The Battle of the Sexes

Back in 1973 a male chauvinist played tennis against champion Billie Jean King. This is that story. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:38Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:48Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck. It's just the two of us, and that's great, because I'll be playing the role of Billie Jean King, and Chuck's going to play the role of male chauvinist pig Bobby.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 2:01Josh Clark?

  Take it, Chuck.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Hey, before we get going on this one, I have a quick shout out. And this is coming out a couple of days after I did this because we're cutting it so close because of our week off last week, but that makes me happy because I was asked, a friend of mine's son, his name is Royce, he is a student, a junior at Midtown High School here in Atlanta.

• 2:23Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  And he has a teacher, Ms. Smolko, who is a long time Stuff You Should Know listener. And when Royce told Ms. Smolko, like, hey, I know that guy, we're buddies, we go to Hawks games together. She kind of flipped out and was like, oh, my God, I wonder if like, would he be interested in, in helping us out with our podcast program?

• 2:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, cool.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  And they set it up via email and I spent yesterday, which was in our world, Monday, at Midtown High School, addressing the junior class, about 200 kids. And I gotta say, man, it was an incredible experience. The students were into it, they were engaged, they had great questions, they had great answers. They were, you know, a lot of it was sharing, you know, what they're doing with this podcast project, which is based off of like Stuff You Should Know style stuff.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Neat.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  Which was super cool, like these real philosophical questions that they're digging into and taking opposite sides and debating and they were seeking advice and it was just, it was an incredible experience and I just, I left like on a real high about Gen Z and like where our future is headed and it was just awesome.

• 3:39Josh Clark?

  Great. So the, the broad strokes are Gen Z got chuck high yesterday.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, they got me super high. It was really cool. They were all just amazing kids and Ms. Smolko was wonderful and, and the other teacher, I think his name was Alex, I can't remember his last name, but he was super nice and they were just like hats off to these teachers.

• 4:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  What's going on in the, at least at Midtown High School is, is amazing and I just left feeling great. It was awesome.

• 4:08Josh Clark?

  I think Royce is getting an A.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  You know, Royce wasn't even there. He's he's a does like a late arrival thing because of like work, study or something.

• 4:18Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  And so I was like, dude, I text him. It's like, where were you? And he explained the whole deal like that. He's not even allowed in school till later. So.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  They won't let him in, huh?

• 4:26Speaker 02

  It was just one of those things.

• 4:27Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  But everyone was super nice and it was just, it was, it was so cool to see how into it. Everybody was.

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  That's awesome. Well, way to go, Chuck.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Oh, and real quick, there were a couple of students. I won't name them. I have permission to name Royce because he's a pal, but there were two legitimate, um, big time stuff. You should know listeners in the junior class that came up after and said hello. And they were both like, really, really nice.

• 4:47Josh Clark?

  Awesome. Shout out thing one and thing two.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 4:51Josh Clark?

  Way to go, Chuck. You were basically a teacher for that moment.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  I kind of felt that way. It's like, maybe one day when I retire, I'll just like go and teach for real.

• 4:59Josh Clark?

  I'll let you borrow my tweed jacket with the, um, the suede elbow matches.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  The, the don't be dumb jacket?

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Wow, that's, that's a big deal.

• 5:08Josh Clark?

  You have to overlook all the stains on it.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  All right.

• 5:11Josh Clark?

  So, uh, we are talking about the battle of the sexes today.

• 5:18Josh Clark?

  Which I guess, I mean, this is a tough act to follow after your story, frankly.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  No, this is a great, fun sort of pop culture, history, story and sports story. There was a, a movie about it just a handful of years ago, starring Steve Carell as Bobby Riggs. And Emma Stone as Billie Jean King, uh, where they portrayed the very famous tennis match between a male chauvinist pig and aging, over the hill hustler, tennis star that, uh, you know, basically came out and said, you know what? Men are better at women than everything and an old me can beat a young, uh, champion in Billie Jean King. And let's do it on national TV at the Houston Astrodome in front of a ton of people.

• 6:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And that's what happened. The end.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:08Josh Clark?

  So this was a really big deal. I mean, it sounds like, um, Just kind of lighthearted, maybe a bit of a joke. This actually still happens today. There are Battle of the Sexist Tennis matches.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  This was the first one and it was a very big deal for everyone involved. On the one hand, you had Bobby Riggs, like you said, over the hill. He was 55 and he was trying to, he was, right.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  55 in two weeks.

• 6:37Josh Clark?

  He was, oh, that's right. The Ides of March are coming up.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. Yeah. So over the hill. I get it.

• 6:43Josh Clark?

  Okay, yes. Although 55 in 1973 was a lot different than 55 now, right?

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I don't look like Bobby Riggs.

• 6:51Josh Clark?

  But he, he was over the hill, not just necessarily because of his age. He'd just been so far out of tennis for so long. He was an attention hound and he wanted to get back in the spotlight. So for him, this was a gambit. It was a lot of work to do it, but it was something he was trying to do. On the other side was Billie Jean King, who was, takes, who took this very seriously because to her, this was symbolic of women's rights, which she was a tireless fighter for, not just before this, but after, for essentially her whole life, still today.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. She's great. Love Billie Jean King.

• 7:26Josh Clark?

  She's a, she's a hero.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Bobby Riggs, we'll, we'll talk about him in depth.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  We're not going to make excuses for the guy, but I will say Billie Jean King remained very good friends with him and never came out and said like, you know, I mean, when they were going at it, she was kind of playing him up as a male chauvinist pig, which he was.

• 7:44Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  But she would end up saying like Bobby Riggs was, was a, a man of his time and sort of a victim of being a man of his time. So she kind of went easy on him. I'm not sure I'm going to go so easy on him.

• 7:56Josh Clark?

  Well, I saw, I saw in places that there's, it's questionable whether he actually like even believed most of the stuff he was saying, that all, again, all this was a gambit. He figured out a really good way to get media attention was to just be like the, the most loud mouthed, chauvinist pig, just saying the most offensive stuff and becoming loathsome to women. That this would, this would just generate more buzz and more hype for what he was trying to do. Which, I mean, just doing that is a jerk move, but it's, it's not, it's not set in stone that he was. Someone who actually harbored these feelings personally. So you've got to bear that in mind while we're, we're telling this story. Cause a lot of people don't realize that.

• 8:39Josh Clark?

  Like, like anti feminists, a lot of men don't realize it. And a lot of feminists don't realize it. They took it, everything he was doing very seriously. But like you said, Billie Jean King didn't, which is a huge signal right there.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and, and I just hit, this just hit my brain. If I'm going to go hard on Bobby Riggs, then I also need to do the same to Andy Kaufman and his whole wrestling shtick. Which I think is one of the great funny kind of comedy bits, but that was kind of the same thing. Like playing a role to get women riled up to get attention.

• 9:15Josh Clark?

  Well, really, if we learned anything from this battle of sexist tennis matches, if you're going to go hard on Bobby Riggs, you need to go hard on Billie Jean King.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Should we go back to the early seventies and set the stage?

• 9:28Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  All right. Early 1970s was, uh, it was a pretty volatile time. It was a big time for women to start kind of standing up for real and saying like, hey, we, we want attention, we want rights, we want the same rights as men. Roe v. Wade was decided in 73. The Equal Rights Amendment was all over the news. In the case of sports, certainly 1972 with Title IX of the Education Amendments Act. That required schools to offer girls and women the opportunities to basically get equal funding and participate equally in athletics. As boys and men.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  So it was a, uh, it was a big time for women's advocacy and feminism and women's rights between like 19, and you know, certainly before that, but definitely between 1970 and like 1975.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And just as an aside, we did, if I may say so, a pretty good episode on the Equal Rights Amendment in 2021 called, Why Is The ERA Still Not Ratified?

• 10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is true.

• 10:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So, um, yeah, it was a big time. There's a lot of momentum for women's lib for feminism. Uh, it was also a, a big time for tennis, which was becoming really, really popular, especially in the United States. The number of Americans who played tennis tripled from 1970 to 1974. And one of the reasons why is because, um, the, the tennis world started, um, holding opens. I never knew this before, but the US Open, the Australian Open, the reason they're called opens because they're open to all players. You can be an amateur, you can be a pro and you can compete in this, um, these tournaments, an open tournament. That was brand new. I think Wimbledon was the first one to start it, I think in 1968.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  So a lot of really freaky, exciting stuff's going on in the world.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  That's right. Uh, Billie Jean King was, and we should also point out that, you know, as far as wage disparity. Uh, in 1968, uh, if you were a professional tennis player, you earned two to three times as much as a woman. Um, and when the sport grew, that gap actually grew. It didn't get, um, more narrow, which is, was pretty startling at the time. Uh, but Billie Jean King was born in 1943 and by the time this event, uh, rolled around, she was huge. Um, she had won 10 Grand Slam titles by 73. Uh, she was a number one ranked tennis player six different times. Um, in 1970 or by 1973, uh, was the 1972 Sports Illustrated Sports Person of the Year.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  And like you said, was a real feminist activist kind of from the jump. Uh, I think there was a story from when she was a kid, when she was 11 or 12, a, a junior player, she was not allowed to be in a, in a photo, like a tournament photo. Because she wasn't wearing the tennis skirt. She was wearing shorts and they said, you can't be in this picture. And immediately little 12 year old Billie Jean King was like, what the hell?

• 12:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. She was like, these are scorts. They said, that doesn't count.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Right. That's not a thing yet.

• 12:31Josh Clark?

  So, uh, yeah, and one thing about Billie Jean King from a bunch of stuff I read and saw about her is that like, she's, uh, she was tireless.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:41Josh Clark?

  And still, she's a tireless activist for women's rights. Like, she didn't ever slow down. And when you kind of learn about all the side stuff she did to promote women in tennis and women's rights in general, um, like, on top of that, bear in mind, she's one of the top tennis players in the world by dominating in tennis. So that takes a lot of practice, a lot of dedication, and she's doing all this other stuff at the same time. So she's like basically the definition of tireless.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she was, she was doing this in the 1960s because all those accomplishments I mentioned was by 73. But in 1966, she was the number one women's tennis player in the world, and she was making a hundred dollars a week as a playground instructor at Los Angeles State College. So the money the athletes were making was not anything like it is today, and it was way, way worse for women. Uh, I think that first open you mentioned at Wimbledon in 68, uh, she won, she won that tournament and won 750 pounds. Uh, Rod Laver, the men's champion, won 2,000 pounds.

• 13:47Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  And she was like, in 68, she was like, this is totally unfair. What's going on?

• 13:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and money comes up a lot. Um, it was, the reason why is it's an easy shorthand to basically point out women's, um, lesser treatment compared to men.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:02Josh Clark?

  Uh, it's also something that most people can just kind of wrap their minds around, like, yeah, 750 pounds is a lot less than 2,000 pounds, but they're both the champions? Why, that doesn't make any sense. So money is a big focus throughout this, but it's not just because everybody wants money, you know?

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. Uh, so in 1970, uh, Billie Jean King, uh, was like, we need to do something sort of official and sort of big here. So she looked to a woman named Gladys Heldman, who was the founder of World Tennis Magazine. Uh, she was a very big prominent, uh, figure in the tennis world overall.

• 14:38Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Um, obviously because of World Tennis and also because she was, uh, at the time, the mother of a very high-ranked player named Julie Heldman. That was her daughter. So she was a good person to go to, and they said, here's what we can do to make a splash. Um, there's a tennis tournament coming up called the Pacific Southwest Open in LA. Where they're paying the, the prize purse for the men's champion is 12,500. The purse for the women's champion is $1,500, which, I mean, looking back at the Wimbledon disparity, that wasn't too bad compared to this, you know?

• 15:10Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Uh, and this was even after that. And they said, why don't we boycott this tournament? And Gladys Heldman said, you know what? Why don't we start our own tournament that competes with this tournament? And everyone went, oh, this sounds exciting.

• 15:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So, yeah, that was a huge step beyond what they were originally thinking of. And so, um, the US Tennis Association, at the time they were called the US Lawn Tennis Association, also to, um, they were like, hey, go ahead and try that, but we are going to suspend you. We might ban you from tournament, tournament play. We're going to erase your rankings. Like, it's going to be a bad jam if you guys go off and form your own tournament. And that, it took a lot of bravery because not all women tennis players signed on for this. In fact, only nine, including Billie Jean King, said, you know what? We're going to go do this anyway. Uh, and so they signed contracts with Heldman.

• 16:06Josh Clark?

  And so they became pros on this other tour, which protected them from getting, um, punished on the US LTA tour. Um, and they started their own championship, which eventually was, um, I think, supported and sponsored by Virginia Slims cigarettes.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. Uh, and we should mention that contract was for a dollar each. So they, they clearly were doing this to, to make a statement and not to make a ton of money.

• 16:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Um, but Philip Morris, yeah, they stepped in because they, there was a recent federal ban on advertising on TV and radio for cigarettes. And so they said, we gotta get our name out there somewhere. So let's call this the, you know, we've got these Virginia Slims with its quasi feminist message. You've come a long way, baby. That was their ad slogan for a long time.

• 16:51Josh Clark?

  Long time.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  And tennis, the, you know, the original nine is what they were called, those tennis players that, that went along, or the eight that went along with Billie Jean King and said, they were like, yeah, I mean, we're athletes. It's a little weird to have a cigarette sponsor, but we need a sponsor, so we'll take it. And that tournament went over really well and it was so successful that they said, "Hey, why don't we start our own circuit?" And they had the Virginia Slim Circuit. There were eight more tournaments that they sponsored. And the original nine, you know, they initially did follow through with their threat to like, ban them, the US LTA, yeah, US LTA at the time. But they said, "Oh, actually, they're doing so well over there. We're in trouble now, so we need to join forces."

• 17:34Speaker 02

  And they gave up and they merged with the Virginia Slim events.

• 17:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I'm not usually one to defend tobacco producers, but I saw a PBS, I think, American Masters clip that was interviewing some of the original nine. And they were like, Virginia Slims showed up, like, they knew how to market, they knew how to get buzz, they put a ton of money behind advertising and like, they, this was not like a, just a whatever thing to them. They were actually a really great sponsor for this. So, yeah, they, yes, these nine women, and I think eventually more, joined. They were, they were like, "If you won't include us, we're just gonna go create our own thing." Like, they worked at it like that and it actually paid off in ACES.

• 18:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Hey, you want to take a break?

• 18:27Josh Clark?

  Hey, yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be back right after this.

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• 21:58Speaker 02

  All right. So where we left off, the original nine went off and formed their own Virginia Slim Circuit. They were, you know, endangered the US LTA such that they partnered with them eventually. But money started flowing in a little bit. In 1971, Billie Jean King was the first female athlete of any sport at all to make more than $100,000. A lot of money in $1971. Still a lot less than her peers on the male side of the equation. And so she was still, you know, banging that drum. She wasn't like, all right, our work is done. And in 1973, before Wimbledon that year, she got together in London, where Wimbledon is, in a hotel room with 63, I guess it was probably a large meeting room.

• 22:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  63 other women tennis players. And they said, all right, we're doing this today. We're going to form the WTA, the Women's Tennis Association. We're going to have an actual union in place where we can, you know, do what unions do and stick up for ourselves.

• 23:00Josh Clark?

  Yes. They threatened to boycott, like, pretty much immediately after they formed the WTA. They said that they were going to boycott the US Open if we don't get equal prize money for women and men. And I believe that was successful. They got the US Open to agree. And it was, this is like, things are moving along for women's equality in tennis at this time, right? So it's a huge focus of conversation with tennis.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it was all over the media. Everywhere you looked, it was about sort of equal pay, equal rights. And that was in the regular world. And all of a sudden, it was now like in the sports world in a big way.

• 23:40Josh Clark?

  Well put.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  So now we can talk a little bit about our, I'm gonna put it in scare quotes, our villain, Mr. Bobby Riggs, who was, I tell you what, man, I mean, if you, it is very Andy Kaufman-esque. If you watch interviews with this guy, if he's nothing, he is entertaining.

• 23:59Josh Clark?

  For sure. He was a true great tennis player at one time, shortly after World War II. I think he was the number one men's player in 1946 and 1947. And not just from like December to January, like both of those years.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 24:17Josh Clark?

  So he had, you know, the goods to back up like this. It wasn't just some dude who had a tennis racket. But after the late 40s, he essentially like left the tour and he started hustling and taking bets from essentially anybody who would play him in tennis pool.

• 24:41Josh Clark?

  I think you saw a 60 Minutes clip where he was gambling on throwing cards into a wastebasket. Like he would bet on anything. There is a quote in that 60 Minutes clip where he said, "He likes to play for big money. If he can't play for big money, he'll play for small money. If I can't play for small money, I won't get out of bed that day." Like that's just what that guy did. He gambled, he hustled, and he was known as a loudmouth too. But he also seems to be fairly loved, essentially. He was like one of those people that you just kinda, you couldn't help but like, even though, yeah, he was a loudmouth and trying to get you to bet him some money.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was a troll. Livia called him a pre-internet troll, and that's exactly what he was. It seemed like a bit of an act and a bit of a shtick to get attention, like we said. But he would say things, you know, "A woman's place is in the kitchen and the bedroom", and not necessarily in that order, or "Women play 25% as good as men, so they should get 25% of the money men get." I was reading, I think it was a... Oh, was it Esquire or something, an article about him? And the whole idea of playing Billie Jean King was birthed when I think a reporter was just talking to him about, you know, can men beat women or who could beat Billie Jean King in tennis?

• 26:02Speaker 02

  And he said, I think any guy in the top 100 could beat Billie Jean King. And he went, in fact, I think I could beat her. And that's sort of when he seemed to hatch this idea for publicity and money.

• 26:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was like, oh, but there's good action there.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 26:17Josh Clark?

  He, um, so, yeah, so like he said, these things actually, at least one of those quotes is from one of his autobiographies.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:25Josh Clark?

  So like he wrote this stuff down. He wasn't, this wasn't just stuff he started saying when he decided to play Billie Jean King. He was already known as a male chauvinist. But yes, he was a, um, an attention hound. And this is again, a way that he figured out how to do this. So he, he, he started publicly challenging Billie Jean King. He's like in his mid 50s. She's in her late twenties prime and she's like, no, that's okay. I'm too busy. And again, remember like she was genuinely tireless organizing the Virginia Slim Circuit and like creating the Women's Tennis Association, all the while, winning all of these championships and grand slams. So she had a legitimate excuse, like I'm too busy.

• 27:06Josh Clark?

  The, the thing is, is there was also like a case you could make that she saw very clearly, like, I don't know if I have that much to gain by playing this and I have a lot to lose for the women's movement. I could easily set it back if I lose. So there was, she had good reason to kind of avoid this as long as she could.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, it's sort of a lose, lose proposition for her. If she beats him, everyone's like, oh, of course she beat this old man.

• 27:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Uh, and that's how he probably would have played it up as, and well, we'll see what happened. But, uh, and if she loses, that's of course like, looks terrible to be beaten by the old man.

• 27:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  So she was wise to avoid it, I think. But there was another woman, uh, in fact, she was the. Uh, I think she was the number one player in the world, a women's player in 1973 named Margaret Court. Uh, and Ozzy. And she was like, she wasn't super active in the politics of women's sports. And she was like, yeah, sure. I'll play him. Um, she stepped right up and in May of 1973, uh, this was in San Diego or outside San Diego. They played a three set match. Were $10,000 and about 10 million people. A lot of people tuned into this first one on CBS. Uh, 3,500 people were there live. And he beat her. He beat her 6-2, 6-1 by playing. Hmm. I want to say a certain thing, but I can't.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  He, he was playing like a punk.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  He's playing junk shots and like drop shots and he wasn't playing like sort of real tennis. He was playing sort of joke tennis. And when you're playing against a player that can hit aggressive, strong shots and you're just plunking them over the net. Like it's gonna, you can't play tennis that way. If you're a real player and it threw, it threw her off her game. She got in his head. I think the moment was a little too big for her. I don't think she realized how much attention there was going to be. And she ended up getting beat pretty badly.

• 28:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He got in her head, right?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:58Josh Clark?

  So yes, it's called the Mother's Day massacre because it was held on Mother's Day. And I mean, it was really bad, but there's a point that I want you to hang on to for later. As much of a punk as he played, he didn't play actual serious tennis. He was playing jokey tennis to win. He took that, that match very seriously. He trained for months ahead of time. He was playing or training like 10 to 12 hours a day, every day. Um, he really trained and by the time he was, by the time the game came around, he knew he was going to beat Margaret Court. So just keep that in mind, how hard he trained for that. Okay?

• 29:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also, uh, we should point out like at the very beginning of that match to open it up. He presented her with a bouquet of roses and she curtseyed back to him. And Billie Jean King is watching this just like. You know furious inside like she's like, ah, he's played and she in fact said later that she played right into his hands there and I would have grabbed him and kissed him. Uh, if he gets dirty, I can get tough too. So she hated the fact that Margaret Court went out there and sort of curtseyed to him and took the roses and, and then lost on, on national TV, I guess international TV. And so she was like, all right, you know what? I'm, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna step up and I'm gonna, I'm gonna play Bobby Riggs. It's my turn.

• 30:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So she agreed to do this and it became immediately buzz worthy, I guess is what you would call it if you're into that kind of thing.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  That's right. The libber versus the lubber is how they dubbed it.

• 30:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So like I said, it's immediately generating buzz. Bobby Riggs starts giving television interviews to any camera that will stand still long enough. And he's a magnet for that kind of stuff because again, he's a loud mouth. He's saying horrible things about women. He's accepting like the male chauvinist pig moniker, like with pride or whatever.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  And he's just like one of those, like he would talk a mile a minute. He had so much energy. He was just a little, a little kind of squirrely guy, kind of like

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:00Josh Clark?

  Richard Simmons. Did you ever see Richard Simmons when he would go on Letterman?

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  Okay. So

• 31:06Speaker 02

  It was great.

• 31:07Josh Clark?

  The way that Letterman kind of regarded Richard Simmons affectionately, but also like this guy's, he's moving around a lot.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:14Josh Clark?

  It was, he was like that, but amped up on like speed essentially. So he was a magnet for cameras and he was giving interviews all over the place.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. And he was also, you know, he's adding hype for the event, obviously by saying things like, uh, you know, she's a woman, they don't have the emotional stability, she'll choke. Uh, he added more stakes. He said that he would jump from, uh, the London Bridge in Arizona or the Pasadena Bridge if he lost. And, you know, he was all over the place. He was on the cover of Time Magazine that year in September. It was a caricature of him wearing a male chauvinist badge. And then there was a picture of a pig and a banner that said, "The Happy Hustler." So it was all working exactly as he planned. But Billie Jean King, like, if he took that first match seriously, he didn't take this one as seriously. And Billie Jean King was really taking it seriously.

• 32:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm not sure if he was just, you know, resting on his laurels because of how badly he beat Margaret Court, that he just assumed that that was going to translate into playing Billie Jean King. But he did not train nearly as much as he did for Billie, for Margaret Court. Essentially, he was out partying in the lead up to all of this. He was also really, really getting more and more offensive as, as things went on, right?

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Oh, you're gonna leave this one for me?

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of the things he did was he showed up to practice one day with the cameras there with holes cut out in his shirt so his nipples could show. And he said that Billie Jean King would look better in this. And she came out in public and she was like, "This guy is a, is a creep," which was, you know, about as tough as you could be in, in language back then.

• 32:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he was-

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Publicly.

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  And it was at a press conference with them together. And he said, "Well, you should take that back." And she said, "Nope, creep stands."

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:05Josh Clark?

  And she said later, I saw in an interview, she said that, like, she didn't take him seriously, but she knew that there were men out there that took him seriously and that he had crossed the line. And she needed to make sure that, that, that was, demonstrated that she was not okay with that one.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think she kind of played it all just right. It was really pretty savvy stuff on her end.

• 33:25Josh Clark?

  For sure. So I say we take, is this our second break?

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, second break.

• 33:30Josh Clark?

  All right. So the gun is gonna go off when we come back.

• 33:44Josh Clark?

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• 33:54Speaker 02

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• 34:07Josh Clark?

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• 34:22Speaker 02

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• 34:47Speaker 02

  Hey, everyone. Let's play a quick game. When I say Carnival Cruise, what are the first things that come to mind? Maybe a buffet? Maybe a lively Lido deck? Or maybe you've already decided cruising just isn't for you. But hear us out because the Carnival Cruise isn't what you think.

• 35:02Josh Clark?

  Let's start with the dining. From casual favorites at Guy Fieri's Burgers to elevated cuisine at Fahrenheit 555 Steakhouse. There's something for every craving.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  That's right. Then there's their comedy club, featuring real comedians, real laughs, and shows people rave about the whole vacation. Or if you're looking to unwind, Carnival has a spa that'll transport you to another dimension.

• 35:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Are you feeling adventurous? Explore one of Carnival's shore excursions. Carnival has everything you could ever want in a vacation. So if you've been guilty of overlooking cruises, it might be time to take another look. Book your next getaway at carnival.com. Ship's registry, the Bahamas and Panama.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  So you're considering getting a home security system, but you want something that fits your space. Well, with ADT Blue, it's easy to customize a system that's right for you and set it up yourself. Just pick the kit and monitoring plan that makes sense for your home.

• 35:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so you're worried about package theft. Well, the ADT Plus app can walk you through setting up a new doorbell camera kit. Once it's installed, ADT Pros can help you keep tabs on it 24/7, or you can manage it yourself from the ADT Plus app.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  And here's the best thing, there are no long-term contracts, so you can change your monitoring plan whenever you want. The flexibility doesn't end there either. You can add to your system as you need to with things like extra cameras or motion sensors.

• 36:21Josh Clark?

  Some life decisions are hard, but thanks to ADT Blue, you can DIY trusted ADT home security in a snap. Head to ADT.com/BLU to build your system today. And to hear more about home protection and other grown-up topics, check out new episodes of Grown-Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:04Josh Clark?

  I wonder how many people are like, what is he talking about? When he keeps saying the gun is gonna go off whenever Act 3 comes around? Well, I would say study your Chekhov friend.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  That's right. And not your Chekhov friend, your Chekhov comma friend.

• 37:18Josh Clark?

  Right, not the friend that you're like, I gotta hang out with him. And then you do real quick, you check him off your to-do list? Not that guy.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, we all have Chekhov friends.

• 37:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm sure I'm a lot of people's Chekhov friend.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. All right, so where are we? Are we at match time, basically? Which was turned into a complete circus, by the way.

• 37:38Josh Clark?

  Yes, this is September 20th, 1973. Is that the Houston Astrodome?

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  30,000 people showed up in person to see this. I saw all over the place, including Britannica, that 90 million people watched it around the world.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  That's, yeah, I think Livia had 50 million people, but I watched an interview with her with, I mean, serious journalist. It was Kathy Lee and Hoda.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  And they said 90 million and they were just drunk on white wine at nine in the morning or whatever. So I trust them.

• 38:12Josh Clark?

  Man, that was a weird time, wasn't it?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  It was a very weird time. I did want to point out that I looked up, I was like, well, how many people see a tennis tournament at like the grandest stage and center court at Wimbledon is about 15,000 people. So this was double that.

• 38:27Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:28Josh Clark?

  Uh, plus it was in the beautiful new Astrodome. So.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. So great.

• 38:33Josh Clark?

  Um, so the odds were very much in favor on Bobby Riggs. Um, the odds were six to one that Riggs would win. Um, and this was like, the whole thing was kind of presented in the media as like the, the battle of the sexes thing, the man versus woman and every juvenile joke or, you know, quip or whatever you could make out of that. That is how the whole thing was being promoted. That's how it was being played up in the media. It was not like this is a very serious thing that they set women's, um, women's rights back or move them forward. It would, none of that was, was in there. It was all just this almost tongue in cheek approach to it.

• 39:17Josh Clark?

  And that's how the whole thing, if you were a viewer, that's what you were kind of shown.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Um, and that's a good thing to point out. Uh, there was Hollywood was involved. There were a lot of actors and singers and stuff that were in a celebrity tournament beforehand. They were really milking it. Um, they, when they came in, the University of Houston band performed the song conquest, uh, which is an anthem from the 1947 movie Captain from Castile. Uh, that's when Bobby Riggs came in. Uh, they played Helen Reddy's I am woman when Billie Jean King came in. Uh, Livia pointed out that John Wayne, Bill Cosby and OJ Simpson were in attendance and I had probably 13 different comments or jokes written out for that, but I'm just going to let that, that trio stand without comment.

• 40:06Josh Clark?

  Dan's on the tone.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so.

• 40:09Josh Clark?

  Um, so ABC made a fat 1.2 million dollars off of ads for this, um, match.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:17Josh Clark?

  Astrodome got about half that and, um, people paying admission price.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:22Josh Clark?

  And the, so with the Margaret Court, Mother's Day massacre game that was played, um, under women's rules in that there were three sets. That's how women's tennis matches are played. Three sets. Men's tennis matches are played five sets. Billie Jean King, uh, was like, no, we're gonna play five sets. Best of five, essentially.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 40:42Josh Clark?

  So there were five.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Which is smart.

• 40:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh, she, yeah, she, uh, another thing that you'll see, uh, that's happened, uh, recently is, um, sometimes so a woman's court might be smaller than the man's court, which makes it harder for the man to land a, a ball in, in bounds.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Like in a battle of the sexes match?

• 41:02Josh Clark?

  Yes, thank you. There was nothing like that. This was like a men's match that Billie Jean King was playing against Bobby Riggs.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. Well, she was like, I got this 55 year old guy. Like he wants the, the, the three set match. So we're gonna go five, cause I'm in great shape.

• 41:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Uh, Bobby Riggs enters on a carriage, uh, pulled by women that are outfitted as Bobby's bosom buddies. Um, how did Billie Jean King come in?

• 41:27Josh Clark?

  Uh, she came in on a, basically a platform, carried by men in togas. I also saw Egyptians, like Egyptian servants. Uh, they were shirtless essentially, and they were brawny dudes. So, like both.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Probably not her idea.

• 41:41Josh Clark?

  No, but she was going along with it, right?

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, she played along.

• 41:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Then we were saying that she was taking it seriously, and she was, but she was also like willing to play along with this too. Like she wasn't just some like stick in the mud, you know?

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  So, um, just very appropriately, Bobby, uh, Riggs was sponsored by Sugar Daddy Candy.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:02Josh Clark?

  And, uh, he presented Billie Jean King with a two foot long Sugar Daddy. Remember those? They would just pull your fillings right out of your head.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 42:11Josh Clark?

  Um, and so King was like, oh, I have a gift for you too. It was a piglet that she named, uh, Bobby Riggs.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:18Josh Clark?

  Because he was a male chauvinist pig. And, um, don't worry about the pig. She, uh, coordinated with the promoter, Jerry Perenchio, very legendary promoter, um, that the pig would not be eaten or harmed. It would go to live on a farm afterward. And it did.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  That says everything you need to know about Billie Jean King.

• 42:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  She thought of everything.

• 42:39Josh Clark?

  She did. She crossed her Ts and dotted her oinks.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  That's right. So of course, it's 1973. So you want to get the best in the business at the time to do the play by play. So they got none other than Howard Cosell. Initially, they had a tennis promoter and anti feminist named Jack Kramer, who was gonna do, they were gonna do sort of a he versus she commentary and he was gonna be on Riggs' side. And one of the original nine, Rosie Casals, was gonna be on Billie Jean King's side. But Kramer, and this also speaks to Billie Jean King, he was one of the guys behind that original tournament that they protested and wouldn't play in. The Pacific Southwest Open where they said, oh yeah, well, we're gonna ban you then.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  So she was like, hey, this is all fun and games and everything, but if that jerk is involved, I'm not even gonna do this. So they pulled Kramer off the broadcast.

• 43:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they didn't have Rosie Casals speak too. And I'm really glad they didn't do that. That's, I mean, that's, it's a gimmick and it's understandable, but it would have made the whole thing suck. They brought in Gene Scott, who was the publisher of Tennis Week. And he just gave commentary like it was a regular tennis match, which is kind of what you wanted in this one.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 43:54Josh Clark?

  So I mean, imagine Dennis Miller and Dennis Miller calling a tennis match. You don't want that.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:03Josh Clark?

  Well, I mean, think about it. Whose idea was it to put them on Monday Night Football? On the one hand, it's brilliant. On the other, it's like, what?

• 44:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was weird.

• 44:11Josh Clark?

  But it was, it lasted for years too. It's not like it was a couple of games.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I think it was a full season, wasn't it?

• 44:19Josh Clark?

  I think it was more than that.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Oh, was it? Yeah, that was weird.

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So the game is on, essentially. That's the point we've reached here.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  That's right. So Bobby Riggs takes a 3-2 lead in the first set. And later on, Billie Jean King would say like, I was in trouble. I knew I was making some mistakes. I was in my head a little bit and I knew that I could not give this first set away, basically. Like, he needed to get that set for his psychological standing. And so that first set was so, so important for her. So she knew that she had to win it. She was down 3-2 and she came back and beat him and won that first set 6-4, which was a huge blow to his psyche.

• 45:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she said that she could tell that that had gotten to him when they switched sides. So she also changed her playing style. Normally, she would be like, she'd want to win the point as quickly and efficiently as possible. Instead, she started drawing volleys out and basically put the ball in one corner and then put the ball in the other corner. So she had this old man running back and forth, chasing down these balls to purposefully tire him out. I mean, that's just so cool that people are capable of doing that, you know? Like, I want the ball to go right here, so I'm going to make it go right there with this racket, even though the ball's coming at me at 70 miles an hour.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So she wore him out. By the end, he was talking about hand cramps. The levity had kind of lessened because, like you said, this 55-year-old was an old, old man.

• 45:55Josh Clark?

  Right. So remember we-

• 45:56Speaker 02

  So old.

• 45:57Josh Clark?

  Right. Not 54, 55.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Okay, okay. I got a couple more weeks.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  And so Billie Jean King won. And she won, like convincingly, 6-4, 6-3, 6-3. So remember, best out of five. She beat him in three straight sets.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  And she got her 100,000 check from no less than George Foreman.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:19Josh Clark?

  Who I read had hoped to use Bobby Riggs the pig to demonstrate his new type of indoor grill, but was disappointed that he wasn't allowed to.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 46:27Josh Clark?

  And so this was, it was just an immediate splash. Remember, this is a media spectacle. Everybody knows about this. 90 million people are watching. So the media just got right in on it again to let everybody know Billie Jean King won and let's celebrate her as a pro tennis player and that's it.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  That's right. I think we know Josh's coy voice by now. That's not at all how it was reported, of course. They kept reporting it sort of in the lowest common denominator way. The AP said that screaming, delirious women's livers lit up more brightly than the rocket shooting Astrodome scoreboard. Even my beloved New York Times said, King collapsed, tears in her eyes and her husband's arms, adding later, all of a sudden, she was a champion, a woman and a little girl, all at the same time.

• 47:16Josh Clark?

  That one brings like my eyes water from that one.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's tough.

• 47:20Josh Clark?

  That's so much worse than the Astrodome scoreboard, right? I mean, neither one are great.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:26Josh Clark?

  That one is just like, they meant that. They were trying to like, really be poignant there. And it's just like, good God.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, they missed the mark.

• 47:34Josh Clark?

  The thing about Bobby Riggs is he wasn't like, well, she, you know, she obviously is some freak woman who, who beat me. That's the only woman who could beat me. He did the opposite. He, he accepted the defeat with dignity and grace.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:49Josh Clark?

  He had a

• 47:50Speaker 02

  You saw that coming.

• 47:50Josh Clark?

  He had a thing where he hopped over the net, win or lose, after the end of every match. And he did. He hopped right over the, the net and went up to her and he said confidentially to her that he underestimated her.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:04Josh Clark?

  And then in the press conference, he went on to basically say the same thing, like she beat him very clearly.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. He said, she was too strong for me. There have since been rumors that he threw the match as a gambler with six to one odds against, that he threw the match and bet against himself. There was a report in, I think, 2013 ESPN dug into that and that there were like mafia figures he was working with to rig the odds. We'll never know the truth, but Bobby Riggs said he didn't throw it. Billie Jean King said that, I don't think he threw it. Like she could tell what was going on emotionally on that court.

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  And could tell that he wanted to win and that he was losing. You know, he might not have prepared like he should have. And I guess we'll never know the truth, but my money's on she, she beat him.

• 48:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, mine too, but there's, there's the, that rumor does have legs. Like he did hang out with mob guys. He was a huge gambler. The idea was that this, he was indebted to the mob like a hundred grand for in gambling debts and they would wipe it clean if he threw this and that he was also betting on himself. And his son said, it's possible. I don't really think that's true, but it's possible. Although his best friend is like, I won't even entertain that that's possible. Like he just didn't do that. Yeah. But one of the things that people point to is he was making some terrible mistakes during the game. So either she got in his head and he was rattled or he was throwing it. It just seems like the general consensus is that now he,

• 49:38Josh Clark?

  it seems pretty fringe that to genuinely believe that he threw the match.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree. Um, which I, I saw bits of that movie. I never saw the whole thing.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  The casting was incredible. Like Steve Carell and Emma Stone were kind of perfect. Uh, I don't think the movie was reviewed like super favorably, but it looked okay.

• 49:59Josh Clark?

  It's supposedly very true to life, actually.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Billie Jean King, at least she told Hoda and Kathie Lee that it was pretty true to life. She said that, she said they got the essence of it. She said it's a movie, of course, but they, they nailed the essence.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  Man, have you seen Begonia?

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. Yeah.

• 50:16Josh Clark?

  That is one of my new favorite movies. That is so good. I did not like, I can never remember his name. What is it?

• 50:21Speaker 02

  I'm glad you watched that. Oh, Jesse Plemons?

• 50:23Josh Clark?

  No, no, no. The director.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, oh, uh, Yorgos Lanthimos?

• 50:28Josh Clark?

  Thank you.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Wasn't that him?

• 50:29Josh Clark?

  Let me try saying it too. Yorgos Lanthimos. I don't think I've ever tried it because I've always been like, I'm going to screw this up.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Well, I might've screwed it up, but that's what I said.

• 50:37Josh Clark?

  I don't think so. I think you got it. Anyway, I did not like Poor Things. And I was like, oh, I don't know. Cause I liked everything leading up to that, but not this. And then I saw this. I'm like, he's back.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:50Josh Clark?

  It's a great movie.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  I told you, I texted you to see Kinds of Kindness too. Have you seen that one?

• 50:53Josh Clark?

  I still have not, no. I've been watching just tons of Rift Tracks.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's hard to get out of that cycle once you get in.

• 51:00Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  All right, so back to this after the, back to the battle of the sexes. After this, he wanted to kind of keep the media spotlight on him. So he tried to jump off the London Bridge in Arizona. But the sheriff there, so like you can't do that. So he had his picture taken on the lake below it in a raft. Billie Jean King went on to just keep being Billie Jean King. In 1974, she founded the Women's Sports Foundation, which is a nonprofit for women's and girls in athletics. And she would end up sort of very publicly coming out of the closet after being married for a long time to a guy, not the Larry King, but her Larry King.

• 51:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  In 1981, her longtime manager and assistant Marilyn Barnett, it was very sad what happened. She filed a lawsuit against her, which revealed their affair that she had from, they had from 72 to 79, because she had fallen from a balcony of Billie Jean's, Billie Jean King's house in Malibu and lost the use of her legs and said that, hey, Billie Jean King promised to give me that house and support me financially. So she, she took her to court and it got really messy.

• 52:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I saw, so the, the fall from the house in Malibu I saw was a, an attempted suicide. And that she had blackmailed, Marilyn Barnett had blackmailed Larry King and Billie Jean King before the lawsuit basically said, hey, if you don't want this to come out, let's settle before I actually go public with it. They didn't, she went public with it. And then to her great credit, after being outed in 1980, what?

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Eighty-one.

• 52:37Josh Clark?

  Eighty-one.

• 52:39Josh Clark?

  Billie Jean King said, you know what? We'd never promised her the Malibu house, but yes, I'm gay. Larry and I have a, an open marriage. And we're actually going to stay together for the time being. And they stayed together until 1987. And they divorced because Billie Jean King fell for Ilana Kloss, a fellow tennis player, and they ended up getting married in 2018. So this was enormous. She was outed, she hadn't outed herself. She, her choice to do so was removed, but she stood behind it. She didn't, she didn't deny it. She didn't deny who she was. She said, yep, I'm, I'm gay.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was pretty great. As far as equality and pay in pro sports, that's obviously still a thing. It was 2007 when all the Grand Slams agreed to pay women equally in tennis. And they still don't in some of the other big events. I think just a couple of years ago, the 2024 Canadian Open, there was a $5.9 million pool for the men and $2.5 million pool for women. And if, you know, if you come back with an argument of like, yeah, well, the, you know, the men's events are, they get more viewers and more advertising because they're in those better time slots. Then you kind of just said it yourself. It's a lot of it has to do with the fact that they're in those better time slots and they tend to schedule the women's events in lesser time slots.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  And so they don't get as much advertising. They don't have, you know, a great maternity leave in professional tennis for women. So it's, you know, there's still battles to be fought, but Billie Jean King is still out there fighting them.

• 54:15Josh Clark?

  One last little thing, Chuck, that always struck me. Before he died in 1995, I think like the night before he died, Billie Jean King visited Bobby Riggs to say goodbye.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's pretty great. They had a lifelong, you know, tie and friendship.

• 54:35Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm. So that's it. That's the battle of the sexes. It was, it was great. How about that?

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:44Josh Clark?

  I feel like, I feel like Tim Robbins in Anchorman. Remember the, he's like, you know, we at PBS are really down with women's lip.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. Also, Steve Carell was in that.

• 54:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he loves lamp.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  He loves lamp.

• 54:59Josh Clark?

  Since Chuck said he loves lamp, I tricked him into it. He just unlocked listener mail.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a listener mail where I'm going to apologize.

• 55:08Josh Clark?

  Oh, boy.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  To, to Aoife from Ireland because apparently we have, here and there, dabbled in Irish erasure in our show, which is something that is a total accident and something that I'm going to be more aware of moving forward. And here's the email. Hi, guys. Longtime listener here. I'm so sad to hear two Irish erasure moments in one episode. In the third man syndrome episode, you use the example of the endurance expedition to show how it works. And you called Ernest Shackleton British. And if I'm not wrong, also Tom Crean. But both men were reborn in Irish. Shackleton was born in Kilkey.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  County Kildare. Did I say that right? I think I did.

• 55:51Josh Clark?

  You said Kilkenny.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, Kilkenny, County Kildare, just under an hour from Dublin city. And Crean was born in Anaskal, County Kerry. This is a sore spot for Irish people as we are often, so often called British, and we don't take it so well. Example, look up Killian Murphy also being called British. But we will forgive you, however, and that is from Aoife. And Aoife, that is me being an ignorant person. And I certainly know there's a difference and I have a hard time keeping track sometimes, but I need to do better at that. So apologies.

• 56:28Josh Clark?

  Nice work, Chuck. I'm sure I've done that before too, so I want to apologize too.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Great, two apologies in one.

• 56:35Josh Clark?

  Yes. And who is that from?

• 56:37Speaker 02

  That was from Aoife, spelled A-O-I-F-E.

• 56:40Josh Clark?

  Beautiful. Thanks a lot, Aoife. And if you want to be like Aoife and call us out on something, we stand for that. You can send it in an email to [email protected].

• 56:58Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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