Short Stuff: Battle of Itter Castle

At the end of WWII in Europe, one of the strangest battles of the war took place between German troops fighting alongside Americans and French to beat back an assault by the Nazi SS. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  This is the story of the one. As a shipping manager, he's running the dock, stocking supplies and making sure every order goes out on time. And Granger helps him stay prepared. From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools, he counts on Granger to keep products moving and trucks rolling. So his operation runs smoothly, no matter the shift. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

• 1:09Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry sitting in for Dave, which makes this an official short stuff. Don't accept substitutes.

• 1:18Speaker 03

  That's right. And I'm only going to say this at the beginning, but boy, oh, boy, this should be a movie, this episode.

• 1:25Josh Clark?

  It's insane that it's not.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, really great cinematic story in every way, the way it, you know, is laid out there, you know?

• 1:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the Battle of Castle Itter. Would it be Itter or Itter?

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Well, here we go. We already don't know what to call it.

• 1:40Josh Clark?

  So we're going to call it Itter after John Ritter. But it's also called Schloss Itter, which is castle. And it's located in Austria, in the Tyrolean region of Austria. And the reason why it's significant is two. It's one of the last battles of the European theater of World War II. Like, I can't name any other battles after it, but that doesn't really mean that much. And then the second reason is because it is a really unusual battle in that Germans got together with Americans and French and fought the Nazis in this battle.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, and other randos from different places like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. Like, it was a, like you mentioned, a real motley crew, real ragtag group. Yeah, but you didn't put both umlauts. You gotta put it over the O, too.

• 2:32Josh Clark?

  Oh, I didn't. Oh, I'm sorry. Man, I screwed up.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  It was pretty great, everyone. Josh put this together and he typed out motley crew and he put umlauts over the U. Just clearly is a little, little love letter to me.

• 2:45Josh Clark?

  It was.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I got it.

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  But I'm sorry, I screwed up the love letter.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  No, it's fine. It's the thought that counts. That's what they say, right?

• 2:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but that's really patronizing.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  What if this was the very last battle? That makes it even more cinematic.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  I mean, that's what I read. It was like, one of the last, and it could just be somebody hedging, you know, and it could have been the last one.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, all right. So this castle's sitting up there, since the 13th century, since 1878, it's been kind of in its present form, and it's been a bunch of things. It was a private estate for a while, it was a hotel for a while. But notably for our story, after the Nazis annexed Austria in 1938, they took it over and a few years later, in 1943, it became part of Dachau, you know, the death camp, and it served as a, sort of a VIP prison for some high-value prisoners of war that they thought could, like, we're not going to put these people to death. We think we might be able to use them as hostages, so we'll, we'll hold them up in this castle.

• 3:47Josh Clark?

  Right. And there were some, like, real VIPs in there. There were two French generals, two former French prime ministers.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:55Josh Clark?

  A tennis star who'd become a politician, and one of the sisters of Charles de Gaulle, who was like, I guess, he was the head of the military in World War II, correct? Or was he the, no, he was the current prime minister, right, in exile?

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Oh, I thought he just built the airport.

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, hand by hand, but that was a side project that he did on weekends.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:15Josh Clark?

  There were also, like you said, some Czech prisoners, some Yugoslavian prisoners. And they were there for a couple of years. And in May of 1945, the beginning of May 1945, the war was not just starting to wind down, it was coming to like a, like a car smashing into a tree kind of stop. Because Hitler had just killed himself in Berlin. Mussolini had been strung up and hung out to dry, literally by partisans in Italy. And it was just very clear that, that Germany had lost World War Two and the European theater was coming to an end.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. They were literally about to offer up their formal surrender. But if you're in this castle, you're a little worried because the SS at this point, there's some SS that are like, hey, you know, we're going to lay down our arms. The war is clearly over. Let's just get this over with. There's other SS that are like, nine, I'm going to go down in a blaze of glory and kill everyone that I can before they formally call this thing over. And so if you were in this castle as a VIP prisoner, you were worried that they were going to be coming for you and they found out that that was true.

• 5:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So one of the things that really unsettled them is on May 2, the Butcher of Dachau, the guy who ran the prison camp, Edouard Witter, he showed up at the castle because remember this was like an annex of the Dachau prison system. And he was on the run from the Allies who had just liberated the camp right after he'd escaped. But being a horrible, terrible Nazi, as all Nazis are, he ordered the execution of 2,000 prisoners on his way out the door. The people at Castle Eder had heard about this. I mean, that's kind of a big deal even in World War Two, even in Germany. And they, the fact that Witter showed up, they're like, well, this is, this is it for us. But instead, Witter took his own life.

• 6:12Josh Clark?

  He shot himself in the heart. That didn't work. So then he shot himself in the head while he had shot himself in the heart.

• 6:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, so he really finished the job. Couple of days, I guess they were briefly relieved and they're like, oh, well, thank God. But a couple of days after that, the commandment of the castle and all the guards, they left. And so all of a sudden, all these people are trapped in this castle, these prisoners, there's no way to get out.

• 6:38Speaker 03

  Even if they could get out, they know that there are probably hostile Germans nearby and they don't want to meet up with them. So a handyman, a Yugoslavian handyman in the castle said, you know what? I'm gonna make a run for it, you guys. And I'm gonna go and try and meet up with the American troops that are coming our way and see if I can get us some help and rescue. He did make it to the Americans, which is, again, if this is a movie, it's like an amazing success story that he found the Americans.

• 7:05Josh Clark?

  And didn't get shot.

• 7:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, and the Americans were like, hey, listen, man, we're legally, the war's not quite over. We're not allowed to be in that area yet. But they were led by Major John T. Kramer, and he said, there will be a podcaster one day that will coin the term nuts to that. But I'm gonna say it right now, let's send a small detachment of tanks that way and see if we can help those guys out.

• 7:29Josh Clark?

  I can't take credit for that. I learned that from grandpa on Simpsons.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  Was that him?

• 7:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  That's funny.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  So yeah, Major John Kramer says, we're gonna go help you guys. And he leads a column of tanks over, he turns the steering wheels and heads them toward Castle Eder. And I say we take a break here because I think it's a pretty good spot.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's do it.

• 8:08Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it all starts with a great deal on the truck from your local Toyota dealer.

• 8:18Speaker 03

  That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road Ready Tacoma or Half-Ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest-lasting trucks. Built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure, and the rugged For everything in between.

• 8:31Josh Clark?

  Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic 4Runner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  Hey, everybody. Cozy season is upon us. And that means crisp mornings. That means soft layers. And that means Bombas.

• 9:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Bombas makes your comfiest fall staples, so you can make the most out of one of the best seasons of the year. Bombas has new suede moccasins that are perfect for fall because they have cushy soles, a sheerling lining, and they're made of water-resistant suede.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  That's right. And their slippers are everything you'd want for a cozy night in, made with the softest, squishiest materials.

• 9:37Josh Clark?

  And of course, Bombas has socks. Not just any socks, socks for every type of weather, every type of occasion, because fall can be fickle, and Bombas makes socks that can handle it all. And the best part about Bombas, for every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting.

• 9:59Speaker 03

  So head on over to bombas.com/sysk and use code SYSK at checkout for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash SYSK, using code SYSK at checkout.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  All right. So meanwhile, back at the castle, these prisoners, they don't know what's happened to this Yugoslavian handyman that went for help because obviously it's, you know, he can't send word back. So another volunteer stepped forward. This is the cook of the castle. And he said, all right, I'm going to try and go get help. He finds, oh, God, this is such a movie. He finds a German major, Sepp Gongel. And this guy, you said, you know, all Nazis were terrible. I guess you would call him almost a former Nazi because he was one of the dudes that was like, no, this is, what we're doing isn't right. So he broke with the SS. He was leading a little group of Allied friendly troops. So he was a complete turncoat. And he said, all right, let's get

• 11:07Speaker 03

  together and go get these prisoners. Like, we finally have a job to do. Like, you know, Guns at the Navarone style. Let's go, let's go save these prisoners.

• 11:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So Gangl is on his way now to Castle Itter. And on the way, he runs into a tank commander and his tank, the Besotting Jenny is the name of the tank. And the commander's name is Jack C. Lee Jr. He's captain. And Gangl tells him what's going on. And Jack C. Lee says, you know, sir, I'd really like to take part in that. Let's go. So he grabs a few members of his company, a few members of a nearby all black company D of the 17th Armored Infantry Battalion.

• 11:51Speaker 03

  Good movie stuff.

• 11:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, all played by Jim Brown in different disguises.

• 11:57Josh Clark?

  And then he puts them all together and he and Gangl and their ragtag group of people start moving toward Castle Itter. And this is not like some sort of, first of all, this isn't sanctioned. This is not like some obvious platoon that's already been assembled. Like, this is just a group of people who almost were like, yeah, I want to go get those people out of that castle. And they said, come on. And that's, this is the group that's moving toward Castle Itter. And they finally get there. I think about 12 hours before the siege finally began on the castle.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. So they suspected there were Germans coming their way. And they were right. The Waffen SS, they were the combat detachment of the SS. Really bad dudes, very elite fighters. They arrive at the castle, like you said, about 12 hours after this ragtag group is there to defend them. And they take out Besotting Jenny right away. They take out that tank. It was a pretty smart move, I guess, to go ahead and get the heavy artillery down. It was parked in front of the main gate. So with that tank gone, they were basically, you know, fully free to just assault this castle outright. And a battle starts, like a really gruesome battle. They, inside the prison, they had broken to the armory. So they had some stuff to defend themselves with, like pistols, some rifles and machine

• 13:13Speaker 03

  guns. But this was, these are pistols and machine guns and rifles, not, not heavy artillery, which is kind of what they needed at that point.

• 13:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think the Nazis had some 80 millimeter gun that they were using to pound the castle walls. This is like a medieval siege that's going on, but with modern armory, right?

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:31Josh Clark?

  And at first, like, it looked like, okay, the people in the castle might be able to hold this off. There's like 100 Waffen SS attacking them. But then they started to run low on ammunition. And it doesn't really matter what kind of gun you have. If you don't have bullets to shoot out of it, you're in trouble if the people who you're fighting do still have bullets. And so by noon, it was starting to look really grim. And also by this time, Gangl had been killed by a Nazi sniper. And I saw that Jack Lee, Captain Lee, was already the de facto commander. Even the two French generals were deferring to his command. But he was kind of co commanding with Gangl. Now he was alone commanding this

• 14:12Josh Clark?

  whole thing by himself. And he came up with a plan, basically to hide everybody in the castle keep.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really felt bad for Gangl because he turn coded against the Nazis. He's doing the right thing. He brought them there. And, and just like a movie scene, he's up on the, on the top, like, trying to get an assessment of the situation and gets taken out by a sniper. It's like such a powerful movie scene, you know?

• 14:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the only thing about it you would have to change is that he was probably killed instantly. He would have to have been shot like somewhere where he could

• 14:48Speaker 03

  Say something.

• 14:49Josh Clark?

  Tell Lee to, yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:50Josh Clark?

  Get him, get these people out of here alive.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, tells him, I said,

• 14:56Josh Clark?

  Tell the Nazis I said, suck it.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  There's, there's a really funny, uh, oh, yeah, who cares? I'll go a little long. There's a really funny, uh, Dana Gould comedy bit about, uh, his plan on his deathbed is to say, you know, I've buried a million dollars and it's located at.

• 15:21Josh Clark?

  Oh, man.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  And he, and that's kind of funny, but the, the real punchline, they see he's like, you gotta time it just right. He said, otherwise you just have to lay there and pretend you're dead for the remaining minutes of your life. It's pretty good stuff.

• 15:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's great stuff.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  The great Dana Gould. Uh, all right. So, uh, Gongle is taken out. Lee comes up with that plan to get, um, holed up in the keep, which is what a keep is for. That's where you take your last stand in a castle. So it's, you know, not a bad plan. He was like, hey, let's feed this SS into that narrow passage that leads to the keep and just see if we can pick them off one by one as they come in there.

• 15:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And it's not a bad plan, but the chances of anyone in the castle surviving during that plan is pretty low. And then just as things were at their most hopeless, seriously, this is how it happened. That column of tanks that was originally contacted by the Yugoslavian handyman who first made a run for it, led by Major Kramer, show up and they flank the Nazis or attack the Nazis from the rear and just immediately scatter the people besieging this castle and the battle ends almost immediately.

• 16:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, oh man, if this is true, then it just writes itself because supposedly Kramer got to the castle, met up with Captain Lee and Lee said, what kept you?

• 16:40Josh Clark?

  That was a quote from Lee later on recounting it.

• 16:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would punch that up to what took you so long.

• 16:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  With like a little wink or something, but, uh, and then maybe they fall in love.

• 16:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Or, and Kramer responds with, uh, traffic.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  They fought.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  That's so perfect. Uh, you know, very sadly, uh, well, I mean, I guess it's good news that Gong was the only casualty. It's sad that that was him again because he, he was pretty brave for going against his own kind. But he was the only casualty out of all of that. And this ragtag group held off this force until the reinforcements arrived. Like happy ending.

• 17:18Josh Clark?

  Major Lee lived to be an old man. I think he died in the seventies and he was awarded the distinguished service cross for this.

• 17:26Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 17:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Yeah, you're right. This is movie stuff like out the yin yang.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  Right out the yin yang.

• 17:33Josh Clark?

  Which means, of course, short stuff is out.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.