Short Stuff: Killing a Dead Body

If you try to kill someone who was already dead is that a bad thing? Yeah? How bad? See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  We've all tumbled down an internet rabbit hole trying to self diagnose and it leaves us more anxious than informed. Our feeds are full of wellness trends, but how do we know what's real, what's exaggerated and what's just wrong? Health versus hype from the American Medical Association breaks it all down. Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez talks to doctors, influencers and real people trying these trends, not to cancel them, but to understand them. Because when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. So listen to Health Versus Hype wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:08Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. It's Josh, it's Chuck and we're both alive for now.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell you what, buddy. If I was ever dead, I would, I would want you to make sure of it by killing me again.

• 1:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but you'd be setting me up for a real legal quagmire that probably would not break in my favor, Chuck. So I don't know if I can guarantee that.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  I wish I could do a good impression of the late actor slash magician slash kind of comedian Ricky Jay, because anyone who's ever seen the, to my mind, great P T Anderson movie from 1999, Magnolia.

• 1:46Josh Clark?

  It is great.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  Will recall, and if you're interested, by the way, our friend of the show, Josh's boyfriend, Adam Pranica.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Was on my P T Anderson series on Movie Crush. So we covered Magnolia and all the P T Anderson movies before the show ended, that is.

• 2:01Josh Clark?

  I've got one even better than you.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  What's that?

• 2:04Josh Clark?

  Our, another friend of the show, Paul F. Tompkins.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:08Josh Clark?

  P F Tompkins, not P T Anderson. He did a script reading for Magnolia at the table with all the actors and apparently was not doing well enough for Tom Cruise not to say something like, can we, can we keep getting this right or something? It's a hilarious story.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Wow, I've never heard that.

• 2:23Josh Clark?

  Where Tom Cruise is essentially like being mean to P F Tompkins for not doing a good job script reading.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Well, that, I sort of liked Tom Cruise until then because Pollock Tompkins is a national treasure and he was actually in the movie There Will Be Blood because, I don't know, maybe he did such a good job at that table reading.

• 2:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's another P T Anderson film, right?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  Where he goes, I'm done with drinking milkshakes or something.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  That's it. I don't want any more milkshake. Thank you, I think is the line.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  Why are we, why are we talking about Magnolia?

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Because, once again, at the beginning of that movie, there's a series of vignettes. Ricky Jay narrates them and the first, I think it's the first one, I don't recall, but it's a very kind of cool sequence where there's, the story is told where a guy named Sidney Behringer attempted suicide, but it became a suicide. He, the long and short of it is, he jumped out of a window. His parents lived in the apartment or in an apartment below him and as he jumped and was falling to what he thought would be his death, his mom and dad got into an argument. His mom aims a shotgun at the dad. The gun goes off.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  It goes through the window, missing the father and kills the son on his way down to land. The guy didn't know this when he went to jump off the building, but there was a net down there that would have caught him and saved his life.

• 3:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so it went from him, him taking his own life to his mom murdering him, to his suicide being ruled an attempted one. He couldn't have completed it because of that net. But it gets even crazier because when the police show up, the mom and dad say, "We have no idea how the shotgun was loaded. We use it to threaten one another all the time, so we know not to load it." And upon more investigation, they found that Sidney had loaded it. So he loaded the gun that killed him, and so the medical examiner ruled it a suicide after all.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  That's right. This story is not true, as it turns out. It was based on the story of Ronald Opus, which came from an oral story of the president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, Don Harper Mills. In 1987, he told this story at a banquet, eventually found its way to the internet, but Mills maintains that he made it up to illustrate how turning up new evidence can completely alter the outcome of a coroner's ruling.

• 4:48Josh Clark?

  Right. And it's a really good example of just how, how strange turns of events in evidence collection can completely alter a medical examiner's ruling on the cause of death. And that also applies to an entirely, like, niche, I guess, area of legal scholarship, which is, can you murder someone who's already dead? And it turns out, it's not nearly as straightforward as you would think.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  All right. Let's take a break. What a tease. And we'll come back with more talk of Boogie Nights and Hard Eight, right after this.

• 5:42Josh Clark?

  Hey everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on. Whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 6:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. If you've been thinking about securing your home, there's no better time to protect it with SimpliSafe. Right now, you can save 70% on a new system, their biggest savings of the year. You've heard us talk about SimpliSafe before, and you know it's designed to keep threats away from the door and your loved ones safe in the first place. If you thought about SimpliSafe at all, now is the time to finally secure your home.

• 7:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, unlike traditional security systems that only alert you after a break-in is already underway, SimpliSafe is built to stop it before it starts. Their agents intervene in under 30 seconds, speaking through the camera to stop an intruder in their tracks, and calling for urgent 911 dispatch when it's needed most.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  That's right, and SimpliSafe has an offer for our listeners now with their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/stuff. That's simplisafe.com/stuff, and when you order, write in the code STUFF at checkout. It tells them we sent you, and it really helps the show. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime, in real time.

• 8:03Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, we were talking about whether it's possible legally to murder a dead body. Obviously physically it's not. And there's actual case law.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:12Josh Clark?

  Where people have done something like this and legal scholars, prosecutors, defense teams, juries have had to sort this out. And one of the best known ones came in France in 1986.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  That's right, with the death of Monsieur Wilkins. Monsieur Wilkins got in a brawl with Monsieur Charot. Is that right?

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 8:35Josh Clark?

  Well, I mean, it's Monsieur Charot.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  What did I say?

• 8:39Josh Clark?

  Monsieur.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  How do you pronounce it?

• 8:41Josh Clark?

  Monsieur.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Really? Why is it M-O-N? Is that all silent?

• 8:45Josh Clark?

  It's just the French doing their French thing.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  So Monsieur isn't a thing at all?

• 8:50Josh Clark?

  No, it's Monsieur.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  I've heard of Monsieur. I just thought this is a more formal title or something.

• 8:54Josh Clark?

  No, no, that's it.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Spelled M-O-N. That's weird.

• 8:57Josh Clark?

  That's the famous Monsieur.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  All right.

• 8:59Josh Clark?

  So Monsieur Charot.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  All right, so Monsieur Charot was in this brawl with Monsieur Wilkins. Wilkins was knocked unconscious by an iron bar by Monsieur Charot.

• 9:11Josh Clark?

  Very nice.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  And then Monsieur Charot used that same iron bar to strangle Monsieur Wilkins. The next day, another dude, Monsieur Pederot.

• 9:21Josh Clark?

  Very nice.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Came along and was like, hey, this Wilkins guy's still alive. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna beat him to death with a glass bottle and strangle him just to make sure that he's dead. The medical examiner found that Charot had actually killed him, so he was dead. So then the question remains, what happens to Pederot when he commits this seeming act of murder on a dead body?

• 9:48Josh Clark?

  Right. So there's an actual answer for this. And before we get to the answer, we have to talk about a couple of legal things and another case.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:57Josh Clark?

  Okay? So the people who are arguing against Pederot's guilt, so say his defense team, said he cannot be charged with murder or even attempted murder because murdering Monsieur Wilkins was a legal impossibility. It was impossible for him to complete this act, uh, which means that he can't possibly be guilty of it. And that was apparently a longstanding idea in, um, law, that of this idea of a legal impossibility and, um, guilt, right? And so some people said, okay, that's actually a pretty good explanation. I think he, he might not be guilty. And other people said, wait, wait, wait. Forget this legal impossibility mumbo jumbo.

• 10:42Josh Clark?

  What we think is more important is intent. What did he intend to do? He thought that Willicans was, uh, still alive when he tried to murder him. So his intent was to murder this man. Therefore, he's guilty of attempted murder. And everybody said, what to do? What to do? Sacra bleu.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  That's right. I thought that was sacred blau. So, uh, they said, we must look to see if there's any precedent. Uh, that was in the eighties and, uh, I don't know if they actually looked at the American case or not, because you can't really set precedent on someone else's, uh, country, right?

• 11:20Josh Clark?

  No, no, it's not precedent necessarily, but I think like it's out there. Sure, yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Okay. So New York City, 1975, 11 years before the French incident, as it's known by me only. There were some dudes drinking in an apartment, three guys drinking. Uh, the guy's apartment was Michael Geller. And another guy, Joe Bush, had been staying there, kind of freeloadin', staying with the guy. And they were sitting there getting a little more drunk. Obviously some hotheads, uh, hotheads kind of guys. And Geller started saying like, hey dude, you've been crashing here. I need some rent. Why don't you start chipping in on rent? This thing escalated such that Bush eventually shot him three times in the chest. And the guy falls to the floor. And then the third guy comes in, Melvin, uh, DeLuGash,

• 12:05Speaker 02

  and stands over Geller and fires five more shots into his head. Both of these guys are charged, obviously, with murder. But once again, uh, DeLuGash, his defense was, hey, this guy was already dead, or at least you can't prove that he was alive when I shot him five times in the head. Uh, he was initially convicted of murder, but it was overturned, um, saying that you can't prove that he was dead. So you can't charge me with murder.

• 12:31Josh Clark?

  Right, and I just want to say, this seems like a fairly shocking crime, but this took place while there was still lead in America's gasoline.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 12:40Josh Clark?

  So, um, yeah, like you said, DeLuGash, I, that's the best way you could say that horrible name.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:47Josh Clark?

  He got off because, yeah, the prosecution couldn't prove that Geller was still alive, and New York Supreme Court said, no, no, not so fast. It doesn't matter whether Geller was still alive. You thought he might have still been alive, which is why you shot him five times in the head. And we're going to throw out this idea of legal impossibility and adopt, basically, a new framework, or at least we're going to take an existing framework and basically make it the framework, which is intent.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  That is that, like, what you intended to do determines your guilt or innocence, not the actual fact or possibility of whether you could have done what you were trying to do.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Right, specifically, uh, the charge is attempted murder. What you can't do is charge somebody with murder.

• 13:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Because you can't murder a corpse, it's just not scientifically, forget legally, it's not scientifically possible to kill something that is already dead. Uh, but attempted murder, you certainly can. So the French High Court weighs in on the Pere De Rea case with monsieur.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Man, what a dope.

• 13:54Josh Clark?

  No, this is a, this is an instant classic because of that.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Uh, and they came to the same conclusion, and they said, alright, you're guilty of attempted murder then, because our friend, the Yanks across the pond, um, they informed our opinion on this, perhaps.

• 14:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, perhaps. So there's, there's at least one more that we want to call out. This actually happens with surprising frequency. I would not think that there would be more than one or two cases, but there are some here or there. One that I saw was that it's sometimes used to prosecute cops who shoot people a bunch of times. Um, there was a cop in Toronto, uh, who a guy came at with a knife, and he shot him three times, and the guy dropped. And then he went up and shot him a bunch more times when the guy was on the ground. And the jury said, nope, that was illegal, illegal murder. We can't, we can't convict you of murder because this is in the line of duty. Um, and it was the bullets after, the shots after, that we can now convict you of attempted murder.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it also happened to our dear friends in Australia in the case of what looks like a mercy killing in 2014 near one of our favorite cities, Melbourne. Two guys, Daniel Darrington and Rocky Spartacus, Matt Scassy. What a name. They got in a fight, were struggling over a gun. The gun went off. Well, I was about to say killed. It struck Matt Scassy in the head. His body's on the ground twitching around and stuff. And Darrington shoots him. He's like, hey, I don't want this guy. And the quote was, didn't want the bloke suffering.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  And killed him for sure, then went back, got more bullets, and then shot him again. And he was charged with murder. And the jury said, you know, we can't find him guilty because the prosecution didn't kill that you intended to kill him when the gun went off to begin with.

• 15:50Josh Clark?

  Right. But they did find him guilty of attempted murder because he demonstrated quite clearly that he thought Matt Scassy was still alive and shot him to kill him, however merciful the act was supposed to be.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:07Josh Clark?

  And he got convicted of attempted murder for that one.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 16:10Josh Clark?

  Had he not, had he not tried to be merciful and put Matt Scassy out of his misery and just the initial shot had killed him, he wouldn't have been convicted of anything at all.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it would have been, I guess, a struggle, maybe even self-defense. Who knows how they would have framed it?

• 16:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. So I guess that's the takeaway here. If somebody is potentially already dead, call an ambulance.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, this kind of thing I feel like is in movies a lot. I feel like it often comes up as like to prove your loyalty to the organization, like someone's in there, like, I killed most of them, you got to finish them off, so we're both liable or whatever.

• 16:50Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  I see that a lot in movies, I feel like.

• 16:53Josh Clark?

  Sure. Short stuff, I guess it's out.

• 17:16Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.