Selects: The Skinny on Lyme Disease

If you live in the Northeastern U. S. then you may know someone who has had Lyme disease. But it's spreading all over the country and parts of the world. Learn all about this tick-borne disease in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:52Josh Clark?

  And for this week's S Y S Case Select, I've chosen our September 2019 episode on Lyme Disease. This one's pretty fascinating because it turns out Lyme Disease has a ton of intrigue associated with it. It started out with a cluster of weird symptoms of people in Connecticut, and then they finally figured out it was coming from ticks. But the mystery wasn't over because people started developing chronic Lyme, and at first, the medical community didn't believe they had any disease whatsoever. They thought it was all in their heads. Well, they were wrong. You can find out about all this and more in this episode on Lyme Disease. Enjoy.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there. This is Stuff You Should Know, uh, the podcast. And Chuck, I have a question for you.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:58Josh Clark?

  You know what ticks me off?

• 3:01Josh Clark?

  Lyme disease.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  I'm so mad at you.

• 3:06Josh Clark?

  Blame Yumi for that one. She's like, "You should say this." And I said, "You know what, dear, I should totally say that."

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is sort of a follow-up to our July 27, 2010 episode, Why Ticks Suck, which, uh, in which, which is sort of a legendary episode because we falsely promised to send people T-shirts if they made it all the way through the episode.

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  That's right, that's right.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  We were just kidding, but we still get those requests of, "Where's my shirt?"

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  Yes, that's hilarious. I forgot about that.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  And also wanna-

• 3:36Josh Clark?

  We'd get sued today.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, probably so. Um, also want to point out and shout out our former website, HowStuffWorks.com, because a couple of the articles that we used for much of this episode is from the old HSW website.

• 3:52Josh Clark?

  Nice. They're holding it down over there.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  They're holding it down, and this is some good stuff.

• 3:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so we're talking today about Lyme disease in particular.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  Not limes.

• 4:03Josh Clark?

  No, we should say it's capital L-Y-M-E disease. And the reason it's called that is because it's named after a town, which is one of three towns where the initial outbreak of Lyme disease that led to this bacterial infection, persistent bacterial infection, was first described medically.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, one of the facts of the show, I think.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Sure. Who knew it was named after a town? Lyme, Connecticut.

• 4:29Josh Clark?

  I knew.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  Did you know that before this?

• 4:31Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Did we cover that in Why Ticks Suck?

• 4:33Josh Clark?

  I don't think so.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  All right. Well, you're smarter than me then.

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  No, it's not that. I think what, what got me was I, I heard about people saying, like, "No, Lyme disease, like, people take it for granted, but it's actually some, this really mysterious illness." And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" So I think I looked into this years back, and that's when I found out.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  All right.

• 4:51Josh Clark?

  That was all.

• 4:52Speaker 03

  So we're equally smart.

• 4:53Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. I'm not smarter than you.

• 4:55Speaker 03

  And what is smart? It's just like- Someone happens to know one thing, someone else knows another?

• 5:00Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  I say they cancel out, we're all smart.

• 5:03Josh Clark?

  There you go. I'm glad you pulled that out, because I would have been like, what is smarts?

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  I couldn't have come up with the definition.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  So, Lyme disease, we'll go ahead and hit you with a couple of stats here. Lyme disease in the United States has more than doubled since 1997.

• 5:20Josh Clark?

  That's astounding.

• 5:22Speaker 03

  It is, and it has spread too. It used to be very much localized in kind of the northeast, and sort of mid-Atlantic areas, some in the south. But now, you can get Lyme disease in, I believe, the entire lower 48, is that correct?

• 5:38Josh Clark?

  There are cases in all 48 states. Supposedly, half of the counties in the United States now are considered at high risk for Lyme disease. And like, all of this happened just in the last, like, 20 or so years.

• 5:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:53Josh Clark?

  Which is, I mean, there's a lot of debate over, the CDC calls Lyme disease endemic, which is a disease that has become a, like, an ongoing part of an area or region. And some other people are saying, guys, what we're talking about here is an epidemic. This is an epidemic, and you should start calling it that, because it will kind of raise the alarm to the next level or two, where it should be, because this is a very alarming spread of disease that we're seeing right now. Lyme disease is the number-one vector-borne disease in the United States. It's way more prevalent than things like West Nile, or Chikungunya, or anything like that. But it's still kind of treated as like, up there in the northeastern US thing, and

• 6:38Josh Clark?

  that's just not the case. It's spread, in every direction except east, because it hit the Atlantic. But everywhere else where it can spread into the interior of the United States, and up into Canada, it's starting to.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, and there's also a history continuing to this day even, where Lyme disease can be...

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Overlooked, misdiagnosed, not taken as seriously by your doctor as it should be.

• 7:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Including what we'll get to later on, something called post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome. And it's all very frustrating if you have been a, an individual that has had Lyme disease.

• 7:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  There's a big community out there of people that are like, why won't anyone listen to us? Why won't our doctors take us seriously? And what do we have to do here? Like, do we have to start dropping dead?

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's a tremendous amount of frustration in, in that community because the, there's a sentiment among the medical establishment that, you know.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  Take some antibiotics, you'll be fine.

• 7:38Josh Clark?

  Exactly. It's easy to cure Lyme disease, here's some antibiotics, you still have persistent symptoms? Those are probably in your head. We're not going to say they're in your head, but they're in your head. And the people who are experiencing these symptoms are like, no, my life has, has been derailed by these symptoms and you guys aren't doing anything about it.

• 7:56Speaker 03

  It's frustrating. I know there's a lot of people out there that are pretty, pretty stoked right now to be hearing this.

• 8:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 03

  You know?

• 8:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  We're advocating for you guys.

• 8:04Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  Not patting myself on the back, although I am literally patting myself.

• 8:07Josh Clark?

  Like, I see you, Chuck.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  That elbow's sticking out pretty far.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  So Lyme disease is a disease. It's an infection caused by the bacterium Borrelia burgdorferi.

• 8:22Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  Borgdorferi, burgdorferi.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  We're gonna get you an apron and call you the word butcher.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  Burgdorferi, mork, mork, mork. And we'll get to why it's called that in a bit.

• 8:33Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  But if you haven't caught on by now, it is transmitted through tick bites.

• 8:37Josh Clark?

  Right. So a tick, and in particular, a nymph stage of a tick, which is a, like, young adult or juvenile tick, will transmit this bacteria. The Borrelia burgdorferi into a human. And the reason we usually get it from nymphs, Chuck, is because an adult tick doesn't find humans particularly appetizing.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  No.

• 9:00Josh Clark?

  But a nymph tick will, because they're stupid. They don't know anything yet. So as they're feeding on us, after somewhere maybe around 24 to 36 hours of feeding, this infected tick that has this bacteria in it, the bacteria will make its way from the mid gut to the tick saliva and the tick transmits it into the human bloodstream, where it just absolutely wreaks havoc on the the human body.

• 9:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you said something really key there. Uh, 24, 36, 48 hours later. Really, really important. They have to be attached to you for that long, sometimes even longer, to transmit this bacterium. So if you find a tick on you and you get it off, you don't need to sweat Lyme disease.

• 9:42Josh Clark?

  No.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  If you get it off in due time.

• 9:44Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. If like you see it's still crawling on you, it's unattached, you don't worry about it at all. But when it is attached and when it, when it has transmitted the bacteria, uh, what it's transmitted, this B. burgdorferi is like really amazing at its job, which is infecting you, giving you a bacterial infection.

• 10:05Josh Clark?

  It, it has figured out how to zoom through the bloodstream, but then also take itself out of the bloodstream by latching on to the, the walls of your blood vessels.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, this was crazy about this cellular stuff, that once it's attached to a cell, they said it's like a slinky. It doesn't let go. It just like basically reaches out and grabs the next cell without letting go of the previous cell. And just sort of walks end over end.

• 10:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  Never unattaching itself.

• 10:32Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So, um, as it's moving along, it's never, it, it, it's not going to get kind of, you know, washed away in the extracellular matrix. It's stuck to the cell if it wants to be stuck to the cell. It can do the same thing to the blood vessel walls to pull itself out of the bloodstream and then go attack, you know, specific parts of the body. So it, it's really good at hanging on. That's one thing that makes it kind of pernicious.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Like ticks?

• 10:57Josh Clark?

  And then another thing, exactly. It's basically, yeah, it's like the bacteria version of a tick. I didn't think about that. And then another thing it does Chuck, I think this is really, really recent research. It can actually change its protein expression at a much faster rate than the normal mutation rate for bacteria, something like 15 times faster.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, what that does is that just makes it really hard for our human immune system to catch up to it.

• 11:24Josh Clark?

  Right, because our immune system will produce antibodies based on the initial infection, but by the time the antibodies come around, the bacteria may have changed itself so that the antibodies won't recognize it, they'll just go right past it because it doesn't fit the description that the antibodies have.

• 11:43Speaker 03

  That's right, and you'll know that something bad is happening, first of all, if you find that tick, but if you get headaches, fever, fatigue is a huge, huge symptom.

• 11:55Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 11:55Speaker 03

  But the real telltale is what's called EM, it's an expanding skin rash called erythema migrans, and it's like, it's that circular pattern, and I know we did talk about this on the ticks episode, but

• 12:09Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  It's a circular pattern with what looks like a bull's eye in the center of it.

• 12:13Josh Clark?

  Yes, and you can take off your butcher's apron now because you just, that was beautiful. Put on your chef's hat.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  You're sweating over there.

• 12:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so that, that particular rash, that bull's eye rash, that is like just an absolute telltale sign that you have a Lyme borreolus, borre- uh oh.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Here's the apron.

• 12:35Josh Clark?

  Borreliosis infection, that only comes around in like maybe 70 to 80% of cases. I think if every, if every person got that rash, we would not have this, this problem with Lyme disease because it would be caught very quickly because you get that within usually about a week or less of getting infected, but it doesn't come up in all cases. And with some of those other symptoms, like you said, like weakness, headaches, flu-like symptoms, like those could be a lot of different other things, joint pain, and so the Lyme disease infection goes undiagnosed or misdiagnosed in a lot of cases or did for many, many years.

• 13:19Josh Clark?

  It's just now that they're starting to kind of recognize it or suspect Lyme when otherwise they might not have.

• 13:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, literally hundreds of things can be, can have the same symptoms as Lyme disease. So Lyme's been around for a long time. We'll talk about the history here in a minute as far as the 1970s go and official recognition, but it's been around, I believe Yale School of Public Health find the bacterium in ancient North America, like 60,000 years old.

• 13:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Before the arrival of humans. They have an autopsy of a 5,300-year-old mummy that had Lyme disease.

• 14:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you know, Utsi, the Iceman. Remember him?

• 14:03Speaker 03

  I remember Utsi.

• 14:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I was disappointed that they referred to him as a 5,300-year-old mummy. It's like, no, it's Utsi, the Iceman. Everybody knows him.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  Give him his name.

• 14:12Josh Clark?

  But he had Lyme disease.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  He did, and there was a German physician named Alfred Buckwald, who described this, that EM skin rash that we now call Lyme disease about 130 years ago.

• 14:24Josh Clark?

  Right, so Lyme disease has been around a while, but we are just now seeing a huge, again, an epidemic of it and a massive spread of it, not just in North America, but there's also two other kinds of ticks that transmit to other kinds of Lyme-causing bacteria in Europe and Asia. And in all three places, North America, Europe, and parts of Asia, the incidence of Lyme disease is picking up at an alarming pace.

• 14:55Speaker 03

  I think we should slow down our pace, take a break.

• 14:58Josh Clark?

  Okay, alright.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  And we'll come back and we'll talk about Lyme, Connecticut, right after this.

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• 15:25Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 15:26Speaker 03

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• 15:35Josh Clark?

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• 15:54Josh Clark?

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• 18:41Speaker 03

  All right. So Lime, Connecticut, something that is very old hat to you.

• 18:46Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  Branded to me.

• 18:47Josh Clark?

  I've known about it for years.

• 18:48Speaker 03

  Lime, old Lime, and what was the third town?

• 18:51Josh Clark?

  I don't remember.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  No, let's just call it, uh, New Lime.

• 18:56Speaker 03

  It was not New Lime.

• 18:56Josh Clark?

  They're gonna be so mad. Their high school football team is gonna go berserk on old Lime this year.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  Uh, in the 1970s, though, there were a group of children and adults in these towns in Connecticut that were having all these weird symptoms. Uh, swollen knees, skin rashes, headaches, uh, all this severe fatigue. And it's bad enough these days, but in the early 1970s, doctors were definitely, did not have this on the radar and were very dismissive of what was going on in these towns. And if it were not for the work of Judith Minch and Polly Murray, two just regular moms, although Polly Murray did work for the World Health Organization for a while, they were advocates. They were patient advocates because their families were getting sick and no one would listen. And they were like, someone's

• 19:45Speaker 03

  gotta do something. Something's going on here and these doctors are not being any help.

• 19:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 19:51Speaker 03

  And it was a big deal. Polly Murray ended up writing a book. She made it sort of her life's work, uh, in 1996, a book called The Widening Circle. And, uh, because of, uh, sort of the persistent sexism in science, they were largely discounted, even though they had a list of 37 individuals. They researched on their own, contacted scientists.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  Uh, I just, we just really need to shout them out. Polly Murray died, um, just about a month ago, uh, at the age of 85.

• 20:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, is that right?

• 20:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she was a persistent cuss, as they call them up in the Yankee states.

• 20:23Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 20:24Josh Clark?

  So, um, On the one hand, yes, from the everything I've read and all the impressions I have, they were very much dismissed and it was very much sexist. And also, I think, because they weren't doctors. But on the other hand, the doctors who were being presented with these cases were like, I have no idea what this is, so let's just pretend it's not real. But luckily, those two women in the groups that they established, they went on and they contacted Yale Medical School, they contacted the state, and they really kind of put this on the map. They said, there is a mysterious epidemic that's going on, where you have a lot of kids who suddenly have juvenile arthritis out of nowhere. What are you guys gonna do about it?

• 21:05Josh Clark?

  And because of their agitation, this mystery made its way to the desk, or I guess the microscope, of a guy named Willie Bergdorfer. And he was, at the time, the world's foremost authority on what's called Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, which is another tick-borne bacterial infection.

• 21:26Speaker 03

  I remember that when I was a kid. That was a big news item.

• 21:29Josh Clark?

  It was.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  A scary one.

• 21:30Josh Clark?

  He was working out in Colorado, and Colorado was ground zero for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever for a while. Which is, yeah, you do not want to have that. It's a really bad bacterial infection. But by this time, they had done, thanks to the legwork done by the moms and the patient advocate groups in Lyme, Connecticut, it had been pretty well established that the common thread between all these people, besides where they lived, and by the way, it was Chuck Lime, Old Lime, and East Hattam. Sorry, East Hattam. Aside from the fact that they all lived in the same region, was that all of them, or almost all of them, were called being bitten by a tick. And a lot of them had a mysterious rash right before the symptoms presented.

• 22:14Josh Clark?

  So it came to this guy, Willie Bergdorfer's microscope, because they had said, there's something in the ticks here that is creating this disease that we haven't encountered before.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  That's right. And he had already discovered this bacterium called, how do you pronounce that? Spirachet?

• 22:35Josh Clark?

  Spirakeet.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  Spirakeet.

• 22:37Josh Clark?

  But a spirakeet is a type of bacteria, and that's what...

• 22:40Speaker 03

  Spirachet?

• 22:41Josh Clark?

  That's what...

• 22:42Speaker 03

  Give me the apron.

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  There you go.

• 22:45Speaker 03

  All right.

• 22:46Josh Clark?

  Spirochet. You just made me think of the older brother Chet in Weird Science.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Now go make yourself one, butt wad.

• 22:55Josh Clark?

  Man, that guy had some good quotes.

• 22:56Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. R.I.P.

• 22:58Josh Clark?

  What, what?

• 22:59Speaker 03

  Bill Paxton?

• 23:00Josh Clark?

  When?

• 23:01Speaker 03

  Oh, he died a couple of years ago. Very sad.

• 23:04Josh Clark?

  Are you sure?

• 23:05Speaker 03

  I'm positive.

• 23:06Josh Clark?

  You're thinking of Bill Pullman.

• 23:08Speaker 03

  No, Bill Paxton died. It was so sad because I had just listened to his Marc Maron interview and he was like, "After that episode, I'd wanted nothing more than to be Bill Paxton's friend and neighbor."

• 23:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, neat.

• 23:19Speaker 03

  He just sounded like the best guy and best family man and he passed away way too early.

• 23:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, really. I did not know about that. I saw Frailty not too many weeks ago. It's still pretty good.

• 23:30Speaker 03

  Was it the first viewing or?

• 23:31Josh Clark?

  No, no, no. I'd seen it before, but, you know.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, man, great movie.

• 23:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but he wrote and I believe directed and starred in it.

• 23:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was so good. I know, love a good Powers Booth casting call.

• 23:42Josh Clark?

  For sure. It was unusual and surprising, but it was perfect.

• 23:46Speaker 03

  Very good, underrated film. Where are we?

• 23:49Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. We were talking about Rocky Mountain, Spotted Fever, Willie Bergdorfer identifying the Spirokeet that was causing Lyme disease.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:59Josh Clark?

  Spirochet.

• 24:01Speaker 03

  What a dum-dum.

• 24:02Josh Clark?

  No, no. Remember we established we're all smart.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  He, yeah, so he discovered this, this parakeet.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  And he was honored by this discovery and naming that thing after himself. That's why it has that interesting name.

• 24:20Josh Clark?

  I get the impression he didn't name it after himself. They named it after him.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  No, so said they honored him.

• 24:24Josh Clark?

  Oh, no, no, go on.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  Okay. But there's a big difference between him saying, "This thing's called the Bergdorferi bacteria," and somebody saying, "We're gonna name this after you."

• 24:34Speaker 03

  No, I totally agree.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  Okay. So Bergdorferi, or Bergdorfer.

• 24:41Josh Clark?

  He figures out what is the basis of Lyme disease, which is great. That's an enormous breakthrough. It establishes that, yes, it is its own thing. It's its own disease. And because it was a bacteria, it's Aspergia, which again, it's a kind of a snake-like shaped bacteria, specific kind that walks like a slinky. Because it was a bacterial infection, the medical establishment said, oh, we got this here. Take some antibiotics. And over, you know, the course of several years, starting in, I think the 90s is when they really started to say, okay, we can cure Lyme disease, especially if we catch it early on, by a two to four week round of antibiotics.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:23Josh Clark?

  Here you go. And they said, case closed. We're the medical establishment. Let's go have a party for ourselves.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, and here's the thing, like, many times, that can take care of the problem. So it's not like they were just lazy and not doing their work. But I think they closed the book a little too soon, and a lot of people do. Because that oral, that round of oral antibiotics, if you catch it early, it can really work. But, and I think they say, what, like nine times out of 10, if you catch it early, then that will, that will work.

• 25:56Josh Clark?

  Right, they're so, they're so persistent with that assertion that if you find a tick on yourself and you live in an area where Lyme disease is known to thrive, if you can't say how long that tick's been on you, they're probably just going to give you that round of antibiotics prophylactically.

• 26:14Speaker 03

  I wondered about that.

• 26:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And, and, and again, like you said, in a lot of cases, and I believe from what I've read, the vast majority of cases, in early-stage Lyme disease, that round of antibiotics should work.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, and they say that if you, and this is from the American Lyme Disease Foundation, quote, "If you live in endemic area, have symptoms consistent with early Lyme disease and suspect recent exposure to a tick, present your suspicion to your doctor so that he or she may make a more informed diagnosis."

• 26:46Josh Clark?

  Right, show up to your doctor and say, "Madam, sir, I would love to present my suspicions to you. Please sit down."

• 26:53Speaker 03

  Well, they're saying, sort of, still, you still sort of need to be your own advocate. Because it is so hard to diagnose still. Because if you're going on symptoms alone, like we said, there are hundreds of things that share those symptoms. And Lyme disease may not be the first thing they think of.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  That's a huge problem with Lyme disease. Another huge problem is that the test we use to test for Lyme disease doesn't actually test for the B. burgdorferi bacteria.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 27:20Josh Clark?

  It tests for the antibodies that should be present in your bloodstream if you have a bacterial infection. Not even specific to that one, but a bacterial infection. The problem is it takes days, if not maybe a week or two, before your body mounts an effective immune response against this infection. So if you find a tick and they give you a test, say, within the first couple of days, it's going to come back negative, even though you very much have a burgdorferi infection. It's going to come back negative because the antibodies haven't been created yet. The other part of the problem is, even if you take a blood test that tests directly for the burgdorferi bacterium, it moves out of the bloodstream really easily and within

• 28:05Josh Clark?

  several days. There's a very brief window of time where you can directly test for the burgdorferi bacteria and find it in a simple blood test.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can also get false positives. And they're advocating now for two-tiered testing for confirmation of the diagnosis. So if you get that first positive test, sometimes now you'll get a different test, a Western blot test.

• 28:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  That's going to really get more specific to that antibody, not just the general antibodies.

• 28:35Josh Clark?

  Right, so part of the other problem is that a lot, the reason a lot of patient activists and patient advocate groups say, "No, doctors, you're wrong. Like, this is not good enough," is that there's a sneaking suspicion among people who have what's called chronic Lyme or post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome.

• 28:56Josh Clark?

  Is that the round of antibiotics, the two to four week round of antibiotics that seemingly cured the Lyme disease symptoms that you had, actually failed to fully knock out the bacteria that created this infection, this created this Lyme disease in the first place, that it just burrowed further into your body. And because the medical establishment said, "We got it, it's fine, these antibiotics cured it," and didn't go deeper, that bacterial infection is allowed to fester and then present in worse ways later.

• 29:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's a really big deal because, you know, what will happen is, they'll say, "You're cured, we gave these antibiotics, they worked." But weeks and months and even years later, when people have persistent fatigue and muscle aches and headaches and, you know, like your knee joints hurt, they said like a brain fog can happen. And these are all things that are, I don't want to say generic, but if you walk into your doctor and say, "I feel like I'm fuzzy and have a brain fog and I get headaches and I'm tired," it's sort of a wide, it's hard to pinpoint what's going on.

• 30:06Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  And they think you're cured of the Lyme disease. So that's where some of the more dismissive, at least from the Lyme disease community, they're saying like, "I have this chronic issue." And they're saying, "But no, there's no such thing as a chronic issue."

• 30:21Josh Clark?

  Right. Well, they're also saying like, "Look, we gave you a test for Lyme disease and you came back negative, you know? We know you had it before, we tested you, we came back positive, we treated it with antibiotics, now we've tested you again and it's coming back negative, you don't have Lyme disease anymore." So there's a huge debate whether the antibiotic course is not enough and that the Lyme disease is persisting elsewhere in the body, and that maybe it's changed its form so that it won't show up on the tests like it should, or there's remnants of it. I saw one article that suggested that...

• 30:58Josh Clark?

  The cell wall from the spirochete, the Bergdorffary spirochete,

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:02Josh Clark?

  can remain even after the thing's dead.

• 31:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  And persist in like joint tissue and cause an immune response there, which would explain this long-term arthritis as like a post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome symptom. Or is it that it converts into an entirely different disease, like an autoimmune disorder?

• 31:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, some people think that it could trigger an autoimmune response. And the infection's gone. And this is what's happening later on is you have this autoimmune response. It can lead to other things like rheumatic heart disease. I think we, did we cover Guillain-Barre syndrome? Or just talk about it in different episodes?

• 31:44Josh Clark?

  We've talked about it and I think if I remember correctly, it's Guillain-Barre.

• 31:48Speaker 03

  Guillain-Barre. Give me the apron.

• 31:50Josh Clark?

  I'm pretty sure, yeah. We could both be wearing the apron for this one, though.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Well, we'll split it up. I get the lower half.

• 31:56Josh Clark?

  All right.

• 31:58Josh Clark?

  I get the top half. I'm Porky Pigging it.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  All right, I'm gonna just cover my bits down there.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  But regardless of what's happening, what people know is that they don't feel right. And it's extremely frustrating

• 32:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 03

  to feel these symptoms months and years later

• 32:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  and not be taken seriously in a doctor's office.

• 32:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so a lot of people are saying that we, this course of antibiotics shouldn't be two to four weeks. It should be many months.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:24Josh Clark?

  Because you really need to get all of the spirochete out of there or else it's going to persist and you're gonna have big problems. And then the medical establishment is saying like, this, what you're talking about doesn't even exist. So there's a lot of frustration, like you're saying, a big disconnect. And this is something that is probably going to keep playing out, although it seems like it may be on its way out because of the epidemic proportions Lyme is taking now in the United States.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, the statistics are mounting up such that it can't be ignored any longer. Not that it was ignored, but you know, that's probably a harsh statement. But it's being taken way more seriously now.

• 33:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so something like, there's an expectation that there's going to be something like 300,000 to 400,000 new cases of Lyme disease in the United States alone.

• 33:11Josh Clark?

  And that 10 to 20% of those patients will end up with chronic Lyme disease.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I spend a fair amount of time hiking around the woods with my dogs and have pulled plenty of ticks off of them and plenty of ticks off of myself. And I have fatigue a lot because I have a four-year-old and every now and then I'm like, do I have Lyme disease?

• 33:35Josh Clark?

  Well, probably not, and here's why.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  Well, I've never had the bullseye, first of all.

• 33:38Josh Clark?

  Okay, that's a big one, but also the ticks you pull off of your dog, those are dog ticks. They do not transmit Lyme. It's specifically the long-legged or black-legged tick, which is a type of deer tick.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Well, but here's the thing, there are plenty of deer ticks in the woods. Are you saying that they, if they would not latch on to a dog and they'd be like, ooh, no?

• 33:59Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  Because there's deer ticks all over the woods.

• 34:03Josh Clark?

  Sure, there definitely are. I don't know if deer ticks will latch on to a dog. It's entirely possible they won't, since there's such a differentiation between dog ticks and deer ticks. But I do know that dog ticks don't transmit Lyme.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Well, I think we should talk about my favorite thing from the ticks episode, and this is one I will lay on people from time to time, is remember how ticks attach themselves?

• 34:26Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 34:27Speaker 03

  They just hang out on blades of grass and things and just snap their little claws constantly, just waiting for something to pass by.

• 34:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they sense CO2. Right. They sense the CO2 of the mammal that's walking past.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  So interesting.

• 34:42Josh Clark?

  And Chuck, one thing I read is that somehow the Lyme, Lyme-infected ticks, because they're infected themselves. Lyme resides in like small mammals and rodents as a reservoir.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:55Josh Clark?

  They're infected, but they don't have symptoms. Ticks get infected with this stuff and they're just passing it along. It's not like they're the ultimate source of Lyme disease.

• 35:05Speaker 03

  No, ticks are misunderstood. They're really great.

• 35:07Josh Clark?

  Right. But from what I saw, the ticks that are infected with the Lyme bacteria are actually better at finding hosts than non-infected ticks. Like it somehow enables them to be better parasites.

• 35:22Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 35:22Josh Clark?

  Interesting.

• 35:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, that sounds familiar. Did we? Cover that, or do I just know that? Because I'm smart.

• 35:27Josh Clark?

  I don't. I don't remember. But I do, I remember you talking about in the Ticks episode about how they wave their arms in the air when somebody passed by. And I remember one of our listeners made some art of that. We gotta find it.

• 35:41Speaker 03

  That's right. And from snapping their little fingers on a blade of grass, to my dog's butt, to my scrotum, it's quite a, it's quite a ride.

• 35:50Josh Clark?

  It's a wild ride.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  And then to Emily eventually plucking that thing out for me.

• 35:54Josh Clark?

  That's nice.

• 35:55Speaker 03

  Kinda, that's what marriage is all about, folks.

• 35:57Josh Clark?

  Yep. You just have your forearm thrust across your eyes. You're like, get it out, get it out.

• 36:03Speaker 03

  Uh, so let's take another break.

• 36:05Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 36:06Speaker 03

  And we'll talk a little bit about prevention and then a little bit about some very recent, interesting, uh, wacky things going on in Congress about Lyme disease as a bioweapon.

• 36:18Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 36:37Josh Clark?

  You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next unless something starts to feel off. Because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.

• 36:53Speaker 04

  That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction, signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system, a constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance and why they seem to be on the rise, to how digestion changes as we age, and what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.

• 37:21Josh Clark?

  Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect, and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 37:43Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 37:46Speaker 04

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 38:02Speaker 05

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 38:10Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 38:16Speaker 06

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 38:22Speaker 04

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 38:25Speaker 06

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 38:29Speaker 05

  What the fans experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 38:33Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

• 38:37Speaker 07

  Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 38:52Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, you talked about prevention. How do you keep from having to have a tick pulled from your crotch?

• 38:57Speaker 03

  Don't ever go into Mother Nature. Just stay in your mid-century modern home with tiled floors and don't go into the woods.

• 39:06Josh Clark?

  Sounds delicious.

• 39:08Speaker 03

  No, I love the woods. You love the woods, right?

• 39:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  Yeah?

• 39:12Josh Clark?

  I love watching the woods on television.

• 39:14Speaker 03

  From your mid-century house?

• 39:15Josh Clark?

  No, I do. I love the woods myself.

• 39:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm just kidding. Get in the woods. But they recommend things like DEET. I don't use that stuff on my own body. But some people will say, "Put that all over your body and put it on your clothes and put it on your socks and shoes."

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  Just walk around spraying a cloud of it around you constantly while you're in the woods.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  What I do is I just check for ticks.

• 39:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, a good thing to do, seriously, it looks super dorky, but what do you care? Is to tuck your pant legs into your socks.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 39:48Josh Clark?

  And then when you come out, like, wear light colors too, because you can see the ticks a lot more easily. And then when you come out of the woods... Take your clothes off and take a shower as soon as you can and just inspect yourself. Inspect your groin, your armpits, your scalp. Part of the problem with Lyme disease though is remember you get it from tims. You get it from ticks in the nymph stage.

• 40:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:14Josh Clark?

  Which are really, really small. So you've got to check really, really well to see if you have that tick on you.

• 40:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, and just while you're at it, take off the adult ticks as well.

• 40:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  Don't leave them.

• 40:26Josh Clark?

  Just leave those on.

• 40:27Speaker 03

  And check your dogs, you know, you check your dogs under their haunches, like on the armpit of their legs, whatever that's called, their leg pits. Check behind their ears, check under their collars, because ticks are trying to, you know, they're not going to hang out just like on the top of their back. They may start there, but they're going to try and find a place that's dark and warm and out of, out of view.

• 40:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I don't mean to say you can't get Lyme disease from an adult, Chuck. It's just that the nymphs are far more likely to feed on a human than an adult is, but a Lyme infected adult tick will transmit.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 41:04Josh Clark?

  Lyme to you too, for sure.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  A very important distinction.

• 41:07Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  So now we move on to the US Congress. Very recently, about a month ago.

• 41:13Josh Clark?

  End of July, I think.

• 41:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, there was a US House Rep named Chris Smith, Republican out of New Jersey, who introduced legislation that said, hey, Department of Defense, you should review these claims that I'm seeing that our own Pentagon researched using ticks to spread Lyme disease as a bioweapon in the mid 20th century. I'm reading a lot about this in books and articles that we did research on Plum Island. And we, we, and other insects too, not just ticks, of turning them into bioweapons. And this thing passed. And a lot of this comes from a book. Written by Chris Newby called Bitten: The Secret History of Lyme Disease and Biological Weapons.

• 41:57Josh Clark?

  And this book, like, I think Chris Smith, the representative from New Jersey, said like, "This book really inspired me to take up this legislation." But in the book, Newby basically says, "The government at Fort Dietrich, Maryland, and on Plum Island, New York, before it was turned into an animal disease research center, were doing..."

• 42:18Speaker 03

  It was an insect disease research center before that, I guess.

• 42:21Josh Clark?

  Right. They were, they were looking into, well, they definitely were doing bio-warfare research there.

• 42:28Speaker 03

  Early, early 1950s?

• 42:30Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:30Josh Clark?

  But, and then Fort Dietrich, for however long, if they're not still doing it now. But the, they were apparently looking into ticks as delivery systems for biological weapons.

• 42:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:44Josh Clark?

  I couldn't find that that is actually verified, but I find that highly believable. But what Newby is saying is, they were doing that research, and then the way we got Lyme disease is whatever research they were coming up with escaped, say, a tick attached to a bird that flew off of Plum Island and landed in the area around Lyme, Connecticut, and these ticks got off and they started to breed and they, they became endemic in this area, and that's where Lyme disease came from. There was actually a biological weapon that was produced and then inadvertently, probably not purposefully, released into the larger population in the Northeast.

• 43:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, so here's my question. I haven't read the book, but are they saying that, that we created Lyme disease, or that we just weaponized it? Because those are two very different things.

• 43:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I don't know what she's saying either, and I think she stops short of saying that, but that it's implied that if you put two and two together, the government was looking into biological warfare and they were talking about, you know, using ticks at some point, and, you know, it's really close to this ground zero of where the tick epidemic began. You put two and two together. That's the impression I have is that she didn't actually come out and say it, but that she lets the reader surmise for themselves, which is the problem.

• 44:11Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, that's very easy to disprove if she's actually claiming that they created Lyme disease because we just got through saying it was in, who was the mummy?

• 44:23Josh Clark?

  Utsi.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  It was in Utsi, 5300 years ago.

• 44:27Josh Clark?

  Over in the Alps.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Uh, well, true, but it also in the United States. I mean, it came around in the, uh, we first discovered it in 1970s and like several different places. It wasn't just Lyme, Connecticut. They found it in California.

• 44:41Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  And you can't just, that just, it doesn't add up that it would be popping up in all these random places if it escaped from Long Island Sound in 1953.

• 44:50Josh Clark?

  Right. Which I think somebody who subscribed to this conspiracy theory, and it's very much what it is, is a conspiracy theory, that, um, well, then the release wasn't purpose or accidental, it was purposeful.

• 45:00Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 45:01Josh Clark?

  And that they spread it around the Northeast, California, and then Spooner, Wisconsin, which supposedly is the actual place where the first case of Lyme disease was described in the United States in 1969.

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:14Josh Clark?

  About six years before this cluster of juvenile arthritis cases popped up in Old Lime, Lyme, and East Hattam.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  Well, it's a very bad idea if that's what went on because you have to depend on a lot of things, which is, A, these ticks definitely finding their way to, uh, the enemy, uh, B, they attach to the enemy successfully and transmit the disease. And then what does it transmit? A very slow acting disease that will give people headaches and fatigue over the course of a long time.

• 45:49Josh Clark?

  Right. That also produces a one of a kind telltale rash.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:54Josh Clark?

  That tells you supposedly in plenty of time that you have this, um, this disease that needs to be treated with a simple course of oral antibiotics.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it has to be probably in the country. They're not, they don't thrive well in the city.

• 46:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 46:07Speaker 03

  So it's just, it doesn't make a good biological weapon.

• 46:10Josh Clark?

  No. And then again, people who subscribe to this conspiracy theory say, well, They can't all be winners, but maybe it was just something they were experimenting with and it wasn't very good.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  Trust me, I mean, we've done enough research on stuff our American government used to do and continue to do that. It's not the most outlandish thing in the world.

• 46:27Josh Clark?

  No, it's not. And that's also why Chris Smith, the representative from New Jersey, shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand because it's entirely plausible. It's, yeah, it's not just a complete wacko idea.

• 46:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 46:39Josh Clark?

  The other reason Chris Smith shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand is because he is a true Lyme warrior. He introduced other legislation called the TIC Act, and of course he had to make TIC an acronym. That, um, an acronym, not an anachronism.

• 46:55Speaker 03

  What's it stand for?

• 46:56Josh Clark?

  The TICS: Identify, Control, and Knockout Act. He was really grasping like a tick on a blade of grass with that one. But the, the point is.

• 47:07Speaker 03

  But knockout's not one word unless you use it as knockout.

• 47:10Josh Clark?

  Well, that's what he's saying, I guess.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  So it's really the TICOS Act?

• 47:14Josh Clark?

  Um, but it would create an additional $180 million in federal funding for Lyme disease research. Which is sorely needed right now.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  That's awesome. I didn't know he was such an advocate. That's good.

• 47:26Josh Clark?

  He really is. He hates Lyme disease like, like a lot.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  I was about to say something, but.

• 47:34Josh Clark?

  I wish I could take a pill that would bulk up my analogy region in my brain.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  Oh, your analogies are great.

• 47:40Josh Clark?

  What were you gonna say? I wanna know. We can beep it out if you need to.

• 47:44Speaker 03

  I was gonna get political. I was gonna say he hates ticks like he hates [bleep].

• 47:49Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 47:50Speaker 03

  Can we leave that and bleep it?

• 47:51Josh Clark?

  I don't know. We'll find out.

• 47:52Speaker 03

  All right.

• 47:53Josh Clark?

  So, um, the whole idea that it's a bioweapon, almost certainly not the case, right? But it makes for good press. I mean, like, if you look up, like, Lyme disease and bioweapon, there is a lot of recent articles written on it. Just because a member of Congress introduced this legislation.

• 48:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:10Josh Clark?

  What, a lot of people are, are saying is, look, it makes sense, like, this conspiracy theory that people would go to that. But on the same, at the same time. There's another really great explanation for it, and it's climate change. That this whole thing came about in the 70s because we're starting to see what was called the first epidemic from climate change. And there's this really great article on Aon, which is a great website, by Mary Beth Pfeiffer, spells it like Michelle Pfeiffer with a P, called Ticks Rising. And she's an investigative reporter, a science journalist, who really went to a lot of trouble

• 48:53Josh Clark?

  to explain how climate change has created a new world for ticks, and we are now living in it.

• 49:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, in 2014, the EPA actually started to use four new indicators about what's going on with climate change and the impact, and one of them was the spread of Lyme disease.

• 49:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  So, like, the EPA officially uses that as a factor and an indicator in determining the impact of climate change now.

• 49:21Josh Clark?

  Right. And so, the whole, the whole basis of this idea is that because of warmer weather, ticks are being killed off in far fewer numbers from, over the winter. So, they're surviving longer. They're, as it gets warmer and warmer, higher and higher up, their range is spreading rather rapidly.

• 49:39Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:40Josh Clark?

  And wherever these ticks go, Lyme disease is game to go with them. So, the spread of Lyme disease is, is increasing as the spread of ticks is increasing too. And ticks have gotten totally out of hand in some areas. In that same Aon article, Mary Beth Pfeiffer was talking about how moose are dying, in their thousands, in like, Wisconsin and the Dakotas, because they're being bled to death by 100,000 ticks at once.

• 50:10Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 50:11Josh Clark?

  That never happened before. And now, all of a sudden, it's kind of becoming routine because the ticks aren't dying off in the winter like they're supposed to. And again, it's because of climate change. And then, in the Northeast, Chuck. One of the reasons why there's been this explosion of ticks is because there's been an explosion of deer to support the tick population.

• 50:30Speaker 03

  Sure, back in the day, there were things like mountain lions and there were predators that would help control the deer population.

• 50:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, wolves.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  Wolves, they're even suggesting reintroducing wolves to help control the deer population.

• 50:43Josh Clark?

  Oh yeah, you can bet that's gonna happen. No, really.

• 50:47Speaker 03

  No, I mean, do you think so?

• 50:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, totally. Like, if 300,000 people a year are coming down with Lyme in the United States, they're gonna start reintroducing wolves to combat if it has even a half of a chance.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  I'd be interested to see if that happens.

• 51:01Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  Because humans are gonna wanna hunt those wolves.

• 51:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:05Speaker 03

  You know?

• 51:06Josh Clark?

  It just brings it out in us for some reason, huh?

• 51:09Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, they hunted the mountain lions.

• 51:12Josh Clark?

  Right, but I think that's the idea of, oh, wait a minute, really weird and circuitous bad things happen when we overhunt mountain lions and wolves. Maybe when we reintroduce them, we won't have to, you know, or we won't follow that impulse, we'll just let nature take its course.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 51:34Josh Clark?

  Who knows? You got anything else, man?

• 51:36Speaker 03

  I got nothing else.

• 51:39Josh Clark?

  So there's a solution, a round of antibiotics and some wolves, and that'll cure what ails us.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, advocate for yourself still, people.

• 51:47Josh Clark?

  Sure. And the wolves.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  Be persistent.

• 51:50Josh Clark?

  That's good advice for everything, Chuck.

• 51:53Speaker 03

  Agreed.

• 51:54Josh Clark?

  Almost everything. There's certainly cases where persistence is not a good idea, but you know what I'm saying, right?

• 52:00Speaker 03

  I do know.

• 52:01Josh Clark?

  Okay. If you want to know more about Lyme disease, go check out all of the articles there are to read, and again, go check out the Aon article by Mary Beth Pfeiffer, it's really interesting. And since I said it's interesting, that means it's time for listener mail.

• 52:19Speaker 03

  I'm gonna call this neat story about how great Stuff You Should Know listeners are.

• 52:23Josh Clark?

  Ooh, I like that.

• 52:24Speaker 03

  From Portland, Maine. Hey, guys. My wife, daughter, and I, all Stuff You Should Know listeners for years, decided last minute to buy tickets to the show while on vacation at Old Orchard Beach, Maine, just a short drive south of Portland. We had nosebleed seats, naturally, because we waited until just an hour before showtime. And that was more than cool by us, and we were totally stoked just to be there, whatever the seats. When we got to our balcony seats, a friendly fellow named Matt approached us, said he had three tickets for orchestra seats, and asked if we'd like them. The tickets were intended for friends of his who were stuck in Labor Day weekend traffic, couldn't make it to the show. Turns out, he'd been scouting the crowd for 40 minutes, looking for a group of three, even enlisting the help of the ushers to find three people together. And

• 53:08Speaker 03

  we were the first group that he saw. Brief walk downstairs, and there we were, three rows from the stage for the supremely excellent show about podcast topic redacted. Thanks to Matt and his friends being stuck in traffic, we went from not having tickets an hour before showtime to having third row 10 minutes before you guys took stage. We considered it a little piece of true magic. So while I'm confident this lengthy setup in telling you the story is way too long for the air.

• 53:37Josh Clark?

  No.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  Not true, Richard Clark. The whole family would be forever grateful if you could give Matt and the Connecticut groundskeeper a huge thank you from Rich, Susan, and Emily in upstate New York for sharing those seats with us.

• 53:49Josh Clark?

  That is fantastic. I love our shows, man.

• 53:51Speaker 03

  It's great. People are so kind. And that is from Richard Clark. Not Dick Clark, but Rich Clark.

• 53:57Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's even better.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:59Josh Clark?

  Dick Clark's taken.

• 54:01Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 54:01Josh Clark?

  And good for Rich Clark for recognizing that, too.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:05Josh Clark?

  Thanks for coming to the show, Rich, and bringing in the family. And thank you, Matt, for being such a cool dude. That was very nice of you. I'm utterly unsurprised because our fans are pretty great people.

• 54:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:16Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, if you want to get in touch with us, you can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com and you can send us a tweet, or an Insta post, or a comment, or what have you, that kind of thing, because all of our social links are there. Or you can just do it the old fashioned way and send an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to [email protected].

• 54:41Speaker 08

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 54:57Josh Clark?

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• 55:39Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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