Selects: Iran-Contra Affair: Shady in the 80s, Part 1

When Ronald Reagan was president, America got involved in some deeply shady stuff, not the least of which was the Iran-Contra scandal – a convoluted operation that managed to combine an illegal covert war in Nicaragua with secretly selling arms to Iran. Learn all about it with Josh and Chuck in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:17Josh Clark?

  Introducing Voices of Vivgard. Vivgard is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F Cam. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, guys. It's me, Josh. And for this week's select, I've chosen our 2019 episode

• 1:57Josh Clark?

  on the Iran-Contra affair. We called it Shady in the 80s for two good reasons. One, it took place in the 80s. And two, it was probably the shadiest thing the US government has ever done. And that's really saying something. Anyway, if you like your Stuff You Should Know episodes eye popping, then prepare for this one.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:32Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry over there, eating with chopsticks, as a matter of fact.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  You know, when Jerry pulls out the chopsticks.

• 2:43Josh Clark?

  It's time to record.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah. She's got, she's got Facebook open and she's sitting there with her chopsticks. So it's, we're recording now.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Jerry's been fork free since 83.

• 2:54Josh Clark?

  Speaking of 83.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Your shirt?

• 2:58Josh Clark?

  I guess it's kind of 83-ish.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Looks very Thomas Magnum.

• 3:01Josh Clark?

  It does, Chuck. It does. Not just the shirt, the whole outfit. Look at the jeans, the shoes.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  You got the Ferrari outback?

• 3:09Josh Clark?

  Thank you for noticing, man. I look like a chubby Thomas Magnum.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  It's funny because I just finished Stranger Things 3 and saw that there was a, have you seen it yet? Are you into that?

• 3:22Josh Clark?

  No, I liked the first season. I never really got back into it after that. No, no offense to anybody.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Sure. The, the main, the sheriff guy.

• 3:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Hopper wears a shirt, kind of like that, through most of the season.

• 3:34Josh Clark?

  Is that right?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  And so someone did a cut of like a Magnum P I intro and had him running around and shooting things and jumping into cars, all set to the Magnum thing.

• 3:44Josh Clark?

  Very cool.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  And it really fits. All you gotta do is throw that song.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  With the guy with a shirt like that, and it's Magnum.

• 3:51Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Of course, he has the mustache, too.

• 3:53Josh Clark?

  Well, I'm a mustacheless chubby Magnum.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  You should wear a mustache. That'd look interesting.

• 3:58Josh Clark?

  I don't know. I do solve a lot of mysteries, though.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Nothing can change a look like mustaches.

• 4:03Josh Clark?

  Oh, dude.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Instantaneously.

• 4:06Josh Clark?

  Right. Especially a fake mustache, because you just put it on and bam, you're done.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 4:11Josh Clark?

  So I tried, I'm going to go back to the 83 segue.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're here. Right. We're right in the middle of the 80s.

• 4:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like, this was super 80s. This is as 80s as it gets.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:22Josh Clark?

  Iran-Contra affair. That's what we're talking about. Some people call it Iran Gate. I poo-poo that name.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Iran-Contra.

• 4:28Josh Clark?

  Sure. I remember this going on at the time.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Me, too.

• 4:33Josh Clark?

  I remember watching Oliver North testify.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Me, too.

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  And my sister was like, he's so dreamy. Look at how much poise he has.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  He had his dress greens on.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  All those medals.

• 4:44Josh Clark?

  Had his Boy Scout three fingers up, like swearing. I really think he did do that.

• 4:50Josh Clark?

  But even as an adult, like, everything I knew about Iran-Contra.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Was wrong.

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  Until researching this, it was just the glossiest version.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I was like 10 and 11, so you were like seven and eight.

• 5:04Josh Clark?

  Sure, sure. But I mean, like, still, over time, as you age, you're like, oh, that's what was going on, or, oh, I understand that. Even as an adult, my conception of it was not very thorough at all. And as I dug into it, I'm like, this is one of the shadiest things America's ever done. Ever.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it was really great to do this. And like, now I know it. Now I have a full understanding of what happened. And if it ever comes up at a party.

• 5:31Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  And people are like, oh, what was that all about, anyway? I'm gonna be like, wow.

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  Please sit down for an hour.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  And I'll just pull out my smartphone and play our episode.

• 5:39Josh Clark?

  Right. Actually, maybe an hour and a half. We'll see how this goes.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. By the way, everyone, this is a two-parter.

• 5:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, buckle up.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  And so this is part one. I figured we'd start with the beginning.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  I think that's a really good idea.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  That reminds me of my friend in college watched the movie, oh, which one was it?

• 5:58Josh Clark?

  Weekend at Bernie's.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Shortcuts.

• 5:59Josh Clark?

  Weekend at Bernie's 2.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  It was a movie that was on two video cassettes.

• 6:03Josh Clark?

  What?

• 6:03Speaker 02

  It was so long, you know, they had to split them up. Was it Magnolia?

• 6:07Josh Clark?

  A Bridge Too Far.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  I can't remember. My friend in college, very, very famously among our friends, watched the second tape first and then watched the first tape second and didn't really put it together. She was just like, I thought it was a little confusing.

• 6:20Josh Clark?

  Really? Oh, so it was accidental?

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:22Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  And then she was like, and then she showed up in the, in the second part. And I was like, she's already dead. She was kind of country. This is kind of funny.

• 6:32Josh Clark?

  This movie's one of them anachronisms.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:35Josh Clark?

  Well, this is not an anachronism because we're going to be normal, smart, sane people and start at the beginning.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:41Josh Clark?

  And there's really no better place to start than the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980. Ronald Reagan, if you weren't familiar with him already, when he was president, he had already been governor of California. But even before that, he had a pretty extensive career in Hollywood.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:56Josh Clark?

  And while he was a pretty big star in Hollywood, at least B-plus list, if not A-list actor.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, he was a medium-sized star.

• 7:06Josh Clark?

  Sure. But definitely way more famous as president than he ever was as a movie star.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 7:11Josh Clark?

  He learned to detest communism.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:16Josh Clark?

  And at the time, communism was a really big thing in Hollywood. Like, it was very fashionable, especially among the intellectuals of Hollywood.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:26Josh Clark?

  And he learned to hate it. So much so that by the time he got to be president, he had this idea that there was, it was impossible for capitalist democracy and communism to coexist, even peacefully on earth. You couldn't have both. You had to have one or the other. And by God, Ronald Reagan was going to see to it that the one that we had was a capitalist democracy.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. He wanted to stamp out communism wherever it reared its head. And it was rearing its head close to home, which we'll see here in a second, but all over the world.

• 8:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, for sure. It was called the Reagan.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, bits and pieces of it were.

• 8:05Josh Clark?

  Right. And he came up with the Reagan Doctrine. And the Reagan Doctrine was, we will aid any, any opposition to communism wherever it sprouts. Like, if you're, if you're fighting against a communist revolution, we'll support your country. If you're a rebel fighting against a leftist communist government, we'll help you overthrow. That's the Reagan Doctrine.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, via money, via arms, via training, via covert operations that we carried out ourselves.

• 8:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  There were all kinds of ways that we could and did help stem the flow of communism.

• 8:42Josh Clark?

  Yep. So there was, as you were saying, there was a place pretty close to home where communism had sprouted up. And that was Nicaragua, down in Central America. And in Central America in the 30s, the Sandinista government had taken power and had held on to power well into the 70s and by this time, the early 80s. And it drove Ronald Reagan nuts that there was a communist power right there that was being supported by the Soviet Union through Cuba, ostensibly. I've never gotten the impression that this was ever conclusively proven. They definitely got support from Cuba. But whether it was the Soviet Union who was really calling the shots in Nicaragua or not, I don't know.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think, you know, to go even further back and draw the lines a little even more clearer, the Sandinistans were named for Augusto Sandino, who led the nationalist rebellion against, what? The US occupation of Central America.

• 9:41Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's where it started, huh?

• 9:42Speaker 02

  That's where it all started. And from 19, you know, the US occupied, this is all part of the Banana Wars.

• 9:47Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  So we occupied Nicaragua from 1912 to 1933 for a lot of reasons. But one was like, hey, no one's going to build a canal here unless it's us.

• 9:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  That was sort of one of the main reasons. And that all ceased in 1933 with Roosevelt's Good Neighbor Policy, which is basically like, we're going to pull out of Nicaragua.

• 10:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:08Josh Clark?

  Okay. So.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  But we had our fingers all over Central America.

• 10:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  For many, many, many years. And that's why when people forget or choose not to remember, when people flee horrible situations in Central America to come to the United States now, like, kind of where all these horrible situations started years and years ago.

• 10:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Because of things that we did.

• 10:28Josh Clark?

  Right. Well, when, when Reagan became president, intervening in Nicaragua, Nick, man, I'm going to have a hard time if I can't say Nicaragua. Intervening in Nicaragua became like a, a. Like first and foremost priority for them.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 10:46Josh Clark?

  Almost immediately, they started funding the Contras. The Contra rebels are the groups who were fighting against the Sandinista government. They were right wing groups. And they were funding them, they were training them, like you were saying. And they were doing all this secretly. There was an operation called Operation Black Eagle.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  Man, that one.

• 11:05Josh Clark?

  That was something else.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:07Josh Clark?

  So, we were already funding them and at the time, Congress was on board. And Congress was on board, especially at first, because the Republicans controlled the House. Well, you know how when somebody comes in and just steamrolls over the other party, usually in a presidential election?

• 11:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:22Josh Clark?

  Very frequently, there's, in the midterms, the congressional midterms, there's like a backlash against that.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a House flip.

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  Believe it or not, that happened to Ronald Reagan in 1982.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:32Josh Clark?

  And the House did flip. They flipped over to the Democrats. And that Democrat controlled House, combined with a Newsweek cover story that came out, kind of turned the tide against Reagan's policy on helping out in Nicaragua.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was a CIA director named William Casey, who was, he was kind of telling Congress what they needed to hear here and there. You have been here vague briefings. That was probably a generous way to say it. Sometimes Casey would send another guy, though, named Dwayne Dewey Claridge. And this is where things really went south, because Claridge did not present well to Congress. And anytime Congress feels like they're being subverted, or ignored, or like, kept out of the loop, or like, not able to offer their checks and balances on the executive branch, they really get mad.

• 12:29Josh Clark?

  They do.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Like, we're seeing that today. This is like, history just repeats itself over and over again.

• 12:33Josh Clark?

  Exactly, yeah. And in this particular case, the place where, where the administration, the Reagan administration and Congress just started butting heads over Nicaragua, it was Dwayne Claridge.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:46Josh Clark?

  You know, he just, that's how poor a job he did. But, in his defense, he was coming from a place where, he was a CIA man through and through. And this is less than 10 years after Congress had just basically rooted out the CIA, held public hearings.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:01Josh Clark?

  That's when, like, the MKUltra came out, and the fact that they'd been dosing unsuspecting Americans with LSD.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so in his defense, he was mad because they uncovered all the awful things that he'd been doing.

• 13:14Josh Clark?

  Right, right. True compassion, Chuck.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  That's true compassion. So, Congress is starting to get a little unhappy with this. And there was one congressman in particular named Edward Boland, I believe. And he was from Massachusetts. And he said, hey, I just read about this cover story in Newsweek. It has a title, "America's Secret War: Nicaragua." Seems like they should have flip-flopped that, you know? Nicaragua: America's Secret War.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Hmm, I think they both had the same end goal.

• 13:48Josh Clark?

  That's fine, right.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  But he was like, wait, why am I reading about this in a magazine?

• 13:53Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  And I'm a member of Congress.

• 13:55Josh Clark?

  Right. Because at this time, like, Congress is like, well, okay, we think we're just kind of funding things, we're maybe helping out a little bit. This Newsweek magazine was like, no, no, no, it's way more than that.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:07Josh Clark?

  Like, there is way more American involvement down in Nicaragua than you've been led to believe, Congress.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Like, actual covert CIA ops, like, blowing up bridges, and blowing up buildings, and, you know, direct saboteur type ops.

• 14:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, not just, here's some arms.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:25Josh Clark?

  And then, you know, you close this one eye, but leave this eye open when you're shooting. There was way more involved than that.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Or we could just do the shooting.

• 14:34Josh Clark?

  Basically, yeah.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  That might make it easier.

• 14:35Josh Clark?

  Here, just let me do it. So, Congress, in the guise of Edward Boland, said, nope, we're not doing that. And they passed the Boland Amendment, which basically said, if you cannot use CIA funds or Defense Department funds to aid the Contras in Nicaragua, it's done. Good night.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 14:57Josh Clark?

  And Congress went to sleep.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  And so, that should have been the, that's the end of it, right? Because Congress passed a, what, was it a law? No, passed an amendment.

• 15:04Josh Clark?

  An act.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  An act.

• 15:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  And so, everyone just stopped, right?

• 15:07Josh Clark?

  That's how it works.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  All right. What's part two going to be about?

• 15:10Josh Clark?

  We're just going to sit here quietly.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  So, this did not stop anything. Here's what happened in 1983. The CIA had this one operation where they went into the commercial shipping harbors of Nicaragua. Oh, boy.

• 15:26Josh Clark?

  I know, it's contagious.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  I said it right in my head, all morning. Nicaragua.

• 15:31Josh Clark?

  There you go.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  And they put mines there, you know? I was about to say land mines, but they were sea mines.

• 15:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, mines.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Floating mines.

• 15:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  And the idea here was, we're going to plant these mines, that we're going to whip up our own press releases for the Contras, where they take credit for it. Like, we don't even trust them to write a good press release.

• 15:50Josh Clark?

  Right, the CIA wrote the press release for them.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  So, where the Contras are saying that they did it, and the overall effect it's going to have is, they're not going to be able to ship arms via the seaport at least, into Nicaragua.

• 16:02Josh Clark?

  Plus, it also makes the Contras look way more together.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 16:06Josh Clark?

  And with it than they actually were.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Right, like, all we need to do is give them some money, and they got it covered.

• 16:10Josh Clark?

  Right, so the CIA does this, and they're thinking, okay, so, shipping in the Nicaraguan harbors is going to stop. It does not stop.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  No.

• 16:20Josh Clark?

  As a matter of fact, there was damage, so they used little firecracker mines, which make a big blast and a lot of water everywhere. But if it's a big ship, it's not going to hurt the ship. Well, it sunk a lot of small fishing vessels.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:31Josh Clark?

  But it also damaged ships from the Netherlands, Great Britain.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Oops.

• 16:35Josh Clark?

  Japan.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:36Josh Clark?

  And the USSR, commercial ships. So, the Wall Street Journal broke this story, and said, hey, you guys, Congress, you remember how you passed this amendment saying, there could be no CIA involvement in Nicaragua? Well, they mined the harbor of the sovereign nation, and it blew up a bunch of other countries' ships.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  And Congress, once again, was like, man, you keep doing secret things behind our back.

• 17:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  That really makes us mad.

• 17:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 17:05Josh Clark?

  All right, let's take a break.

• 17:21Josh Clark?

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• 18:24Josh Clark?

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• 19:11Josh Clark?

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• 19:30Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 19:32Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T, and he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 19:51Speaker 03

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 19:59Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager, Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

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• 20:22Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love.

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• 20:45Josh Clark?

  Okay, let's keep going. So what does Congress do? They're like, alright.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  They're mad.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  We passed one Boland amendment, which I don't think we said, Chuck. That first Boland amendment was passed 411 to 0.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:57Josh Clark?

  Unanimously saying, "Do not mess around in Nicaragua anymore."

• 21:01Speaker 02

  That's when you know Congress is mad.

• 21:02Josh Clark?

  Right. When they unanimously agree on something. And then the Wall Street Journal breaks the story about the harbor mining long after the Boland amendment was passed. And now Congress is even madder.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Right. So they passed two more amendments, Boland amendments. Because there were loopholes, basically, that allowed, you know, the US to sort of do these things semi-legally. So it was like, well, here's a loophole, so it wasn't really fully illegal that we did this stuff.

• 21:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah. That's like the Reagan administration's way.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Alright. They closed these loopholes. And now this was like, it was pretty ironclad. I don't know about ironclad, but it was pretty tight amendment-wise.

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  At the very least, Congress walked away thinking, "It's done. It's settled. We made ourselves quite clear."

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:50Josh Clark?

  Ronald Reagan signed these into law.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, he didn't veto them.

• 21:54Josh Clark?

  Nope. He accepted these things. I think he even said like, "Yeah, this is a good idea. Great way to go, Congress," and signed it. I'm not going to do a Reagan impression. But, um, so Congress thought that the matter was settled. But it wasn't settled. Like, this is how laser-focused Reagan was on overthrowing the Sandinista government down in Nicaragua. He just took a CIA operation and took it even further underground than it had been before, basically. He was like, "Okay, if you guys are gonna outlaw this stuff, we're just gonna have to get even more illegal."

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there were a couple of factions here at work. One was this continued operation underground, deep, deep underground now. And then there was Reagan's public, like, he still wanted to get real money from Congress. So he didn't have to do this stuff. So he kept up this public PR campaign, beating this drum about communism at our doorstep. He said that the Contras were the moral equals of our founding fathers.

• 22:58Josh Clark?

  That's a big one to pull out.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Like, that's a direct quote. Of our founding fathers. And started in with the, and again, you see this stuff kind of repeating itself. The campaign of fear, where he basically said, "Unless we do something tough here, then there will be a tidal wave of feet people."

• 23:18Josh Clark?

  I don't even know what that means, but that just seems super offensive.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  Swarming into our country. He meant, you know, refugees.

• 23:24Josh Clark?

  Feet people.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Seeking a safe haven.

• 23:26Josh Clark?

  It was one word even, I think.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  One word. It's funny, because I looked up feet people, and that's a company that, like, I think makes shoelaces.

• 23:33Josh Clark?

  And they're like, "Yeah, say it again. Say "dot com."

• 23:39Speaker 02

  So this is all going on, and on the down-low, all the operations are going on. And on the public-facing side, Reagan's just continuing this PR push.

• 23:49Josh Clark?

  Right. Basically saying, like, "Congress, look at these heartless old, you know, gasbags, turning off the funding to these founding father, moral equivalent to our founding fathers. Go vote these guys out of office and vote in some people who will turn the funding back on."

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and while the Contras may have been fighting communism, they were doing so through means that the founding fathers probably would not have approved of, like murder and torture and rape and mutilation, kidnapping, and not, you know, I mean, it wasn't so widespread that it was like, that's all they were doing. But they would resort to those tactics.

• 24:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  And that's not founding father stuff.

• 24:27Josh Clark?

  No, it's definitely not. Not as far as I've ever learned.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so.

• 24:30Josh Clark?

  And I mean, it's had a few hundred, couple hundred years to come out.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:34Josh Clark?

  And it still hasn't. So, yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  I read some of the stuff, too. Like, some of the affidavits were like, just brutal.

• 24:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, dude. The war down in Nicaragua, the civil war.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:45Josh Clark?

  That the US basically fomented and supported. It went on for a decade. Like, it was, it went on into the 90s. And it was like, not just like countrymen against countrymen. Like, civilians were getting murdered by the scores.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:00Josh Clark?

  And just, they would get kidnapped and tortured and killed. And like, it was a really brutal time in Nicaragua. And the Reagan administration's right in the middle of this, like, providing as much aid as they can to one side.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it was, one of the big problems was that the Contras, back then, were a bunch of different factions, and they didn't answer to a single leader. And the one thing I got out of the affidavits, one of which this woman described them taking her children and her finding their mutilated bodies the next day. It was brutal. One of the leaders said that there's no disciplinary system at all within the Contra groups.

• 25:38Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, there's no accountability. So you could do anything you wanted, and there's no discipline set up. So it was just, they were fractured, and no one, you know, was talking to each other. And it was just a big mess.

• 25:52Josh Clark?

  Right. But Reagan was doing his best to paint everything in black and white.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:57Josh Clark?

  Contra's good, Sandinista's bad. So anything the Contras did was good, and stuff that couldn't be painted as good would just be denied or glossed over, not reported on.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 26:07Josh Clark?

  So while Reagan's out running around trying to drum up public support for the Contras, and thus congressional aid being turned back on.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  And also saying, "Don't do drugs."

• 26:18Josh Clark?

  He, yeah, that was a big one.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Even though we're shipping a lot of drugs back and forth.

• 26:21Josh Clark?

  It's awfully rich, now that you know all that stuff, you know?

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:25Josh Clark?

  He's also secretly supporting them, going in flagrant violation of what Congress has said, that America can do. He tells his people, he wants the Contra movement to be kept alive, body and soul, is how he put it. Which, and he basically said, "Do it." This is what history has told us, is that Reagan basically said, "Keep the Contra movement alive, body and soul. I'm gonna go work on Congress. I'm putting my hands over my ears from now on." Whether that's true or not, we will probably never know.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Right, because it's all been shredded.

• 26:58Josh Clark?

  As far as the history books is concerned, that's what happened.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Right. So here's what they did. They said the CIA has a bad rap for a lot of reasons, and Congress is not super friendly with them.

• 27:11Josh Clark?

  Well, they expressly forbade the CIA from operating there.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Right. So he said, "Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna use the National Security Council." And the CIA chief, William Casey, he's around. He's gonna just like advise here and there. And William Casey was like, "Oh, no, I really gotta be involved, because this is really good stuff."

• 27:29Josh Clark?

  They're like, "No, no, no, we're talking like officially here." He's like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, sure."

• 27:33Speaker 02

  So at first, a national security advisor was Robert McFarlane. And then he was succeeded by John Poindexter. Very important, you remember that name. And then Casey's still there, like you said, doing his thing on the down-low, unofficially.

• 27:47Josh Clark?

  Right. I think even in some cases, kind of stepping on toes or whatever. He was like an additional boss to the main guy. The guy everybody's heard of, the guy whose mind, or whose name jumps to mind when you hear about this. Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Oliver North.

• 28:04Josh Clark?

  And in retrospect, especially if you went, if you lived through the Iran-Contra hearings and you're familiar with Oliver North, like, you would guess that when Oliver North was tapped to head up this extraordinarily difficult, secret operation, to go against Congress and keep the Contra movement alive and kicking, that Oliver North was a bad, A covert operator to the ninth degree, right? That is not at all correct.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  No. Career Marine, very highly decorated Marine. Served in Vietnam, won Silver Stars and Purple Hearts. Devout Catholic, and by all accounts, a stand-up guy. And to many, many Americans, he is still like a top-notch American hero.

• 28:55Josh Clark?

  Sure. Well, he was like the president of NRA until, I think, recently. I think there's some scandal that just happened where

• 29:01Speaker 02

  There was.

• 29:01Josh Clark?

  It came out that he like tried to depose Wayne LaPierre or something like that?

• 29:06Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 29:07Josh Clark?

  I don't either. But even beyond that, like, even beyond whether he's a stand-up guy or not as far as, you know, patriotism is concerned.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 29:15Josh Clark?

  Just job experience, he had like none. He had no experience whatsoever, as far as I could ever tell, in covert operations.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  He did a pretty good job for a while, though.

• 29:25Josh Clark?

  He did an amazing job. He was basically the, the White House's operations and intel arm of the shadiest stuff it was doing. Stuff that was so shady, the CIA was even kept in the dark about it. That's how shady the stuff Oliver North was doing, and he had no experience. He's learning as he went. Just making it up as he went along. And he really did do a pretty good job of it, if you look at it from that angle.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  Just as far as like getting her done?

• 29:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  So what they basically decided was, alright, if we can't get the real taxpayer money and like official funds, we'll just go and raise funds on the side in secret through business people that, you know, we can have these big parties and dinners and say, hey, listen, communism is knocking at our door. This wouldn't be good for America. It wouldn't be good for your company.

• 30:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  And why don't you give us some money? Open up the checkbook.

• 30:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Reagan's here. You want a photo?

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, sometimes he would show up to these secret fundraisers.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  And it was, it was, it really worked. Like, they raised a ton of money from the business elite of America to stop the Sandinistans in Nicaragua.

• 30:35Josh Clark?

  So they actually, forget this, they founded, they had two private citizens found a nonprofit, the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. Its sole purpose was to get these illicit funds to send to the Contras, which means that the people who are donating to the president's illegal, secret proxy war could write their donations off on their taxes.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 30:59Josh Clark?

  It's just mind-boggling.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  I know.

• 31:02Josh Clark?

  Hilarious in some senses.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they were not the most stand-up nonprofit, because as you point out, they raised $6.3 million through that organization during 85, 86, about 3.3 million, made it to the Contras. And so that means a 52% program expense rate.

• 31:21Josh Clark?

  That's pretty bad.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:23Josh Clark?

  It's not good at all.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Now, $3 million it took supposedly to run, to run that nonprofit.

• 31:28Josh Clark?

  Those fundraising breakfasts for a year.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Pretty bad.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Good omelets, though.

• 31:33Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, oh, yeah, the best.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Top-notch.

• 31:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So from this, this idea, like, okay, this is, this is probably kind of legal. We're just fundraising.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:42Josh Clark?

  We're not giving any American taxpayer funds. We're just getting other people to donate. Private citizens. Saudi Arabia was a big one.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  And it was all to stop communism. So like, I think their intentions were that.

• 31:54Josh Clark?

  Oh, definitely.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Theirs were.

• 31:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And, but there was this definite end justifies the means kind of thing.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 32:01Josh Clark?

  And, and really, isn't the president really the most powerful person in the world?

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:05Josh Clark?

  Can Congress really tell the president what to do as far as foreign policy goes? Nah.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:10Josh Clark?

  That was kind of the idea, I think. So Saudi Arabia donated a bunch of money. There's all these private citizens donating money. And here's the thing. The Contras found themselves flush with cash.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, many millions of dollars.

• 32:24Josh Clark?

  Over just two years, Saudi Arabia alone donated 32 million to the Contras.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:30Josh Clark?

  This is a couple of loosely affiliated factions fighting in two spots of Nicaragua that suddenly have 30-plus million dollars at their disposal.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:41Josh Clark?

  The problem is, they don't have the contacts in the international arms trade to buy arms with this money. They sent a bunch of money and they're like, who wants this?

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:50Josh Clark?

  And they were getting crickets in return.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Who's got some bombs.

• 32:53Josh Clark?

  Right. You know, the cartoonish black kind, the round ones that are shiny?

• 32:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  It would take 15 of those.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  This is before Craigslist, too.

• 33:00Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  So their only, their only avenue was to go back to the Americans and Oliver North. And he began working with a guy named Richard Secord. He was a retired, forced-retired, we'll get into that in a minute, Air Force Major General. And he had a lot of experience. There was this group of dudes in the 1970s and 80s that were former CIA, or current CIA, former CIA, former and current American military, who were all, had their fingers in the illegal arms trade.

• 33:34Josh Clark?

  Right. So exactly what you can imagine a Hollywood writer would come up with.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:41Josh Clark?

  This is the real-life version of it.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 33:44Josh Clark?

  So they would, they would, you could farm out assassinations to them. They could rustle up mercenaries. They could carry out sabotage operations. They could find whatever gun, bomb, anything you needed.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  You want some money laundered? Done.

• 33:59Josh Clark?

  Right. Anything that is extraordinarily illegal and deals in death, like, these guys could get their hands on.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  You want some poison? Done.

• 34:06Josh Clark?

  Sure. A bomb disguised as a briefcase? We got it, buddy.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:11Josh Clark?

  And they would, here's the other thing, too. They were an illegal black market arms ring. But they were also even more illegal in that they would sell to whoever. Whether you were an enemy or a friend to America, it didn't matter. These guys were operating well above any sort of national loyalty or anything like that.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was about making money.

• 34:29Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Like, many millions of dollars. Yeah, you're right. So especially a guy like Secord, he wasn't, he was in it to make dough.

• 34:37Josh Clark?

  Definitely.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Whereas an Oliver North was seemingly in it to stop the, you know, communism.

• 34:42Josh Clark?

  Right. So that's, that's an important point. But the fact that they, that they contract with Secord to kind of swoop in and help hook the Contras up with arms means that the Reagan administration is contracting with this extraordinarily illegal black market arms ring.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of which, they took down some of these dudes over the years. One of them, one of the founders of this group was a CIA op named Edwin Wilson. He was sentenced, he served 22 years, 12 of which were in solitary confinement, but was sentenced to 52 years for illegally arming Libya with 10,000 machine guns and 20 tons of C4.

• 35:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  That he hid in barrels of mud and flew on a chartered jet to Libya.

• 35:28Josh Clark?

  Right, himself.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  It's like Hollywood stuff.

• 35:30Josh Clark?

  I know, it really is. Like, this really happened.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 35:33Josh Clark?

  And it wasn't just Libya. This guy was funding or outfitting Muammar Gaddafi.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:38Josh Clark?

  Idi Amin was another customer. Like, whoever, if you need to keep a stranglehold on power in your country, we're the people to help you do that.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. And when I teased earlier about Richard Secord being forced into retirement, that was due to his connection with, with Edwin Wilson.

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  So he was forced to retire from the Air Force. They couldn't pin anything on him, but there was enough of a connection there where he had to step down.

• 36:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah. They're like, you can do this the hard way or the easy way. We're going to give you the option. And he took the easy way.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  And then he went on to make a lot of money.

• 36:08Josh Clark?

  Right. He was like, oh, okay, well, I'll just do the, the arms dealing thing full-time now.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:12Josh Clark?

  And he, he did. So when they brought him in, at first, Secord was basically acting as like a very laissez-faire intermediary. He was basically the guy who, on behalf of Oliver North, was like, yeah, I can introduce the Contras to my friends in the arms ring.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. In Canada, of all places.

• 36:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He introduced the Contras to some Canadian arms dealers. So now the setup was this.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  The friendliest arms dealers.

• 36:36Josh Clark?

  Right. They're like, oh, these bullets will really put a hole in somebody, eh?

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, sorry. I meant to include rocket launchers on that order. Sorry, sorry.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  That's pretty good. So Secord was just there to make some introductions, make sure things went smoothly. And then it was up to the Contras to use these funds that were coming in from other people and to buy weapons from the Canadians. Easy peasy, right? You'd think, okay, that's fine. That's done. It still has like a slight veneer of arms-length legality as far as America's concerned.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we should mention, too, that he, to do this, he, he set up a shell company, the Stanford Technology Trading Group, with an Iranian-American businessman named Albert Hakim, who knew how to get around certain official procedures and stuff like that. He's another guy who could get things done.

• 37:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  So he set up Swiss bank accounts, untraceable accounts, because that's what you do.

• 37:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  To run the funds through. And this became known as the enterprise.

• 37:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they're Stanford Technology Trading Company, or, or, Group, sorry.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Trading Group, AKA the enterprise.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was like, everybody called it that, because they're like, this sounds way cooler, the enterprise. Right?

• 37:50Speaker 02

  All right. But like you were alluding to, you'd think it would have been going great. But the Contras in the North, who was the, the FDN, they were the largest by far, the largest group.

• 38:01Josh Clark?

  They were the better organized, from what I understand.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were doing a pretty good job. But in the South, they were not doing a very good job.

• 38:08Josh Clark?

  No, somehow, they were like, we don't have the arms and equipment. They're like, what are you talking about? You have the same amount of money. You have the same contacts.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:15Josh Clark?

  Just buy the weapons. And they're like, oh, no, no. So Oliver North is like, okay, all right, here's what we're gonna do. He called the leaders of the FDN and the FSL into Miami to meet with them. And he said, here's, here's how it's gonna be from now on.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:30Josh Clark?

  Any veneer of legality is going out the window. From now on, I'd like you to meet your new boss, Richard Secord.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:38Josh Clark?

  Not only is he going to make sure you have arms, he's going to take the funneled money himself, buy the arms himself, and then he's going to have it kicked out of a plane over your camps.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:51Josh Clark?

  So now America is directly involved in supporting and arming and training the Contra rebels in the North and the South of Nicaragua. And if there was any, again, if there's any kind of legality, it's totally gone at this point.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And in the meantime, Secord and Hakim were marking up their stuff as much as like 300%.

• 39:14Josh Clark?

  Dude, they made a lot of money off of this.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, they made a ton.

• 39:18Josh Clark?

  But they put it, they put a lot back into the enterprise. I mean, they took this job very seriously.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. It was a company.

• 39:23Josh Clark?

  Like, if you are, if you were Oliver North, you were quite happy with the work you were getting from Richard Secord and Albert Hakim. Because the shipments went out on time. They got everything they needed. They had so much money, they had it left over. But they were also investing it into the enterprise. They bought planes. They rented airstrips. They hired employees.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:43Josh Clark?

  They contracted with other, like, airlines, like a CIA front. I can't remember the name of it right now. But they were, they were doing the work, for sure.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Great healthcare.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah. The best benefits. All of the, all of the Contras had really nice teeth.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:57Josh Clark?

  After Richard Secord took over.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Work from home.

• 40:00Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  All right. So let's take another break here. And we'll come back and bring it home for part one with a little bit about the propaganda machine that was set up.

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• 40:24Josh Clark?

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• 42:14Josh Clark?

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• 42:38Josh Clark?

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• 43:07Josh Clark?

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• 43:43Josh Clark?

  All right, Chuck. So things are in full swing. America is unknowingly totally hooking up the Contras. They're basically running this proxy war that the Contras are fighting against the Sandinista government.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:57Josh Clark?

  The enterprise is working full bore. And if it couldn't get any more illegal, if you thought it couldn't get any more illegal, prepare to just be knocked right over.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so here on the home front, it was decided that there needed to be a pretty massive and dense propaganda campaign. And we're not talking about Reagan just going on the news, talking about communism being at our doorstep. We're talking about a real deal propaganda campaign. And they even set up an office, the Office of Public Diplomacy for Latin America and the Caribbean, that was founded and managed by a Cuban-American named Otto Reich.

• 44:37Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  And this was all exposed later on by the Miami Herald, by the reporting of a guy named Alfonso Charti.

• 44:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I just want to interject here real quick. So do you remember when we've done historic stuff in the past? And I'm like, go read the contemporary articles? There was some-

• 44:54Speaker 02

  These are so good.

• 44:55Josh Clark?

  Really good reporting going on, because the story was so huge and multifaceted.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I mean, Newsweek broke it before Congress knew.

• 45:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, right.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  The Washington Post broke it.

• 45:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Wall Street Journal.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, Wall Street Journal and then the Miami Herald.

• 45:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah. LA Times did a lot of really good reporting.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  It was going on in Miami's backyard.

• 45:12Josh Clark?

  But it was back when it wasn't like, oh, think piece, think piece, think piece, actual article. Think piece, think piece. You know, it was like real reporting. And even then, it still wasn't up to snuff in the end. But there were actual journalists like actually paying attention and writing about this stuff and informing the public about it.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  And this is when you and I were kids. And I think like, maybe even the seeds of us, because we both kind of had desires to be real deal journalists in our lives at one point.

• 45:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Look at us now.

• 45:39Josh Clark?

  Speaking of-

• 45:40Speaker 02

  What a joke.

• 45:41Josh Clark?

  RIP Mad Magazine.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:45Josh Clark?

  What a shame.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, they tried that reboot. Didn't work.

• 45:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  It's tough.

• 45:51Josh Clark?

  It is. It's tough biz these days.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  And I got friends that worked for them, too. Like in this recent reiteration.

• 45:57Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, or iteration, I guess.

• 46:00Josh Clark?

  I know one of their illustrators is a Stuff You Should Know fan from years back.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  It's very sad to see it go.

• 46:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  So it is very 80s reference, though.

• 46:09Josh Clark?

  It was.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  It really wasn't off track. So, all right, this is going on. They set up this office run by Otto Reich. And this whole thing was designed and orchestrated by the CIA. But here's the deal. The CIA wasn't supposed to be doing this. They were barred from doing this.

• 46:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there was a longstanding prohibition on the CIA from operating in the US. Basically, like, we know who you are and we know you're so good. You can't use that stuff on us. You can only use it overseas. It's fine if you go overthrow other countries.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  On your mind tricks.

• 46:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, use those on other groups, but you can't use them here in the States. And actually, Reagan himself also had his own executive order explicitly banning the CIA from, let's see, doing any activity that was intended to influence United States political processes, public opinion, or media.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Eh.

• 47:05Josh Clark?

  This is Reagan's executive order, 12333. And he, at least his administration, was like, forget about that, we'll just get around that.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and who was this? It says here that the CIA's biggest, foremost psychological warfare expert

• 47:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  retired from the agency officially and then was hired as a consultant, I guess, to this Office of Public Diplomacy. Was that Otto Reich? Was that someone else?

• 47:33Josh Clark?

  I don't know.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  Oh, well, maybe that's the whole point.

• 47:35Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. But that's why I was saying earlier, like Reagan, that's the Reagan administration way. Just like, here's the letter of the law. Well, let's change this letter in our sentence. And now we're following the letter of the law.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:48Josh Clark?

  You know? And that's what they did. So the CIA's psychological warfare guy retired, came on as a consultant, and he said, oh, here's what you do. You need to basically start setting up some sting operations, because the point of this is to, I can't remember who said this, but to paint or to glue black hats on the Sandinistas and white hats on the Contras in the public mind.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Right. So when you say sting operations, we mean literally the United States and all over North smuggling cocaine into Nicaragua,

• 48:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  photographing Sandinista officials with this shipment.

• 48:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  And then smuggling the cocaine back to the United States.

• 48:30Josh Clark?

  Back to Florida.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Back to Florida.

• 48:32Josh Clark?

  They're like, we told you we'd bring it back. Chill, man.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Unbelievable.

• 48:36Josh Clark?

  Give us our driver's licenses back.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  So this photo is published. This is during the middle of the Just Say No movement, championed by Nancy Reagan.

• 48:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  So it all fit on the surface, but what was going on behind the scenes is just inconscionable.

• 48:53Josh Clark?

  It is unconscionable.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Unconscionable.

• 48:55Josh Clark?

  It was both. But this gave Reagan this photograph that got published all over the place.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And he's like, look what's going on. Look what these guys are doing. These are, they're bringing this stuff into America, killing our kids.

• 49:08Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Right? So these are the people that were fighting, or the Contras are fighting. How can you keep the funding turned off for the Contras, Congress, you jerks?

• 49:18Speaker 02

  And that was the only evidence, too.

• 49:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the DEA somehow came out and said, by the way, I don't know if anybody cares or not, but we have no evidence whatsoever that this Sandinistin official has ever engaged in drug trafficking, aside from this photograph. But this was a follow-up, probably weeks after the big splash of the original photograph came out. So that was one sting operation.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:41Josh Clark?

  There was another one that involved Manuel Noriega, the dictator of Panama.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:46Josh Clark?

  Who actually was selling drugs to America's youth.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he was also a friend of the CIA.

• 49:52Josh Clark?

  Exactly. So much so that he was a CIA operative for a very long time.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know about a friend, but he was at least an asset.

• 49:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:00Josh Clark?

  So this sting operation was, they were going to, through Panama, have Panama arrange for a shipment of arms to be seized in Honduras.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  El Salvador.

• 50:11Josh Clark?

  El Salvador.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  On its way to Honduras, or maybe just in El Salvador, ostensibly arms from Nicaragua.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, basically saying, you're arming Salvadorians, you're arming Hondurans.

• 50:22Josh Clark?

  You're exporting your revolution.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 50:24Josh Clark?

  This is exactly the kind of thing that Ronald Reagan has been saying, we need to contain, we need to pluck this sprout of communism out from Nicaragua.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:32Josh Clark?

  Because they're trying to spread out of the region. Totally made up, complete sting operation, and it didn't even work. Because Manuel Noriega was like, I didn't like that New York Times piece you guys just published about me. I'm going to keep this shipment of arms for myself.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I love that first he was like, I can do that.

• 50:50Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  He's like, sure, send me the arms.

• 50:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  And then we were like, oh, okay.

• 50:54Josh Clark?

  There would be a, I think it's from the Iran-Contra investigation, the description of Manuel Noriega was that he ran a narco kleptocracy. That was the government that he ran.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, just break down that word.

• 51:10Josh Clark?

  He was as shady as they come.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  That just means drugs, thievery.

• 51:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:16Josh Clark?

  So this is what's going on in the United States in the mid 80s.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and here's the deal. If you were a reporter at the time,

• 51:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  and you were reporting on this stuff, the NSC didn't like that very much. So they would meet with editors and reporters themselves.

• 51:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  And be like, hey, can you like, can you report on the Sandinists that they're really not good people? Like, can you help us out a little bit?

• 51:40Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Well, but here's the thing, if you didn't play ball.

• 51:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Then didn't they cook up some story that they would, that they would send like Sandinistin sex workers there to like, pleasure the reporters?

• 51:51Josh Clark?

  That was the rumor, was that if you were a journalist who reported favorably on the Sandinistin government, the reason you reported favorably on them was because the Sandinistin government was furnishing you with sex workers.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  Right. That was, that was directly from the Office of Public Diplomacy.

• 52:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  And I read the thing about it, and they said, the guy was like, and we're not just talking women either.

• 52:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  If they were gay men, then they would, we would send gay sex workers.

• 52:15Josh Clark?

  Right. So totally discredit them. It's like a complete page right out of Edward Bernays' playbook. It's orchestrated by the CIA's foremost expert on psychological warfare. And this was the state of America in the mid 80s. But that was just one dimension of this whole thing. And I say, this is the end of part one. What do you think?

• 52:36Speaker 02

  I think that's great.

• 52:37Josh Clark?

  And we're going to make this a cliffhanger.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  That's right. And as per tradition, we are not going to do a listener mail, but instead we'll do a call, which we rarely do. A little, just a little marketing call, everyone. If you like Stuff You Should Know.

• 52:53Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  We've been doing this so long, we're so bad at this, yet we've managed to grow anyway.

• 52:57Josh Clark?

  It's crazy.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  Tell a friend. Share an episode with a friend.

• 53:00Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Now that they don't have to, you don't have to explain what a podcast is.

• 53:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  It's a lot cleaner now.

• 53:05Josh Clark?

  Maybe start with a good one, like ballpoint pens or something.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, tell a friend about the show, leave a nice review, or just any kind of review at all on iTunes, that would help us out.

• 53:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. That's how classy Chuck and I are. He even corrected himself from good review to just any review. Whatever you want to leave, we're not going to try to influence you.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  No.

• 53:25Josh Clark?

  Like the Reagan White House.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  That's right. So, yeah, we'd really appreciate it. Spread a little love, try and turn one person on to our podcast this week, and that really helps us out.

• 53:33Josh Clark?

  Nice, Chuck.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  How about that?

• 53:35Josh Clark?

  That sounds like a good pyramid.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  We like to do this once every five or six years.

• 53:38Josh Clark?

  Well, thank you for joining us this week. If you want to get in touch with us, you can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com and check out our social links. You can also send us an email to [email protected].

• 53:53Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 54:09Josh Clark?

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• 54:50Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 55:42Speaker 07

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