Selects: The Collar Bomb Heist

The collar bomb heist is the crime caper that keeps on giving. Every time the story seemed like it was figured out, another layer appeared. Tune in to this classic episode to hear Josh and Chuck detail this very odd and twisty story. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:01Speaker 02

  Hi, everybody. Chuck here, curating a specially handpicked selected episode. And this one's from May 2018. And boy, oh, boy, this is a good one. I forgot all about this and this is part of our true crime series. Not so grisly as far as like, you know, it's not about an ax murder or anything like that. It's about a heist and I love me some heist. And this is called the color bomb heist.

• 1:32Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:41Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Jerry's over there. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the true crime edition again.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've done a few of these, right?

• 1:53Josh Clark?

  True crime is so hot right now.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Hey, man, we were, we were dabbling on the periphery of true crime when most of these people were wetting their diapers.

• 2:04Josh Clark?

  That's right, man. That is right. I'm glad somebody finally said it.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  We were occasionally doing a poor job of covering true crime 10 years ago.

• 2:14Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm. That's right. And we're gonna do it again.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  That's right. We continue that great, rich history.

• 2:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because true crime can be extraordinarily interesting, especially when you're talking about an extraordinarily overcomplicated heist that results in a man's bizarre death, death by bizarre means, and involves what really ultimately you could make a case is an unsolved mystery still today, even though it's technically, bureaucratically been solved. A lot of people say, no, this thing hasn't been solved yet.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  You, you got, you got homemade bombs. You got a scavenger hunt. You got a crack dealer.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  Sure, well, you gotta have a crack dealer.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  You got prostitutes. You got pizza.

• 3:05Josh Clark?

  And, yeah, and let's start with the pizza.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  You got a Geo Metro.

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Which, by the way, I just wanted to point out ahead of time, there is no more pizza delivery car 2003 than a Geo Metro.

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  A teal one, no less.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, the thing is, it's almost like they rolled them right off the line in 2003, straight to a pizza place.

• 3:28Josh Clark?

  With the pizza guy inside already.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the little sign magneted on top.

• 3:32Josh Clark?

  Right, a little crooked.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:35Josh Clark?

  So, the whole thing does start, actually, with a pizza guy, a pizza place and a teal Geo Metro. And like you said, the whole thing starts in 2003 in Erie, Pennsylvania. And there was a, and still is, I looked it up, there's a pizza place called Mama Mia's Pizzeria.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Little woman knows, but fine.

• 3:58Josh Clark?

  Sure, it gets the job done, right?

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:01Josh Clark?

  And at about 2:00 PM on August 28th, 2003, a pizza delivery guy named Brian Wells, I think he was 46 at the time. He was about to end his morning shift when a call came in for two small sausage and pepperoni pizzas. And the, the, uh, delivery was, I guess, the opposite way of where Brian Wells was gonna go on his way home. But he said, you know what? I'll take this one last order. And he walked out the door at about 2:00. And the next time that Brian Wells was seen in public again, he was entering a PNC bank branch just down the street from his, uh, pizza place, a few miles up the road.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:45Josh Clark?

  And he looked a lot different than he did when he left the, the pizza parlor about 28 minutes earlier.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so first of all, he was, he was walking with a cane, kind of a funny looking cane.

• 4:58Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Uh, and then, under his t-shirt, he had clearly, and if you've seen the footage and the photos, you can see, uh, warning, by the way, for video.

• 5:11Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  For the future, it's quite graphic.

• 5:14Josh Clark?

  It's out there.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  But it is out there. Uh, but he had clearly some large, boxy looking thing. It looked like he was wearing a shoebox around his neck with a t-shirt pulled over it.

• 5:26Josh Clark?

  Kind of, but in the teller at the bank's defense, could have been an artificial torso and she probably didn't want to draw attention to it.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  She, yes, she was being very kind.

• 5:36Josh Clark?

  Right. So one thing I want to point out too, there's already discrepancy. What we're like, a minute into the story and there's already a discrepancy. That shirt he was wearing over that boxy thing underneath his shirt. Said Guess on it. And I've seen that it was written somehow, like in spray paint or marker, or that it was an actual Guess jeans T-shirt.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Oh, really? So either an officially licensed, or not licensed, but whatever, brand shirt?

• 6:02Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Or a homemade, janky, spray painted version?

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and if you look, the pictures don't really show one way or another.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I couldn't tell.

• 6:11Josh Clark?

  It looks more like it's homemade. And I looked up to see if there was a Guess shirt that it, you know, if I could find the actual Guess shirt it was and couldn't. So I think it may have been homemade.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  Regardless, he's wearing this shirt that says Guess on it. And he walks up to the teller and he hands the teller a note. And the note says, I have a bomb. Get everybody who has access codes to the safe together and put $250,000 into a bag and bring it to me. I think he said, you have 15 minutes to do this.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, which kind of a long time if you're a bank robber.

• 6:47Josh Clark?

  It is. It's like, almost like luxurious amount of time.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  I would've said like 60 seconds.

• 6:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or this should have happened yesterday, chop, chop.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:56Josh Clark?

  So he, um, he stands back and waits, apparently grabs a dum-dum lollipop out of the little basket while he's waiting.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Because why not?

• 7:06Josh Clark?

  And the teller says, sir, um, we don't have, like, we can't get into the safe. That's just not how things work. I'm sorry. But as a consolation prize, I'm going to put $8,702 into a bag for you right here and send you on your way, okay?

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and importantly, we did not mention, he lifted his shirt up and showed this teller.

• 7:24Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Uh, this, this bomb, this, what's called a collar bomb, strapped around his neck.

• 7:31Josh Clark?

  Right. So he walks out of the bank, a free man. And the next time that he's seen in public is about 15 minutes later. And he's seen in public by some Pennsylvania state troopers who are on the lookout for this guy. And he's still wearing that shirt. He's still got the big bulge. And he's standing around his Geo Metro parked in a parking lot that is actually shared with that PNC bank and a McDonald's. And he's in a parking lot right there. So basically, he left the bank robbery and went about 100 to 200 feet away from it. And that's where he was found, like, a full 15 minutes later.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, so these, these, these COOPAs, these troopers come over.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  And he says, hey, guys, this is a bomb around my neck. A group of, a group of black men chained this bomb around my neck at gunpoint, forced me to rob this bank for them. I'm not gonna, I'm not lying here. This thing is gonna go off. So the cops called the bomb squad and they do. I saw, you know, his, the family of Wells is still angry about the fact that she says they did nothing to save them, but.

• 8:43Josh Clark?

  I would be too.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  By the way, we should shout out Wired Magazine.

• 8:48Josh Clark?

  Oh, yes, we really, really should.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  A lot of this came from a great, heavily researched story by Rich Shapiro from about eight years ago called The Incredible True Story of the Color Bomb Heist. So, thank you, Rich, for your work. But the dude's on the ground. He said, I mean, if you, I kind of remember this happening because when I went and looked at the still images, I was like, wait a minute, I've, I've seen this footage.

• 9:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  And this is guy sitting on the ground with this thing around his neck, kind of just waiting, seated on the pavement for about 25 minutes. He says, very interestingly, like, did you call my boss at the pizza place? And then all of a sudden, this bomb starts beeping fast, which is never a good sign. And when I was reading the story, I thought, well, that's just a ruse. But no, this thing detonated and killed him. It blasted a hole in his chest. It did not blow his head off like the internet says.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  No.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  But it was a violent, awful death.

• 9:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was. And it was pretty quick. And then three minutes after the bomb goes off, the bomb squad showed up. So they, so he's dead. This kid, this guy, Brian Wells, is dead. And the whole time he was protesting, he's like, you know, this is, I was forced to rob the bank. Are you guys gonna get this off of me or what? Yeah, he said something like, did you call my boss? Because apparently he was a very loyal employee. He'd been working at Mamma Mia's for how long? Like 10 years or something like that? For years and years. And he'd only called in late once, not even sick, late once when his cat died, said Rich Shapiro in that Wired article. So.

• 10:34Josh Clark?

  It seemed like he actually was telling the truth, that he had been abducted and forced to rob the bank and then had been a victim. I think the bomb going off really kind of put an exclamation point on his story that he was not a willing participant in this, right?

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the cops obviously check out that Geo Metro and it's sweet, sweet styling and they saw his cane in there. Turns out the reason why the cane was funny looking is because it was also a gun.

• 11:05Josh Clark?

  And it really looks a lot like a gun.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, when you look at it. The bomb was clearly homemade. It had a couple of different parts to it. It was this banded metal collar that he wore around his neck. It was like locked to his neck, had four keyholes and then a combination lock.

• 11:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was really locked to his neck.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  And then an iron box with two pipe bombs loaded up, ready to go. And then, interestingly, and this will figure, put a pin in this one, because this will figure in the case later, it had two kitchen timers in there in addition to an electronic countdown timer.

• 11:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which was, I guess, the thing that started beeping faster and faster.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then some decoy wires. You always gotta have those if you're making a bomb.

• 11:52Josh Clark?

  Sure, but I mean, like, that's pretty smart. So there's decoy wires, there were apparently also stickers that said like, "Don't do it," or, you know, "Skull and crossbones," or "Rat poison," whatever.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  Skinny and sweet.

• 12:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And, oh, that's a good nine to five reference, man.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  I just saw that the other night.

• 12:08Josh Clark?

  So it was a homemade bomb, but it was, by all accounts, a well-made bomb, too. And it worked, which I think is one of the big questions about any homemade bomb is whether it will actually work or not. And this one worked with deadly effect.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  That's right. So the most important thing they found in this car, though, were some letters, some handwritten notes addressed to bomb hostage. So one of them said, I mean, these were instructions, basically, on what this guy should do, which further kind of cemented like, hey, this guy's probably telling the truth. It said, "Go rob this bank of 250 grand," and then- Very strangely outlined this little scavenger hunt, basically, to where eventually you will land upon the keys and combination to get you out of this thing by going all over town and finding these various hidden notes. And at the last note, you will, you will be able to free yourself.

• 13:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the last one will give you the keys and the combination. But you better hurry because you have a limited amount of time. If you stop and think, you're going to waste time and you're going to die. We can detonate this remotely and we're going to be following you. It was written pretty crazily. Have you read any of the note?

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so like there it's, it's got a lot of, um, like just like a lot of jumps, jump cuts or jump scares in it, you know? Like you'll, it's like, go do this and then go do that after that. And then don't try anything funny or we're going to blow you up, you know?

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:43Josh Clark?

  It has those every once in a while. And there's drawings in there of where he could find like, like the notes and all that. So that he made it as far as the first note, which was McDonald's. It was in that, that McDonald's that shared a parking lot with the PNC bank. That was where the first note was. So he, he made it to that, that McDonald's, grabbed that note. And that note was directing him out of town to another note. And he didn't make it that far, but when the cops caught up with him.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the scavenger hunt was, like you said, he, he had gotten just to the one place. So the cops then say, well, here's what we're going to do. We're going to complete this scavenger hunt.

• 14:23Josh Clark?

  They, they were like, whoa, you just blew my mind. That's some great policing.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 14:29Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  All right. Scavenger hunt is just started by the Koopas. We'll be right back.

• 14:49Speaker 02

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• 16:47Josh Clark?

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• 17:41Josh Clark?

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• 18:00Speaker 02

  All right, we're back.

• 18:02Josh Clark?

  So the scavenger hunt's still on, Chuck.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 18:05Josh Clark?

  They make it, the cops follow from the note that Brian Wells had to the next clue, and they found the next note, and that directed them to another place, even further out of town, to where they found the jar where the note was supposed to be, but the note was gone.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they don't really know what that means. They didn't know if it was just something to keep them busy, preoccupied. They didn't know if the person who was designing the scavenger hunt got interrupted, or knew that the cops were around and they were doing it sort of in real time. But at any rate, unfortunately, the scavenger hunt just kind of fizzled out because that was kind of a cool part of the story.

• 18:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it really was. It was like, it's one of the things that makes this, it's just an incredibly bizarre crime.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:51Josh Clark?

  Why the scavenger hunt? It's going to keep coming up again and again, right?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:55Josh Clark?

  So when the true, when the scavenger hunt ran out, the trail actually went cold. The case started to get cold for a few months. The cops sniffed around Brian Wells, tried to figure out, you know, what, why him, what happened with him, and they went back to his place of employment, and they, they kind of checked out the kind of person he was, right?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they very smartly said, well, wait a minute, why don't we, why don't we check out what that last delivery was supposed to be? There may be a clue there. And it was an interesting place. It was at the, it was, you could only get there by dirt road, and it was right next to a TV transmission tower in a kind of a remote wooded area.

• 19:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  And cops combed the area, found shoe prints that matched Wells. They found those classic iconic Geo Metro tire tracks that everyone recognizes by, by sight. But there really weren't any more clues as far as the cops were concerned at that location. So where the cops had found a dead end, a reporter and photographer for the Eerie Times News went and did a little investigation of his own and saw this house, you know, next door where the pizza was delivered and said, well, you know, I'm just gonna go knock on the door. This guy answers the door and his name was Bill Rothstein and he actually said, you know, you can look around if you want. He's 59 years old. He's a handyman, wasn't married,

• 20:21Speaker 02

  had lived there his whole life. And apparently, he seemed really smart, had a very articulate way of speaking and apparently was fluent in several different languages. And the journalist kind of did a little poking around and didn't really see much and took off. But he made contact with Bill Rothstein. He's the first person that kind of was, went to knocking.

• 20:45Josh Clark?

  Right. But nothing came of it. And the cops, as far as I know, never went and, and met with Bill Rothstein, even though his house was right next to the, the delivery place where Wells was supposedly accosted, right?

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:58Josh Clark?

  And then, like I said, the case has gone cold by this time. If a couple of months have gone by, the whole, the whole, I mean, you've got this crime, this very public caper that's captured the public's attention. A guy died by, by being blown up while, while under police supervision. And the, there's no leads, there's no nothing. And then finally, several weeks, a few months, I think, after the, the call, there's a 911 call from Bill Rothstein. And he tells the police that in his freezer, he has one of those serial killer chest freezers, there's actually a body, a man's body.

• 21:41Josh Clark?

  And that it was, um, it, it is not someone he murdered, but he helped cover up the murder of this man who was the boyfriend of Bill Rothstein's ex-girlfriend from way, way back in the day. And now the chain of events has been set off.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Right. And if you're like me and you start hearing wife of the ex-girlfriend's dad's cousin, your brain gets a little jumbled. So just very plainly, he used to date this woman. This woman called him up and said, hey, I've murdered my current boyfriend, or was it her husband?

• 22:19Josh Clark?

  Uh, it was her boyfriend. Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  And she said, and I need your help here. Um, I blasted him with a, with a shotgun. And I know we dated, oh, 20 years ago, but will, will you come help me out? Cause they were still in contact, I guess. They, they remained friends.

• 22:34Josh Clark?

  I guess so.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Uh, and this racked to Bill Rothstein, apparently he, he thought about committing suicide. Apparently there was even a note they found, suicide note. Uh, but he maintained, like you said with the cops, that he didn't have anything to do with anything, but most of the cleanup.

• 22:50Josh Clark?

  The cleanup, getting rid of the murder weapon and then holding on to the body.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. But what, which the reason he held on the body, he was supposed to get, apparently he's supposed to grind this body up. And that's where he finally stopped short and was like, Jesus, I can't do this.

• 23:04Josh Clark?

  And he said, he told the cops that the reason he called them finally was because since he wasn't going through with grinding up the body, he was worried what this woman, Marjorie Deal Armstrong was gonna do to him.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  He's like, I dated this lady.

• 23:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  She's not a nice person.

• 23:19Josh Clark?

  And so when he says Marjorie Deal Armstrong to the eerie cops, just alarm bells start going off. Because by this time already, Marjorie Deal Armstrong was a local legend as far as criminals are concerned. She was this very, very bright woman, um, who, uh, I think at the age of 35, back in the eighties, had been indicted for killing one of her boyfriends, shot him six times. She played that she had killed him in self-defense, that he was an abuser of her, and she was actually acquitted. A few years after that, she was married to a guy named Armstrong and he showed up at the hospital with a head trauma and actually died of a cerebral hemorrhage.

• 24:04Josh Clark?

  But there was no coroner's inquest or anything like that. And so it just was something suspicious, you know, the second significant other of this woman to die under suspicious or violent circumstances. So when Bill Rothstein said, I'm worried about what Marjorie Dale Armstrong is going to do to me, the cops seemed to have taken it very seriously.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Well, extremely seriously because the next day they arrested her.

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  That's pretty serious.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  For murder. And about a year and a half later, a little short of that, she pled guilty but mentally ill. She was sentenced to seven to 20. And then Rothstein, for his part, eventually died of cancer in 2004.

• 24:47Josh Clark?

  Right. And so you said that he had considered killing himself and even wrote a suicide note, right?

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:54Josh Clark?

  There's something very, very odd on Bill Rothstein's suicide note. And again, he didn't kill himself. He died of cancer, but he was able to actually show the cops where his suicide note was and they read it. And the first line of it, from what I understand, was this has nothing to do with the collar bomb heist or the Brian Wells murder.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a weird thing to put if you had nothing to do with that, you know?

• 25:21Josh Clark?

  Right. That's just a very odd thing to do.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  It's like when the cops come in and you go, there's nothing under the bed. There's no reason to look there.

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  Right. They said, we just want to make sure your fire alarm is working.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 25:34Josh Clark?

  Part of a community service.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  Cool, but the bed's fine.

• 25:36Josh Clark?

  Right. So that is a very weird thing to say and that definitely piqued the interest of the cops. But like you said, the cops convicted or the state convicted Marjorie Dale Armstrong of the murder of James Roden or Jim Roden, right?

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:54Josh Clark?

  She's already in prison. And when she's in prison, somehow, this is what I'm unclear on, somehow it comes up or she starts talking or something like that, that... Jim Roden's death very much had to do with the Wells case, with Brian Wells murder, this collar bomb heist. And that she knows a lot about it. And if they'll transfer her to a minimum security prison close to Erie, she'll, she'll start talking.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, she asked for the old Hannibal Lecter treatment.

• 26:27Josh Clark?

  So is that how it came up? Like she approached them? Cause I'm unclear on that.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  I mean, I think so. This is in the Wired article. It said that

• 26:38Speaker 02

  that there was a phone call from a state cop who had just met with her about something unrelated, like a different homicide. And she just, and, and it kind of makes sense though. Now, actually, when we, as we will learn,

• 26:53Speaker 02

  she talked a lot.

• 26:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, a lot.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  So it doesn't surprise me that another cop was just meeting with her about something unrelated. She's like, by the way, that whole collar bomb thing, I got all the skinny on that.

• 27:06Josh Clark?

  Right, so there's a couple of things going on here by then. By the time she calls the cops, the cops have already spoken, apparently with several informants that have shared cells with her or spent time with her in jail already, who are saying like, this lady is the mastermind of that collar bomb heist that's making you guys look bad.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and eventually, you know, when they met with her about this, she, she admitted that she was involved, but well, she didn't admit she was involved in the plot, but she said, I knew about it. I gave him, I gave him those two kitchen timers. And I was really close by when it happened.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  And by the way, the guy who blew up with the collar bomb, Mr. Wells, he was actually in on it too. And Rothstein headed the whole thing up.

• 27:56Josh Clark?

  Right, but, but for her deal Armstrong, she said, but I had nothing to do with it. Even though I had all these other little things to do with it. I never met Brian Wells. I didn't know Brian Wells. I had nothing to do with his death, aside from supplying the kitchen timers.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  And knowing all about it.

• 28:12Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So now it's just getting weird, right? Because there's the Jim Roden murder, who she says that she killed because he was abusing her, who Rothstein said she killed over a dispute with money. But is now she's saying is tied to the Wells case. And which she knows. A lot about, but really nothing about and had nothing to do with. So the cops are like, well, let's just get this lady to talk all we can. And one of the things they got out of her was her, she agreed to a tour around Erie, showing them all these places where she had been. And these were all places that were related to the crime. Like, I believe she said she'd been at the pizza delivery site.

• 28:58Josh Clark?

  I think she said she'd been within a mile of the, of the bank when it was robbed. Like, all of this stuff, she's just like, they just keep giving her this rope and she's just wrapping it around her neck again and again and again. And then finally, Chuck, at the end of this car ride, after she's been interviewing with the cops multiple times, giving them tons of info, what does she say?

• 29:21Speaker 02

  She asked for immunity at this point, after she had basically completely incriminated herself. And previous to all this, a lot more happened. There were four different informants who had come forward and said that this lady's been talking about this for a while. She very much had everything to do with it. And then, a couple of months after she had started talking to the feds, another big break came. This witness came forward and said, hey, there's this crack dealer named Kenny Barnes.

• 29:54Josh Clark?

  That is a crack dealer's name.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Kenneth Barnes. And he was involved. They used to go fishing together, Armstrong, Deal Armstrong and Barnes. And she sang like a canary to him, basically, and said, here's what she did. She, her brother-in-law put him in touch with Barnes while he was already in jail on unrelated charges, basically. And so Barnes was already in prison, said, hey, I think I can shorten my time. So I'm gonna try and get a reduced sentence at least by spilling the beans on Deal Armstrong.

• 30:27Josh Clark?

  Right. And Barnes's brother-in-law was who turned him into the cops.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:32Josh Clark?

  So Barnes is like, oh, I'm already, I'm in jail for selling crack. That's way different from being, you know, very much involved in this collar bomb heist. So he said, okay, I'll tell you guys everything you want to know. I'll be your star witness. Just reduce my sentence in this, for my involvement in this. And he started talking. When he started talking, it was at Marjorie Deal Armstrong's.

• 31:00Josh Clark?

  Trial, which was a pretty spectacular trial from all accounts.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And before the trial even, he told, his story was, is that she wanted me to kill her father. He was spending what would end up being her inheritance, she felt. And so she wanted him dead. And so she was doing this collar bomb heist to raise money to pay me to kill her dad.

• 31:26Josh Clark?

  Which, I mean, like, that's just the biggest facepalm I've ever heard of.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, for real.

• 31:33Josh Clark?

  So, okay, we'll start Marjorie Deal Armstrong's trial after we take a break. How about that, man?

• 31:39Speaker 02

  That sounds good.

• 31:40Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 31:55Speaker 02

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• 32:09Josh Clark?

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• 32:27Speaker 02

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• 32:37Speaker 02

  Hey, if you own a home, you already know that stuff breaks. It's not if, it's when. And somehow, it's always like the AC in July or the fridge right after a grocery run.

• 32:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's why you always hear people say they don't make appliances like they used to, because it's pretty much true.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's a good thing there's American Home Shield. With an AHS home warranty, they can help fix major home systems and appliance breakdowns, like your AC, plumbing, or fridge.

• 33:02Josh Clark?

  And if they can't repair your covered item, they'll replace it, no matter how old it is, which is huge, because fixing an AC- Can cost a lot. Like, hey, kids, our vacation is canceled a lot.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. Plus, as a benefit, you have the option to troubleshoot home issues over a live video call with vetted repair technicians at no extra cost.

• 33:20Josh Clark?

  Homeownership is already stressful enough. No need to upset your wallet, too.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  So check out American Home Shield now and get 20% off any plan at ahs.com/sysk and see promo details. See ahs.com/contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations, and exclusions.

• 33:40Josh Clark?

  American Home Shield. Don't worry. Be warranty.

• 33:49Josh Clark?

  World Mental Health Day takes place in October, and it's really meant to be more than just awareness. It's about actually taking the next step and getting support if you need it.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  But a lot of people still talk themselves out of therapy. They think it's too expensive. They're not sure if it'll actually work. They don't know how to find the right therapist, or they just get overwhelmed trying to navigate the whole system.

• 34:08Josh Clark?

  And that's exactly what Rula is built to fix. Rula makes therapy feel a lot more approachable, a lot more human. You can find a therapist who actually fits your needs, not just whoever's available. And with insurance, sessions average around $15 copay.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can sign up in just a few minutes. You can get matched with the right provider and even book something as soon as the next day.

• 34:27Josh Clark?

  And it's not just about starting. Rula helps you stay consistent and actually make progress because taking care of your mental health isn't a one-time thing. So if you've been thinking about therapy, don't talk yourself out of it. This is a really easy way to take that first step.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  So turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com, that is R-U-L-A dot com, to find a therapist the easy way.

• 35:06Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck. So before Marjorie Dale Armstrong goes to trial, remember, she's already in prison for the murder of Jim Roden, right? Shooting him in the back with a 12-gauge shotgun.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:16Josh Clark?

  Bill Rothstein is dead. I want to call him Ace Rothstein so bad. But Bill Rothstein is dead. He died of lymphoma a couple of years before. And by the time Marjorie DeAl Armstrong is brought to trial for her involvement as the mastermind of the collar bomb plot, they have to verify that she's actually mentally competent to stand trial. And that's kind of touchy because remember when she was charged with killing her boyfriend back in, I think, 1984 or 1986?

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  She was deemed incompetent seven times by psychiatrists before the judge finally said, I'm throwing all that out and deciding that she is competent. We're going to go ahead with the trial.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:09Josh Clark?

  They also found like 400 pounds of butter and 700 pounds of cheese in her house when they were investigating that particular murder.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  A little strange.

• 36:19Josh Clark?

  And in between 1984 and the time she was tried in the collar bomb heist, she had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So it was actually kind of questionable whether she was mentally competent to stand trial. And right as they were about to start the proceedings, I think the judge ruled that she was competent to stand trial, she was diagnosed with cancer herself.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 36:45Josh Clark?

  So they waited for the cancer diagnosis, her prognosis. And the cancer doctor came back and said, three to seven years. And the prosecutor said, giddy up.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  That's right. So previous to this, she had gotten the indictment. But in that indictment, it's very important that she was not, I mean, granted, she was the only one technically indicted. But in the indictment, it said that Rothstein was definitely a conspirator. And Wells, the man who was, who was the victim supposedly, he was definitely involved in this thing from the beginning.

• 37:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you're absolutely right. There's a very important thing that that showed up in this indictment.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, they said he agreed to rob this bank. He thought it was a fake bomb. And he was told this scavenger hunt was a ruse to fool the cops. And if and when he did get caught, he could say, you know, I was just following orders, basically what he did.

• 37:38Josh Clark?

  Right. And so Brian Wells' family did not like this at all. Apparently during the, the, the, um, the press conference where the DA of Erie County is announcing this, you know, this case, case is closed. This is the indictment that they have. Um, the Wells, some of Brian Wells' sisters were shouting liar at her. Uh, they did not take the idea that their brother was an accomplice in this at all. Um, very well.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of, uh, there was a lot of back and forth about whether Wells was in on the big, the thing from the beginning.

• 38:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Or whether or not he was in from the beginning and then at one point wanted out and was forced to do this, or whether he was forced from the beginning. Everyone's telling a different story. Uh, and you know, basically the trial is where we will learn, you know, if all that is true, what really happened.

• 38:30Josh Clark?

  So, um, Marjorie Dale Armstrong's lawyer said, you know, to heck with, with caution. Let's put you on the stand. Okay. You've already incriminated yourself multiple times. Why not do it in open court too? And, um, she apparently was quite a, uh, she put on quite a performance on the, on the stand over like two days. I think five and a half hours of testimony. Um, she yelled, she cried, she berated the prosecutor and her own lawyer. Uh, she, when she did mention Brian Wells, she said, I've never met the guy. I learned of his death when everybody else did on the, the TV news. And she, she stuck with her

• 39:13Josh Clark?

  story though, that she had nothing to do with this. She knew a little bit about it. She knew the, the, the conspirators. The real mastermind was Bill Rothstein and, uh, it wasn't her. That's what she maintained though throughout, um, the trial and even afterward.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  That's right, but before she took the stand, a few days earlier is when they trotted out Ken Barnes.

• 39:37Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  And he took the stand. And he said, he had, you know, by the time she took the stand, he had given a different account of the story than she would later do. So he got up there and said, she was behind all this. She was the mastermind. Rothstein was involved. She just recruited him, basically. She recruited Wells because Wells needed money. And here's where the prostitutes come into play. Apparently Wells had a relationship with a prostitute who was also a crack addict. So he would buy crack to give her, presumably as trade for sex. He ended up falling into debt with these crack dealers and needed money.

• 40:19Josh Clark?

  It's basically the plot of Moulin Rouge.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  And he contends, Barnes did, that, that up until the day of the crime, Wells was, thought this whole thing was fake, realized that it was a double cross, it was a real bomb, and he tried to run away and was tackled, and they put a gun to his head and locked him into this device.

• 40:44Josh Clark?

  So imagine this, Chuck. Imagine being Brian Wells, and you're agreeing to, to put on what you are presuming is a fake collar bomb, to go carry out a real bank robbery, because you need money, because you're indebted to crack dealers, because you borrowed from, crack from them to give to your girlfriend who's a prostitute, who you have to give crack to, to be with. And then you find out on the day of that this is a real bomb, and they're putting it on you whether you like it or not. What a horrible, what a horrible turn of events for this poor guy.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:22Josh Clark?

  I mean, it's just so sad, no matter how you slice it. And then if you take his family's, if you take his family's opinion, that he was 100% innocent, that he really was delivering pizzas and was accosted and, and had nothing to do with any of this, which I take with a, a pretty big grain of salt. I mean, that's just as bad. But it's bad either way, whether he was an accomplice at one point or not. It's, it's very, it's super sad. There's a very sad thread that's running through this story in the form of Brian Wells, you know?

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and on the final day of her trial, at the very, very end of her taking the stand, is when she finally said that she didn't know him, never met him.

• 42:01Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  And the first time she had ever laid eyes on him was on the news that day.

• 42:06Josh Clark?

  Right. Basically, he and Marjorie Deal Armstrong are fishing, right? They're fishing buddies. He's somebody that she would turn to. And she's finding out that her father is blowing through her inheritance. And she wants to put a stop to it. And so she approaches Barnes to get him to kill her father. But to get that 250K that he says he will kill her father for, she's got to rob a bank. So she turns to her friend, Bill Rothstein, to come up with this color bomb to put it on this other person, Brian Wells, who's going to carry this out. And oh, by the way, we're also going to come up with a scavenger hunt to either throw the cops off or to actually make Brian Wells feel more comfortable, give him some sort of cover in case he is caught.

• 42:50Josh Clark?

  And that's what we're gonna go with. Go team. And Marjorie Deal Armstrong said, that's preposterous. That wasn't me. Kenneth Barnes said, that's exactly what happened. And then Bill Rothstein wasn't alive to contradict any of it.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 43:05Josh Clark?

  So she's sentenced, right? She's convicted as the mastermind of this plot.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, the jury took about 11 hours. And she was convicted of armed bank robbery conspiracy and using a destructive device in a crime of violence.

• 43:22Josh Clark?

  That's a big one, I'll bet. I'll bet that carries a hefty sentence with it.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she would die in prison, just like her prognosis said. She didn't, I think she lasted a few years.

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  No, they gave her three to seven years, and she lasted seven.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so she finally passed away. And, you know, that's kind of the end of the story, even though there's a retired FBI investigator named Jim Fisher, who said, I think they got this all wrong. I think that Rothstein was the guy the whole time. And he makes a decently compelling case, but it's, you know, everyone's dead now.

• 43:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Jim Fisher's gone a little bit down the rabbit hole, if you ask me.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's kind of hard to tell with literally everyone having died. But for his money, he thinks it was Rothstein.

• 44:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and so there's probably not many people who are familiar with the case who would say that it wasn't Rothstein who built the bomb. But what Jim Fisher's saying is like, Bill Rothstein was behind everything. And Marjorie Deal Armstrong murdering Jim Roden was just like a gift that dropped in Bill Rothstein's lap that he could use to make all these puppets dance, including the cops. And that the whole point of it was to create this elaborate scheme, this elaborate crime that would puzzle people for years and years to come, which it's doing that. And that that was the point. And that Brian Wells was going to die one way or another, right?

• 44:56Josh Clark?

  Because I think the FBI said they concluded the whole scavenger hunt was a hoax and that Brian Wells was never going to survive this, didn't they?

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:05Josh Clark?

  So this is Jim Fisher's position. But like you said, now that everybody's dead, really, the only question is, you know, just how complicit was Brian Wells is the last big question.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 45:19Josh Clark?

  And then there's one other guy who seems to have got off scot-free named Floyd Stockton. Did you look into him?

• 45:25Speaker 02

  A little bit.

• 45:26Josh Clark?

  So he's a guy who was there. He was there. He supposedly handed Rothstein the bomb to put around Brian Wells' neck. He was staying with Rothstein as a buddy on his couch, fleeing a rape charge in Washington. And somehow, for some reason, he got immunity and was not indicted, even though he was very much involved in this. And he got off scot-free. And Brian Wells' family is going nuts over the fact that this guy's out there walking free, that he was a part of this caper and he didn't see a second inside of a jail.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there were more people involved, even.

• 46:06Josh Clark?

  So what do you think? Do you think Brian Wells was complicit? And if so, how much?

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I don't know. I mean, it sounds like. I kind of believe the story that they were all in it together and he was probably double-crossed, but this is just from reading about this thing many, many years later.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  Do you think Marjorie Deal Armstrong was the mastermind?

• 46:30Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 46:31Josh Clark?

  I don't know either. Maybe we'll never know. But we might. But probably not. You got anything else?

• 46:40Speaker 02

  I got nothing else.

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  All right. Well, if you want to know more about the collar bomb case, you can type that word in the search bar of your favorite search engine and it will likely bring up a very great article on Wired from Rich Shapiro. Read that. Start there. It's great. And since I said Rich Shapiro, it's time for listener mail.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  I'm going to go with one on emoji and John Adams. Hey, guys. Enjoyed the recent podcast about the history of emojis and emoticons. It reminded me of a discovery I made in the diaries of John Adams that makes a historical figure who's sometimes described as aloof seem completely charming. When the future president was about 22 years old, he made an entry in his diary in 1756 saying, "A cloudy morning, about 10," and he drew a little sunshine, "break out a warm day." He uses a little line drawing of the sun that I always call an 18th century emoji. He liked the little creation so much, he reused it a month

• 47:40Speaker 02

  later in the same diary, "A misty morning, little sunshine, break out about noon." On the Massachusetts Historical Society website, the text of his letters and diaries is faithfully transcribed, but in the cases, in these cases, a parenthetical note tells readers that there are small drawings of the sun and advises them to refer to the scans of the handwritten page where you can actually see this. Apparently, he grew out of his habit, though, because his later diaries do not use the adorable little sun. Keep up the great work. My wife and I host a local history podcast for Boston.

• 48:16Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  And it's tightly scripted. Man, he didn't even tell me what it was. I would have totally shouted it out.

• 48:20Josh Clark?

  What?

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Uh, I know. Big missed opportunity there, Jake.

• 48:25Josh Clark?

  Sad face.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  One of these days, we'll be confident enough to have an unscripted conversation like you guys do, and that is from Jake Sconyers.

• 48:33Josh Clark?

  Okay, so everybody just look up Jake Sconyers Boston History Podcast and he'll probably bring it up, right?

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably so.

• 48:40Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Jake. Thanks for keeping up the good fight up there. That's pretty cool. Good story, too. If you want to get in touch with us, like Jake did, tell us about your podcast, that's great. You can send us all an email to [email protected]. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 49:01Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 49:17Josh Clark?

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• 50:02Josh Clark?

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• 50:44Speaker 00

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