The Phil Hartman Story

Sadly, Phil Hartman may be best remembered for being murdered in his sleep by his wife. This episode covers that, but mostly aims to stoke the memories of the legendary talent's life and work. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com.

• 1:03Speaker 03

  Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored.

• 1:08Speaker 04

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:17Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and it's just us. Jerry's not here and this is Stuff You Should Know, the invincible duo, the ambiguously gay duo. Yes, sir. You are correct. That was pretty good. I love it when there's like a impression of an impression.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  That's all I do.

• 1:39Josh Clark?

  It's true.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  That's my specialty.

• 1:40Josh Clark?

  But you do it so well.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would, that bit was, uh, obviously Phil, the great Phil Hartman, the late, great, uh, Phil Hartman's Ed McMahon. And that was a, uh, that was something that in college and you know, my college years were generally the Phil Hartman years on SNL. My good friend Eddie and I, you know, Eddie, we, uh, for some reason that one really occurred and still to this day, one of us will say something and the other will go, yes, sir.

• 2:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, it's timeless for sure.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, really stuck with us.

• 2:12Josh Clark?

  I'm sure there's even people walking around doing that who have no idea who Ed McMahon is.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably.

• 2:18Josh Clark?

  There's at least two. That's what I'm putting money on.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  You and someone else.

• 2:23Josh Clark?

  I know who Ed McMahon is.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  I'm just kidding.

• 2:25Josh Clark?

  I'm a fully realized person.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  I know, I'm joking.

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  We're not talking about Ed McMahon, though, not really. We're talking about the first guy you mentioned you were doing an impression of, Phil Hartman, who turns out to be a pretty great, complicated, tragic, ultimately dude.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, actor and comedian, known best for his work on probably Saturday Night Live and The Simpsons. And Dave helped us with this and he wanted us to shout out a book by Mike Thomas called, You Might Remember Me: The Life and Times of Phil Hartman, with one N, even though he was born with two N's on the name Hartman, right?

• 3:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I thought that was pretty, um, pretty crazy. He dropped the second N.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  For his, um, I guess, stage name.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  It looks like a typo, that would be my guess.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  The second N?

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just looks odd.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Well, maybe they pronounced it a little differently, too, like Phil Hartman.

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Probably so.

• 3:22Josh Clark?

  So when he was born in 1948, when he was still named Phil Hartman, he was born in Branford, Ontario. And that might sound familiar to hockey fans because that's where Wayne Gretzky's from.

• 3:35Josh Clark?

  But after Wayne Gretzky, I would say Phil Hartman's probably the second most famous person from Branford, Ontario.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  And boy, I hope you're right.

• 3:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm totally not. There's gonna be, like, Toni Kattan or something will be from, from Branford, Ontario. Although she may still fall behind, um, Phil Hartman.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Uh, she passed away too, I believe, right?

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I stopped keeping up with her after she and David Coverdale broke up.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  I think Wayne Gretzky's alive, though.

• 4:01Josh Clark?

  Yes, he is, alive and slapping.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  That's right. Phil was a middle kid, number four of eight. And as oftentimes with the middle child, especially in Phil's case, when you have an older brother who is like, super athletic and handsome, and a younger sister that needed special care. Because of a rare condition called Angelman Syndrome. Phil, uh, it seems like, felt like he needed to sort of just attract attention by goofing off and being, uh, the class clown, the family clown.

• 4:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what middle kids do. He had like Jan Brady Syndrome, but instead of wearing an Afro wig, he became a actually funny person, right?

• 4:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:39Josh Clark?

  Um, I guess one of the big things that happened to him was when he and his family moved to California when he was

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Nine.

• 4:47Josh Clark?

  Nine, eight, something like that. Um, he was around that age in California, like really suited his blood. I mean, he was born in Ontario. When you move to like Malibu area, like you're, that's a pretty good move typically. I, I love Toronto and I'm not like throwing shade on Ontario in general, but you know, when you move out to Southern California from there, it's, it's a little different, you know?

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially if it turns out you love surfing, sailing and smoking weed or smoking grass at the time, I guess you would say.

• 5:19Josh Clark?

  Okay, the three S's.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz he, uh, something that I, I learned yesterday was that Phil Hartman was a big pothead.

• 5:28Josh Clark?

  Yes, but the kind that the cops wouldn't search your car if you got pulled over, which is a lesson to all those potheads out there. You don't have to look like a pothead to be a pothead.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. He can look straight and make the cops laugh and they'll just say, go along your day. You're just a fun kid.

• 5:42Josh Clark?

  Exactly. I'll just totally ignore that smell coming out of your car.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  So, um, yeah, he, he was really into Southern California life. Apparently he was a great surfer by the time he was 13. This guy was just full of surprises.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:56Josh Clark?

  Um, and around this time, maybe even a little earlier, he, uh, he started to get into comedy. He started doing the, he took the steps that every young comedian takes and that's you start idolizing some different comedians, stand-up comedians. And his were, um, uh, Bob, um, Newhart.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:15Josh Clark?

  And, uh, the other one, and Jonathan Winters, who, uh, even if you don't know who Jonathan Winters is, but you're a more, more Kim Mindy fan.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:23Josh Clark?

  He was the giant old baby that arrived in an egg at Mork and Mindy's doorstep, I guess.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Winters and Newhart, actually, they were sort of comedians, comedians back then in that era from like the 1950s and into the 60s.

• 6:40Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Uh, and both of them were just incredible stand-ups. Jonathan Winters was so funny, uh, especially like with the character work and stuff like that. Which Newhart didn't do. So between the two of those, he got a pretty like well-rounded comedy education, memorizing those albums, doing like I did as a kid, memorizing comedy albums, performing bits for friends and family, stuff like that. And especially on Winters side, those impressions that Jonathan Winters would do. Phil Hartman would copy those and then come up with his own.

• 7:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and very quickly, he excelled past even Jonathan Winters. Like, he was in rich little area by the time he was probably, you know, mid-teens.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a great story they found, I think it was from the book, that he and a bunch of friends went skiing at Mammoth Mountain outside of LA. And as the story goes, they were hanging around at the Hot Springs that night. And Phil's friend said, hey, man, start, you know, doing some of your, your bits here for everybody and impressions. And this sounds like one of those stories has sort of, you know, grown over the years. Because they say over, over two hours, Phil performed basically in front of a hundred strangers. I'm not quite sure if I believe that part. Because I've been to parties at ski resorts, hanging out at Hot Springs, and I'm sure he got a lot of jokes in, but I'm not sure if everyone would just sit there for two hours and watch some guy.

• 8:03Josh Clark?

  Right. And then one of his friends announced, ladies and gentlemen, that was Mr. Phil Hartman, and someday he's going to be a big star. Remember this night.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe it happened, but it's a good story. It's probably apocryphal, but I bet a version of that story happened where Phil was like the life of the party, essentially is my takeaway.

• 8:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, from, from a pretty early age, right? So he's clearly funny. He's really good at impressions, but his path to comedy, I guess, was kind of circuitous. Because he, well, his brother, his older brother, the handsome athletic one you mentioned earlier, John. John decided he wanted to try to get into acting, and I guess this was before Phil could even get a chance. And John went to Hollywood, came back reporting that he was not okay with how seedy Hollywood was. Amoral, not anything like an Ontarian would, would be okay with.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:01Josh Clark?

  And so he said, I'm not going to do acting. And I think that kind of scared Phil a little bit, or at least guided him away from acting for a little while.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seems like it. John went into the music business and co-founded a management company called Hartman and Goodman, and it seems like they had a real. Had their thumb on the pulse. Thumb on the pulse? Sure, you can do that, right?

• 9:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you could use your thumb for that.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Uh, they had their thumb on the pulse of that Laurel Canyon sort of um, country rock scene, because they ended up managing the likes of Neil Young, America, Buffalo Springfield, Eagles, Joni Mitchell, Jackson Brown, Mamas and the Papas.

• 9:39Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Kind of that, that whole scene they were management for.

• 9:42Josh Clark?

  That is a mellow roster, man.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  It is, and probably a lot of grass being smoked.

• 9:47Josh Clark?

  Yes, and Phil smoked a bunch of it, too. He got brought on eventually. He went to art school for a little while, tried to go to the University of Hawaii, was turned down, and I'm sure he wanted to go to the University of Hawaii to surf.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  That's exactly what I thought.

• 10:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so his older brother was like, hey, man, you're not doing anything. You got some art school under your belt. Why don't you come and work for me as a roadie? Because that's what people who go to art school end up doing almost invariably.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, he hooked him up with a little hippie rock band called Rockin' Foo. F O O. Uh, I don't, did you listen to any Rockin' Foo?

• 10:22Josh Clark?

  I didn't. Um, I looked up the, the band members, though. And one of them was, uh, it was a child actor prior to Rockin' Foo. He was on F Troop, Gunsmoke, a bunch of other stuff. And then another one was the guitarist on a lot of the Monkeys hits.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Oh, that's cool. I listened to like three Rockin' Foo songs and I, I liked it.

• 10:44Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. I saw a photo of the band and I was like, I'm not listening to that.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Well, it was, it's probably not your bag, baby. It was, it was that sort of, uh, you know, kind of that, again, that Laurel Canyon sort of country rock thing. I dug it. I thought it was pretty cool.

• 10:57Josh Clark?

  Hey, I love America. Don't get me wrong. I think they're great, but.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  You're no communist.

• 11:02Josh Clark?

  Out of, out of all of the list of, of bands that you rattled off, they're, you know, I, I like that band the most.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just not your bag. I get it. I'm not, I'm not bagging on you.

• 11:13Josh Clark?

  Okay, thanks for not bagging on it, on me for it not being my bag.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you like Kraftwerk, for God's sakes, and elevator music.

• 11:20Josh Clark?

  I like, I like most stuff, just not-

• 11:22Speaker 02

  You're not gonna listen to the Eagles?

• 11:24Josh Clark?

  Bands that you rattled up. Definitely, no. No.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  I'm virulently opposed to listening to Eagles.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  They, they manage, uh, Sonny and Cher too. You probably like them the most.

• 11:34Josh Clark?

  They're fine.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 11:35Josh Clark?

  I don't remember what I said on our Sonny and Cher episode, but I don't remember ever being like, super into their music.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, huh, okay.

• 11:42Josh Clark?

  I guess none of this really matters because what we're really talking about is Phil Hartman and him being a roadie.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:48Josh Clark?

  He kinda started living the rock and roll lifestyle as a roadie for some of these bands. And because he had, um, some art school and he was kind of a developing artist at the time, his brother was like, "Hey, why don't you do some of these album covers for some of the bands?" And he did, and, and at least one of them was pretty good.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did, um, two for Rockin' Fu. I think they only did two albums, so he, he dominated their album cover art.

• 12:13Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Uh, he did some for Crosby, Stills and Nash, or Stills and Nash.

• 12:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I wrote that too.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Uh, America. He did one for your favorite band, America.

• 12:23Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Uh, did one for Poco that's probably the most noteworthy, uh, for their album legend of this. It's a very minimalist, um, artwork of a, of a horse.

• 12:33Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  Uh, and I wanted to mention, it is all over the internet that he did the cover for Steely Dan's Seminole album, Asia. And he did not, uh, but it's everywhere on the internet as fact, and it's, it's apparently not true.

• 12:48Josh Clark?

  What a weird rumor, cause it's just such an arcane fact about him that he ever designed any album covers. But then for a rumor to be about him making one that he didn't, that's really bizarre, but that's the internet for you, right?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm, I'm pretty positive it wasn't him because other people sleuthed it out and dug up the actual artist and, uh, so if you're about to email and say, "Dude, he did Asia," uh, I think he did not.

• 13:12Josh Clark?

  No, the one who, the guy who actually did it was Phil Hartman with two N's.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:18Josh Clark?

  That's why people were confused, I think.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, good point.

• 13:21Josh Clark?

  So around this time also, Phil kicked off, and by the way, we're on a first name basis with Phil Hartman, so we're just gonna keep calling him Phil. He kicked off what would become essentially his trademark for his love life, which was he would fall head over heels for a very, very pretty girl. And they would be hot and heavy for a while. And then he would get married and then basically be like, this isn't working out after a couple of years. And the first person he did that with when he was, I think, 21, maybe 22, was a 19-year-old woman from Malibu named Gretchen Lewis. And she got pregnant pretty quickly while they started dating, but they didn't keep the kid, but they got married after all.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, they divorced in 1972, so I guess either two years or a little under two years. And after that, he got his first professional stage credit when he played Harold Hill in The Music Man for the Santa Monica Theater Company. And Mike Thomas, the guy who wrote the biography, had a quote about, from one of Phil's co-stars in The Music Man, that said, "Phil was a true artist. He didn't really march to the same drum as other people, although it was a part of him that wanted to be perceived as normal. He went through life trying to find a character that he could present to the public that seemed normal and wholesome." And that is also sort of a repeated theme when you talk to friends and colleagues and family over the years, was that no one knew the real Phil. And I've known people like that.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  It's an interesting thing to sort of create personas rather than be yourself. And that seemed to kind of be the case with him.

• 14:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was heavy into impression management, basically everywhere in his entire life.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:03Josh Clark?

  In all corners, right?

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:05Josh Clark?

  And also, just one thing about his first acting credit being, playing Harold Hill, because he went on to play Lyle Lanley, or Lanley, I can't remember which one, who was basically the Simpsons version of Harold Hill from The Music Man in the monorail episode.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Hmm, written by Conan O'Brien.

• 15:23Josh Clark?

  Man, yeah, he was one of the better Simpson writers early on.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  He was, but on that thing about not seeing the real Phil, there was one friend who later said that there was a small room inside Phil that no one will ever get to. So just sort of kind of reinforcing that idea.

• 15:38Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:40Josh Clark?

  And the friend said, "I hear it stinks of feet."

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 15:44Josh Clark?

  I think it's time, yeah.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  All right, we're gonna take a break and come back and talk about Phil's entry into the Groundlings right after this.

• 16:05Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it all starts with a great deal on the truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road Ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 16:28Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 17:05Speaker 05

  First thought is like, wow, how are we gonna do all this?

• 17:08Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 17:27Speaker 05

  It was gonna rival anything that was already built, and that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 17:35Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 17:41Speaker 06

  Through with Alan's whole crew design, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 17:50Speaker 06

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 17:55Speaker 05

  What the fans experience, it's incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 17:58Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 18:02Speaker 07

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Hey everybody. The holidays are coming up, so let us throw this out there. Are you prepared to host friends or family, like really prepared? Because there's a difference between having people stay at your house and properly hosting them.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what we thought. So maybe it's time for a little refresh. Well, we have a tip. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home, so you can host and celebrate without the stress.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  That's right. Whether you're just swapping out a busted appliance or going all in on a top-to-bottom home makeover for the holidays, Wayfair has you covered. Thousands of products, every style, every budget.

• 18:42Josh Clark?

  And it's all built for real life. Every item is hand-vetted by specialists with a 10-point quality inspection. And on top of that, with over 20 million verified five-star reviews, you can have total confidence in all the picks you make.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  So remember, when refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Just head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 19:16Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, we've surely talked about the Groundlings here or there. There's just no way we haven't. But just to refresh, they are a sketch and improv comedy troupe founded in LA who've basically launched the careers of tons and tons of comedians, including a lot of people on Saturday Night Live. Apparently, Saturday Night Live drafts heavily from The Groundlings, Second City. And that's it. But some of the people from Saturday Night Live who were Groundlings, including some who were Groundlings with Phil Hartman, John Lovitz was one, Sherry O'Terry, Maya Rudolph, Kristen Wiig, Will Ferrell. And the list just keeps going on.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Forte, gotta mention Forte.

• 19:58Josh Clark?

  He wasn't on Saturday Night Live, though. That's why I didn't mention him.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  What?

• 20:02Josh Clark?

  Was he?

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Will Forte was MacGruber, my man.

• 20:06Josh Clark?

  Oh, I didn't realize that was a Saturday Night Live character. Sorry, Will, sorry.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  And the Falconer.

• 20:11Josh Clark?

  I didn't realize that he was on Saturday Night Live. I thought those were like standalone things.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  No, he, I mean, I just mentioned that because Forte is one of my all time favorite actors and SNL character, uh, members, cast members.

• 20:23Josh Clark?

  Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to you both then.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  No, he didn't insult me. I just, I just love Forte. He did, he did the weirdest characters on that show kind of consistently. Then I always just respected him for that.

• 20:35Josh Clark?

  Nice. Um, well, that's great. Was he the last man on Earth?

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:41Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  I like that too.

• 20:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he's wonderful. I like him a lot. I like him separately. I also, um, like The Last Man on Earth. So now that the two are joined, I really like him even more.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, my only Will Forte experience was, uh, I think I've mentioned this before, but he was an attendee at a good friend's wedding and my friend sat me, uh, sat Emily and I at his table because he knew I was such a fan. And I partied all night with Will Forte and he was the coolest, funnest dude.

• 21:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's, that's a great story.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, just a real sweetheart.

• 21:10Josh Clark?

  So, um, yeah, so we're talking about the Groundlings, right?

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:15Josh Clark?

  And, um, this is, I don't know, this story doesn't seem to be apocryphal. It seems to be actually true. It's just exactly how it played out is kind of under question, but there was a, a birthday party that a friend of Phil Hartman had. I guess a group of them went to a Groundlings show. And before the show, Phil Hartman just decided to get up on stage and start doing some of his act.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Could that be true?

• 21:39Josh Clark?

  I, I supposedly, I don't, I mean, somebody who's hungry for the stage, I guess.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess, yeah, sure.

• 21:46Josh Clark?

  Right. And so for two hours, he had a hundred strangers just totally enwrapped.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  No.

• 21:52Josh Clark?

  A hot springs developed in the room. But no, apparently, he definitely killed onstage. And the story is that the Groundlings came up to him after he got offstage and were like, "You're in. You want to be in?" That seems to not be true. It seems to be that he went up to them afterwards and was like, "Hey, what do you think about me getting an audition now?" And they said, "Sure." And he went and auditioned, and they said, "You're in."

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, that's the first part of the second part was the part that I don't believe.

• 22:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Because I don't see how there's any way at an improv theater, I know a lot of people in those theaters over the years, and for someone just to jump up onstage and do a bit, I bet they would not have been like, "You're wonderful. Can you join?" They would have been like, "Dude, don't ever do that again."

• 22:39Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. Like, if they went up to him afterward, they probably would have said, like, "Please leave."

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So who knows? But it's a good story. I would love eventually to do episodes on the Groundlings, Second City and UCB is just like a little trifecta suite.

• 22:54Josh Clark?

  Okay, great.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  At any rate, no matter how it happened, Tracy Newman, who was the founding member of the Groundlings, said that Phil Hartman walked into the Groundlings ready to go.

• 23:03Josh Clark?

  Right. And that would also, there was a similar quote, I think, from Lorne Michaels years later, that said he basically was ready the moment he walked into Saturday Night Live, too.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:14Josh Clark?

  He was just a very dedicated actor. And one of the people who really looked up to him became one of his best friends, a fellow Groundling, John Lovitz. And he was saying that he would, he called him the king of the Groundlings, which is pretty cool. But as he, as his, like, career went on, he became known as, like, the most reliable actor in any group. Like, he would stick to the, to the sketch.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  Even if it was going badly, he would hang in there. He wouldn't bail on it. He would just keep going until the end. And usually, the impression I have is that if he was in a sketch, if it would have gone badly otherwise, if other people were in it, if he was in it, it probably wasn't going badly in the first place, which makes it easier to stick to.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, he just seemed kind of unflappable. We'll talk about some SNL stuff in a bit, but yeah, well, I'll save it for then. But one of his most popular Groundlings characters was Chick Hazard, who was the hard-boiled detective like out of the film noir. And that's a character that he would sort of reprise in different ways over the years. He was a good, he was just good with his mouth and good with words and could just rattle off really complex, long strings of comedic dialogue, like, you know, pitch perfect without missing a beat and just, just very, very skilled. Like, some people are funny and some people are super skilled and he was one that was both.

• 24:39Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, well put, Chuck. I think we can end the podcast there.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  Or we should talk about his second marriage.

• 24:44Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, first, though, we should say he was with the Groundlings for 11 years and that is quite a while for being a member of a sketch comedy troupe, including one that doesn't have a TV show or anything. It's like a live theater group. It's a long time. But I think that's kind of like an indicator of the dedication that he brought to you. Acting comedy?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:08Josh Clark?

  Comedic acting? I'm not sure.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he didn't sort of make it in the public eye until he was in his late 30s and that's just a long time to hang in there.

• 25:17Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  Especially in comedy. It's not like late 30s is old, but if you haven't made it by that time as an actor or comedian or something, you're probably sort of wondering like, well, should I take up, you know, surfing again?

• 25:30Josh Clark?

  Right. To those Stuff You Should Know listeners out there in your late 30s trying to break into acting, still do not be discouraged by what Chuck just said. Keep going, guys. You can do it.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  No, don't start surfing. I mean, I didn't get into my career until my late 30s and didn't get really success until my 40s. So I'm, I'm living, I mean, you're younger than me, so you are just a pup.

• 25:54Josh Clark?

  No, that's not true. I was in my mid 30s when things started to pick up for sure.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  No, but I mean, it's funny that I said that because we're good examples of like, hey, you never know what's coming around the corner.

• 26:04Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's absolutely true. Boy, I could tell you some stories of times when I thought this life is not going to work out for me.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. You and me both, man.

• 26:13Josh Clark?

  So, um, we said that he got, he split up with his first wife Gretchen in 1972. He did the Bachelor thing for about another decade and he ran into a woman named Lisa Jarvis. I'm not sure how they met or even necessarily when, but I know in 1982, they got married, 10 years after his last divorce. And it basically followed the same pattern as his first marriage. He just like, it just was like fireworks and then it cooled off and then he lost interest.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, their marriage only lasted a few years. They divorced in 1985. The same year that he ended up having some, some of his first big successes. And that was because five years prior, a guy walks into the Groundlings in 1980 named Paul Rubens with a character named Peewee Herman under his arm or under his belt.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Have you seen the documentary yet?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  I still have not since you asked me yesterday.

• 27:14Josh Clark?

  I know. I thought maybe you would have gone and watched it last night or something, but okay.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's so close to being on my TV. I have no idea.

• 27:22Josh Clark?

  It's really good. Um, but he, so there's a lot about him developing the Peewee Herman character, Paul Rubens at the Groundlings with a lot of help from other Groundlings. Apparently they show some of the early stuff on this documentary. He was much more like obnoxious. He threw tootsie rolls at the crowd. He would insult the crowd.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Wow, that's crazy.

• 27:45Josh Clark?

  And then even after he kind of started to get Peewee like developed, those early stage shows were full of like sexual innuendo and stuff that a little kid wouldn't pick up on, but adults would find funny. But there weren't little kids at these shows anyway, so it didn't matter, right?

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:01Josh Clark?

  But one of the, one of the people, my point was that really helped develop it was Phil Hartman. And I think even up to the first season of Peewee's Playhouse, he played Captain Carl. His character was, he played a character on Peewee's Playhouse for the first season.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, the surly boat captain, Captain Carl, there were other Groundlings around as well, either in the show with him or writing for him, and Phil was one of the writers as well. And they were selling out every night. They ended up at the Groundlings, they ended up moving to the Roxy Theater, which is a little bit bigger, which we talked about in our Sunset Boulevard episode.

• 28:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  And, or if it hasn't come out yet, we will talk about it on that episode.

• 28:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  And then in 1980, there was a producer named Paula Kaufman, who said she wanted to create a kid's show for adults, saw Peewee at the Groundlings and was like, this is it. This is the show.

• 28:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Again, this documentary, so like this particular part, when they're developing the TV show is just, it's just not so amazing, right?

• 29:05Speaker 02

  I can't wait.

• 29:06Josh Clark?

  So Phil was there when Paul Rubens did an HBO special. It was essentially one,

• 29:14Josh Clark?

  I guess, a HBO version of the stage show that it started out as. That caught the attention of other people in Hollywood and they said, hey, how about a movie? And they did Peewee's Big Adventure together. Phil Hartman was a co-writer on that. And that was 1985. And so things are finally starting to like pick up in ways that Phil Hartman had been hoping. Like, he'd been writing scripts, he'd been auditioning for TV shows. Now all of a sudden, he had a hit movie writing credit under his belt. So he's thinking, okay, things are about to take off, which explains why in 1985, when Lorne Michaels came to him and said, hey, do you want to audition for Saturday Night Live? He said, no, I'm good. I'm going to pass on that.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was Lorne Michaels' return to SNL. He very famously had an absence from the show and the show kind of did not fare well without Lorne Michaels, the creator.

• 30:09Josh Clark?

  You weren't a fan of the Tim Kaczynski years?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  I mean, no, some of that stuff is okay, but just as a general success, the show was kind of going downhill.

• 30:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  But I did, I get your joke, first of all, Tim Kaczynski. He was funny, though. I like that guy.

• 30:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, no, he was. He was like, perfect for the characters he played, like, on, um, Police Academy. I can't remember his, his character's name. He was great on that.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  That was the same guy. I forgot about that.

• 30:35Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Uh, but Lorne came back to save this, uh, save the show, uh, in eighty-five, eighty-six.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  He, again, like you said, asked Phil to come aboard. He said no, because he was, uh, you know, he thought he could make it as an actor, you know, in just regular comedies. And John Lovitz joined instead. And then John Lovitz got him another audition in eighty, for the eighty-six, eighty-seven season.

• 30:59Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  He went in, uh, he had already met Lorne a couple of times, uh, one when he met Lorne Michaels, I believe, at the, uh, I think when, when Rubens hosted SNL for the first time.

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  Uh, is when he first met Lorne. But then he was also had a small part in Three Amigos, which Lorne produced. And then, uh, if you, if you ever have a chance, just sit down on YouTube and watch the Phil Hartman audition for SNL. Um, he did that Chick Hazard character first. He did a, one of the fake commercials, and that's where you can tell just how skilled he is, because it's one of those fast-talking commercials where he's talking like this about a product, but it's not, you know, he's not reading cue cards. It's just in his brain and memorized, and he just, it's flawless. Uh, and you hear something that you just never hear in an SNL audition, which is people laughing. You know, they're very famous for just sort of sitting there stone-faced.

• 31:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Even if you're doing well, and you hear people laughing in the background.

• 31:56Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, that is very telling, for sure. Um, so there one, there's one part of his audition reel, um, where he does an impression of a German comedian doing impressions of famous people.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  That was so good.

• 32:10Josh Clark?

  He said the, the most fa, the funniest man in Germany, Günther Johann, right?

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:16Josh Clark?

  And so Günther does impressions of, like, Jack Nicholson, John Wayne, Jack Benny, but they're all speaking German. And it's just, like, a spot-on impression of, of John Wayne.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:28Josh Clark?

  Speaking German. And he's doing an, a, a German, an impression of a German comedian doing these impressions. It's just amazing. He goes right into it.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:37Josh Clark?

  It ju, it really does show off his talent. Plus, it's also hilarious, too.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:40Josh Clark?

  You know, a lot of times when you talk about people being funny, it, it loses its funniness.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:47Josh Clark?

  So just go watch it.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Agreed. Totally agree. He was hired with pretty rock star cast, all new members, Jan Hook, Dana Carvey, Victoria Jackson, and Kevin Nealon.

• 32:59Josh Clark?

  Man, what a dream team.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty good. And that really kind of helped bring the show back.

• 33:04Josh Clark?

  And how? I mean, to me, that's like the golden age. I think it destroys the 70s. The 70s was cool and like amazing and, you know, really energetic, but the 80s were just like pro.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:17Josh Clark?

  To me. Okay, so it could be just that's the one I grew up with. Who knows?

• 33:22Speaker 02

  I mean, there is that theory that whatever age you were in high school, I think is your favorite, what you think is the best SNL cast.

• 33:29Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, I might subscribe to that theory.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  No, I love that era.

• 33:34Josh Clark?

  So, um, let's back up a second because you said that he met Lorne, Phil Hartman met Lorne Michaels when Paul Rubens Peewee hosted Saturday Night Live in 1985. And the reason that he was there was because Paul Rubens brought Phil Hartman along and another collaborator from The Groundlings, John Paragon, as his writers to work with the Saturday Night Live writers to make good sketches for Peewee Herman for that episode, right? So Peewee, or Paul, introduced Phil to Lorne. Lorne comes to call in the next year and the year after that. And eventually Phil says, hey, Paul, I've got to go. I finally got my break.

• 34:17Josh Clark?

  I'm going on Saturday Night Live. And Paul was not happy about that. If you've seen the documentary, which I know you haven't, they covered this.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  I watched it real quick.

• 34:28Josh Clark?

  Just now? Okay. So you know then, they covered this in the documentary. Apparently it's not a very well-known or it's kind of a forgotten story, but they had a falling out and they didn't really talk or ever reconcile for the rest of Phil Hartman's life. Because Paul was, and there's really no other way to put it. Very, very jealous. He felt spurred.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 34:49Josh Clark?

  Um, jilted, spurned.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:51Josh Clark?

  Jilted, spurred to action.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:55Josh Clark?

  And he was also, yeah, very jealous because he had tried out for Saturday Night Live and did not get picked up.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 35:03Josh Clark?

  And I can't remember who got the, the spot instead of him. And then, um, yeah, and then, uh, Phil Hartman left Pee Wee's Playhouse to go to Saturday Night Live. So he, Paul was kind of a, not the most forgiving person from what I can tell from the documentary. So he just held that grudge for the rest of Phil Hartman's life.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Oh, man. That's sad.

• 35:24Josh Clark?

  It is sad for sure.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  I hate hearing that. I might pause that part or skip over it when, uh, I watch the documentary tonight.

• 35:31Josh Clark?

  Okay. It's at 12336 is when it starts.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Uh, shall we take our final break?

• 35:38Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  All right. Let's take another break and we'll talk about, uh, a, a meeting in 1985 that would change the course of Phil Hartman's life, right after this.

• 36:01Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on the truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road ready Tacoma or a half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure and the rugged style for everything in between.

• 36:23Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 37:04Josh Clark?

  Hey everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on. Whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 37:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  All right, as promised, a meeting in 1985 would change the course of Phil Hartman's life. And that is when Phil met a woman named Bryn Omdal at a party. She was a tall, beautiful blonde from Minnesota, but moved to LA to be a model, or an actress, or both. And previous to meeting him, in the late 70s and early 80s, she had an alcohol problem, she had a cocaine problem, but had gotten sober, to her credit, and was looking for a good dude to hook up with. And when she met Phil, he was, this is sort of right before Peewee's Big Adventure came out, and he got the offer to be on SNL. So he was at a pretty low point auditioning, and his, coming out of that second marriage.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  And so he was like, all right, this beautiful woman loves me, and then maybe validates me in a certain way, and so they got together.

• 39:12Josh Clark?

  They did, and it was just like all the other ones, except this one was like, when it burned red hot, that could also be really bad, too.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:20Josh Clark?

  It wasn't just like two people super into each other. It was also two people who like couldn't, couldn't like, just clashed a lot, right? So they would get in really big fights and then they would make up and they would get in another fight and then they would make up. And despite this, early on, they still ended up getting married and went on to have two kids, Sean and Bergen. I think Sean was the oldest and he was the boy and Bergen was their little girl. And from all accounts, like Bryn was a really good mom and really loved Phil Hartman. But there was a huge issue in that she was an aspiring actress and she wanted to,

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  I think she wanted Phil to help her career more than he was comfortable helping it.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:09Josh Clark?

  And I totally get this. He was not the kind to like, be like, hey, can you get my wife on your show? Or, you know, have you seen my wife? Actually, she's great. Why don't you give her a shot? He just would not do something like that, right? So that then and there caused some pretty, pretty serious static between the two. And then on top of that, after they got together, his career actually started taking off. So in addition to him not helping her, she was like living in his shadow. So that was a big source of conflict between the two.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So he's got this marriage that starts, you know, that's, you know, rocky like his other relationships had been, but it has staying power more than the others.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  He was 37 when SNL started, right? Kind of when they got together. And his nickname on SNL was The Glue. You kind of talked earlier about how he was always sort of looked at as a stabilizing force in The Groundlings and SNL. And his nickname was The Glue because he was just perfect, basically, whenever he performed. We got to talk about some of his best characters. Phil Donahue was one of my favorites when he did Phil.

• 41:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Ed McMahon, of course.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  The aforementioned Ed McMahon was one of my favorites. I really, for some reason, loved the Frankenstein, Tonto, Tarzan bit that he and Kevin Nealon and John Lovitz did.

• 41:33Josh Clark?

  When they did Little Drummer Boy?

• 41:35Speaker 02

  It was so silly, but I loved it.

• 41:38Josh Clark?

  That's pretty good. He was Frankenstein, right?

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was Frankenstein. I think Lovitz was Tonto and Nealon was Tarzan. If you haven't seen it, look it up. But basically, the whole point is none of them speak English. And so they would do like Christmas songs and Frankenstein would just go

• 41:56Speaker 02

  And Lovitz did Tonto and, you know, looking back, it was probably a fairly racist depiction of a Native American.

• 42:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then you said Nealon was Tarzan.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  And I don't even know what Tarzan did. Probably just like jungle grunting.

• 42:10Josh Clark?

  It was, it's very good. I mean, like, basically, we should just sit here for the rest of the episode and talk about Phil Hartman sketches, because each one was better than the last. Like, Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer?

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:23Josh Clark?

  First of all, what a, what a, like, just an exceptional idea to start with, but he's, he just pulls it off so perfectly. This smarmy lawyer who's an unfrozen caveman who went to law school and became a smarmy, I guess, a personal injury lawyer?

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so.

• 42:40Josh Clark?

  And again, like, we can talk it out and it will kill any funniness to it. Just go watch that one. Go look up Colon Blow, the Saturday Night Live commercial.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, classic.

• 42:50Josh Clark?

  It is. And then Ronald Reagan Mastermind, did you watch that one?

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember. I didn't re-watch it, but I remembered it.

• 42:58Josh Clark?

  I re-watched it and I remembered it. It came out around the time the Iran-Contra affair scandal broke. And at the time, Ronald Reagan was like, I don't know anything. Like, I didn't, I didn't know. Who knows who knew? Like, I didn't know this was going on. So they make fun of him

• 43:15Josh Clark?

  and his public persona, just kind of being this doddering old man who, who doesn't really have his finger on the pulse of his own administration to this, when people aren't around and it's just him and his staff, him just like barking orders and being totally super sharp and being the, the mastermind behind everything. It's in like the, his just turning Public Reagan on and off and then turning that private like aggressive Reagan on and off.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:41Josh Clark?

  It's just, I mean, like, you really see, like, this guy was amazing. Like, uh, like, one of a kind, basically. I can't think of anybody who could do the stuff that he did but before him or since.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, absolutely. Well said. Um, he would go on to do another president very famously in 92 when Bill Clinton won the presidency and he had a just a dead on Clinton impersonation, just not only the voice, but just his sort of the smarmy kind of Bill Clinton thing and the ego, like, they, they lampooned him very, very well, very effectively.

• 44:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he, there's one where he was jogging into a McDonald's while he was running for president.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:18Josh Clark?

  During like a campaign stop and he's like, you know, about to kiss a baby and he looks past the baby and and says to the mom, like, hey, are you gonna eat the rest of those french fries? And it just goes from there. Oh, my God, it's perfect. So, um, one of the things about Saturday Night Live that I learned even as a young viewer, if you're on beyond a certain number of years, it starts to have a certain kind of look. Like, it kind of shows the world, like, you are perfect for Saturday Night Live, but for some reason, it's not clicking outside of that. So you just hang in there as long as you can at Saturday Night Live. And what's astounding and nuts is that that happened to Phil Hartman. He was there through

• 44:59Josh Clark?

  a couple of cast changes, like, big time, huge cast changes, where it went from, like, Kevin Nealon and Jan Hooks to Chris Farley and David Spade.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:09Josh Clark?

  And Chris Rock, too, at the same time as well. And I think Sarah Silverman came in around that time, too. So, like, he was in for a huge transition. He straddled two big transitions of Saturday Night Live. And that's a, just like with The Groundlings, this is a really long time to be a member of Saturday Night Live, and I think he felt overlooked because a lot of his colleagues were starting to get their own movies and he was not.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he was on for eight seasons. Uh, over those eight seasons, he did, he was in more sketches than any other cast member. Uh, when he retired from SNL, they gave him, on the show, they gave him a little statue of an Elmer's glue, like, affixed to a trophy kind of thing.

• 45:47Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Because of his nickname, The Glue. But, yeah, he definitely was getting side parts in these movies. Like, he was in So I Married an Ex-Murderer, he was in Coneheads, but he wasn't the star. And by the time he was, uh, Rock and Sandler and those guys came along and Farley, he was in his 40s, and he was kind of playing the straight man roles, like the old man of the family. Uh, one, you know, sort of obvious example is the, uh, Matt Foley, um, you know, the, living in a van down by the river, the motivational speaker sketch. Phil Hartman was the dad, and, you know, no one remembers that because everyone remembers Chris Farley. Um, quick aside, that sketch was created and written by Bob Odenkirk.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, I, I forgot he wrote for Saturday Night Live, too.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the reason I know that is because I watch Kevin, I follow Kevin Nealon on Instagram, and he does this, I don't know if he releases them as a podcast, I'm gonna have to look, but he does these hikes through, um, one of the, you know, canyons there in LA, in the Hollywood Hills, and he interviews people on these hikes, and he was interviewing Bob Odenkirk, and they were talking about that sketch.

• 46:48Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's cool.

• 46:50Josh Clark?

  It is a great sketch, but you can kind of see how, like, Phil Hartman's super pro, um, really contained and perfect, um, delivery and style. It, it doesn't jibe well unless he's just playing it straight to somebody like Farley, just going berserk.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:08Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 47:10Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, he finally, he left. He left on great terms. He just killed Saturday Night Live. He became a legend on Saturday Night Live. Um, and he went on to still have a pretty great career. He went on to do four seasons of News Radio, which is one of the great, um, underrated office comedies, along with, um, Working, the one that Fred Savage was in. Did you ever see that one?

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Hmm, no.

• 47:34Josh Clark?

  It was good. And Just Shoot Me is the other underrated office comedy of all time, I think, from the 90s at least. But he was on four episodes of News Radio, had a great character.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Four seasons, yeah.

• 47:44Josh Clark?

  Four, what did I say?

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Episodes.

• 47:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, seasons, for sure. Um, had a great character, Bill McNeil, and, um, he just basically picked up a second part of his career. And then also, simultaneously, he was doing The Simpsons, too, which is where a lot of people fell in love with Phil Hartman.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, just a little show called The Simpsons. Uh, he was asked in 1990 to do some voiceover work. For that show and he said, yeah, I'll do it, but just one time because he apparently had a pretty bad experience doing voiceover for animation for the Dennis the Menace animated show.

• 48:16Josh Clark?

  I remember that.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  But he said, I'll do it just once. But then of course, that didn't last because he was great on it and he started working with the writers, started developing characters. And for eight seasons, he voiced some of the most iconic characters. Of course, the great Troy McClure and Lionel Hutt's attorney at law are the two sort of most notable because, you know, they would come on as their little side bits here and there, but Troy McClure actually ended up getting a pretty major storyline when he hooked up with, which one was it?

• 48:50Josh Clark?

  I think Patty. I don't remember.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  One of Marge's two sisters. I couldn't remember if it was Patty or.

• 48:56Josh Clark?

  Selma.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Selma. Yeah, that's right.

• 48:59Josh Clark?

  It was one of them.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, they fell in love and that's from one of my favorite lines from Troy McClure was after they went out on a date, he sees her the next day and his famous line was, you may remember me from whatever, like acting role that he was in. And in this case, he said, I'm Troy McClure. You may remember me from certain dates like last night.

• 49:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was well known for that. You may remember me from such educational films as the decapitation of Larry Leadfoot.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 49:29Josh Clark?

  Or here comes the metric system.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:33Josh Clark?

  He was great. Yeah. And like, he had one episode where he was big, but the rest of the time was just like you said, a little side thing. And he still created a legendary character times two. And as a matter of fact, when he died, the Simpsons were like Lionel Hutt's and Troy McClure will never appear on the Simpsons again. They just couldn't, no one else could do it.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:52Josh Clark?

  So speaking of him dying, this is going to go long because this is kind of an involved story, but he, like I said, he and Bryn had a lot of tension. Apparently Phil Hartman had an anxious avoidant attachment style. When she wanted to talk, when she was confrontational, he would basically get in a sailboat and sail off to Catalina Island alone, I take it, but he was. Just he would withdraw. You couldn't get to him. That was the way that he dealt with it. And she did not like that. I think it made her feel very lonely. And then again, she was living in a shadow. He wasn't helping her career. They had two kids. And again, she was a really, really good mom by all accounts.

• 50:32Josh Clark?

  She also had some former demons that she had conquered, including an alcohol addiction and an addiction to cocaine. And she was clean when she and Phil met and she stayed clean for a while. But she got back on the cocaine train after she did coke with Andy Dick. At a news radio party, Christmas party in 1997.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, we don't know if that's the first time she started back again, but as the story goes, he offered her cocaine. He said that he didn't know that she had had a drug problem before, did not know that apparently she had been clean. And John Lovitz, for many, many years, was very public about blaming Andy Dick. For, you know, for her falling off the wagon and it led to a crazy story where in 2007. John Lovitz assaulted Andy Dick at the Laugh Factory and like got into a.

• 51:30Speaker 02

  I mean, I was gonna say a fistfight, but it doesn't sound like it was punchy, but more John Lovitz, at least as the way he tells it. Ramming Andy Dick's head back into the bar, like repeatedly and said, I would have kept doing it too, but the bartender stepped in.

• 51:45Josh Clark?

  I'm Frenchy. Yeah, he apparently he he took over for Phil Hartman after Phil Hartman died on news radio. And one of the first days, he said to Andy Dick, I wouldn't be here if you hadn't given cocaine to Bryn. So he blamed Andy Dick for the death of Bryn and Phil. So Andy Dick didn't like that. Later on, he said, he saw they they saw each other at a restaurant. He said, I put the Phil Hartman hex on you. You're the next to die. And then the next time they saw each other is when John Lovitz beat up Andy Dick, which I mean, had no idea about that. Did you?

• 52:21Speaker 02

  No, I didn't know that story until today or yesterday, whenever you sent it over, which is just one of those crazy stories. But very sadly, it was May 27th and you know, we should say Bryn at this point, she was upset about Phil's.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  You know, smoking too much weed.

• 52:40Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  She was, had an anxiety problem. She was suffering through some depression. She got on antidepressants, started drinking again. Not sure who started the cocaine thing, maybe Andy Dick, but she got back into cocaine. And was in a pretty bad state of mind. And on May 27th, 1998, she had gone out for drinks. At an Italian restaurant and wanted to go to another bar, but her friend didn't want to. So she called up her old drug and buddy from the seventies and early eighties, a guy named Doug. And Doug was clean now, but said, why don't you come over to my house? She had some more drinks over there and was basically complaining about her marriage, about Phil smoking too much pot. And then not getting along and, you know, being just at loose ends.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  And at one in the morning, he's like, you know, you need to go home, you need to go home to your husband.

• 53:28Josh Clark?

  So she, she did, I don't think she had much of a choice. Doug was like, you, you gotta leave. And I guess when she got home shortly after that, she and Phil got into an argument. Phil went off to bed, managed to fall asleep. And remember Bryn is on Zoloft, has been drinking for hours now and is on cocaine. And she went and got one of their guns, a 38 special. And walked up to Phil while he was sleeping and shot him three times, once in the head. And I, I never saw if he woke up or if he even knew it happened. Hopefully not.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  I got it.

• 54:06Josh Clark?

  And he just died while he was asleep. That would be what I would hope, but he died instantly because he was shot three times at close range.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so about an hour after that, she called up her friend Doug, who she was just with. She was super, super drunk at this point. Doug said, you needed to sleep this off. She didn't tell him at that point when it happened. And about 20 minutes later, she shows up back at Doug's house. Saying that she killed Phil and he doesn't believe her. And then apparently, as the story goes, while she was there, the gun fell out of her purse. And he was like, what is going on? He helps her sober up over the course of a couple of hours. Drives her back over at about six in the morning to their house and he sees Phil dead. And he calls the cops. And at that point Bryn locks herself in the bedroom with Phil's body. And that's where she was when the cops arrived.

• 54:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, um, I, both of their kids were in the house at the time. I think Sean, the oldest, woke up and Doug was like, let's get you out of here and took, uh, Doug, took Sean outside to the police, but the whole time Bergen's sleeping through like her mom just murdered her dad and then it just gets worse, actually.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. So she is barricaded in the room with Phil. Uh, the cops are there. She's making phone calls to friends and family, saying, you know, confessing basically to what she had done. And finally, her last call was to her sister Kathy. Uh, she said, take care of my children. Just let them know how much I love them. She got a second gun and laid down on the bed next to Phil and shot herself and killed herself.

• 55:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And became one of the most hated people in America, if not the world, almost overnight. I remember hating her guts when I heard about this.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 55:46Josh Clark?

  Um, as an older person, I, I have a little more empathy for, um, just the amount of loneliness. And then also being on antidepressants, cocaine and alcohol.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:56Josh Clark?

  Definitely is not a good combination, especially when you have guns in the house. But, um, yeah, I've changed my approach to her a little bit and I was kind of, um, happy to read that at the, at the funeral, um, Phil's brother, John, was asking the people in attendance, like, please try to find it in your heart to forgive her for this. Like, this wasn't, this is, this was a horrible thing, but it's not like she was evil. She was a, a loving, a loving wife and a loving mother and like, let's try to remember her for that.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And especially at the funeral to, to have the guts to say something like that was pretty, pretty stand up thing to do, I think. Um, yeah, a good, like life lesson there. Uh, Phil was, he was gonna come back to news radio. It's not like he was done with the show. He was gonna come back for season five, but like you mentioned, John Lovitz took over. Uh, the first episode of season five dealt with the death of the character. It was called Bill Moves On.

• 56:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  Very emotional episode. Uh, and I think you already mentioned that they, you know, the Simpsons was like, we're never, ever gonna get someone to do Troy McClure or Lionel Hutt again.

• 57:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's true. And then he finally got his, um, star on the Walk of Fame in 2014.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we should mention, uh,

• 57:09Speaker 02

  Bryn's sister Kathy respected her wishes and she's who raised the kids.

• 57:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Along with her husband.

• 57:15Josh Clark?

  Yep. So, good for her.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:18Josh Clark?

  That's Phil Hartman. One of the sad outcomes of all this, Chuck, I think, is when you search Phil Hartman, just Phil Hartman, most of what comes up on the first couple of pages of search engines is about the murder.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:31Josh Clark?

  Not like, look at all the hilarious stuff he did. So, maybe look up Phil Hartman SNL videos and just go from there.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 57:39Josh Clark?

  And that's all we have to say about Phil Hartman for now. So, I guess, Chuck, it's time for listener mail.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  This is from Katie Josiah, a six-month-old baby.

• 57:52Josh Clark?

  Oh, wow.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  And Chris.

• 57:53Josh Clark?

  This is amazing.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Hey, guys. My wife and I were just listening to the William A. Mitchell story from a few weeks ago. We heard that Bill was the inventor of Tang. My wife is from Georgia, but I'm from the Midwest. So, we always like to talk about things we grew up with, different foods and traditions, restaurants, et cetera, and how they were similar or sometimes very different. Well, I found out that I consumed Tang in a very unique way, apparently. Hot.

• 58:15Josh Clark?

  Oh, I thought he was gonna say right up the nose.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  When I was young, in the winter months in Ohio, my dad would warm up the kettle and mix Tang in boiling water. It was a warm drink that we could have whenever we played out in the snow, and my sister and I loved it. And he called it Hot Tang. And I just thought all Tang was consumed hot, which is pretty funny. I've actually never drank cold or even room temperature Tang. Hope all is well with you and yours. With love from North Georgia, Katie Josiah, six months old, and Chris.

• 58:41Josh Clark?

  I would try that, especially with like a cinnamon stick.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sounds like a, you ever have like Theraflu or something when you're sick?

• 58:49Josh Clark?

  Man.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Or a hot toddy?

• 58:51Josh Clark?

  I love the taste of Theraflu so much. I would drink it once in a while when I'm not sick.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  It really puts you to sleep, man.

• 58:57Josh Clark?

  It really does.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  If you get the good stuff. I too love Theraflu.

• 59:00Josh Clark?

  The warning on the box about your liver is, it scares me. So, I only do it once in a while.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, we should get them on as a sponsor, man.

• 59:07Josh Clark?

  We should. We should drink it on the podcast once in a while.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I bet Tang, Hot Tang, is pretty similar, and I bet a little whiskey in there would be pretty good.

• 59:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Well, don't get Katie started this early. She's only six months old.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  No, Katie's the wife.

• 59:23Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. Well, who is six months old?

• 59:25Speaker 02

  That, what was it, Josiah?

• 59:27Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. I thought Katie's last name was Josiah. I see. There was a comma in there that I wasn't aware of.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, Chris wrote the letter.

• 59:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  He married Katie.

• 59:37Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  And they had Josiah six months ago.

• 59:41Josh Clark?

  Okay, gotcha. Well, I guess I should just say congratulations to Katie and John.

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, for Josiah and everything else.

• 59:47Josh Clark?

  There you go. Yeah, and thank you also for sending the email. That was a great one. Hot Tang sounds wonderful. We'll go try it. And if you want to be like Katie, Josiah, and Chris, who I may have just called John, I'm not sure, you can send us an email too at [email protected].

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 1:00:24Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordibility, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Introducing Voices of VivGart. VivGart is also known as its generic name, F-Gart Tigamod Alpha F-Cab, and this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease.

• 1:01:05Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little, and their free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you Full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com.

• 1:01:57Speaker 03

  Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored.

• 1:02:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.