Selects: MC Escher and His Trippy Art

We love us some MC Escher. Turns out his story is pretty fascinating too. Tune in to this classic episode and find out all about it with Josh and Chuck. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:05Speaker 03

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bankguy. Capital One, N-A, Member FDIC. Hi, everybody. Chuck here on a Saturday. I'm just sitting here drawing cubes and things with my poor artwork, but you know who's really good at this? M.C. Escher. And this episode from December 2019 gets all into the life of the great artist, and the title is

• 1:48Speaker 03

  M.C. Escher and His Trippy Art. I hope you enjoy it.

• 1:56Speaker 04

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:05Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and there's Jerry over there and this is Stuff You Should Know, the artsy edition.

• 2:15Speaker 03

  This is Jerry Room Tone Rowland.

• 2:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think that's make believe stuff.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  Room tone?

• 2:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she might as well be like, "Let me capture a few fairies in this mason jar first." I think it's the same thing.

• 2:27Speaker 03

  We may need those in the final edit.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  Fairies.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  I don't know what it is about to explain to everyone. Room tone is you do this on film sets and in studios where you just make everyone sit completely silently while you capture the sound of the room. So I guess you can, what do you do with that Jerry? Do you layer it in in case you need it or something? Did you hear that everyone?

• 2:48Josh Clark?

  She said she cleans up the background. To everybody listening, it sounded like "Womp, womp, womp, womp."

• 2:55Speaker 03

  There's something about it though, it's like being in church and getting the giggles. It's really hard, especially on a film set when there's like 50 people standing around, being completely silent, no one farting.

• 3:05Josh Clark?

  I suspect it's strictly a power trip.

• 3:07Speaker 03

  You think so?

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  By the person calling for room tone. That's what I think.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  I'm gonna start doing that at my house when things get out of hand. Room tone! See if that works.

• 3:15Josh Clark?

  Don't make me bust out the room tone on you.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  None of that has to do with this stuff.

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  No, no. I was gonna say, since we're talking about room tone, obviously the topic today is M.C. Escher, who was well known for going berserk anytime someone asked him to be quiet for room tone. He would trash chairs, grab reptiles straight out of the two dimensions and throw them into the third dimension. Just do all sorts of weird stuff.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  That's funny.

• 3:41Josh Clark?

  Did you think so?

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  That was a joke just for you.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, so he, everyone knows M.C. Escher if you've ever been to college or taken drugs.

• 3:50Josh Clark?

  Or sold drugs to somebody in college.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  Then you've probably seen hands, drawing hands or, I mean, that's not what the name of that one was, but...

• 4:00Josh Clark?

  It's called Drawing Hands.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  Oh, is it?

• 4:02Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Or the, some of his more famous ones are the, these impossible rooms, like stairs that... Lead to sideways stairs, but you gotta wrap your head around it in a certain way to even make sense of it all.

• 4:14Josh Clark?

  Right, or stairs that lead into other stairs that lead back into the other stairs.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 4:19Josh Clark?

  It's just constant.

• 4:20Speaker 03

  Or, I'm a big fan of that one self-portrait he did in the-

• 4:23Josh Clark?

  With the sphere?

• 4:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:24Josh Clark?

  The mirror spheres?

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Mirror sphere?

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  It's cool.

• 4:27Josh Clark?

  It is very cool. I'm not crazy about the face, even though I'm sure he did it exactly precise.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:33Josh Clark?

  But the hand, if you look at the hand, it's really realistic. It's very pretty.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I like this stuff. This is not my style, as in, anything I would put on my walls these days.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  But I still think he's one of the coolest, more innovative artists out there.

• 4:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 03

  And there's a great factoid that I hope will hold till the end.

• 4:54Josh Clark?

  Which one?

• 4:55Speaker 03

  Oh, not the end, but kinda where it falls in our non-outline.

• 4:59Josh Clark?

  So what is-

• 4:59Speaker 03

  Non-outline.

• 5:00Josh Clark?

  What does factoid mean again? Does that mean you've killed 10% of all the facts?

• 5:02Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 5:03Josh Clark?

  And this is just one of the 10% remaining?

• 5:05Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  Okay. Gotcha. So, one of the things Chuck about M.C. Escher that I found was that if you are impressed by his work, prepare to get exponentially more impressed, as we talk about how he made those works, too.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Well, that's the fact of the show, for me.

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. That's the factoid you're talking about?

• 5:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, you gotta hold on to that.

• 5:24Josh Clark?

  Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. I was just teasing it a little bit. I didn't know that's what you were talking about, although I should've guessed.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:30Josh Clark?

  So, this is us talking about an artist, which means that we should probably talk about the artist being born.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:37Josh Clark?

  And in the case of M.C. Escher, whose name, by the way, was Moritz Cornelius? I wanna say Cornelius, but there's no U in there.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  I think Cornelius.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  Sure. Escher. I nailed the last nerm.

• 5:53Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 5:54Josh Clark?

  But I misspoke on name.

• 5:56Speaker 03

  Oh, you didn't say name?

• 5:58Josh Clark?

  I said nerm. So I nailed the last nerm. This is the point where the people say, "Get to the point already."

• 6:05Speaker 03

  Well, we are at that point. That's M.C. and then Escher, born June 17th, 1898, not 1989, as the grabster put it.

• 6:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  It's like, man.

• 6:17Josh Clark?

  He's like, "Here's some numbers."

• 6:20Speaker 03

  He was born in Leewarden, Netherlands. Grew up in Arnhem, which is about 60 miles southeast of Amsteldam.

• 6:28Josh Clark?

  Is that right?

• 6:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:30Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  I mapped all this stuff out.

• 6:31Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  It's all in kind of that general area.

• 6:33Josh Clark?

  You went on a little Google tour?

• 6:35Speaker 03

  Sure. And he signed even from early on as MCE. He signed his paintings, although people called him Mauk, M-A-U-K. Friends and family.

• 6:46Josh Clark?

  Right, which didn't mean anything, Ed points out, but it's just like, you know, an affectionate term for Moritz.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:53Josh Clark?

  Is it Moritz?

• 6:55Speaker 03

  Probably Moritz. Moritz Cornelius Escher.

• 6:58Josh Clark?

  But it could also go the way of Morris. So is it Moritz or Moritz?

• 7:02Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  I wish, I wish I knew.

• 7:05Speaker 03

  Well, what we do know is that, and this we should put a pin in because it sort of plays a big part in how he pursued his art, but his dad had some money.

• 7:15Josh Clark?

  He was a rich kid.

• 7:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:17Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 7:17Speaker 03

  Which really helps as we'll see as he's traipsing around Europe on dad's dime.

• 7:22Josh Clark?

  Slowly getting better at art, slowly.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a good point because he was not great in school. He did love drawing class, but apparently wasn't, you know, he didn't have his second grade teachers falling over themselves about what a talented artist he was.

• 7:40Josh Clark?

  No, and apparently he also didn't consider himself much of an artist, although he engaged in art, like he, he did produce art from a very young age. He was terrible in school except at math and at drawing. Apparently when he was in grade school, primary school, he failed his finals, all of them except for math. And I read that his father noted in his journal with some affection that his son consoled himself by producing a linotype of a sunflower. That's how he made himself feel better after, after failing out of school.

• 8:15Speaker 03

  Well, and he, he was somewhat adept at math early on, but it's interesting. His, his work is highly mathematical as far as art goes, but later on in life, when he was confronted with real mathematicians, he would sort of be like, no, not me, man. Like, I'm an artist. I'm not that kind of mathematician.

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  So I said, yes, but he was, most of his friends were mathematicians.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:38Josh Clark?

  For most of his career, he was mostly appreciated by mathematicians and scientists. Those are the people who really vibed on his work.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  And. Drugs.

• 8:48Josh Clark?

  That came later.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 8:49Josh Clark?

  That came later, when it got real popular. But I saw that somebody made a movie called Journey Into Infinity.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 8:56Josh Clark?

  It's a documentary, a full-length documentary. I believe the whole thing's on YouTube. And it starts out, the trailer starts out with Graham Nash saying, hey, I called up MC Escher one day just to say, Mr. Escher, I think you're a really great artist. That's all I wanted you to say. And he said, I don't consider myself an artist. I consider myself a mathematician.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 9:18Josh Clark?

  Yes. So I'm going with Graham Nash's interpretation.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  That runs counter to this.

• 9:23Josh Clark?

  Spoke to him directly, yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. He, I mean, not to spoil anything, but he died in 1972, at just 73. So, you know, if he would have lived to his like mid 80s, which is somewhat reasonable, he would have been like alive in the 80s, which just seems so weird.

• 9:43Josh Clark?

  It does seem kind of weird.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  You know?

• 9:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Because he was, he seems countercultural for sure, even though his, his personality was not very countercultural.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  No.

• 9:53Josh Clark?

  And he didn't really have much love for hippies. In fact, he later said that, the hippies in San Francisco are illegally making copies of my work.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 10:03Josh Clark?

  He, he didn't exactly follow, you know, the, the normal, usual beat throughout his lifetime. And he was, he was, he was a mathematician. He was a bit of a square, but he was also a very imaginative square.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  That's right. I was trying to make a square joke, but it's not coming to me.

• 10:22Josh Clark?

  Remember that show, Square Peg, Square Peg, Square?

• 10:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:25Josh Clark?

  Square, Pegs.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  Sarah Jessica Parker.

• 10:27Josh Clark?

  Was she in that?

• 10:28Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:28Josh Clark?

  She was also in Girls Just Want to Have Fun.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 10:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 03

  And I'm going to see her on Broadway next spring.

• 10:36Josh Clark?

  Really?

• 10:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, she and her husband are co-starring in Plaza Suite, Neil Simon's Plaza Suite.

• 10:41Josh Clark?

  Very nice.

• 10:42Speaker 03

  Very excited about that.

• 10:43Josh Clark?

  I'll bet.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  I'm trying to align it with the Bonnie Prince Billy show, but they're like a week apart. And I'm like, I can't just stay in New York for a week.

• 10:51Josh Clark?

  That's a lot of time to kill, especially when there's hourly flights between Atlanta and New York.

• 10:55Speaker 03

  I know. I may just go see Bonnie Prince Billy and come home, because he didn't play much. But that's a story for another day.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  All right, so he goes to school at Technical College of Delft, not for very long. And then he went to the Harlem with two As, School of Architecture and Decorative Arts, which is west of Amsterdam, not Harlem, New York.

• 11:18Josh Clark?

  Well, I think that's what the Harlem of New York is named after, right?

• 11:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:21Josh Clark?

  That's where Bonnie Prince Billy's playing.

• 11:23Speaker 03

  He's at Town Hall, actually.

• 11:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, is that right?

• 11:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:27Josh Clark?

  We played there.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  That's right. We got our stink on that joint. So, his dad said, you know, because, you know, his dad had a lot of money and made money. And even though you want to support your kids, you want the, you want to try and edge them into something.

• 11:39Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 11:40Speaker 03

  If you're that kind of dude, that might be lucrative. So he said, hey, you like to draw shapes, why don't you go study architecture? And he did that for a little while, even though he wasn't super into it. But while at school there, he had a very fortunate meeting by being mentored by one Samuel Jesserin de Mesquita.

• 12:00Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. Who would be his mentor, who noticed some of his early art, I'm not sure how he saw it. But he took one look at Escher's art and said, you don't need to go into architecture. Come study under me and learn graphic design. And so Escher did, he became a graphic designer, which he, whether he knew it or not, he had been his whole life up to that point. All of his work is very graphic in nature.

• 12:25Speaker 03

  And designy.

• 12:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it really, really is.

• 12:28Speaker 03

  But I'm sure his dad in the early, you know, 1920s was probably like, is that even a thing?

• 12:32Josh Clark?

  Right, that sounds made up.

• 12:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  But, well, his dad also, I don't know if he said it or not, was a civil engineer. So of course he would be like, you draw, just go do architecture.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 12:41Josh Clark?

  That's what I know. Civil engineering, and there's architects in the world. Just go do the other thing that I don't do.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  And he probably thought graphic design just meant like, you're gonna make signs?

• 12:50Josh Clark?

  Right, or postage stamps, or Christmas paper, which he did later on.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  That's right. So he made a little bit of dough. So, in the early 1920s, he started on his sort of rich kid journey, traveling around Europe on his dad's dime.

• 13:07Josh Clark?

  On a gap year that was really, really long.

• 13:09Speaker 03

  Very long. But on one of these trips, he went to a couple of places that would end up having a big influence on him.

• 13:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:17Speaker 03

  Uh, one in Spain at the Alhambra, uh, and then just traveling through southern Italy, through the countryside.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he just fell in love with Italy.

• 13:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, but in Spain, this is, this is one that didn't bear fruit right away, but he was really fascinated by these mosaics and, uh, tessellations.

• 13:35Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Which are described as?

• 13:37Josh Clark?

  Okay. They are repeating designs that interlock with one another, leave no space between one another, and that when you fit them together, they fully cover a plane, which is

• 13:49Speaker 03

  Nice job.

• 13:49Josh Clark?

  harder to do than you would think.

• 13:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, like if you've ever seen the Escher, uh, fish, um, sort of tessellation.

• 13:57Josh Clark?

  The white fish and the black fish kind of working in one another.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a perfect example, and, and he would do this a lot later on. If you've ever played Cubert?

• 14:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  That's, those cubes are tessellations.

• 14:09Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 14:10Speaker 03

  Uh, a certain kind.

• 14:11Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 14:12Speaker 03

  But, uh, he got really into this, even though it wasn't like right away that he started doing these things. That sort of came a little bit later.

• 14:18Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  But what he did do was started drawing the Italian countryside, because he loved it.

• 14:24Josh Clark?

  Loved it. I mean, like, he, he went to, to Italy and was like, this is my home.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:28Josh Clark?

  And he, he was quoted at one point in time as saying, like, he never wanted to become an Italian among Italians.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:34Josh Clark?

  He liked being a stranger, um, but he loved Italy.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, which is an interesting thing to say. I'm not exactly sure what it means.

• 14:40Josh Clark?

  I think what he was saying was he's, he, he likes being a visitor to Italy.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:47Josh Clark?

  Rather than, there's a certain amount of responsibility that comes with being one of us, you know what I mean?

• 14:53Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 14:54Josh Clark?

  Whereas if you can be like that guy over there who, we'll accept him, we're not gonna throw rocks at him every time we see him or anything like that, and we'll take his money and, you know, maybe even say hi to him or whatever, but we'll leave him alone. We won't include him in our expectations of what it means to be a local.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Gotcha.

• 15:09Josh Clark?

  That's what I think he was after. Clearly, I can identify with that.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  Uh, well, that kind of came through in his work too, because if you'll notice, uh, even in these, um, before he started doing the, like, trippy, uh, three-dimensional hands, drawing hands and stuff, when he was doing countrysides, he didn't do a lot of people, didn't do a lot of faces. People were very much in the background and nondescript. Uh, but even when you look at these, when you say Italian still lifes of countrysides. What came to mind for me were these beautiful, lush, colorful recreations of a countryside.

• 15:42Josh Clark?

  Nope.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  Nope. When you look at these, they still look very much like in the M.C. Escher style that we all know.

• 15:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like very clearly, a lot of that-

• 15:50Speaker 03

  I love them too. They're cool.

• 15:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they're beautiful. They're black and white, and then shades of gray, which is all just shading, right?

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:56Josh Clark?

  But they are beautiful in their way, lovely even.

• 15:59Speaker 03

  I like this stuff more than the trippy stuff.

• 16:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, this is something I would put on my wall.

• 16:05Josh Clark?

  You're an art snob. You're like, oh, I only like Escher's early Italian landscapes.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 16:11Josh Clark?

  You'd say that trippy stuff for Graham Nash.

• 16:14Speaker 03

  I'm so ashamed.

• 16:15Josh Clark?

  No, I think it's great, Chuck. You have cultivated yourself.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  But they are gorgeous. And then in 1923, he met his wife, whose name was Jetta.

• 16:27Josh Clark?

  Jetta Umiker.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  That's right. Very nice.

• 16:30Josh Clark?

  Thank you.

• 16:30Speaker 03

  She was Swiss.

• 16:31Josh Clark?

  I learned from the best.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  They met her in Italy, but she was Swiss. And she went home, and they sent a bunch of love letters. It's a very sweet story. I'm sure an M.C. Escher movie would be pretty cool.

• 16:43Josh Clark?

  Somebody wrote a script, or they wrote a dissertation about the process of writing a script about M.C. Escher. It's from University of Texas. They wrote it in 2017. I can't remember the name of it, but just look up, oh, just some random stuff comes up if you look up mosquito boot print, which will come up later.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 17:04Josh Clark?

  But if you search that on Google, it brings up, have you ever done that? Have you ever been like, I'm bored. I want to see what weird stuff I can unlock from Google?

• 17:12Speaker 03

  No.

• 17:12Josh Clark?

  And it takes a certain amount of skill, because Google wants to give you exactly what you're looking for. It doesn't want to give you just randomness. So you have to trick it. So maybe you'll type in a weird word, or the first three letters of a word or something like that. And weird stuff will start to come. Well, if you type in mosquito boot print, probably only like the first three of them pertain to M.C. Escher, and the rest are just a random assortment of links.

• 17:39Speaker 03

  I remember early in the days of Google, we had a mutual friend who they did this- What I thought was a very dumb game where they would try and find two words together that they would try and produce the fewest amount of Google results.

• 17:54Josh Clark?

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 03

  And whoever could put two words together that found the fewest one.

• 17:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  And I don't know if you remember them doing that, but.

• 18:01Josh Clark?

  I don't know, I don't remember you talking about.

• 18:02Speaker 03

  Colossal waste of time.

• 18:03Josh Clark?

  But I remember that some guy did like a TED Talk about that.

• 18:06Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 18:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:07Speaker 03

  Oh, well, maybe I'm the dummy.

• 18:08Josh Clark?

  No, no, no, it was meh.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  I mean, look at me, I do like M.C. Escher's early work.

• 18:13Josh Clark?

  I think that's awesome. I mean, what taste.

• 18:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:18Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 18:18Speaker 03

  So he meets and gets married, she returns to Italy and they marry in 1924.

• 18:25Josh Clark?

  Do you mean Jada Umiker?

• 18:26Speaker 03

  That's right. She would become Jada Escher.

• 18:29Josh Clark?

  Jada Umiker Escher.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  And they had a son named Giorgio, later had sons Arthur and Jan. And they were still just sort of traveling and his dad was, even though he was married, his dad was still footing the bill.

• 18:43Josh Clark?

  Escher's dad, M.C. Escher's father.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I was thinking about it, I was like, gosh, you know.

• 18:51Speaker 03

  He had a benefactor.

• 18:52Josh Clark?

  Wake up every day and look at yourself in the mirror. But if you're, if you're.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  Look in the mirror sphere.

• 18:56Josh Clark?

  Right. How do you, and then how do you draw it?

• 19:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:00Josh Clark?

  So amazingly, the, the father, Escher's father, though, they're like, what better way to spend your money than to just be like, this is what you want to do with your life, son? You want to pursue art and live in beautiful Italy than like, here, this is what I want for you. And that's like.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  If that's how it went down, that's awesome.

• 19:18Josh Clark?

  That's the pinnacle of what a parent can do for their child in a lot of ways.

• 19:22Speaker 03

  No, totally. I agree.

• 19:23Josh Clark?

  It's not like, hey, why don't you go, you know, take up heroin and here's a bunch of money for you to like lay around in Ibiza.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  True. I want to know more, I'm not, I hope I'm not coming across as cynical, but I wonder if some of this was like, he'll come around. If I, you know, to architecture or whatever.

• 19:40Josh Clark?

  Right. You kept waiting for the part where his father cuts him off?

• 19:43Speaker 03

  I was.

• 19:43Josh Clark?

  His father apparently wouldn't like that. All right. I know how you feel. I'm not trying to talk you into my way of thinking. I'm just saying, like, I had, I started out thinking the same way you did, and then something happened. I was like, oh, it was actually really neat of his dad.

• 19:56Speaker 03

  It was. It all seems above board.

• 19:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 03

  So, World War II has a profound effect on Escher and his work. In 1935, he learned that they were making his nine-year-old son Giorgio march in fascist youth parades. And he said, "Pack your bags, we're going to Switzerland."

• 20:15Josh Clark?

  That is the appropriate response to that news.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:18Josh Clark?

  "We're getting out of here, marching for Mussolini."

• 20:21Speaker 03

  Have you seen Jojo Rabbit yet?

• 20:24Josh Clark?

  No. Is it good? Is it as good as it looks?

• 20:26Speaker 03

  It's great.

• 20:27Josh Clark?

  Oh, I can't wait.

• 20:28Speaker 03

  It's great. Everything about it is great.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Do I need to see it in theater? It doesn't seem like one I have to see in the theater.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  No, I mean, you know, it's always fun to laugh with a big group of people, although by now it's probably thinned out.

• 20:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  And I was laughing a lot, and people weren't laughing.

• 20:41Josh Clark?

  Oh, I like that.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Kind of one of those deals.

• 20:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  I mean, it's a movie about a kid having Hitler as an imaginary friend, so.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  Don't tell me that. I didn't know. No, I had no idea.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  Hitler's on the poster.

• 20:52Josh Clark?

  I know, but I didn't know he was an imaginary friend. Oh, get out of my brain.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Sorry. That really doesn't spoil anything.

• 20:59Josh Clark?

  Okay. Don't tell me anything else.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  That's not some big reveal. So they go to Switzerland. All apologies.

• 21:06Josh Clark?

  It's all right. I'll let it slide.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  It's really not a big deal.

• 21:08Josh Clark?

  As long as it's not a big spoiler.

• 21:09Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, of course not.

• 21:10Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  They go to Switzerland, and he, even though he did not like the mountains, he didn't like the snow, did not like cold weather. So they moved to Belgium after a couple of years.

• 21:22Josh Clark?

  Which is just beautiful compared to Switzerland.

• 21:26Speaker 03

  Belgium's nice.

• 21:26Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  In the 19, in May of 1940, though, the Nazis invaded Belgium, and so they moved to the Netherlands in 1941.

• 21:36Josh Clark?

  Where the Nazis already were.

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:38Josh Clark?

  I guess they were like, can't occupy it again.

• 21:41Speaker 03

  Well, and it's home.

• 21:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  And they settled in Baaarn, which is about 23 miles southeast of Amsterdam.

• 21:48Josh Clark?

  I don't know if that's how you're supposed to say it.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  B-A-A-A-A-R-N.

• 21:53Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:56Josh Clark?

  I like it.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  It's probably Beren.

• 21:57Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, I'll bet you just nailed it.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  I think so, but Dutch is very strange.

• 22:02Josh Clark?

  It is.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  Language.

• 22:03Josh Clark?

  But supposedly.

• 22:03Speaker 03

  Not strange, but just for my English, dumb English ears.

• 22:06Josh Clark?

  Supposedly, English is the strangest of all.

• 22:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm sure.

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  It's just a hybrid mongrel language.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:12Josh Clark?

  That doesn't make any sense to anyone who's not a native speaker of it.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  You know what is an interesting language is Welsh. Cause I'm watching The Crown and when Prince Charles starts coming around, Prince of Wales. There's people speaking Welsh and I, I was very ignorant about even knowing that.

• 22:29Josh Clark?

  What it sounds like?

• 22:29Speaker 03

  What it sounds like and that it was still spoken and it was a very odd hybrid. It sounded like of several different things.

• 22:37Josh Clark?

  It's all old Celtic stuff.

• 22:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's very unusual.

• 22:40Josh Clark?

  Gaelic, Gaelic.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:42Josh Clark?

  I think it's Gaelic.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Gaelic.

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  Language group, one of the two.

• 22:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:45Josh Clark?

  Everything I know about Welsh, I learned from super furry animals.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:50Josh Clark?

  Cause that guy's Welsh.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Man, I saw them blow Grandaddy off the stage one time.

• 22:55Josh Clark?

  Oh, you saw him live?

• 22:56Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 22:56Josh Clark?

  Oh, I think you told me that.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  It melted my brain.

• 22:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  It was so good.

• 22:59Josh Clark?

  I'll bet.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  So they're traveling around still, even though they're settled in Beren. And they go back to Alhambra in Spain, which I don't even think we said what that is.

• 23:10Josh Clark?

  No, it's a, it's a 13th century Moorish castle from when the Moors conquered Spain.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  It's beautiful.

• 23:15Josh Clark?

  It is very beautiful and they built it in the Moorish style. And then it was eventually like taken over by the Christian like royalty that, that explored the new world and all that stuff.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:26Josh Clark?

  But this castle was done in these tiles that are renowned for being some of the most beautiful geometric, like Islamic patterns you've ever seen in your life.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:40Josh Clark?

  And they got to Escher. He'd seen him before, but it, it was, I guess he was like, oh, that's kind of cool.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:45Josh Clark?

  But the second trip that he went back with, after they moved to, from Switzerland, I think to Belgium, or maybe to Switzerland. That's when he was like, I am obsessed with these now.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:56Josh Clark?

  These tessellations.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  Started drawing them. Jetta did too. It says that they worked together. So I'm not, I didn't know that she was an artist.

• 24:04Josh Clark?

  I didn't either.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  But they.

• 24:09Speaker 03

  World War II comes back around, well, not comes back around, it never left, let's be honest. But Spain would devolve into civil war. And so this meant that he was kind of stuck in, outside of Amsterdam for a little while longer.

• 24:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  He wasn't doing as much traveling.

• 24:25Josh Clark?

  No, he was in the Netherlands and he rekindled his friendship with Mesquita, his old mentor, who had stayed in Netherlands this whole time. And Mesquita was Jewish and he was taken away by the Nazis eventually. He was killed at Auschwitz, I believe, with his wife.

• 24:50Speaker 03

  Terrible.

• 24:50Josh Clark?

  And their son was also killed at another concentration camp by the Nazis. And this really got to Escher.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:57Josh Clark?

  Like, this is one of his dear friends and he had a work, a sketch of Mesquita's. When he went to his house to visit Mesquita, he found the door was open and they weren't there and they clearly had been taken by the Nazis. And one of the pieces of artwork that he gathered together to preserve was a sketch of Mesquita's that had a Nazi boot print on it.

• 25:16Speaker 03

  And that's what you were referenced earlier.

• 25:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  With your Google search.

• 25:19Josh Clark?

  Mesquita boot print.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Did you, was there a picture of it?

• 25:21Josh Clark?

  No, I couldn't find anything aside from the fact that it was a sketch. Not that it was a sketch of what or anything like that, just that there was a sketch of Mesquita's that was, that had a boot, bore a boot print. And that Escher hung on to this his entire life. It was very important to him. And he was not a very flowery, like, passionate man or anything like that. I get the impression that he, and this is Escher I'm talking about, that he internalized a lot of stuff. And I think that him holding on to that piece of art was probably more significant than even it appears on the outside.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and supposedly hid some people from a Jewish family during the Nazi occupation years. And also during those same years, did not exhibit or release any prints.

• 26:15Josh Clark?

  Wait a minute, I think you just said hid some people from a Jewish family. Or did you say hid some members of a Jewish family?

• 26:22Speaker 03

  Well, people, members of a Jewish family.

• 26:24Josh Clark?

  But you said from, I think.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, like, they were from a Jewish family and he did them.

• 26:29Josh Clark?

  Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  He didn't hide them from the family.

• 26:32Josh Clark?

  Right, right. Don't tell a Jewish family that you're hiding over here.

• 26:35Speaker 03

  No, that would have been weird. So maybe we should take a break now.

• 26:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, I think it's unravelled.

• 26:42Speaker 03

  Sort through who the good guys are.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Speaker 03

  All right.

• 26:54Speaker 05

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• 27:31Speaker 04

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• 27:46Speaker 06

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• 27:57Speaker 04

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• 28:40Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, so World War II kind of comes and goes around Escher despite his best efforts to escape it. And it definitely had a mark on him, but one of the other things that had a really big mark on him was having to move from Italy. It was like you said, like he was married, had a family, his father was still supporting him, and every spring and summer, he would just tour the Italian countryside and visit small quaint towns and just be inspired to keep making these Italian landscapes. But Ed makes a really great point here that his Italian landscapes are very handsome works of art, very beautiful.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  My favorite.

• 29:16Josh Clark?

  Technically proficient, they're Chuck's favorite. But you would almost certainly have never seen them in your entire life.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  No.

• 29:23Josh Clark?

  Were it not for him moving from Italy. Because in doing so, he lost his source of inspiration and was forced to kind of turn inward because he hated what Switzerland looked like. He wasn't apparently very inspired by his home country of the Netherlands. So he had to kind of turn inward into his own imagination and start coming up with new subjects. And in doing that, the true Escher was unlocked.

• 29:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, because early, and like a lot of artists, early in their career, they kind of free ranged through different styles, trying to find their own personal thing.

• 29:58Josh Clark?

  He had a very colorful clown period. It's very bizarre, doesn't fit with the rest of it.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Very John Wayne Gacy.

• 30:05Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  But you can very clearly see, if you look at Moschita's work, the connection and the influence from him. Although Moschita did a lot of sort of graphic portraits and things like that, whereas Escher didn't really worry too much about humans and faces.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. They were just kind of like almost afterthoughts.

• 30:26Speaker 03

  But early on, he did start experimenting with stuff that would later become sort of his hallmark, when he did do like a... Sketch of a building, let's say. It would be from this really like tall, odd angle, looking down on it. Very severe angles and like a horizon or trees that sort of go on into infinity, stuff like that, that would become very much his style later on. And Ed very astutely points out that there's something about his style that,

• 30:59Speaker 03

  I don't know how dark of a person he was emotionally, but there is something about the severity of these angles and a lot of his work that was just sort of uneasy feeling.

• 31:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  It didn't look like just some beautiful, colorful Italian countryside. There was something kind of strange and unusual about it.

• 31:20Josh Clark?

  Something about the contrast of black and white definitely does it too. And he was such a master of shading that if something was stark and black and white, I mean, unless it was his earliest work, it was because he wanted it to look that way and to make it stark and kind of unsettling like that. But yeah, there's like a certain amount of dread in a lot of his stuff.

• 31:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:42Josh Clark?

  And it's not something you can easily put your finger on, but it's definitely there.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, did you see the mummified priests?

• 31:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 03

  That was creepy. And then one of his-

• 31:53Josh Clark?

  But isn't it more creepy to actually do that in real life?

• 31:56Speaker 03

  To mummify priests?

• 31:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, to stand them up like that in these little alcoves?

• 32:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  Sure. He was just, "Don't kill the messenger."

• 32:04Speaker 03

  And he would have sometimes skulls featured in some of his work and stuff like that, like the one of the eye, I believe called eye, right in the middle of the pupil is a skull staring back.

• 32:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  So he had little touches like that without going full like, you know, Lovecraftian.

• 32:22Josh Clark?

  Right, or Goya or something like that.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  I don't even know who that is.

• 32:25Josh Clark?

  Hieronymus Bosch?

• 32:26Speaker 03

  I don't know who that is.

• 32:27Josh Clark?

  Sure you do.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  I'm just kidding.

• 32:28Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  I know those people.

• 32:30Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  His, I guess this is where we get to the fact of the show for me.

• 32:36Josh Clark?

  Take it away Chuck.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  Because, folks, if you've ever seen an M.C. Escher print, and you thought, "Man, that guy could sure draw a print." Imagine cutting that out of wood.

• 32:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, in reverse.

• 32:49Speaker 03

  In reverse.

• 32:50Josh Clark?

  Because that's what he did. A lot of his stuff were woodcuts. Even harder than that Chuck, is the lithograph.

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, so a woodcut, if you've ever made a, used a stamp, or made a potato stamp, as a kid.

• 33:04Josh Clark?

  You're basically M.C. Escher.

• 33:06Speaker 03

  Well, that's what it is. He's actually carving this stuff into wood as a negative image, because then when you run ink over it and stamp it, you get the positive image. And it's just incredible. I mean, it's hard enough to draw and sketch this stuff.

• 33:19Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  Much less, cut it out of wood.

• 33:21Josh Clark?

  Right, so, so just take a step back and think about the Eschers that you've seen before. Imagine that they have, they were originally carved out of wood.

• 33:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:29Josh Clark?

  And now, imagine that to get even more detailed, because you can't adjust how much ink a certain part of the wood block gets. It's all gonna get an even layer of ink. So to shade something, you have to do crosshatching, lines, stippling, something like that. But to get really detailed with shading, you need multiple blocks of the same image, in the exact same size, with different parts accentuated. So that you can layer over, you can take the same paper, and layer them on different blocks, and line them up, so that you have layers to this image. That was the level of the woodcuts this guy was doing.

• 34:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, that's sort of like a t-shirt hippie.

• 34:12Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  Screen printing like a four-color shirt.

• 34:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  You gotta layer, you gotta put it on exactly in the, in the spot that it needs to go each time. Drag that ink across. So it's not, you know, off by a centimeter.

• 34:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  Because it would look bad.

• 34:27Josh Clark?

  So the woodcuts, especially as earlier woodcuts, you can tell they're woodcuts, they look like woodcuts.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:33Josh Clark?

  Some of them do not. There's some of the Italian countryside. That just are just, yeah, are just astounding. And when you stop and think about the idea that they, it's not a drawing, that they're woodcuts, multiple blocked woodcuts is, is pretty astounding. But like I was saying, to me, even, even more difficult is making the lithograph.

• 34:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I think I talked about this on some other episode. I know I talked about batiking, but I also talked in industrial arts, we did offset lithography.

• 35:07Josh Clark?

  In that social experiment high school you went to.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  Exactly. Uh, we did offset lithography, which, um, basically, I mean, that's the process today. I mean, that's how they make newspapers, posters, books, maps, kind of everything is with offset lithography.

• 35:22Josh Clark?

  It was in.

• 35:24Speaker 03

  Do you remember?

• 35:25Josh Clark?

  It was in the, um, Etch A Sketch episode.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 35:28Josh Clark?

  That's what Ohio Art originally did was lithography.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 35:31Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, that's a deep cut.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  This is pre, like today you use like aluminum or some other kind of metal sheet.

• 35:37Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:37Speaker 03

  And these emulsions and chemicals. Uh, back then, uh, it was drawn onto limestone, a flat slab of limestone with a grease pencil. And then use a chemical treatment, uh, to, uh, on the areas that basically water and ink don't mix. It's sort of all built on that principle.

• 35:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  So the areas where you have written in grease, uh, do not hold that ink. Or is it the other way around?

• 36:03Josh Clark?

  No, I think they don't hold the ink.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. Again, what you're doing is creating a negative image, just like the woodcut essentially.

• 36:09Josh Clark?

  Right. So you've got this, um, attraction and repulsion interplay between ink, water and grease.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 36:18Josh Clark?

  And, uh, when you put it all together on limestone, it makes these extremely subtle gradients of shading, um, that are kind of like a hallmark of some of Escher's more, um, well-known works.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:36Josh Clark?

  The hands drawing hands, right?

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  That was a lithograph. He made that with limestone and grease pen and ink and, um, did it in reverse too. Because just like with the woodblock, you have to create the negative of it.

• 36:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:50Josh Clark?

  Because the, you want the positive image on the paper.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  You have a very special brain if this is, if you can work this stuff out as an artist.

• 36:57Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 36:58Speaker 03

  You know, it's, uh, not saying that. Any kind of artist is any better or worse or smarter than the next. But your brain just has to be wired a little bit differently to think in negatives like that.

• 37:10Josh Clark?

  Like a mathematician, basically.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:12Josh Clark?

  Your brain has to be set up that way.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. Uh, but lithography is difficult, very labor intensive. Uh, so later on, he would hire a lithographer to actually create his prints after he has sketched and drawn this stuff out.

• 37:26Josh Clark?

  Smart move.

• 37:27Speaker 03

  And he would destroy the limestone. Well, he wouldn't destroy it. He would scrape it clean so he could reuse it.

• 37:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:32Speaker 03

  So that's the reason, like, if you want to buy an original M.C. Escher, good luck.

• 37:38Josh Clark?

  Well, there's, there's no such thing. There's original prints that he made.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:41Josh Clark?

  Uh, and apparently.

• 37:42Speaker 03

  But you're not going to get your hands on one of those limestones.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  No, but there are a couple of those left over, but he said that he wanted them, I think, canceled is what they call it in his will.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:52Josh Clark?

  Where they intentionally damage it.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:55Josh Clark?

  So that even if you got a hold of one of these things and you were like, I'm going to print me a brand new Escher.

• 37:59Speaker 03

  Uh-huh.

• 38:00Josh Clark?

  Um, there'd be like the, like the, the negative image of Snagglepuss like comes through and like the, the hand drawing hands picture.

• 38:09Speaker 03

  Uh, and he did not do many original prints from those original woodcuts and lithographs either. I think he only did 10.

• 38:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  Of still life with, uh, spherical mirror.

• 38:19Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:19Speaker 03

  And so anything, obviously, anything you buy in a Spencer Gifts is going to be a print anyway.

• 38:25Josh Clark?

  What? They told me it was an original.

• 38:29Speaker 03

  You mean Bikini Lady on Corvette?

• 38:32Josh Clark?

  You can probably get the original of that at Spencer's.

• 38:34Speaker 03

  You probably could, the original Negative. Um.

• 38:37Josh Clark?

  Bikini Lady on Corvette.

• 38:39Speaker 03

  Oh, man, remember those?

• 38:40Josh Clark?

  Garfield with Lamborghini.

• 38:43Speaker 03

  The, uh, these lithographs, he would also layer those, just like he did with the woodcuts.

• 38:47Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  Creating, uh, multiple plates to layer on top of one another for shading and toning and stuff like that.

• 38:53Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  It's just amazing.

• 38:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 03

  I mean, I did it to make a monkey's T-shirt.

• 38:57Josh Clark?

  I forgot you used to screen print too, so did I.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  Well, actually, the monkey's t-shirt was screen printing. I think, I can't remember what I did for a lithograph. I think something to make a notepad that said like my name and something else.

• 39:11Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's right. So you, you screen printed in industrial arts?

• 39:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:15Josh Clark?

  Okay. Like, were you ever employed gainfully as a screen?

• 39:19Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 39:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, no.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Did you do that?

• 39:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I would have loved to, I wasn't good enough.

• 39:24Josh Clark?

  It's, oh, it's not hard.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you would draw this stuff, or you would just?

• 39:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, no, no, no, no. Would like, burn the screens and everything and drag the ink through.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Did you do that for, for a job?

• 39:35Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  Well, like, high school?

• 39:36Josh Clark?

  No, this is early, this is college.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  What kind of dough do you make doing that?

• 39:40Josh Clark?

  Uh, jack.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  Yeah?

• 39:41Josh Clark?

  But it's fun, it's cool work, you know, you just listen to music and-

• 39:44Speaker 03

  Get paid in beer and a few bucks?

• 39:45Josh Clark?

  Pretty much. Hang out with some cool dudes and, you know, that's about it.

• 39:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, I gotcha. Say no more.

• 39:51Josh Clark?

  It's a good, good early college job, you know what I mean?

• 39:53Speaker 03

  I, I think it'd be cool. And, I mean, there's a, a very cool t-shirt, local t-shirt shop here that every time I go over there, because that's where our friend, uh, the patchmaker, uh, Katie Culp works. Or at least she used to, I think she's got her own space now.

• 40:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, cool.

• 40:07Speaker 03

  But she shared a space with t-shirt dudes.

• 40:10Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:10Speaker 03

  And anytime I'm in there, it's just a good vibe, you know what I mean?

• 40:13Josh Clark?

  It really is. Yeah.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  There are a lot worse places to spend your time-

• 40:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:16Speaker 03

  -than a t-shirt shop.

• 40:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  So, uh, oh, another thing we should point out is that he did do color occasionally, but color was a whole different, you had to do a separate stone for each color.

• 40:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:28Speaker 03

  So that's why a lot of his stuff ended up in black and white.

• 40:31Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:31Speaker 03

  Aside from the fact that he liked it as well.

• 40:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he seemed to be very pleased with black and white in general.

• 40:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:36Speaker 03

  I'm not saying he was lazy.

• 40:37Josh Clark?

  No. But let's take a step back here for a second and, and examine the idea that you thought M.C. Escher was a pretty amazing artist when you just imagined that he was sitting in his studio, drawing all this stuff with a pencil.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:50Josh Clark?

  Now, really let it sink in that he carved these things in reverse, out of wood.

• 40:56Speaker 03

  Or limestone.

• 40:56Josh Clark?

  Or limestone.

• 40:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:58Josh Clark?

  And then used these crazy techniques to make these extraordinarily detailed, incredibly precise and technical works of art.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  It's amazing.

• 41:09Josh Clark?

  It really is amazing.

• 41:10Speaker 03

  Truly astounding. Uh, and like you said, there are a few of those stones and wood blocks, uh, that are owned by the M.C. Escher Foundation.

• 41:17Josh Clark?

  Snagglepuss on every single one of them.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  And apparently, uh, they will, they will display them occasionally. Along with his works.

• 41:24Josh Clark?

  Right, which I imagine seeing that and then looking at the work of art and then going back and looking at that limestone and then looking at the work of art, it really kind of sinks in like, oh my.

• 41:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'd love to see an exhibition of his stuff.

• 41:37Josh Clark?

  Me too. They've picked up in recent years.

• 41:39Speaker 03

  Have they?

• 41:39Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, it seems like he's being more appreciated as a truly great artist in less

• 41:45Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  college dorm wall material.

• 41:47Josh Clark?

  Yep. In 2011, the record for highest overall attendance in the world, out of all the museums in the world that year, was at the Centro Cultural Banco de Brasil, which held their Magical World of Escher exhibit.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 42:03Josh Clark?

  570,000 visitors, about 10,000 a day.

• 42:07Speaker 03

  Holy cow.

• 42:08Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  So if you think lithography and woodcutting sounds difficult, we'll talk a minute about mezzotint. That is sort of like woodcutting, except you're using a sheet of copper that starts out as a rough surface and then use these little tools to smooth out things that are going to be the image, applying that ink and then wiping it off.

• 42:31Josh Clark?

  Right, so the places you smooth out are

• 42:35Speaker 03

  Don't have ink.

• 42:35Josh Clark?

  The ones that are going to be white on the paper or blank on the paper, right? It's the rough edges that hold the ink. So you cover the whole thing with ink, wipe it down, the smooth starts, parts come clean, the rough stuff has the ink and you can use this like, this is, this isn't like, oh, look, I made an X.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 42:56Josh Clark?

  This is like incredibly fine stippling

• 43:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:02Josh Clark?

  is possible with these copper plates and all this in a mezzotint. And the eye that you were talking about, the one with the skull, if you go back and look at that, that was a mezzotint.

• 43:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it was dew drop.

• 43:13Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  A very detailed cupped leaf, showing a single drop of dew inside it with all kinds of cool reflections. But Escher called this the black art. He only made eight of these because it is a real undertaking and I think he is just, he did a handful of them and then moved on to the far easier woodcutting.

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  Right, right. He's like, oh, I came back, baby.

• 43:39Speaker 03

  All right, well, we'll take a break and then we'll come back and pick up with his life story again, which is, I believe we left off in what, end of World War II?

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  Sounds right.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  All right.

• 43:58Speaker 05

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• 44:35Speaker 04

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• 44:50Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 45:01Speaker 04

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• 45:44Speaker 03

  Okay, World War II is over. M.C. Escher was, like a lot of people, very rattled by that experience in Europe. And at this point, he still is not a super famous artist making tons of money.

• 46:00Josh Clark?

  No, but he's more famous than this makes him out to be.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:04Josh Clark?

  He's got some renown in the Netherlands or some exhibits.

• 46:08Speaker 03

  Certain circles.

• 46:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah. But he's not anywhere, anywhere even approaching how he is today or how he has been the last few decades since about like the late 60s.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, college dorms have not yet started putting his stuff everywhere.

• 46:20Josh Clark?

  No, but the people who most appreciate what he's doing are scientists and mathematicians who are like, "This is astounding. This guy is taking what we write out as formulas and turning them into art and making them precise."

• 46:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:36Josh Clark?

  Like you could describe this work of art as a formula. That is what M.C. Escher was able to do. He was able to take math and translate it into a visual art.

• 46:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you know, remember what you said earlier. This is where we are in his life, where he is not in the Italian countryside.

• 46:53Josh Clark?

  He's been ripped from its bodice.

• 46:55Speaker 03

  So his muse is gone and he is now looking inward for his inspiration in his own unique brain.

• 47:01Josh Clark?

  He's being forced into his own bodice, face first.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  This is where he starts with these tessellations, more elaborate geometric shapes. He's doing the lizards and the birds and the insects as tessellations. Really, really cool stuff. His brother said, "Hey dude, you know what you should do is go talk to a crystallographer." He's like, "If you want to talk detailed shapes and math."

• 47:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:25Speaker 03

  And he does so, and that taught him a lot. And then he learned about the 17 wallpaper groups.

• 47:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  Which is so dense that, you know, how much do we even want to talk about it?

• 47:36Josh Clark?

  Well, we'll just sum it up. The 17 wallpaper groups basically is a mathematical concept that says every geometric pattern, two-dimensional geometric pattern, falls into one of 17 categories. There's only 17. And they're called, kind of half-jokingly, the wallpaper groups because wallpaper has geometric patterns on it usually, right?

• 47:57Josh Clark?

  Escher... Couldn't understand it mathematically.

• 48:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was proved out twice independently.

• 48:03Josh Clark?

  The, that there are seventeen wallpaper.

• 48:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, the mathematical proof.

• 48:06Josh Clark?

  One of the things that's interesting Chuck is the Alhambra apparently is the only place in the world that contains all seventeen geometric wallpaper patterns.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Within its walls? That's pretty cool.

• 48:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so of course this would appeal to Escher, but he didn't understand, he couldn't sit down and explain like we can't, what the seventeen wallpaper groups are, or what they mean mathematically. But he understood them intuitively, and as he became friends with mathematicians, you know, about mid-career, he was apparently kind of amused to find like, you know, these guys spend all this time writing this stuff out and these formulas and I just know it. It was almost like I was born knowing it.

• 48:49Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 48:50Josh Clark?

  I guess he was real cocky. He wasn't really though, I'm just kidding.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  And I didn't get the idea either that he was like, take your math and shove it. He was just a little more amused that like, you've got these mathematical proofs and that, like I'm drawing this stuff for my creative brain.

• 49:07Josh Clark?

  On limestone.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  On limestone, cutting it out of wood. So I think he appreciated the way they coalesced. But, and he was very, like you said, most of his friends were mathematicians, I think later in life, who did he?

• 49:21Josh Clark?

  The Penroses?

• 49:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, Roger and Lionel Penrose, I love how it's described here, father and son mathematician team.

• 49:30Speaker 03

  You know those.

• 49:31Josh Clark?

  They wore matching dolphin shorts.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Oh man.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  Part of their uniform.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  I wish people still wore those. Did you ever wear those?

• 49:39Josh Clark?

  No, they were a little before my time.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Well, they were for joggers and runners.

• 49:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I didn't start that until like 2011. And who do, I forgot about that. Yeah, that is what Hooters waitresses wore, huh?

• 49:52Speaker 03

  Dolphin shorts with bronze pantyhose.

• 49:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and then chunky white socks.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Reebok high tops.

• 49:59Josh Clark?

  It was bizarre.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  Interesting look.

• 50:00Josh Clark?

  Somebody put that together, and not a woman. Um, do you remember there was a, uh, there was a Hooters airline?

• 50:08Speaker 03

  What?

• 50:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  Wow, that kind of rings a bell.

• 50:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  That was very short-lived, I imagine.

• 50:13Josh Clark?

  I believe so, it was pretty short-lived.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 50:16Josh Clark?

  I guess, yeah.

• 50:17Speaker 03

  So you would get asked, like, what kind of drink and what style of chicken wing do you want?

• 50:21Josh Clark?

  I bet they did serve chicken wings on those.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 50:25Josh Clark?

  But can you imagine being on an airplane, being forced to smell chicken wings the whole time if you didn't like it?

• 50:29Speaker 03

  Uh, that's like every flight I ever take.

• 50:32Josh Clark?

  It's true.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  There's somebody with some stinky food.

• 50:34Josh Clark?

  You know, if I sit next to somebody on the plane and I'm gonna eat, I ask them if it's okay if I eat.

• 50:40Speaker 03

  Like if you bring food on?

• 50:41Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 50:42Speaker 03

  I don't bring food on to a flight.

• 50:44Josh Clark?

  Sometimes, dude, you just have to.

• 50:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:47Josh Clark?

  It's a long flight and they run out of turkey wraps, like, in the first half a second.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  So you just pull out your, what?

• 50:54Josh Clark?

  My Kung Pow.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  Out of your pocket, you had just in case there are out of turkey wraps?

• 50:57Josh Clark?

  Not even in a container, it's just in my pocket.

• 51:01Speaker 03

  Oh goodness. So, uh, I thought this part was sort of amusing, um, how orderly he always was with his art.

• 51:07Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:08Speaker 03

  And he, he tried to get into chaos a bit in, uh, this one work, Contrast (Order and Chaos), parentheses, wherein he went and dug up a bunch of trash and said, "I will, I will draw chaos." And it ended up being, if you go and look at it, there's like a broken bottle, a broken eggshell, an open sardine tin, a broken clay pipe, and some other refuse, drawn to, like, perfect, or I guess woodcutter, lithographed, with perfect, beautiful precision.

• 51:39Josh Clark?

  Right, that was chaos, his interpretation of it.

• 51:42Speaker 03

  He just couldn't do it.

• 51:43Josh Clark?

  He was very much preoccupied with chaos. He has a very famous quote, probably his most famous quote, quote, "We adore chaos because we love to produce order." And he's like, "By we, I mean me."

• 51:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was about to say.

• 51:54Josh Clark?

  M.C., yeah, sure.

• 51:55Speaker 03

  Sounded very much like an I statement.

• 51:57Josh Clark?

  But he was, he was very much into geometry and precision and clean lines and all of that.

• 52:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and also, as his career would progress, this, these repeating patterns on a finite space. If you've seen his Circle Limit series, that's where you'll find the fish or these demons. And they start out with like one in the center. And then there's a pattern all around and as it gets closer and closer to the edge, they get smaller and smaller and smaller.

• 52:24Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:25Speaker 03

  And you can just sort of imagine that there is no end.

• 52:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  Uh, to these shapes.

• 52:29Josh Clark?

  That they're just going infinitely around the sphere.

• 52:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:32Josh Clark?

  Perfectly, but again, you have to stop and remind yourself, this is a two dimensional image I'm looking at.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 52:37Josh Clark?

  And then secondly, this is cut out of wood.

• 52:41Josh Clark?

  But yeah, he apparently made a three dimensional wood carving of his Circle Limit series later on in life. And I'll bet that's spectacular to see too.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  He made a what?

• 52:49Josh Clark?

  A three dimensional wood carving of it.

• 52:51Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 52:52Josh Clark?

  Basically proving that his, his two dimensional drawing was accurate.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:56Josh Clark?

  Because he made it in the three dimensions.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 52:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's pretty, he was just showing off toward the end there.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  Uh, I like reptiles.

• 53:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's a good one.

• 53:05Speaker 03

  Aside from his early countryside work that is far superior. Uh, the Tessellation of the Lizards and Reptiles is really neat. That's the one that has, uh, the lizards being, uh, like crawling off of the page as a drawn image. Circling around, walking over some books and then crawling back over onto the page as a drawn image.

• 53:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 03

  Very neat.

• 53:26Josh Clark?

  It's a, it's a lot like the hands drawing or drawing hands one kind of where the hands are drawing themselves or one another, but they're also three dimensional too. And that actually kind of jobs with another quote he had, um, that I think really sums that style of art up. He said, "The flat shape irritates me. I feel as if I were shouting to my figures. You are too fictitious for me. You just lie there, static and frozen together. Do something, come out of there and show me what you are capable of." And he would shout it just like that.

• 54:00Speaker 03

  And then Jetta would back out of the room slowly. Okay, dear, here's your tea.

• 54:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Speaker 03

  Uh, and that sort of brings us to with the reptiles, uh, we, we need to talk a little bit about illusion. Because it started sort of early on, he was preoccupied with illusion, whether it was like these lizards coming off the page, or still life in street, which is a tabletop that blends into a street scene.

• 54:25Josh Clark?

  That's a neat one.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's really cool. I like that one, too. Or relativity, which, I don't know, I mean, is there a most famous, maybe hands?

• 54:33Josh Clark?

  It's between hands, self-portrait with sphere and relativity.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, relativity is the one with the staircases.

• 54:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and people going up and downstairs that don't go anywhere, but they go everywhere and they circle back on each other. And it's just an impossible staircase, actually called Penrose Stairs.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 54:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 54:51Speaker 03

  After the famous father and son math magician team?

• 54:53Josh Clark?

  And speaking of the Penroses, they, um...

• 54:56Speaker 03

  Did I just say math magician? I just invented something. I did.

• 55:00Josh Clark?

  That's amazing.

• 55:01Speaker 03

  Completely by accident.

• 55:02Josh Clark?

  Um, the Penroses, that would be great, math magician.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, I bet that's something.

• 55:06Josh Clark?

  Four!

• 55:11Josh Clark?

  But the Penroses apparently wrote, they saw some of Escher's work, wrote a paper explaining his work about impossible things like impossible stairs, which came to be called Penrose Stairs. And Escher was either mailed a copy of this, or somebody pointed out to him. So he created something called House of Stairs, or Upstairs Downstairs, one of the two, and sent one of the original prints to the Penroses. So in a way, their correspondence and inspiration for one another was like a set of impossible stairs in real life. Isn't that interesting?

• 55:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. And this is, you know, we were talking earlier about how his works somehow felt unsettling. And, you know, the subject matter as well, when you think about these, the subjects walking in relativity, clearly never getting anywhere, walking downstairs, I'm sideways, all of a sudden, I'm walking back into the same staircase I was just on.

• 56:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 56:08Speaker 03

  Like, you imagine if these things were to come alive, they would be frustrated, angry people.

• 56:13Josh Clark?

  Right. And as a matter of fact, one of the, um, the one that you were just talking about, upstairs, downstairs?

• 56:20Josh Clark?

  They, um, that was supposedly based on some, a staircase in his school.

• 56:27Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 56:28Josh Clark?

  Which suddenly says quite a bit about his psychology, don't you think?

• 56:31Speaker 03

  Well, how so?

• 56:32Josh Clark?

  Uh, well, I mean, like, these, these students aren't going anywhere. They're not even human. They're centipedes with human faces.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  Gotcha, gotcha.

• 56:39Josh Clark?

  And they're kind of trapped in this, what you could definitely call like a, um, a, a, a purposeless existence in this building. It's kind of a dark building.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Interesting. So, he does finally achieve really great fame later in his life.

• 56:57Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:58Speaker 03

  Uh, like you said, he was holding exhibitions in the Netherlands and a little bit in Europe. Uh, but he did one in Belgium in 1950 that led to, uh, an article in The Studio, which was a art magazine. And that captured the attention of a journalist who wrote about him in Time and Life magazines, which definitely propped him up a little bit.

• 57:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, oh yeah.

• 57:19Speaker 03

  Uh, then that led to a larger exhibition at the International Mathematical Congress in 54. Uh, flash forward to 66, he was featured in, um, Mathematical Games column in Scientific American by Martin Gardner.

• 57:35Josh Clark?

  Math magician.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  I guarantee it, that's a thing. Um, and that increased his, and this was 66, so it was kind of the perfect timing with the hippies and the drugs and the counterculture.

• 57:47Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 57:48Speaker 03

  And I guess, uh, who was it? Graham Nash?

• 57:50Josh Clark?

  Graham Nash. Mick Jagger sent him a fan letter.

• 57:53Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 57:53Josh Clark?

  And made the mistake of calling him by his first name.

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 57:56Josh Clark?

  Which Escher did not appreciate. Um, Stanley Kubrick tried to recruit him to make 2001: A Space Odyssey a fourth dimensional film.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  Huh.

• 58:05Josh Clark?

  Uh, yeah, there's this interesting article called "The Impossible World of M.C. Escher" that Stephen Poole wrote in The Guardian that has a lot of that stuff in it. But he was, he was kind of like, "No, I'm good over here with my mathematician friends."

• 58:17Speaker 03

  Well, once he was featured in, uh, Scientific American, that led to... The big daddy of them all. He got featured in Rolling Stone. And then after that, it was, it was all over. He was huge.

• 58:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Dorm room huge.

• 58:30Speaker 03

  Uh, 448 works.

• 58:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 58:32Speaker 03

  Uh, then this doesn't count all the sketches and drafts. These are like the actual final works.

• 58:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 58:38Speaker 03

  And like we said earlier, he died in 1972 of cancer at the age of 73. And I tried to find more about his family, but there's not a lot out there, like his sons and whether or not his, I mean, I guess his grandkids would be contemporaries of ours.

• 58:54Josh Clark?

  Yep. I don't know. Like he was born in 1899.

• 58:59Speaker 03

  Well.

• 58:59Josh Clark?

  Great grandkids, maybe.

• 59:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay. I guess if his kids were born in the 1920s, yeah, contemporaries of our parents, maybe.

• 59:07Josh Clark?

  Sure. The oldsters.

• 59:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:09Josh Clark?

  Boomers.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  Hey, boomer.

• 59:11Josh Clark?

  Okay, boomer.

• 59:12Speaker 03

  Okay. Hey, boomer. I can't even get that right.

• 59:15Josh Clark?

  In that, that Journey to Infinity movie, apparently all three of his children appear in it.

• 59:20Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 59:21Josh Clark?

  So if you want to know more about them, go watch that.

• 59:24Speaker 03

  I saw, uh, one picture of him where he looked a lot like our old colleague, John Fuller, when John had a beard.

• 59:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, he did, didn't he?

• 59:31Speaker 03

  Looked a little bit like him.

• 59:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It's not expecting that.

• 59:34Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 59:35Josh Clark?

  So there's M.C. Escher.

• 59:36Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 59:37Josh Clark?

  Speaking of not expecting that, uh, Bikini Babe on Corvette.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 59:43Josh Clark?

  And Hooters airline made appearances in the M.C. Escher one, I just want to point out. Uh, if you want to know more about any of those things, go onto the internet and start searching. And, uh, since I said that, it's time for listener mail.

• 59:59Speaker 03

  Uh, hey, guys. I've been listening to your show since 2011. I even seen you, uh, I've even seen you on your first amazing show in Chicago and had to wait a whole year to hear that on the podcast.

• 1:00:10Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  Uh, that's how it works.

• 1:00:12Josh Clark?

  Sure. Sorry. It's not even guaranteed that it's gonna be the show you saw.

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of podcasts put out just tons and tons of live shows. We don't do that.

• 1:00:24Josh Clark?

  No.

• 1:00:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I honestly think the live shows are a little better in person. I don't think they make, as a fan of other podcasts, I don't think they make for the best just regular content.

• 1:00:33Josh Clark?

  I think most people think that.

• 1:00:35Speaker 03

  But we just, so that's why we only put out the one.

• 1:00:37Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  Uh, so back to the letter. This show is so great, I would even save high-interest episodes for my son to listen to over the years.

• 1:00:44Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 1:00:46Speaker 03

  You are one of the few people that can keep his attention. I never thought I would write, but as a science teacher, you said something recently that is so true. Some of the best science websites are children's science websites.

• 1:00:56Josh Clark?

  Man.

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  Or if a definition is too difficult, I always tell people to look up a child's definition for that word. Really good tip, guys. Thanks for sharing that, and thanks for all your work. And now I will have to figure out what to do now that I am finally caught up. Keep up the great work, and that is from Jenny with an I.

• 1:01:14Josh Clark?

  Thanks, Jenny with an I. Hopefully you dot the I with a heart. Maybe with a little reflection on the side of the heart. You remember that one?

• 1:01:20Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:01:21Josh Clark?

  Two curved lines topped and, I guess, bottomed with a straight line?

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  I think I know what you're talking about.

• 1:01:27Josh Clark?

  Here, I'll show you.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Oh, boy. Since we just, oh. Oh, sure.

• 1:01:35Josh Clark?

  That.

• 1:01:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:36Josh Clark?

  It almost looks like a bent Roman numeral two.

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  Inside the heart.

• 1:01:41Josh Clark?

  That's a, that's the reflection of light. That's where the light's coming from.

• 1:01:45Speaker 03

  It's beautiful, thank you.

• 1:01:46Josh Clark?

  It's an Escher reference.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  I'll treasure that.

• 1:01:48Josh Clark?

  Uh, you're welcome, Chuck. I wasn't gonna give it to you, but now I have to.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Just sign it first.

• 1:01:53Josh Clark?

  Uh, if you want to get in touch with us, you can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com and look for our social links there. And you can also send us an email like Jenny with an I did. You can send it to [email protected].

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 1:02:26Josh Clark?

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• 1:02:57Speaker 07

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• 1:03:40Speaker 07

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• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.