Selects: The Soul Train Episode

In this classic episode, Chuck and Josh dive into the funky, cool world of the classic TV show, Sooooooooul Train. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:08Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. You ever show up late to the game and your friends have already saved your seat and your drink and even a plate? Well, that's looking out, and that's having your back. And that's exactly what AT&T does with the AT&T Guarantee. They know that staying connected matters, so they actually guarantee a network that comes through when it counts. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right, just like that friend who takes care of things before you even ask. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Terms and conditions apply. Just visit att.com/guarantee for details. Hey, everybody. It's Chuck here. It's April 21st, 2020, on our COVID timeline here for the Saturday trip down memory lane. This is a really fun episode, so I'm very excited

• 1:53Speaker 02

  to recommend this app from April 21st, The Soul Train episode, where we take a fun look back at the great, great TV show that was Soul Train.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:18Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there. And this is stuff you should do.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Not bad.

• 2:29Josh Clark?

  Let's hear yours. I know you can do it.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  The Soul Train. It's so much higher than that.

• 2:36Josh Clark?

  That was good, though. But you dropped it down into your range and it still was, you made it your own, I think, is what I'm trying to say. And I like it.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Which is old white guy version.

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  So you're not old, you're just middle aged now.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Uh, okay, sure.

• 2:52Josh Clark?

  Well, let me ask you this, Chuck. Were you aware of Soul Train while it was on?

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  Okay, then you're super old.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  I loved Soul Train.

• 3:00Josh Clark?

  Sure. So I was a solid gold man myself. But I can get on some Soul Train for sure, especially like vintage stuff these days.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I've watched Solid Gold, to be sure, an American Bandstand, but I was just a rabid consumer of popular culture and television and music growing up. So before MTV came along and completely changed my life, because that's all I watched, was shows like Soul Train were where I could, because, you know, often I couldn't stay up to watch late night talk shows where you see performances. Like, this is where I got to see live music before I could start going seeing live music.

• 3:45Josh Clark?

  Right. Oh, yeah. That was, and that was a huge draw of it, for sure. Like, the idea of just being able to tune in on Saturday at 11 a.m., depending on where you were, and seeing like, somebody like Marvin Gaye or Stevie Wonder perform.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 3:58Josh Clark?

  Like, that was, that was a big deal, especially, like you're saying, if you were too young and fell asleep too early to go to a proper show.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 4:05Josh Clark?

  But even more than that, and like, that was a huge, huge mark that Soul Train left, was just presenting that. But that had been done before. There was American Bandstand. There were all sorts of like, kind of dance party TV shows. So it didn't exactly pioneer in that sense. But what it did pioneer in is that the people that was presenting, African Americans, teenagers, um, who were hip and their own people and part of black culture and presenting it in a way that like was an apologetic, that wasn't, um, critical, that didn't, didn't portray it in some sort of negative light or in a way that, you know, was trying to get white people to understand it.

• 4:48Josh Clark?

  Just presenting it as it was and celebrating it, that's where Soul Train like really broke through. And it's very, very difficult to overstate how revolutionary and groundbreaking Soul Train was, especially for how simple the show format was, basically.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, like you said, Bandstand had been around since 1952 and this, uh, you know, kind of was known as the black American Bandstand. And it followed that format. It was, you know, people, a live music performance, um, a host interviewing and talking to these people, uh, these musicians afterward briefly. And then beyond that, just awesome music spinning on the turntable and amazing dancing, amazing outfits, amazing hairstyles, and just a celebration of black culture. It was really, really cool. And, um, the point is made in, in this, uh, in this article that they put together for

• 5:48Speaker 02

  us, but, um, it was, it was definitely, um, by black people and for black people, but it was an introduction to black culture to white kids like me, little eight-year-old Chuck in Stone Mountain, Georgia, sitting around watching the Soul Train dance line.

• 6:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I can imagine it was mind-blowing, Chuck. Like, um, I think it wasn't just, you know, it wasn't like you were necessarily sheltered where you were growing up, whether you were or not, it kind of doesn't matter. It was that there, there was no place for you to be exposed to this prior to Soul Train. That if you saw a black guy on TV, it was, say, on the news and he was being arrested for something.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:30Josh Clark?

  They, you know, he was involved in a protest and the protest was kind of presented in a particularly negative, agitatty light. Or he was a sidekick on TV, or a servant, or in some kind of goofy comedy or something like that. Like, Soul Train didn't do that. There was no, there was no subscribing to all like the preconceived notions that there had been before. It was just its own thing. It was like, hey, by the way, we've been, you know, we have our own culture over here. You guys have ignored all this time. We're gonna put it on TV and show it off. And if you like it, awesome. If you don't, get lost.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Dave, I thought it was kind of astute that he said it was kind of like a lifestyle brand before that was such a thing. Because these people were influencers. What you saw on Soul Train, you, you wanted to dance like that. You wanted to wear those clothes. If someone debuted a sweet move that you saw on Saturday morning, you would practice that move in your living room and then debut it at your club that night.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  And there were like some pretty sweet moves that were debuted on Soul Train.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  The sweetest.

• 7:41Josh Clark?

  We did an entire episode on the moonwalk, if you'll remember correctly. And that was originally called the backslide. That was created on Soul Train. The robot, the rerun dance.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Man, there's so much sweet roboting going on.

• 7:54Josh Clark?

  Yes. Yeah. And that's where it came from. Apparently, no one did the robot. And like, these were like basically club kids who now had a place to do their club stuff on TV and then go out to the clubs later that night and do some more, and like come up with more stuff. And they'd come bring it to Soul Train again. And then kids would watch that. Kids, college kids, adults would watch this and be like, this is the coolest thing that's on TV right now. And I want to do those dance moves, too.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's read a couple of these quotes that kind of encapsulate how important of a show this was. One is from philosopher, activist, and Harvard professor Cornel West. He said, "I never missed it. Saturday morning, as a graduate, a student at Princeton, I would see it wherever I was. It made available to the world one of the great traditions in American history, which is a history of soul music. Soul music, at its best, taught America, especially young Americans, about color, how to be free, and how to love in a deeper and better way." And this from Common, the actor and rapper. Watching my babysitter get the opportunity to go on Soul Train was like a dream come true for her because Soul Train was the biggest thing then for the black community.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  It gave ordinary, everyday people an opportunity to express themselves. It showed us that we too have a place on TV.

• 9:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I can't imagine what Common's babysitter, how excited she must have been to get to be on Soul Train.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:22Josh Clark?

  Like, that must have been the biggest thing possible. Like, they said it was the hippest trip on television. And like, that was not much of an exaggeration, especially at the time, especially when you compared it to like, American Bandstand at the time, which, when Soul Train came along, you said Bandstand had been on since 1952. Almost two decades by the time Soul Train comes along. And there was a TV critic in 1973 who wrote, I believe for the New York Times, that comparing Soul Train to the old American Bandstand is like comparing champagne to seltzer. Burns. That had to hurt Dick Clark.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Oh, he did fine.

• 10:00Josh Clark?

  Well, as far as I could tell, everything I've ever heard about him, he was literate. So he very well could have read that. And if not, somebody may have read it to him, and it hurt his feelings. There's no way it didn't.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  So, we can't talk about Soul Train without talking about Don Cornelius.

• 10:15Josh Clark?

  No.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Don Cornelius was the host and creator of Soul Train.

• 10:19Josh Clark?

  And owner.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  And owner, which is huge. Like, this guy owned his own TV show, which was not a very common thing to happen. Still is not a common thing.

• 10:30Josh Clark?

  They usually put him in league with Desi Ardennes, who owned I Love Lucy, and Mike Douglas, who owned The Mike Douglas Show. Most of, even like, the creators of a show, you didn't own the show that you created. Like, you, like, have some sort of deal with somebody to help produce it, or a network has exclusive rights to it, or somebody else at least owned some other piece of it. This was 100% Don Cornelius's jam. And there's a legend that kind of goes along with that, that James Brown came on very early on, in like, 1972 or '03. And he was like, so who's backing you on this, man? Who's backing your man? And Don, thank you. I can't do a very good James Brown. And Don Cornelius says, it's just me, James.

• 11:13Josh Clark?

  And apparently, James Brown thought that he didn't fully understand the question. So he kind of asked it again, didn't think to rephrase it in different words, just asked the same question. Don Cornelius answers in the same way. He says, it's just me, James. Like, he got what he was saying, and he was telling him, this is mine, 100% mine. Nobody else owns it. It's totally my show. And I don't think anybody else could have done it like Don Cornelius did. He was perfect for Soul Train. And I think the reason why is because it came from him. Like, it was his creation and his baby.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 11:49Josh Clark?

  I'm a little worked up, so yeah, maybe so.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  All right, you're gonna work on your rerun dance. We're gonna take a little break, and we'll go back and talk about young Don Cornelius, right after this.

• 12:14Speaker 04

  Word up, Jerry.

• 12:16Speaker 05

  First thought is like, wow, how are we gonna do all this?

• 12:18Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 12:21Speaker 02

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• 12:37Speaker 05

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• 12:45Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

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• 13:08Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 13:12Speaker 07

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  You know, you're never done decorating your home. You know what I mean?

• 13:21Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do or buy or update. The only question is, what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly. It's usually a new rug.

• 13:32Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, whether you need a rug or whatever is next for you, you can go to Wayfair. It's the smart place to get it.

• 13:39Speaker 02

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• 13:50Josh Clark?

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• 14:16Josh Clark?

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• 14:40Speaker 02

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• 14:52Josh Clark?

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• 15:23Speaker 02

  All right, so young Don was born in Chicago, on the South Side, in the neighborhood of Bronzeville, known as the Black Metropolis. He was the son of a postal worker and was a Marine. He joined the Marines after high school, fought in South Korea. After that, comes home to Chicago, sells cars for a little while, sells insurance for a little while, and then says, "I want to be a cop."

• 15:49Josh Clark?

  "I want to be a popo."

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Yep, and he was a popo.

• 15:51Josh Clark?

  Also in there somewhere, he married, I believe it's high school sweetheart, and has two kids. So by the time he's a cop, he's married with two kids at home, two sons. And one day, there's a story, an urban legend, that as far as I know is true. Let me smell it.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Well, then it's not an urban legend, it's just a story.

• 16:10Josh Clark?

  It could be a true urban legend.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 16:12Josh Clark?

  We're going to come up with an entirely different category right now, Chuck.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:15Josh Clark?

  So, Don Cornelius, Officer Cornelius, pulls the guy over, and that guy happened to be the news director, Roy Wood, for a local AM radio station, WVON. And as Roy Wood is getting this ticket written up by Officer Cornelius, he's like, "Hey, man, your voice is astounding." Because if you've never heard Don Cornelius's voice, press pause right now, go onto YouTube, just listen to some Soul Train intros from him. He was an amazingly hip cat with one of the best voices of all time.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, he also... He also pulled over the guy and said, "License and registration, baby."

• 16:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  So that helped.

• 16:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, dude is Sammy Davis Jr. pulling him over now.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  "Hey, babe, give me your license and registration."

• 17:02Josh Clark?

  That was so good. So, anyway, the guy is like, "You have a really great voice. Have you ever considered going into radio?" And Don Cornelius says... I haven't until now, but I'm gonna give it some thought. And not only does he give it some thought. It's not clear whether he actually gave Roy Wood the ticket or not. But he, he actually quits being a cop. Goes and takes a three-month broadcasting course with a wife and two sons at home. So this is a pretty big risk on his part. And tries out for a part as a radio announcer at WVON and gets hired after a three-month course because his voice was that great.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:41Josh Clark?

  And because his persona was that hip, too.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  So yes, Don Cornelius, the, the voice of gold, the golden tonsils.

• 17:52Josh Clark?

  Is that what they call the velvet fog?

• 17:55Speaker 02

  That was Mel Dormey.

• 17:56Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. I always get those two confused.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  And Noel on Movie Crush, his nickname is Smokey Velvet.

• 18:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  I'm not sure where that came from. Maybe I made it up.

• 18:05Josh Clark?

  Smokey Gullet?

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Smokey Velvet.

• 18:08Josh Clark?

  Oh, Smokey Velvet. Smokey Gullet.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  That's really gross. So he becomes a DJ at the radio station, like you said, and then is hired as a reporter, a news reporter on TV for WCIU TV. He covered sports, he covered, uh, covered civil rights stuff. He had a show for the news program called A Black's View of the News, uh, which is, you know, something you could only get away with in the 1960s.

• 18:38Josh Clark?

  I think early 70s, but, oh, yeah, you're right. It would have been the 60s, sorry.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he, uh, he interviewed Jesse Jackson, he interviewed Martin Luther King.

• 18:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Uh, still DJing at night. And he hosted the series of house parties and club appearances all over Chicago. And he would take the train to get to these places. So he called these parties, uh, the Soul Train. That's where the name came from.

• 19:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So he's like a, a TV broadcaster by day, radio, radio DJ and sock hop DJ by night. Comes up with this Soul Train idea. And again, so this is like in his first year after taking a three-month broadcasting course, after pulling over a radio executive who told him he had a good voice. And he's like, you know what? I'm happy doing news and civil rights reporting and I'm part of, you know, this group called The Good Guys, these, uh, black DJs out of Chicago that were kind of known as the arbiters of cool. But, um, He said that he had, he later said that he had this burning desire to see black people depicted on television in a positive light. And he decided that the best way to do that was to

• 19:43Josh Clark?

  kind of take these parties, these sock hops and just kind of cool Chicago house parties that he was DJing and just put them on TV. That like that would basically be enough. That if people just saw how cool these parties were and how fun they were and how much like how, what a celebration of like black culture they were just in and of themselves, that that could be a TV show by itself. And that was the original Soul Train.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  That's right. And very key, he went to his TV station, WCIU, and said, I want to shoot a pilot for this thing, baby. And they said, uh, sure, but we're not going to front the money. And he said, I'll pay for it. Little did he know what a fortuitous move that was.

• 20:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Because I think had they funded it, they would have had a real claim to it legally. But he put up 400 bucks of his own money, shot a pilot. It didn't look that great. It was in black and white, but it was a big hit immediately. And he said, not because it was wonderful, but because it was theirs. It belonged to the black people.

• 20:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  A year later, he moves to LA and said, I'm going to do the show for real here. This is where it became nationally syndicated, which, you know, I don't know when we talked about TV syndication, but that's basically when it's not owned and run on a major network, but you sell it to each local TV station in whatever city.

• 21:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I don't know what we would have talked about that on either, but I would, I think we should do an entire episode on TV syndication. I'll bet it was world changing.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 21:17Josh Clark?

  So when he moved it to Los Angeles in 1971, that black and white Soul Train, it used to be on every weekday. They continued that. So it was like, it was two things. It was a Full color, nationally syndicated television show out of LA. But it was also a black and white, local, weekly, weekday television show out of Chicago at the same time, for like a good five years, they were both running at the same time. And so, Don Cornelius was at the helm of both. So on Fridays, he would fly out to LA, shoot four episodes, two on Saturday, two on Sunday, and then fly back in time to be there for the afternoon, black and white, Monday, episode of the Chicago local Soul Train.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Amazing, working hard.

• 22:03Josh Clark?

  He was working hard, yes, that's right.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  So, it was a very popular show right out of the gate, but advertising was always kind of a struggle, because mainstream brands didn't quite know what to make of it, they didn't, this was kind of the first show of its kind. But that did open the door for Johnson Products, another black-owned Chicago business from husband and wife team, George and Joanne Johnson, that they started in 1954. And these commercials are so great, too. They sold beauty and hair care products to African-Americans, so Afro Sheen and Ultra Sheen were the two big ones in the two big commercials you see. And they became as much as part of the fabric of the show, almost, as like the Soul Train liner, the performers, or anything else, really.

• 22:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I mean, like, I think in large part because they were, they were like ArtStamps.com, like, one of the earliest and longest-running sponsors, right? So, when they came on, what they were promoting with Afro Sheen and Ultra Sheen was radical, and that it's saying, like, "Just let your hair grow naturally." These are hair products for African-Americans to use when they're growing their hair naturally, not following, like, white beauty standards, right? So it was like a perfect sponsor for Soul Train, which is a celebration of black culture for itself. The Johnson family of products were promoting black culture in its, like, natural state, too. So it was like, just perfect to go hand in hand.

• 23:32Josh Clark?

  I think they kind of worked with each other. But also were important, independent of one another. But when you put them together, it was like greater than the sum of its parts even.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it was, um, it was a big deal culturally. Not only was it a big hit, but like people like Jesse Jackson said, Don Cornelius is right up there with any civil rights leader of our generation. He gave people the chance to feel good about themselves.

• 23:55Josh Clark?

  That's pretty great.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Uh, and like I said, I was a little white kid watching it. There's this lady, Madeline Weeks, who was a fashion editor at GQ. She was a little white girl in Virginia and she said, I watched Soul Train religiously every week, loved it from beginning to end. Even the Afro Sheen and Ultra Sheen ads were heaven. It had the funkiest, most stylish, sexiest dancers. Everybody looked like they were having the best time. All the girls looked gorgeous. Who wouldn't want to look like that? I was just a little kid living in the countryside in Virginia and I lived for it.

• 24:27Josh Clark?

  That's something else.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  It's pretty great.

• 24:29Josh Clark?

  Well, you want to take a, a break and then get back into what it was like to watch Soul Train?

• 24:33Speaker 02

  And be on it, you know, I was a guest.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  Yes, I can't wait. We're going to debut that clip live.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  All right, let's do it.

• 24:59Josh Clark?

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• 25:22Speaker 02

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 25:35Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 27:39Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, so we're back. There was one little thing that I wanted to include about WCIU, the original Chicago home with Soul Train. Apparently, it was like a ragtag UHF station, an independent station. And have you ever seen that movie UHF with Weird Al?

• 27:57Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 27:58Josh Clark?

  Oh, it's so good. But it actually is not too far off from WCIU. They would play Lithuanian and Polish language talk shows, Amos and Andy, bullfights from Mexico. Like, they just had this weird assemblage of TV shows.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Of awful programming.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  But then their in-house programming was made by like this ragtag kind of group of inexperienced people. And there's, I read in the Chicago Reader, this kind of oral history of the local version of Soul Train. The head cameraman at WCIU had strabismus and couldn't use the viewfinder in the camera. It was like that kind of ragtag group that just kind of got it done somehow.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 28:41Josh Clark?

  I just love that little tidbit.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  That's pretty cool.

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  All right. So if you watch Soul Train, the first thing that you would see when the show starts is that classic

• 28:51Speaker 02

  animated intro of that freight train rolling into the city. So cool, so iconic. Then you see Don Cornelius, always dressed to the nines.

• 29:01Josh Clark?

  Man.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  The coolest cat maybe to ever be on television.

• 29:04Josh Clark?

  Would make Billy Dee weep with jealousy.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  He was, because he was a DJ previously, he was, he just had that DJ lingo down.

• 29:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  You know, they put in one of the things, "It's gonna be a stone gas, honey." Like, all that 70s sort of shaft-like talk was, was just who Don Cornelius was.

• 29:27Josh Clark?

  Let me, let me try my hand at it. You ready?

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:30Josh Clark?

  "It's gonna be a stone gas, honey."

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 29:34Josh Clark?

  That sounded like a CB trucker from the 70s somehow.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  "It's gonna be a stone gas, honey." I don't know what my problem is.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Hey, not bad.

• 29:46Josh Clark?

  Don't lie to me, Chuck.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  Josh Cornelius.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Uh, you had your musical guests, like we said, just like American Bandstand. Um, I think sometimes they lip synced and sometimes they really sang.

• 29:58Josh Clark?

  Early on, they lip synced across the board.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it kind of depends on who the artist is too.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Patti LaBelle, Barry White, Aretha Franklin, Stevie Wonder, James Brown, Al Green, like just a murderer's row of rhythm and blues and soul performers. Uh, I think Gladys Knight and the Pips was on the first syndicated episode.

• 30:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and like that was a huge favor that he called in and Gladys totally delivered by being on that first nationally syndicated episode because it drew a lot of attention. And apparently from that point on, uh, he was, uh, he was always very, um, deferential saying, you know, if it weren't for Gladys, none of this would be here right now.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Oh, that's nice.

• 30:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was pretty cool of her. Have you ever eaten at Gladys Knight's House of Chicken and Waffles?

• 30:43Speaker 02

  What do you think?

• 30:44Josh Clark?

  I'm thinking you probably have multiple times, but we've never discussed it.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, when I lived in LA, I was a regular at Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles, but, um, yeah, Gladys Knight does it right as well.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  Yes, she does. Have you ever had the smothered chicken there?

• 30:57Speaker 02

  Hmm, I don't think so. Was it like gravy or something?

• 31:01Josh Clark?

  Yes, and it is even better than the chicken and waffles.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Really?

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  I can't not get the chicken and waffles, though.

• 31:08Josh Clark?

  Get both.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 31:10Josh Clark?

  Just get both. There's no reason to hold back at Gladys Knight's House of Chicken and Waffles.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and eat a little bit of both and take the rest home.

• 31:17Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Or eat it all.

• 31:19Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Um, so Soul Train, of course, the, the musical performances were great and classic and iconic, but it's the dancing that is, uh, what it's really known for. Uh, they got, they scouted out some of these dancers. They would go to the clubs and they did this on American Bandstand and other shows too that had, uh, that had dancers. They would go find like the flyest dancers in the clubs, invite them to be on the show, and everyone else had to audition, like thousands of people would line up and audition with their dance moves to be a Soul Train dancer.

• 31:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and like, again, like Commons babysitter was saying, like, that was a big deal to be picked. And some were recruited, like you're saying, from the clubs. And those particular dancers were usually so good that they would rise to like, national prominence. Like, the camera just couldn't avoid them. They also were no slouches at learning how to play to the camera, too.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 32:17Josh Clark?

  When the camera was on them or anywhere near them. But one of the ways that everybody shined, too, whether you got a lot of camera time or not, was in the Soul Train line, which became a really regular feature of each episode, where everybody just kind of be clapping and standing on two sides, and then a couple would come down, usually a couple, sometimes it was solo, would come down and do some crazy dance moves, and really get a chance to like, show off and kind of capture the attention of the viewing audience.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you've never gone on YouTube and looked at Soul Train line videos, first of all, I'm surprised that you exist as a human. And secondly, just do it and then look up at the clock two hours later, because you will be able to do nothing but watch those video clips. It's amazing.

• 33:09Josh Clark?

  And what's cool about it, too, is you can put it to any kind of super cool music, and it sounds really great. And looks really great.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  What, you like, mute it and put on different music?

• 33:19Josh Clark?

  No, no, but other people have like, put their own tracks or other people's tracks to video of Soul Train, and it works really well.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 33:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  I like the real music.

• 33:29Josh Clark?

  Sure. Real music isn't bad either.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Jungle Boogie one is really good, in particular.

• 33:34Josh Clark?

  That is a good one.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  So they'd filmed four episodes in a weekend. Apparently, the dancers worked pretty hard, and Cornelius was pretty demanding of them. You couldn't chew gum, you couldn't curse. His mantra was, be on time, be tactful, be creative, be funky, and be yourself.

• 33:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Words to live by.

• 33:56Josh Clark?

  They were unpaid, too, typically. I guess you would be paid if you were dancing to a performer. But if you were part of the segments where it was just them playing music and people were dancing, you were unpaid. I think they'd feed you, because, again, you're doing two episodes. Uh, over two days, so four total, like you were saying. Um, and I mean, you're dancing like the whole time. And I'm guessing that these things probably took longer than an hour. They didn't just do an hour and that was it with no retakes or edits or anything like that. So I'm not sure how long it actually took to, to film an actual episode. But you were basically dancing the entire time. Two episodes back to back twice over a weekend.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  I bet it was fun too, though.

• 34:43Josh Clark?

  I'm sure it was fun too. I also get the impression that it was a little competitive.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 34:48Josh Clark?

  Although there's a guy who, um, frequently gets overshadowed by Don Cornelius, but is known as his right hand man. His name was Clinton Ghent and he was one of the, uh, the kind of co-creators of Soul Train. Or he was there from the beginning in Chicago. And he had a real eye for finding those dancers in the clubs. He was one of the ones who would go scout dancers. Um, but not only of finding people who had like really crazy good moves and getting them to come on to Soul Train, but of putting all sorts of different dancers who would normally be pretty competitive with one another, finding groups that would kind of gel together like a family. So that when you go back and watch Soul Train episodes, or when you were watching it when they were coming on the first time,

• 35:29Josh Clark?

  you've, you, you weren't like sitting there seeing like dancers like kind of sniping one another, backbiting or pushing each other out of the way. It did kind of have this really family vibe every episode. And apparently that was the work of that Clinton Ghent guy who, who just really knew how to put people together.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that GQ, uh, editor really nailed it. Like it, it just looked like every, it just looked like a party you wanted to be at. Like everyone was having a good time.

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  So some of the, um, some of these dancers went on to be famous and were kind of discovered there. Uh, Jody Watley, uh, the singer, she started out as a teenager on Soul Train. And Don Cornelius was like, you're super talented. I'm a businessman. Um, I'm going to pair you with this other guy, Jeffrey Daniel, and you guys should record music together. And that little group went on to be Shalimar, of course. In 1977, they got together.

• 36:24Josh Clark?

  And then after Shalimar, Jody Watley went on to become Jody Watley.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  That's right. You mentioned rerun from What's Happening. Nick Cannon, Carmen Electra, which I didn't know that she started out there. That that kind of surprised me.

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  I didn't either. Her real name is Tara Lee Patrick. Did you know that?

• 36:44Speaker 02

  I don't know if I did or not. I knew it wasn't Carmen Electra.

• 36:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, it's not that. Although she looks way more like a Carmen Electra than a Tara Lee Patrick.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, agreed.

• 36:56Josh Clark?

  Doesn't look at all Irish or southern.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Rosie Perez was maybe one of the biggest names to come out of Soul Train. This was in the 80s. Because you know, you think about the salad days of Soul Train and you'd probably think of the 70s, but the 80s were pretty big and it went all the way to 2006. But in the 80s is when the hip hop influence came on and Rosie Perez brought that that Brooklyn, New York City hip hop flavor. And if you go back and watch some of her stuff on Soul Train, it's like, the dancing's cool. It's much different than that sort of 70s groove. It was it was that sort of New York City hip hop style.

• 37:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she does it like the beginning of, what is it?

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Do the Right Thing.

• 37:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's her dancing at the beginning of it, right?

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was like straight up Soul Train. That's what she did on Soul Train, which is very much not like what they were doing in LA, too. So she kind of rose to prominence as a Soul Train dancer very quickly. And Don Cornelius apparently was like, hey, I want to lock you into a contract. Rosie Perez, being smart, streetwise Rosie Perez said, that's great. I'll show it to my lawyer. And apparently Don Cornelius didn't like this. And as the story goes, he grabbed Rosie Perez, which is not what you do when somebody says that they want their lawyer to look at a contract you want them to lock into. Or for any reason, really. And to get him Oliver, she threw a piece of the fried chicken she was eating at the time right at his head and hit him in the face.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  That's how the story goes.

• 38:29Josh Clark?

  That's how Rosie Perez tells it, for sure.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, we should mention too, that that is not cool at all. And while we're praising Don Cornelius for his talents as a host, he, he did later in life, when he was a bit older, was, was he arrested? Or was he just charred? I think he was charged with domestic violence against his Russian Ukrainian wife.

• 38:52Josh Clark?

  Yes, he was at least charged. I don't know if he was convicted, but there was a, yeah, he got into an entailment because of that, at least accusation that he had abused her. And then also apparently intimidated a witness into changing their story. He was charged with that as well. It was, from what I understand, though, this all took place over a single night and possibly within a very short period of time over a single night. Not at all trying to justify or excuse it, but it, I don't, I don't know the story behind it at all. But I, I think it's worth pointing out, like, Don Cornelius was not just a straight up, like, nothing but a smooth, cool cat.

• 39:36Josh Clark?

  He was a complex human being who had faults as well, too.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:40Josh Clark?

  And flaws and all that. I mean, grabbing Rosie Perez is bad enough alone.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Sure. You know what you get? You get the old chicken wing to the forehead.

• 39:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you do. I, you would think, like, even before she was a star, you'd know, just hanging out with her a little bit, not to mess with Rosie Perez.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  No, I would never mess with Rosie Perez.

• 39:57Josh Clark?

  He didn't know that.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  His signature sign off was, "I'm Don Cornelius, and as always in parting, we wish you love, peace, and soul."

• 40:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. There were a couple of other people who kind of rose to prominence, too. Cheryl Song, she was the first Asian dancer on Soul Train, and she said she had to really kind of prove herself, that she wasn't just like the token, non-African-American dancer, that she was actually a really good dancer, and she did. And then Jermaine Stewart, who you might recognize as the singer of "We Don't Have To Take Our Clothes Off." And it's pretty cute, because he came back home and performed it on Soul Train in 1986. And when Don Cornelius was introducing him, he was saying, "He made good, and we're all very proud of him."

• 40:40Speaker 02

  And like you mentioned, the Irish Carmen Electra, who I guess stood out because she was River Dancing on Soul Train. And everyone's like, what is that?

• 40:49Josh Clark?

  What is that? But then everybody wanted to do it because it was Carmen Electra doing it.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  So Soul Train was so popular and Dick Clark, I guess, didn't feel like he had enough money as a TV mogul and an icon on American Bandstand. So he went, hey, I'm gonna start my own Soul Train and try and bury Don Cornelius.

• 41:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  And I'm gonna call it Soul Unlimited. I'm gonna put it on ABC and it was, you can see clips of it on YouTube. It didn't last long, but it was a literal ripoff of Soul Train. And you might say Soul Train was a ripoff of American Bandstand. Fair enough. But for him to go after the African American market like that, I don't think was very cool.

• 41:37Josh Clark?

  No, it isn't very cool. I could see Dick Clark being a little blind to the larger implications of it, you know? And, you know, I don't know if he was involved in its canceling or not, but, you know, some some black leaders did get it canceled. They started a campaign to say like, no, just leave this one alone. I don't know if, how easily Dick Clark went along with it or not. I like to think he was like, oh, okay. I see the error of my ways now and dropped it. But yeah, only a few episodes came out. Either way, Soul Train was left to like stand on its own, you know?

• 42:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, which

• 42:10Josh Clark?

  And I think rightfully so, too.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  There were other performers. Later on, they would have white performers. David Bowie famously was on there.

• 42:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, did you watch that?

• 42:20Speaker 02

  I did. Did a

• 42:21Josh Clark?

  That was awful.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Did a pretty bad lip sync job, which Cornelius gave him, kinda teased him about. And then Elton John, who was, who's always had a pretty big following in the African American community.

• 42:32Josh Clark?

  I didn't know that. Did you?

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. He wrote, he wrote about it in his autobiography that I read last year.

• 42:38Josh Clark?

  That's cool.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  I think it started when Aretha Franklin covered Burn Down the Mission, if I'm not mistaken.

• 42:47Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Was that the one she recorded? I think that's the way it went down.

• 42:50Josh Clark?

  I've never heard of that song before.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  What is wrong with you? You've never heard Burn Down the Mission?

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  I don't think so. I'm not the biggest Elton John fan. I mean, I'm fine with him, but I really don't like a lot of his 70s stuff, like a lot. I really don't like it.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 43:07Josh Clark?

  But I like his 80s stuff, like the whole I'm Still Standing thing.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 43:10Josh Clark?

  It's good. It was Burn Down the Mission before that?

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that was, that was in the 70s.

• 43:15Josh Clark?

  My follow up question is, what, what, what problem did he have with the mission?

• 43:20Speaker 02

  He didn't write it.

• 43:21Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  Bernie Taupin wrote all his lyrics.

• 43:24Josh Clark?

  Oh, I see. Now, I am a Bernie Taupin fan.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  You're a national treasure.

• 43:32Josh Clark?

  Thank you.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  So Elton John was on a couple of times and it's pretty sweet if you look at the one, I'm not sure if it was the Philadelphia Freedom one or.

• 43:42Josh Clark?

  I hate that song.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Or the other one. It's such a good song. But he, they, you know, he takes questions and you can tell he's kind of shy and a little nervous. And he takes some questions from the, from the people, from the dancers and stuff, which was kind of cool. But it's just very sweet to see how nervous he was.

• 43:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Cause he's, he's known for being a humble, humble spirit.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Is he?

• 44:06Josh Clark?

  No.

• 44:08Josh Clark?

  Have you ever seen that documentary they made or he self made or no, his partner made? His partner was the only one he would let, you know, follow him around with the camera, which is pretty understandable. But it came out in the last, like, I don't know, decade or less?

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. The Tantrums and Tierras, I think.

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  Yes. Yeah, yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:24Josh Clark?

  It was great, man. I loved it.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's good. I like that Rocketman movie a lot, too.

• 44:28Josh Clark?

  I have not seen that. I saw it, I saw it over someone else's shoulders on a plane.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  You wouldn't like it?

• 44:35Josh Clark?

  I didn't. I, no, it didn't look like anything I would like.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  No, if you don't like Elton John, you wouldn't like the movie about Elton John.

• 44:41Josh Clark?

  No, and again, Sir Elton, I have no problem with you personally. It's just that, that period through 70s, the 70s, like Crocodile Rock, the one about like Philadelphia Freedom.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  You know, all those bad 70s albums, Mad Men Across the Water and Captain Fantastic and Goodbye, Ellerbrook Road, those are all terrible.

• 45:00Josh Clark?

  Exactly. I feel understood Chuck, thank you.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  So, the 80s come along and 1983, Don Cornelius has brain surgery, takes a little time off. He comes back, Soul Train has changed their look a little bit to try and fit with kind of what's going on at the time with like Whitney Houston and people like that. And then hip hop and rap come along and apparently Don Cornelius is not a big fan.

• 45:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I think I read, I can't remember, I read a really great article in Dazed about it, or there's another pretty good one that was a review of the recent TV biopic about him and Soul Train on The Guardian. It basically explained it like that Don Cornelius was like a mid-century integration-minded black businessman and that he and his ilk and generation, they had been working toward like, you know, getting a piece of the pie that didn't necessarily, it wasn't the white pie, it was the pie that white people controlled. And if you were, you know, if you, if you made your way to get a piece of this, like

• 46:13Josh Clark?

  you could, you could be black and still enjoy the good life. And that hip hop reminded him of everything that he and his generation had kind of tried to work beyond and past and to integrate. And that to him, it was a step backwards. So, he wasn't vibing on it at all. My own personal take is that he was a smooth customer and he appreciated smoothness and hip hop, especially 80s hip hop, was the opposite of smooth. And so, he was not vibing on it at all. And he even referred to himself as an old guy sometimes when he was interviewing, you know, some of the hip hop artists who came on Soul Train in the 80s.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I watched one of the Public Enemy clips and it was weird. Afterward, he like, he basically ignores Chuck D and like talks only to Flavor Flav.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  And then finally turns to Chuck and was like, and now Chuck D, he said, you must feel so blessed to have have someone as talented as Flava as your partner.

• 47:18Josh Clark?

  What, really?

• 47:18Speaker 02

  It was really weird. And Chuck D was like, yeah, you know, he's quite a character.

• 47:23Josh Clark?

  As you can see.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just, I don't know. It really came off as like Don Cornelius doesn't understand this. Not, I'm not dissing Flav, but like Chuck D was like the, he was the leader of that band, you know?

• 47:36Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah. He was the brains behind the outfit for sure. And I mean, like, yeah, Flava Flav's just like, he's, he's like fills in the kind of hardness of Chuck D.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:50Josh Clark?

  I, I don't, yeah. If you think Public Enemy, it's definitely Flava Flav and Chuck D, but it's Chuck D.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  You know what I mean? And then Flava Flav.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was definitely a strange interview because I thought finally he's going to talk to Chuck D and he's like, you must feel so good about having this guy as your partner.

• 48:05Josh Clark?

  Which, uh, which one was that after? Cause they were on at least twice on the regular show by my count and then once on the Soul Train Awards at least.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember.

• 48:14Josh Clark?

  So it's not like he wasn't smart enough to know that they were big and should be on anyway, whether he liked them or not. But they did, they did Can't Trust It in 1991 and they did Rebel Without a Pause in 1987. And I could not find the interview segment. I just saw like the, the performance and they were both like really great.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Well, it was very sweet and actually, um, it would have had to been the nineties one because afterward Flava Flav asked for a, uh, a moment of silence for the passing of Miles Davis and Red Fox.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  And they take a moment of silence.

• 48:51Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was cool.

• 48:52Josh Clark?

  So, um, and that's actually, we just, um, in case we haven't gotten this across enough yet, Soul Train again was, it never got away from like its black roots. Like it never sold out or anything like that. Like it was like, that makes perfect sense that they would include that part. They wouldn't just edit that out in the episode that they published.

• 49:14Josh Clark?

  That was just part of it, even as late as the early 90s.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the early 90s is when Don Cornelius finally had to step down. May 10, 1993 was his final episode. He passed it on to the younger generation. It went all the way to 2006 and became the longest running syndicated show in TV history.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, 35 seasons.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 49:37Josh Clark?

  And that those younger, that younger generation that he handed the reins over to, some of the temporary hosts included Jamie Foxx got his start, Tyra Banks, and Shamar Moore from Criminal Minds. He was a longtime stand-in host.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Really?

• 49:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he's big time now.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  I don't know who that is.

• 49:56Josh Clark?

  I don't watch Criminal Minds either, but you've seen enough like ads for Criminal Minds that you would recognize, I'm sure.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Very sadly, Don Cornelius took his own life. He was suffering from Alzheimer's and apparently was having a lot of seizures and just in a pretty bad way physically. And his son said that that was, that was the reason why he took his own life.

• 50:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Well, plus he'd also sold the rights, I think, to Soul Train 2. And it seems like things kind of started to go downhill for him around then, I think in 2008.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:32Josh Clark?

  But yeah, apparently it was a really big surprise to everybody who knew him that he, he died by suicide. That that was not the perceived outcome for him, I think.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:45Josh Clark?

  But his legacy lives on. Like you said, I mean, the 35 seasons, the longest running syndicated television show of all time in and of itself, it's an incredible achievement. But also to be like a cornerstone of like introducing black culture as black culture to the larger culture as a whole and white culture.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  Huge.

• 51:04Josh Clark?

  Is, yeah, I mean, that's, that's about as big an accomplishment as you can make. It's like Jesse Jackson said, he was as important as any civil rights leader.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 51:15Josh Clark?

  So that's Don Cornelius and Soul Train.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  That's how it went.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about that, you don't need to know anything else. Just start going watching clips of Soul Train and you will be a happier person than you were before you started.

• 51:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, get ready for some sick robot action.

• 51:35Josh Clark?

  It's so great. And rerun, too. Can't forget about rerun. Fred Berry.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  No, that's sweet.

• 51:41Josh Clark?

  Well, since we talked about Fred Berry, that means everybody, obviously. It's time for listener mail.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Uh, this is about Iron Maiden. Uh, hey, guys, listened to your short stuff on 666 and loved it. Uh, more so for Josh's thoughts on Iron Maiden. Hardest working band in business. Seen them twice. I've been a Maiden fan for about 15 years and I gotta say, Josh was right on the money when he said Power Slave was the album to listen to if you've never really given them a chance. So Chuck, whip out that old beanbag, roll up a fatty, crack open a cold one and crank up some Maiden. You'll be glad you did. Uh, also, just want to say thank you both for the awesome work you do. I'm spewing, which must be Australian for angry. He says, I'm spewing because I couldn't get to your show when you came to Perth.

• 52:31Josh Clark?

  I think so, yeah. Yeah, you missed a good show. That was, I was thinking about how cool that town was the other day.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, Perth was cool. Uh, your discussion and delivery of interesting, exciting topics week after week transmute information and understanding into very enjoyable entertainment into my ear holes, bringing much joy not just to my commute but to my work life. Lots of love from Mandurah, Western Australia, and that is from Ty.

• 52:55Josh Clark?

  Ty, I like this person.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:57Josh Clark?

  First of all, Ty says that I'm right, which I love.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:01Josh Clark?

  Likes Iron Maiden, loves Iron Maiden, you could say.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 53:04Josh Clark?

  And is upset that we, that, that they missed our show.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  We'll be back.

• 53:09Josh Clark?

  Sure, we will be. Hey, you know, we're like number one in Australia as far as podcasts go right now.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  I heard that, man. They're, they're practically begging for us to come back.

• 53:17Josh Clark?

  We'll, we'll come back and we'll definitely go to Perth again. So don't worry, Ty. We'll, we'll be there. Just keep an ear out, keep your ear holes out.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 53:24Josh Clark?

  Uh, if you want to be cool like Ty and get in touch with us, um, you can do that. You can send us an email to [email protected].

• 53:37Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 53:53Speaker 04

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• 54:36Speaker 04

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• 55:17Speaker 04

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• 55:23Josh Clark?

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• 55:54Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.