chuck. It was taken over by the headquarters of the City Patrol Corps during the 40s. During World War II, a lot of the police officers around America went off to war. They still need police back in America, so they got volunteers, actually, from the people who were still in the country. And apparently, they made their headquarters at Tavern on the Green. And then in 1943, things really

• 19:02Josh Clark?

  started to swing. I think it was kind of a... An unusual, peculiar place up until this point. In 1943, it like really starts to become Tavern on the Green as we understand it today.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, because you know, New York grew from the south upward. And this was way up at 66, 67th Street. So yeah, it might have taken a while for that to become legitimized. But yeah, 43 is when it really kind of started the, I was about to say, nonstop operation as restaurant. But as we'll see, that would be interrupted later on as well. But it's at this point that it became year round open, dancing, dining, cocktailing, drinking three shots of gin for 85 cents, I guess.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  And it was doing pretty good, you know? It was one of the most popular restaurants in the 1950s. They expanded it from 10,000 square feet to more than double, to 21,000, including the very famous Elm Tree Room, which, you know, they built around one of the famous live elm trees. And including the indoor and outdoor space, they had, they could see more than, or up to 1,200 guests.

• 20:14Josh Clark?

  Wow, that's a lot of people.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  A lot of folks.

• 20:16Josh Clark?

  I looked all over for a picture of that Elm Tree Room with the elm tree. There's a real dearth of like vintage photos of Tavern on the Green. You'd think they'd be all over the internet, but they're not.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm sure you ran into what I did, which is tons of articles about that other elm right next to the outdoor dining that was recently cut down.

• 20:35Josh Clark?

  I didn't see that, no. They cut down an elm tree, huh?

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a 160 year old elm. And I think that it was like this summer that had some kind of blight and that, you know, unfortunately, they had to take it down. But that was not, I don't think, the elm from the Elm Tree Room.

• 20:51Josh Clark?

  Okay, okay, good.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Pretty sure.

• 20:54Josh Clark?

  So by 1950, the Tavern on the Green was enough on the map as far as like nightlife in the United States went. Like popular culture was well enough aware of Tavern on the Green that they were able to sell a live album. Called Dancing at the Tavern on the Green to Milt Saunders and his orchestra.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  And I love it.

• 21:16Josh Clark?

  And if you see the, did you see the cover of that thing?

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:19Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, it is, they might as well have just stamped the, the numbers 1950 on the cover and left it at that. It's pretty great, but that was like, they, they sold that record because people out who couldn't make a tavern on the green would want to buy that and impress their friends.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. Uh, this is where they first started wrapping the trees with those white lights, which is one of the sort of signature tavern on the green things.

• 21:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I saw they're up to 10 miles of lights now.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I will say this spoiler alert for my ultimate review. It is a very beautiful place to dine.

• 21:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I believe that.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Still, um, in 56, a very interesting, uh, thing happened in its history when Robert Moses found himself, uh, up against some Manhattan mommies. Uh, when he said, hey, I'm gonna, I need a bigger parking lot, so I'm gonna use this half acre over here. That, uh, yeah, sure, there are a lot of kids that like playing over there, but we need some parking. And the moms took it very seriously and they got their kids, informed a human barricade to block bulldozers. Got in a real fight with Moses. Uh, he built a fence to try and keep them out. The moms got an injunction. And uncharacteristically Moses backed down and abandoned that and set aside $50,000 for a new playground that's still there today.

• 22:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the West 67th Street Adventure Playground, which if you see like vintage photos of it from the 60s. They were like mounds made of stone that like I could just see a kid slipping on and cracking his head open with like, they looked really dangerous. But I think they've kind of converted them into something a little more safe today. But yeah, it's really neat that the tradition of playgrounds that generation after generation of kids have played on.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 23:04Josh Clark?

  So the first notable restaurateur that took over, I think the first restaurateurs that took over was in the 40s and they owned the Clermont Inn and it was a super stuffy, well-heeled dining place on the Hudson. They're the first notable ones, but the first actual restaurateur who people had already heard of, his name was Joe Baum. And this is in the 60s that he took over the lease of Tavern on the Green. And he was known as the Cecil B. DeMille of restaurateurs, which was really saying something in the 60s.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and for good reason. He ran not only Tavern on the Green, but the Windows of the World atop the World Trade Center eventually, the Rainbow Room, the world famous Rainbow Room, and the Four Seasons, which at the time, when this dude, when Joe Baum was running these, they were the four highest grocerying restaurants in Manhattan and they were all his.

• 23:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  It's remarkable.

• 23:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, that's a Cecil B. DeMille type.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:03Josh Clark?

  And if you don't know who that is, look him up.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah.

• 24:06Josh Clark?

  So he did a really good job of putting it on the map. And like we said, you know, by 1950, it was already, you know, part of popular culture. But I think this guy really turned it into something genuinely special for the first time. But I think most people who know about the history of Tavern on the Green would agree that it didn't really become like a gem of a restaurant, bejeweled even, until Warner LeRoy came along in, I think, 1974.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he came along at a good time because the, through the 60s and 70s, it was doing okay, but it started to feel a little bit dated. And then by the time the 70s rolled around, Central Park had become, I don't know, like how legitimately dangerous it was, but it became dangerous enough to where it was sort of part of the national punchline as far as like, yeah, go to Central Park if you want to get mugged.

• 25:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  That kind of thing. And so, you know, the restaurant fell on harder times and Joe Baum was calling it the Tavern in the Red. And in 1974, like you said, Warner Leroy took over. He's a former theater director and this guy had a, to say he had a flair is sort of understating things. He ran a bar for a while called Maxwell's Plum.

• 25:27Josh Clark?

  Oh, my God. Have you seen pictures of that?

• 25:29Speaker 02

  God, just gorgeous restaurant.

• 25:31Josh Clark?

  It's just heaven.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Maybe over the top, but I don't know about gaudy or not. I mean, I think it looks like an amazing place to have a martini, but it did get some like bad reviews for just how sort of kaleidoscopic and gaudy it was.

• 25:46Josh Clark?

  Did you see the picture of the actual bar bar?

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:50Josh Clark?

  Oh, my God, dude. It looked just amazing. But also the dining room, it was just cool, too. Like, they had low ceilings with Tiffany, lit Tiffany plated glass hanging down or covering them. It's just amazing.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I loved Maxwell's Plum. I would have loved it, too. It turns out also Cary Grant, Warren Beatty, Barbra Streisand, they all loved Maxwell Plum. All the best people.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:15Josh Clark?

  And one of the things that Warner Leroy was known for, that he made his name for at Maxwell's Plum, was having a really eclectic menu that was also not exclusionary. He wanted to make sure that basically anybody could come and like enjoy a meal at his place. And he also didn't have a dress code either. That was a big one, too. He wanted you to just feel comfortable. So he had on Maxwell Plum's menu, everything from Iranian caviar to hamburgers, I believe.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a place in Atlanta. What is the name of it? Haven't been there, but the theme of the restaurant is that it's got like five or six different distinct cuisines. And that's like what it's known for. And it's even in the name of the restaurant. I can't remember what it's called.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  Oh, Six Cuisines over on West Peachtree.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  That's a good one.

• 27:15Josh Clark?

  Thanks.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  You got me. I can't remember. Anyway, I'll look it up and let you know.

• 27:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, please do let me know.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  But you're right. So Maxwell's Plum was kind of a wacky place. He took over Tavern on the Green. And he brought that same kind of flashiness there. He had a quote where he said, "A restaurant is a fantasy, kind of living theater in which diners are the most important members of the cast. It's one of the few creations that appeal to all of the senses and one with which I can create my own world." So he spent 10 million bucks on a restaurant he doesn't own.

• 27:47Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Renovating this thing to, you know, in his own sort of flashy style.

• 27:53Josh Clark?

  So did you see that New Yorker review that I sent you?

• 27:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:57Josh Clark?

  Did you see them describing what they did on opening day in 1976?

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:03Josh Clark?

  So I say, "Take it, man."

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Well, I don't have it in front of me. Can you take it?

• 28:07Josh Clark?

  Sure. So they had the world's largest sundae, 7,250 pounds of Neapolitan ice cream. There was a nine-liter bottle of champagne that had been flown over from France. It had its own first-class seat on Air France. And then there was a 16-foot model of Central Park as a cake. This is what Warner Leroy did.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  I also saw that he was known for wearing taffeta suits or sequin suits. So yeah, he was flashy to the nines. He was also the son of the legendary producer of The Wizard of Oz, Mervyn Leroy, which explains Warner Leroy's daughter's name.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Oh, is it Dorothy?

• 28:47Josh Clark?

  That'd be great. No, her name is Jennifer Oz Leroy.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Oh, right. Okay.

• 28:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's called family tradition right there.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  I really thought it would be Dorothy.

• 28:58Josh Clark?

  It should have been Dorothy Red Shoes Leroy.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Or what's the witch in Wicked?

• 29:06Josh Clark?

  I don't know.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  We went and saw Wicked, what, Euphuba? Euphila? Euphuba?

• 29:11Josh Clark?

  I don't know.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  That's what Emily went as for Halloween. Anyway. The Green Witch from Wicked, that would have been a good name, too.

• 29:18Josh Clark?

  That's the wicked witch of the West, I think.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but she had a name. Chandeliers were brought in. He brought in 15 chefs from France.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  He brought the chandeliers in straight from India and then built the very famous, some may say infamous, Crystal Room, which was a very sort of over the top room full of crystals. It was made of glass. That was the building, if you've seen the very first Ghostbusters, when Rick Moranis runs up and bangs on the window before getting attacked. That is the Crystal Room. And that's the part that I couldn't figure out. Like, the room I ate in was all glass as well. And I think it was just a re, sort of a different version of what that was.

• 30:06Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Yes, they completely altered it, for sure. It wasn't like it was in the 80s, where it was in its heyday. It was also in other movies, Arthur.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  One of my favorites.

• 30:17Josh Clark?

  It was in Beaches, the scene where they win that dance contest against the gangsters that are chasing them.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, ton of movies.

• 30:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's really a well-known dining room. But yeah, it's not there anymore. And one of the reasons why is because, over the years, Warner Roy's taste started to kind of seem a little tacky. So, yeah. But I think now, if they had just preserved it, people, I think more people would flock to it, just because of the vintage thing, you know?

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Well, now they would, because, yeah, that kind of campy, kitschy thing is appreciated. But at the time, not everyone appreciated it. Semi-recently, I guess, when it reopened, they kind of looked back. And a guy named Pete Wells, a former restaurant critic for the New York Times, described that original Crystal Room as "a wedding cake palace, as imagined by a six-year-old princess with a high fever."

• 31:14Josh Clark?

  That is great. And if you want to read great turns of phrase, just read restaurant reviews. They are so cruel, but in the funniest ways. That whole, that whole review from 2014 is just hilarious, but also like you just feel bad at the same time for laughing at it.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 31:33Josh Clark?

  So, um, under Warner Leroy's steerage, like this is when Tavern on the Green became like the place where Patrick Bateman would want like a seat. And apparently the managers made pretty good money on the side, accepting bribes to seat people in the Crystal Room. It was like the place to be. Um, and, and not just the eighties, but also through the nineties too. So the whole place was riding high. As a matter of fact, I think in the nineties, it was the highest grossing independent restaurant in the United States, Tavern on the Green was.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, they had revenues annually of more than 40 million bucks, uh, seating more than 600,000 diners a year, uh, which is a staggering number of people. Um, he got a pretty good deal. Uh, it was one of these things where when he came in, uh, the Central Park was kind of dangerous. And like I said, the restaurant was on hard times. So he was really in the driver's seat as far as sort of saying like, hey, give me a pretty good deal, uh, Mayor Ed Koch. And he was pretty desperate, uh, the mayor was and the city was. So they, uh, let him build that crystal, uh, crystal room without, uh, you know, getting the necessary permit, which was apparently pretty expensive. And they said, you only

• 32:51Speaker 02

  have to pay 1.2 million for the license fee, which apparently is a lot cheaper than the arrangement he had with Baum.

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And also apparently the Crystal Room expansion was illegal under municipal codes and they did, they looked the other way without, with them not getting a, a building permit to build it. Like they really were sinking a lot of, um, faith into Tavern on the Green, bringing in a lot of revenue for the city, not just through the licensing fees, but you know, people traveling to New York in part to go dine at Tavern on the Green. That was like the, the way that it was viewed.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Should we take another break?

• 33:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  All right. We'll take another break and we'll come back and continue through the eighties and nineties right after this.

• 33:46Speaker 02

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• 34:22Josh Clark?

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• 35:15Josh Clark?

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• 36:37Speaker 02

  So another fact of Tavern on the Green at the time was that Leroy had a staff that was not unionized. So he paid pretty low wages for a long, long time. It took a walkout in 1989 over that low pay for the workers to finally get with the union, the New York Hotel and Motels Trade Council. But they were rolling in dough at the time, so they could afford those wages. And they were doing pretty well until 2001. First of all, Warner Leroy died very sadly in February of that year. Then 9/11 happened, which put a dent on New York City as a whole.

• 37:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  And that's when Jennifer Oz Leroy, Oz Dorothy, Green Witch Leroy, had taken over. But it just, it just wasn't happening. They just could not recapture that magic. The restaurant was never very well reviewed for the food. And it was starting to kind of matter, because people weren't going just for the experience. And food was just a much bigger deal. And there were plenty of great restaurants by then. So the restaurant just kind of fell off by the mid 2000s.

• 37:50Josh Clark?

  I saw in Town and Country Magazine, the go to source for facts about New York nightlife.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:57Josh Clark?

  They said that, that the New York Times reviewed over like 23 years or something like that. The New York Times reviewed Tavern on the Green five times, and it never got more than one out of four stars. That's mean. Like, that sounds like a vendetta almost, you know?

• 38:12Speaker 02

  I do think it was, had a bit of a bull's eye on it. I'm not saying like the food was ever like great and it was just really unfairly reviewed, but I, I do think it was definitely a restaurant that critics wanted to kind of poke a hole in.

• 38:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It's just mean.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 38:31Josh Clark?

  So, uh, I think in 2009, there was a lawsuit in 2008 against, uh, the management, for sexual and racial harassment of female, black and Hispanic employees. It's not a good look for your restaurant. And then the next year, the Parks Department said, we're kind of done with the Leroy family. I think you guys have run your course. And they decided not to renew their 20-year license with the family. And so they announced that they would be taking bids and probably assumed that this was going to be the revamping regeneration, a revitalization of Tavern on the Green. And it turns out that no one would go near it. They were like, I don't know, man, that place has a

• 39:13Josh Clark?

  pretty bad reputation and it's going to cost a lot to bring it back to its glory. And it sat unused for five years, I think.

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, from 2010 to 2014, it was

• 39:26Josh Clark?

  Five years.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Not a restaurant. And, uh, and like you said, it was just, um, it was a big risk because it was a big expensive undertaking. It had never had a great reputation. I think it was always the target of critics. Um, and so no one would, no one would go in. Uh, I think they, they tried a couple of times. There was a guy named Dean Poll who, uh, ran the Central Park Boathouse Restaurant. He tried to negotiate a good deal with the trade union, couldn't do it for six months. So he backed out. Other bidders were scared away. Um, and so while it was vacant, Mayor Bloomberg said, well, let's make it a, a gift shop. Uh, so it was an information center and, uh, center and tourist shop and, uh, you know, there are a lot of people that are like, ah, just this once, you

• 40:12Speaker 02

  know, sort of at least, um, great, uh,

• 40:16Speaker 02

  I don't know if a great restaurant, but great New York City landmark has now been turned into a tchotchke shop where some of the complaints. So finally, in 2012, the city said, all right, Philly, step in. We love you down there, New York City Light. What have you got for us? And Jim Caola and David Salama from Philly got the bid to reopen the tavern by investing $10 million to sort of get rid of Leroy's flashy thing and say, let's make, let's take it back to the old school 19th century tavern look.

• 40:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they really did. The actual like bar tavern area, they did a great job with. Apparently, they brought in architects who were good with discovering the actual historic part of any structure, and they did that. They stripped it down to its cathedral beams, the original ones in the ceiling. So I'll bet that looked pretty cool.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  It does.

• 41:13Josh Clark?

  The bar was like studded with like brass nailheads, is that correct?

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Yep, I saw brass nailheads.

• 41:21Josh Clark?

  It's just like in the original stone fireplace, the original copper gutters, like they were all like just like, they were just brought to the fore. And so the tavern vibe of the tavern itself, from what I read, they just nailed it. It was the Crystal Room revamped that I saw the most criticized.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 41:43Josh Clark?

  I don't remember who said it. It might have been Pete Wells, who said that it resembles an all-day casual dining option at a family-friendly resort in Florida.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Uh, disagree.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, you're disagreeing with Pete Wells, not me. I'm just reading a quote here that I found pithy.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  No, I know. It is, it's, that is pithy, because, because that room, it is, it is a glass room with, that, that looks out onto the courtyard with those lights. It's a, it's a wonderful room to dine in.

• 42:13Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. Maybe it was because the serving staff has to wear Bermuda shorts and golf shirts tucked in.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, the flamingo kid. That bar area is gorgeous, though. The two guys from Philly, Kayola and Salama, were, some say cronies, the city sweetened the deal a bit. They, Bloomberg put a lot of pressure on the trade unions to give them a two-year break from having to sign a labor contract and to defer that licensing fee for five years, which is a lot of money. And it turns out that Kayola's sister was married to, and I think still is, to a guy named Kevin Sheekey, who was Bloomberg's former deputy mayor and an executive at Bloomberg Software Company, but he was like, that's, that's all just coincidence.

• 43:03Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. I mean, that's, a couple of coincidences layered on top of each other.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's New York for you.

• 43:10Josh Clark?

  So, one of the big, one of the big parts about the reopening in 2014, which New York was excited about, I mean, this was an icon that had been shut down and no one was sure when or if it was going to come back.

• 43:23Josh Clark?

  One of the things they did was they went through and took all of those amazing decorations that Warner Leroy had installed, and they auctioned them off. Like, you could get silverware, dinnerware.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Oh, cool.

• 43:37Josh Clark?

  You could get some of the original copper weatherveins they auctioned off for some reason. Those chandeliers from the Indian Maharaja, you could buy those, too. It sounded like it was a heck of an auction, and they actually held it in the Crystal Room.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 43:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I would have liked to have known about that.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'd buy a fork.

• 43:57Josh Clark?

  For sure, for sure. So, they opened in 2014, and immediately, every single outlet in New York panned the food.

• 44:09Josh Clark?

  Like, just panned it.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, here they go again, some, some quotes, comatose potato salad.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Roasted quail that's as dry as a week old English muffin. They're all just so pithy.

• 44:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah. New York Magazine said that the salad is the kind that you would get at a third rate country club, which Tavern on the Green pretty much is.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 44:32Josh Clark?

  I know.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  That's pretty bad.

• 44:33Josh Clark?

  Not even just a country club, a third rate country club. I mean, they're just being mean. I haven't seen any recent reviews. I know that the executive chef who was running the place when it opened, Katie Sparks, she left after, I think, like six months or something like that. And from the restaurant reviews I read, they were saying like, it's kind of understandable. Like, they're, they're creating these really extravagant dishes, at least on paper, for seatings of like 700 people. And it's really hard to get well-made hot food out to tables when you're serving 700 people at a seating. So they were at least a little bit understanding. But I haven't read a recent review of Tavern on the Green and its food.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:19Josh Clark?

  So we're gonna have to rely on you, I guess, is what I'm saying.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Well, here's my review. It was fine. It wasn't like the food was, it wasn't like the food was bad. It was like, oh, this is gross. But it's, you know, it's just, I mean, I'm looking at the menu here. We can read through some of these things. Appetizers, there's a crab cake, there's a calamari salad, there's a country salad, honey roasted figs. That sounds pretty good.

• 45:43Josh Clark?

  Sure. Steak of Dorset sheep?

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Barata with hearth roasted grape tomatoes. It's all pretty standard stuff. And then if you move on to the mains, you've got some diver sea scallops, Scottish salmon for 38 bucks, grilled whole fish for 46 bucks, rack of lamb, you know, fairly pedestrian. I think I, if I'm not mistaken, I had the lemon thyme chicken under a brick.

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  Did you get to keep the brick?

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Didn't get to keep the brick. It was a real tavern on the green brick from the old Sheep's Hold. Or Sheep's Hold. That came with blistered green beans, mashed potatoes, and a jus for 35 bucks. And it was like, it was pretty good chicken.

• 46:31Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  But, you know, triple fries, shrimp cocktail. It's... The menu is not, not, uh, third-rate country club.

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  But I didn't go in there expecting, like, New York's finest meal. I went there for the experience. Uh, we were in Central Park and that, you know, you can walk right over there. I'd always wanted to go. It was a bucket list thing. Um, and now I can say I've been. And I, I would very much recommend to have that experience if it's something that, like, piques your interest. If it's like, "I've always wanted to try Tavern on the Green," like, go try it for sure.

• 47:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think that's how New York Magazine concluded their review. They're like, "It's a once-in-a-lifetime thing."

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, go, go, go once.

• 47:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's pretty much what they said. And they even said "if that," so...

• 47:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:16Josh Clark?

  Hopefully, it's gotten a little better. It sounds like it's gotten better. Was the food warm?

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Uh, the food was warm. The service was good.

• 47:24Josh Clark?

  Okay, those are two things that definitely got called out in those 2014 reviews.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, my martini was good.

• 47:30Josh Clark?

  Nice. Uh... Was it 85 cents?

• 47:32Speaker 02

  It's definitely touristy. Like, I didn't expect the ghost of John Lennon and Warren Beatty to come wandering in. Uh, so it feels a little touristy, but it was, uh, it was good. It was fine. I recommend, if you've never been to New York and you think, and you're into the touristy thing, go for sure. If you go to New York a ton and you've never been, like, give it a shot for your, for one of your meals. Uh, you can always go eat somewhere better the next night.

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  Okay. Okay.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  But it's cool. It's worth going to. It's kind of like a Russian tea room. I've never been there, but I want to try it. Just, haven't you been there?

• 48:05Josh Clark?

  No, I've never been. I think that was also a Warner Leroy joint.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Okay, I thought you had been there for some reason, but like, I want to try that out just to sort of say that I've been there and know what that experience is like.

• 48:15Josh Clark?

  Same here. I've got some dining to do.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:18Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, you got anything else about Tavern on the Green?

• 48:21Speaker 02

  I do not.

• 48:22Josh Clark?

  Well, thanks for sharing, Chuck. That was very nice.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 48:25Josh Clark?

  Uh, and since Chuck said sure, as everyone knows, that just unlocked listener mail.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  You know, in lieu of listener mail, we're going to do another shout out to our friends at CoEd because they have a very special thing going. You've heard us talk about CoEd before. They're our friends that run the nonprofit down in Guatemala to help break the cycle of poverty through education. And they do really, really great stuff. And they're doing a special Stuff You Should Know sort of co-branded?

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Co-hosted?

• 48:59Josh Clark?

  Stuff You Should Know x CoEd.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So let's talk about our call to action, huh?

• 49:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So they have a program going called The Cooperative, which you can join. You donate $20 a month and they pool it all together to sponsor students in their RISE Youth Development Program. And what they're shooting for in 2025 is sponsoring 1,100 students plus. And what these kids will do, will start school in rural Guatemala, and this will be their biggest class ever. So they're really hoping that Stuff You Should Know listeners will come through and add to the already donated $1.3 million in contributions to CoEd just from Stuff You Should Know listeners alone.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Amazing. Yeah. And here's the incentive, too. If you set up your gift by Giving Tuesday, which is December 3rd, you can get a chance to have a virtual hangout with us on Zoom. We do that every year. It's a lot of fun. We hang out with a handful of folks on Zoom. And, you know, we can attest to CoEd. They're a great organization. We know them personally. We went to Guatemala and saw the work firsthand in there. They are walking the walk down there.

• 50:06Josh Clark?

  For sure. Yeah. And if you want to know more about the whole program, we did a two-parter on CoEd where we went to Guatemala and you can hear Jerry give a heartfelt speech in it.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  That's right. The real Jerry.

• 50:19Josh Clark?

  So yeah, go forth and go to cooperativeforeducation.org/sysk and donate $20 a month. And we appreciate it. CoEd appreciates it. And the kids in Guatemala appreciate it, too.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Great.

• 50:35Josh Clark?

  And if you want to send us an email, you can send it off to [email protected].

• 50:44Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 51:00Josh Clark?

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