The Story of Starvation Heights

There are quacks and then there is Linda Hazzard. Not only did she starve her patients to death, but she took their family fortunes as she did it. This is the story of Starvation Heights. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:41Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:51Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and Chuck's here too, and Jerry's here too, and I'm here too. That's me, Josh, and this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  The We're All Three Feeling Weird Edition.

• 2:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, isn't that strange? So yeah, I said that I was just feeling kind of off today. And you said, me too. And Jerry said, me three.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. What does that mean?

• 2:15Josh Clark?

  I don't know. But I mean, that is very, that's remarkable to me that all three of us, I mean, we all have three different personalities.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23Josh Clark?

  We don't like, you know, we don't live together, despite what most people think.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, not anymore.

• 2:29Josh Clark?

  No. So I don't know what it is. Maybe some things in retrograde and some things house or something like that. I don't know.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  That whole thing.

• 2:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Stuff you should know is in retrograde, whatever that means.

• 2:42Josh Clark?

  So yeah, we'll, we'll do our best with this. I'll, I'll do my best not to break out in tears.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  No, I think we'll be okay. And a big thanks to Julia for helping us put together this episode on one of the quacks of all quacks. I feel like we have covered quite a few quacks over the years.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, this one wasn't as bad as that one guy that we did though, but she's up there for sure. I mean, I think she still has her supporters. Like you can still buy her books online.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  But most people who are familiar with her case are like, she was a serial killer.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  She just had a strange, a strange method of, of murder.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, of bleeding people of their money.

• 3:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:25Josh Clark?

  For sure. And their life force.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27Josh Clark?

  As Toby Hooper might put it.

• 3:29Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 3:30Josh Clark?

  So, um, yeah, we're talking about a woman named Linda Burfield Perry Hazard. There's at least two hyphens in there.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:38Josh Clark?

  And, um, she was born in the 19th century, but was doing most of her work in the late 19th, early 20th century. And she was, um, a person who was vehemently opposed, like from what I could tell, like very seriously, like this was her personal philosophy against, um, what would be called modern medicine today. But at the time was, you know, just starting out, as we'll see.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, she was a self-described fasting specialist.

• 4:09Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Uh, she had no medical degree. Um, she did have wealthy, uh, patients and I was about to say patrons, but I guess they were patients.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  And she said she was the only fasting specialist in the world. You know, this was the sort of the time of the, um, the sanitarium, sanatorium world where you could go off and practice some very questionable methods of, of healing people.

• 4:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like the Kellogg Brothers in Battle Creek.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, that we had not in the United States yet set up sort of rules around the, the medical world at this point.

• 4:46Josh Clark?

  No, but it's coming. It's like right around that time and in part because of so much quackery that was going on. The same time, a lot of this stuff is what you would call alternative medicine today, or just sensible stuff. Like, the Kellogg Brothers had a bunch of weird stuff and their whole jam was fairly weird. But if you boiled everything down to what they were saying, a lot of it was like diet and exercise, which is just great advice today, as far as health is concerned. The problem is, is like, some people took this to, to terrible extremes. Other people were peddling just like outright fake and dangerous medicines. Like, there were, there were, the outliers were so bad that they

• 5:30Josh Clark?

  were ruining it for everybody who actually had some legitimate stuff that they were doing. And Lynda Hazard was an outlier. Although, again, I think she was a true believer in herself and her, her cure.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, but you know, to be clear, she was not serving up bowls of granola. Uh, she was killing people, like I think 15 patients starved to death under her watch.

• 5:54Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  And, uh, she would eventually go to, go to trial for, for the murder of one.

• 5:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was a sensation in 1912.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  A real sensation.

• 6:04Josh Clark?

  Let's talk about Lynda Burfield Perry Hazard, um, who we're just going to call Lynda Hazard from here on out. But she was born Lynda Burfield in Minnesota in 1867, as most people in 1867 were born.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  What, rurally?

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  Rurally and, and a lot of them in Minnesota. I think something like 98% of births in 1867 took place in Minnesota.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 6:31Josh Clark?

  She actually had an experience, she said. She wrote, again, a bunch of books, 11 by my count.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 6:38Josh Clark?

  And so she said, according to herself, that she had been, she had run into modern medicine as a child, and this doctor had given her some pills, blue mass pills, that are essentially mercury pills. And they were like fairly regularly used at the time, but they did not sit very well with her.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  No, it made her really sick. Like this, again, this is the day when they would, you know, a doctor would say like, here, take this thing because it'll cure basically anything you have. And that's always the red flag, even if it's not pure snake oil, the sort of cure-all thing. And it made her really sick, very memorably so, like digestively, for the most part. But after that, she was like, I'm done with doctors, and I'm gonna eventually be my, my own doctor, and be a doctor to other people. She married a guy named Edwin Perry in 1886, had a couple of kids, got divorced. And apparently, I don't know if that led to her divorce, when she just sort of went center of left, as

• 7:43Speaker 02

  far as her care goes. Do you think that was it?

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  It's possible. That was the impression I have too, but I'm not sure. There's so much just random stuff that people say about her that may or may not be true. There's a lot of surmising.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  I think it said center of left, too, by the way.

• 7:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah. The thing is, Chuck, is everyone knew what you meant. So that counts as communication, you know? Don't be such a prescriptionist.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  That's right, left of center. But she married Perry, got divorced, and then fell into the care of Dr. Edward Dewey, who was a faster. He preached fasting. He basically said that, you know, every disease that we have comes from habitual eating in excess, basically. Like, you're out eating what your stomach and your gastric juices can handle.

• 8:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was, that's the sum total of Linda Hazard's whole thing. I mean, she had a three-pronged approach, which was intense fasting, enema, enema, enema. I've read that that her enemas lasted for hours sometimes.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  I think that was also the title of your second LP, right?

• 8:47Josh Clark?

  It was. It was my cover songs of William Shatner's.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Right? That's right.

• 8:54Josh Clark?

  Um, yeah, that's actually an appropriate title for that. Or lobotomy, lobotomy, lobotomy.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:01Josh Clark?

  Um, and then the other one was powerful massage that I think calling it massage is fairly generous. She would pound on her patients and apparently shout, eliminate, eliminate, because again, she's trying to get undigested food and poop that's left over out of the body. And by fasting, you're not introducing more food. You're letting the body rest while getting rid of the food that's been undigested. That's the source of all of your diseases.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, uh, you drank the colon cleanse before your first colonoscopy kind of empty.

• 9:37Josh Clark?

  Yes. Yeah. Oh, she would have loved that stuff.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably so. Um, she did take a few nursing classes. Um, you know, we have to mention that. I'm not trying to legitimize her or anything, but she did take a few osteopathic nursing classes. Uh, she opened a fasting therapy practice in Minneapolis there.

• 9:58Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Uh, this is when she went by Dr. Linda Burfield Perry, even though she was divorced from, uh, Edwin Perry. And yeah, she said, like, come on in, I'll beat on you. I will, I will not let you eat anything, like, really not at all. As we'll see, let's hold on to that little factoid, like how little these people are eating.

• 10:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Uh, but she would find love again in 1903, or find something in, uh, the way of a swindler named Samuel Hazard, who was a, he would go to jail for bigamy because he was already married and I guess did not get divorced and also married Linda, uh, Burfield. And so he went to jail for a couple of years.

• 10:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  And then got out of jail and they're like, all right, we're, we're good to go. Let's go to Seattle.

• 10:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And that's where her practice really started. Uh, the two of them together, like really kind of established this, this, uh, Well, they called it Wilderness Heights and it was supposed to be like a sanitarium or retreat where you went and got this fasting cure. And it's like you said, you have to be wary of cures that cure everything.

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:01Josh Clark?

  And that was very much the case with hers. She apparently was saying like, once you go through the fasting cure and you get all this crowd out, you're set. Like everything from, you can go have a kid and have no pain during childbirth. You're not going to get toothaches anymore. If you're an alcoholic, you won't be an alcoholic anymore. If you're depressed, no more depression. Like it's, it's a cure all from, from her stance. That's how she basically advertised it, I guess.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so she's the main player here. Samuel, her husband, is a little bit in the background, but he'll, he'll pop up here and there when it comes to the financials. And then our other couple of players are Claire and Dora Williamson. They were English, they were daughters of an English military person. Evelyn Dorothy, her name was Dora, she went by Dora Williamson. She was born in India in 1873. And then her sister, Enid, Lily and Claire Williamson was born in London in 1877. And they were basically from teenagers on, had no parents. I think their father died after Claire was born and then their mom died about 16 years later.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  So they were, you know, they were orphaned teens who were really, really rich and really, really tight, very close with one another.

• 12:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  And seemed to be like adventurous, not in a hurry to get married, which is what you would think for the time period, to get married right away. They, they kind of like to travel the world and go on adventures and not follow the prescribed method.

• 12:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they were independent women of the 90s, the 1890s.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 12:40Josh Clark?

  So they also, though, they weren't entirely orphaned. I mean, as far as like biological parents maybe are concerned, but they had a governess who took care of them as well. And I think kind of was, was part of their life long before their, their mother died. But I have the impression that she was like a, like a, an additional mom or an additional grandmother or something to them. Right? So

• 13:04Speaker 02

  I think that's how the Ritchies do it.

• 13:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. So just keep, keep that in mind that these women are slightly outside of the norm. They have no problem with being slightly outside of the norm and they are very interesting and interested people. They're very curious. And one of the things that they are focused on is natural health. Like they, they're just super into that kind of thing. And by the time they cross paths with Linda Hazard, they've done all, like all sorts of stuff, like any kind of cure you can think of. They've traveled to some sanitarium or sanatorium. They've traveled to some health clinic and they've just done this whole thing. It's like basically what they were interested in.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And, you know, they did some kind of brave things at the time for the time period. They, they were like, I don't want to wear corsets anymore. They're super uncomfortable and I don't, I think they're probably bad for us.

• 13:59Josh Clark?

  True.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  So they didn't wear corsets anymore. They gave up meat. Eating meat was, or being vegetarian, I guess, at the very least was a pretty weird thing back then.

• 14:08Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  So they were definitely following their own path. And then in 1910, they were in their 30s at this point. They were in the beautiful Empress Hotel in Victoria, British Columbia.

• 14:21Josh Clark?

  You sounded like you're an announcer for the Press is Right.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  It looks really nice. I mean, it's still around from what I can tell. At least the pictures look modern.

• 14:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's a fair amount now.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Oh, of course it is. And I didn't mean that snarkily, like, there are some very nice spare months.

• 14:35Josh Clark?

  Sure. I'm glad you said that because they're a huge sponsor of Stuff You Should Know.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  They're not, are they?

• 14:42Josh Clark?

  I don't think so.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  It's like, why am I not getting any free juice then?

• 14:44Josh Clark?

  You're right.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  So at the time, it was like the nicest hotel in North America. And they saw an ad in the local paper from Dr. Hazard, and I guess we can call her a doctor, but mentally using scare quotes. And they wrote her a letter and said, hey, we're two sisters. We'd like to visit Wilderness Heights and we're coming to Seattle.

• 15:08Josh Clark?

  Nice. I think that's a great place to leave off for an ad break.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Coming to Seattle? What could be better?

• 15:15Josh Clark?

  Not much, man.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be right back.

• 15:29Josh Clark?

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• 18:56Josh Clark?

  So before we get back to Claire and Dora and Linda Hazard, we should probably make like a little side note here that like although Linda Hazard's stuff was bizarre, like this, the extremes she took it to, like alternative medicine was still very much a thing. We did that whole episode on the Flexner Report, which basically said, from now on, in the United States and Europe, it's just like medical science. That's it. Anything outside of that is cuckoo quackery and should be persecuted and run out of town on a rail, essentially. And that, that, so this was the time when

• 19:37Josh Clark?

  you could still be an alternative medicine practitioner. You could still be an out and out quack.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:44Josh Clark?

  And there was no blog against that yet. And this was definitely the, like the gray area that Linda Hazard fell in.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think her case, and especially the case with these two sisters in particular, like, it wasn't the leading reason, but it was definitely evidence as they move forward with stuff like the Flexner Report of like, change is, is needed. Their fasting had been around for a long, long time. Obviously, people fasted in the Bible, people fasted in ancient Greece. I think Hippocrates and Pythagoras both were into fasting. So that was not a, a new thing. Fasting is still a thing and detoxes and cleanses and, you know, we've done our fair share of podcasting on that kind of stuff. So none of this is new or old.

• 20:34Josh Clark?

  No, we did one on corsets too. I just remembered.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 20:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. One of the other things that is definitely old about this is that whole idea of undigested food being the source of all disease. That's Ayurvedic in nature too. Ancient Asian Indian medical practice basically says, if you have undigested food or build up a poop or whatever in your system, all disease emanates from that. So even Dr. Edward Dewey was not exactly like groundbreaking with that idea.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and people are like, it all comes from the poop. And they're like, have you smelled this stuff?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  There's no way that's good.

• 21:16Josh Clark?

  It's g- gross.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  What if poop, not, you know, I guess we're going there, I'm going there.

• 21:22Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  What if poop didn't smell like that at all? And I'm not saying, oh, what if it smelled like, you know, something great? Like, what if it just literally had no odor? And that was it? Like, would the world be a really a better place?

• 21:36Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  I say yes.

• 21:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I, I guess, sure. I guess I don't smell enough poop in any given day that it really ruins the world for me.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, you have your outhouse.

• 21:49Josh Clark?

  Sure, but I steer clear of it. Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Uh, I was just curious, like, on the, like, the divorce rate, like, what all would change? Air, airports, airport happiness?

• 21:59Josh Clark?

  Okay, yes, airports. That's a really good point right there.

• 22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the worst.

• 22:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it really is really bad. Like, that's a good reason not to fly before, like, 10 a.m.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Like, it's one thing to be married to somebody, but you don't want to smell the poop of 12 strangers.

• 22:14Josh Clark?

  No, no, you don't. That's why no one should poop in public bathrooms. They shouldn't even have toilets in there, all urinals all the time.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, they should have urinals, urinals and signs that say, hold it.

• 22:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Just hold it.

• 22:29Josh Clark?

  Have a poop, go to jail.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Uh, all right, so, sorry to get, uh, to go off on a tangent there about poop. I'll just kind of, I've never done that particular thought experiment.

• 22:40Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, I liked it.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Uh, all right, so, um, she had her, her big, big book, I mean, she had 11 of them, but I feel like the one as far as this goes, this most relevant is the one from 1908. It's called Fasting for the Cure of Disease. And that's where she laid out, you know, the program, which is just those three things, really. You know, fast to get, get beat, beaten on, and get those, as Josh says, enema, enema, enema. And the first person to die from this treatment, uh, she wrote the book after, six years after this, which is pretty disturbing. But in 1902, at her Minneapolis practice, there was a woman who was partially paralyzed.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Uh, and very sadly, she died on day 37 of a 40-day fast. And Linda Hazard, as the doctor, said, cause of death, paralysis.

• 23:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. That would be a recurring theme, as we'll see.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:33Josh Clark?

  Because she also, um, she was declaring the cause of death for her patients as a physician, even though she wasn't really a physician. Um, and I, I guess still, even at this time, under circumstances like this, the local coroner, um, would still take a look at any dead body.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:52Josh Clark?

  Saw the body of this woman, Gertrude Young, and was like, I don't know that this was paralysis that did this because she's pretty emaciated. Let's, um, perform an autopsy and see what happens. Looked inside of poor Gertrude Young and said, yep, she died of starvation, just as I suspected.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  That's right. Uh, and as we'll see later, um, Linda Hazard didn't think that was a viable way of dying. She's basically like, you can't starve someone to death. It's not possible.

• 24:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  So she's wrong about that. Um, but she did not have a medical license. Uh, so she could not be like brought up on charges or anything. Uh, she was telling this woman to fast and the woman was fasting. She didn't have her, you know, locked up and chained to a bed or anything like that. Um, she was just following the advice of the wrong person.

• 24:41Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Um, and yeah, Linda Hazard could just like shrug and be like, you know, what are you gonna do?

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:48Josh Clark?

  This was, um, like years after, uh, when she and her husband Samuel moved to Seattle and started their practice together. Um, so that's not why she moved. This was just the first body in her long body count, essentially.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, bodies, um, you know, people started dying at her practice in Washington as well. And there in Washington at the time, you could be grandfathered in as far as what kind of alternative medicine you were practicing. So she was kind of all good there. Um, in 1907 is when she started treating patients in Washington. And, you know, right away, again, this wasn't like the weirdest stuff at the time. So she had some, some of the elite of Washington, uh, like state legislators, uh, coming there. Um, it was, it wasn't like, oh, that, that weird lady in the woods that's killing people. It was, you know, it was sort of of the fashion of the day in some ways.

• 25:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Also, there was a real deference to her from the local population, which were typically Swedish immigrants, who were not necessarily formally educated. They didn't have a lot of money. So this was like, she made a lot of money, we should say, multiple times throughout her career. So she was wealthy. She had a lot of land. She was a doctor. So she said she was much more highly educated than anyone else in the area that they knew. So she was popular and people just kind of respected her in this area too. So in addition to these wealthy and kind of elite,

• 26:27Josh Clark?

  you know, alternative medicine file patrons and customers, just the local people who had nothing to do with this still thought fairly highly of her too.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Even though people were dying, I think by the time the Williamson's sisters arrived in 1911, seven patients had died under her care, six from starvation, or what looked to be starvation. And what was also learned was, like you said, she performed all the autopsies herself. And it was also revealed that the estates of these people were left to the sanatorium. So she was also taking their money, even though it was, you know, from the outside, under the guise of like, they believed in her so much, they wanted her practice to continue.

• 27:14Josh Clark?

  Yes, exactly. And this is where it really becomes murdery, you know?

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, like the super nefarious.

• 27:22Josh Clark?

  Something else that was gross that I found was, so Wilderness Heights was like a few, like a handful of primitive cabins. And then her cottage, and her cottage still stood until like 2014, 2015.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 27:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And you could go into her cottage and it was still, there were still furnishings in it, and including her bathtub. And the bathtub of her cottage is where she was performing her autopsies.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Ugh, jeez.

• 27:49Josh Clark?

  So that to me kind of like really gets across like, this is not like a super polished outfit. You know what I mean?

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 27:56Josh Clark?

  And I think that's important to keep in mind too. She basically built some rough-hewn cabins in the woods in Washington and called this like her sanitarium.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this is, by the way, in Alala Woods. Washington.

• 28:11Josh Clark?

  Yes. So close to Walla Walla.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  So close. So Claire and Dora get there in February of 1911 and she was like, hey, we're not going to stay here in Wilderness Heights. I'm not sure why she did this. I have a feeling that she knew that she had some big fish on the line.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what I meant too.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  So she took them to Seattle instead and she, she basically lied to him and said that the Alala Woods Retreat wasn't completed yet, even though I think it clearly was.

• 28:40Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  And so they put, they put them up in some apartments in downtown Seattle, started their fasting treatment and the vigorous massage and they were eating two cups of vegetable broth. Sounds like basically canned tomato juice a day.

• 28:57Josh Clark?

  I also saw, I think Dora later said that they were made from asparagus tips, spinach and lettuce, a broth made from that.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, veggie broth.

• 29:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So not anything that you could possibly even remotely get full off of. Yeah. Like you said, I think a cup twice a day.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:15Josh Clark?

  That's just, yeah. So you're going to lose weight very quickly. And this was like 40 plus days of fasting that Hazard was prescribing to her patients, right? And so I think the, both of the Williamson sisters made it to 50 days before they were transferred to Wilderness Heights. They didn't walk. They were on stretchers. That's how they got to Wilderness Heights from their apartments in downtown Seattle.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I mean, from what I can tell, they weren't screaming on the way, like, get me help. Like, it feels like they were either all in still on this or just so out of it at this point, they didn't know any better, you know?

• 29:59Josh Clark?

  Yes. Or they were asking for help, but they were asking for it like Stevie from Malcolm in the Middle, where they were like, get.

• 30:10Josh Clark?

  Help.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  This is pretty good, Stevie.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  Thanks.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Did you watch the reboot of that?

• 30:16Josh Clark?

  No. Reboot? I can't. Give me one reboot that was as good as the original or even close.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can't bring any reboots to mind at all, so I don't know, but you're you're pretty much right. Like even The Great Kids in the Hall, like, it was just okay.

• 30:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Uh, I kind of want to watch the Malcolm in the Middle one, though.

• 30:37Josh Clark?

  Oh, you haven't seen it either?

• 30:39Speaker 02

  No, but I heard it was pretty good, actually.

• 30:41Josh Clark?

  All right. Does Frankie Muniz, has his voice changed?

• 30:46Speaker 02

  No, it's exactly the same. And so is, uh, what's his face? What was his name? Stevie?

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  Stevie, yeah.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I couldn't remember. I just remember Cranston was so great.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and his daughter's great, too. We've said it before, we'll say it again. On The Pit, Dr. Mel is Bryan Cranston's daughter, and she does a great job.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we said that live on stage. I don't think the listening public knows that you are now on The Pit.

• 31:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but apparently it just stopped. Like, they just stopped putting out episodes, but that last episode does not end in any way that anyone would ever end a season of TV.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Oh, you think?

• 31:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like, Noah Wiley didn't leave yet. I don't even think his buddy fully agreed to getting the treatment he's supposed to get. What's going on with, um, Al Hashimi? Like, the last thing we saw, she just kind of had a meltdown in her car. There's just, all this stuff's up in the air.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Oh, I think that was the purpose. I think it just was cliffhanger after cliffhanger.

• 31:48Josh Clark?

  Okay, yes, I can get cliffhangers, but it's almost like it just petered out rather than cut it. Like, they just cut.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Hmm, all right, disagree.

• 31:57Josh Clark?

  All right. Well, I was surprised that that was how they ended it.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  We just spoiled some stuff, by the way.

• 32:04Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. We should probably...

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Well, we didn't say anything huge.

• 32:08Josh Clark?

  No.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Noah Wiley didn't leave, big deal.

• 32:10Josh Clark?

  Okay, all right.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Does he ever leave?

• 32:12Josh Clark?

  I don't know. That's what I was expecting.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  No, I just mean Noah Wiley, like, he never leaves. He comes over, he overstays his welcome. Everyone's like, when's this guy gonna get on the motorcycle and drive out of here?

• 32:22Josh Clark?

  That's true.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Uh, all right, I feel like we're really off the rails now. We should take a break and come back, yes?

• 32:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be right back.

• 32:41Josh Clark?

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• 32:51Speaker 02

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• 33:04Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 33:19Speaker 02

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• 33:44Josh Clark?

  You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next, unless something starts to feel off. Because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction, signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system, the constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance and why they seem to be on the rise to how digestion changes as we age and what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.

• 34:28Josh Clark?

  Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:47Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 34:50Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fans' experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 35:16Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 35:22Speaker 04

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data is flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  What the fans' experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 35:43Speaker 05

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  All right, where we left you, Noah Wiley had not left yet the pit. No, I'm sorry. We left the sisters in pretty bad condition. It was about 50 days into their treatment. They were obviously in really, really bad shape, having traveled by stretcher to Alala Woods. And Claire died 17 days after they got to the compound there in the forest. And this is like very triggering and super upsetting. So I'm issuing a warning here, but she weighed less than 50 pounds when she passed. And Hazard's own autopsy, once again, determined she died of a liver disease that came from a childhood medical treatment that caused her organs to shrink. And when the governess showed up,

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Margaret Conway finally arrived. She told her that and she was like, I basically raised these kids and she didn't have any childhood medical treatment that caused her organs to shrink.

• 36:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, um, we should just say that Margaret Conway, her governess, who we talked about earlier, she got a cable from one of them. I can't remember if it was Dora or Claire, probably Dora.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  I think it was Dora, yeah.

• 37:10Josh Clark?

  It just basically saying like, please come, here's the ship you want to take, here's where we are, just get here. And Margaret Conway just dropped everything and within a month, she had traveled from Australia to Seattle. That's how long it took.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean, she was welcomed. I mean, Samuel met her in Seattle and said, all right, let's get on the train. We're going to show you this operation. Uh, like it's pretty sad what's happening, but like we have a top notch, uh, practice here. And they brought her, uh, to the mortuary to see Claire. And she was like, that's not Claire, whoever this body is. And I get the impression that it wasn't like, she's so emaciated, I didn't recognize her. Like, I think they tried to pull a fast one on her.

• 37:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there was, um, rumors, I guess, that the local mortuary was in cahoots with the hazards and that they would switch out bodies that weren't emaciated, who died, who had nothing to do with Wilderness Heights.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:06Josh Clark?

  The emaciated bodies of their victims, so that family wouldn't be like, uh, I think you starved my mom to death.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:15Josh Clark?

  So, um, Margaret Conway was not in any way, shape or form put off by Samuel Hazard's charm or Linda Hazard's authority. Um, like she realized like that they had killed Claire. One of the dead giveaways was that, um, Linda Hazard was wearing one of Claire's robes and her favorite hat when she received, um, Margaret Conway at the, at the Wilderness Heights at their cottage. And that, I think, immediately rubbed Margaret Conway the wrong way. And, um, she was like, I, I, give me Dora, I'm taking Dora home. And Linda and Samuel said, uh, not so fast.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, while Dora was in the same shape, uh, she weighed about 50 pounds, was barely alive at this point. And so, uh, yeah, she asked for, and, and the hazards were like, actually, we're the executor of her estate. She is under our legal guardianship forever. And my husband Samuel has power of attorney over all of her and the family's financial matters. Uh, and not only that, is you, you, you've got a medical bill you need to pay. You owe us two grand.

• 39:22Josh Clark?

  It was about 70K today.

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:25Josh Clark?

  Margaret Conway is like, well, I don't have 70 grand. I have no idea how to overturn a legal guardianship, but it just so happened that Claire and Dora's uncle, John Herbert, was just up in Portland, not very far away, even back in 1911, 1910.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  Down in Portland.

• 39:45Josh Clark?

  Down in, oh, yeah, you're sorry.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  It's gotta be, right?

• 39:49Josh Clark?

  No, 100% it is.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 39:51Josh Clark?

  I have, I have which show we did backwards. Usually we do Seattle first and then Portland, right?

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:57Josh Clark?

  Okay. So anyway, John Herbert was down in Portland and Margaret Conway got in touch with him and was like, I need your help. Like these, Claire's been killed and Dora was in big trouble. She's about to die. And these two hucksters have like all sorts of legal mumbo jumbo going on. And John Herbert got involved. He's like, I'm a man and this is the Edwardian era. So everybody listen to me. And that's when things started moving.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Samuel Hazard did produce a document. It was a typewritten statement that he said Claire, you know, dictated this to us on her deathbed, but she didn't sign it because she was too weak to sign it because of the whole, you know, liver issue.

• 40:37Josh Clark?

  True.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  It said, to my relatives and friends, I'm writing this statement to say that Dora and I entered on this course of treatment only after thorough investigation, that we have continued it voluntarily and that if death occurs, I believe that it is inevitable that it would have come in any circumstances, which is like, I mean, it sounds like a child wrote that to get out of being in trouble, you know?

• 41:00Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So, and I mean, just that last line about if she dies, it was inevitable anyway, just so smacks of Linda Hazard's philosophy that you can't starve to death. But yeah, it's, it was just very clearly fake. So John Herbert gets involved thanks to Margaret Conway. They find, get this, the vice counsel of the British Embassy in Tacoma. Let all that sink in for a second.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:29Josh Clark?

  They get them involved and they get the guardianship overturned. Herbert gets the $2,000 unpaid bill negotiated down to $1,000 and essentially pays a ransom for Dora to be released.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:44Josh Clark?

  And in the meantime, once he has Dora back, he starts looking into some of these other patients and finds like, Dora and Claire were far from the only victims who were essentially had been exploited financially while they were out of their minds from starvation.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So it's, you know, just like the movie scene is starting to sort of add up in his head. And he brings this evidence in to the authorities there in the county and they investigate, obviously. And Linda Hazard was arrested for murder, for I think murder in the first degree of Claire Williamson and for obvious financial fraud. And it was a, you know, you said earlier, it was sensational. It was a big deal. International press. You know, first they had to find out where the Olalla Woods was. And then they came there and started covering this case. And she was known as the starvation doctor. I think they started calling her place starvation heights instead of, what was it?

• 42:42Josh Clark?

  Wilderness Heights.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, Wilderness Heights.

• 42:44Josh Clark?

  Quite a burn.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a pretty good one. And they, you know, there's a lot of speculation flying around like, you know, that she had this hold over people. There was rumors that she may have been hypnotizing them to keep them under her hold. But like you mentioned earlier, there still are, and certainly back then, had people, either former patients or wealthy benefactors or other naturopaths that were like, hey, you know, she's a, she's a woman practicing outside the box medicine. And that's why she's being prosecuted.

• 43:15Josh Clark?

  Yes, we should say that it actually took a lot of leaning on the Kitsap County prosecutor, where Wilderness Heights was located, to actually prosecute this crime because again, she had a lot of local support and there were a lot of people who were like, she's being persecuted by these Brits who are like total out of towners. And they're being supported by vocal people from the American Medical Association, who want only doctors to to practice their way. And basically, this woman's being, yeah, persecuted as a witch essentially. So she did have a lot of supporters, but she had a lot of detractors too.

• 43:57Josh Clark?

  It seems like on balance, at least as far as the press is concerned, she was generally viewed as a murderer and a grifter, I guess. A grifting murderer, terrible combination.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the first thing she said was this, the first guy that came at me was an ambassador stationed in Tacoma, Tacoma, everyone. Does that sound remotely believable?

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  Right, it does sound kind of made up.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  So, January 15, 1912, the trial starts. They lay out their evidence, basically, which was all pretty obvious, like there she's trying to fleece these people of money when they have no control over their own senses. And I think I had about 100 people testify for the prosecution. There were lots of doctors, you know, being paraded up there as expert witnesses. And Dora even took the stand and talked about this scene, basically, near the end, where she was bedside and Claire is trying to whisper Stevie style, something to Dora, like her sister, as she's passing, essentially.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  And every time she tried to speak, Miss Hazard is, or Mrs. Hazard, as she called them, she kept talking and I couldn't hear, like, she would lean in and she'd say, Dory. And she would interrupt and say, how did you spell that name again? And like, she would not let her, I mean, this is one of the most upsetting parts. Like, she wouldn't even let her sister perhaps even say goodbye? Who knows what she was trying to say?

• 45:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and apparently also.

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  I guess Dr. Hazard cut in and was like, I'm going to give Claire one of my famous massages and pressed down so hard that Claire lost consciousness. And shortly after that, Dora was told that Claire had died.

• 45:49Josh Clark?

  And so, yeah, those probably would have been her last words to her that Linda Hazard basically interrupted on purpose.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think she actually died, Dora found out she died the next morning. So she didn't get that chance later either. The defense, of course, comes in and said that, you know, it wasn't the treatment. She didn't die of starvation. That's when Linda Hazard very famously says, you know, it's not possible to starve someone to death. And, you know, trots out her book in the middle of court and says, here, read this. And this is the quote from the book, "Death in the fast never results from deprivation of food, but is the inevitable consequence of vitality sapped to the last degree by organic imperfection."

• 46:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  I mean, that's quackery, if like 19th century quackery, if I've ever heard it, you know?

• 46:39Josh Clark?

  For sure, but I mean, it is technically true. Like you die from your organs failing, but your organs get their vitality from the food that you're not getting. So it's kind of like potato, potato, essentially.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:54Josh Clark?

  It is very, it's a pretty glib workaround, I guess, but she stood by that. She was like, no, you can't die from starvation. That's why she said Claire died from liver disease. That's why her first patient, Gertrude Young, a first patient to die, she died from paralysis. It's whatever was wrong with you ahead of time. That's what killed you, not starvation. I don't know if Linda Hazard truly believed that. There's actually some evidence at the very end that we'll see, but I, that's just so.

• 47:27Josh Clark?

  Dumb that I and I have the impression that Lynda Hazard was not a dumb person at all. I just can't believe that she believed that.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  I feel like given the financial piece, I feel like she knew what she was doing.

• 47:42Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  That's just my, you know, take on it.

• 47:45Josh Clark?

  Right. So again, there were some supporters who were like, hey, you know, like she's being persecuted. And the jury said, you know what? We're going to split the middle here. We're going to find her guilty on a charge of manslaughter, not murder. So everybody can be unhappy.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically. She was sentenced to two to 20, hard labor at Walla Walla Penitentiary.

• 48:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  And that wasn't it though, because she appealed the case and appealed it and appealed it all the way up to the United States. Or was it the State Supreme Court?

• 48:22Josh Clark?

  No, the, the US Supreme Court from what I understand.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  The US Supreme Court took about 18 months to get there. And, you know, she had supporters sending in letters the whole time saying to release her. The state of Washington did revoke her license to practice medicine. But she did continue to practice. Two more deaths happened after Claire Williamson. And then she finally goes to prison, eventually at Walla Walla.

• 48:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So while she's appealing and is out and about on bail, she two, two more people die. She kills two more people. That's just crazy. She finally gets to Walla Walla, like you said, and that two to 20 years is what's known as an indeterminate sentence. Like you have to serve at least a minimum, but you're not going to serve beyond 20, right? So she was in there for, I think, less than two years before she was paroled. She very famously knitted ponchos for the other inmates. And when she did get out, I think within six months, she had been pardoned by the governor of Washington.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, it's kind of hard to get super accurate information for this old time stuff, but I did see in the Washington Archives, there was a stipulation that she had to leave the country if they were going to let her out. So regardless of whether or not that's true, she did leave the country. We'll get to that in a second. Dora also left the country. She went back to England and settled down in Gloucester and, you know, lived a, it sounds like a pretty great full life after that. She got married in 1914 to Reverend Wyndham Allen Chaplain and lived to be 71 years old. Died in 1945, so she, she fully recovered from her quote unquote treatment.

• 50:05Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  And Linda Hazard went to New Zealand to hawk her wares.

• 50:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and was very well received there. During the trial, one of her focal supporters was the Sydney Morning Herald, I think, or at least some columnist in there. And she made a ton of money again when she showed up in New Zealand, like people just flock to her for her treatment. And I think she long said like, hey, yeah, 15 people died in my care from the fasting, but you know, I've had hundreds of other patients. So is that really that bad? And people are like, yeah, it is kind of bad. But also, you know, most doctors who lose patients don't also fleece them of their, their estate. Like, that's really what took it, like murder is bad.

• 50:56Josh Clark?

  Murder for profit is really bad.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree. We're going to rank murder.

• 51:02Josh Clark?

  Sure. Let's, let's, let's just face it. Murder for profit is really bad.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  I agree. I think the piece that you were talking about, the one additional little piece of information that maybe she did believe, fully believe this stuff.

• 51:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Is that she herself died from her own treatment, June 24th, 1938, self administering of fasting cure. So, you know, I don't think it was pure hokum in her mind. I think she probably did believe it to a certain degree, but I think she took it to extremes to fleece people.

• 51:33Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 51:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that's Linda Hazard.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a book that a lot of us came from, from 1997. It's called Starvation Heights by a local named Greg Olson. So shout out to Greg Olson and that book.

• 51:49Josh Clark?

  If you can't find it, add a second or a third G, I guess, to the end of Greg Olson's name and it should come up.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  Oh, is it G R E G G?

• 51:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, probably won't come up on a search that's just G R E G Olson in Starvation Heights, 1997. But if you add that that extra G, it will definitely come up.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if you just Google Greg Olson, you'll probably come up with the Atlanta Braves catcher from the 1990s or early 2000s.

• 52:15Josh Clark?

  I forgot about him. He was a catcher, huh?

• 52:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:18Josh Clark?

  Okay. You got anything else about Greg Olson, whether you're talking about the author or the catcher?

• 52:24Speaker 02

  I know he was not a belly scratcher.

• 52:28Josh Clark?

  You belly itcher?

• 52:32Speaker 02

  I think scratcher. Pitcher, not a belly itcher. Catcher, not a belly scratcher.

• 52:37Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. I've never heard that second part. You just blew my mind, buddy. Well, since we started talking about Braves pitchers and childhood rhymes, I think it's time for listener mail.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  That's right. This is from Daniel. Hey, guys. Love the episode on maple syrup and all your episodes. I want to let you know something similar in Australia. There's a tree called the cider gum or the ukeletis gunny.

• 53:05Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  And it produces a similar sweet sap, guys. I couldn't find any evidence of it being eaten as is, but the local Palawa people of Tasmania would let it naturally ferment to turn it into a cider-like drink called Waiwena.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Of course, the tree is now incredibly rare and mostly confined to one valley in Tasmania due to all the usual good things. I sense sarcasm there. As a white Australian, I would love for you to do an episode on bush tucker. So much knowledge was lost due to colonization and genocide, but there's still so much amazing information out there. And that is from Daniel.

• 53:42Josh Clark?

  Nice, Daniel. Thank you. Have not heard of cider gum tree?

• 53:48Speaker 02

  No, or bush tucker.

• 53:49Josh Clark?

  No. So those are really great ideas and thanks a lot for that. Cannot wait till we get back to Australia so we can try that cider.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Bush Tucker is a food, apparently.

• 54:00Josh Clark?

  Oh, I think Bush Tucker is like, knowledge. That was the impression I have.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  Well, I just looked it up and it's called, it's a food. So, you know.

• 54:11Josh Clark?

  Thanks for that. You just gave me the rope, didn't you?

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Well, I tried to tell you it was food.

• 54:18Josh Clark?

  Well, I hadn't realized that you looked anything up. I thought we always discussed before we looked things up.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry. Clickety click, type, type.

• 54:25Josh Clark?

  There you go. Now I know. If you want to be like Daniel and send us a great email, we would love that. You can send it off to [email protected].

• 54:39Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 54:54Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F Cab. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 55:36Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. I am here to talk to you about Dude Wipes, who offer fragrance-free wipes that are made with 99% water and plant-based ingredients. So their general Enough for sensitive skin, but they're tough enough for even the worst messes. Weather cleans better, and Dude Wipes Flushable Wipes deliver textbook freshness and ultimate clean.

• 56:17Josh Clark?

  And just like human body molecules, Dude Wipes are made with 99% water, plus they're plastic-free. Dude Wipes give the best clean pants down. Dude Wipes, available at major retailers nationwide.

• 56:29Speaker 06

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.