A Good Walk Ruined: The History of Golf

The history of golf is a bit muddled, but once it was truly born in Scotland, it started the beginning of lifelong obsessions for people dumb enough to pick up a club and give it a try. Learn all about the early history of the most frustrating game ever invented. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:45Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:55Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too. And in this episode, we'll get to hear Chuck do a Scottish accent a lot, I wonder.

• 2:05Josh Clark?

  Wow, I haven't really thought about that. I do love that Livia helped us with this, how she titled it, which I think I'm titling it something like that. But she titled it Golf: Spoiling Good Walks Since 1457. Have you ever heard that phrase?

• 2:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that is Samuel Clements.

• 2:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, how to spoil a good walk or whatever, something like that?

• 2:26Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  It's pretty funny. They get it. Golf is hard.

• 2:31Josh Clark?

  I have a question for you. Do you, are you into golf at all?

• 2:35Josh Clark?

  You're being coy. I have been playing golf since I was 13, but I took like 25 years off from like, kind of post-college to when I moved back to Atlanta. Played maybe once or twice a year during that time, but then have gotten really, started playing again in 2020 during COVID, but still very casually. But then like six months ago, started really getting into it again and like trying to get better for the first time.

• 3:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. How's it going?

• 3:08Josh Clark?

  I mean, it's very hard. Emily asked me why I love golf so much, and that's, that's why, because golf is really, really hard.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  And so when you do it well, it feels like you've like achieved something. And so that's what I love about it. It's really, really, really, really hard. And I like trying things that sometimes that are really, really hard.

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  You know what they call that? The love of the game.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  That's right. And you were kind enough to let me make this announcement now, is I'm dipping my toe back into the podcast world. You know, I haven't done anything like that since Movie Crush went away. And friend of the show and friend of ours in real life, Adam Pranica of The Greatest Generation. Adam is a golfer, and we play golf together, and we text about it all the time. I was like, we should do a golf podcast, like a fun and funny one, and try and build like a community around it, because most golf podcasts are like, kind of serious or instructional.

• 4:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:06Josh Clark?

  And I said, there's not a lot of shows out there for guys like us that are like, not great at it, like average golfers who just sort of the absurdity of the sport. And Adam was in, and so we're, we're doing a new show.

• 4:20Josh Clark?

  That's awesome. I predict you guys will make a great pair.

• 4:23Josh Clark?

  I hope so. Yeah, it's called Three Putt Bogey, and we think that's kind of a fun and funny name that, you know, that's kind of the, one of the worst things that can happen on a golf course. That means you have, like on a par three, for example, you've hit a great tee shot onto the green, you got a shot at birdie, but you putt it three times instead for a bogey. So that really kind of sums up where we are in our game, and I think it's very relatable. And it's out now. It released on, I think, episode one was Friday, September 25th. So you can go out and listen to it right now, wherever you get your podcasts. And also, follow us on socials, Three Putt Bogey Podcast on Instagram. We're gonna have lots of fun content on there.

• 5:00Josh Clark?

  Wow, that's a great name.

• 5:02Josh Clark?

  Thanks. Well, I mean, we hope it gets across like what it is, which is, again, average guys having a good time. What we're hoping to do is, is build a community of like, support. Because like I said, it's a hard game and like, you know, the worst thing you can do is go and play golf with people that are like, really want to beat you, or like, want to gamble at golf and stuff. Like, that's not my deal. Adam and I are both kind of like cheerleaders when we play with each other and with friends, and we're hoping to build-

• 5:29Josh Clark?

  Do you dress like cheerleaders when you play?

• 5:31Josh Clark?

  Well, well, sometimes on, on Fridays.

• 5:34Josh Clark?

  That's cool. I think that's definitely the better way to go, is to do that, rather than be like, you remember that one character on The Pit who was hospitalized because he did too much cocaine and drank too much and like blacked out and tried to kill somebody?

• 5:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the golfer, yeah.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  That's who I think, I think of when you're describing the type of golfer you just did.

• 5:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, that's not me. Like, if you're, if you want to go out there and play for money and really compete against your friends, that's, that's great, if that's your deal. But we're, we're trying to build a show that's, that's fun and encouraging, and I, I hope people give it a shot.

• 6:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So maybe leave your fleece vest at the door when you listen to your podcast.

• 6:13Josh Clark?

  That's right. But all this to say, we are about to start an episode here in three, two, one, about the history of golf, because I think it's fairly interesting.

• 6:23Josh Clark?

  It is. One of the things I found quite interesting about it is that it has not only some unclear origins, there's a lot of people who just kind of say whatever they want about the history of golf, and it gets spread around as like, yep, that's, that's the history. And thankfully, we have great writers and researchers like Livia to be like, actually, that's not true at all, which is one of my favorite things to do.

• 6:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I think some of the confusion comes in because like, many, many ancient places had games that involved hitting a ball with a stick, sometimes into a hole. So I think it's very easy for someone to say like, hey, in ancient Rome, they had a game called Paganica, and that was, that was the first golf. Or someone might say, yeah, no, in China, they had a game called Chuiwan, or hit ball, and they had rules like golf, and so it was kind of like golf. But I think we can mostly agree that like golf as we know it started, of course, in Scotland.

• 7:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and one of the stories goes that it was bored Scottish shepherds who were like, let me use my shepherd's hook to bat some rocks toward a hole in the ground. That's probably not correct either. What they think, at the very least what Livia thinks, is that the, the word golf, at least, if not golf itself, can actually be found in Holland. And this isn't where like golf comes from. I'm not trying to rewrite history here, shake the boat. Everybody knows that, yes, like you said, golf came from Scotland, but it's possible that the inspiration for golf in Scotland came from there. At the very least, it's almost certain that the word golf came from the Dutch.

• 8:15Josh Clark?

  That's right, except it was C-O-L-F. That was a game that, at least that word was recorded in 1297, that did involve hitting balls into holes, was probably a little more like cricket. But golf had other spellings throughout the years. G-O-U-F-F.

• 8:33Josh Clark?

  Goif.

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  G-O-I-F-F. G-O-W-F-F.

• 8:37Josh Clark?

  Golf.

• 8:38Josh Clark?

  G-O-L-P-H.

• 8:40Josh Clark?

  Golf.

• 8:41Josh Clark?

  That's right. It's, you've seen Caddyshack, right? I know you're not into golf, but have you seen that movie?

• 8:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I have. I'm more of a Happy Gilmore fan, meaning it's one of my favorite movies. But Happy Gilmore 2? No, sir.

• 8:55Josh Clark?

  Oh, I didn't know there was a second one.

• 8:56Josh Clark?

  Oh, just wipe it from your memory that there is a second Happy Gilmore.

• 9:01Josh Clark?

  All right. Will Ferrell has that new show, too.

• 9:04Josh Clark?

  What new show? A golf show?

• 9:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's called Hawk.

• 9:08Josh Clark?

  I had no idea golf was so popular.

• 9:10Josh Clark?

  It's super popular right now, for sure.

• 9:12Josh Clark?

  I'm just kidding.

• 9:13Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, I didn't know if you knew, because it's kind of come and gone as far as like, I think it's at like peak popularity these days.

• 9:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, really? I actually didn't know that. I didn't know it had ever gone. I thought it was always generally widely and wildly popular.

• 9:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, it's always been pretty popular. I mean, I've got some stats for you if you want.

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, lay them on me.

• 9:31Josh Clark?

  Golf is, 48 million Americans participate.

• 9:35Josh Clark?

  There's only 50.

• 9:38Josh Clark?

  It is a, guess how much just United States annual like economic effect golf has in the United States?

• 9:45Josh Clark?

  I mean, obviously, I'm gonna say it's in the billions, but I have no guess between-

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  $226 billion.

• 9:51Josh Clark?

  That is not what I was gonna guess.

• 9:53Josh Clark?

  Responsible for 1.65 million jobs, $80 billion in wages in the US. And this is because, you know, golf gets a bad rap because it's sort of an environmental nightmare in a lot of ways.

• 10:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Josh Clark?

  So I'm trying to highlight some of the good things.

• 10:07Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 10:08Josh Clark?

  But golf, $4.6 billion annual in charitable contributions generated through golf, which is more than all other pro sports combined.

• 10:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, wow. That's a great one, too. Nice work.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  Which is pretty good. But jumping back to Caddyshack, I mentioned that because there's that one great line from Ted Knight, when he's talking about the history of golf, he says, but it was, it was golf without the L.

• 10:31Josh Clark?

  I don't remember that one.

• 10:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 10:34Josh Clark?

  The thing I remember is, of course, the baby Ruth in the bottom of the pool.

• 10:37Josh Clark?

  Right, of course.

• 10:39Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, so we've got at least the word golf from the Dutch, but golf, as we spell it today, G-O-L-F, that was around the mid 1400s. And this is when people, well, maybe not the mid 1400s, at least within the next 100 years, people started golfing in Scotland, doing what we would recognize as golf today. Like, I have this stick or whatever, and I have another one to do to like drive with, I have one to putt with, essentially. I'm hitting a ball and I'm trying to get it into a hole and the hole's way over there. So like what you could, if as a golfer, Chuck, you could show up in 16th century Scotland

• 11:24Josh Clark?

  and be like, let's play, and you guys would generally be able to work it out.

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the earliest golf was sort of an urban version, like where you played in the streets of the town. They called that short golf, but that was obviously not the same as what they called long golf, which was out in the pasture or field.

• 11:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:43Josh Clark?

  And we'll, we'll talk about that evolution a little bit more, but you know, we, we know for sure golf was a thing then because in 1457, there was an act of parliament in Scotland, signed by King James II, that outlawed golf and football because he said there were pointless sports and you should be practicing like archery or something instead. And then there were also complaints about people playing golf instead of going to church. And that's where I found this kind of fun little thing called Sunday Sticks, which was a sneaky way to get some golf in. Apparently, they would flip over a golf club and hold it as a cane. So you're holding like the head of the golf club and walk around, pretend like as if

• 12:27Josh Clark?

  you needed a cane, and then you flip that thing over and you can just play a quick hole of golf with it, I guess.

• 12:33Josh Clark?

  Wow, man, you really have to love golf to try to deceive your entire town.

• 12:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and your Lord and Savior.

• 12:39Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Jesus is like, I see you for what you are.

• 12:43Josh Clark?

  That's right. And quit using my name in vain out there on the course.

• 12:48Josh Clark?

  So that, that prohibition on golf from 1457, from King James II, it apparently didn't take because in 1471 and 1491, the Scottish Parliament said, like, stop playing golf, you're not allowed to play golf. And it's probable that the golf that they were referring to was short golf.

• 13:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:12Josh Clark?

  Which is, I don't, I didn't catch how, how much in depth you went with short golf. Did you just mention it?

• 13:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, just that, you know, they played it sort of in town on the streets of like the village.

• 13:24Josh Clark?

  Yes, that was a problem in and of itself because, you know, you had glass windows and, you know, village people walking around, so you don't want to hit them, but they, they were probably banning short golf. Instead, if you were, say, aristocracy and not like a working class person or a peasant or something like that, you were like, okay, just ban short golf. I'm going to play this new form called long golf and I'm going to go play it in the pasture lands.

• 13:51Josh Clark?

  That's right, or a golfing ground, or a links. And that's where, you know, that's where that, that name first comes from, mainly around Scotland's east coast at the time. This is where, you know, they weren't building a lot of buildings because it was oceanside, it was pretty sandy. So there was, you know, it was wide open land, rabbits everywhere. Apparently, there's lore that rabbits may have, like rabbit holes were some of the first golf holes.

• 14:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 14:19Josh Clark?

  Not gophers. But, you know, some of these early terms like links like had been around since the very beginning and also this idea that you go out to play like nine holes and then back in on the back nine, like they were saying stuff like that. And they borrowed, I never knew this, the term fairway, which if you don't know anything about golf, when you, you tee off and you hit it out there and hopefully the middle of that green expanse, that the middle of that green expanse where the grass is the shortest is the fairway. And that term is a sailing term, meaning the easiest direction to go, which makes a lot of sense in terms of golf.

• 14:55Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 14:57Josh Clark?

  So, okay, so we're in Scotland, it's the 15th century, parliament keeps trying to ban golf, the Scottish people say no. And then finally in 1502, they're like, fine, we're going to lift the ban on golf, everybody can play golf. And the reason why is that not coincidentally, James IV,

• 15:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Josh Clark?

  who was the grandson of James II, who was the first one to proclaim golf illegal, he went to Perth in Scotland, not Australia, and he found out about golf and he fell in love with it so much, he came home with his own set of clubs and was like, I'm into golf now, let's all play golf all the time.

• 15:35Josh Clark?

  That's right. There are also apparently receipts of the king purchasing clubs in Edinburgh and St. Andrew around the same time. So the royals are getting into it, so that means everyone else can.

• 15:46Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:47Josh Clark?

  Well, not quite everyone, as we'll see. But Mary, Queen of Scots, the granddaughter of King James IV, she ruled from 1542 to 1567, apparently she was into golf and is one of the first women to like just have any sort of impact on the game at all, especially early on. And apparently her enemies used that against her. They would spread rumors that she played just a few days after her second husband died. And that obviously was a violation of how someone was thought to like mourn, or like how someone should mourn, rather. But also like a bit of a smear campaign that's just like, it's not an appropriate game for ladies at the time. And look at Mary, Queen of Scots is doing.

• 16:30Josh Clark?

  Exactly. I say we come back or take a break and then come back and possibly, if we're lucky, we'll talk a little more about the history of golf.

• 16:40Josh Clark?

  Let's do it.

• 16:54Josh Clark?

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• 17:57Josh Clark?

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• 20:07Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, so we're back and I think we kind of have gotten across it's really difficult to trace the history of golf in any really legitimate manner and not just make stuff up. That sounds cool. There are some surviving documents that give us an idea of the early contours of what golf was like. There's a textbook from the 17th century, a diary from the 17th century, an embarrassing poem from the 18th century, and a book of golf instructions from the mid 19th century. And all of them put together, kind of given historians a pretty good view on golf.

• 20:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. The poem I thought was pretty interesting. That was in 1743 by Thomas Matheson. And it was, you know, if you're writing a parody epic poem, and it's called "The Golf," G-O-F-F, as Ted Knight would love. And, you know, there was a character, a goddess named Golfinia in it. Like, that means it's pretty well in the public, like, specter at this point.

• 21:13Josh Clark?

  Did you, did you look that up?

• 21:15Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:16Josh Clark?

  It's a, I mean, it is an epic poem about golf.

• 21:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:21Josh Clark?

  There's also that diary was by a guy named Thomas Kincaid, who was a medical student at Edinburgh University, which we toured, I think, at least some of their, some parts of it. But he was there in 1687. And he was like, his diary was essentially like, I'm playing golf today, and this is what I'm doing. My swing's not so great. I need to improve my swing. Here's how we handicap. Here's what clubs are made of. Like, he was just basically leaving a document for future historians that they couldn't have asked for more than.

• 21:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he would have started his own podcast, had that been around at the time. But instead, he had a diary.

• 22:00Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 22:00Josh Clark?

  Which was very cool. And then, you know, there was an instructional book called The Golfer's Manual by a Keen Hand, and that was 1857. And that was like, the first printed book of instruction from H.B. Farney. So golf is definitely a thing by that point. St. Andrews is, has recognized the old course that is there as the oldest surviving golf course that's still around. It's been operating since at least 1552.

• 22:27Josh Clark?

  That's impressive.

• 22:27Josh Clark?

  Which is, yeah, just incredible. Yeah, yeah. Still, still around. Like, they'll, they'll still play the open there every, I'm not sure if it's like, a set number of years that they go back, but they still play it there.

• 22:41Josh Clark?

  The British Open?

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's called specifically The Open, but

• 22:48Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 22:48Josh Clark?

  People call it The British Open to differentiate it from the US Open. But

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  I think the Scots are very much like, no, it's just The Open.

• 22:57Josh Clark?

  There it is.

• 22:58Josh Clark?

  The Open. Give us more, baby. That's all you get.

• 23:03Josh Clark?

  Here, I've got one for you.

• 23:04Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 23:05Josh Clark?

  The Archbishop of St. Andrews, his name was John Hamilton, back in 1552. This is how we know that it was being played on, at least since then. It was probably being played on long before then, because in 1552, John Hamilton's like, fine, here's a charter, you people of St. Andrews, my congregants, my people, you guys can play on the links. For, and here's where you do a John Hamilton impression from 1552.

• 23:34Josh Clark?

  Golf, football, shooting, and all games.

• 23:38Josh Clark?

  Beautiful. Those are dead on John Hamilton.

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  I don't know why my Scottish accent sounds like I'm about to choke at any second.

• 23:47Josh Clark?

  I feel like most Scottish impressions are like that. Like, think about Groundskeeper Willie. He's like, really worked up all the time.

• 23:54Josh Clark?

  No, that's true. And I think I'm also just doing Mike Myers from So I Married an Axe Murderer.

• 24:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Is that the, if it's not Scottish, it's crap, family?

• 24:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:05Josh Clark?

  Hit, move. It was good stuff.

• 24:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was very good stuff. That was a fun movie.

• 24:11Josh Clark?

  Was it? I haven't seen it.

• 24:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was funny.

• 24:14Josh Clark?

  I've seen all the Austin Powers movies. Does that count for anything?

• 24:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, one of those is good.

• 24:19Josh Clark?

  There was Fat Bastard. He was Scottish.

• 24:22Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 24:23Josh Clark?

  Boy, what an offensive character he was.

• 24:27Josh Clark?

  So, early on, these golfing grounds or links were, were, they just used sort of what the land gave them. The, if there was a pond, that was a hazard. If there was a big, a big, like, hill in the middle of the fairway, that was, maybe not a hazard, but something you had to get through.

• 24:44Josh Clark?

  Stationary tornado, hazard.

• 24:47Josh Clark?

  That's right. But they essentially created like, the model for what a golf course would be and what would look like as people started to like, construct and build golf courses. And also, the number of holes. I think the old course was originally 22 holes, but in 1764, they did some consolidating, and eventually ended up with 18. And they were like, that's the standard.

• 25:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's the, that's the thing. That's why everybody's so into Scotland as the origin or the cradle of golf, because not only is that where golf really started and developed, that's where like, a lot of the terms are from. Like you said, links, a lot of the rules, a lot of the standards, like the 18-hole golf course, they all just kind of came from Scotland and spread from there. Indisputably, came from Scotland and spread from there. That's what the beautiful thing is. We've finally have made it out of the murky past into the much clearer past for the history of golf.

• 25:42Josh Clark?

  That's right. The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews, or otherwise known as the RNA, originally was known as Society of St. Andrews Golfers. That was founded in 1754 by 22, quote, "nobleman and gentlemen." And they, the RNA is who basically runs the show. They took responsibility for maintaining that old course, building the new course. So the new course was 1895. That shows you how old golf is. And they became the authority. I think in the late 19th century, the RNA became the UK's authority for the rules of the game. And they managed the open, or the British Open, as we call it, and then other, other stuff, like big golf events over there.

• 26:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I saw that they are, I saw someone equate them to the Augusta National Golf Club, where they're just an authority on the game, and they are, they have such authority, they can actually issue rules and stuff like that.

• 26:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Josh Clark?

  Is that, that works, that works out? I mean, it was Bleacher Report. They're pretty legit.

• 26:45Josh Clark?

  I mean, that sounds about right. You're talking about the, where they play the Masters here in Augusta, Georgia, a place where I've never been.

• 26:51Josh Clark?

  I guess.

• 26:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's, that's the one. I'm dying to go to the Masters, but it's really, really hard to get tickets.

• 26:59Josh Clark?

  Yes. And I think you should do a call out for anyone who can get you Masters tickets to get them to you.

• 27:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah. If you want to host me at the Masters, I mean, I can't believe I've never asked this. Please and thank you.

• 27:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah. You'll bring the, the crackers for the pimento cheese.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  I'll bring everything.

• 27:18Josh Clark?

  So, yes. You are a great guest. I remember when we were in Canada, you picked up after yourself all the time. You pushed each chair back into the table. Like, you were a great guest.

• 27:29Josh Clark?

  I appreciate that.

• 27:31Josh Clark?

  So, and I realize I'm being kind of jokey in this episode. I'm not usually very jokey. But that's because I have so little to offer in this episode, that I have to be the color commentator, I feel like.

• 27:44Josh Clark?

  That's right. You're doing great.

• 27:46Josh Clark?

  Like, you're Vern Lundquist, and I'm Dennis Miller in this one.

• 27:52Josh Clark?

  So, we should talk about the 13 Articles. There was an event in 1744, there was a group known as the Honorable Company of Edinburgh Golfers. And they created a competition called The Silver Club. And in preparation for this, they wrote out a document called the 13 Articles. And that was sort of the first official rulebook of golf, which is now, like, very much expanded as far as the official rules of golf with like, the PGA and stuff like that.

• 28:20Josh Clark?

  I saw Rule 11 was that you had to memorize and then recite Matheson's epic poem, "The Golf."

• 28:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, wow.

• 28:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which is long.

• 28:28Josh Clark?

  Probably hard.

• 28:30Josh Clark?

  So, golf finally showed up in England in 1603. Again, it had been being played for 150 years by then. But Scotland and England frequently went to war. They weren't very friendly during this period. They became much friendlier when Mary, Queen of Scots' son, James VI of Scotland, who was the Scottish ruler at the time, he inherited the English throne. And he became James I of England. And so Scotland and England became much cozier companions. And when James I showed up, he had his crew with him, his entourage, court, as you'd call it. And among his court members were a lot, or courtiers, were a lot of people

• 29:13Josh Clark?

  who were avid golf players. And just because they had moved to a country that had never heard of golf before, they, that wasn't going to stop them from continuing to play anytime they could.

• 29:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it sounds like he's like, these are my boys, and we like to golf.

• 29:28Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 29:29Josh Clark?

  So go build me a course. And that's what happened. They established a course in Blackheath, near the Royal Palace in Greenwich. And it was, it didn't like, spread far and wide, though. In fact, it, I think, it was like, post-World War I, was when you finally got to 1,000 golf courses in England and 200,000 golf enthusiasts. So, in that interim time, apparently, these, a lot of doctors, like Scottish professionals, living in England, brought the sport over. People would go on vacation, maybe to Scotland, discover it and come back and be like, why aren't we playing golf in England yet?

• 30:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:08Josh Clark?

  And eventually, they would get some momentum going. Someone would rent some land. Someone would create a course. And they just started opening, eventually, at the rate of about one golf course a week by the 1890s in England.

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but then those courses would close down very quickly, just because it was, it was like, overbuilding malls at the time.

• 30:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:28Josh Clark?

  Or, in my family's experience, racquetball clubs in the 80s.

• 30:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:34Josh Clark?

  My, my family was on a terrible streak in the mid, early mid 80s, where we would join a racquetball club, the whole family, and a month later, the place would shut down, and there went our money. And then we'd move on to the next one. It easily happened at least three times to us, if not more.

• 30:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's crazy to remember when racquetball had a grip on the United States.

• 30:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:54Josh Clark?

  In the 80s, that was, it was like, it was fast and wild, and then basically went away. You never hear about racquetball anymore.

• 31:03Josh Clark?

  No. I'm sure there's people who still play it quite a bit.

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. I love racquetball. I haven't played since you and I did that, that commercial thing.

• 31:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I forgot about that.

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  14 years ago.

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  That was awesome. It is great. The court sounds cool. It's fun to watch.

• 31:18Josh Clark?

  It's a great workout.

• 31:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. And the bags are usually pretty awesome, especially the early 80s racquetball bags.

• 31:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And pickleball, please.

• 31:27Josh Clark?

  Get back to racquetball, people. That's what I say.

• 31:29Josh Clark?

  Sure. Let's get back to it.

• 31:32Josh Clark?

  Maybe you and I should invest in a racquetball court.

• 31:34Josh Clark?

  Franchise?

• 31:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:36Josh Clark?

  We gotta figure out a good name for it. And it can't be some course reference to balls.

• 31:43Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. That's immediately what I thought.

• 31:45Josh Clark?

  No, we're gonna have to workshop it further, Chuck.

• 31:49Josh Clark?

  All right, cool. Speaking of workshopping, they had to workshop the number of holes because, you know, 18 was the official number, but most of these golf courses in England were nine-hole courses. And there's still plenty of nine-hole courses out there. But eventually, they expanded to 18. And one downside to golf, you know, early on in England was it drove up the price of land quite a bit and also displaced, like, cattle grazing and stuff like that and angered a lot of farmers, right?

• 32:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, think about that, Chuck. Like, England is not big, but this is like 19th century England, just had started the Industrial Revolution. And like, there's already land that's, there's like a land grab going on for golf courses. It's already having an effect. Like, that's how golf course crazy England went at the time. And yeah, some of the farmers pushed back. I think that they would drive their cattle onto the commons to graze during golf games to basically send the message, like, take it elsewhere, guy.

• 32:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Josh Clark?

  That's the best I could come up with. I'm a terrible color commentator.

• 32:54Josh Clark?

  Well, you just can't say what you would say, which is filthy.

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  That's true. You know me so well.

• 33:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah. We've done pretty good over the years, avoiding that kind of filth and fawn.

• 33:04Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 33:05Josh Clark?

  So, a lot of these courses were created by the, the sort of, upper class and the aristocratic class, obviously. Sometimes it might be a local government. But, you know, it was a pretty bourgeois thing to play golf. And, you know, in a lot of areas, it still is that way, even though it's really been democratized in the past, like, especially 20 years, I think.

• 33:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 33:27Josh Clark?

  But, you know, the, the rise of the industrial middle class in England was looking for stuff to do for fun like this. And they, they played golf. It was a good way to, to get out and enjoy nature and to do something to, you know, keep your body moving.

• 33:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And the Industrial Revolution had taken hold and changed things enough that the urban centers became like where people moved and lived. And so golf was a really great way to get out there, like you said, back to nature. People needed it quite badly by then. And then the other thing that happened, thanks to the Industrial Revolution, was the railroad made it a lot easier to get further out into the county, into the shires, as they call them.

• 34:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. So, all of a sudden, you had access, it gets you out into nature. That, that's still one of the things I love about it the best is, even though there are frustrations, like, those leave me very quickly. I don't like get mad and stay mad. I get mad for a second or two. And then you're out there with your friends and you're walking around in the sun for four hours and not looking at your phone. And, you know, it's great.

• 34:28Josh Clark?

  Not muttering to yourself?

• 34:30Josh Clark?

  I mutter a little bit, but no one likes playing with someone who just gets mad

• 34:35Josh Clark?

  No.

• 34:35Josh Clark?

  all the time. Like, that's just, that's no fun.

• 34:37Josh Clark?

  That's a great personality trait, though, be able to let it go. Let it go.

• 34:43Josh Clark?

  I try.

• 34:44Josh Clark?

  Let's take a break and come back and talk about the USA.

• 34:47Josh Clark?

  All right, let's do it.

• 35:02Josh Clark?

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• 35:12Josh Clark?

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• 35:25Josh Clark?

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• 35:41Josh Clark?

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• 36:05Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of VivGart, VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tegamod Alpha F Cab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 36:29Josh Clark?

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 36:41Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 36:58Josh Clark?

  Hey Chuck, YouTube Premium has become one of those things that makes your everyday YouTube experience a little better, especially if you're a dog owner. Because if you wanted to go find out more about how to train your dog, all you have to do is go onto YouTube Premium, type in dog training videos, and sit back and learn.

• 37:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, between Gibson and Momo, we're constantly looking up something dog-related, like when Gibson suddenly decided barking at the mailman was his full-time job.

• 37:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or Momo likes to chew things a lot. And sometimes it's not always things that she should be chewing.

• 37:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so naturally, YouTube is one of the first places someone might use for training tips. Everything from stopping barking and jumping to getting, hmm, maybe a little bit better at walking on a leash.

• 37:38Josh Clark?

  But what about dog nutrition, too? You gotta know about that these days. And there's an endless world of videos about dog nutrition on YouTube Premium. What foods are actually safe? Is homemade dog food a good idea?

• 37:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, look at this one right here. This is veterinarian-approved. And look at this lady. Her name is Dr. Wolf. Are you kidding me?

• 37:56Josh Clark?

  So YouTube has a ton of creators, not just Dr. Wolf, who can help you learn a lot more and make everyday pet-parent decisions feel a little less overwhelming.

• 38:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, that's where YouTube Premium really comes in. It takes something you already love, which is YouTube, and makes it even better because you get an enhanced, supercharged YouTube experience. It's got benefits that make it easier to enjoy the content and creators that you're into whenever and wherever you need them. Well, and now here we are, watching guilty dog videos, which is my guilty pleasure. Look at these guys.

• 38:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I know. I, I feel guilty watching them, but you, you just can't look away. It's too adorable and sad.

• 38:29Josh Clark?

  I know. Poor buddies.

• 38:31Josh Clark?

  And since YouTube Premium has ad-free viewing, we can watch guilty dog videos uninterrupted. Plus, background play means we can keep listening to those poor guilty dogs with our screen locked, which is pretty handy when you're walking the dog, right?

• 38:44Josh Clark?

  That's right. And with offline downloads, you can save videos ahead of time, which is awesome, and access them even when you don't have Wi-Fi. So, if you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Whether you're figuring out the latest weird dog behavior, or looking for something useful for your next walk, or maybe just indulging in your guilty pleasure, guilty dog videos, YouTube Premium makes the whole experience more seamless.

• 39:04Josh Clark?

  Sign up now for your free trial. Terms and conditions apply.

• 39:26Josh Clark?

  All right. So, we promised talk of the United States. Golf in the US goes back, you know, a pretty long way, actually. In the 17th century, when, you know, the American colonies were being populated from places like Scotland and the Netherlands, which we brought up, they were like, we want to play golf over here. Looks pretty good to me. And people started playing in 1659. I think that was verified that people were playing golf in Fort Orange, New York, modern-day Albany, in, I guess, that sort of short-style golf game.

• 39:58Josh Clark?

  Right, in the streets.

• 40:00Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 40:00Josh Clark?

  It's a four, kid.

• 40:03Josh Clark?

  The, actually, I think the Dutch colonial government in what would probably be what like

• 40:10Josh Clark?

  New Amsterdam or something like that at the time. They were like, you can't play the short golf stuff. Again, the windows are really costly here.

• 40:18Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:19Josh Clark?

  They're, they're a high end luxury. So let's not break them with your golf balls anymore.

• 40:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so it was sort of playing out the same way in the US as it did in Scotland early on.

• 40:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:31Josh Clark?

  In 1743, there was a Scottish native that was 21 years old. Also, he was a slave trader. His name was David Dees. And he had his gear shipped to him in Charleston, South Carolina. And in 1841, the South Carolina Golf Club established Harlestone Green in Charleston Park, which I think is the first American golf club. And very disappointingly, the caddies there were enslaved people.

• 41:01Josh Clark?

  Right. And it was, I looked it up, the Harlestone Golf Club, or Harlestone Green, I should say, is not there anymore, but that was the first one in the United States ever, right?

• 41:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the, the oldest continuous or continually running course, or I guess surviving course, in a lot of ways you could say that, is also St. Andrews, but not in Scotland, in Yonkers, New York in 1888. That was founded. Canada edges us out. I think the Royal Montreal Club was founded in 1873.

• 41:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:35Josh Clark?

  But I didn't know about St. Andrews and Yonkers. I'd love to go play that course.

• 41:39Josh Clark?

  It became one of the founding members of the US Golf Association, which this story is one of my favorites out of this whole thing.

• 41:47Josh Clark?

  Let's hear it.

• 41:48Josh Clark?

  Well, there's a guy named Charles Blair McDonald, and he is the first person to call himself a golf architect. He had Scottish roots, but he was from Chicago. But he went back and studied at St. Andrews University in Scotland. So of course he played golf a lot. And when he came back to Chicago, he was like, hey, man, let's get busy on turning Chicago into a world-class golf town. And he started designing courses and he became, yeah, a very widely respected course architect. He was also a huge, huge jerk. And because of his personality, he actually inadvertently gave rise to the US Golf Association.

• 42:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, didn't he like just pitch a tantrum or something?

• 42:34Josh Clark?

  He did, two different ones. He played in two tournaments, back to back, placed second in both of them, and threw such a hissy fit in both of these tournaments for placing second, that he called into question the legitimacy of the tournament. He basically said that the players who placed first had cheated, like really was a sore loser. So much so that St. Andrews and Yonkers, and I think four other golf clubs at the time, got together and were like, we need to come up with a set of rules that can't be challenged or anything like that. None of this loosey goosey stuff, because people like Charles Blair McDonald are out there, they exist, we've seen now. So they got together to formalize rules. Again, that became the USGA.

• 43:16Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 43:17Josh Clark?

  And they did it because of Charles Blair McDonald and his temper tantrums.

• 43:21Josh Clark?

  Wow, that's funny. Second is not bad, my friend.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  No, no, and especially with, in a golf tournament.

• 43:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's weird. So by 1900, there's more than 1,000 golf courses in the US. And then, just like in England, post-World War I, things really catch on even more. A lot has changed equipment-wise in golf over the years. Those early golf clubs were, you know, built by hand, obviously, and they were all wood. You know, they were dense hardwoods, basically like beech or holly. The shafts were made of wood, the club heads early on were made of wood, maybe ash or hazel for the shafts. And they had, at this point, you know, they were playing with a club for a shot. So it wasn't just like, all right, you've got two clubs, go out there and do it.

• 44:12Josh Clark?

  Like you had, you know, there was a guy named Archibald Berry, I think, was the first guy to invent a standard set of golf irons.

• 44:19Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 44:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but they had, you know, they had different names for the clubs, like the play club was what you would call a driver these days. A brassy would be equivalent to a three wood, a spoon was a five wood. A cleat, I saw a couple of things for cleat. I think a cleat was like a one or two iron, which is not a club that people really even use much anymore.

• 44:39Josh Clark?

  How come?

• 44:40Josh Clark?

  Like a lot, they're just really, really, really hard to hit.

• 44:43Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 44:44Josh Clark?

  It's like an iron that's just almost completely flat and has no like angle to it or loft.

• 44:49Josh Clark?

  No lift?

• 44:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 44:52Josh Clark?

  Like, I have a, five iron is the lowest iron I have. Some people have fours and some like, you know, really good golfers might have a two iron. But anyway, I think that's what a cleat was, even though I saw something about a cleat putter. They also had a baffy, or a baffing spoon would be like a seven wood. And a nick blick would be like a lofted wedge. And then all of this was like, like wood, wood, wood, until you finally started getting metal shafts, I think in the 1650s were the first metal shafts, but they didn't really become popular until much later on. And I think in 1930, the Spalding Company started like numbering the irons. So they got rid of like most of those words and just used like the numbers.

• 45:36Josh Clark?

  Right. And then metal clubs weren't around really until the 1980s or weren't common until the 80s. That kind of surprised me.

• 45:46Josh Clark?

  Well, metal woods.

• 45:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, before then, they were, like, my very first driver, when I was 13, was a wooden driver. I mean, it had a, it had a metal shaft, steel shaft, but it was a wooden driver. But the, the face of it has like a metal plate on the front of it.

• 46:06Josh Clark?

  Sure, no, I played golf. I was, actually, I, I let off about the same time as that, around age 13.

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I just mean for people listening, if they thought like.

• 46:17Josh Clark?

  You were talking to me.

• 46:18Josh Clark?

  No, no, no. Like, when you say they had wooden heads, they had wooden heads, but like a metal face plate.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  And then in the 1980s, like I remember my first driver that had like an all-metal head. And I was, I was just like, it felt like the future.

• 46:31Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. So one of the reasons they had to make harder and harder clubs was because the balls themselves got harder, I guess.

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:42Josh Clark?

  There was something called a gutta perka, which is from a Malaysian tree. It's a kind of latex. And this completely changed the, the type of ball that golfers were hitting before. I don't remember if we mentioned or not, but it was boiled goose feathers packed tightly in a leather, a leather exterior. That was a golf ball. That was like the, the standard for a while. Now, all of a sudden, you have this natural latex, it's way harder, and it's just, I'm guessing, breaking your club pretty easily. So that's, that's why they advanced in the technology of clubs. And then, now that the clubs and the balls were working so well, they had to actually go back and kind of rearrange golf courses, because people were hitting it way farther

• 47:25Josh Clark?

  than they had been before with the other, like the slightly jankier equipment.

• 47:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. And these days, just the, the tech behind golf clubs and golf balls is just, you know, as you would expect, it's like, it's so next level, it's, it's kind of funny, like how they manufacture these things now, and all like the R and D that goes into it.

• 47:45Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. I think that's a, I don't want to say it's an issue I have with it, but it's something that stands out to me, not just in golf, but in life these days. Everything has been optimized to the maximum degree that it's just like, you know, here, chase after this thing, you got enough money for this, and this is going to make you a million times better than you could be on your own through hard work and effort or whatever. It's just, I don't know, it just stands out to me.

• 48:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, oh, golf for sure is a sport that wants to sell you every new thing under the sun, to make you better.

• 48:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I imagine. And there's a lot of new things under the sun. You said it was a 200-plus billion dollar industry, and just the US alone, I imagine that's the case.

• 48:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It is a little annoying, though. I'm with you on that.

• 48:29Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 48:30Josh Clark?

  The term caddy was originally a term for a Scottish errand boy. And one of the errands was like, hey, come over here and carry my golf clubs, I don't want to do that. The balls, those feathery balls that you were talking about, were, were expensive. And so a lot of times, you would have what's called a four caddy. And this is someone who goes up the course a bit to find your ball and like spot where your ball went, so they can retrieve it for you. They still have caddies on some courses today, obviously. I've had a caddy in like three or four times, maybe, in my life, because I don't usually play like those super, super great courses. But it's a, it's a fun experience. Caddies are usually like, like really nice and like, you know, they work for tips.

• 49:12Josh Clark?

  So, you know, they're out there to, to help you play your best game and have a good time doing it.

• 49:18Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 49:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:20Josh Clark?

  I heard that the word caddy came from Mary Queen of Scots, who resided in France for a while, and some of the French cadets would carry her clubs around, and she lovingly referred to them as caddies. Is that not true, Chuck?

• 49:34Josh Clark?

  I don't know.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's not true.

• 49:36Josh Clark?

  Okay. In 19th century England, a lot of times, these were teenagers doing this kind of thing, or maybe a working class adult who couldn't go work at the factory or something. You might work as a caddy. Apparently, they weren't treated super great back then. I did mention that enslaved people were used in like, early in the United States as caddies. There were even reformers who were like, trying to do work to get caddies to be treated better.

• 50:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:05Josh Clark?

  And I love that Livia says, "Provide them with shelter on the course." She didn't use the word shack.

• 50:09Josh Clark?

  No, she didn't.

• 50:10Josh Clark?

  Sitting there, like staring at her.

• 50:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Josh Clark?

  It's pretty funny.

• 50:14Josh Clark?

  I wrote, "Caddy shack."

• 50:16Josh Clark?

  Well, Livia also said, "By the way, guys, I know nothing about golf, so if I got anything wrong, take it easy on me."

• 50:21Josh Clark?

  As far as I can tell, she did a great job.

• 50:23Josh Clark?

  No, she did a really good job.

• 50:25Josh Clark?

  And then pros, too. The idea of having a pro on staff, and then not just a golf pro who's there to like, teach you how to play, to tell you what clubs you need, that kind of stuff. But also, basically, people who maintain equipment, groundkeepers, they all started to come around in England. And then, if you were a member of like, a really good club, you probably had like, a famous player who was the pro. And then, if you were not a member of a really great club, there was probably still a really good Scottish golf player. Because Scottish players were like, the gold standard. I think if you belonged to a club that had like, a non-Scottish pro, or a non-famous

• 51:09Josh Clark?

  pro, you probably rethought where you sent your membership dues.

• 51:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. And, you know, that tradition continues today with like, you know, every, I don't know about every club, but I think most like, golf clubs have a pro on staff still.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  Today, for various uses. I think it's a, you know, it's a good way to earn a living. Like, I imagine most of those people wanted to go out and play like, professionally on tour.

• 51:34Josh Clark?

  But it's, I'm sure it's a great sort of gig to fall back on, you know?

• 51:38Josh Clark?

  For sure. So, golf fever really started off in the late 19th century, like there, when magazines dedicated to golf started. And then also, one of the other indicators that golf is just like this mass phenomenon, is that it starts showing up in other publications that had nothing to do with golf, right? Just like today, there was like, mention of golf. There was an article on golf, or this golfer, or something like that. And I found a, probably one of the most niche websites I've ever been on, it dealt in antique golf cartoons from the 19th century, from magazines like Punch. Did you see some of those?

• 52:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. My favorite one was, you know, one of the biggest no-no's you can do when you go to swing a club is to like, lift your head up.

• 52:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, I like that one, too.

• 52:29Josh Clark?

  Guaranteed bad result, like, keep your head down, keep your head down. And there's been all sorts of various devices over the years, like, literally a thing you hang around your neck and attach to your crotch, to like, keep you from lifting up. But there's, one of those antique cartoons had a guy with a, you know, a five-foot-long beard that he was standing on to keep him from lifting his head. I thought that was funny.

• 52:48Josh Clark?

  There's devices you attach to your crotch, keep your head down while you swing. What, does it like, shock you or something, if you lift your head?

• 52:55Josh Clark?

  Well, no, if you lift your head up, it just pulls up, you know, and I guess, pulls up at your crotch. Like, I don't think people use these. I remember seeing that like, 20 something years ago, and it may have been more of a novelty, but I do remember.

• 53:07Josh Clark?

  I gotcha.

• 53:08Josh Clark?

  It existed, yeah.

• 53:09Josh Clark?

  It was by the company that make those hard hats that hold beers and straws come out of them?

• 53:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, probably so.

• 53:16Josh Clark?

  So, one of the things that golf was long known for was it was an elite, white, male sport, or recreation, or pastime. And then slowly but surely, over the years, the gates opened more and more and more to women, to African Americans in the United States. And in the meantime, though, before those, those gates opened, groups like women, and like, African Americans, they just were like, "We like golf, too. We're gonna go do our own thing." So you had like, the LPGA that was formed in 1950?

• 53:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:54Josh Clark?

  The Chicago Women's Golf Club, which was all African American women, they formed their club in 1937. And then, the impression I have is that the United Golfers Association, the African American Men's Association, was like, the premier golf association, starting back in 1925, I think.

• 54:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's great. I mean, you know, it's definitely a game and a sport where there is still this old sort of country club set, that is still very white male oriented, like, no one is denying that. There's a country club sort of near my house, and I have some friends that are members that I get to play at sometimes, and they're a pretty, like, progressive model, but they still have like, the men's lounge. At, you know, the club, that's got, you know, the pool table, and the darts, and the buffet, and the bar, and the cigars. And, you know, the women there, they play golf, but they don't have their own lounge.

• 54:53Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 54:53Josh Clark?

  So, that kind of stuff is definitely still out there. There are clubs that have just recently, like, allowed women to be members, or African Americans, or people from other ethnicities to be members. So that's something that, that sucks, but it's changing. And I think golf is as democratized as it's ever been right now. Especially like, you go out in Atlanta, which is a very African American town, and you go out to public courses, and, you know, "These are where I'm playing," and the driving range, like, right near my house, and like, I'm a minority in a lot of cases. And it's, it's great to see. I love that the game is being spread around to more and more people. One of the fun segments on the show I'm gonna do is, I got these little, you know,

• 55:35Josh Clark?

  the little microphones that you see for Instagrammers, and I'm gonna go out to the range and like, talk to people and stuff. And, you know, that's gonna be one of the segments, so.

• 55:44Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 55:44Josh Clark?

  It's changed a lot over the years for the better, I think. And people are, I see guys with their girlfriends out there a lot now, which seems something I'd never used to see, that it's becoming like, a coupled sport more than ever, which is awesome.

• 55:56Josh Clark?

  I've noticed that, too.

• 55:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's cool. I love it.

• 56:00Josh Clark?

  So, I think this is high time that you tell everybody the name of your podcast again, and when they can get it, and where they can get it, Chuck.

• 56:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, thanks, dude. In fact, I'm gonna do this in lieu of listener mail, since we're running long, but, you know, once again, the show is with myself and Adam Pranica. Adam's gonna be on the cruise, by the way.

• 56:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he is.

• 56:19Josh Clark?

  He's my plus one, so we're gonna have a good time, the three of us are. And along with Ben is coming instead of Jerry now. We should probably announce that.

• 56:28Josh Clark?

  Yes, it's gonna be fun.

• 56:30Josh Clark?

  I know we told everyone Jerry was coming, but.

• 56:33Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:33Josh Clark?

  She can't come now.

• 56:34Josh Clark?

  You're gonna meet producer Ben, who may or may not actually be Jerry.

• 56:39Josh Clark?

  That's right. Yeah, once again, it's called Three Putt Bogey, and it's already out. It's live, everybody. It was released, once again, this past Friday, September 25th. So, give it a listen. I appreciate your support, and I appreciate your support, Josh, for allowing me to do another solo record.

• 57:00Josh Clark?

  I don't have any say in it whatsoever.

• 57:02Josh Clark?

  Well, not allowing, being encouraging of it, yeah, that's what I'm.

• 57:05Josh Clark?

  Encouraging makes more sense, yes. I am very encouraging. Go knock them out of the park.

• 57:10Josh Clark?

  I appreciate that, and I.

• 57:12Josh Clark?

  Is that a golf metaphor?

• 57:13Josh Clark?

  It absolutely is, a home run. And I look forward to End of the World Part Two.

• 57:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, thanks, man. Someday, someday.

• 57:20Josh Clark?

  You think so?

• 57:21Josh Clark?

  Something like it, probably, eventually. I'm not sure what, but I don't know.

• 57:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we'll see how it goes, and I'll let you know if it's, how taxing it is on me to do a second show again.

• 57:31Josh Clark?

  Right, you're just gonna be like, "Not worth it."

• 57:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 57:34Josh Clark?

  No, I'm sure it's gonna be fun. And plus, I mean, you'll have a great excuse to golf, golf, golf. And, I imagine, expense it, or at least write it off.

• 57:42Josh Clark?

  Nah, you know what? I can't do that. I actually checked with my accountant.

• 57:46Josh Clark?

  Why can't you? That doesn't make any sense.

• 57:48Josh Clark?

  Well, it's funny, because I was like, that wasn't the reason I started it, but I was like, "Hey, man, that'd be great if I could like, write off stuff."

• 57:54Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 57:55Josh Clark?

  She actually has, my accountant, has a golf influencer and someone else on her roster, so like, she really knows about this.

• 58:02Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 58:02Josh Clark?

  She was like, "Your dreams of writing off golf rounds and equipment are not gonna happen." She said, "But, if you travel for a golf trip that is part of the show," which is gonna be part of the show, when Adam and I do our golf trips, we're gonna like, talk about them and bring microphones and stuff. She said, "You can probably write off the travel."

• 58:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's good.

• 58:21Josh Clark?

  So like, plane tickets and hotel, maybe.

• 58:23Josh Clark?

  Okay. So, that's something.

• 58:26Josh Clark?

  It's big stuff. I'll let everyone know how the write-offs are going.

• 58:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I'll let everyone know that you went to prison.

• 58:32Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 58:34Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, that's Chuck's and Adam's podcast that's coming out, so keep an ear out for it, it's gonna be great. And in the meantime, you can always email us here at stuffyoushouldknow@[email protected].

• 58:53Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 59:08Josh Clark?

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• 59:50Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. I am here to talk to you about Dude Wipes, who offer fragrance-free wipes that are made with 99% water and plant-based ingredients. So they're gentle enough for sensitive skin, but they're tough enough for even the worst messes. Water cleans better, and Dude Wipes Flushable Wipes deliver textbook freshness and ultimate clean.

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