Smile

They say that smiling requires fewer muscles than frowning, so why not smile? That doesn’t seem to be true, or at least unproven, and there is lots more about smiling that will keep you glued to your earbuds in this fun episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 0:45Josh Clark?

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• 1:29Josh Clark?

  Call 1-800-GRanger, click Granger.com, or stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:47Josh Clark?

  Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. This is Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  What in the world is that?

• 1:57Josh Clark?

  I'm smiling from ear to ear. I'm grinning and when I grin, my teeth come together like a bear trap.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Well, if you're smiling, I bet it's because we are headed out to sea, everybody.

• 2:11Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Uh, on a five nights, adults only. Rar. Voyage with Virgin Voyages. This is October 2nd through 7th. Uh, from New York City to Bermuda, we will be doing our live show and we will be joined by our colleagues and our old pals. Stuff they don't want you to know and stuff mom never told you.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  That's right. So, uh, we are going to be there from October 2nd to 7th. Uh, we're going to be on that boat to Bermuda, from New York and back. And you can get more information where Chuck?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  At virgin voyages.com slash stuff. Come and hang out with us on a boat.

• 2:48Josh Clark?

  Very nice. Yeah. I think we should specify, um, you shouldn't expect to be able to get rar with us because you know, we're happily married.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. And what happens at sea doesn't just stay at sea. That travels back home and you get divorced.

• 3:03Josh Clark?

  That's right. Yeah. And you have to go to the doctor sometimes too.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't want that.

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  So we're talking today about smiling. I think it's appropriate that I said, I'm happily married because Yumi actually requested this so long ago. Then I went to her last week and was like, do you remember what, what prompted you to, to request smiling a long time ago? And she's like, I don't remember requesting smiling. So it'll forever be a mystery. But, um, I'm glad that we're doing this one because we've done like all sorts of other stuff, laughing, disgust, the scream. Um, uh, forgiveness, like there's just this whole like aspect of human personality suite that is just kind of slowly assembling into one great person, you know?

• 3:51Speaker 02

  That's right. Uh, and we did an episode in the early days, I think when we were about three years old, we were podcast toddlers.

• 3:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  On whether or not smiling makes you happy. So we're going to recover a bit of that toward the end.

• 4:02Josh Clark?

  A little.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Uh, but we should probably start out by, um, letting everyone know that you use muscles when you smile. It is all muscle movement. And if you want to compare a smile to like other dumb, boring muscles. The reason you can smile and make like weird kind of faces is because you have a lot of fast twitch myosin fibers in your face.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  And that's why you can like, that's why you can't make a face with your bicep.

• 4:30Josh Clark?

  Uh, I kinda can. It looks like a messed up face, but it's still, somebody would be like, I see the face in there. It looks a little like Mr. Bill.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  No, you can make a kick drum beat when you flex those babies.

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  That's with my other one. So like I'd make Mr. Bill's mouth open and closed to the kick drum beat from my other bicep.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Uh, but how do we compare to our primate friends?

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  Oh, well, actually, it turns out Chuck, I thought this was quite interesting that our primates are actually, our primate friends are actually more expressive facially because they don't speak.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 5:07Josh Clark?

  That's the, that's the idea behind the whole thing. We do know that primates typically are more expressive through their faces than humans are. And that the idea behind it or the explanation for it is that humans require more slow twitch muscles, the bigger muscles, to talk, to move our faces and in our mouths to talk, which primates don't have to do. So we essentially, basically our fast twitch muscles evolved into more slow twitch muscles. But we're still pretty expressive. So don't be too sad.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, if you've ever, you know, heard people say it takes more muscles to frown than it does to smile. Uh, first of all, lightly slap that person in the face with a feather.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Next, move along and say, you know what? Prove it. Because I looked and I couldn't, you know, it, first of all, it's a very nuanced thing. Like there are a lot of different smiles and a lot of different frowns.

• 6:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's a big point.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  And each of those different ones, like, you know, takes different muscles to make those. So for someone just to sort of flatly say, you know, it takes 22 muscles to, uh, smile and 100 to frown.

• 6:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Uh, that, that's, I can't, couldn't find anything that could verify that is true.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Or like, I guess the message that they're sending is don't use your muscles. It's better to not use your muscles.

• 6:27Josh Clark?

  Right. Why bother? Just smile. Yeah, it's funny. I looked all over too, and all I could find were dentists' websites, which were pretty confident about that.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  That's right. Well, four out of five were.

• 6:41Josh Clark?

  But you said that your, uh, your, that was great. Uh, you said that your, um, your smiles all include muscles, and not just yours Chuck, but all people's.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:51Josh Clark?

  And it includes a very particular muscle, um, I think one on each side, the zygomaticus major. These actually pull your, um, your, the sides of your mouth up. So I guess the Joker, um, when his face was slashed, it somehow made his zygomaticus major constantly contracted.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 7:16Josh Clark?

  I, I, I just want to say, I'm not sure what's wrong with me right now. I realize that I'm stammering, having a lot of trouble. Hopefully my brain will, um, reset while you're talking next now.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Oh, I haven't noticed anything. I think, I think you're doing great. So, uh, there are actual people who, and boy, they've done a lot of research on smiling and stuff as we go. Like you'll probably be astounded at how much time and money people have put into this kind of thing. Uh, but they have done research, uh, and actually sort of like coded the, the face and the system of muscles. Um, so they know like what each group does, uh, the facial action coding system, what it's called, the fax. Just the facts.

• 7:55Josh Clark?

  I'm going with faces.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, they couldn't come up with any?

• 8:00Josh Clark?

  Hmm. I think it's implied.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Okay. Uh, I'm going to go with just the faces then.

• 8:06Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  So they, like I said, they made various codes for these muscle movements and, uh, assigned like names to them. And they know that all smiles involve action unit 12, uh, which is both of those, uh, zygomaticus major muscles contracting. And, you know, you said they raise them up, or they also raise them out because you'll see when you smile, your smile, your mouth gets wider as well.

• 8:28Josh Clark?

  And the whole world smiles with you.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  That's right. But if you're really happy and you're not, and we'll talk about the different kinds of smiles, like including fake smiles. But if you're really genuinely happy with something and smiling from joy or, you know, being alive, that means your eyes are involved and that is Action Unit 6.

• 8:49Josh Clark?

  Yes. So a couple of things here. Action Unit 12, I think is the pinnacle of band names that we've ever covered.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  It's pretty darn good.

• 9:00Josh Clark?

  Not only is it a great name, if you dig into what it means, you're talking about smiling, it's the name for smiling. So that's pretty awesome. But it also has a built in abbreviation that's great, too. AU12. Maybe even AU12.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. So it looked good on a logo or whatever.

• 9:17Josh Clark?

  I really genuinely think that is the best band name we've ever stumbled upon.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  So did that just unseed Frozen Poop Knife?

• 9:26Josh Clark?

  I think so. They could go on tour together.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Does that mean we retire this bit?

• 9:32Josh Clark?

  I don't know, Chuck. It's possible.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Well, here's the deal. I think if we, if we don't retire it, we will just have to mention almost every time from now on, like, but it's no AU12.

• 9:44Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:45Josh Clark?

  But yes, all apologies to Frozen Poop Knife. We will, we'll never forget you and we'll bring you up still.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, they just kicked over their kick drum.

• 9:52Josh Clark?

  So, no, that was my bicep. So if you take Action Unit 12 and Action Unit 6 together, that's what's known as the Duchenne Smile. And we definitely talked about Guillaume Duchenne in our Can Smiling Make You Happy episode, right?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And in fact, I think we call them Duchaine because the translator spelled it wacky.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  How?

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, different things. Kane, K-A-I-N-E. Shane, S-H-A-N-E.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  It's two different names. Yeah, it's, you know, go AI translator, I guess.

• 10:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but we're gonna go with Guillaume Duchenne this time, who is a French neurologist. He also was dabbling with electricity and photography. I saw that he basically existed at this neat crossroad of three emergent sciences that were coming out at the same time. This guy put them all to use. And he stimulated people's facial muscles with electricity. There's an extensive set of photographs of him doing this to this poor guy. And this guy's making all these weird facial expressions and Duchenne is coding all of them. But it's kind of hysterical to think that like this guy's not purposely making these. He's being

• 11:17Josh Clark?

  zapped with electricity and that's what's making them because the the correct muscle combination is being zapped right then by Duchenne.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's pretty funny stuff. So he claimed, and this was sort of a, and I think people thought this is true for a while, was, you know, this notion that you can, you can tell a fake smile by the eyes. And that's sort of the dead giveaway. And he, he may have not reinforced it, but he may have sort of planted that seed when he said that the orbicularis oculi, which is action unit six that we talked about, the eyes, that would only contract due to the sweet emotions of the soul, which is a very nice thing to say. But it turns out that's probably not true.

• 12:00Josh Clark?

  No, people can, including Tyra Banks, can make yourself, or make themselves, I'm sorry, smile with their eyes. But there does seem to be some disagreement on whether that can fully be, ever fully be reproduced voluntarily. And I like to think that it can't be, that there's still some smile out there that's so genuine that it can't voluntarily be reproduced fully.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think what the deal is, is there are some people who are probably so good at the fake smile that you just don't realize it.

• 12:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, beware of those people.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  But both of those things can be true. I think what you said is definitely true.

• 12:39Josh Clark?

  Thanks, man. I want to say one other thing about AU six, action unit six. If you go and look at the faces coatings or facts, it's just like strips of like the the mouth or the eyes or something like that. And for action unit six, it is a strip of my eyes. It is very clearly, somebody took my photo and just cut out the eyes.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 13:05Josh Clark?

  And is just showing the eyes. It looks exactly like my eyes, dude. You should go look.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Send me a screenshot. I'm not gonna look it up.

• 13:12Josh Clark?

  Okay, I will eventually.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  That's the that's the agreement we came to.

• 13:16Josh Clark?

  Okay, I think that's fair enough.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Two guys who do research for a living, you can't make the other one look anything up.

• 13:22Josh Clark?

  No, we just send screenshot.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  So if we're talking about evolution, um, like it's a pretty human thing to just, you know, be alive in the world and smile because you're feeling good and having a good day. If you look at some something in the like a somebody from the primate kingdom, and you see that teeth like you've, man, I've seen those chimpanzees bear those teeth. And everyone's like, oh, they're so happy. And it that's actually not what they're trying to say to you. And it doesn't mean they're trying to kill you right then either. But it's a sign of submission, apparently.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  I don't know. I always I didn't never took it as they they always look stressed out to me. Like when I see a chimpanzee bear their teeth like that.

• 14:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I've seen them. It depends on, um, I think it depends on the rest of the face because I can bring to mind images of chimps doing that. The one I bring to mind more is Clyde from every which way but loose doing that orangutan.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 14:21Josh Clark?

  He definitely did that and he didn't seem stressed out, but they definitely played it like he was laughing or something like that. And he surely wasn't.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 14:28Josh Clark?

  One of the things about that, though, Chuck, is smiling through submission. That is that still survived into humans for sure. Like, that is something that we do. Not just to say like, you're an alpha, I'm a beta. But also to say like, hey, I just want to get along. No, no stress over here.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:49Josh Clark?

  Or, you know, to to to basically not be tense. Or if an awkward pause comes, both people might kind of smile or something like that. All of that is essentially the same thing as a chimp smiling to to signal submission.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. There was a paper in 1979, a pretty classic smiling paper, where these psychologists, Robert Kraut and Robert Johnston, they were. Notating how people reacted when they went bowling together and found they were more likely to smile when just like hanging out and talking than after getting a strike. Which like that totally tracks because like when you get a strike, you're supposed to act cool. Like you meant to do that. You're not supposed to turn around and go.

• 15:29Josh Clark?

  Right. For sure. Um, I read a little more about that study. One participant, Jesus, never smiled. And another participant, an Amish man named Ishmael smiled almost constantly.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Well, I think what we might want to talk about a little bit, and I know we've covered this before, uh, was baby smiling because it's about one of the cutest darn things in the world is when you see a little baby smile at you. Uh, that does happen very early. Uh, very newborn infants can smile. Um, but those are sort of just random smiles like they may have farted or something. Uh, and they're smiling not because it's funny. Uh, they'll learn that a little bit later. And not because they lit it on fire. They'll learn that probably in their tween years.

• 16:12Josh Clark?

  That's dangerous.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Is it really?

• 16:15Josh Clark?

  I've always heard. Why not?

• 16:17Speaker 02

  You never lit a fart?

• 16:19Josh Clark?

  I have, but I just escape by the skin of my teeth.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  It's usually just sort of a random occurrence when a very newborn baby smiles. About four to six weeks, they start smiling when they wake up and they see you or hear you, as we'll see. Uh, but it's still sort of indiscriminate. Um, it seems like the social smiling that starts at about six to 12 weeks when they're like, hey, I see mom or dad or, or whoever I like to see, or I hear their voice and that makes me happy.

• 16:49Josh Clark?

  Exactly. But apparently they're also, um, master manipulators because they've been found to time their smiles to maximize smiling from their caretaker. So like they'll give you a smile so that you'll smile at them for 30 seconds and they'll flash you another one. And there you go. You're smiling again. And they learn to do that like really early.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. I wonder if twins are ever like, hey, watch this.

• 17:11Josh Clark?

  Kind of, I'm sure. Um, did you see that, uh, that link I sent you to this or about the study about babies smiling in utero?

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:21Josh Clark?

  If you want your paper to, to make the national news, just make it on baby smiles. But this paper from 2022 in the Journal of Psychological Science, they gave, um, pregnant women, uh, carrot pills or kale pills. And when the, the women ate carrot pills, the babies smiled like 15, 20 minutes later as it was digested and reached them. When they ate kale, the babies grimaced.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  I wonder what they did when they gave them the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.

• 17:52Josh Clark?

  Uh, they just started doing 360s.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, they started breakdancing.

• 17:57Josh Clark?

  But one other thing about this study, Chuck, that one of the co-authors was named Jacqueline Bissette.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Uh, that's funny.

• 18:04Josh Clark?

  I mean, it's true, though. I think it's great.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  No, I know, but it's still funny, right?

• 18:08Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, yeah. I thought, I wonder though, if, if their parents were like, we love Charlie's Angels that much.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  I don't get the Charlie's Angels ref.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  Oh, Jacqueline Bissette was the, um, she was the best Charlie's Angel, if you ask me, one of the original three.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  She wasn't in Charlie's Angels?

• 18:28Josh Clark?

  Jacqueline Bissette?

• 18:30Speaker 02

  I don't know who you're thinking of, buddy.

• 18:32Josh Clark?

  All right. Now we do need to look something up. You go ahead.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Okay, I'll go ahead. All right. So, uh, I mentioned hearing and I planted a little seed there that a little infant, uh, baby hearing something, uh, could make them smile. And they know this stuff because, you know, they've done studies on whether smiles are innate or imitative. And so if you're going to do a study like this, you might want to study babies who are congenitally blind. And they have found that it really doesn't make a difference. Uh, uh, blind infants start to smile in response to that voice, just like sighted babies do. And they did another study of, uh, congenitally blind athletes at the Paralympic Games. And this one had, was from 23 different cultures, because as we'll see,

• 19:17Speaker 02

  different cultures, like smiles might mean different things. And it had the same, uh, they, they had the same spontaneous expressions as sighted counterparts sort of across the board.

• 19:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which is pretty awesome. Um, they also found that, uh, the children, uh, who were studied. I don't remember what study this was in, but basically they observed children who were given reasons to basically mask disappointment with a smile. And apparently, and this is for real, uh, like play schoolers or nursery schoolers, they, um, had them make lists of toys they wanted. And then they gave them a toy that they hadn't asked for. And the kid, the kid would mask their disappointment with a little smile. And they found that sighted and non-sighted kids basically made the same facial expressions in that situation, too.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Amazing. Did you look up Charlie's Angels?

• 20:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I did. I was hoping you would forget.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Jacqueline Smith?

• 20:13Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  You got Jacqueline right.

• 20:17Josh Clark?

  Well, we might just take out the whole thing.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 20:20Josh Clark?

  You never know.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  All right. Uh, well, I guess we'll see. We'll let the, the listener, um, decide.

• 20:27Josh Clark?

  I don't know if that's possible.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Well, not decide, but decide how they feel about it.

• 20:31Josh Clark?

  Okay. But they won't know about it if we took it out.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Well, but they wouldn't even hear what I just said then either.

• 20:38Josh Clark?

  No, we should leave this part in and really confuse everybody.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Uh, I brought up cultural differences. Jacqueline Smith is 80 years old.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  Oh, wow. How's she doing?

• 20:51Speaker 02

  She's doing great. Hey, listen, uh, I'm not one to comment on people's appearance because I know that's untoward.

• 20:56Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  But Jacqueline Smith does not look like any other 80 year old that I've ever seen.

• 21:00Josh Clark?

  She is the best angel. You, you agree, right?

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, she was my favorite. I think good actor. Uh, I think I had a pretty big crush on her.

• 21:10Josh Clark?

  Sure. I mean, for sure. I think everybody had a crush on all of the Charlie's Angels to some extent.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I'm, I'm with you. I think Jacqueline Smith was definitely the, the top angel.

• 21:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she was great in The Deep, too.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. That's a good movie.

• 21:25Josh Clark?

  I was trying to make a joke. I thought that was Jacqueline Bissette who was in The Deep.

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Oh, wait. She was in The Deep.

• 21:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 21:34Josh Clark?

  We're gonna take that part out, too.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Oh, God, Jerry's gonna have fun with this one. She's me like, oh, I'm gonna pass this one on to Ben. I've got stuff going on.

• 21:42Josh Clark?

  Can't you hear people being like, get back to smiling?

• 21:46Speaker 02

  I know. All right, back to smiling. I mentioned different cultures because, you know, there's the idea of like, what if I'm in a different culture and I like smile at someone? And that actually means like, I hate what you just fed me or something like that.

• 21:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  So they've done a lot of studying over the years. There's in the 60s, there was a psychologist named Paul Ekman, who did experiments where they just showed images of faces to different cultures and then like had them pick from a list on what emotion that was. And he was like, all right, here's what I came up with. There are six universal facial expressions, only six. Anger, disgust, enjoyment, fear, sadness, and surprise. Later, he said contempt. All right, there is a seventh. We'll add contempt. But a lot of people picked that apart because he, it was multiple choice. And they're like, it's probably a better study. And people have done it since. If you just show them pictures and have them like write down what that is and not to pick from your list.

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  Right. And he also was over their shoulder pointing to the correct answer whenever they were taking the test. But that's not to say that he was wrong. It does turn out that subsequent research and a lot of it has essentially found that, yeah, there's pretty much universal agreement on what facial expressions mean. There's a lot of disagreement, but for the most part, you're going to find the vast majority. Look at someone smiling and associate that with happiness.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's some nuance in there depending on where you are. Interestingly, they did find that people smile more in countries that have a lot of immigration as a whole, like countries that are like the United States that are formed from people from all over the world.

• 23:29Josh Clark?

  Melting pot.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, like Brazil is another one. And some researchers have put out, and it makes sense to me that like, yeah, when you have a bunch of people living in a melting pot, people generally want to get along. So they're probably using a smile more than you might in a country where like most people are from there.

• 23:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's like a nonverbal way of saying like, hey, friendly. I'm friendly, too. Great.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it totally makes sense, I think.

• 23:54Josh Clark?

  Also, this one I was unsure about. Countries with low population densities. They have more room to smile? I don't know. Or they just have fewer other people to deal with. Those are my two interpretations.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree.

• 24:08Josh Clark?

  But like you said, there are some nuance to the whole thing. In East Asia, specifically in Japan and China, they basically emphasize the eyes. Like, that's where the smile lay in Action Unit 6. Me, essentially. And they don't even apparently use the curved line for a smile on their emoticons. It's just the eyes as triangles, basically simulating Action Unit 6.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's kind of fun. Another thing that smiling conveys, or at least, I don't know if it conveys it, but people take it this way, is they find people not only happier, but more competent and attractive generally when they're smiling.

• 24:51Josh Clark?

  Sure, give me a smile, baby.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Oh, no, no, don't say that. In 2015, there was a study that showed photographs of people with different expressions to 44 different cultures around the world. And they found that, like in China, in Germany, in Egypt, they associated a smile with intelligence. But in Japan, France, and Iran, I guess I'm on that sort of A-sound, they thought it meant, or at least they correlated it with lower intelligence.

• 25:21Josh Clark?

  Like, they think you look dippy if you have a big smile in those countries.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  I guess it depends on the person in the smile.

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Like Cletus the slack-jawed yokels, big toothy smile? Like, I could see that.

• 25:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. What's interesting, too, is there's different, different countries or cultures have agreed at different periods of time, too, as we'll see.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 25:44Josh Clark?

  Let's take a break because I think that was one of the best cliffhangers we've ever come up with.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  For sure. We'll be right back.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 26:06Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, Planning Engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 26:32Josh Clark?

  That includes Field Services Manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 26:39Speaker 04

  Through Alan's whole crew design, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  With the fans' experience, it's incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 26:56Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 26:59Speaker 05

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do or buy or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly, it's usually a new rug.

• 27:19Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  That's right. Whatever your style, whatever your budget, whatever you're looking for, Wayfair makes it easy to find it. And you can feel good about your purchases too, because Wayfair verified products go through a thorough 10-point quality inspection.

• 27:38Josh Clark?

  And with over 20 million 5-star reviews, Wayfair must be doing something right. You can find pieces made for real life and get even more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Hey everybody, cozy season is upon us. And that means crisp mornings, that means soft layers, and that means Bombas.

• 28:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Bombas makes your comfiest fall staples, so you can make the most out of one of the best seasons of the year. Bombas has new suede moccasins that are perfect for fall because they have cushy soles, a sheerling lining, and they're made of water-resistant suede.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  That's right, and their slippers are everything you'd want for a cozy night in, made with the softest, squishiest materials.

• 28:29Josh Clark?

  And of course, Bombas has socks. Not just any socks, socks for every type of weather, every type of occasion, because fall can be fickle, and Bombas makes socks that can handle it all. And the best part about Bombas, for every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  So head on over to bombas.com/sysk and use code SYSK at checkout for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash S-Y-S-K, using code SYSK at checkout.

• 29:19Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, we're on to the history part. Shout out to Colin Jones, who wrote a really good article on Aeon. He was the author of the book Smile Revolution: Colon in 18th Century Paris. I've never seen a colon be more useless than the one Colin Jones put into his book title, but regardless, this Aeon article was super helpful.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, are you talking about like portrait painting?

• 29:47Josh Clark?

  The whole darn thing, buddy. Like basically the progress of smile, the smile being acceptable in Western culture, it traces a pretty long heritage and it's had its ups and downs essentially.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I definitely.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  I mean, it makes sense, but I never knew that like portraits being so serious, like painted portraits was because it's you can't make a realistic looking smile because smiling again is something ideally that's happening spontaneously. And you can't hold that while you're sitting for a portrait. So that's the reason why all those portraits for so many, you know, hundreds and thousands of years were just more serious looking.

• 30:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because you can't just be like, hurry up.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  I know, it's no good.

• 30:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that is pretty interesting, too. I guess we talked about something like that in the orthodontics episode, because I think also there was just like, you just didn't show your teeth. Like, that was just etiquette. There was a manual for boys, an etiquette manual, that said that decorum forbids you to allow your teeth to be uncovered since nature gave us lips to conceal them. And I saw also that there was this, this general idea that if you were going to laugh, okay, we'd rather you don't. But if you're going to laugh silently and laugh with your mouth closed. And there's a painting from 1624 by Franz Halls called The Laughing Cavalier, that if you want to see what that looks like, it's that. And it looks like essentially a smug half-smile.

• 31:22Josh Clark?

  That's apparently laughing in the 17th century.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, if you look at old yearbooks, you know, people didn't start smiling till later.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  You know, teeth were fairly janky for a while. And it's theorized that it's just a holdover from the portrait painting days.

• 31:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Where if you sat for a portrait and then later in photography, it's just a more formal sort of thing. It's not, it's not a candid. And so you don't just sit there and, and flash a big smile. But people started doing that eventually. I did, who helped us with this one?

• 31:53Josh Clark?

  Olivia did.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, Libya saw some research that said that early photography too, like long exposures, people couldn't hold a smile. But I kind of called bunk on that. I've seen that online, but by the 1850s and 60s, it was only a few seconds of exposure, like the cameras were good enough for that. So I think it had more to do with the holdover. It just wasn't something that people did, like smiling like a dope in a painting or a picture was just untoward.

• 32:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like you said, smiling like a dope. Basically, in Europe, for hundreds and hundreds of years, smiles were associated with you being immature, you being drunk, you being insane. And like, that's just, that was the way you depicted people, was showing them smiling in like a painting. And the viewer would know what you were showing was maybe like a patient in an asylum, or somebody who was meant to be drunk, or something like that. That was the only way you would show it. And in the United States, at least, it wasn't until the 1930s, when people started actually smiling for photographs. And it really took off after that because of advertising, ads for cameras that basically said, hey, you

• 33:03Josh Clark?

  should smile with a picture. What's your problem? Just go ahead and smile. Don't you know it takes more muscles to frown than to smile?

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. They're like, buy the new Kodak so you can capture your dour grandmother in all her majesty.

• 33:16Josh Clark?

  Exactly. But there was the, did you mention the yearbook study?

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Uh, no, not a study, just that in yearbooks, like it took a while for that to catch on.

• 33:27Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. Some study basically tracked it. And then, I guess, like I said, by the 30s, it really started to take off. And then by the 50s, this is anecdotal, but just from watching Happy Days, yearbook photos essentially became big goofy grins. Because just imagine, like Ralph Mauff or Potsie, having like a solemn look in their yearbook photo, you can't do it.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I don't have a ton of pictures of my parents growing up, but I think I do have like, the college portraits of their yearbooks. And they're both smiling-ish in those.

• 34:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's, I have one picture of my parents, I think, right before I was born. And they're smiling, and it's like a portrait, they're smiling at each other. My dad looks goofy.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Should we talk about types of smiles?

• 34:19Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Boy, you really had me on the edge there. So Ekman, the guy, you know, psychologist that I was talking about, the study a lot about smiles. He talked about identifying a real, genuine enjoyment smile because of the eyes, those Duchenne markers. And that's what we kind of said early on is that a lot of research has found that like the real, genuine smiles is in the eyes, but you can still fake that.

• 34:48Josh Clark?

  Right, but he said that in a real smile, like this is why I'm like, I'm holding out hope that there is a smile that cannot be voluntarily replicated. Ekman said, in a true Duchenne smile, the eye cover fold between your eyebrow and the eyelid or the top of your eyelid, that actually goes downward a little bit. And then the ends of your eyebrows dip down with it a little bit. You can't do that on your own. You can't do that. Like I'm having to pull my face right now to make myself do that.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  That's right. And so next time you're on a blind date, if you're trying to figure out if they are truly, truly enjoying and smiling, just stare as hard as you can at the eye cover fold and see what it reveals.

• 35:33Josh Clark?

  Bring a caliper with you so you can take accurate measurements of the width of the eye cover fold.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  That's right. People have categorized smiles over the years because they, you know, some are just for joy, but a lot of smiles have purposes like you were talking about earlier, like, hey, it's cool here. Like, we just want to get out alive, right?

• 35:53Speaker 02

  There is the reward smile, which is very eye engaged and offers the feedback to your conversation partner of like, like, hey, I'm liking what you're laying down here.

• 36:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Hey, my eyes are up here.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  That's right. That's right.

• 36:10Josh Clark?

  There's affiliative smiles that show friendliness. These are the ones you'll flash a stranger at the grocery store, you know?

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you're from the south.

• 36:17Josh Clark?

  I'm not gonna sneak up behind you and club you with a giant bottle of wine.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 36:22Josh Clark?

  There's dominant smiles too, which, man.

• 36:26Josh Clark?

  Essentially, like, the lip will be lifted a little bit. Usually, it's asymmetrical. I think it's one of those ones where, like, you just know if you've been smiled at with a dominant smile, because you just have a bad taste in your mouth all of a sudden.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  For sure. Ekman identified 18 smiles. We're going to go through all of those, but I think we should talk about, did you want to?

• 36:50Josh Clark?

  No, that's okay.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  We should talk about a couple of them. One of my favorites is the miserable smile.

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  It is usually asymmetrical and layered on, layered on top, and it usually follows a negative expression. So it's trying to convey, like, you're not trying to hide that you're unhappy, and you're just accepting what's happening. So I would act that out as the smile, like, well, I guess this is happening now.

• 37:14Josh Clark?

  Yes. I would chalk the current reigning champ of the miserable smile, as far as Hollywood goes, up to the actor. I don't know her name.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 37:24Josh Clark?

  But she was in I Don't Feel at Home in This World Anymore. She was the star of that. And then she played Leonardo DiCaprio's wife in Don't Look Up. She's good at that.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 37:37Josh Clark?

  Have you not seen I Don't Feel at Home in This World Anymore?

• 37:40Speaker 02

  No, was that a movie or a TV show?

• 37:43Josh Clark?

  It was a movie. It was an indie movie. Tobey, not Tobey Maguire. Frodo, I'm sorry, Frodo, he was in it with her.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Elijah Wood. Oh, Melanie Linsky. She's the best.

• 37:55Josh Clark?

  Okay, yes, her. Thank you for coming up with that. That movie is definitely worth seeing. It's a, it's a great indie movie. It's good.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  No, I'll check that out. I love both of them, especially like her. She's wonderful. She's married to Jason Ritter.

• 38:07Josh Clark?

  No way.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, great. One of the great couples.

• 38:11Josh Clark?

  Okay, good.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  I mean Hollywood couples, because, you know, they're usually phonies. They seem pretty real.

• 38:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because there I always have that miserable smile.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  That's right. What other smiles, Josh? What's your favorite?

• 38:24Josh Clark?

  Well, miserable smile is my favorite too.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 38:26Josh Clark?

  The embarrassment smile, I think is kind of funny.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:30Josh Clark?

  Because it's just so involuntary. Like, if you imagine somebody actually doing this, it's hard to do and it kind of makes you appreciate what actors do, like just how hard it is to be a good actor. Because you might be called upon to do an embarrassment smile where you're embarrassed and you smile. It's kind of usually like, just barely tilted up, your lips are pressed together and you're looking downward, maybe even to the side a little bit. And it's just so quick and just so, you just can't stop yourself. You just do an embarrassment smile and everybody's like, oh, it's okay, except for that one guy who's got the dominant smile because you just showed that you're embarrassed.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:09Josh Clark?

  And now he knows that you're a mark.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's how those embarrassment smiles go.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  All right. Well, you know what? Let's take a break and I'm going to cover my favorite, last favorite smile right after this. I know our timing is just all wonky on this and this because we're having fun. So we'll be right back with my favorite smile.

• 39:42Josh Clark?

  If you own a home, you already know, stuff breaks. It's not if, it's when. And somehow it's always like the AC in July or the fridge right after you go to the grocery store. That's why you always hear people say they don't make appliances like they used to because it's kind of true.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  That's right. Good thing there's American Home Shield. With an AHS home warranty, they can help fix major home systems and appliance breakdowns like your AC, plumbing or fridge. And if they can't repair your cupboard item, they'll replace it no matter how old it is.

• 40:10Josh Clark?

  And that's huge because fixing an AC can cost a lot. Like, hey, kids, our vacation is canceled a lot. Plus, as a benefit to select plans, you can get real time video help from live repair experts to troubleshoot home hassles at no extra cost.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Listen, everybody, homeownership is already stressful enough. No need to upset your wallet, so check out American Home Shield now and get 20% off any plan at ahs.com/sysk and see promo details. See ahs.com/contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations, and exclusions. American Home Shield, don't worry, be warranty.

• 40:51Josh Clark?

  World Mental Health Day takes place in October, and it's really meant to be more than just awareness. It's about actually taking the next step and getting support if you need it.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  But a lot of people still talk themselves out of therapy. They think it's too expensive, they're not sure if it'll actually work, they don't know how to find the right therapist, or they just get overwhelmed trying to navigate the whole system.

• 41:10Josh Clark?

  And that's exactly what Rula is built to fix. Rula makes therapy feel a lot more approachable, a lot more human. You can find a therapist who actually fits your needs, not just whoever's available. And with insurance, sessions average around $15 copay.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can sign up in just a few minutes, you can get matched with the right provider, and even book something as soon as the next day.

• 41:30Josh Clark?

  And it's not just about starting. Rula helps you stay consistent and actually make progress, because taking care of your mental health isn't a one-time thing. So if you've been thinking about therapy, don't talk yourself out of it. This is a really easy way to take that first step.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  So turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com, that is R-U-L-A dot com, to find a therapist the easy way.

• 41:57Josh Clark?

  We've all done it, tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong?

• 42:15Speaker 02

  That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends.

• 42:33Josh Clark?

  Not to cancel them, not to hype them more, but to actually understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Start asking better questions and listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  All right, everybody, I'm just gonna call this the William H. Macy in his office in Fargo smile when Fran McDormand meets him for the first time. It's that smile, it's the coordination smile. And the coordination smile indicates cooperation and acknowledgement. Slightly asymmetrical and it's sort of slight. But Bill Macy in that scene with the, yeah, we'll just, we'll do a lot count. We'll just shoot those numbers right on over to you. So like he's coordinating, he's showing cooperation. Uh, but it's still kind of phony.

• 43:36Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Sort of a business smile almost.

• 43:38Josh Clark?

  He's great at that though, too.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:41Josh Clark?

  And it also has like, I'm just so pathetic, like, don't, you can't even question me. Like, like just overlook me, kind of.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know that movie is 90 minutes long?

• 43:52Josh Clark?

  Man, we need to get back to that. Anything two hours or over means that the producers did not bring the director in.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  No, I agree. Movies are too bloated now. And if anyone ever makes it like if a director were to make an argument that we really need that, I would just say Fargo and walk out of the room.

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And that's, that's all you need to say. But yeah, I've been watching some 90s and 80s movies and they're definitely like 90 minutes, it's all it takes, it's all it should take. I saw 52 Pickup recently.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Oh, uh, who was that?

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  Roy Scheider and Anne Margaret.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  That's right, that's right. Good movie.

• 44:25Josh Clark?

  It was all right.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  I love Roy Scheider.

• 44:27Josh Clark?

  It was much more hardcore than it makes you think it's going to be in the first like 15 minutes.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  Cause you thought it was about cards and just like throwing them on, playing that game.

• 44:38Josh Clark?

  Just an hour and a half of that. Um, I've got one more smile, Chuck.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  All right, let's hear it.

• 44:44Josh Clark?

  The uncanny smile.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. So you're talking about, they made a whole movie franchise around that.

• 44:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Smile, right? That's exactly what I'm talking about. It was also the, the ghost family in Insidious, the first one.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:58Josh Clark?

  They all had that uncanny smile. Jack Nicholson might've been the progenitor of the whole thing in The Shining. When he's got that smile where he's like looking.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Here's Johnny.

• 45:06Josh Clark?

  He's looking like over, he's looking, his chin's down, but his eyes are up. And he's got that crazy smile on his face.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's very unsettling.

• 45:15Josh Clark?

  It is. That's the uncanny smile. And, um, it will haunt your dreams.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Okay. I didn't know if you had any science behind it.

• 45:22Josh Clark?

  I looked and I couldn't find anything. The most I could find was that it was contextually wrong.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:30Josh Clark?

  And that it kind of set our brains on edge from that. And then also, if you really, now that you kind of know about the facial coding system, if you look at it, the AU6 is definitely not in effect because the eyes are usually staring while there's this huge grin. And that is not a normal combination.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think what's important, there doesn't need to be science, as long as everyone agrees that it's scary for movies.

• 45:55Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:57Josh Clark?

  What else, buddy? Oh, I think we've reached the best part.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Does smiling make us happy?

• 46:02Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, uh, you know, like I said, we did a full episode on this, but that's, that was three years in and I don't think we were very good at that point, so hopefully this will be better. As approved by this episode today.

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  Well, this, yeah, right. This was a throwback, wasn't it?

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:19Josh Clark?

  We should have gone for the second ad break right before we went to listener mail.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  So the idea that smiling makes us feel happier apparently traces itself back to Darwin.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:32Josh Clark?

  And Darwin was big into smiling. He saw facial expressions in general as a evidence of vestigial behavior that we had from like our primate ancestors, right?

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:43Josh Clark?

  And there have been tons of studies to find out if that's true, and they've come back with like mixed results. Some of them are like, kind of, maybe, but others are like, meh, I don't know about that.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's a tough thing to test because what they do is, like, they have different methodologies. One of the early ones, I think was from 1988, and they said, you know, they put a pen in your mouth, like sideways, which will, you know, make sort of a fake

• 47:16Speaker 02

  assimilation of a smile, I guess.

• 47:17Josh Clark?

  Well, that's if you have the pen sticking out of your mouth straight between your teeth.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:23Josh Clark?

  No, really.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  No, no, no. I thought it was, uh, I thought they would put it sideways so it would make your lips out. You're saying they just hold it in your teeth like a cigarette?

• 47:31Josh Clark?

  Yes, in the middle of your mouth, that'll make you smile. And then if you put it like in between like sideways, that makes you frown.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Huh. Not me, buddy.

• 47:41Josh Clark?

  You got a pen handy?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Well, I'll do it and I'll text it to you. No, no, I'll make you research it.

• 47:45Josh Clark?

  Send me a screenshot.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Well, either way, if you hold that pen between their teeth, they will then ask you questions like, you know, like, are you happy? Are you not happy? Stuff like that. And like, look at this thing. Does this make you happy? And I guess that's supposed to indicate that, like, if your mouth is forced into a smile, that you'll be happier. That just, it doesn't make sense to me.

• 48:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's, that's the study. That's what they study is just like, if you can, if the facial feedback that you're getting, showing that you're smiling, that it can happen in the reverse, rather than smiling because you're happy. If you make yourself smile, can that make you happy? Right? And that one, that first 1988 study to keep people from knowing that they were being tested about smiling. They told, they told them that they were, they were testing out new methods to help disabled people write, who didn't, who didn't have arms. So they were trying to figure out ways to help them write so that people, that's what they thought they were doing. And then they, they said, here, check out this cartoon. Is this funny or not?

• 48:49Josh Clark?

  And I guess all of the cartoons were Ziggy, so everyone thought they were funny, but the people who were making the smiles thought they were funnier than everybody.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Wow. All right. That got way more interesting. Once I knew what they, how they lied.

• 49:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they definitely lied for sure. Never trust a researcher.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  This one from 2024 has, carries a little more weight for me because it's not just sticking a pen in someone's mouth. A psychologist named Sebastian Korb of University of Essex and did a thing where he ran a little electric current into their, those fast twitch muscles, which forced like a smile to happen for just like a half a second. And then they assessed whether a, like a digital image of a face looked happy. So apparently when they induce those tiny little smiles, people were more likely to identify a neutral face as happy.

• 49:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And the big failing of all of these studies is that they, they go social psychology at the end, like, are you happy? Do you feel happy? Is this comic funny? Is this neutral face happy? And it just becomes so subjective and self-reporting that it's, the jury's still out, I think.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Am I a comedian? Am I making you laugh?

• 50:01Josh Clark?

  What, am I a clown? Do I amuse you?

• 50:04Speaker 02

  I just watched that again the other night.

• 50:06Josh Clark?

  Uh, what is that? Goodfellas?

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's still great. You know, it's not great is The Aviator, uh, cause I mentioned that in the Howard Hughes episode. I just watched the Howard Hughes in Vegas bit, but I had recently seen the Scorsese documentary series and I was like, you know, I should watch all of The Aviator. It's, it's not one of his best.

• 50:26Josh Clark?

  No, I know it didn't get a lot of praise.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:29Josh Clark?

  It was two and a half hours long too, wasn't it?

• 50:31Speaker 02

  It was pretty long. It was not 90 minutes, I'll tell you.

• 50:35Josh Clark?

  Uh, there is one more, uh, intervention about smiling make you happy. It's from dialectical behavior therapy, DBT.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:43Josh Clark?

  And it employs the half smile and it said, it essentially tells you to make a little smile so that you know you're smiling, but not that you look like crazy to other people, right? So other people can't really tell. They might see that you might look slightly different and maybe a little more approachable than you normally would with a BRF. But, um, it has been shown again, anecdotally, that it actually does increase your, your sense of positivity. Uh, I know that sounds hippie dippy, but I believe it actually works.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  What's BRF?

• 51:16Josh Clark?

  Be resting face.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. I've always heard, I've never heard it in that order.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  What, what do you hear it as?

• 51:25Speaker 02

  RBF.

• 51:27Josh Clark?

  Man, I am off today. We're gonna edit that part out too.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  I think you're doing great. This is a capital episode.

• 51:35Josh Clark?

  Uh, let's see. Oh, there's one other thing too. One more study.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Let's hear it.

• 51:39Josh Clark?

  And again, social psychology is take it with a grain of salt, but they found that service employees who have to engage in surface acting, meaning like part of your job is smiling and seeming happy, whether you are or not, uh, tend to be heavier drinkers than people outside of the service industry.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  That's sad.

• 51:58Josh Clark?

  It is. And that explains why hotel reception people are constantly blotto. If you've ever noticed when you check in, they are wasted to a person. That's why, cause they're forced to smile.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  That's right. Makes sense.

• 52:11Josh Clark?

  You got anything else, man?

• 52:13Speaker 02

  I got nothing else.

• 52:14Josh Clark?

  This was, this was great. New and improved smiling happiness episode.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  It was new.

• 52:20Josh Clark?

  Okay. I guess that means it's time for listener me.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  That's right. Might as well finish this one with a correction, you know?

• 52:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think we should.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Hey, guys.

• 52:32Josh Clark?

  From 2011?

• 52:33Speaker 02

  First time corrector here? No. I wanted to say we love the immense amount of work you put into educating so many people on so many topics for so long. My partner and I are so excited to see your live show in Ottawa, Ontario.

• 52:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  The capital of the Great White North.

• 52:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  It's probably a good time to mention, we're going to six different places in Canada in June and July.

• 52:53Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  And we're super excited. We're trying to move some more tickets in a couple of these, specifically Montreal. So if you're in and around Montreal, I mean, this is it. This is your shot. We'd love to see you there.

• 53:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  All right. So, quick email, guys, about the minor historical mix-up in the Hindenburg Disaster episode.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Josh, one of you stated...

• 53:18Josh Clark?

  Thank you, Chuck.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  That the US ace Eddie Rickenbacker took out German ace the Red Baron.

• 53:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  Manfred von Richthofen.

• 53:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  But that's not the case, I'm sorry. The Red Baron was killed on April 21, 1918 over the Somme. He was low to the ground chasing an inexperienced Canadian pilot, Lieutenant Wilfred May, Canadian Royal Air Force pilot, Captain Arthur Roy. Brown drove steeply to defend May and fired at the Baron's Fokker triplane. While Brown was officially credited with the kill, modern ballistics, medical exams, and historians favor the theory that the fatal bullet came from Australian ground troops, who saw them coming. Specifically, it's widely believed to have been fired by Sergeant Cedric Popkin, or Gunners Robert Buie, and William Snowy Evans, as Richthofen flew dangerously low over Allied lines.

• 54:08Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  As for Eddie Rickenbacker, he didn't even see active aerial combat until April 1918, the very month the Red Baron died.

• 54:16Josh Clark?

  So, I mean, I'm not, I'm not a crackpot, right? Like, that's what we've been taught all these years, that Eddie Rickenbacker took out the Red Baron, right?

• 54:25Speaker 02

  I have no idea.

• 54:27Josh Clark?

  This isn't like a Jacqueline Bissett, Jacqueline Smith-type thing.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  I have no idea, because I don't, I'm not steeped in that kind of stuff. Like, if you say Red Baron, I think of Snoopy.

• 54:36Josh Clark?

  I do, too. But I'm, I'm saying, like, I've never done any World War I flying ace research. This was literally taught to me in school, as far as I can recall.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Well, hey, I believe that. I'm just saying, I just don't recall.

• 54:48Josh Clark?

  Well, that's funny. So I wonder who really, who really did it? Because Australia's got their people, Canada's got their people, we have our people. Who knows?

• 54:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. My, my money's on, uh, Snowy Evans.

• 55:01Josh Clark?

  Uh, okay. I think that's great. I'll put my money on Snowy, too. Sorry, Rickenbacker.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's anonymous, by the way. That was a, uh, that was a guy and his partner who were big history buffs. I'm not sure why it was anonymous. There's nothing, uh, I guess they just don't want their name said. So that's, I guess we'll see the anonymous people in Ottawa. They'll be out there with, uh, sacks over their heads.

• 55:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. Um, thank you, anonymous. Yeah, that wasn't so controversial, but, okay, we'll definitely always respect your privacy. We'll respect your privacy, too, if you write to us and you're like, "Do not read my name." We will never do that.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  You know what I bet it is? Is they don't want to be outed as going to that show because they told their friends that they don't really like, that wanted to go with them, that they weren't going.

• 55:44Josh Clark?

  Oh, ouch. I'll bet you're right.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:47Josh Clark?

  Uh, or some friend asks them to move or drive them to the airport, and they're like, "Uh, we're gonna be out of town."

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, "We're having a painting party."

• 55:54Josh Clark?

  Um, let's see. Well, I guess that's it. And if you, oh, like I was saying, if you want to be, like, anonymous, and even if you want to remain anonymous, send us an email. Send it off to [email protected].

• 56:10Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 56:26Josh Clark?

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• 57:08Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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  In Orlando, meetings reach another level thanks to a growing list of award-winning restaurants, a world-class convention center, a great hotel community, easy access through the airport, and of course, the weather.

• 57:43Josh Clark?

  That's right Chuck. Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive level team members as well. And we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience. He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  And while you may know Orlando for its attractions, industries like healthcare, aerospace and advanced manufacturing make it a hub for cutting-edge businesses. Or, in the words of Mr. Moyes, Orlando can really be that destination where you can innovate, collaborate and look to the future. And that's what makes Orlando unbelievably real. Learn more at orlandoforbusiness.com.

• 58:35Speaker 06

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.