Let's Go to Camp... David!

Camp David is awesome. But not all presidents have liked it. We'll dig into this historic property in today's episiode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:36Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:46Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know about Camp David.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  That's right. It's about Camp David, but we're going to quickly mention that we are going on a cruise, everybody, Virgin Cruise. The voyage is the Big Apple to Bermuda.

• 2:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  And it is an adults-only cruise wherein you can cruise with us, hear our live podcast, hear stuff they don't want you to know, and some of our other colleagues' live podcasts, and hang out with us and do, there's like other events on board. It's gonna be a lot of fun.

• 2:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's gonna be a huge amount of fun. I think you just go to virginvoyages.com or you search "stuff at sea" and it will take you where you need to go to register for this cruise.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:36Josh Clark?

  It's October 2nd to 7th.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  That is correct, and I'm already working on my tan and trying to drop a couple of pounds.

• 2:43Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. What else?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  To make sure I'm seaworthy. That's about it.

• 2:45Josh Clark?

  Are you practicing shuffleboard?

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Practicing shuffleboard and cards.

• 2:52Josh Clark?

  How many hats will you be bringing?

• 2:55Speaker 02

  In all seriousness, I will definitely bring my smaller, kind of cool straw hat and probably my big, big sunshade straw hat.

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  Okay, good.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  And maybe, maybe a baseball cap.

• 3:10Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  That big, that big floppy sunshade hat that says "Do Not Disturb" on it?

• 3:16Speaker 02

  No, no, no. It says "Bikini Inspector."

• 3:19Josh Clark?

  Federal Bikini Inspector.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it.

• 3:23Speaker 02

  I couldn't remember what it was. Oh, man.

• 3:25Josh Clark?

  Oh, man. Well, it's funny that you mentioned federal anything because we're talking about the federal government, and this is the best segue we could come up with. Camp David is this rustic retreat that the President of the United States is able to use to get away, ride horses, spend Christmas, try to broker peace in the Middle East, you know, the usual stuff.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. I requisitioned this from, I think this is Libya. Oh, it's gotta be because of the title.

• 3:59Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  The sleepaway camp for very serious grownups. And I really love what she came up with, and I love this episode already because I am a person that is, I don't know where it came from, but I am really interested in operations and like...

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Like operations, like how things operate. Like if I go to like Cirque du Soleil, I'm wowed by the thing or Broadway show. But half of my brain is obsessed with how it all works.

• 4:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  And how they do what they do. And now I feel like I really understand not only the history of Camp David, but kind of a little behind the scenes of how it all goes down. And I just, for some reason, I love that stuff.

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, I know that about you. Although just now I thought you were talking about operations like swapping an arm and a leg or something. Cause that is interesting.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Or the game operation.

• 4:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, these operations that you're fascinated by take place in Kerakton Mountain Park. It's in the Blue Ridge Mountains. It's in Western Maryland. And we're not supposed to really get that much more specific, although if you really look on a map, I'm pretty sure you could find Camp David. But at least initially, when the first president Franklin Delano Roosevelt took over, it was meant to be like a top secret place.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:21Josh Clark?

  But it wasn't always a presidential retreat. It started out, I guess, under FDR as a New Deal project initially.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  That's right. In the 1930s, we kind of were able to look around at things like the Dust Bowl and say, hey, we've done a pretty bad job with a lot of our agricultural practices. And there's been, you know, haven't treated our land as well as we should. So the federal government said, let me, let's buy up some, what they called sub marginal lands around the country and see if we can rehabilitate them, see if we can do other stuff with them. And this was one of those areas. It was in 1936 when they purchased about 10,000 acres in the Katoakken Mountains. It's about 55 miles from DC. And the soil was pretty ruined there, just like I said, from bad agricultural practices

• 6:12Speaker 02

  and industrial purposes over the years. But it was in a nice area. It was like lovely countryside, lovely forest. You know, creeks and streams and ponds and all kinds of like great stuff to recreate around.

• 6:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, as long as you didn't look too close at the three eyed fishes and stuff like that. You're like, this place is amazing.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 6:31Josh Clark?

  So the government took over, they renamed the area, the Kedokton Recreational Demonstration Area, which is a great name.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:40Josh Clark?

  It almost, like this early part of it sounds almost Soviet.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does.

• 6:45Josh Clark?

  The, um, the Works Progress Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps built camps there. Some of the original, um, idea was that it was going to be a recreation area for federal workers and their families. The only way it could have gotten more Soviet is if like it had used brutalist architecture.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, which didn't really fit in those lovely green woods.

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  No. But, uh, FDR, he was like, that's great. I'm glad you guys are doing that. I'm going to be out here cruising on the presidential yacht, the USS Potomac. And it was known as the Floating White House. There's another one still today called the Sycamore that I think was JFK's presidential yacht. You, me and I looked into, you can rent it for events and we were gonna, um, have our wedding on it.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 7:33Josh Clark?

  It holds like a limited number of people and we could never get the guest list down. So we're like, oh, we're just gonna go elope.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good idea. Uh, to elope, that is.

• 7:44Josh Clark?

  Thanks.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, they don't have things like that anymore because by the time the Second World War rolled around, they were like, maybe having all these important people like floating out in the middle of the ocean isn't a great idea. And FDR was looking also to, um, get away to someplace that was a little cooler in the summer.

• 8:02Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Uh, because he had bad sinus problems. And I don't think we mentioned the name of this one particular camp inside this larger area that would become Camp David was originally, um, finished in 1938. It was called Camp High Khatatkin, uh, H I dash Khatatkin. And so by the time FDR is like, all right, I can't be on that boat. I gotta go somewhere that's good for my sinuses. Uh, he said, you know, let me see, what, what do you got within a hundred miles of DC? And in April of 1942, they took him to Camp High Khatatkin. And he was like, hey, this, this seems okay.

• 8:37Josh Clark?

  He says, this is fine.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:40Josh Clark?

  What's funny about that is apparently it was also a secret site around the same time for the OSS, the predecessor of the CIA, for training spies in like close quarter pistol combat. There was something called the House of Horrors. There's a cool little Atlas Obscura article about it.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 9:02Josh Clark?

  Where you would go into this like haunted house and they like, instead of ghosts, they were pop up cardboard Nazis and scary sounds and conversation being played and like the, the hallways were angled in weird ways and it was dark. So it was very disorienting. And you had to kill every Nazi in the place or else they would kill you because you knew too much by that time, probably.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  That's right. So that's just a weird coincidence.

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  Or is it?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  So the, obviously the presidential yacht was, was run by the Navy. And so they said, all right, why don't we just let the Navy run this new retreat since they're in the sort of retreat business, even though it has nothing to do with being on the water. And it was launched as at an installation called the Naval Support Facility, Thurmont. And Thurmont is the, the name of the area. When they hatched the idea for like Roosevelt to start going there, they would say, all right, well, we're going to place 100 Marines there. We're going to put up a security fence with an alarm on it. And he said, we also got to change this name. No one knows what high Khatatkin is and it's hard to pronounce. So I read this book, Lost Horizon by James Hilton, and he talked about the Himalayan

• 10:16Speaker 02

  utopia of Shangri-La. And that sounds really cool. So let's rename it Shangri-La. And they said, well, you're the president. I guess we have to.

• 10:23Josh Clark?

  They're like, we think that's terrible, but okay.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Apparently that book is where the, like the name Shangri-La came from. It was like a super popular book. Have you read it?

• 10:34Speaker 02

  I have not.

• 10:35Josh Clark?

  Neither have I. So it wasn't until, I think, 1942, the FDR started using the camp. Of course, he very frequently used a wheelchair, so they basically made it ADA compliant before there was such a thing as ADA.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:54Josh Clark?

  And he was like, all right, I came up with Shangri-La, let's keep this role I'm on going. I'm going to call the presidential cabin, the Bears Den. And everyone's like, you're president again. And they called it the Bears Den.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  That's right. They initially spent about, close to 19 grand fixing the place up. And they had a little doghouse next door for his dog Falah, which is really cute. And so he would go there and chill out at Shangri-La, I can't wait till they change that name, by the way. And also started the practice of what would become a thing of hosting foreign leaders there. And kind of like, you know, getting away from the rat race in DC. Legend has it that he and Winston Churchill planned, I don't know if it's legend, I think that part is fact, planned some of the D-Day invasion from one of the cabin porches there.

• 11:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  And like, would sit around and drink bourbon and smoke cigars, do a little fishing. I think this is the legend, apparently, on one of the trips, they were driving back to DC and they made a stop at a restaurant in Thurmont called The Cozy Restaurant, because Churchill had heard of these jukeboxes, and he'd never seen a jukebox. So apparently, they stopped there, Churchill went in and got a beer and just marveled at the jukebox.

• 12:08Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, and The Cozy Restaurant was around until 2014. It was legendary, because, I mean, if you were, you know, not quite of high enough status to actually stay at Camp David, you stayed in Thurmont and you probably ate at The Cozy Restaurant. So it was around for years.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  You could see Churchill there, apparently.

• 12:28Josh Clark?

  You could. Can you just see him, like, just standing over the jukebox mesmerized?

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Just like laughing, "Look at these things, it's flipping records."

• 12:37Josh Clark?

  So you want to take a break and then come back and talk about, I don't know, Camp David?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Sure, let's do it.

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• 13:14Josh Clark?

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• 14:08Speaker 03

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• 14:10Josh Clark?

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• 15:13Josh Clark?

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• 16:18Josh Clark?

  So FDR was there. It was like a camp camp. Rustic keeps getting batted around as a word to describe Camp David. And today, it's still used, but apparently back in FDR's time, at the beginning of all this, like, it was rustic. And then when FDR died in 1945, Harry Truman, whose taste did not run to the rustic. Instead, he liked to hang out at the Little White House on Key West, that, you know, rather than in the woods outside of DC.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:52Josh Clark?

  He's still kind of, he was a good custodian of it, I guess. He ordered like the brush to be cleared back. And he ordered heating, a heating system to be put in so it could be used year round before it had only been used during the nice, nice months out of the year. But he didn't use it very much.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Now, you know, it seems, reading through the history, that...

• 17:18Speaker 02

  How you view Camp David if you are president? Kind of goes back to like what you're into.

• 17:25Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  And, and the people that enjoyed it seemed like people that were like, yeah, I love going. I like people that are probably into like being in the woods and that kind of scene. And if you're not into that kind of scene, like you said, Truman, he, I guess he was a beach guy because he liked Key West.

• 17:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  And our current president very famously kind of hates Camp David.

• 17:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Cause we, we see his taste and it's certainly not rustic cabin in the woods kind of thing.

• 17:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  And you've seen other presidents that go there and like, seem like they have a really, really great time.

• 17:55Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  And we're going to get into some of that, but it's just interesting. Like it's sort of foisted upon you as president. It's like, all right, here's your camp. And then half of them seem they're like, I'm not really into this kind of thing.

• 18:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think a significant number just keep their mouth shut about it, but don't really enjoy it very much. But yes, it is expected of you to visit Camp David at some point in time during your presidency. But yeah, some of them definitely appreciated it more than others.

• 18:24Josh Clark?

  Ike Eisenhower, Dwight D Eisenhower, when he took over in 1953, he was like, this is a needless luxury. Let's get rid of it.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, he seemed like he didn't maybe love it, but his attorney general, Herbert Brownwell, he went there for an inspection and he's a guy who loves that kind of thing. He, he, he loved it and he came back and he sent sort of a joke that seems like it was like, but I'm kind of serious. A petition for executive clemency. And so Eisenhower was like, all right, fine, we'll keep Camp David. We should mention that it's a, it's a part of a almost 5,900 acre area that Katahdin Mountain Park, but it's only about 150 acres of that. Livia found other, and I did too, some other sizes potentially for the size of Camp David, like 143, 180, 125, 200.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  She said it was oddly inconsistent, but I have a feeling that may just be part of the sort of subterfuge of not giving away too much.

• 19:23Josh Clark?

  Sure, sure.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Maybe, maybe not, but you know, it's somewhere between, let's say 140 and 200 acres.

• 19:29Josh Clark?

  All right, I'll, I'll go along with that.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  All right, you're in for that?

• 19:34Josh Clark?

  You referenced that Eisenhower relented and didn't get rid of what was still called Shangri-La at the time.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:40Josh Clark?

  He said that the name Shangri-La was, quote, "just a little fancy for a Kansas farm boy." So he renamed it Camp David, and we can stop saying Shangri-La now, Chuck.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Yay.

• 19:51Josh Clark?

  And he named it Camp David after his five-year-old grandson, uh, whose scholars now realize was the one calling the shots during the Eisenhower administration.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Uh, interesting, that's very funny, by the way, but interestingly, that guy, the grandson David, now runs the Institute for Public Service at University of Pennsylvania School for Communications and teaches a course called Communication in the Presidency. So that's kind of cool. And I bet you, at the first day of class, he was like, "Yes, I'm that David."

• 20:23Josh Clark?

  I'm that David, Dennis.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:25Josh Clark?

  One other thing about Eisenhower, the president, Ike, he was the one that warned the country in his farewell address about the growing, uh, threat of a military-industrial complex. He was actually a pretty sharp dude who had the country, the country at heart.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, he was sharp enough to not want to drive there, the 55 miles, because he had a helicopter, uh, pad built on the site. So now it's just a half an hour to get there on, I guess, uh, a marine one? Yeah?

• 20:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  And he said, "We should also have some more fun stuff to do here. So let's put in a screening room, a little movie theater, let's put in a bowling alley, let's put in a golf course." And they're like, "We can't put a whole golf course." He was like, "Just one hole?" And they said, "Sure, we'll put in a golf hole. Uh, it'll have some different tee boxes to give it a little variation." And he said, "Well, while I'm renaming things, um, this presidential cabin, um, I don't like Bear's Den, and I have a feeling he didn't like FDR." And he changed it to Aspen in honor of Colorado, where his wife Mamie grew up. And then that started the tradition of naming all the camps' cabins after trees.

• 21:36Josh Clark?

  Yes, which still goes on today. It's a longstanding tradition.

• 21:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that goes back to the 50s, apparently. One of the other things that I don't know if Eisenhower ordered it, or if they were just like, this needs to happen. There was a construction of a bomb shelter in case of nuclear war. Because again, this is the 50s and the Cold War was really heating up, I guess. It could accommodate 50 presidential employees. I saw as much as 150 defense staffers.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 22:04Josh Clark?

  If a nuclear war broke out. And it was, a bomb shelter is underselling it. It was called the Presidential Relocation Spot. I don't remember the last word, but spot will do. Where you could run the country like out of, like underground, essentially. And it's still there today. And we'll talk a little bit more about it later. But one of the things that I found interesting is that when Richard Nixon came along, he ordered a heated swimming pool to be built right next to the presidential cabin. And I guess the only place to put it was right smack dab on top of the bomb shelter.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 22:46Josh Clark?

  And it cost like 260 grand in early 1970s money to reinforce the bomb shelter. So the pool could be put on top of it. That's just so Nixon.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of cool, though. It's a cool looking pool. It's like a little figure eight. And, you know, as we'll learn, well, I guess we're going to learn it right now. There aren't a ton of pictures of Camp David. Like it's, I wouldn't say it's veiled in secrecy, but they, they don't put a ton of stuff out there. Like the press has never really been allowed there. It's like a true retreat. So the only pictures that have ever been put out are like when an administration and it's like Obama's like, hey, put out this picture of me doing a water gun fight at the pool with my daughters. Cause, um, cause it's super cool and I look awesome.

• 23:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was looking over the photographer's shoulders as they were skimming through him. He's like, that one, that one, I look pretty cool.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's like, can you do something about my elevens and my crow's feet?

• 23:38Josh Clark?

  He said, you need disport.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  So Nixon put in the swimming pool and then he also is responsible for building the Laurel Lodge, which is the biggest building there. It's where a lot of the meetings are held, a lot of the bigger dinners are there. And it replaced the previous Laurel Lodge, which is smaller, obviously, and that one was renamed Holly, the Holly Lodge. Uh, and then Reagan came along as a, as a religious guy. It's like, we need a chapel here. We need a non-denominational chapel.

• 24:07Josh Clark?

  Really?

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Well, what, really? Did he ask for that or that they needed one?

• 24:12Josh Clark?

  That you're not going to say it like Ronald Reagan?

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Well.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Okay, that's all I'm gonna say.

• 24:18Josh Clark?

  All right, that's good enough.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Uh, so that, he got that going, but it didn't actually open until H W Bush's administration. It's called the Evergreen Chapel. Uh, previous to that, um, if you were a religious president, uh, like Georgia's own Jimmy Carter, very famously religious, uh, he would hold Sunday services in Hickory Lodge.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, apparently there was only one wedding, which kind of surprised me and that was George H W Bush's daughter Doro.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  I mean, you guys looked into it. You couldn't get your, you couldn't get the guest list down.

• 24:47Josh Clark?

  We couldn't find the place.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that was a problem.

• 24:50Josh Clark?

  Uh, W, George H W Bush's son, uh, he spent a lot of time, I think both, um, H W and W Bush both, um, spent Christmases at Camp David.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, they loved it.

• 25:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And, um, as W's term was coming to an end, he had the basketball court refurbished for, uh, his successor Barack Obama because Barack Obama famously loved basketball.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Man, what a.

• 25:18Josh Clark?

  What a class act, right?

• 25:19Speaker 02

  What a, what a different time, you know? It's crazy.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. All right. Moving on. Um, so we mentioned earlier, like, you know, it's, it's a retreat for sure, but, uh, it's also where some very famous diplomatic meetings have taken place and that started in 1959, uh, when Ike, as Josh calls him, cause you're so friendly, uh, to each other. He invited Khrushchev there, Soviet Premier Khrushchev, um, to, you know, do what you do there, which is like get a little more informal setting, get people out of the rat race of DC and try and connect a little more personally. And that's always sort of been the reason why they take people there. And so, uh, Khrushchev. Sort of like Churchill was just sat around and gawked at the jukebox at the cozy restaurant.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Apparently Khrushchev was just marveled at the bowling alley's automatic pinsetter.

• 26:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I call Khrushchev Nicky.

• 26:16Speaker 02

  I think he just, yeah, well, he says, call me Nicky when he's bowling. But he just kept saying-

• 26:22Josh Clark?

  That's what it says on his bowling shirt. That's what's stitched on-

• 26:24Speaker 02

  He kept saying, knock, knock pins down again. I would like to see pins set.

• 26:28Josh Clark?

  Very nice. Did I send this to you, that little, the little extra stuff about the bomb shelter?

• 26:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 26:36Josh Clark?

  So they were-

• 26:36Speaker 02

  On top of the pool or under the pool? Wouldn't on top of the pool be a very bad place for a bomb shelter?

• 26:40Josh Clark?

  Right. They, they were building this when Khrushchev came and visited Camp David in 59. Yeah.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  What's that over there?

• 26:49Josh Clark?

  Right. They didn't want them doing that. So they built a deck over it. That was temporary, but didn't look temporary over the big hole that they'd excavated. They hid all the excavated dirt. And there's pictures of Khrushchev on the deck waving, clearly doesn't know what he's standing on top of.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  He said, does someone hear echo every time I speak?

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  In Soviet Russia, echo hears you.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Oh, man, that's a good fact. I like that.

• 27:14Josh Clark?

  The echo thing, hearing you?

• 27:15Speaker 02

  No, just building the deck. It seems like something out of, like a zany comedy or something, you know?

• 27:21Josh Clark?

  It totally does. I can see Peter Sellers like rushing around.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had a strange love vibe too.

• 27:27Josh Clark?

  And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, though, some foreign dignitaries and leaders did not enjoy going to Camp David. Harold Macmillan, who was Prime Minister of the UK during Ike's term. He did not like going because apparently Ike would make you watch westerns during movie nights.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:50Josh Clark?

  And Macmillan can, I also call Harold Macmillan Mac. Mac called them inconceivably banal movie nights.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 28:00Josh Clark?

  And I can imagine that, like, you gotta be kinda into westerns to enjoy like a western anytime, you know?

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, Emily doesn't like westerns at all.

• 28:10Josh Clark?

  I like- Like weird westerns, like the remake of True Grit or Dead Man or, you know, stuff like that. But like the classics, I've never gotten into, although I do like um, the, the Wild Bunch. That's a great movie.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Oh geez, yeah, Sam Peckinpah.

• 28:27Josh Clark?

  But I've never, I don't think I've ever seen all of the magnificent seven. I'm like, I've just never really gotten into good westerns, although I do love Sam Raimi's The Quick and the Dead, too. See, I like weird westerns.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a name for that. It's not revisionist, it's uh.

• 28:44Josh Clark?

  Weird westerns?

• 28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's a different word. We'll just call it weird westerns, but I know what you mean.

• 28:50Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Like Australia puts out some cool westerns like that.

• 28:53Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. Like Nick Cave's one?

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, I think you'd like Magnificent Seven, by the way. That's, that's one that you probably would dig.

• 29:00Josh Clark?

  It seems like you'd be right. I maybe I just need to give it another shot.

• 29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's one. Um, after the Bay of Pigs, uh, JFK invited, what did, what'd you call him?

• 29:11Josh Clark?

  Uh, Jif.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Jif. He invited Ike back to the camp to consult a little bit. Uh, I think, you know, he just trusted his foreign policy experience, uh, experience. And there was a very famous photograph taken on that trip. AP photographer Paul Vathas won a Pulitzer Prize in 1962 for his picture, uh, Serious Steps. Uh, it's this great black and white of JFK and Eisenhower kind of from the rear, walking up a wooded path. It's a very cool picture.

• 29:38Josh Clark?

  Right. With JFK saying, we are screwed, and Ike saying, you are screwed.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  That's right. I'm not president.

• 29:46Josh Clark?

  Uh, probably the most famous thing that happened at Camp David was the Camp David Accords.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:53Josh Clark?

  Um, that was between Menachem Begin, who was the Prime Minister of Israel at the time, and the President of Egypt at the time, Anwar Sadat. And it was presided over by Jimmy Carter. And Carter and his aides really did about the best job you could possibly do in trying to get Israel and any Arab country, in this case, Egypt, to strike some sort of peace agreement. And um, it's still.

• 30:25Josh Clark?

  Like it's revered, especially in the United States as like this great success. But if you look at it further down the, down the pike, it didn't work out all that well. But still, this was about as good as you could expect. It's certainly the best it's ever been done at Camp David.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, at the time, it was remarkable to even get those guys in the same room, much less go to camp for almost two weeks. I think they're there for 13 days. And again, you know, the reason they do this is to get away from the media, to have some real privacy, to, to connect as humans.

• 30:59Josh Clark?

  To maybe find love.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Little footsie under the table.

• 31:03Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  They watched movies together, apparently Anwar Sadat hiked the trails each morning. Carter very purposefully didn't even use the larger room. He went to that, that initial meeting room, which was renamed Holly, because he thought it was more intimate. And he loved it there, you know, Carter loved it, but the guys found it kind of, you know, they were used to the wide open desert. And so they found it kind of dark and gloomy. But, you know, one of the, the pluses of being isolated like that is if things start going south, they just, they can't run and like jump in their car and be at the airport in 10 minutes.

• 31:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and the press isn't there to provoke hostility in order to like get a great quote or to stir things up for better, better press or whatever.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:48Josh Clark?

  I also saw that Jimmy Carter watched Star Wars with Anwar Sadat, and that is not a joke.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 31:56Josh Clark?

  That's what they watched at Camp David.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  That, that's amazing.

• 32:00Josh Clark?

  So Ronald Reagan, I think aside from the Camp David Accords, I associate Camp David with Ronald Reagan more than anybody.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  He loved it, man.

• 32:09Josh Clark?

  He loved going and playing cowboy.

• 32:14Josh Clark?

  When he was during, when he was president.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, he loved it, very famously loved riding horses. Nancy loved it. They, they would go there like a lot on the weekends, like their little weekend retreat. Because again, it's a 30 minute helicopter ride and all of a sudden you're at this. Uh, you're, I think being away from the press is a really big deal.

• 32:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think that's a huge part of it.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, just to go check out. So he would host World Leaders there. He recorded his weekly radio addresses there. The Bushes loved it, too. Like you said, they spent Christmases there, both, you know, father and son. And apparently W. used it for some post nine 11 strategy sessions. And Obama liked it a lot, too.

• 32:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no word on what Biden did with it. He's apparently being erased from history.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Obama moved the G8 summit there. I think it was supposed to be in Chicago. And, um, you know, he gave the reasons that he usually give was to get away from everyone and kind of have a more free flowing discussion, but other people are like, I think you're probably also trying to avoid protesters.

• 33:17Josh Clark?

  Right. Because if the press can't get there, I can tell you protesters can't.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I mentioned, uh, Donald Trump not really liking it very much. I think in 2017, he said it was, quote, "very rustic." And then said, "You know how long he'd like it, for about 30 minutes." So it's not his scene, and I think no one is surprised about that, but he has used it. Uh, I think kind of when he has to. I think, um, last year he used it for a retreat regarding Middle East strategy. So more Middle East strategy taking place at Camp David.

• 33:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Uh, okay, Chuck, I say that we take a second break, and when we come back, we're going to really get into your favorite part. How this place operates.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 34:15Speaker 02

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• 34:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, while other security systems react once a break in is begun, SimpliSafe is built to keep threats away from your door in the first place.

• 34:36Speaker 02

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• 34:52Josh Clark?

  Yep, SimpliSafe has you covered. And they also have a great offer. You can join the more than 6 million people who entrust SimpliSafe with their home security. Right now, save 60% off with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/stuff. SimpliSafe.com/stuff. And when you order, write in "stuff you should do" in the checkout survey. It lets them know we sent you and it helps to support the show. So, thank you. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 35:21Speaker 02

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• 35:56Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. Cozy season is upon us, and that means crisp mornings, that means soft layers, and that means Bombas.

• 36:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Bombas makes your comfiest fall staples, so you can make the most out of one of the best seasons of the year. Bombas has new suede moccasins that are perfect for fall because they have cushy soles, a sheerling lining, and they're made of water-resistant suede.

• 36:17Speaker 02

  That's right, and their slippers are everything you'd want for a cozy night in, made with the softest, squishiest materials.

• 36:21Josh Clark?

  And of course, Bombas has socks. Not just any socks, socks for every type of weather, every type of occasion, because fall can be fickle, and Bombas makes socks that can handle it all. And the best part about Bombas, for every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  So, head on over to bombas.com/sysk and use code SYSK at checkout for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash SYSK, using code SYSK at checkout.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  All right, so we're back to talk about operations. I'm so excited. Its official name is the Naval Support Facility, Thermon. Obviously, still operated by the Navy, like I said. And most of the work there are members of the Civil Engineer Corps, who are known as the Seabees.

• 37:29Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  And if you're a sailor and you're stationed at Camp David, first of all, congratulations. I imagine that's pretty awesome as an assignment. But it's a 36-month tour, so you're there for about three years. And you may be a cook, or you may be able to, you may be a hairdresser, or you may be able to like, ride horses and teach people to ride horses. Or you may be a licensed lifeguard.

• 37:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you're not a guard, though. A guard-guard, though, that's the Marines, as we'll see.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 37:58Josh Clark?

  There are other organizations or other departments that handle different parts of it. The Public Works Department, they handle maintenance of the building, the grounds, the electrical systems, the vehicles. Anything that starts to break down, Public Works is probably on top of it. The Operations Department, they handle arrivals and departures of aircraft. That would include Marine One, Chuck. That's Aircraft Two.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 38:25Josh Clark?

  They handle electronics, they handle firefighting.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:29Josh Clark?

  Which means that they're in charge of the VCRs and VCR fires there at Camp David.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  That's right. Oh, man, you know that VCR's got some hours logged, too. So it's a fire waiting to happen, I think.

• 38:42Josh Clark?

  It's got Big Trouble in Little China stuck in it right now.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  I love that movie.

• 38:47Josh Clark?

  That's so great. That might be my favorite movie, man. That is such a good movie.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a classic. I keep trying to get Ruby to watch it, and she hasn't yet. But I know she's gonna love it.

• 38:57Josh Clark?

  She will love it, yep.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a good one. Uh, supply department deals with finances, accommodations and food service. Uh, it's a big part of it there, obviously. Uh, and that is an extension of the Navy's presidential food service department. This is the stuff I love. Like you never think about like, yeah, somebody buys groceries for these meals for the White House and elsewhere. But, uh, it, it, it's gotta be like a rigorous thing as far as the chain of command and like as far as poisoning and stuff goes like, it's not just somebody shopping for food. So they handle all that stuff and all the catering and all the dining services.

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  I've got something for you since you like how all this works.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yay.

• 39:37Josh Clark?

  I read about that, um, when they buy groceries, the first family pays for their own groceries. Did you know that?

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 39:44Josh Clark?

  Everything else is essentially free. They have to pay for the food they eat, aside from like state dinners and stuff like that. But the family eats groceries that they pay for. They get a monthly bill every month. And I think it was Michelle Obama who said that they learned the hard way that you should ask how much different things that you're putting on your grocery list costs because

• 40:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:04Josh Clark?

  you can get sticker shock from the monthly bill.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I guess that's how Trump, uh, it was so well versed on the price of eggs.

• 40:11Josh Clark?

  I guess so.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  He probably went over that bill at the end of every month and was like, this is how much eggs are?

• 40:16Josh Clark?

  I wonder if they jack the prices up or if they're fair or they get a discount or something, but I, I would like to know that. But yes, I, I'm fascinated by that too. Somebody buying groceries in that situation.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I bet how it goes down is either it's a very specific like place that they shop or it's like just totally secret and no one has any idea that it's, that's what they're shopping for.

• 40:40Josh Clark?

  Good point. It could, yeah, it could definitely be. Maybe there's two. There's like a decoy shopper too.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  All right.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  They have a shirt on that says, you know, presidential grocery list.

• 40:53Josh Clark?

  Federal body inspector.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  It's like when, uh, well, on that note, it's like when Michael Keaton wore the FBI shirt in, uh, Oh, what was it? No, I can't think of it. The, uh, Out of Sight.

• 41:06Josh Clark?

  Hmm, I don't remember that.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  The great Steven Soderbergh movie with, uh, J-Lo and George Clooney. I think, I think he wore like an FBI T-shirt, like while doing FBI raids and stuff.

• 41:16Josh Clark?

  That's funny. I didn't even know he was in that movie. I haven't seen that one either.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  He's got, oh, boy, Out of Sight is great.

• 41:22Josh Clark?

  I know, you've told me that.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  A great, great one.

• 41:25Josh Clark?

  All right, I'll, I'll check it out. That and Magnificent Seven, basically the same movie, I'm sure.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:31Josh Clark?

  Uh, Chuck, I also said that if you were on a hitch in the Navy, assigned to Camp David, you probably weren't a guard, and that's because the Marines guard it. Um, specifically, the Marines from the Eighth and I Street Barracks, which is a barracks in DC, um, they've pretty much from the outset been responsible for guarding the camp.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Uh, I think when it was first, um, built in 1957, they only went there when the president was there, but then Ike, Josh's buddy, said, you know what? We should probably just have people there all the time, uh, guarding the place. And I think 71, 72 is when the Marines formed Marine, uh, Security Company.

• 42:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Uh, as a permanent company, and I think they are on about a 18-month tour when they're stationed there.

• 42:16Josh Clark?

  Right, and everyone there has Yankee White clearance, which is very frequently referred to as a security clearance level. It's not, it's a, um, specific type of background check. I think it's the deepest background check that they perform, and everyone who works near the president has that kind of background check done.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it involves a, uh, surgical glove, if you know what I mean.

• 42:41Josh Clark?

  There was one other thing, too, that Olivia pointed out that I hadn't thought about, but I'm sure it's quite true. For the people who just work there, like during times when the president's not there, there's probably not that much to do, and then all of a sudden, there's everything in the world to do right now when these, like, the president does come, and there's like a summit or something like that.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, they're feeding themselves and the staff and they're keeping up with the grounds and all that, keeping the grass mowed and everything clean.

• 43:11Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  But yeah, when, when the dignitaries come around and the president comes around, it's, I imagine a high-stress situation because a lot of these people that come, like we mentioned, with, you know, these leaders in the Middle East are coming to a completely different scene that they're used to, and a lot of them are, have very specific religious accommodations that need to be made and meal accommodations that need to be made, whether it's like kosher food or like getting alcohol removed from a cabin or putting prayer rugs in the proper spot. So yeah, there's a lot of hoops you gotta jump through to make sure everyone feels good about being there and also like that the accommodations are kind of on par with one another and like, he got, he got the better room.

• 43:55Josh Clark?

  Right, well, yeah.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  You don't want that happening.

• 43:57Josh Clark?

  I mean, some of the cabins are nicer. There's obviously ones that are closer to Aspen, the presidential cabin than others. So figuring out who stays where is like a huge, hugely important part of all this. I mean, like, we're talking about some of the most fragile egos in the entire world.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, plus, I mean, if you're a foreign leader, you want to be close to the president's cabin so you don't have to go far for the middle-of-the-night sneak-out, make-out sesh.

• 44:25Josh Clark?

  That's right. Skinny dipping in the pond behind Aspen.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 44:29Josh Clark?

  So, if you are a hiker in this area, you can actually get accidentally close to Camp David. And the way that you will find out that you accidentally got close to Camp David is because a Marine's going to suddenly emerge from the woods and tell you to turn around right now.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  It's like Rambo?

• 44:51Josh Clark?

  Pretty much, yeah.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  It's like hiding in the ground as a pile of leaves?

• 44:54Josh Clark?

  Right, yeah. Or like he's covered in mud and he suddenly opens his eyes.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Oh, God, I remember that one. That was a good one.

• 45:00Josh Clark?

  So, yes, and the reason why you could accidentally stumble into this, Chuck, is because intentionally, there's no signage saying like, "Welcome to Camp David" or "Stay away from Camp David." Like, it's still meant to be semi-secret and it's those Marines on patrol that are essentially the first line of defense perimeter-wise.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, you know you're getting close if you're on your lovely hike and you see a sign that maybe says, "No photography." Out here in the middle of the woods or no loitering and then you're like, oh, I bet you I'm getting close to Camp David.

• 45:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Uh, and then, you know, the eye in the mud comes out and you know, you're done for.

• 45:38Josh Clark?

  Um, also, if you're a plane and you get too close, you're probably going to have a fighter jet suddenly come out of nowhere and say, hey, follow me to Reagan National Airport.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, uh, airspace is restricted, um, to 5,000 feet above sea level and a three mile zone when the president isn't there, uh, when the president is there, it's 10 miles. Uh, and, uh, what else we got? Well, should we talk just a little bit about some of the, some of the lodgings?

• 46:06Josh Clark?

  Sure. I think we'd be remiss if we didn't.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Well, there's about 20 cabins, uh, and then obviously other buildings. Uh, you got that presidential cabin, which is four bedroom with a kitchen and an office and a patio. Uh, and that swimming pool is right there. So if you see that picture of Obama playing with his kids at the pool, uh, the cabin in the background, that is the one.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  That's Aspen, baby. The former Bears Den.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 46:30Josh Clark?

  There's Laurel Lodge. We talked about that. It's a huge conference rooms, dining room, all it's like the official, it's the most official probably of all the congregational areas, right? Hickory Lodge, when you want to blow off some steam and look, just watch the pin setters in action, that's where you're going to hang out. There's also a bar there so you can get soused.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  And maybe a hookah, hookah pipe?

• 46:53Josh Clark?

  Sure. Oh yeah. There's definitely a hookah lounge and a cava bar as well.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Um, okay.

• 46:58Josh Clark?

  There's a gift shop in Hickory Lodge, Lodge. Like, do they actually charge foreign leaders for like a postcard or something? And are the foreign leaders buying a postcard at Camp David?

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Well, I know that Cruise Jeff, uh, very famously bought a shot glass. Camp David shot glass and a little license plate with, he couldn't find his name, but he just, he found one that said Nick.

• 47:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  And he was like, close enough.

• 47:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And on the shot glass that said, I got nuked at Camp David.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I want to go there so bad. It does. I did see a picture of the actual Camp David sign, and it looks like a, like, you know, teenager, like, camp in the woods camp sign. It's awesome.

• 47:43Josh Clark?

  Right. Like, it's, yeah, I can imagine exactly what it looks like.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:47Josh Clark?

  It's kind of chiseled in, the yellow lining inside.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  That's the one.

• 47:52Josh Clark?

  Uh, what else you got? Horse shoes, skeet shooting? Oh, there's the last thing I think we should put in there, Chuck, is that they all ride golf carts there. Apparently, it's

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:04Josh Clark?

  one of the funnest aspects of Camp David, which I think says a lot about Camp David, is that there's a fleet of golf carts, and the president's is called Golf Cart One.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:16Josh Clark?

  That was George W. Bush who came up with that.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  That's right. And they've called it that ever since. So you can, you know, shoot the skeet. Yeah, I think there's a second swimming pool for the staff and play a little tennis if you want. Have you ever shot skeet?

• 48:29Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. It's funny. I was driving from Chicago to Akron, and I was passing by fields that my dad used to take my sister and I out to, to shoot skeet.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Oh, did you have one of the flingers?

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have only done it once, and it's, it was at a skeet shooting facility in wine country in California.

• 48:49Josh Clark?

  It's fun.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  And I was, I loved it, and I was pretty good at it.

• 48:53Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 48:54Speaker 02

  I had never shot shotguns like that before, and like, I was, I was hitting them.

• 48:59Josh Clark?

  Pull!

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was fun.

• 49:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it is fun. Like, we'd go out with a big old box of those clay pigeons and shoot them up. I don't remember whether I was good or not, but, I mean, I was probably 10 years old, holding a 12-gauge shotgun.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I loved it so much, I was like, oh, man. I found online, there's like a club south of Atlanta, and I'm gonna buy a shotgun and like, become a member. And, of course, I never did any of that, but I am looking forward to going again one day.

• 49:25Josh Clark?

  Somebody has Christmas coming up.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 49:28Josh Clark?

  Uh, okay. Well, I think we're done with Camp David for now, right?

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good one.

• 49:33Josh Clark?

  Until you go there and you can report back.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 49:37Josh Clark?

  Well, since Chuck said that's right about going to Camp David and reporting back, it's time, of course, for listener mail.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Uh, this one is a follow-up on Roar. Uh, "Hey guys, just wanted to write in about a brief thing Josh said in the Roar episode. I'm summarizing, but he mentioned at one point that a movie shouldn't have the same writer, director, and star because they needed to keep one another in check."

• 50:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Sort of like the branches of government.

• 50:02Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Uh, "This really isn't a thing, Josh. Chuck was on the spot, came up with a good example in Clint Eastwood, but couldn't think of any others, so I will mention Spike Lee, Woody Allen, John Cassavetes, Mel Brooks, Kevin Costner, a guy named Orson Welles. More modern examples include Ben Affleck, Bradley Cooper, and Billy Bob Thornton. Some even act as editors and camera operators, sometimes under fake names for reasons I think have to do with unions, but I'm not sure. Uh, anyway, I hope young filmmakers hear this because encouraging students to write, direct, and star in their own short films is a great way to learn the craft and get things done." And that is Sylvie, not Sylvia.

• 50:42Josh Clark?

  Thanks, Sylvie. I appreciate that. Thank you for setting me straight eight ways till Sunday. Uh, if you want to be like Sylvie and set me straight and give all sorts of great examples to back your point up, that's fantastic. You can put it in email and send it off to [email protected].

• 51:03Speaker 07

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 51:13Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. ShopToyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 51:45Speaker 08

  In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military.

• 52:08Josh Clark?

  Introducing Voices of Vivgard. Vivgard is also known as its generic name, Fgard Tigamod Alpha Fcam. And this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 52:41Speaker 07

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.