SYSK Gets Weird Playlist: What is Collective Hysteria?

Throughout the history of the world, there have been many cases of what is known as collective hysteria - groups of people, usually young women, who all exhibit the same physical symptoms of non-existent conditions. Is it psychosomatic? Is it group think? See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 1:34Speaker 01

  Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Stuff You Should Know Gets Weird playlist. This is another one of our quarterly playlists, everyone, that we compile because we found that people like us sort of grouping things and bucketing things and cataloging things into groups of 10 to 12. And I think we have 11 of them this time out. And we're getting started this week with the inaugural episode of the Stuff You Should Know Gets Weird playlist with our episode, What Is Collective Hysteria? So please give a listen and enjoy.

• 2:05Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com.

• 2:15Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me as always is Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's over there to the left, and that makes the Stuff You Should Know.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Got the A-Team.

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  In the hizzy.

• 2:29Josh Clark?

  I call face.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:32Josh Clark?

  I'm face.

• 2:33Speaker 01

  Oh, of course, your face. Look at you. I would be a combination of Murdoch and Mr. T, I think.

• 2:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Well, your hair is kind of spiky in the middle today.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Jerry, I don't know what she'd be.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  I guess she'd be the leader. She'd be Hannibal.

• 2:48Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:49Josh Clark?

  She is smoking a cigar right now.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  And wearing a black glove.

• 2:52Josh Clark?

  When did you start smoking cigars, Jerry?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  That's weird.

• 2:55Josh Clark?

  Very timely.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  I said A-Team. I don't want to slag off guest producer Noel. He's not exactly B-Team.

• 3:02Josh Clark?

  No.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  We'll just call ourselves the OGs.

• 3:05Josh Clark?

  Okay. Now that we have that established, we are the OGs.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  We need bowling shirts that say as much on the back. You feeling good?

• 3:14Speaker 01

  I'm feeling nauseous and dizzy.

• 3:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, Chuck, did you happen to see somebody else who is nauseous and dizzy?

• 3:22Speaker 01

  Well, Jerry was last week, and then a few more people in the office. So I just figured we all had the same thing.

• 3:27Josh Clark?

  All right, I'm going to diagnose this.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  It's called collective hysteria, also known, I think, more appropriately, as mass psychogenic disorder.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:38Josh Clark?

  I think when you add the word hysteria to this, it takes on certain dimensions that a lot of people could find very objectionable.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:46Josh Clark?

  You know, hysterics, hysteria, it's like...

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Dogs and cats living together.

• 3:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but I think it has, it has a definite gender-specific connotation to it from over the years. Like, women were supposedly very hysterical. So the idea of diagnosing somebody as hysterical under any circumstances is kind of a tad amount to panning, patting them on the head.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, here, nice lady, you're, you're just a little hysterical. You just go calm down and bake something.

• 4:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:18Josh Clark?

  Stop being crazy.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:20Josh Clark?

  No, mass psychogenic disorder instead is just kind of like, whoa, your brain just did something pretty neat.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  And that is the case for mass psychogenic disorder, if you ask me. In this article, Chuck, written by Jacob Silverman.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Jeopardy champion.

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, he, yeah, yeah, he won on Jeopardy. That makes him a champion, right?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. He wasn't like the ultimate champion, but he won a couple of episodes.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  Right, which is why they should have a word for, I guess, like, champion is like the one who won it all.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Ken Jennings.

• 4:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or Watson.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Who's that?

• 4:54Josh Clark?

  The IBM computer.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, sure.

• 4:58Josh Clark?

  So Jeopardy winner Jacob Silverman wrote this article years back, and he did a pretty great job of citing a contemporary outbreak of mass psychogenic disorder that had been going on around that time down in Mexico, down Mexico way, in Chalko, Mexico, at a boarding school there. It apparently was a girls' boarding school, and the girls that went to school there were ages 12 to 17. And all of a sudden, they started, well, there was an outbreak.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:28Josh Clark?

  A weird outbreak. There was vomiting, I believe, trouble walking. There was fever.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:37Josh Clark?

  That's weird.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Nausea.

• 5:39Josh Clark?

  And so the, the people running this boarding school were like, what's going on? This is not good.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:46Josh Clark?

  And they had no idea. The girls went on Christmas break for 10 days, came back, and the thing just took off again like wildfire.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, 600 of the 3,600 girls showed these symptoms, and nobody could figure it out. They did a lot of tests. They brought in people to like, check out the facilities and because, as you'll see, there's a trend there. You know, here in the West, they start to blame it usually on, like, environmental poisoning of some kind.

• 6:15Josh Clark?

  Right. You know, there's some sort of toxin present that has poisoned everybody.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  But they didn't find anything there. And eventually, they said, this is, what'd you call it? Psychosomatic?

• 6:28Josh Clark?

  Mass psychogenic disorder.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Okay, mass psychogenic disorder.

• 6:31Josh Clark?

  But no, that is one of the, one of the names. It's mass psychogenic disorder, collective hysteria, mass hysteria, or mass psychosomatic reaction.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. They're all saying the same thing.

• 6:42Josh Clark?

  They are.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Which is, you're not, well, I was about to say, you're not really sick, but that is not exactly true, because that's one thing that differentiates this from something that's just in your head, is you actually do manifest physical symptoms.

• 6:53Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. There's this article written by a M.D. named Timothy F. Jones from the Tennessee Department of Health, way back in the heady days of 2000, the year 2000, the future.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 7:05Josh Clark?

  And he writes that you, if you are experiencing mass psychogenic disorder, it is not just in your head, that the symptoms that you have are actually very real. Even though there's no toxic cause, they couldn't find some sort of environmental poisoning or anything like that, the symptoms are extremely real.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:25Josh Clark?

  It's just psychosomatic. It's just basically the brain has been tricked into causing this response.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this has happened, they've documented about 80 cases throughout history, and apparently the National Institutes of Health gets about two cases per week reported.

• 7:43Josh Clark?

  But, um... Which is, I mean, like, that's, that's way more

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:47Josh Clark?

  common than, than you would think, you know?

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would think there'd be more than 80, because, I mean, these have happened. If you go back and look at, I mean, there's all sorts of crazy lists on the internet about these cases that date back to like, the 14th century.

• 8:00Josh Clark?

  Medieval dancing mania was one of them.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, the dancing plague.

• 8:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's in there.

• 8:06Josh Clark?

  The Salem witchcraft trials.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:08Josh Clark?

  Or the Salem witchcraft, I guess what led to the trials was supposedly attributed to this kind of thing.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. One weird thing about this condition is, more times than not, it is, affects females.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  And young females, even more specifically, teenagers or even younger.

• 8:30Josh Clark?

  Which is, as far as it goes right now, inexplicable. And it's kind of a prickly issue, you know? Like, again, you kind of come back to the idea of calling it hysteria.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:42Josh Clark?

  You know, the fact that it does tend to afflict women or girls more than, than boys, is apparently one means of diagnosing psychogenic disorder, mass psychogenic.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like, one of the first things they'll say is, like, all this, the sickness is happening in this place, the school, wherever. And the doctor will say, is it a bunch of girls?

• 9:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  And then that will clue them in that, hey, this might be what we're dealing with here.

• 9:07Josh Clark?

  And the, but the problem is, is no one has any idea why. And there've been explanations of things like...

• 9:15Josh Clark?

  I guess girls, this is, this is girls culturally acceptable outlet for raging against the patriarchy.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 9:24Josh Clark?

  Even if they don't necessarily feel that that's what they're doing, this is their, their, uh, this is the symptoms of that, that's one.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought this was a pretty interesting part. What article, was that from Slate?

• 9:36Josh Clark?

  Uh, there was, uh, yeah, one called, um, Masseria in Upstate New York by Ruth Graham was on Slate. That was a good one.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  It was a really good one. And we'll get to that case in a sec, but, um, I thought it was pretty interesting. In one part it says, um, and this is a quote from someone writing about something and said, in form, if not in conscious intent, it is to protest the sexual repressiveness, rigid double standard of female teen culture. Um, but they were writing about Beatlemania.

• 10:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Which is interesting because it's, sort of has a similar vibe of, uh, young ladies being repressed, um, not having an outlet. And so they see the Beatles and they go berserk.

• 10:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  And faint and cry and scream.

• 10:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Uh, collectively. Whereas boys, they're more prone to just act out if they're not feeling good. Girls are trained to keep things inward. And they also point out that, uh, ladies and, and young ladies are more prone to seek a doctor's help for something. Uh, they say that may account for the bias right there.

• 10:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Like guys just won't go to the doctor.

• 10:36Josh Clark?

  Exactly. You have to be careful though, in, in just diagnosing mass psychogenic disorder, you physicians out there who are listening that encounter a case like this, um, it, just by basing it on the fact that it is affecting more girls than boys, because there's at least one case in Great Britain where, uh, I think girls were afflicted by more than half, more than double the number of girls were afflicted by this. And it turned out that there were tainted cucumbers being served in, in the lunchroom.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And everyone knows boys hate cucumbers.

• 11:08Josh Clark?

  And so, I mean, this is-

• 11:09Speaker 01

  So they didn't eat it.

• 11:10Josh Clark?

  Right. But this is one of the issues with dealing with, um, mass psychogenic disorder in that it looks and acts a lot like some sort of weird epidemic. That basically it looks like, uh, either a, um, something like bioterrorism.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  Uh, a rapidly spreading affection, infection, or affection if it's Beatlemania.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:34Josh Clark?

  And then acute toxic exposure.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 11:36Josh Clark?

  That's what it looks like. It's like one person gets sick. This is your index case.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:41Josh Clark?

  And all of a sudden, everyone around them suddenly has the same symptoms.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's, like you said, it's super dangerous to just dismiss that as, oh, it's all in your head, silly little ladies. Uh, you can't do that because what if it is something for real? Uh, but it, it's also a double edged sword as that doctor pointed out. Um, you start ordering batteries of tests and it, it can go both ways. It can, um, what the old saying is if you order enough tests, you're going to find something.

• 12:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  So it can fuel that fire, but you also can't not run any test and just dismiss it. Uh, so it's a very fine line that physicians walk, uh, when dealing with stuff like this, for sure.

• 12:21Josh Clark?

  Indeed. Apparently, um, study of mass psychogenic disorder has found that it's more prevalent in isolated communities.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:31Josh Clark?

  And in situations where, um, there are highly rigid, formalized, structured rules.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Like a Catholic school in Mexico.

• 12:41Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:42Josh Clark?

  Um, or again, um, Salem, Massachusetts in the 17th century.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:46Josh Clark?

  You know? Um, and apparently between 1973 and 1993, half of all the outbreaks of psychogenic, or psychogenic illness took place in schools.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:59Josh Clark?

  So that's possibly in part by, due to kids being susceptible to it more.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:09Josh Clark?

  Um, but also because of that, that rigid, formalized structure.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's also usually a top down effect, like it'll start with a teacher or an older student, and then the younger students follow suit, which if you're talking influence, uh, would make sense for sure.

• 13:26Josh Clark?

  There was one very famous case. Um, apparently there's not very many actual academic studies on this.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:33Josh Clark?

  But there's one that came out of the New England Journal of Medicine.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:37Josh Clark?

  Um, that, that described a case in 1998 in Tennessee where a teacher noticed, um, some weird gas odor, a gassy odor.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:49Josh Clark?

  Uh, like the chemical kind.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Not like the guy on the front row tooted.

• 13:54Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:55Josh Clark?

  Um, and she apparently started suffering symptoms. Uh, and all of a sudden, uh, like 180 students and teachers had to go to the emergency room. The school was shut down for two weeks. They did all this environmental testing, couldn't find anything.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:12Josh Clark?

  And finally traced it back to, um, psychogenic, a mass psychogenic disorder. That's what did it.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  And then everyone, in most of these cases, we should point out, everyone starts feeling better.

• 14:25Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Like in Mexico and then the school in Tennessee, it's, it, it's not like they went on to die or anything.

• 14:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So in the school in Mexico, the, these girls were at a boarding school.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:37Josh Clark?

  They were only allowed to see their parents, I think, like three times a year.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. They couldn't even call. It's like, it sounds more like a prison.

• 14:43Josh Clark?

  Right. No phone calls. They were allowed letters. When they went home, immediately their symptoms cleared up.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:50Josh Clark?

  The problem is that doesn't automatically say, oh, well, it's obviously mass psychogenic disorder. It could be an environmental toxin that they are being exposed to still.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:58Josh Clark?

  Uh, at the school and were, were removed from, but I think the, the, um, definite prognosis is mass psychogenic disorder in this case.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  That's right. What we're talking about is a sort of version of the nocebo effect, which we've talked about before, and we will get, uh, into that right after this break.

• 15:22Speaker 04

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• 17:39Speaker 01

  So the nocebo effect, we talked about that in what?

• 17:44Josh Clark?

  The placebo effect.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that makes sense.

• 17:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  I was trying to be more clever, thought we were more clever than that.

• 17:50Josh Clark?

  No.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Uh, nocebo, I think we said in that other podcast too, is Latin for I shall harm. And that's basically, uh, whereas you take a placebo thinking it's going to help you out, and it does help you out.

• 18:01Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Uh, because the mind is powerful. The nocebo effect is thinking something bad will result. Like my teacher's getting sick, I think I feel a little sick too. And then, oh wait, my neighbor's feeling a little sick, I think I'm feeling a little sick too.

• 18:14Josh Clark?

  Or this, this drug trial that I'm on. I was told that I could possibly get some sort of gastrointestinal distress.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  Hmm?

• 18:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And even though I've been given a sugar pill.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:26Josh Clark?

  I'm now going.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Hmm?

• 18:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Because of my mind, because of the nocebo effect.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Uh, there was a famous, uh, experiment or case from 1886 where there was a woman who had a rose allergy and they showed her an artificial rose and she began to, I guess it was convincing.

• 18:43Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  And she began to have her allergic reaction. And they said, aha, it's fake and you're faking. And, uh, she said, oh, well, I think I'm feeling better now. And supposedly that cured her of her real allergy to real roses.

• 19:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  I couldn't find a lot to back that up, but it is a story.

• 19:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, no, that's a, I mean, it was in, I can't remember the journal, but it was like, oh yeah, it was a real deal thing. And I don't, I didn't get to the bottom of why they presented this woman with a fake rose or whatever, but they definitely did, and this definitely happened.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:23Josh Clark?

  And even the author of the study was saying like, this woman, she wasn't faking.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 19:30Josh Clark?

  It was like she had real symptoms.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Sure, hives are hives.

• 19:34Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  You can see those.

• 19:36Josh Clark?

  I think they call it like a rose cold or something like that. You can get, you know, stuffy.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:42Josh Clark?

  Your eyes are watering, your nose is running, that kind of thing. And what's interesting is some researchers have studied the nocebo effect. And they basically have isolated this chemical that gets released when the nocebo effect's going on. And again, we should say it's not just making your nose runny or releasing histamines or anything like that. It's pain too, like you can, you can experience pain even though nothing's there to give you pain.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:13Josh Clark?

  Just because of the nocebo effect. What they found was a, I guess a hormone, I believe. Are you ready? I'm gonna try this one. Colacystokinin.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  That sounds great.

• 20:28Josh Clark?

  Thanks, man.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  I haven't looked at the word, but it sounds right.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Colacystokinin.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:34Josh Clark?

  Do you see it now?

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, that's totally right.

• 20:36Josh Clark?

  I totally did. So it's a hormone, right? And it gets released and it actually,

• 20:41Josh Clark?

  it helps you experience pain. So it's a nasty little hormone.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:46Josh Clark?

  But they found in testing with the nocebo effect, that if you block this, you can also block the nocebo effect. So that proves two things.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Does that block pain though?

• 20:55Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Like your pain receptors?

• 20:56Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  So does that mean if you slam your hand in a door, you won't feel it?

• 21:00Josh Clark?

  If you can block this.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 21:02Josh Clark?

  Yes. So if you can block colacystokinin.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:06Josh Clark?

  Yes, it will keep you from hypersensitivity to pain, I believe.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:11Josh Clark?

  And this guy named Fabrizio Benedetti, who I think was also in The Strokes, back in 1997.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  There was a Fabrizio, right?

• 21:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He, he was testing out the nocebo effect and found that if he told people that he was giving them an injection, which is, it's a pretty cruel test, but effective.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:30Josh Clark?

  These post-op people who had just come out of surgery were given an injection and told, this injection's gonna increase your pain in 30 minutes. I'm sorry, we have to give it to you. It's part of the procedure.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  He gave some people an injection of saline. And they reported an increase in pain.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  And they all went behind the two-way mirror and laughed?

• 21:51Josh Clark?

  Right. They're like, what a chump.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  White, watch.

• 21:54Josh Clark?

  Look at him writhing. Yeah. And then they gave somebody, like the other group, the control group, a chemical, an injection that blocks that pain, but they were told that it was going to increase their pain.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:07Josh Clark?

  But they were given a chemical that blocks colacystokinin. And the nocebo effect didn't take place. They didn't report an increase in pain.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Even though they were told they would?

• 22:17Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 22:18Josh Clark?

  So this guy's saying like, the nocebo effect is real. Like when, when they say it's not just in your head.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 22:26Josh Clark?

  You're experiencing the same thing as if you were experiencing somebody stabbing you.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Well, what is real, you know?

• 22:34Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  That's when you have to start asking yourself those deep philosophical questions.

• 22:37Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Interesting. There's another case that's, have you ever seen the movie Safe, the Todd Haynes movie with Julianne Moore?

• 22:47Josh Clark?

  No.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  It's from like the mid 90s and she played a lady that started to have environmental sickness just in the air. And she's got sort of like increasingly

• 23:01Speaker 01

  crazy as the movie went on, as far as scrubbing things and locking herself in her house and making her house a clean environment.

• 23:06Josh Clark?

  Sounds great.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  It was good. And there's, there's a true story though of a lady in London named Debbie Burd. She's a health spa manager that says that she's allergic to EMF, electromagnetic fields. And it's an actual thing now, you know, there's more than her claiming it's called ES, electromagnetic sensitivity, where she has basically transformed her house. She painted it black. She said she's allergic to computers, cell phones, microwaves. She had her house rewired to make it basically EMF-free. She and her husband sleep under a silver-plated mosquito net to keep out radio waves

• 23:49Speaker 01

  and covered all her windows with protective films. And she said she's feeling a lot better now.

• 23:54Josh Clark?

  So I saw that ES, electromagnetic sensitivity, that if you expose somebody to an electromagnetic field and then just tell them that you are and don't.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:06Josh Clark?

  They have the same reaction, which would suggest that it's, it's nocebo.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Well, it's super fascinating because you see cases like this, from that to like gluten sensitivity, becoming a big thing now. And people, some people contend that, oh, it's maybe a collective hysteria going on. And if you think you're gonna be sensitive to gluten, then you're gonna be sensitive to things that contain gluten. And I'm not saying that, people, because that's a very hot topic.

• 24:32Josh Clark?

  Sure it is.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  But some people have claimed that.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  Well, we'll talk a little bit more about things that exacerbate the mass psychogenic disorder and the nocebo effect, right after this.

• 24:53Speaker 04

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• 25:20Speaker 05

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• 27:12Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, back in 2007 in New Zealand.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  A drug called Eltroxen. It was a pretty widespread drug in New Zealand. It's a hormone replacement drug. And it was the only one that the government would pay for. So most people who were on this hormone replacement therapy were using Eltroxen. And it had been that way for like decades.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:34Josh Clark?

  It was just an established drug. GlaxoSmithKline.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  What was it for though?

• 27:38Josh Clark?

  Hormone replacement.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 27:39Josh Clark?

  GlaxoSmithKline, I think just those, there's no welcome involved. Changed just the, like the outer, the inert qualities of it, like the shape of the pill, the color.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:53Josh Clark?

  And I think that's about it. But the, the active ingredient was exactly the same in 2007. And when they released it, all of a sudden, some reports of bad side effects were starting to trickle in. And the government was like, wait, what's going on here? It got a little bit of media attention and more reports started trickling in.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:17Josh Clark?

  And then the media attention grew and the reports grew and grew. And apparently, the reporting of adverse effects of Eltroxen increased 2,000-fold in a year and a half.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Because of the look of the pill?

• 28:32Josh Clark?

  Because of the look of the pill.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:33Josh Clark?

  They went back and studied this and they found that in areas where there was more reporting about these adverse effects being reported for Eltroxen, the more adverse effects were being reported in that area. And that kind of reveals one of the risk factors for mass psychogenic disorder is the media. It's actually spread through the media most easily.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, they have a point though. I mean, I know in this article too, it points out that pills that are blue and green are usually associated with drowsiness.

• 29:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Pills that are orange or yellow are not. And I don't know if that's why they market it that way, or if it's the opposite, is we just see it that way because of products like NyQuil and DayQuil.

• 29:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  But the one that makes you sleepy is green and blue. And the one that keeps you awake, or not keep you awake, but doesn't make you drowsy is orange.

• 29:24Josh Clark?

  I thought about it. I think, I mean, what do you associate with like daytime, sunrise? Yellow, orange, red.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 29:31Josh Clark?

  What do you associate with nighttime? Like something tranquil, like blue. Yeah, Scotch, Scotch amber. Yeah, I mean, you think of, that's what I, I think it came from, I think the pills came after the association, rather than the other way around.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think I even, like when I get a prescription for something, when I see the pill, I make a judgment on it before I've even had it, just by saying, wow, look at that thing.

• 29:57Josh Clark?

  It's heavy.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a horse pill, or that's a capsule with, you know, powdery stuff inside. That's different than the chalky one. It's, I think you just make an association. I don't think I have any preconceived notions on what a larger pill will do to me.

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Or a capsule will do to me, other than a tablet. But I think it's interesting though, how you make these judgment calls.

• 30:20Josh Clark?

  But without even thinking about it.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  You know, I mean, like you're, you're, you probably don't sit there and look at a pill in your hand. You just take it and just make some sort of almost unconscious judgments about it.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it may remind you of another pill that helped you that you're not even remembering.

• 30:36Josh Clark?

  Exactly. So that would be placebo.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:39Josh Clark?

  That's great. Nocebo effect.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Not great.

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  Poses, no, and it poses a lot of problems. For instance, there was a study, I think in the 90s, that found that women who believed that they were prone to heart disease were four times likelier to die.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:57Josh Clark?

  Of heart disease than women who didn't believe they were prone to it, even though they had all the exact same risk factors, basically the same risk, risk factors. There was nothing differentiating these women aside from a belief that they were going to die from heart disease, or a belief that they weren't.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:13Josh Clark?

  And that led to a four time, fourfold increase in, in deaths.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:18Josh Clark?

  From that, just basically from a belief is what it suggests.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, well, it's sort of like the, the, I know it's kind of cheesy, but the PMA, the positive mental attitude. I think we've all know someone who walks around, oh, so and so sick. Oh, I know I'm gonna get it. I just know I'm gonna get sick. Or, you know, I just know I'm gonna get cancer because it runs in my family. That, I think that has an effect on things.

• 31:40Josh Clark?

  I, I have to agree. I know some of our more skeptical listeners who are pulling their hair out right now, but I totally agree with you.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:48Josh Clark?

  When we did our show in Toronto, on the way back, Yumi and I flew out of Buffalo. And I was feeling a little down, but like, at the point where I feel like you can talk yourself into staying healthy.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  Positive mental attitude, I guess is what you call it.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  PMA.

• 32:04Josh Clark?

  But we were leaving right at about dusk, and the sun was just beaming through the windows and illuminating every single.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 32:12Josh Clark?

  Microbe, visible microbe in the air.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:15Josh Clark?

  I could see them like, just going into my nose and my mouth. And I'm like.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 32:20Josh Clark?

  I couldn't stop. Like, I couldn't, I was like, I'm not gonna get sick. I'm not gonna get sick. And man, did I ever get sick.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:27Josh Clark?

  But I noticed that right when we took off, and, no, you know what it was? Somebody shut one of their, their window covers.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the shade.

• 32:37Josh Clark?

  Shade, exactly, is the word that I was looking for. Somebody shut their shade, and I couldn't see it anymore. And I immediately started to feel less symptomatic.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 32:46Josh Clark?

  Immediately. It was like turning off a light.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:49Josh Clark?

  And I still got sick, but I was just drowning in, in basically what my brain was interpreting is like, being assaulted by foreign invaders, which I am all the time.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  But I normally can't see them.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I've done, I do that all the time when I open my, the curtains in, in the bedroom. And I'll see, in the morning, I'll see that stuff in the air. And I just think, oh, man, that's what I'm walking around.

• 33:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Breathing in.

• 33:10Josh Clark?

  Breathing, yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Dog hair and cat hair and Emily hair.

• 33:15Josh Clark?

  So, your lungs are just chock full of it. So, one of the, one of the problems this poses Chuck for physicians is that we expect doctors, or we want doctors, to be transparent, to not lie to us.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've talked a lot about this lately, I feel like.

• 33:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we've talked a lot about diseases. Some of our hypochondriac listeners have been like, please, stop talking about diseases.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 33:41Josh Clark?

  Because now I've got Morgulans, I'm gonna have like, some sort of toxic exposure.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Toxoplasmosis.

• 33:48Josh Clark?

  Yep. And then very soon, leprosy. Spoiler. So, the, the problem is, is if you tell somebody that's going into surgery, hey, by the way, you know, you, you might have trouble walking.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:06Josh Clark?

  You might feel nauseous for the next six months. You, like, all this stuff that could be associated with, which we demand from our doctors.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:13Josh Clark?

  It's been shown that if you are fearful or in despair going into surgery, that's associated with longer healing times and a higher risk of post-operative infection.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:24Josh Clark?

  Right? So, if you have the nocebo effect, where doctors are saying, okay, if I tell somebody, and it's been proven time after time.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:32Josh Clark?

  That in drug trials, people who are still are given placebo, will drop out of drug trials because they're experiencing these negative side effects.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 34:43Josh Clark?

  Even though they're given the sugar pill.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:45Josh Clark?

  So if you're a doctor, and you, you know that you are telling somebody something that ultimately may end up harming them, and yet you've sworn an oath to do no harm, you've got a conundrum going on right now.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:57Josh Clark?

  And that's what the nocebo effect poses. It's the problem the nocebo effect poses for modern physicians. Like, how much should they tell you?

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:05Josh Clark?

  If you're gonna tell somebody that they're gonna feel nauseous for six months, even though they probably won't.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:11Josh Clark?

  Should you tell them and give them a chance to, to basically have the psychosomatic symptom?

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Or tell them they're gonna feel great.

• 35:19Josh Clark?

  Well, that's another one. Somebody says the solution to this is just frame it differently.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:23Josh Clark?

  Like, don't say there's a chance you're gonna have nausea for six months. Say, half of a percent of patients who go through the same procedure that you're about to go through have nausea for six months. 99.5% don't.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  You're giving them the same information, it's just frame more positively.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that one doctor who wrote the article on collective hysteria said, what he recommends is not naming the illness.

• 35:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Said that can help out. Because as soon as you give something a name, then it just instantly, you know, you have something, you can call it, and everyone's calling it that, or the media picks up on it.

• 36:02Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  And it's a thing.

• 36:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that's actually, again, one of the, one of the risk factors in the spread of mass psychogenic illness, is the larger the response, the emergency medical response to it.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:14Josh Clark?

  And then hence, the larger the media response to it, the larger the outbreak tends to be. It's called line of sight exposure.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:22Josh Clark?

  Just knowing somebody is sick, or seeing somebody sick, can give you the same symptoms.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  I'm sure if you see a news story that all the other news agencies are running that says, there's been some weird chemical leak in the air in Atlanta, people are gonna start walking around and coughing.

• 36:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  And saying, yeah, I'm not feeling so good. I have a bitter taste in my mouth.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  There's microbes everywhere.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Well, here's a case from that article you sent, that I think is super fascinating. The one in upstate New York.

• 36:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Because it is not a rash, or a cough or nausea. It is Tourette's Syndrome. A 16 year old young lady named Lori Bronwell, what year was this? A couple of years ago?

• 37:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, not too long ago. I think 2012.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  In Corinth, New York, was at her school's homecoming dance and lost consciousness. This is after she had head banged at a concert.

• 37:17Josh Clark?

  Sorry, man. I thought you were gonna leave out like, the best part.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was head banging at a concert. I wish I knew what concert that was, so bad.

• 37:23Josh Clark?

  Me too. I didn't find it anywhere.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Apparently passed out there and had passing outfits. Involuntary twitching and clapping started, twisting her hair, fluttering her fingers. Hey, hey, hey! Starting stuff like that.

• 37:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  And the doctor said, you know what? You've got Tourette's Syndrome. So Tourette's Syndrome is, is, we've had a podcast on it. It's a real thing.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  It was a great one, yeah.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  It's not psychosomatic.

• 37:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  But since that time, 14 other students, along with her, 13 girls and one boy, started exhibiting at Leroy Junior High School, I'm sorry, Junior Senior High School, started coming down with Tourette's.

• 37:59Josh Clark?

  Right, which is not contagious.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  It is not contagious at all. Erin Brockovich got on the case, famous environmental activist, and she said, no, I think this has got to do with this train derailment from 1970 that dumped cyanide all over this town.

• 38:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  And I didn't see where they found any legitimate effects.

• 38:21Josh Clark?

  Right. Again, that's the confounding thing about mass psychogenic disorder is that it is still possible that there is some weird toxin in the environment that is causing this. Like, maybe there was exposure to cyanide that got in these people's brains and all gave them Tourette's. And if you stand back and look at it, you're like, Tourette's Syndrome isn't contagious. That doesn't mean that you can't all come down with Tourette's Syndrome from exposure to a toxin. It's just still, it's this X factor that's out there that you can't just necessarily rule out with confidence.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I believe in that case too, the, those 14 students didn't end up with Tourette's Syndrome.

• 39:01Josh Clark?

  That was a good episode, man. Loved Tourette's Syndrome one.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's an oldie.

• 39:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Oldie but a goodie.

• 39:08Josh Clark?

  And it all came from head banging.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  That's how it started.

• 39:12Josh Clark?

  That mess.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  At a Nickelback show.

• 39:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, cuz Corinth is near Canada. Canada doesn't let Nickelback out any longer.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Oh, really? Are they caged in there?

• 39:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Nice. Uh, there's another case of the toxic lady. Did you hear this one? In Riverside, California, a woman named Gloria Ramirez.

• 39:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  She was dubbed the toxic lady in 1994. Uh, she had cervical cancer and was being treated, and all the medical staff started to get sick that was treating her. This sounds gross, but they said her body exuded a garlicky fruity smell. And her blood had, uh, flecks of what looked like paper, um, which sounds kinda like morgulons, actually.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  You like that?

• 39:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  And they said that most of the people that got sick while treating her were women, uh, more women than men. And they all took, uh, blood tests and came back normal, and the health department said mass hysteria.

• 40:07Josh Clark?

  So that's funny cuz I looked, I remembered that story and I was like, I wonder if that was mass hysteria. And I looked it up and I found that, no, it was an environmental toxin.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Oh, it was?

• 40:16Josh Clark?

  That's what I found.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  So they called it mass hysteria at the time and then later found out?

• 40:19Josh Clark?

  I think like a year or two later, she was using some sort of salve or something on her skin. And they think that it interacted with her biochemistry and really did produce tox- a toxic gas.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  She said, it may be this fruit garlic salve.

• 40:33Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. That's interacting badly with my pancreas.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Oh, well, uh, this list needs to be updated.

• 40:40Josh Clark?

  That, dude, that is a fascinating case.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  It is.

• 40:43Josh Clark?

  Like, people got really sick from that.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  I think I remember hearing about that, too.

• 40:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Well, I'm glad they found a real cause in that case.

• 40:49Josh Clark?

  From what I understand, but that's, that's, that's the point. Like,

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:52Josh Clark?

  You can say, well, obviously, there's, women were more affected than men.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:57Josh Clark?

  Right? Well, is that because there's more women in the nursing profession and there were more nurses in the room?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 41:03Josh Clark?

  There's a lot of different things you have to take into account before you just write it off. Sometimes it is real, like sick building syndrome.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:10Josh Clark?

  That's a tough one because in, after the, uh, OPEC oil embargo, apparently people started designing buildings to be more airtight. So your ventilation, ventilation system was really important.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:24Josh Clark?

  And these buildings haven't aged necessarily very well, so the ventilation system is not doing what it's supposed to any longer. And so they think possibly that's leading to what we know as sick building syndrome, which is malaise.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  It's when you don't feel good when you go to work.

• 41:38Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Which is everybody every day.

• 41:39Josh Clark?

  But some studies have found, like, no, that is the better predictor of sick building syndrome.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:45Josh Clark?

  Is job stress or job dissatisfaction.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:49Josh Clark?

  Um, if you have a building full of people who don't like their jobs, you're gonna have a building full of people with sick building syndrome. But if you go on to say, like, a, a local government's website or whatever, and you look at sick building syndrome, it's, it's treated as a real thing.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it definitely affects your gastrointestinal like stress does.

• 42:06Josh Clark?

  Well, also apparently it can, um, set off bouts of asthma.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:10Josh Clark?

  Um, which is another reason why they think it might have something to do with, like, volatile organic compounds in the ventilation system. Or new carpeting, that kinda stuff.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, off gassing, man. You, you smell that stuff when you open up a new product, right?

• 42:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  There's also the dancing plague, which we mentioned briefly.

• 42:25Josh Clark?

  Tell me about it.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Uh, Frau Trofia, uh, July 14th, 15, 18, went out on the streets of Strasbourg, France and started dancing, even though there was no music. And dancing like a maniac for three straight days, and all these people started dancing with her.

• 42:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Saying this is a good time. Um, said within a month, a hundred people were, uh, dancing with her and couldn't stop. And, uh, hyperventilating, hallucinating, some dropped dead of heart attack and stroke and exhaustion. And the, uh, authorities said, let's just hire a band and let them dan- dance it out.

• 43:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Cuz they've got the hot blood, is what they called it.

• 43:02Josh Clark?

  All right.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  And so they did, and, um, a lot of people died as a result. It said 400 people in the end were struck, uh, I don't think they died, but were dancers.

• 43:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  And then it just stopped. And that's one they blame, a lot of people blame on ergot poisoning, which we've mentioned before.

• 43:21Josh Clark?

  I always go with ergot poisoning.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, back then.

• 43:23Josh Clark?

  Those people were clearly tripping on something.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  They got the hot blood.

• 43:26Josh Clark?

  But what it sounds like you just described is basically how Tom Hanks invented jogging in the 70s.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Jogging?

• 43:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah?

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He just started running and people started following him.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  I, I wish that part had been cut out of that movie.

• 43:38Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought that it was a weird thing that should have been on the editing room floor. It really kinda derailed things for a while for me.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  I don't think that movie's aged well, though.

• 43:50Josh Clark?

  I haven't seen it forever.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Other people say, though, that it was, uh, Sid and Ham's chorea. Uh, disorder, uh, linked to strep throat and rheumatic fever that causes dance-like twitches. Um, and then, of course, modern medical historians say it was mass psychosis.

• 44:05Josh Clark?

  I would go with that one.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, but back then it made more sense, though, when, during the Salem witch trials and before they knew anything about medicine. And you could just say, you got the hot blood, or you're having the fits, like, these modern cases.

• 44:20Josh Clark?

  Possessed you?

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. These modern cases are the ones that really freaked me out because so much is explainable now.

• 44:26Josh Clark?

  Well, here's the thing, though, Chuck. We've always explained it with something that comes easily to mind. So back in the day, before science and medicine,

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:35Josh Clark?

  it was the devil possessing you.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:37Josh Clark?

  And don't think that people weren't freaked out when they thought that the devil was there in town possessing people. In the same way that, you know, you're freaked out by the idea that it's cyanide in the soil

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:48Josh Clark?

  from a train derailment from 1970.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Or Beatle mania.

• 44:51Josh Clark?

  It's just, exactly.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:52Josh Clark?

  Which is the deadliest of all the manias. But it's just as real.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:57Josh Clark?

  To the experiencer. And it all comes down to people just basically being sick of the establishment and letting loose for a while.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Don't wanna go to work.

• 45:07Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  So I'll dance.

• 45:08Josh Clark?

  You got anything else?

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Uh, no, sir.

• 45:11Josh Clark?

  Uh, if you wanna know more about collective hysteria, which is the name of this article, type those words in the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com and it will bring it up. And I said, "search bar," which means it's time for listener mail.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  I'm gonna call this, um, "episode on grief." We got a lot of great feedback and that continue, uh, they continue to roll in.

• 45:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Hey, guys, just stumbled upon your podcast through my TuneIn radio app. Uh, I guess that's a mini plug.

• 45:39Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  We're available there now. Um, I've devoured almost all of, uh, the 600-plus shows. I may be a new listener, but I'm already a lifelong fan. So why I'm writing in, guys, is I lost my twin sister back in 2010. Uh, it was a rough time because as a fraternal twin, me being the boy, I looked at her not only as a sister, but as a mother and friend, too. Long story short, I wanted to comment on the grief show some time ago. I've dealt with my grief, uh, through my artwork. Uh, I'm a small-town artist from Johnson City, Tennessee. And I rarely can get noticed or any attention with my art. I wanted to share my new piece I've just finished, uh, after listening to How Comic Books Work.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  I'm a huge fan of Marvel Comics, and I hope you both enjoy this. And he sent this really cool, I think it was like every member of the Marvel Universe had to be in this picture that he did.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  I didn't see that one.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  It's really, really neat, just jam-packed full of, uh, Marvel comic heroes and villains. Um, so Josh and Chuck, thanks for the inspiration, laughs, and getting through every day at the office. Uh, P.S., my twin Jessica passed away from epilepsy, actually, a condition called SUDEP, sudden unexplained death of epilepsy. My mother is trying to raise awareness because November is epilepsy awareness month. So if you guys wouldn't mind mentioning this on the show, she would be so happy for that.

• 46:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Also, an epilepsy show would be cool, too. Um, not a lot is discussed about it, and that is Jason Flack. And Jason, uh, wrote you back, "That is heartbreaking about your twin sister."

• 47:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it is.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  "Very sorry to hear that." Um, and we will definitely do a show on epilepsy, and since this is November, though, uh, people should go out and find out what they can during National Epilepsy Month.

• 47:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  We'll, we'll follow up with the show. I don't know if it'll be in November, but we'll get to that one for sure.

• 47:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  And thanks for that piece of art. And if anyone's interested in a great comic book artist from Johnson City, Tennessee, he's a lot worse than Jason Flack.

• 47:29Josh Clark?

  Jason, thank you very much for sharing that with everybody. That means a lot to us. Uh, if you want to share with us and all of our listeners out there, you can tweet to us at S Y S K Podcast. You can join us on Facebook.com/StuffYouShouldKnow. You can send us an email with attached artwork to [email protected]. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 48:00Josh Clark?

  For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit HowStuffWorks.com.

• 48:11Josh Clark?

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• 48:46Speaker 04

  Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find the haunted library wherever you get your podcasts.

• 49:12Speaker 05

  This episode's sponsored by Ridwell. Most of us recycle what we can, but plastic bags, snack wrappers, and tons of other stuff still ends up in the trash. Ridwell fixes that. We give you a bin for your porch and pick it up every two weeks. You fill it with the items your curbside recycling doesn't take, like plastic film, old clothes, batteries, light bulbs, and more, and we handle the rest. And unlike most recycling programs, Ridwell carefully tracks where your items go and reports back on what actually gets recycled. Join the community that's kept 40 million pounds out of landfills. Get started at Ridwell.com.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.