SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: The Harvey’s Casino Bombing of 1980

In August of 1980 a bomb containing 1,000 pounds of dynamite was quietly delivered to Harvey’s, a casino and resort at Lake Tahoe. This kicked off a whirlwind caper that lasted 30 hours and ended up nearly demolishing the 11-story resort. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places. Let's be real, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and yes, it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next unless something starts to feel off.

• 0:47Josh Clark?

  Introducing Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio, hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The bombing of Harvey's Casino in Lake Tahoe, Nevada is one of the great overlooked capers. It's kind of nuts how anything like the Harvey's bombing could ever be forgotten, considering the outcome. This episode has it all, a great plot, incompetent criminals, an amazingly well-designed bomb, and a huge explosion. And it's maybe even cooler somehow because it takes place in 1980.

• 1:33Josh Clark?

  Plus, no one dies, which makes it okay for me to call this episode kind of charming. Enjoy.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:53Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here and this is Stuff You Should Know. The true crime edition where nobody gets hurt. Isn't that amazing?

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think this falls into our sort of caper edition.

• 2:08Josh Clark?

  Yes, well put, well put.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Editions.

• 2:10Josh Clark?

  Do, do we have any other capers?

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, like the Chachilla kidnapping and I think

• 2:15Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  any non-murder crime podcast, I think would fall under this, like DB

• 2:19Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  DB Cooper.

• 2:22Josh Clark?

  Exactly. And before I forget Chuck, that was definitely a caper. Good call. This was a request, which like you said last time, we've been doing a lot of these lately. But this one was requested by Nick Hales. And I say, good request, Nick. Thanks for that. And I totally spaced on shouting out Neil Stevens from the UK for Georgia Guidestones episode. He requested it and gave me the idea to do it.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  All right. Nice work. This one was so familiar to me that I was sure that we'd either touched on it or that I saw, what I really thought was that I saw a documentary about it. But I hadn't, because I don't think there's been one. I don't know what it is. It was really familiar with some other thing, true life thing that I saw.

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I don't know. But the fact that there's not a movie about this is insane.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know if it's movie worthy.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, man. Just like the pork chop sideburns alone, I think would warrant a movie. But because I said pork chop sideburns, of course, we're talking about 1980, right Chuck? August 26, 1980?

• 3:31Speaker 02

  That's right. And on August 26, 1980, very early in the morning, a couple of delivery dudes, would be delivery dudes, wheeled a big piece of equipment, had a cover on it, said IBM, into Harvey's Resort Hotel in Lake Tahoe, Nevada. Shout out to our buddy, Aaron Hagar, representing Lake Tahoe.

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  Is he in Tahoe?

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. He's got it made out there in Tahoe.

• 3:57Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Except for the bears and wildfires.

• 4:00Josh Clark?

  I'll bet he's heard of this story then.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  I bet you he has. We'll hear from him on this. But anyway, they wheeled it in there up to the second floor offices and dropped it off and basically skedaddled after that. They had a guy waiting in a van outside and drove them the heck out of there.

• 4:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so it's kind of weird 5:00 AM to drop off a piece of office equipment, not waiting around for anybody to sign it. Kind of odd. And within an hour, the oddity behind it kind of became really apparent. A slot manager, I believe, or maybe the night manager in general. He noticed this piece of office equipment that was kind of randomly placed on the second floor offices. And he saw that there was a note by it. And he gathered some other employees and they were all kind of hanging out, reading the note. And one of the details I love that I saw in a Adam Higginbottom article on the Atavist. Was that one of the people reading the note was leaning up against the machine while they were reading the note.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  All right. The note said, should we read the note?

• 5:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because then it makes the whole thing about somebody leaning up against it really hilarious.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  All right, stern warning to the management and bomb squad. In which case, I would have been out of there. That's all I need to hear.

• 5:14Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Do not move or tilt this bomb because the mechanism controlling the detonators in it will set it off at a movement of less than .01 of the open end Richter scale. So let's confuse people right out of the gate is what this note is what this guy's thinking.

• 5:30Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Don't try to flood or gas the bomb. There's a float switch and an atmosphere pressure switch set at two numbers, 26.00 to 33. Both are attached to detonators. Do not try to take it apart. The flathead screws are attached to triggers. As much of a quarter to three quarters of a turn will cause the explosion. In other words, this bomb is so sensitive that the slightest movement, either inside or outside, will cause it to explode. Full stop.

• 5:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and you can guess the person leaning against the machine stood up and moved away from it, right?

• 6:04Speaker 02

  That's right. And basically, they said-

• 6:07Josh Clark?

  I love that part.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  No one can detonate, or no one can deactivate this bomb. Not even I, not even the creator, can defuse this thing. So it is going to go off at some point. Your best hope of not getting hurt is to pay a $3,000 ransom. And you're going to receive instructions on how to move it out of here so it can explode somewhere else.

• 6:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and it would have been a bargain for $3,000. There was actually a $3 million ransom.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Did it say $3,000?

• 6:36Josh Clark?

  You did. I think you were being optimistic.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:39Josh Clark?

  But it was a, it was a big fat ransom. And the, the bomb itself, I mean, if you just look at the, at the ransom note, when it's talking about the bomb, that's a pretty amazing bomb. And it actually became pretty legendary with the FBI. So much so that I saw that they still, I don't know if they still do today, but for many years, they used it as a teaching model for bomb technicians. And the FBI considered it very sophisticated. And they said, it was unlike anything any bomb technician had ever seen before. No one had ever made a bomb like this.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, very good bomb, if there is such a thing. It was a couple of stacked boxes lined with metal and rubber that through conventional methods, you couldn't separate, of course, without it going boom. And so the FBI did what they do in this case. They come in, they start taking pictures, they x-ray it, they sweep it for fingerprints. Obviously, they don't move it. They find out that it has about 1,000 pounds of dynamite inside. And they can't find a way to, like, basically, they're saying, this note seems to be right on the money. Like, we can't find a way, at least right off the bat, about how to defuse this thing safely.

• 7:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and very famously, the bomb technicians in the room started running around in aimless circles, saying, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. And they did that for a good three hours, I think, before somebody stepped in and stopped them. But that ransom note also showed a lot of planning, not just the bomb. Like, this bomb was amazing, just full stop amazing. One to really be proud of if you were a bomb maker. But the actual heist itself. Had like a real shot at extorting this $3 million successfully. And it started with, they knew what they were doing out of the gate. They said, we want $3 million in used bills, hundred dollar bills, already used, not marked, not bugged, don't even try to chemically treat them.

• 8:39Josh Clark?

  And we want you to fly a helicopter to Lake Tahoe Airport, have the pilot land by the payphone and wait by the payphone for instructions. Our instructions are going to come from the payphone? Who knows? They could also come by taxi. They could also come by carrier pigeon. I'm making that last one up, but they were just trying out of the gate to confuse them so that they couldn't plan for everything. And it was, I think it was a really well-planned heist.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they basically said, no one involved from this point that you meet up with, like, anyone that might deliver a note, any, someone that might drive a vehicle that's involved, like, no one's gonna know anything, so don't bother. And I think I believe that that's probably true. They said that the, you know, I, the creator of the bomb, I'm not gonna be a part of this money drop, I'm not gonna be around, nobody that's a part of any of this exchange of money is gonna know anything about how to defuse this bomb. Like, this thing is gonna go off, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Again, the only thing that you can do is follow what will ultimately be six sets of

• 9:49Speaker 02

  instructions to safely get this bomb out of there after I get my loot.

• 9:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, after he gets the loot, or they. So, the first set of instructions was gonna be given to the helicopter pilot. The rest of the instructions would arrive through the local post office, which is putting a lot of, a lot of faith in the USPS. But then there was another demand, too, that was probably the most ridiculous demand of all. They said that all news media, local or national, was to be kept ignorant of the heist until the bomb was successfully removed, right?

• 10:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was impossible.

• 10:24Josh Clark?

  Totally impossible because the first thing the cops did when they realized like this is for real, which they figured out pretty quickly. I think the thing was discovered before 6:00 AM and by 7:00 or 8:00 at the very latest, they were rousting hotel guests at Harvey's. Many of them from sleep telling them like, nope, you don't have time to grab your belongings. You gotta go. And not only did they evacuate Harvey's, a thousand pounds of dynamite can do some real damage. They actually evacuated Harrah's across the street from Harvey's too.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. So they said, you're all gonna go to this nearby high school. And of course, the media, it's a, it's a big thing when that happens, when people are being like massively bust out in their bathrobes and stuff. So basically, within a few hours, like all the media knows this, they cordon off the area. There's people hanging out. There's, there's gawkers, there's reporters, there's, before you know it, of course, because there's casinos around there, they're taking bets, of course, like over under on whether this thing's gonna detonate. And not only did they not keep the media out of it, but it became like, I mean, call it a sensation indicates that it drug on. It was like a day and change, but it was a crazy day and change for the media.

• 11:38Josh Clark?

  For sure. And it was over the week before Labor Day weekend. So Tahoe was crawling with people. And this was 1980, right? Just 36 years before, the first casino was opened on the south shore of Lake Tahoe, and it was opened by the same guy whose hotel now had a bomb in it, Harvey Gross. His first thing was Harvey's wagon wheel saloon and gambling hall, which I saw described as a cabin that had six slot machines in it. And at the time in Tahoe, Chuck, there was no phone, no water, no sewer, no power lines. The roads would

• 12:18Josh Clark?

  close at like the first sign of snow. And it was like a real podunk area, but gambling made it, actually. Put it on the map.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  For a second there, I thought you were gonna say, not a single luxury.

• 12:32Josh Clark?

  Oh, man. I really should have. I wish I had. I'm not on my game today.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Like Robinson Crusoe. They're what? Primitive as can be, right?

• 12:41Josh Clark?

  That's what they said, but it was the 60s. You wouldn't say that anymore.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Uh, so things go great for Harvey and his little wagon wheel, uh, cabin. You know, it's on the state line of California. So that's a pretty smart thing. Cause you get those out of staters, those riches from California throwing down some money.

• 13:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And it was so on the state line. It was in a town called state line.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  That's very Nevada.

• 13:06Josh Clark?

  It's very on the nose.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  To name something like that.

• 13:09Josh Clark?

  I'm so nervous about us saying it the right way, cause those people will email you like gangbusters.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Oh, it's Nevada, but I always say Nevada.

• 13:18Josh Clark?

  Okay. But they say it Nevada.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Everyone outside the state of Nevada says Nevada and that drives them nuts.

• 13:24Josh Clark?

  Drives them crazy. It's really something.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  So, uh, Harvey, uh, no, let's wait on break. So Harvey was doing great. With this little tiny casino in the forties through the fifties, makes a lot of dough. And by 63 had, uh, expanded and upgraded to Harvey's Lake Tahoe, which, uh, at the time was the tallest building, um, at 11 stories, which is, you know, that's a pretty tall building for that area of the country.

• 13:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Less than 20 years, he went from a, a cabin to an 11 story casino resort.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:58Josh Clark?

  And I believe it was at that same 11 story casino resort that this bomb, um, was placed in, in 1980, 17 years later. And Harvey himself was like, I mean, he was a casino owner in Nevada. Like he had, I don't want to say a checkered past, but he had a past, like he'd, um, been hauled in front of the IRS for tax evasion. There was, um, he, he had been given an honorary name by the Nevada inter tribal. Did I say it right? Nevada?

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 14:29Josh Clark?

  By the Nevada.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:30Josh Clark?

  Inter tribal council. Uh, he was called Chief Hunai. And there was an article that was written back in, I think 1980, that said that it meant, uh, the man who runs the game and takes a percentage of the bets.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  I don't know if that's a joke or not. I can't tell.

• 14:45Josh Clark?

  I don't either, cause that's definitely like a that era kind of joke, you know?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:50Josh Clark?

  You can see that on like a tiki, tiki napkin.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  But the long and short of it is, he was, he'd had his little run ins with the IRS and stuff and the gaming board, but it wasn't anything unusual. He wasn't like some bad guy, like mafioso type. He was, like you said, he owned a casino and there's, you know, he's gonna be brought up by the IRS at some point. But all of this to say, he wasn't like some, some big mark because of like all his dirty dealings in his past, basically.

• 15:21Josh Clark?

  I saw him actually referred to as a good guy by some people.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it sounds like it.

• 15:25Josh Clark?

  Like he, he was well known to have put off expansion. Like he didn't want to expand to other towns. He's basically said, I'm, I'm making enough money. He had a quote that he would refer to as, I have a nice little business. How many steaks can I eat? Which is to say, like, he had everything he needed and this was fine. He was happy with his business where it was.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  That's right. But it was the seventies and into the early eighties, which was just sort of the golden age of all this kind of stuff, of kidnappings and ransoms and hijackings. And it just seems like all this kind of hijinks, there's still stuff like that happens occasionally, but not like it did back then.

• 16:10Josh Clark?

  I think it's because Chuck, the police state hadn't evolved enough that they would catch you no matter what.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, cameras everywhere now.

• 16:18Josh Clark?

  Right. And leaded gas had been around long enough to really have the effects on a whole new generation of brains. So you put those two things together, you have everything converging on the seventies for people trying all sorts of heists and kidnappings and stuff like that.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that happened back then, around there even. I think as far back as the early seventies, there were kidnapping conspiracies against gross, ransom things that had been uncovered. In the late seventies, there were smoke bombs with ransom notes found at other casinos around Tahoe. So.

• 16:52Josh Clark?

  I don't know about that.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  It was, what, the smoke bombs?

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah. What is that? You might as well say like, there's a box of sparklers in your, in your lobby. Give me 500,000 simoleons or else.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Give me 35 cents.

• 17:06Josh Clark?

  I know, to pay me back for the smoke bombs.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  So it was a time where if you owned a casino that brought in, I think he made about four million profit, but brought in like $70 million a year like his did, then that simply just meant you were a market by virtue of that fact alone.

• 17:26Josh Clark?

  Right. The thing is though, is the FBI found out, as they started investigating the case about a year after, that it actually was a personal vendetta against Harvey himself or Harvey's casino that led to that bomb being placed there in August of 1980.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Hmm, that sounds like a great cliffhanger for a break.

• 17:44Josh Clark?

  Thank you. Thanks, man.

• 17:45Speaker 03

  All right, we'll get back to it right after this.

• 18:00Speaker 03

  Hey, everybody. If you've been thinking about securing your home, there's no better time to protect it with SimpliSafe. Right now, you can save 70% on a new system, their biggest savings of the year. You've heard us talk about SimpliSafe before, and you know it's designed to keep threats away from the door and your loved ones safe in the first place. If you thought about SimpliSafe at all, now is the time to finally secure your home.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, unlike traditional security systems that only alert you after a break in is already underway, SimpliSafe is built to stop it before it starts. Their agents intervene in under 30 seconds, speaking through the camera to stop an intruder in their tracks and calling for urgent 911 dispatch when it's needed most.

• 18:36Speaker 03

  That's right, and SimpliSafe has an offer for our listeners now with their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/stuff. That's simplisafe.com/stuff, and when you order, write in the code STUFF at checkout. It tells them we sent you and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 19:03Speaker 03

  Hey everybody, the holidays are coming up, so let us throw this out there. Are you prepared to host friends or family? Like, really prepared? Because there's a difference between having people stay at your house and properly hosting them.

• 19:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what we thought. So maybe it's time for a little refresh. Well, we have a tip. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home, so you can host and celebrate without the stress.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  That's right. Whether you're just swapping out a busted appliance or going all-in, on a top-to-bottom home makeover for the holidays, Wayfair has you covered. Thousands of products, every style, every budget.

• 19:37Josh Clark?

  And it's all built for real life. Every item is hand-vetted by specialists with a 10-point quality inspection. And on top of that, with over 20 million verified 5-star reviews, you can have total confidence in all the picks you make.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  So remember, when refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Just head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 20:06Josh Clark?

  Hey everybody, the best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on. Whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual, and this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 20:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  All right, so we're back in action here at the bomb site. The FBI's bomb squad is working hard trying to figure this thing out. They have another team working on a fake ransom drop. Special Agent William Jonkey basically told Harvey, hey, listen, why don't we drag this thing out as much as we can? We'll do a fake payoff arrangement. Maybe we can just sort of put off this bomb going off long enough for us to figure it out, either how to stop it or how to catch these people. Like, the bomb is gonna go off no matter what. And once Gross heard that, he was like, well, I'm not paying anything if this thing's going off no matter what. You can use my, by God, you can use my own helicopter for the drop even. And that's what they did.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  They used his own personal helicopter, but the pilot was fed, and there was another fed with a gun hiding behind the pilot's seat with a suitcase full of mostly fake money.

• 22:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think a few grand is what I saw. And just like the ransom note said, the agent flew the helicopter to Lake Tahoe Airport, landed next to the payphone, and got there just in time, from what I saw, for the phone to start ringing, although I suspect they were being watched. And the phone rang, and rather than giving them instructions over the phone, I think it's hilarious that they said, "Look underneath the phone. There's instructions taped beneath the phone." And then I guess hung up.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  We didn't want to tape it to the front of the phone booth.

• 22:48Josh Clark?

  Right. So he checks out the instructions, and it says, "Okay, this is what you're gonna do. You're gonna fly west along the highway for 15 minutes from the airport, and you're gonna turn." There's some compass setting, they told him to turn toward. I never found which one. And then after a certain amount of time, he should start looking for a beacon, which is gonna be a strobe light in a field. He should land there, and that's where the money drop would happen. And so the pilot took off, and he did exactly as the thing instructed, as the ransom note instructed. And there was nothing. He flew around for 45 minutes, just waiting, hoping, I guess probably came close to running out of gas. And then he flew back to the Lake Tahoe Airport and went back to the payphone in case they

• 23:33Josh Clark?

  called to say, like, what the heck's going on? And they never did call, actually. So the money drop never happened.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  The fed takes off and he's got the other fed behind him hiding with a gun and he's like, "Hey, how do you think this guy knows how far we're gonna be in 15 minutes?" And the other fed went, "Beats me." And that's exactly what happened. And it's at this point in the story where we will introduce you to the guy behind the whole thing. And we'll learn more about him later, but his name was John Waldo Burgess Senior. And that was one of the key mistakes he made. He kind of botched this money drop because he, he should have said miles, like fly so many miles or fly to this destination. He just said fly for 15 minutes.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  And I don't know if he put like at an average rate of speed for your helicopter.

• 24:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  But the long and short of it is, they didn't know after he had flown 15 minutes exactly where he was gonna end up. And they were like, "Well, that stinks." And this is after they had forgotten the battery to the strobe light.

• 24:40Josh Clark?

  Right. They left it in Fresno.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  They eventually got one. Yeah, they left it at their, at their place. They eventually got one. They tried to break into an auto parts store to get one and got chased off and then got one at a Shell station. So they had the strobe, but by the time all this happens, they don't even know where the helicopter is.

• 24:59Josh Clark?

  No, and that Shell station also has its own hilarious story because the gas station attendant they were trying to buy the battery from basically was like, "Why? No, you need this kind of battery for the Volvo that you have parked outside that you're driving." They're like, "It doesn't matter what kind of battery it's for." He's like, "Well, yeah, it does because Volvo won't take any battery." And they finally, I guess, convinced him to just sell them a battery. And he's like, "Fine, I guess. You're gonna find out yourself that it's not gonna work." And they finally drove off. That's how they got the battery. But they made it to that drop point, which was 25 miles away from the airport. And they sat there and waited and waited and waited and waited and waited. No helicopter.

• 25:42Josh Clark?

  No helicopter came. And the reason why is because they were separated by so many miles, they couldn't even hear the helicopter where it was. It was so far away from where they were at the drop site.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  All right, so this is botched. Back at the bomb site at the casino, this, a full-on party is going on because it's a casino and people are just out of their minds at those places. So the barricades are set up. People are selling T-shirts. I got bombed at Lake Tahoe. I had a dynamite time at Lake Tahoe. Like, that's how quickly this thing was moving. And the bomb squad team said, "All right, here's what I think we should do." Like, they called us and they said if we flip switch number five, then it'll buy some more time because this thing isn't playing out quite right. But I don't know if I trust that. No one volunteered to flick that switch. Like, they felt, basically, we should go on our own, like, with our own gut feeling on how to do this,

• 26:37Speaker 02

  which is to, basically, blow this box apart, but do it so quickly that it severs the relay switch, like, before the signal can reach the dynamite.

• 26:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which is pretty fast. And it was possible. They had some of, like, the greatest minds in the United States who knew about bombs working on this problem. And they designed a charge especially for this, and it was built and brought to the site and put up. And they said, "This still has at best a 25 to 30% chance." But we talked to the engineer, one of the engineers at Harvey's, and he said, "It probably won't bring the whole building down, so let's give it a shot." And so, almost 35 hours after the bomb had been discovered, around 3:00 PM, the next day, a guy named Danny Daniele was the person who volunteered to go take the charge, put it on the bomb exactly at the angle he was told to put it at,

• 27:32Josh Clark?

  and then walked out and started the countdown for the remote triggering. And remember, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people thronged together to watch this to see if it worked. And when they finally did, apparently, they broadcast the radio, the countdown on, like, local radio, Chuck. And when they finally set it off, that charge did not work the way it was intended.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  No. It set off the bomb. The entire thing went off. And it was, like we said, it was 1,000 pounds of dynamite. It created a 40 to 50-foot hole in the ground in the middle of this casino. Shooting shrapnel everywhere, obviously, shooting cash and chips everywhere, which is obviously problematic.

• 28:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  They said there were TV sets swinging on cords, toilets hanging by the pipes. It was a huge massive explosion in the middle of a casino. And because it's a casino and because it's Tahoe, it was not very long afterward that the surrounding casinos got right back to business. And it didn't take too long, a couple of days before Harvey's got back to business with what was left of the casino. They put glass around it and was kind of like, hey, come see the bomb hole and gamble some.

• 28:49Josh Clark?

  And watch the FBI work on this crime scene that just took place. So one of the other great details of this story for me is that the bandits didn't know that the bomb had been detonated. And so a few minutes after the bomb went off, they called the local sheriff's office and said, we'll be calling back in one hour to arrange another payment drop.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  He said, whatever.

• 29:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Can't you imagine like the person who took the call being like, oh, yeah, great. Okay, we'll talk to you in an hour.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So that didn't matter. Harvey Gross was very sad. He just cried when he saw the damage. Eighteen million dollars worth of damage. And, you know, we'll tell you what ultimately happened later, but they got back to business, like I said, and I guess we should talk a little bit more about who this mastermind was.

• 29:41Josh Clark?

  I agree, Chuck, and I say before we start talking about the mastermind behind the plot, we take a break.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  All right, let's do it.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. If you've been thinking about securing your home, there's no better time to protect it with SimpliSafe. Right now, you can save 70% on a new system, their biggest savings of the year. You've heard us talk about SimpliSafe before, and you know it's designed to keep threats away from the door and your loved ones safe in the first place. If you thought about SimpliSafe at all, now is the time to finally secure your home.

• 30:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, unlike traditional security systems. That only alert you after a break in is already underway. SimpliSafe is built to stop it before it starts. Their agents intervene in under 30 seconds, speaking through the camera to stop an intruder in their tracks and calling for urgent 911 dispatch when it's needed most.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  That's right, and SimpliSafe has an offer for our listeners now with their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/stuff. That's simplisafe.com/stuff, and when you order, write in the code STUFF at checkout. It tells them we sent you and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 31:02Josh Clark?

  Hey, everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on, whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 31:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 32:19Josh Clark?

  So we already revealed who it was, a guy named John Burgess Senior. And his son wrote a book later that I saw, he called the publisher to find out how many copies had been sold at the time, and they told him zero. But in this book, he depicts his dad as not a very nice guy. He was an abusive husband, physically abusive, a really terrible dad. He liked to emotionally blackmail his family by threatening to take his life by suicide. And he was an actual Nazi, like a genuine Nazi, just to put the cherry on top of everything.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, he flew for the Luftwaffe and spent eight years in a Soviet prison camp before coming to America and becoming a multimillionaire. So it kind of ended up okay for him. He had a landscaping business in Fresno that apparently did really, really well. But he also liked to gamble a lot and lost a ton of money over the years. I think about $750,000 they'd estimated that he lost, I think at Harvey's alone, right?

• 33:25Josh Clark?

  I think that was the whole shebang, but most of that was at Harvey's. That was my take on it.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  Okay. And we do need to put a pin in something else is that years before, he had a business, a restaurant, that it was pretty clear that he burned down for the insurance money, got $355,000 from that and gambled that away.

• 33:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was that kind of guy, right? So the heist itself, it was, it was an attempt to make back some of the money that the house had taken from him over the years that he felt bitter about. But also, the reason that he targeted Harvey's, they later found out, was that on some New Year's Eve a year or two before, he had been given the high roller suite. That's how often he gambled at Harvey's, like he was well-known there. But he had amassed such a debt that they actually took him that evening out of the high roller suite and put him in a regular room.

• 34:23Speaker 02

  That was why he did it, man.

• 34:25Josh Clark?

  Much to his great humiliation, yeah. I mean, that was pretty much why he, at the very least, why he targeted Harvey's. They, he, he considered that quite a, a loss of pride. Because I guess he was with a date and the date was like, I thought you said you were a big time.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:40Josh Clark?

  Which didn't make it any better. So that's why Harvey's got targeted in particular.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  That's right. And they put Aaron Hagar in that suite instead.

• 34:48Josh Clark?

  They did. And everything was right with the world.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  That's right. So actually, Aaron's, he's about my age, so he would have been a kid back then. Or maybe they did.

• 34:58Josh Clark?

  He could have been high rolling.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Maybe he was like a nine or 10 year old, like running the show in that gambling room.

• 35:03Josh Clark?

  I could totally see it.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  So we mentioned he was Burgess Senior. There was a Burgess Junior. He had a couple of sons, John Junior and Jimmy, who were 20 and 18 respectively. And then Jimmy, or wait, was, was Ella Williams the Senior's girlfriend?

• 35:20Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Okay. So he had a girlfriend named Ella Williams, who were also in on it, and these two numbskulls, who delivered the bomb named Bill Brown and Terry Hall.

• 35:29Josh Clark?

  The FBI later said after they caught Bill Brown, they described him, or no, it was from a, a report, like somebody who witnessed the bomb being delivered. They said one of them was a hayseed, a real goober type. That's how they described Bill Brown. And it's sad for Bill Brown and Terry Hall, Chuck, because they got a total of 2,100 bucks. But it wasn't until after they were driven away early that morning that they were told what they'd just done. They did not know that they were delivering a bomb until after they delivered the bomb. Isn't that terrible?

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they, they were probably just sold here some money, go deliver this thing. That was a lot of money.

• 36:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. Yeah, and John Burgess Junior just totally misled him, which is another mark against that guy.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  All right. So spinning back a little bit, when they hatched this plan, the first thing they did was go out and get all this dynamite, which they stole from a power plant in California, and stashed it in their walk-in freezer in their garage. And started building this bomb and no one, that's kind of one of the mysteries of this case is it was such a sophisticated device and no one still really knows how this guy managed to build this thing, if he had help, if he was just this bomb genius that no one knew about, or was just super smart and did his research, but no one really knows how he managed to build such a sophisticated bomb.

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  I mean, it's still not clear. I don't think anybody will ever know. He just did it. And what's crazy is John Burgess might have gotten away with the whole thing. The FBI did not, they were not on him initially. They interviewed something like 500 suspects in the whole case. And there were two things that seemed to have brought Burgess down. One was a hotel owner who was the night manager of the hotel that Burgess, Brown, and Hall stayed at before they planted the bomb. Her name was Nancy Domenico. And she found those three suspicious enough that she wrote down their license plate on their van, make, model,

• 37:36Josh Clark?

  color, and the license plate number, and just kept it on file, just in case. And it turned out that that would become really important later on. And then the other factor was John Burgess Jr. had a really loud mouth, it turns out.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, he had a girlfriend leading up to the event and he would just brag all about this thing. They break up. You never think about the breakup side of things when you're spilling your innermost thoughts.

• 38:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  And she has a new boyfriend, tells him all about this guy I dated before you that told me all about this bomb plot. The new boyfriend calls in the FBI tip. So now they have a couple of tips pointing to these dudes.

• 38:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  They tracked down the van that Nancy Domenico had reported as shady.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  And it was a van that was registered to the restaurant that Burgess Senior allegedly had burned down. So that's where that comes back into play.

• 38:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So they're like, okay, let's go interview John Burgess Senior. And John Burgess Senior says, oh, John Junior was driving the van.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Just completely gave his son up. Immediately.

• 38:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, like, that first interview said, probably said, here's his address. Hopefully at least call this son to give him a heads up. I don't know. But they went over and they interviewed John Junior. And he said, yes, I was around Tahoe at the time. Yes, I was with my van, but I was looking for places to plant marijuana. And you know that's true, because I've just admitted to a crime to the FBI. Right? Right? And apparently the FBI didn't, didn't really buy it. They said like, that story is awful. But he stuck to it. And they didn't have anything else they could get him on right then. But he was definitely on their radar from that point forward.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  I thought it was a pretty good story to be put on the spot, personally.

• 39:25Josh Clark?

  Well, well.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  It didn't work, but like, to admit to another crime, I was like,

• 39:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  All right, not bad.

• 39:31Josh Clark?

  I'll give you that part. The part I think the FBI, the FBI was like, you're kidding, right? He said, the battery died, so I abandoned the van. Somebody must have taken it and used it in the crime and then brought it back while I, I was away from the van.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Right. Well, which is a long way of saying wasn't, wasn't me.

• 39:49Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  So they, you know, they do what they do in the movies. They don't have enough hard evidence. So they spend a year getting that evidence, building a case.

• 40:00Josh Clark?

  We're in a montage with a great like upbeat song where they're putting this stuff together, right?

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Sure. I don't know why John Junior and John Senior are still in the country. I would have been out of there so fast.

• 40:13Josh Clark?

  Where would you go?

• 40:15Speaker 02

  I'd leave the country.

• 40:17Josh Clark?

  I know. Where? Where'd you go?

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a really good question. Everyone just always talks about like, who would you have over for dinner? Living or dead? Like, where would you go if you were guilty of a bombing plot?

• 40:29Josh Clark?

  I mean, it's got to be a non extradition treaty country, right? So you're looking at like Venezuela.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  I'd have to do my research then. But yeah, I would go someplace with a beach and, and like a very quiet life.

• 40:41Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then they just, you know, they eventually show up at the beach in the movie as well.

• 40:47Josh Clark?

  So, yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Pull that Mai Tai out of your hands and you're toast.

• 40:49Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Canada has beaches.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Sure, lovely beaches.

• 40:55Josh Clark?

  There you go.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Not quite the beaches I was looking for, though.

• 40:57Josh Clark?

  You're welcome, Chuck.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Uh, so the FBI is getting this evidence. Uh, they have rewards, uh, I think like a half a million bucks is about as high as the reward went. And finally, about a year later, they, uh, arrest John Jr. And Jimmy, and they say, they dangle a little, uh, carrot in front of their faces.

• 41:20Josh Clark?

  I'm so glad you said carrot.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  How would you like to, uh, how'd you like to turn on dad? And maybe get a little leniency? And they went, that jerk? I'm happy to. And that's exactly what they did.

• 41:31Josh Clark?

  Right. And, um, they turned on their dad, they arrested their dad, they arrested Ella Williams, Bill Brown, Terry Hall. And from what we understand, every single person who had anything to do with that was rounded up and one fell swoop, basically. And the convictions started coming out. Uh, Ella Williams got seven years for her involvement and she hasn't factored in hugely into this podcast, but she was definitely an accomplice. She typed the ransom notes up. She, um, she did a lot. I think she dropped some people off at the, one of the, the landing sites. Like, she was very much involved. So she got seven years, but a judge later overturned her conviction. And I couldn't see why, but, um, she, as far as I know, she did not do any time in prison, maybe beyond her trial.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the sons did get that leniency. Uh, as for John Senior, he represented himself in court, cross-examined his own sons.

• 42:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Uh, eventually got 20 years in federal prison. And then I believe life without parole in state prison.

• 42:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, his, his, um, the big key to his defense was his sons had given him a Father's Day card that said, you're the best dad around 10 years before. It didn't work on the jury.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  That's sorry. How could I have done this? Um, he served 16 years, died in prison of cancer.

• 42:49Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Uh, but then there's one final little potential twist here, right?

• 42:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So John Burgess had talked to a reporter while he was alive and he said, "You know what? This wasn't my idea. I was a patsy. I was a rube. I got dragged into this by a loan shark I owed 60 large to." That's what you say when you're a gambler. "And he recruited me to plant this bomb." And that really, the loan shark was working on behalf of Harvey's top executives and the mafia, who were conspiring to blow the place up so that they could collect the insurance money.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Looky there. You believe it?

• 43:26Josh Clark?

  Not at all. No.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Same.

• 43:28Josh Clark?

  No, and like, the thing that just like completely proves it is, yeah, they used insurance money to rebuild. It's like, no, that doesn't prove anything. Of course you're gonna use insurance money to rebuild. It doesn't mean there is a conspiracy there.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Right. Is that place still there? Any idea?

• 43:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's still there. I think it's been updated even more since then. But yeah, as far as I know, Harvey's is still there.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Awesome. I don't know why, over the past two weeks, I never thought to look that up.

• 43:57Josh Clark?

  Me either. I'm almost positive, we'll have to leave it to Aaron Hagar to tell us whether it's there or not.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  Sweet, it is. I'm looking at a picture of it. It's definitely been updated.

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  Well, while you're online, why don't you look at eBay and see if there's any, like, "I got bombed at Harvey's" t-shirts still around?

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. Well, if there are, I'm not gonna tell you. I'm just gonna get you one for Christmas.

• 44:19Josh Clark?

  Fair enough. I like that a lot. That's a good plan. Well, since Chuck said what he's gonna get me for Christmas, and I realized, man, I've gotta figure out what to get Chuck for Christmas, it's time for listener mail.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  You just got me a great record.

• 44:34Josh Clark?

  Which one? Oh, the Bill Evans one, yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:37Josh Clark?

  You like it? Have you listened to it yet?

• 44:39Speaker 02

  I love it. I mean, hey, it's Bill Evans, but it's just, yeah, it's good. Very evocative of changing the seasons, which I think was the whole point.

• 44:47Josh Clark?

  For sure. I'm glad you liked it.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  All right. Hey, guys, after listening to the Introvert Extrovert episode, I thought I'd reach out because Chuck At one point talked about finding ways to discipline his child by removing fun activities. I don't remember saying that, but I guess-

• 45:06Josh Clark?

  Oh, you were so mad, you were frothing at the mouth? I've never heard you more angry.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  You don't even really do that, so I'm not sure if I may have been kidding or not. Anyway, I'm a third grade teacher, because this is like a tip here, so we gotta read the tips. I'm a third grade teacher on a reservation and with 16 kids in my class, I have never had to use discipline. My classroom functions like a well-oiled machine due to a type of behavior management known in the educational world as PBIS, Positive Behaviors and Supports. It's a way to manage challenging child behavior solely, solely through the use of using praise and rewards.

• 45:43Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Can easily be applied in the context of raising your own child, says Anthony.

• 45:48Josh Clark?

  Especially if you want to raise a psychopath.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  This is a huge topic and one that is near and dear to my heart. I thought it might be incredibly useful for all the parents out there who, like Chuck, struggle to find a way to manage their child's behavior through conventional discipline.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  Man, this guy's scoring all over you, Chuck.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  A little bit. This is Anthony. You guys rock. Thanks for all the wonderful knowledge and hilarious dialogue.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Want to be super clear, Anthony, we don't struggle to find a way to manage her behavior. She's a good kid. And not to say that kids who have trouble behaving are bad kids at all. Everyone has their challenges as kids and parents, but it's not too bad. And I don't know that this PBIS would work necessarily in my household, but hey, I mean, we already do that kind of thing, but I'll ramp it up and see if that helps.

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  There you go. Run an experiment, Chuck, in true SYSK fashion.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Sure. I'm curious, though, because Anthony didn't say if Anthony had kids.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  I will say that the way kids behave for teachers is not at all related to how they behave for parents a lot of times.

• 46:56Josh Clark?

  I can imagine, for sure.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I'm curious.

• 46:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, if you guys listening out there, try this. Let us know if it works or what. And also, Anthony, thank you very much for writing in, Anthony. That was great. So if you want to be like Anthony, you can write in too, to [email protected].

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 47:33Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 48:04Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection, inflammation

• 48:49Speaker 04

  in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 49:05Speaker 05

  Hello?

• 49:06Speaker 06

  Hey, it's me, your wallet.

• 49:08Speaker 05

  Oh, hey.

• 49:09Speaker 06

  I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week?

• 49:12Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 49:13Speaker 06

  Really?

• 49:14Speaker 05

  Yep. I'm shopping at Food Lion.

• 49:16Speaker 06

  Wait, you mean low prices?

• 49:17Speaker 05

  And MVP savings.

• 49:19Speaker 06

  Oh, you do care.

• 49:21Speaker 05

  Obviously.

• 49:22Speaker 06

  Okay, I feel better.

• 49:23Speaker 05

  Good. Now, let's go get some snacks.

• 49:27Speaker 07

  At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC, head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.