Selects: Chopsticks > Forks

In this classic episode, Chuck and Josh sit and converse on the simple, elegant chopstick. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:28Josh Clark?

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• 1:35Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. Chuck here. We are moving forward through time in the year 2020, the year of COVID. And I think we're at sort of ground zero here, everybody, because the date for this episode is March 17th. And I know that that was right around the time that things shut down because my birthday is March 15th, and one of my very good friend's birthday is March 12th. And every year, we go out on a birthday dinner with our wives and family. And I remember being out. It might have been like the 16th or 17th of that year to dinner and us being like, should we be out, you guys? Like, they're starting to say things are getting weird and we're all washing our hands and saying the ABCs and stuff, but this feels like maybe

• 2:19Speaker 02

  the last dinner we're gonna have for a while. And it was. That was the last dinner out I had for a very long time. But this episode from March 17, 2020, right when it all shut down, is pretty great. It's all about chopsticks and it's called Chopsticks Greater Than Forks.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 2:49Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W., Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry over there. And this is Stuff You Should Know, all about the song Chopsticks.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  I wondered if you were gonna make a joke about that. Jerry beat me to it. I mean, she was like, what are we recording today? And I told her, she's like, the song? Dun dun dun dun dun dun.

• 3:12Josh Clark?

  It's a good song. Dun dun dun.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Oh, is that Chopsticks? Are there two Chopsticks?

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  No, I'm just teasing. That's heart and soul.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. So what I said from Big, that was Chopsticks, right?

• 3:23Josh Clark?

  Totally, yeah. Robert, Robert Loggia?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 3:28Josh Clark?

  I should have continued trolling and said James Caan.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. That is a very James Caan-like role, though, isn't it?

• 3:34Josh Clark?

  Totally. I think he played that role.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  In Bottle Rocket?

• 3:40Josh Clark?

  In, well, he was a crime boss in Bottle Rocket, wasn't he?

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, sort of. Well, not sort of.

• 3:44Josh Clark?

  It was a good movie.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Truly.

• 3:45Josh Clark?

  We watched Misery the other day. It still holds up.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  Oh, man. I remember seeing that for the first time in Athens when I was in college. So great. Kathy Bates can do no wrong.

• 3:59Josh Clark?

  She did great, but if you watch James Caan, he did really well, too.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:04Josh Clark?

  His whole kind of trepidatious manner toward her was really well done and not overdone at all. And like, he did a great job as well.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  And he had to lay there in a bed for weeks and weeks.

• 4:15Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  And act.

• 4:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Sounds like a dream.

• 4:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And if he balked at it, they would attach a catheter to him and make him pee in his own mouth as punishment. Little known fact about that movie.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Oh, so chopsticks.

• 4:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  We should point out here that in researching this, chopsticks and customs and etiquette, if we covered all the countries and all that stuff that use chopsticks, we'd be here all day.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  So there's kind of a focus here on Japan.

• 4:47Josh Clark?

  Well, Japan, they seem to be a little, the most sensitive to transgressions with chopsticks out of all of the Asian cultures, I think.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Perhaps.

• 4:58Josh Clark?

  They have the most rules against them at the very least.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, but when you read them, it's, they could all be summed up as just don't be a dumb American.

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or don't have any fun whatsoever with your chopsticks is another way to put it.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  You're like, what's wrong with making them antennas in a restaurant and going, meep, meep, meep?

• 5:15Josh Clark?

  Right. I'm a walrus now. Why can't I be a walrus?

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:20Josh Clark?

  But we are talking chopsticks, not the song. Sorry to disappoint you, everybody. But I saw that that song is actually called Chopsticks because it was originally called The Celebrated Chop Waltz.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 5:31Josh Clark?

  Okay, written by a 16 year old schoolgirl from England.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Seems about right.

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  Sure. So, but we're talking about the utensils and like, when you think chopsticks, obviously you think like Asia.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:43Josh Clark?

  And you don't think that there was ever anything but chopsticks in the history of Asia. And while chopsticks are actually surprisingly old, I think they go back about 7,000 years. I also saw 5,000 years. I'm going with seven. I think they're, they're actually about as ancient as that. They weren't like the go to utensil for Asia until this millennium.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, the spoon was kind of the go to.

• 6:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, who knew?

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Uh, the word chopstick, they think, uh, may be pigeon English, Chinese pigeon English.

• 6:16Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  Uh, meaning chop chop or quickly.

• 6:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  But, you know, this is one of these, uh, etymologies. It's sort of tough to pin down, it looks like.

• 6:25Josh Clark?

  But that's the English word for it. In all of the chopstick using cultures, they have their own word. Like in Japan, it's hashi.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 6:32Josh Clark?

  It's kuwa izi in China.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 6:36Josh Clark?

  I'm not sure if I said that right at all. Um, geo garak in Korean.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  All right, not as, not as nice.

• 6:45Josh Clark?

  And doi doi dua in Vietnamese.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  All right.

• 6:49Josh Clark?

  I'm sorry, half of the world's population.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  I love that you started strong in Japan, though, because you feel pretty confident in your Japanese pronunciations. That's a good way to go.

• 6:58Josh Clark?

  Yes, I have a great tutor.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  That's right. So, uh, five to 7,000 years ago, they were used initially for cooking. And we'll get more into the ins and outs of the history, but they were made from twigs, um, probably. And it was much, much later, like you said, that they were table utensils.

• 7:20Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  And it was all very much like, uh, practicality based.

• 7:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because initially, they figured out pretty early on, these, um, the Chinese from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago, that's a really bad idea to stick your hand into a pot of boiling water to get something out of it. Say like a bone or a piece of meat or something like that.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 7:44Josh Clark?

  It's way better to use a twig and it's even better to use two twigs as if they were kind of a, a pair of detached tweezers.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 7:52Josh Clark?

  That's apparently where they initially started to come into use was during cooking and food preparation, not the actual eating process.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  That's right. Um, there was a big population boom in, uh, China at one point. Some might say there continues to be. And resources became a little more scarce. They started cutting their food up into little tiny pieces for reasons of like it helps it to cook faster.

• 8:19Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  I wonder, I didn't see anything about this, but I wonder if that also just made it more shareable among a larger family.

• 8:27Josh Clark?

  I could see that. That's a great point, too.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  And

• 8:29Josh Clark?

  Isn't it fascinating, though, the idea that a population boom led to widespread use of the chopstick?

• 8:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's interesting. And then Confucius also was a vegetarian and noted knife hater. He has a quote about knives. The honorable and upright man keeps well away from both the slaughterhouse and the kitchen, and he allows no knives on his table. And I think that was a little more because a knife was equated with eating meat.

• 8:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Less than like it's a garbage tool.

• 8:59Josh Clark?

  You don't need, you don't need a knife to eat a plant, basically.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, some might argue you might want to cut a piece of broccoli.

• 9:06Josh Clark?

  Maybe, but you don't have to. I just summed up Confucius. That's the level of arrogance that I'm operating at now.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  And I think some of the early, and you know, it started in China and then, you know, pretty soon, Korea, Vietnam, Japan, we're all using them. But I think that Chinese chopsticks were joined at what they are now, what are they called now with their joined? And you gotta split them apart?

• 9:35Josh Clark?

  Oh, warabashi. That's Japanese. That's the term for disposable chopsticks.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Okay, but I thought, I thought the Chinese chopsticks were originally joined like that. Yes?

• 9:44Josh Clark?

  No, it was Japanese.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:46Josh Clark?

  There was a single piece of bamboo that was like split, kind of like giant tweezers.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah, I'm reading this now. I had a, sometimes I can't

• 9:54Josh Clark?

  Wait, you're just now reading this, Chuck?

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Well, no, I get sometimes, and it's the dumbest thing, but I get confused between former and latter.

• 10:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  It's not that I get confused. I just have to go back and sort of

• 10:06Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  picture it in my brain.

• 10:07Josh Clark?

  It just takes an extra second, I think, for everybody.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 10:10Josh Clark?

  It's definitely not intuitive, so I don't feel bad.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  I also thought this thing about food poisoning was interesting was that in dynastic times in China, they would use, and I guess people that are a little more well-heeled, would use silver chopsticks because they thought that if it came into contact with something that was poisonous, then the chopsticks would turn black and they would know not to eat it.

• 10:35Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. I mean, it just makes sense. When you're rich and wealthy, more people want to kill you, so it's better to have something that shows if somebody's trying to poison you, like your chopsticks turning a color if you're being poisoned with cyanide or something like that.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:51Josh Clark?

  The problem is, it doesn't actually work. And I don't know why they didn't just think that through from the get-go, like, oh, well, let's get ourselves some cyanide and stick a silver chopstick in it and see what happens and see that it doesn't work. But apparently, it does work in the presence of garlic or rotten eggs because they put out hydrogen sulfide, so it will turn silver, a different color. So I don't know how garlic ever made itself into a staple of Chinese cooking, but there we have it.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the other thing I thought was interesting, and we should mention too, this came from a variety of places. Tegan Jones at Gizmodo, Lisa Brahman from Smithsonian Mag, Q Edward Wang from Cambridge Blog, Huff Poe, Believe It or Not, got in the works.

• 11:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  And some other places. But I thought that Q Edward Wang's history was really interesting because he mentions that wheat is kind of the first reason before rice, which really surprised me.

• 11:52Josh Clark?

  It was very surprising. I think he knew all along that that was the big reveal. You know?

• 11:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:59Josh Clark?

  But that's what gave chopsticks a shot in the arm. So first, we have cutting food into smaller pieces to have it cook faster, so you use less firewood.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:11Josh Clark?

  Right? Because there's a population boom. And then, as wheat becomes kind of fashionable and widespread.

• 12:19Josh Clark?

  You start to use chopsticks because you're making things like noodles and dumplings.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:23Josh Clark?

  And prior to this, millet was the, um, the go-to grain. And millet's really small, it's much smaller than rice. And you certainly aren't going to turn it into like a noodle or a dumpling. You make a gruel out of it.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 12:36Josh Clark?

  And so for thousands of years, the go-to utensil that people use to eat with in China was a spoon. Cause they were eating gruel or porridge or whatever, and everybody hated life. But when wheat came along and they started turning it into noodles and dumplings, they said, oh yeah, I remember those things that we use, those twigs to, to cook with. What if we made a smaller version of those to eat with too? And that's where the chopstick got its first like real boost in, in usage around Asia.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, try to eat a, a big spoonful of noodles and just watch as they flop off and sling, uh, delicious sauce all over, all over the place.

• 13:15Josh Clark?

  There is literally nothing more frustrating than trying to eat noodles with a spoon.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  In the entire world.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, sure, you could, uh, chop them up into tiny little pieces so they rest in your spoon with some broth.

• 13:31Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  But who, who wants to do that? Like the person that cuts up their biscotti at the table into tiny bits.

• 13:39Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Is a, a six-year-old.

• 13:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, or just thoroughly un-American.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  True.

• 13:46Josh Clark?

  One of the two, maybe both. Depending on how sophisticated the six-year-old is, you know?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Uh, the other thing I thought was interesting too, uh, from Mr. Wang's article was he talked about stew, which is gang in Chinese. Uh, they ate a lot of stew back then and, uh, chopsticks would be very useful for picking up things like the, the more solid objects in the stew, like the vegetables.

• 14:08Josh Clark?

  Right, so you've got wheat coming into, into vogue. You've got smaller pieces, vegetables, stew being eaten, chopsticks are like, come on, we're gonna do it, we gotta do this. We just need one more thing to get us over the hump and people are gonna know us everywhere around the world. And that one thing was a particular kind of Vietnamese rice that, uh, ripens early apparently. And it's a shorter grain or a medium grain, which means that it's easier to, um, it clumps more easily. It also has a lot of like starches to it. So it's this kind of clumpy, sticky rice. And here in the West, we're not really used to that kind of rice. So we're like, how are you gonna use chopsticks to eat this stuff?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Like, try eating some Uncle Ben's with chopsticks.

• 14:52Josh Clark?

  You can't do it. It's like trying to eat noodles with a spoon.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, or you would just do that move. And this is what I didn't understand when I was growing up, because I was a little naive. Uh, when I saw chopsticks, I would just think about scooping up the rice on top of them very awkwardly. And it wasn't until I was a little bit older and had good clumpy Chinese rice.

• 15:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  And Japanese rice, I was like, oh, it's very easy to eat with chopsticks.

• 15:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and you're just like, oh, okay, I've got it.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:20Josh Clark?

  Because it sticks together. It's like a nice little morsel of food. And it sticks together just about the right size and, and it's, it's totally different. So when you eat Chinese rice, or Japanese rice, or even Vietnamese rice, the stickier rice, then you understand, okay, you can use this as a, as, you can use chopsticks for this. And the Chinese figured this out as well, when rice became much more of a staple of the Asian diet. And all of a sudden now, you didn't need a spoon anymore, because everybody's like, to heck with millet. Who wants gruel? Nobody.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:53Josh Clark?

  So they threw their spoons out the window. And then they started just eating chopsticks for everything. You could use it for everything now. It's all you needed for your meal.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that all in one solution, I think, was, um, that happened in China and Japan and Vietnam, for sure. And Korea, I think, was the one standout, because I believe in Korea, the spoon and the chopstick still go hand in hand.

• 16:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and this, uh, I believe it was Q Edward Wang who maybe wrote this, but he basically said it, it seems to be a conscious decision.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Right, in Korea.

• 16:30Josh Clark?

  Almost as if they were being contrary, or something like that.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Maybe they just want to do their own thing.

• 16:35Josh Clark?

  Well, they eat a lot of very, very hot stews and soups. Have you ever had bude jige?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Uh, I don't think so.

• 16:43Josh Clark?

  I'm not even sure I'm saying it correctly. Have you ever been to eat at like H Mart, or like a Asian food court, or something like that?

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 16:50Josh Clark?

  If you go to a Korean place, they usually have, I think it's called bude jige. It's like hot dog soup, basically.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Oh, my lord.

• 16:58Josh Clark?

  And it's like this kind of, I'm not even sure, I guess it's a, it's like a chili paste broth. With lots of great processed meat in it and like ramen and like jalapenos. It's just so good. But that thing comes to you boiling and you're supposed to like eat the chunky parts out with it with a chopstick. But I guess it always comes with a spoon too. So I think you're supposed to actually eat the broth with the spoon rather than sip.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  I tell you, one thing I do love is the design of the, and I'm calling it the Chinese spoon. I don't know if it originated in China, but you know, the soup spoon I'm talking about.

• 17:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like the one you use for miso soup.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Oh, man, they're just the best.

• 17:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they do. They, cause you can get a really big spoonful on there, you know?

• 17:45Speaker 02

  And it's ergonomic. It just, it's the way to, it's the way to do it unless you're just gonna pick up the bowl and drink it, which is great, too.

• 17:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Up with the miso soup spoon.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  All right, let's take a break, cause I'm so hungry after you said hot dog stew.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  My stomach's growling. Uh, and we'll come back and we'll talk more about chopsticks.

• 18:24Speaker 02

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• 18:27Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, because it's a process. There's always something you could do or buy or update. The only question is what's next? For us, our animals just wear out our rugs so quickly. It's usually a new rug.

• 18:37Josh Clark?

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• 18:44Speaker 02

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• 18:56Josh Clark?

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• 19:22Speaker 02

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• 19:48Josh Clark?

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• 20:29Josh Clark?

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• 20:46Speaker 02

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• 21:05Josh Clark?

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• 21:36Josh Clark?

  I don't remember what episode it was Chuck, but do you remember when our stomachs growled in sync with one another?

• 21:41Speaker 02

  That was very recently.

• 21:43Josh Clark?

  It was?

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  You can still reminisce about recent stuff.

• 21:48Josh Clark?

  I say.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  I'm nostalgic for that thing that happened last week.

• 21:52Josh Clark?

  Pretty much.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  So apparently, and this, I'm not sure how accurate this is, but the four main kinds of chopsticks, apparently in China, the chopsticks are a little bit longer

• 22:09Speaker 02

  and a little more blunt on the ends.

• 22:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they think that might be a nod to Confucius, basically saying like, "Don't have knives at your table. Don't even have vaguely sharpened chopsticks even."

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Like, nothing stabby?

• 22:21Josh Clark?

  Nothing. You don't want to be stabbed at your table.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  I think in Japan, they're a little sharper and a little shorter. But you're still not supposed to be stabbing stuff.

• 22:29Josh Clark?

  No.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Don't stab that piece of tuna.

• 22:34Josh Clark?

  No, you can just tell if you've ever done that while you're doing it, that you're violating some unnatural law or something like that.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  It feels wrong, doesn't it?

• 22:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Let me see here. In Korea, apparently they are shorter as well, and they are also blunt, but they can be metallic.

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's one thing that we'll see, because we're going to talk about, as with everything in existence, there's some horrid environmental impact with chopsticks as well.

• 23:02Josh Clark?

  But the Japanese are like, "Give us cheap disposable wooden or bamboo chopsticks and basically nothing else."

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:10Josh Clark?

  They're just crazy for it. Whereas some of the other Asian cultures are like, "No, we can use reusable ones." But the Japanese are like, "No, we want nothing but disposable, cheap chopsticks, that warebashi."

• 23:21Speaker 02

  I assume that you and Yumi have your own chopsticks at home.

• 23:27Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  And do you bring those to restaurants?

• 23:31Josh Clark?

  Oh, no.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  No?

• 23:32Josh Clark?

  No, never do. We should.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  No, I know the feeling.

• 23:35Josh Clark?

  Everybody should, but...

• 23:36Speaker 02

  I usually think when I'm there, I'm like, "Oh, man, I should have brought my chopsticks."

• 23:40Josh Clark?

  Well, you know, I mean, like, if you go to any Asian store, they have like cute little, it looks almost like a pencil case, but it's, you know, chopsticks inside, and it's meant for you to carry them around with you, but... No one does that. You just don't. Even though, hopefully in 10 years, when we're all like, okay, this is out of control and this is really bad, everyone will be doing that. You just don't do it. And yeah, we have some that, like, I could just put in my jeans pocket and walk around with if I wanted to, but I don't do it.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I take my straw now and I use it because I now keep it in my purse.

• 24:15Josh Clark?

  Your murs?

• 24:15Speaker 02

  My murs, which goes everywhere with me.

• 24:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  So I need to throw some chopsticks in there.

• 24:20Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  And it's a good feeling when you say, no straw, I've got my own. And I would love to be able to say, no, no, you keep those wooden chopsticks.

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Take that straw and shove it where the sun don't shine.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 24:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  I'm not that aggressive about this.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  It's so funny, depending on where you are in the country, though, like, if they bring you a straw and you say, no straw, please, they look at you like you're just a straight-up democratic socialist hippie. You know, like you're trying to undermine the government or something like that. It's kind of hilarious.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. But other places now are, there's a couple of places in my neighborhood who have postings on the wall when you walk in talking about the impact of straws and that straws are upon request only.

• 25:08Josh Clark?

  Right. And if you got a problem with that, you can take a straw and shove it where the sun don't shine.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Right. Or you take that problem to the voting booth this fall.

• 25:17Josh Clark?

  Right. Exactly.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  So are you prepared? Because I have a feeling you do a better job than me at this because you so often have great convoluted ways of describing visual things.

• 25:29Josh Clark?

  I'm gonna do a great job describing it to you because you can watch my hands. But I think for everybody listening, it's going to be very problematic.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  All right. How do you use chopsticks?

• 25:40Josh Clark?

  All right. I'm gonna get you back for this one, Chuck. So...

• 25:43Speaker 02

  I did it intuitively, by the way, which is what I suggest.

• 25:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  I never read a thing.

• 25:48Josh Clark?

  Watch some people. I think reading it and having it explained makes it way harder.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 25:53Josh Clark?

  I think it's just one of those things you have to watch somebody do in practice. I mean, it's just all practice. But essentially, there's a couple of things to remember. Is that both chopsticks are laying... Do you want to go step-by-step through it?

• 26:07Speaker 02

  No, I think, I want the Josh method.

• 26:09Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, it's the same, it's the same method.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Or the Josh description.

• 26:13Josh Clark?

  Okay, so... In the valley between your thumb and your forefinger?

• 26:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:19Josh Clark?

  Okay, the webbing right there?

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 26:21Josh Clark?

  That's where the chopsticks rest.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  The thumb taint.

• 26:24Josh Clark?

  The thumb taint that showed, your hand showed.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Oh my god. Hand showed, great man name.

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  It really is. Wow, so the two chopsticks lay right there, okay?

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 26:38Josh Clark?

  One of them, the bottom one, is basically meant to be immobile and stationary.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  It just basically stays there. And it's the top one that you're moving, you're kind of holding with your forefinger, your index finger, and your middle finger. That's what you're using to move this top one. And so it's really the bottom one that stays basically stationary. And the top one is the one that's moving. And you're just using it to kind of pick up and tweeze food, or rice, or whatever with it. If you get really good, you can like pick your friend up with it.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Right, or catch a fly.

• 27:11Josh Clark?

  If you're sensei level.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 27:14Josh Clark?

  With chopsticks, for sure. But that's essentially it. And you don't want to hold it too tightly. If you're gripping it too tightly, or your muscles are too tense.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, relax, man.

• 27:24Josh Clark?

  You're not gonna be able to kind of make that tweezer motion very easily. Or you're certainly not gonna have much control. It's kind of paradoxical that the looser you have your hand, to a certain degree, the more control you have over the chopsticks and the tension that you're directing toward the end of the chopstick. So keep your hand loose, but in control. And just make sure you remember that the bottom one, that's kind of resting all the way along your thumb.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  The freeloader.

• 27:51Josh Clark?

  That one's basically stationary. And the top one is the one you're directing with your index finger and middle finger.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I recommend halfway through your meal, switch those two out. Because that bottom one is just along for the ride. And it needs to do a little work, you know what I mean?

• 28:06Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  So just switch them out and make that one the topper. And give it, you know, make it do a little sweat, sweating.

• 28:14Josh Clark?

  I think that's pretty good, Chuck.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  Do a little sweat.

• 28:17Josh Clark?

  I think we deserve a Peabody Award for describing how to use chopsticks. No visuals.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  Uh, you did talk about the environmental impact a little bit, but it is a real problem. I mean, you see these tiny little things. And you think, what's the big whoop? Like, a tree can probably make a gazillion chopsticks. So they need like-

• 28:36Josh Clark?

  That's true.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Maybe 10 trees in China to make all the chopsticks they need.

• 28:40Josh Clark?

  Do you, do you remember that, just one thing, do you remember that cartoon? It might have been a Simpsons or something like that, where they chop down a tree and they show them processing one single tree into just an individual toothpick?

• 28:51Speaker 02

  No.

• 28:53Josh Clark?

  I'm pretty sure-

• 28:53Speaker 02

  That sounds like Simpsons.

• 28:54Josh Clark?

  It had to be the Simpsons, you know? But imagine if they're like, no, we, we make one chopstick out of just a single tree.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  I didn't think about toothpicks, man. How many toothpicks can you get out of a tree?

• 29:04Josh Clark?

  I, I don't even know. Their, their problem, they're on the horizon.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Right, but when you think about the fact that China alone produces 80 billion disposable chopsticks every year.

• 29:16Josh Clark?

  Oh my god.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Then you get a little bit more of a sense of exactly how many of these trees. Uh, and it says here, there was, I can't, I'm trying to find out what year this is. It was, it was fairly recently. Um, but they've had like parliamentary meetings and stuff about this in China. And they estimated that it takes about 20 million 20-year-old trees to cover their annual rate of production.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, a guy named Bai Hua Jin. Pretty sure I said his last name correctly.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:45Josh Clark?

  Um, he, he's like a representative from the Jilin Forestry Industry Group. And he really like rocked everybody at a parliamentary meeting where he basically said, hey, do you remember that old figure that everybody has been touting for years? That we actually use 57 billion chopsticks a year? Produce 57 billion chopsticks a year? He said, that's way off. It's actually 80 billion. And like you just said, we need 20 million 20-year-old trees to meet that. A year.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:16Josh Clark?

  And people said, wow, that's kind of a problem. And so around the, around the world, like Chi- so of that 80 billion, I think China, half of them stays in China. Of the other half-

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wondered about that.

• 30:29Josh Clark?

  Seventy-seven percent goes to Japan.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 30:31Josh Clark?

  And Japan was actually the one that started all this. They, they came up with disposable chopsticks, Wari Bashi, all the way back in 1878. And have just been crazy for them ever since.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  Like, you can go to like, a pretty high-end restaurant in Japan, and they're going to have wooden chopsticks-

• 30:48Speaker 02

  That you pull apart?

• 30:49Josh Clark?

  Bamboo chopsticks, yeah, that you, you would pull apart. Though, there are also plenty of restaurants in Japan that have reusable ones, and they're much more elegant or whatever, but it's not like, you wouldn't just walk in and be like, what is this? Disposable chopsticks? Are you kidding? Because they're just such a part of Japanese culture. So they use seventy-seven percent of the other half. Korea uses 21%, and then 2% comes to the United States.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Is that all?

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  I have to couch that, that was 2011 figures, which is the latest I could find.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm kind of surprised that, um, I would think China and Japan, it would just seem like they would, like, everyone would have their own, and it would be a very, like, prideful thing to take care of your chopsticks and to have something cool-looking.

• 31:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  It just kind of surprises me that they're so down with the disposable.

• 31:34Josh Clark?

  It surprises a lot of people, especially, Japan is like, really well-known for being meticulous-

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:39Josh Clark?

  With recycling and, and reducing waste and stuff like that.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Just doesn't fit.

• 31:43Josh Clark?

  Um, yeah, it's just this one thing, they really love their disposable chopsticks. And they just throw them away. They're not being recycled or composted or anything like that. They're just being thrown in the trash. So some, so, what I read is that some restaurants will offer, um, you know, tea, uh, for free, if you bring your own chopsticks, or maybe like a discount-

• 32:06Speaker 02

  You get that tea for free anyway.

• 32:07Josh Clark?

  But, um, yeah, basically. But the, there's not like, a lot of, there's not a huge amount of movement in Japan. Where China, and this is, I think I read this in like, a, like, a New York Times Green Blog or something like that, um, China's made some, some moves, like, like taxing, uh, disposable, adding an extra tax to disposable chopsticks, I think.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  More regulation, basically, overall, I think.

• 32:32Josh Clark?

  Which is really saying something, you know? I mean, um, there's, there's like, apparently a whole- Sub industry to the disposable chopsticks industry that is small enough that it escapes a lot of oversight.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 32:45Josh Clark?

  And they can be really problematic, like there can be a lot of chemicals in these chopsticks.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 32:50Josh Clark?

  They're just like an all around basic nightmare. And it's just such low hanging fruit. All everybody has to do is just have their own chopsticks. But just people just won't do it. And I'm guilty too. Like I said, I mean, we, we have reusable ones at home, but we don't take them out of the house ever.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, plus the, uh, the paper used to encase the said chopsticks, that's a lot of paper too.

• 33:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it is.

• 33:13Speaker 02

  And what do you do with that stuff? You just rip it open and burn it at the table.

• 33:17Josh Clark?

  Throw, yeah, yeah. Yep, it's true.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Should we take another break?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. All right. We'll take another break and talk a little bit about etiquette, uh, right after this, cause we're all doing it wrong to a certain degree.

• 33:54Josh Clark?

  We've all done it, tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong?

• 34:12Speaker 02

  That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeart Media's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends.

• 34:30Josh Clark?

  Not to cancel them, not to hype them more, but to actually understand them. Cause when it comes to your health, who you listen to matters. Start asking better questions and listen to Health vs. Hype on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:50Josh Clark?

  You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next unless something starts to feel off, because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction. Signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system. The constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance, and why they seem to be on the rise, to how digestion changes as we age, and what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.

• 35:33Josh Clark?

  Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect, and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  That's Alan Goya, planning engineer at AT&T. And he's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, redefining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  It was going to rival anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 36:22Josh Clark?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 36:28Speaker 05

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 36:37Speaker 05

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 36:42Speaker 04

  What the fans experience is incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 36:45Josh Clark?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love. Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 37:07Josh Clark?

  Okay, Ms. Manners, lay it on 'em.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  That's Dr. Mrs. Manners.

• 37:12Josh Clark?

  That's right, PhD esquire.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  So, this is mainly Japan that we're concentrating on with etiquette. And like you said, I think they take it a little more seriously than some other Asian countries. Because it turns out that chopsticks can and have had an important part in burial rights.

• 37:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  And funeral rights, Buddhist funeral rights.

• 37:37Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm, like, a lot of the taboos, I guess you'd call them, over chopsticks in Japan, and in other Asian countries, too, are kind of based on, like, whoa, that's kind of something we do with funeral rites, and so that reminds us of that. Japan is not crazy about being reminded of death, or mortality, or pain.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Same here.

• 37:57Josh Clark?

  All that stuff is very unlucky. Like, the number four is unlucky, because the word for four, I think "she" also sounds very much like the word for death.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Right, I think I remember that, that, so they don't have four elevator floors? Is that right?

• 38:13Josh Clark?

  I don't, I don't remember if they do or not, but let's just go with that they don't.

• 38:18Josh Clark?

  Because it sounds pretty great.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  So, etiquette level one is how this is presented. There's a couple of levels here, as far as, like, you really shouldn't do these things, but if you really want to ramp it up, you shouldn't do these things as well.

• 38:32Josh Clark?

  I felt these were kind of willy-nilly, didn't you?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, this is one person's opinion.

• 38:36Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  But the things that you really shouldn't do are the following. Do not, if you, like, get up to go to the bathroom, don't stick your chopsticks sitting upright in your bowl of rice.

• 38:49Josh Clark?

  No.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  And that has to do with the household Buddhist altar, because it is, a bowl of rice is offered as to a dead person's spirit, and this apparently is from a beautus, beautist?

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Buddhist funeral rites as well, because there's a photograph of a bowl of rice. And to stick chopsticks in the middle of that would be forbidden.

• 39:18Josh Clark?

  I think it's, they'll have like a photograph of the deceased and they give them a bowl of uncooked rice. So they, and they stick the chopsticks up in that.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. I read that completely wrong.

• 39:27Josh Clark?

  So it's reminiscent of that, that like, so that's, so it's got that death thing going on.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  The death angle?

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then the other thing I saw about that too, is that it also is reminiscent of a, like a bowl of sand with incense sticking out of it. That you would also put on a Buddhist shrine to the deceased. So they're like way too reminiscent of death for that to be okay.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Okay, that makes sense now.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  There's another one that's very similar. Don't leave your chopsticks crossed.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:56Josh Clark?

  Like resting on your bowl or on your plate. Just don't cross your chopsticks. It's impolite, basically for the exact same reason as sticking them out of the bowl.

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Right. And I think that one is one you see like on food, Instagram food posts a lot.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  From Whitey saying, you know, like cross the chopsticks because it looks cool or whatever.

• 40:15Josh Clark?

  Look at how cool this looks.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, not cool apparently. We talked about spearing.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  The advice here is to treat them as if they are actually connected, even though they're not. It's a good way to remember it.

• 40:27Josh Clark?

  Like pretend connected.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 40:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And remember, this is like, I think that goes back to like Confucius.

• 40:35Josh Clark?

  Where it's like, don't, don't have a knife at your table. Don't use your chopsticks to spear food.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  That's right. Apparently it's bad luck, or not bad luck, well, maybe bad luck to use two different chopsticks.

• 40:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  They should have the same mommy and daddy.

• 40:53Josh Clark?

  This person said that it's just unsightly and that it's also reminiscent funeral rites. That one I couldn't, I couldn't figure that one out.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:00Josh Clark?

  There's, there's another funeral one too. A lot of funeral rites involve chopsticks. Passing food from chopstick to chopstick, like if you're like, hey, you gotta try a bite of this.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  That's just hard to do.

• 41:11Josh Clark?

  You hold it up. It's, it's, but it's kinda, it's a little bit showy.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:16Josh Clark?

  If you can do it.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Look at us.

• 41:18Josh Clark?

  But, um, but when you, you know, if somebody grabs it with their chopstick, that's how they pass bones from cremations during funeral rites too. And they're like, nope, that reminds us of that as well.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. And there are some of these that are just like, I can't believe people do this. Do not wash your chopsticks off in your beverage.

• 41:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's gross.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Someone do that?

• 41:36Josh Clark?

  I don't know. Apparently somebody has. The other thing about this is, so the fact that they have restrictions on this, social restrictions, means that people have done it before. But they also go so far as like, most of these things all have like individual words. That's how like agro the Japanese are about this, this kinda etiquette.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:55Josh Clark?

  They have words for that, like washing your chopsticks off in your drink is not just called

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:59Josh Clark?

  Washing your chopsticks off in your drink.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  There's a name for it.

• 42:02Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Uh, let me see here. Do not treat them as toys. And we talked earlier about, um, putting them in your mouth like they're fangs or walrus tusks or antennas or drumsticks.

• 42:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  Just not a good look.

• 42:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  Uh, here's another one that is, um, this is a sort of one that I, I think happens a lot is, uh, you might see women, uh, American women maybe do their hair and put chopsticks in them. Those, when you see that in Japan, those are not chopsticks.

• 42:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  It might look like chopsticks, but they're actually called kanzashi.

• 42:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it'd be kinda like sticking a fork in your hair.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 42:40Josh Clark?

  If you're walking around Japan looking like that, they'd be like, why do you, why do you have that fork in your hair?

• 42:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:45Josh Clark?

  It looks a little off. But yeah, that, like, they look just like those things, but there is a separate thing.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 42:51Josh Clark?

  What did you call them?

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Uh, kanzashi?

• 42:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, nice. It's a beautiful word.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  I mean, I didn't make that up.

• 42:58Josh Clark?

  Right, I know.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 42:59Josh Clark?

  I know. Another one is, you'll very frequently see people do this, and I've done it too, and it's apparently acceptable under certain circumstances, but when you break your warabashi, your disposable cheap chopsticks apart at the end, if there's splinters or there's like a piece of wood sticking out, you can rub them together.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  I always do that.

• 43:20Josh Clark?

  Soften the wood or get the splinters off. But you're not supposed to do that as just like a matter of course, because you're basically insulting the restaurant. You're saying like, these are so cheap, these chopsticks that you're providing your guests.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:35Josh Clark?

  That like, I gotta rub them together. And you definitely don't want to like make eye contact with the owner while you're rubbing it together. Like, this is what I think of your establishment. And people do that all the time.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  I do it.

• 43:48Josh Clark?

  It's almost like habitual.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  It's habitual for me, and I started doing it when I first started using chopsticks, because I saw the person I was with did it, and I was like, I guess that's what you do, you get those little splinters off.

• 43:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  And now it's a total habit, and my whole thing there, I don't think that one's a really big one, like, especially in America, it happens so much, I don't think anyone, a restaurant owner is like, super insulted by seeing this.

• 44:12Josh Clark?

  Sure, yeah, especially in America.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  But they are super cheap, and they do splinter.

• 44:16Josh Clark?

  Right. Well, in that case, yes, like that proprietor has brought it on himself or herself for providing everybody with such cheap chopsticks that they're splenary.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  I will always remember this now, I'll tell you that.

• 44:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and this is, so I agree with you, I think that this is probably not that big of an insult, especially in America. It probably falls in line with like how you're not supposed to like put your wasabi in the soy sauce or something like that. Well, if you want to, just do it.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 44:44Josh Clark?

  You know, if you want to be remarkably polite, then you wouldn't do any of these things. Some are way worse than others, and I think that one probably. Probably falls into the lesser category, even though it's under this advancing. This is why I was saying this seems willy nilly.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we also covered some of this in our sushi episode. Because if I'm not mistaken, don't you eat sushi with your fingers? Or am I wrong?

• 45:08Josh Clark?

  Don't you?

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Don't you eat with your fingers, or do you not?

• 45:12Josh Clark?

  No, I don't. I love showing off how great I am at chopsticks. I use them every turn.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  You got some skills?

• 45:18Josh Clark?

  Every time I can, yeah. I eat millet gruel with chopsticks. That's how good I am.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, or you, I've seen you just flip up a shrimp and catch it in the other one. What a show off.

• 45:30Josh Clark?

  It's pretty great.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Because you have chopsticks, you have four, you have two in each hand.

• 45:34Josh Clark?

  Yes, basically.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  And you do a little sideshow there. It's really impressive.

• 45:38Josh Clark?

  Edward Scissorhands.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Josh Chopstick Finger.

• 45:41Josh Clark?

  But no, you're supposed to eat sushi, specifically nigiri.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:46Josh Clark?

  Right, with your hand. That's how it was originally done, if I remember correctly from our sushi episode.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 45:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but yeah, we use chopsticks these days.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Here's another no-no is do not use chopstick as a rake. Like, don't lift up a bowl of rice and just sort of rake rice into your mouth.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  So that's Japan. I saw in China, that's perfectly acceptable and normal.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 46:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it gets dicey with, it's not the same everywhere, you know?

• 46:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, here's the thing, I don't know if we said this before. So in Thailand, they don't use chopsticks, almost as a rule. In Vietnam, Korea, Japan, China, they're totally ubiquitous. Almost the only thing you're gonna find that you eat with. And so that means that like even a bowl of soup, like miso soup, you're supposed to use your chopsticks for that. Like the little chunks of tofu.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:37Josh Clark?

  Took me a second. You use your chopsticks to eat those out of the bowl and then you slurp the rest, or sip the rest, depending. But with rice, you would hold the bowl up kinda close to your face, but not like up in your face, just under your chin and out a little bit. And then you, you know, eat the rice with your chopsticks from there, lifting the rice up to your mouth, not shoveling it into your mouth from the bowl.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  Right, and I saw with soups and things also is if you really wanna ramp up the etiquette, you should try and drip into the bowl.

• 47:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, right. When you like, when you are picking up the tofu, you want to kind of shake the tofu off so it doesn't drip on you or on the table.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:20Josh Clark?

  If you really want to excel etiquette, you would just not eat anything. You'd just sit there quietly with your chopsticks, side by side, still in their wrapper, just smiling politely at everyone.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  It's like, didn't break any rules and I'm really hungry.

• 47:33Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Uh, there's a couple of more here. Don't point with your chopsticks.

• 47:38Josh Clark?

  That's tough not to do.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Do you point?

• 47:42Josh Clark?

  I don't point at people, you know, or anything like that.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  But you're like, hey, that thing.

• 47:45Josh Clark?

  Can you pass me that thing right there?

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you just sort of give a little nod, like, hey, that, that pot sticker over there.

• 47:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because they're fun to hold and point with and like, do stuff with. I just, I, I don't know. Maybe I'm still, it's still novel enough to me that I have to remind myself not to, to point. Or Yumi has to remind me not to point with the chopsticks.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Or when you're talking and you're expressing things with your hands and you're using your chopsticks.

• 48:11Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Or if you want to just do a little maestro routine.

• 48:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  You know?

• 48:15Josh Clark?

  That's looked down upon. Or if you, if you're using your hands for something else, you don't stick your chopsticks in your mouth and just hold them in there while you're like, moving plates around or something like that. You set them down. And here's the other thing, too. If you go to a very nice restaurant in Japan, or in the States, and it just happens to be a Japanese restaurant, how about that? Really prolong this thought. Um, they're gonna give you a chopstick rest.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 48:43Josh Clark?

  You set your chopsticks on, so they're kind of lifted off of the table.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:46Josh Clark?

  The end that you put in your mouth. If you don't have that, you can take that paper wrapper and roll it up and make your own chopstick rest.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  That's right, because you're setting your chopsticks down on a table.

• 48:58Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Uh, that could be, you know, have germs.

• 49:02Josh Clark?

  Right. And speaking of germs also, Chuck, you never, ever use the chopsticks that you're eating with to serve yourself from a communal plate or bowl.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  That's for sure.

• 49:13Josh Clark?

  They should give you like a spoon or something like that to spoon it onto your plate and then you use your chopsticks. Because that's just germy and diseasey. And apparently, um, there's a, a, a, uh, like a supplement to that. Where if they don't give you a serving spoon, people flip their chopsticks over and use the thicker end.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 49:33Josh Clark?

  Shovel the food onto the plate, which is not necessarily anymore hygienic because that's where your hands have been. Rather than your mouth.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Well.

• 49:40Josh Clark?

  But that's the more socially acceptable thing to do than just using the business end of your chopsticks.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  I don't know why that's so funny to me.

• 49:52Josh Clark?

  Got you.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  But the ends though, I mean, if you're using them right, you're choked up a little bit. So they're not really being touched by your hands, you know?

• 50:02Josh Clark?

  True.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Like you don't stick the, the ends in your palm.

• 50:05Josh Clark?

  That's right. It's true.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  You choke up on it like a, like a baseball bat.

• 50:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they say in Korea, apparently that the, the further down though you hold the chopsticks, the longer it's going to be before you get married.

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, we could talk about some of these kind of fun, fun facts.

• 50:21Josh Clark?

  Fine.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Uh, let me see here. One is, uh, if you are given an uneven pair, you will miss a boat or a plane.

• 50:29Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  And this is, it came from Malaysia. I'm not sure if that's ubiquitous all over Asia.

• 50:34Josh Clark?

  I think it's Chinese.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:37Josh Clark?

  I think.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Uh, what else here? This is kind of fun. Um, if you use chopsticks, it involves, uh, over 50 muscles, uh, in the fingers and 30 joints. And the, um, well, overall in the fingers, arms, shoulders and wrists.

• 50:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Pretty cool.

• 50:54Josh Clark?

  It is. I mean, how many you use for a fork? Like two?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 50:58Josh Clark?

  Give me a break. Um, I saw a couple of things, um.

• 51:04Josh Clark?

  One is that there was a study that found that eating popcorn with chopsticks makes eating popcorn much more enjoyable than eating it without chopsticks with your fingers instead. And they even controlled for the amount of extra time it takes to eat popcorn with chopsticks. It's not just that you're eating slower, so you're relishing it more. Cause they had a control group using their fingers eat at a very slow pace too. And apparently they think it's just the fact that you're doing something differently makes you appreciate the thing that you're doing or that you're eating that much more. Like if you pour water out of like a separate, you know, water bottle, like at a restaurant, how they have like the little chilled water bottles they'll bring over.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  Look at you fancy pants.

• 51:48Josh Clark?

  Would taste better than water that you just poured out of the tap, even if it was the exact same water, because it's being conveyed differently.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's also how you would get popcorn to last through the opening previews of a movie.

• 52:02Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  Cause you're not just shoveling it into your mouth like I do.

• 52:06Josh Clark?

  It's so bizarre, man. I do the same thing.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  I've tried to do the like couple of kernels at a time. And you know, I do that for the first few and then before you know it, I've just got handfuls that I'm pushing into my mouth.

• 52:20Josh Clark?

  Right, right. That's how you have to do it. You have to use the palm of your hand to really shove the entire fistful in there. You can't just use your little fingertips. It doesn't work. You'll choke on them.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  And I don't know if it's a sort of a subliminal desire for me not to be distracted during the movie. But the ideal, in the ideal world, I would just sit there and munch a couple of pieces at a time for two hours.

• 52:47Josh Clark?

  Like just chew them a million times?

• 52:49Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Just eat a couple of kernels at a time and just really elongate the whole experience.

• 52:54Josh Clark?

  Take, put those chopsticks in your mers and take those to the theater.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  People would be like, look at that guy.

• 53:01Josh Clark?

  Hey, though, you have to be careful, though. Yes, they, yes, they would. You have to be careful, though, who you brandish those chopsticks around because, so you put this together. Kudos for that. One of the facts you came up with is that there's something called consecutela- phobia. Consecutela- phobia, I think I said, which is literally a fear of chopsticks.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a fear for everything.

• 53:27Josh Clark?

  But, but, yes, but I was reading a blog post on it on some, maybe PsychNet, I think. And they were saying, like, there's basically two categories of phobias. Ones that are semi-rational, like they use the example of a fear of sharks.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:42Josh Clark?

  Well, if you did run into a shark, there's a chance you could be killed by that shark. So it's not just totally bonkers to be afraid of sharks. But a phobia of sharks is an irrational fear. Like, maybe if you live in Kansas, you got no reason to have a fear of sharks. This, this one, they said, this basically qualifies in the bonkers category. Like, there's virtually nothing that chopsticks can do to hurt you. So to be irrationally afraid of chopsticks, where you feel like heart pounding anxiety, is, is, is a genuine dyed-in-the-wool phobia. But some people do apparently experience this, although it's super rare.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 54:20Josh Clark?

  But you'll, like, avoid entire types of restaurants because you can't be around chopsticks. And you'll get anxious just thinking about being around chopsticks.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  That's so sad because Asian food makes up a large portion of my diet.

• 54:35Josh Clark?

  Well, luckily for you, you don't have consecutela- phobia.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  No, I mean, when I think about sushi, I think about pho. I think about ramen. I think about good old fashioned Sichuan Chinese food.

• 54:51Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  Think about Korean.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I could eat that. I could eat that all the time.

• 55:00Josh Clark?

  Dude, you've got to get some Bude Jigay. I'll take you to go get some.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  All right.

• 55:03Josh Clark?

  You're gonna, you're gonna love it. It's so good.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  I can't wait.

• 55:07Josh Clark?

  Uh, you got anything else?

• 55:08Speaker 02

  I got nothing else.

• 55:09Josh Clark?

  Forty-five minutes on chopsticks, baby.

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Not bad.

• 55:13Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about chopsticks, go get yourself some that you can reuse and eat conscientiously with them. And don't forget all the manners, but just go eat some Asian food because no matter where it's from or what it is, it's probably pretty good.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 55:27Josh Clark?

  Since I said that, it's time for listener mail.

• 55:32Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm gonna call this two for two. Hey, guys, I wrote a few years ago about Alan Alda and thought I'd share a Sammy Davis Jr. story.

• 55:39Josh Clark?

  Oh, wow.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Uh, and this is from Andrew Lindberg in Pittsburgh. And he got his Alan Alda one read. And when I told him this was coming on, he wrote back, two for two, baby.

• 55:50Josh Clark?

  Nice. Yeah, there's people out there who are like oh for 10.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  I know. I'm so sorry.

• 55:54Josh Clark?

  I assume. It's not like we're keeping track of people like that.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  Oh, no, I have a spreadsheet.

• 55:59Josh Clark?

  Turn the screws on. Oh, you do?

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, that's me.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  Uh, he says, so in the eighties, Sammy had been cleaned out by his ex-wife and was selling barbecue sauce. Uh, he was in Pittsburgh to promote it. And my friend Larry, who had a local TV show at the time, got a chance to interview him. Uh, when they arrived at the hotel, they were told they would get 20 minutes with Sammy. But when they talked to Sammy's manager, he said only 10 minutes. So instead of having time to set up a two-shot interview, and for people that don't know the lingo, that means both people are in the same camera frame.

• 56:30Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  Uh, they kept the camera on Sammy and Larry would then go back and add his footage later. So he would, I guess, re-ask the questions with a ghost Sammy, just to edit it together. At the end of the interview, they needed one, just one two-shot of the two of them together so they could edit it realistically. And Sammy's manager said, nope. And Larry looked at Sammy almost begging because they needed the two-shot. Sammy took a long drag of a cigarette and said, get your two-shot, babe.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  The manager then said, oh, well, I guess I'm the a-hole, to which Sammy said, as a matter of fact, babe, you are an a-hole.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  So this is how the story goes, apparently. And then Andrew says he's been listening since '08 and went to that live show in Pittsburgh. Please come back.

• 57:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  And he says he has a podcast now called The Pittsburgh Oddcast.

• 57:25Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  And he said, "We average about 1,500 listens an episode," which is pretty darned good, Andrew.

• 57:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it is. Nice work, Andrew.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  For a self-styled show. That's not bad at all.

• 57:35Josh Clark?

  Especially a local one, too. Pittsburgh Oddcast.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Pittsburghians, if you're from the Berg, check out The Pittsburgh Oddcast. And Andrew.

• 57:44Josh Clark?

  Or even if you're interested in it.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 57:47Josh Clark?

  In Pittsburgh.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  You might live in Philadelphia and just be a Berghead.

• 57:52Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Well, that was a pretty great one. Thank you very much. Two for two. That's pretty impressive, Andrew. And if you want to get Chuck to do any Sammy Davis Jr. impressions, write in with your own Sammy Davis Jr. story and see how it goes. And you can put that in an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to [email protected].

• 58:18Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 58:34Josh Clark?

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