The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader

Larry Bader disappeared in 1957 and reappeared a few days later with a new identity. Was it a brain injury or a scam? To this day, nobody knows. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:04Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:14Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too, and this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  That's right. I don't want to give away what this one contains, so let's just say it is the strange tale of a man named Larry Bader.

• 1:30Josh Clark?

  Yes, who went to great lengths to escape Ohio.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Well, you just gave it away.

• 1:38Josh Clark?

  Not really.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  This guy, Lawrence Joseph Bader, he was an Akron native, so shout out to my people, my wife's folks in Akron, Akron, Akron, Akron, as she says, because of that bridge. If you've been through there, you know what I'm talking about. He was born in 1926 to a Catholic, pretty well-to-do Catholic family. His father was a dentist, and Lydia dug up some dirt from a family friend. Uh, who was like, you know, Larry and his brothers and sisters were spoiled little rich kids. Larry was, uh, pretty careless with his money because he could just get more anytime he needed it.

• 2:15Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  But he was a, he was a pretty funny guy. He's a pretty fun dude, had a lot of, um, personality. And he used to do weird things, uh, like in one of his party tricks, what he would, he would eat a whole chicken, like, including the bones.

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's a, that's, that's special.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, but put a pin in that. We're not just mentioning that strange fact for no reason.

• 2:35Josh Clark?

  No. Uh, so he joined the Navy in 1944. Uh, I think he left high school to join the Navy because the United States was in the grip of World War II. And he served for, I think, a little under two years. And when he came back, he graduated from high school and he went to the University of Akron. But school was just not for him and he dropped out after a semester. Apparently he was, um, known for money-making schemes more than he was known for acing tests.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  I gotta say, if you're known for money-making schemes after a semester, you must have been doing a lot of money-making, well, highly visible money-making schemes.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or you wear a suit that's, um, got dollar, dollar signs printed all over it. It's a green suit with dollar signs. That's another way to, to become known for money-making schemes.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, wait, well, it's, all my suits look like that, you know, hey.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Nothing?

• 3:36Josh Clark?

  No, you threw me off.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  All right, uh, so he's not lasting in college. He didn't last long in the Navy. Um, but while he was in college, he did accomplish something because he got married. He met a woman named Mary Lou Knapp, uh, with a K. They got married in 19, 1952 and within five years, had three kids with a fourth on the way and he was doing pretty well for himself. He was making the equivalent of about a hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year these days, um, as a cookware salesman. And that was about twice the median, uh, income at the time. So he's doing pretty good, but he still had some debts. He had a pretty hefty mortgage. He had a new car and was about two thousand four hundred dollars in debt.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Basically, you can multiply most stuff from this era by 10 and arrive at our modern conversion rate. So, you know, roughly $24,000 in debt is pretty hefty.

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He also, like, he didn't pay his taxes for like five years, I think.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, not good.

• 4:39Josh Clark?

  No, and it was bad enough, he was bad enough with the bills or behind enough that the milkman apparently said, like, "I'm not bringing milk anymore until you pay your milk bill."

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:50Josh Clark?

  So, the thing is, is this guy, like you said, family friend from when he was a kid, was like, he was a rich kid, but he was actually a really charming, fun-to-be-around rich kid. And apparently, as he grew up into an adult, he remained essentially the same. Like, basically, everyone who met him or had something to say about him later on, basically unanimously said, "This guy was a good guy." So, if he's like cracking under the pressure of these bills and this debt, it's not showing outwardly to anybody who knew him. One of his friends said that he was a red-blooded American 30-year-old family man who liked hanging out and drinking beer with friends.

• 5:33Josh Clark?

  And his friends liked hanging around him because he was just fun to be around, essentially, without being like a reckless party animal. He was just fun to be around.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, just sort of your average fun guy.

• 5:46Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  And he was also, and put a pin in this, we just were not mentioning this for no reason, he was also very good at archery, had won some competitions. So, he was into archery, he was a fun guy, and everything's swimming along in his life, making a pretty good living, little bit in debt. And then on Wednesday, May 15, 1957, he had collected some bad payment checks from vendors, from his business, and said, "You know what, I gotta go to Cleveland to kind of clear up these bad checks with these vendors." He tells this to his wife, Mary Lou, who was, keep in mind, four months pregnant. And he said, "So, I'm going up to Cleveland, it's gonna be the morning, and then I'm gonna probably

• 6:27Speaker 02

  do a little fishing in the afternoon in Lake Erie, and so I'll be home late." And she said what any partner should say in that situation, which is, "Maybe you could also come home and be a father and husband, instead of going fishing after you do your work." And he supposedly replied with, "Yeah, maybe I will, maybe I won't." All right, so I'm not saying he's some really bad guy. It may have been a cheeky response. That may have been how things went in their marriage. But he just was a little vague and that will come into play.

• 7:03Josh Clark?

  So one of the things he did was he paid some bills before he left. And one of those bills was a life insurance premium. He had recently adjusted or changed the policy to include a nice payout for an accidental death. And he whistled as he drove off to Cleveland and eventually went to Rocky River, Ohio, which is a little town on the Rocky River, which flows into Lake Erie. And he rented a boat at Eddie's boat dock, about a half a mile inland from the lake, from a guy named Lawrence Cutlour. Yeah, Cutlour. Yeah, anyway, he paid 15 bucks from a big roll of bills. It's also kind of important.

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  And he said, hey, Lawrence, I want you to put some running lights on this boat because I'm probably going to be out after dark. And Lawrence said, OK, I'll do that, but it's going to cost you an extra fiver, I'm presuming here at this time. And Larry Bader paid it.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, he paid it and he was like, all right, whatever, buddy. He did notice, and this is stuff that, you know, they interviewed Lawrence afterward for reasons that we still don't know because we're keeping this a secret.

• 8:15Josh Clark?

  Well, we know.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Well, we know, yeah, sure. But he did notice that he had a suitcase with him. He thought that was a little bit weird. He said, you know, you got a storm coming. You might not want to be out there after dark.

• 8:29Josh Clark?

  That is not what people in Cleveland town like.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Sure it is.

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  And like a Stephen King novel about Cleveland, maybe.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  So people don't go in there. That's why the Browns play.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  So, um, he warned him about the storm. He goes out on Lake Erie. The Coast Guard sees him and says, hey, there, you know, there's a big storm coming in after sunset. And I've noticed you have some running lights. So you clearly plan on being out after dark. And he was like, it's fine. And so they said, all right, go about your way.

• 9:02Josh Clark?

  To hell with you.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  That storm does come in and Larry Bader has disappeared. They find the boat the next day about five miles away. The life jackets were all on board. There was a, some scratches, like it had hit some rocks. There was a bent propeller and some accounts say that it was either a gas line had been disconnected or the gas cans were empty. But either way, and I guess it's the kind where the gas line runs directly into like a gas can that's sitting on the boat. Must have been one of those kind of boats. But basically they were like, but nothing shows the kind of distress where a human would be completely missing. Like it wasn't capsized or sunk or anything like that.

• 9:40Josh Clark?

  No, and the life jacket was in the boat, you said, right?

• 9:44Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 9:44Josh Clark?

  So that's a really, that's a, so that's a big point because the Coast Guard was like, that was one heck of a storm on Lake Erie. There's no, no way that anybody could have survived this, even a strong swimmer like Larry Bader was known to be, um, without a life jacket.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of the oars was missing, but you know, just do that, do with that what you will.

• 10:05Josh Clark?

  Right, but the boat was generally in pretty good shape. The thing is, is like, this is not an uncommon thing. Like people drown in Lake Erie pretty frequently. It's a, it's a great lake. It's a very big lake. And just as a little side anecdote, when I was a kid, we used to vacation on Catawba Island on Lake Erie. And every week, we would go there for a week every summer. And every time we went, I would have to wait on the beach, the first half of the week because somebody had drowned. And I was convinced that if I went in the water, they would, their dead body would bump up against me and I just couldn't even bear the thought of that. So finally I would watch the news every night. And finally, when they announced they found the missing person.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 10:46Josh Clark?

  Then I would start to go into the lake.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  And you thought, I won't run into that body now. I might become one, but it's worth the risk.

• 10:54Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, because no one had any business swimming in Lake Erie back when I was a kid.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  What do you, what's Catawba Island like? What do you do there?

• 11:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, you play mini golf and putt putt. We stayed at this place. It was just like a block of, like, I guess, little condos or apartments or something like that. And everybody had beach towels like drying over like the railing. And it was like on the beach, like the sand came up into your little front stoop. And it was just great. It was wonderful. I remember my oldest sister went on a date with a dude she met there and they went and saw Top Secret at the drive in.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  The vacation date? That's always great. Man, that's a nice, I love young Josh stories. All right, so they looked for Larry Bader for a couple of months. The Coast Guard was like, no one's gonna survive that storm if they don't have a life jacket. But they looked anyway. And they were also, were like, well, he was a strong swimmer, though, so it's a little weird that like, the boat wasn't that damaged and he's just nowhere to be found. Some people thought, you know, he had this big wad of cash. I don't think we said, but he cashed a $400 check. So if you do the math, you know, that's probably like 4,000 bucks. Lot of dough. So he may have been, you know, robbed and murdered or something. And also the suitcase was gone, so that could also explain that.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  But either way, they said, we just gotta put this one to rest. And so in 1960, he was declared dead. And his wife got that $40,000 insurance policy and social security started rolling in.

• 12:29Josh Clark?

  She went ka-ching.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  That's right. And I believe that's where we should take a break and see what happened to Larry Bader.

• 12:50Josh Clark?

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• 15:54Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, where we last left off, Larry Bader's missing. He's disappeared, but enough years have gone by, I think roughly three, that he's officially declared dead. His insurance policy has come in, his wife has said, "This is what you get for telling me maybe I will, maybe I won't, when I tell you not to go fishing."

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:15Josh Clark?

  And if we rewind just a little bit to the day that Larry Bader went out on the lake, and add, usually people say about three days, and zoom on over from Lake Erie over to Omaha, Nebraska.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:30Josh Clark?

  And we sit down at a little bar called The Round Table Bar in Omaha. What we will see on May 18, 1957, is a guy walk in, and his name is John Johnson. Take it, Chuck.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  That's right. Oh, I was so busy trying to work up a Saturn joke about that 800 miles, but I couldn't do it in time.

• 16:50Josh Clark?

  We'll wait. If you can, I'll give you an hour.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Eight hundred miles between Omaha and Akron, roughly one-third the size of the distance between, and then I couldn't remember what it was on Saturn.

• 17:03Josh Clark?

  The Cassini Division?

• 17:05Speaker 02

  The Cassini Division.

• 17:07Josh Clark?

  So, that's not a joke, that's making fun of my hard work.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  I know. Uh, so, here's what happens. Three days after Larry Bader disappears, eight hundred miles away, a dude shows up in Omaha at the Round Table Bar. You said his name was John Johnson. He said, "I got this driver's license here, it's got my name on it, and I was a fourteen year veteran of the Navy, it's a Navy license, as you'll see. I got out because of a bad back, and I go by the name Fritz." And there was a bartender there named Betty, who said he was a really well-dressed guy, he clearly had money, he was really sort of fascinating and charming. He asked me out, like, the second he met me.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Which is, I assume, what you do if you, uh, three days after you have left your wife and soon-to-be four kids.

• 17:54Josh Clark?

  Oh, well-

• 17:55Speaker 02

  You probably ask out the first woman you see.

• 17:56Josh Clark?

  Well, we haven't said it yet, but, okay. Uh, John Johnson bore a really striking resemblance to Larry Bader, also.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, didn't people see that coming?

• 18:06Josh Clark?

  I don't know, I mean, now they do.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Okay. So, this guy John Johnson, AKA Fritz, uh, gets a job, uh, not there, but at Ross's Steakhouse. And, basically, it was like, "Hey, I came from, uh, an orphanage in Boston, uh, there were twenty-two boys in this orphanage, they named us all John Johnson, and gave us all nicknames, so they could tell us apart, instead of just naming us different things." It's very strange. Uh, but they called me Fritz, because, uh, I reminded them of a character from a comic, the Cats and Jammer comic, uh, Cats and Jammer Kids comic. Um, it's different times during that period, he also, uh, would say that his Navy buddies thought his haircut made him look like a German soldier, so he went by Fritz.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  But either way, this is some new dude in town, and he was like, all of a sudden, the talk of Omaha.

• 18:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Betty Johnson's impression was not isolated. Apparently, people who met Fritz Johnson felt essentially the same way that she did, like, he was a cool dude that you wanted to be around, debonair, you could say, he, um, but he also was a bit of a character. And by a bit, let me just say that he bought a hearse- And rearranged the back so that it was like a little lounge area for him when he picked up women on dates. And I saw one place, but it was a legitimate source, like a contemporary newspaper article that said that it, he had somehow gotten it licensed with the city as

• 19:36Josh Clark?

  a hunting vehicle. Can you imagine anything more 1957 than that? 1957 bachelor?

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he was an avid hunter.

• 19:47Josh Clark?

  That is not what he was going for.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  You think is, I mean, I don't know.

• 19:54Josh Clark?

  Yes, you don't put a lounge area in the back of your hearse for dead deer.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  No, no, no, I know. But do you think he had it licensed as a hunting vehicle? Because like, he was hunting ladies and he just wanted to be able to tell people that?

• 20:06Josh Clark?

  Yes, I do.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  I don't agree.

• 20:12Josh Clark?

  Okay, that's fine. We'll take it up with UPI, buddy.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  He's an eccentric dude. He wears a leather beret. His apartment apparently was just a bunch of like beanbags and throw pillows. He had champagne parties. He had Siamese fighting fish. He was an archer. He said, you know, I hurt my back. And so archery really helps strengthen the back. And so I took up archery. And then five weeks later, he's won a state championship in Nebraska. And then wins 13, I believe 12 more, 13 total archery titles in the state. And at parties would do the eat the whole chicken, including the bone trick.

• 20:55Josh Clark?

  And the last three listeners went, oh.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  That's right. So he's, he's working at the bar, but he buddies up with a guy that works at a radio station, KBON. And he lets him come in there to kind of just monkey around because he was interested in broadcasting. And he's monkeying around enough to where he figures it out and deers himself like he seems to be doing to everybody, gets a job as a DJ, reading the news.

• 21:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I want to just backtrack a little bit and. Specifically say, there was nobody in any interview or any article that I read about this. Who seemed to think that Fritz Johnson was a creep. Or like a jerk, or like a sicko, or anything like that. I know we've kind of painted him. A little questionably, but there doesn't seem to be anybody who had any kind of like weird vibes from him at all. He was just a fun guy to be around. And just living up the bachelor life. Apparently, he was saying like, I spent, you know, my youth in an orphanage, having to listen to the people who. Ran the place, tell me what to do. I spent 14 years in the Navy, listening to them tell me what to do, and now I'm finally free. I'm living it up. So.

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  Um, that's essentially, I think, the best care, the best way to paint his character is that he was living it up, his newfound freedom.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Um, he, I mean, we can talk about some more of his flamboyance, just because it's simply really funny and interesting. When he wrote a personal check to someone, he would sign it Fritz only. And then he wouldn't put it in a date. I don't know why I love this so much. He wouldn't put a date, he would just put a season. So he would write a check to someone on the date of, you know, autumn. And then he would just sign it Fritz.

• 22:44Josh Clark?

  Isn't that weird that they would cash that?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Uh, well, it's the 1950s, I guess, stuff like that would happen. Uh, it was also the 1950s, so you could collect your tip money as a bartender. And a milk bottle, and then just go hand that milk bottle. To the uncounted, to the person working at the bank and fill out the deposit slip, uh, one quart of money. And I'm sure they thought, oh, he's such a character, but like, now I gotta count on this stuff. Thanks a lot, dude.

• 23:11Josh Clark?

  Every time he made that deposit, he'd think to himself, are you gonna withhold the milk deliveries, huh?

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:18Josh Clark?

  So, um, one of the other things that he was known for is being a little unkind to friends who were engaged or married or about to get married. He was like, marriage is just another way to trap a fella.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:30Josh Clark?

  Whoever gets married is a sap. Probably said something along those lines.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  That old thing.

• 23:35Josh Clark?

  And then a few years after he appeared in Omaha in 1961, he got married.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  Uh, he, uh, got married to a model named Nancy Zimmer, who was 21 at the time. And she had a daughter from her first marriage. She said later that they were just too young. And, um, not only did, uh, Fritz Johnson adopt their, her daughter, they also had their own son. So he had a family all of a sudden within just a couple of years.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, um, he's working part-time at the radio station, eventually works full-time there and then transfers over to TV when he got a job, uh, at, uh, KETV, uh, the local affiliate there, um, eventually getting promoted up to sports director. Uh, and also on the side, he was advising, um, like consulting, I guess, for archery companies because just, he was just so good at it.

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  And he's like, well, maybe consider making the arrows straight.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  I did some archery, uh, at the camp. We took a big family trip with a bunch of families and I got the archery set out and it was quite fun and I'm a pretty good shot.

• 24:39Josh Clark?

  Oh yeah? Any bullseyes?

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was hitting some bullseyes on the rag and I've never even done much archery. I just, uh, it just seems intuitive, you know, just kind of hold it steady and aim at the thing and then let it go.

• 24:49Josh Clark?

  You're like, I'm just as surprised as any of you.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  I really was.

• 24:53Josh Clark?

  How far away though? Are we talking like five feet?

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, I don't know what standard archery is. I was shooting, I bet from about,

• 25:02Speaker 02

  probably from about 35 feet would be my guess.

• 25:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, that, that is good, man.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  I don't know what standard is, but everyone's like, oh yeah, you come up here all the time and do this. I was like, I actually never do this. I'm just good at it.

• 25:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. You just have to say that out loud with every shot.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  I know. Like, don't, don't compliment me because you think I've worked at this.

• 25:20Josh Clark?

  Right. This is all blind luck.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 25:23Josh Clark?

  Speaking of blind luck, one of the other things that kind of made Fritz Johnson a noted character around town.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  And he looked at you.

• 25:33Josh Clark?

  Is that he ended up donning an eye patch. And he was one of those eye patch wearers who really needed one because they found a tumor behind his eye, I think his left eye. And to remove the tumor, they had to permanently remove his left eye. So he wore an eye patch, rather jauntily, from what I can tell. And that just made his legend even more. So like, one of the local beloved TV announcers now wears an eye patch with his little pencil thin mustache. And everybody just loves this guy so much.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Let me ask you something. Are you saying that there are people who wear eye patches just for attention that don't need them?

• 26:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, I've never met one, but yes, I'm sure those people are out there. That, I mean, they're the same people who wear glasses. That's how they start. It's the gateway drug is like wearing glasses that you don't actually work.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  You know that I did that. I know, are you throwing shade?

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  Well, you're just an eye patch wearer waiting to happen.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Oh, man. I hope someone writes in that knows somebody, or maybe that even did that for a time. If you did this in middle school, you get a pass. Like, it seems like something John Hodgman might have done in middle school.

• 26:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure, for sure. But yeah, also, not as a pirate. You can't be dressed as a pirate at the time.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 26:51Josh Clark?

  It has to be like, normal street clothes.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 26:55Josh Clark?

  That's the rules.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Should we take our break now?

• 26:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think there's no other place to take our second break on this.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  All right, we got another big reveal coming up right after this.

• 27:18Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on a truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 27:27Speaker 02

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• 27:40Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Here's a question for all you curious people. What's one thing you wish there was an app for? With Base44, you can build it yourself. It might be something simple like a tool for a task your team does every week. You want the steps, useful links, and everyone's progress in one place.

• 28:34Josh Clark?

  Well, with Base44, describe that in your own words. You don't need to know coding or programming. Then you just keep editing and refining it until it works exactly the way you want. Your build comes headache-free with built-in login, data storage backend, and hosting. So what's the app you wish existed?

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Try it free and upgrade when you're ready. Go to base44.com to get started.

• 29:03Josh Clark?

  Hey everybody, the best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on. Whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 29:20Speaker 02

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• 29:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories. And cut out the middlemen so you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com where you can get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  All right. So I promised a big reveal. Things are going great for old Fritzie. He's in a town. He's, he's scoring with the ladies in the back of a hearse. He's eating chickens through the bone and people think it's the best thing they've ever seen. He's on TV for goodness sakes with an eye patch.

• 30:38Josh Clark?

  Can I say one more thing about the chicken eating thing?

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, like how do you eat bones?

• 30:43Josh Clark?

  No, I mean, I can get that. If you cook a chicken enough, like it can be.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Just dissolve it sort of?

• 30:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, essentially. The thing is this, that's not a party trick that you do quickly. People have to stand around you for possibly dozens of minutes while you do this trick. So.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Everybody watch this.

• 31:01Josh Clark?

  Right. Stop what you're doing and come over and quietly watch me. Like it takes a real showman to hold people's interest while you're eating a whole chicken.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, the only party trick I ever did is that thing with the hat against the wall and that takes like two seconds.

• 31:17Josh Clark?

  Hmm. I don't know what that is.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Nah, you put a, like a baseball cap on backwards. And then you can kind of get up against a wall and then you act like you're blowing your cheeks out. And what you're doing is putting the brim against the wall such that the hat kind of levitates off your head, like you're blowing it off your head.

• 31:34Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's, I want to see that. Why have you never done that for me?

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Hey buddy, next time I see you, the only, I mean, I haven't done it for years because I refuse to put a baseball cap on backwards because I'm a human adult. But I'll do it for you.

• 31:47Josh Clark?

  Okay, thank you.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Okay. The guys out there with their hat on backwards right now are like, what's wrong? Is that not cool? It's like, no, it's not.

• 31:55Josh Clark?

  My only party trick was holding my breath until I fainted.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Did you ever do that?

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we used to do that where you'd hold your breath, like you bend over and hyperventilate yourself.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:06Josh Clark?

  And you take that last breath, cross your hands over your chest and your friend would just push as hard as they could on your chest and you'd just faint.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  I did it once and this is something you should not do. It's dangerous.

• 32:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I shouldn't have that tone of voice right now.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  What, like it was super fun?

• 32:22Josh Clark?

  It is very dangerous.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Did you ever actually pass out?

• 32:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did one time and that was the only time I had ever passed out up into that point and it was very, very strange.

• 32:29Josh Clark?

  It was very strange. I remember feeling like I was dropping in on a half pipe on a skateboard as I went down.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Oh, cool.

• 32:36Josh Clark?

  I was kind of like, this is all right. We didn't do it for very long.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, do not try this. It is such a bad idea. I can't believe we're even talking about it.

• 32:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we should probably edit this out.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:47Josh Clark?

  I'm sure Jerry will with her responsiveness.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  All right. So like I said, he's living his best life. Then on February 2nd, 1965, a guy who knew John Bader, disappeared man, saw Fritzy at an archery demonstration at a sporting goods show in Chicago and was like, that's Larry Bader. Like I would bet my life on it. And his niece lives nearby. And I know this, so I'm going to call her. She's 21 years old. Her name is Susanna. She drives over and she's like, Uncle Larry? Basically.

• 33:24Josh Clark?

  Pretty much. Yeah, her quote was, pardon me, but aren't you my Uncle Larry Bader who disappeared seven years ago?

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:31Josh Clark?

  And he was like, ho, ho, ho, no, I'm not. Go away. Actually supposedly he was super polite.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:38Josh Clark?

  But was quite insistent that they had the wrong person.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  He said, would you like to see my hearse?

• 33:43Josh Clark?

  But the, right. But the, um, the resemblance was enough that then Susanna turned around and called her uncles, Larry's brothers. And they, I think, got on the phone with this guy and his voice enough convinced them that they should fly out to Chicago. They flew out to Chicago. Suddenly this guy's like, man, I wish I didn't have to work. This convention, all these people are surrounding me and telling me I'm another person. And so to kind of settle the whole thing, he's like, how about this? Well, let's go get my fingerprints taken. And they were like, that's a capital idea because our brother was in the Navy too. So his records, his fingerprints will be on record. So they went to the local police department.

• 34:26Josh Clark?

  They took his fingerprints. They handed him over to the FBI. The FBI compared him to the Navy fingerprints on record of Larry Bader. And the FBI looked up and said, this is a perfect match.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  That's right. So Fritzie said it came as a literal physical shock. He said, I don't know anything about that other fellow. And he said, why would I have volunteered to give my fingerprint if like I was trying to get some scam new double life and new identity? Like I wouldn't have gotten fingerprinted. It seemed genuinely like he didn't know and didn't realize this. He's like, I've got all these memories. I remember the orphanage. I remember growing up as Fritz Johnson. You're saying these memories are all fake and this is really starting to bum me out, to be quite honest.

• 35:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Like if he knew he was hiding from his family and he was found at this sporting goods convention, he would have shot like a smoke bomb tipped arrow at the floor and then it vanished as the smoke just choked everyone out.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Oh, I could literally smell that. I was so in that scene.

• 35:37Josh Clark?

  But he didn't do that. And that is a really significant thing. Like he, so not only, remember, if he was Larry Bader, who had assumed a new identity, to agree to fingerprints is a dumb move to begin with, but he could have been calling a bluff or something like that. Who knows?

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Maybe, but he also didn't have, it wasn't like he had some awful family life, like everyone. By all accounts, he like, he liked his wife and kids and enjoyed being around them.

• 36:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  As much as any dad did in the 1950s. I'm not saying he was doting, but he wasn't like, oh, God, I hate these kids and my wife's a real drag.

• 36:18Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, it didn't make sense.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's a little, a little bit in debt, but it wasn't like his, his world was crumbling down around him, such that he had to escape. It was all debt that he could get out of with a little bit of work. So none of this was making any sense.

• 36:31Josh Clark?

  No, plus also one other thing, Chuck, if you're on the run in a new, with a new identity, usually the last thing you do is become a local TV personality in a largish city in the United States.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, let me, let me see if, the largest city, Omaha?

• 36:46Josh Clark?

  I said a largish.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Oh, I was like, oh, man, that's not what I know.

• 36:51Josh Clark?

  The largest city in Nebraska.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, so none of this is adding up. He, yeah, you would want to keep a low profile, so it doesn't make sense.

• 37:00Josh Clark?

  Well put. I think that was much more succinct than my whole jam.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  No, I liked it. The whole Omaha thing was great. So he hires an attorney, a guy named Harry Farnham. This attorney gets a team of psychologists on board. They examine Larry and test him along with the neurologist over about a week and a half. They use hypnosis on him. They're like, we can't see anything medically wrong with this guy. It doesn't seem like a scam. Back home, Mary is, or I'm sorry, Mary Lou is, she gets this news and she was like, oh, I mean, I'd kind of moved on with my life. I'm, I'm engaged to somebody new who I've been dating for a few years. But I can't, like, I'm a good Catholic. I'm not gonna, like, divorce Larry, who is, seems to be back in my life now.

• 37:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and initially she said that she wished he'd never been, he'd never turned up again, that they had gotten used to life without him. They'd accepted that he died. And yeah, she moved on. And now all of a sudden, her life, to say it was complicated is a real understatement. Like, a handful of people's lives were ruined. When that guy, the acquaintance of Bader, saw Fritz Johnson at that sporting goods convention, like ruined. Not only do you have like Mary Lou, Fritz slash Larry, Larry's wife Nancy, their kids. You also have like the the nameless fiance that was engaged to Mary Lou.

• 38:29Josh Clark?

  Like people's lives were completely upended by the news of this. And apparently, the whole time Fritz Johnson is like, this makes zero sense to me, but the FBI said that my fingerprints match this other guy and everybody else from Akron is telling me that I'm this other guy. I think I'm Fritz Johnson, but he was resign, he resigned himself to be like, maybe, maybe this is right. Maybe they're right. He wasn't just, he didn't deny it the whole time and he did not seem fishy at any point. He was also more than willing to talk to the press as this was going on, but he was not an attention hound.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, not at all. So Mary, all of a sudden, her life is upended with, you know, every regional news outlet is banging on her door. The insurance company was like, that 40 grand, which will be $400,000 in 2024, basically life-changing money. We're going to need that back. All those social security payments, we're going to need that back. Even Eddie and his boat rental company, it's like you owe us for boat damages. Johnson, Fritzie, you know, he loses that job. The TV station fires him. He gets that marriage annulled. He moves into a YMCA. He starts working at the bar again, making a hundred bucks a week. And he's sending money to Mary Lou

• 39:50Speaker 02

  and Nancy, and I think keeping about, what, like 70 or 30 bucks for himself to live on. And it's just, it's upheaval everywhere you look.

• 39:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. So a few months later, it's funny that she waited a few months. Mary Lou took her four kids and they went to meet him in Chicago, I guess like a neutral city. And they spent the weekend together and she told the press later that she was like, he was a great guy, good with the kids, but we're strangers to him. So it was a bit of an awkward weekend, essentially. Um, the thing is, is she didn't really have a choice now, like she was a Catholic. Like you said, she didn't believe in divorce and now her husband was all of a sudden back. So she has to figure out how to work him back into her life and their kids' lives as minimally disruptive as possible. And she's just completely just lost.

• 40:44Josh Clark?

  By this time Nancy also, she is, she was saying, you know, I'm going to stand by my husband Fritz. Um, at, at some point she even said, I'm willing to go back to work to help pay Mary Lou child support if, if he's going to stay with me, but it just did not, it didn't work out as well. So Nancy took her kids and kind of went back into the, the background to leave Fritz to deal with this whole Akron thing.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, the whole Akron thing. Yeah. I mean, and his kids, I don't think we mentioned their ages. They were two, four, six and unborn when he disappeared. So maybe that six year old has a memory. The, the others probably had not even any memory of former dad.

• 41:25Josh Clark?

  Right. So again, he's not, he's not denying this. He's saying, I don't get this. This doesn't make sense to me, but he's not like, he stopped denying it after the fingerprint thing, but not like a, oh, you caught me kind of thing. He seemed genuinely baffled by this. Um, there's a really good kind of like, one of the authoritative articles on this whole thing that was written by the Akron Beakerin Journal in September of 1965.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Beacon?

• 41:53Josh Clark?

  Be- beacon, what did I say?

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Akron Beakerin.

• 41:56Josh Clark?

  Oh, the Akron Beacon Journal. I say it like a local.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:02Josh Clark?

  And it's funny because the journalist who wrote this clearly had just read Hell's Angels by Hunter Thompson.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 42:09Josh Clark?

  He was trying his hand at it.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 42:11Josh Clark?

  So like the whole, the whole thing starts in this, this jet flight that he's on, on his way to Omaha. Ends on the jet flight too. And like he's talking about them walking through the town to the YMCA. It's just like he, he wrote himself into this, this article. It was just kind of funny to see.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  The drugs started to kick in around Barstow.

• 42:31Josh Clark?

  Right. But, um.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  What are you doing in Barstow?

• 42:34Josh Clark?

  Right. But there was a quote in there that stood out to me that Fritz Johnson told this guy. He said, I've begun to think that God might solve the problem. And it turns out he was right because a year later he died from cancer.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Wow. I did not see that quote. Uh, here's just the tip. Don't, I'm not a big superstitious guy, but if you believe stuff like that, don't say it out loud.

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  Right. You don't want to tempt God to kill you.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  No, cause he'll do it just for laughs.

• 43:02Josh Clark?

  Just to show you who's boss.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Uh, September 16th, 1966 is when he died. Uh, did you say it was the tumor?

• 43:10Josh Clark?

  No, I said cancer. He, he, it moved to his liver, I think.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, that tumor, um, came back, passed away. Uh, first Methodist Omaha had a memorial for him. Uh, then he was transported back to Akron, buried in his family plot. And now, uh, how many of these explanations do you want to go over? Cause I almost feel like we should just skip to the, the one that you dug up. That sounds the most plausible to me.

• 43:37Josh Clark?

  I agree, wholeheartedly. There's just one other thing I want to say about his two funerals. In Omaha, the funeral was given for Fritz Johnson. In Akron, the funeral was given for Larry Bader. But it was the same body they moved from one city to the other.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:51Josh Clark?

  I think that's cool.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  That is super cool and a nice little footnote. Um, but like we said, there were, there were some, some theories that don't seem to hold water about different kinds of amnesia. Uh, but then you did some digging and then I went back and did some further digging once you gave me what you dug. And it seems like a lot of people on the internet, and of course, these are internet people. So it's not like, like, science isn't studying this. It's just sort of one of those things that's left to smart people on Reddit. But what the, the general consensus seems to be on the internet is that he suffered from what is known as a dissociative fugue, which is a very strange syndrome in which you can have very, very sudden,

• 44:36Speaker 02

  really significant retrograde memory loss that can't be attributed to like, uh, being hit on the head really hard or something like other kinds of amnesia can be explained away in other ways. And this one can't.

• 44:50Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. Fugue state. I mean, it's basically like they are describing what happened to him. But the, essentially what happens is you get, you have this amnesia, but it wipes out your episodic memory, your biographical memory, and to the point where you accidentally inadvertently move away from home, depending on how long it lasts, you're going to travel fairly far away from home. When you get to where you're going, you're going to set up a new life, the new identity, make new relationships, and you're not going to have any memory whatsoever of the life that came before this. That's a fugue state and apparently it is actually real. I looked all over for like, like fake, this is made up, this is not correct.

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  Like this is a, a crackpot theory that some psychologist came up with. No, dissociative fugue is a widely accepted, very, very rare medical condition that they do not know how to explain. There's a struggle between neurology and psychology or psychiatry. Like, is it brain based or is it like a break from some traumatic experience? And apparently it usually is prompted by some negative experience, but it's not something like seeing your family killed. It can be something like being $2,400 in 1957 dollars in debt and stressed out from that.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Or, I mean, here's what I think. I think it could, that whole boat trip and fishing expedition was just on the level, and that's really just what he was doing. He had all that cash and the briefcase, the suitcase, because maybe he just didn't want to keep that stuff in the car. And he went out in a really bad storm and had a traumatic event happen out there, like maybe being tossed overboard. I think that could have been the stressful event. So that's one thing. Another thing, too, is when this disassociative fugue ends, you will probably remember your real life, but you're not going to remember what happened in the fugue state. My explanation there is that he died of a tumor, so that might have happened to him given enough time.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  And he just died before that memory of the real life came back to him.

• 47:02Josh Clark?

  So I guess, kind of what you're saying is he died in a fugue state? Like, he never emerged from the fugue state, huh?

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's my theory.

• 47:10Josh Clark?

  Okay. I think that's a pretty good theory, actually. I mean, it does seem like he was not malingering, he was not faking, this was not a con. It's a just genuine mystery. Because also, like, he just checks so many boxes for a fugue state, but it's just, it usually goes on for, what, weeks or months, right? Not years.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  I don't, that's what I don't know.

• 47:32Josh Clark?

  That's what I saw.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 47:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah. But in that time, you're so convinced of your new identity that you can form relationships that now, all of a sudden, are jeopardized around the rocks because you don't remember these people anymore, and you're like, what am I doing in Omaha?

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, when did he die? 1966? And when?

• 47:52Josh Clark?

  1965.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it was only like a year.

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  I mean, that seems plausible, for what little I know about it.

• 48:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, hopefully, we figure out more about fugue states, because then we'll understand a little more about Larry Bader and... If, if we don't, then we're, we're never going to know what happened. Like, it's just a mystery.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, this could, I was wondering if this could be a movie, if there's enough there. Uh, and then I decided it probably couldn't be a movie, but it could be like, probably like a 10-part Netflix show.

• 48:24Josh Clark?

  A 10-hour-long movie.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:26Josh Clark?

  With, with tons and tons of archery montages.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Oh, man, so many.

• 48:31Josh Clark?

  Uh, so you got anything else about Larry Bader?

• 48:34Speaker 02

  I got nothing else. Thanks to Olivia. This is a interesting one.

• 48:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, thanks a lot. How'd you hear about this? I meant to ask you that.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  I am convinced, I, I know that this came from a listener, but I could not find it anywhere in email. So I don't think it did, actually. I think I might've just been searching for like, you know, kind of crazy stories or something.

• 48:52Josh Clark?

  Or it came to you in a fugue state.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Hmm, maybe, maybe I'm not even Chuck Bryant.

• 48:57Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck seems like he's having an autobiographical crisis right now, and that, of course, unlocks listener mail.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm gonna call this rare shout-out. Uh, we don't really give shout-outs on listener mail because we get inundated with people saying like, "Hi, can you say my sister's name?" Um, but we're gonna grant this one because it is for a Nana, and we like to honor the Nanas of the world.

• 49:21Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's sweet.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Uh, hey, guys, hope this message finds you well. I'm reaching out to request a shout-out for Nana, my Nana. She's such a huge fan of you both. Every time I call, she always mentions your show. And you would think you guys are family members. Uh, if you get into her car, the Bluetooth speaker automatically starts playing an episode.

• 49:39Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Uh, your show has brought her so much joy over the years and kept her sharp at the age of 81, and has given us something to connect over, uh, because Nana's high praise has got me hooked as well.

• 49:50Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Uh, for the last few years, she's always dreamed of going to one of your live shows, but it's never worked out. Uh, now with her age, it would be difficult for her to travel to any future potential shows. Uh, my Nana is the most important person in my life, and I know it would mean the world to hear a message from you guys. Uh, it might be a shot in the dark, but I thought I would try. Thanks for your time and for considering the request. And that is from Nori Schalls, uh, or Schallas, I'm not sure how you pronounce it. But Nana, we just want to say thank you and you're great and we appreciate you. And I'm not sure where you live, maybe either you or your, or Nori can write in and we can find out kind of how close you are and, and get you to a show somehow. Maybe we'll go

• 50:36Speaker 02

  do one at your house or something.

• 50:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. A show in Nana's living room.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  That'd be fun.

• 50:42Josh Clark?

  Especially if it's in Omaha. I've always wanted to see beautiful Omaha.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Wouldn't that be something?

• 50:47Josh Clark?

  Well, thanks a lot, Nana. Thank you very much for not only listening to us all this time, but also for turning Nori on to us. That's pretty great stuff. And if you want to be like Nori and tell us about your awesome grandparent, we want to hear about them. You can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom and send it off via email to [email protected].

• 51:09Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 51:19Josh Clark?

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