Selects: What is a Numbers Station?

If you think secretly coded messages sent via short wave radio is Cold War relic, think again. In this classic episode, Chuck and Josh are here to dispel that myth, along with many others relating to numbers stations, including why they might still be operational. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:34Josh Clark?

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• 1:40Speaker 02

  Hey, happy Saturday, everybody. Chuck here. I hope you're enjoying your weekend. I hope you're enjoying your year, your month. I hope you're enjoying the very hour in which you are coming across this. It is the select episode for the week. And I'm picking this one because I honestly don't remember much about it and I got to listen to it.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  So maybe I'll learn it all over again. It's about number stations and it's called, What is a Number Station?

• 2:09Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:19Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And this is, oh Jerry.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25Josh Clark?

  And this is Stephanie.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  7, 4, 2, 5, 8.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  Can you say it in German? You speak German. Don't even jog me.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Zwei, drei, fünf, acht, sieben.

• 2:40Josh Clark?

  Now, can you do that in a little girl voice?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  You're just toying with me.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  Come on, do it.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  No, you always make me play St. Polly Girl. I'm tired of it.

• 2:50Josh Clark?

  St. Polly Girl. No, this is apparently even younger than the St. Polly Girl. It's like a little girl. And it was a live little girl.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Who?

• 3:00Josh Clark?

  In the Swedish Rhapsody number station.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:03Josh Clark?

  It was a young, a little girl.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:06Josh Clark?

  Reading out numbers and letters in German.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Which makes it even creepier.

• 3:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:10Josh Clark?

  Supposedly it was very creepy.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  This is a very neat subject, so kudos to you for tossing this one out there.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Well, I've been waiting for it to publish.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:18Josh Clark?

  I'd seen it in the calendar coming up and coming up. I'm like, come on and publish. And I think it published on Friday.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  This is brand new.

• 3:24Josh Clark?

  Here it is Tuesday.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Right out of the oven.

• 3:26Josh Clark?

  Yes. And we're talking about it just as they are completing their decline. So we are on top of this.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Well, I think that, well, we'll get into it. I think that's what makes it even more interesting is that it's still happening.

• 3:39Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  All right. Numbers, stations.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  Number stations. Yeah, like you said.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Numbers.

• 3:45Josh Clark?

  Both words are pluralized.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  It's a little clumsy.

• 3:48Josh Clark?

  And number stations are, we should just come out and say.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  They're short wave radio transmissions or transmitters making really weird, baffling is the best word for it. Transmissions.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:07Josh Clark?

  And have been doing so, apparently since at least World War I.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 4:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, supposedly the first mention of a numbers station.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:18Josh Clark?

  Uh, came from a German magazine in World War I. In World War II, they were in full swing.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  But apparently they somehow popped up first around World War I, which makes them some of the earliest shortwave transmissions in the world. Cause shortwave radio didn't come around, at least into commercial use, until about 1920. World War I was a few years before that, if you'll remember correctly.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why I didn't even, uh, think that that was possible, but

• 4:48Speaker 02

  like you said, World War II is when they were in full swing.

• 4:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  They really peaked in the Cold War.

• 4:52Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Um, and they have been dying out slowly ever since, but I think one of the neatest things is they are still, if you have a shortwave radio, you can tune into a frequency and hear beep, one, two, seven, five, eight. You know, it's, it's usually like some sort of tone.

• 5:12Josh Clark?

  We should mention to Jerry of the future.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:15Josh Clark?

  You're supposed to leave that beep in, cause it's part of the numbers station.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, we beep Jerry to signal when we want something edited. But yeah, a numbers station, it's not always a beep, it'll just have some sort of, sometimes it's a bit of a song.

• 5:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like this Swedish Rhapsody or the Lincolnshire Poacher, a British, English, UK-ish folk song.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, uh.

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  I'm so scared of them.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  I don't really say stuff like that. And the reason, um, that they, the transmission starts off with a tone or a beep or a song is so you can, uh, it, it alerts like, here comes the transmission.

• 5:47Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Tune your station, hone in, make sure you get some good reception.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Because the secret code is about to be revealed.

• 5:54Josh Clark?

  And that's exactly what everyone is pretty much in consensus on. That what comes after this and what is broadcast over these numbers stations are secret codes.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  The, again, like for the Swedish Rhapsody station, um, it is a little girl in, speaking in German, reading numbers and letters, random, seemingly random numbers and letters. And then the transmission is over. And that happens like, or it used to happen, that's a defunct number station now, but it happened on a fairly regular schedule. There's other ones, the Atencion station.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:34Josh Clark?

  Is a woman saying Atencion and then reading Spanish numbers.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:39Josh Clark?

  And then repeating them over and over again, and then going on to the next set. And everybody, no one can say for certain, but virtually everyone in the world, from Cecil Adams at Straight Dope to the head of the UK's Trade and Industry Agency, say these are secret transmissions for spies. The whole basis of them was for espionage.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the reason why everyone is speculating that that is absolutely the case, which it almost certainly is, like we said, is because no government to this day has come forward and admitted this or owned this. It is all still technically speculation because you cannot point to a factual statement. The closest we've ever come is they finally got someone from the United Kingdom, a spokesperson.

• 7:35Josh Clark?

  That was the dude from the trade agency.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 7:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  The, the, the exact quote is, "People should not be mystified by them. They're not, shall we say, for public consumption."

• 7:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  And that's the only thing on record that any government has ever spoke about what these transmissions are.

• 7:51Josh Clark?

  Right, so the, the idea that they are government transitions is the reason we have to speculate is because the government's never claimed them.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:01Josh Clark?

  On the flip side, the reason everyone thinks that they are government-backed clandestine transmissions.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  Is because these are pirate radio frequencies, pirate radio transmitters.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, my first thing was like, just find one of these and look it up and find out what the deal is.

• 8:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you would think so.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:20Josh Clark?

  They're totally unlicensed.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 8:22Josh Clark?

  Um, nobody knows exactly where they are.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  They're illegal, technically.

• 8:26Josh Clark?

  Yes, they're very illegal because they transmit over, um, air traffic control frequencies.

• 8:32Josh Clark?

  Well, that's a big one.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:34Josh Clark?

  And no one investigates them. There's no investigation into these number stations whatsoever. So the fact that the government won't say anything about them, and the fact that the government isn't investigating these very blatantly out in the open, weird baffling transmissions.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:53Josh Clark?

  Suggests that, yeah, everybody's right, that these are government-backed transmissions used to communicate anonymously and in one direction to spies embedded in foreign countries.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was about to call it a conversation, but it's really not. It's, I think on the BBC documentary I saw, they called it a monologue.

• 9:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  You're just sending a one-way message.

• 9:14Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  All right, right after this break, we're going to talk a little bit about shortwave radio technology, the secret key to sending these messages.

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• 10:46Josh Clark?

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• 12:18Josh Clark?

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• 12:52Speaker 02

  All right, the key to this whole thing is sending a short wave. Like, you might think, in this day and age, why not just send a telefax?

• 13:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  No, why not send an email, or, you know, surely there are safer ways to send espionage, this information, highly classified instructions to go kill the leader of a country, perhaps?

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  Right, like, if you want to activate Reggie Jackson to kill Queen Elizabeth.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Kill Norberg?

• 13:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:24Josh Clark?

  That's, how would you do it, in this day and age? You'd think an email would do it. No. And you want to know who proves definitively that that is not safe or secure?

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Um, who? Jimmy Fallon.

• 13:36Josh Clark?

  Edward Snowden.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:39Josh Clark?

  There are, if you use a computer, you leave a trace.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:45Josh Clark?

  It's virtually impossible to erase anything on a computer.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you think you have, then you haven't.

• 13:50Josh Clark?

  Plus, if you are, say, emailing somebody, you're transmitting what's supposed to be highly sensitive, even encrypted

• 13:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 13:59Josh Clark?

  ...information over a network. That stuff can be captured. Like, go listen to our "Is Your Employer Spying on You" episode.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:07Josh Clark?

  You can't do it. Like, you can communicate like that, but you're leaving digital traces everywhere. The beauty of the shortwave radio transmission is that, again, it's anonymous, and it's one directional, but if you get caught with a shortwave radio, at least, say, back in the 60s or the 70s or something.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:26Josh Clark?

  It wasn't weird. It didn't prove that you were a spy.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're just tuning into my stories.

• 14:31Josh Clark?

  Exactly. I'm just listening to the BBC World Service.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  Shortwave energy, radio energy, it's all determined by the power of your transmitter. So if you've got a humongous transmitter, you can send, and it didn't need to be that big, but you can send a message, one-way message, to the other side of the world.

• 14:48Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  And the reason it can travel across the planet is because it's bouncing off of It literally is bouncing off the ionosphere of the earth.

• 14:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, of the earth. Uh, fifty to three hundred and seventy-five miles up above our surface. It's in the upper atmosphere. And solar ionization creates an electrical charge and that charge reflects that signal right back down to earth. It's called a skywave or skip.

• 15:16Josh Clark?

  I like skywave.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Skywave?

• 15:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  And that's why you can, with a seemingly pretty simple piece of equipment, I can send a message to, to the South Pacific.

• 15:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  From my bedroom. Well, I don't know if I'd have one big enough for my, my bedroom's pretty big. I, I wanted to see how big these things were, actually.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  You know, like, if they say really big ones to send them further and further, like, how big do they get?

• 15:40Josh Clark?

  They get very huge. They can cover scores of acres.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 15:44Josh Clark?

  A, a big, shortwave antenna, um, which is why it can get very expensive.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  Gotcha. So that's bigger than my bedroom.

• 15:50Josh Clark?

  You can also use ones that are the size of your bedroom. It, it, it depends not only, like you said, on the size of the transmitter. It depends on the atmospheric conditions, too.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 16:02Josh Clark?

  Supposedly, shortwave transmissions are received best at sunrise and sunset, and no one's a hundred percent sure. But it has to do with the ionosphere.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:10Josh Clark?

  And because that's where, um, the northern lights are happening.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:14Josh Clark?

  That's where solar rays hit the, um, hit the earth's atmosphere. And they, the atoms lose their electrons, I believe, so they become ions.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:24Josh Clark?

  Forming the ionosphere. And because this is constantly changing, um, you can't predict exactly how a shortwave radio wave will act, but you can kind of guess, well, this time, the sun's least active or most active, whatever. It has some impact on that sky, what's it called? The sky what?

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Skywave.

• 16:47Josh Clark?

  The skywave.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:48Josh Clark?

  Effect. So you can communicate with somebody in a foreign country, right?

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:54Josh Clark?

  And not only can it not be tracked. It's very difficult to trace who sent that, where that transmission's coming from.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:02Josh Clark?

  It's impossible to trace who's receiving it.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:05Josh Clark?

  So you have no idea who in your country is getting this, which means that you're broadcasting to anybody and everybody who feels like listening to this.

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:16Josh Clark?

  A secret code, but the fact is, if you use the right kind of secret code, no one can crack it.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  All right, that brings up an important point, because you would think also, you can hack into the most secure computer system on the planet if you're good enough as a hacker.

• 17:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  So how in the world could sending a coded key like it's 1955, and you're trying to get your decoder ring, you know, from the Red, was it the Red Ryder?

• 17:46Josh Clark?

  No, no, no, that's way off.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  No, what was it?

• 17:50Josh Clark?

  It was Little Orphan Annie.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  No, no, no, I'm talking about in the Christmas story.

• 17:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was the Little Orphan Annie decoder.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  That was the show?

• 17:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  I didn't think it was.

• 17:59Josh Clark?

  He didn't, he didn't care about pirates and all that jazz, pirates and smugglers and all that jazz. He listened to Little Orphan Annie.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  All right, I'll take your word for it, I remember now.

• 18:07Josh Clark?

  Do you?

• 18:08Speaker 02

  No, but I'll take your word for it.

• 18:09Josh Clark?

  Dude, I'm telling you, it's Little Orphan Annie.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  No, I said I'm taking your word for it.

• 18:13Josh Clark?

  Eat my hat. I don't have a hat on right now, but I would eat it if I, if I were wrong.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  At any rate, you're not Little Ralphie decoding the message from Little Orphan Annie, but it is actually the most secure way that you can send a secret message, is by creating a unique code that you know and have written down on a piece of paper, and your buddy knows who has it written down on a piece of paper.

• 18:39Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  You only use it once, that's the, kind of the key here.

• 18:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  And then you destroy it afterward, that is still the most, it's unbreakable.

• 18:47Josh Clark?

  So what it's called is a one-time pad.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  The old one-timer.

• 18:51Josh Clark?

  Cause you only use it once, and it is old, it's from the 19th century.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's still uncrackable.

• 18:55Josh Clark?

  It is, and the reason why it's uncrackable is because you each have, like you said, you each have a copy of this, this code.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:02Josh Clark?

  But it's randomly generated, right? So let's say, you have the sheet of paper and the other person has a sheet of paper, and the sheet of paper says, it's just like strings of random numbers, like four or five numbers long.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:15Josh Clark?

  And it's just totally random.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:17Josh Clark?

  And it just covers, you know, several sheets of paper. Well, you guys start at the same place.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 19:23Josh Clark?

  And when the person transmitting the message.

• 19:27Josh Clark?

  Wants to encrypt it, they run their message. So say you guys have agreed like zero is A.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:35Josh Clark?

  B is one, C is two, etc.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:37Josh Clark?

  So you'd take that and you'd-

• 19:39Speaker 02

  That'd be really bad.

• 19:40Josh Clark?

  You, I, I know dude, it is mind boggling. Like this is about as simple as cryptology gets.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:46Josh Clark?

  It makes me bleed from my ears.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Well, cause all you have to do is agree on what's what.

• 19:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  You know, it could be anything.

• 19:52Josh Clark?

  Right. So you're agreeing on what's what, but you also have this randomly generated code.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 19:58Josh Clark?

  Key, right? So let's say, I want to say, what up Chuck? That's W H A T U P C H U C K. So that's 11 letters, right? So if you have your, your key and you're encoding it, you would use these first, the first 11 numbers to encode what's already encoded. So the W is say, um.

• 20:29Josh Clark?

  So it's the number 22.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 20:32Josh Clark?

  Right? And then so on. So like there's a number assigned to each letter.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:36Josh Clark?

  So you have that and then you run it through this code, this randomly generated code.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:41Josh Clark?

  So you add that and then, so you have 20, 20, what did I say? 22?

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  And then say the first letter or the first number of this code is seven. So you have 29.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:54Josh Clark?

  So that's what the little German girl reads on the air. 29.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:59Josh Clark?

  52, 37, 18.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:03Josh Clark?

  It means nothing to anyone else in the entire world, except for you and the person who has the other copy of this code. Since there's only two copies and you're only using it once.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  And you're gonna eat it afterward.

• 21:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And the key is that it's randomly generated numbers.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:23Josh Clark?

  Then it'll, it's theoretically, it will never be broken.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I mean, that's just one example. You could- You could have five pre-code rules to confuse someone trying to crack this code.

• 21:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  And they don't, it's not like, the simplest code is this letter represents this number, this number represents this letter. It gets more complex than that. You could both have agreed upon a book. You have to kill a mockingbird. I've got to kill a mockingbird.

• 21:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Four, eight, twelve, ninety, thirteen.

• 21:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Four means go to page four. Thirteen means, no, you're really going to page thirteen. Ignore the four. Then look at the 12th line, then look at the eighth word on that page.

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  Right. What a one-time pad would do is take that already agreed-upon code and encrypt it even further.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the point is it doesn't have to represent letters. It can represent full words in a text.

• 22:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  That you've agreed upon.

• 22:23Josh Clark?

  True.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  And it's basically like thumbing through this book, picking out all these various words to make a sentence.

• 22:28Josh Clark?

  Right. The problem is that's its vulnerability as well. Like, to get a copy of the randomly-generated key that's used to encrypt this message, right?

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:40Josh Clark?

  You have to have some sort of contact with somebody.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  So that's one vulnerability of it. The thing is, is like, depending on how long this is, as many numbers as there are is as long, is as many transmissions as you can transmit.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:57Josh Clark?

  Does that make any sense?

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Nah, say it clear.

• 23:00Josh Clark?

  So I said, "What up, Chuck?"

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:02Josh Clark?

  That's 11. That uses the first 11 numbers on this key.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:06Josh Clark?

  But say there's 50,000 numbers on the key.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:09Josh Clark?

  Well, we have a lot more messages I can send to you.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:12Josh Clark?

  That we're going through the pad. Eventually, though, we're going to use up this pad and we need to meet again so I can give you another randomly-generated key.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  At Kinko's.

• 23:22Josh Clark?

  That's the vulnerability of it.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Well, the other, well, not a failsafe, but the thing that makes it even safer is a lot of times they would send, and presumably are still sending, dummy messages. So you don't even know if it's real to begin with. And there are only so many person-hours you can dedicate, as a government, to code crackers. And they might be working on a code that's not even real.

• 23:46Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  So you don't even know which transmissions are legit.

• 23:49Josh Clark?

  And that is a proposal by a group called Enigma. And we'll talk about Enigma right after this message because they're pretty awesome.

• 24:10Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of VivGart, VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F-Cab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 24:47Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:03Josh Clark?

  World Mental Health Day takes place in October, and it's really meant to be more than just awareness. It's about actually taking the next step and getting support if you need it.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  But a lot of people still talk themselves out of therapy. They think it's too expensive. They're not sure if it'll actually work. They don't know how to find the right therapist, or they just get overwhelmed trying to navigate the whole system.

• 25:22Josh Clark?

  And that's exactly what Rula is built to fix. Rula makes therapy feel a lot more approachable, a lot more human. You can find a therapist who actually fits your needs, not just whoever's available. And with insurance, sessions average around $15 copay.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can sign up in just a few minutes. You can get matched with the right provider and even book something as soon as the next day.

• 25:42Josh Clark?

  And it's not just about starting. Rula helps you stay consistent and actually make progress because taking care of your mental health isn't a one-time thing. So if you've been thinking about therapy, don't talk yourself out of it. This is a really easy way to take that first step.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  So turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com, that is R-U-L-A dot com, to find a therapist the easy way.

• 26:07Speaker 04

  Do you ever feel like your computer is tracking you? Well, it's not. It's your browser following you. But not if you come back to Firefox. Firefox blocks the trackers automatically, doesn't follow you from site to site, and supports the ad blockers other browsers dropped. Plus, you can switch AI on or off when its intelligence is acting too artificial. And switching? Totally painless. Your bookmarks, passwords, and browsing history come right with you. Come back to Firefox. Visit Firefox.com.

• 26:48Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, we were talking about Enigma. I mentioned Enigma. And Enigma is this group that of basically amateur radio people. Shortwave radio enthusiasts, they really get into this. Yes. It's a thing. And they started, this was pre-pre-internet days. I think it was in the 80s, the late 80s, early 90s, that Enigma first came around and kind of coalesced. And Enigma stands for European Numbers Information Gathering and Monitoring Association. And basically, it was just a group of these people who had all- And they just happened to spell Enigma. Yeah, right. Who had all, and I think they reverse engineered that one. They always do. But they had all kind of started to talk or find each other and say, "Have you

• 27:33Josh Clark?

  heard this weird transmission?" And they're like, "Yes, I've heard that one. And you should check out this frequency on Tuesday night at 8:00 PM because it transmits this." And they suddenly realized there's this whole community of people out there. So they set up a newsletter, they started a naming convention, and they started assigning, collecting and assigning names to these different things. So like, E designated an English-speaking trans numbers station. Right. S was Slavic. V is various, which encapsulates everything from like French to Spanish. Right. And Enigma really took this thing and- Put it into understandable terms.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  And they are basically eavesdropping, or they were.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:20Josh Clark?

  Eavesdropping on the spy community.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  Are they not doing that anymore?

• 28:24Josh Clark?

  So Enigma disbanded, I think, in 2000, and then almost immediately, another group came and said, "Well, we're Enigma 2000, we're gonna carry this on." And that's pretty fortunate, because they were around to put all this on the internet.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:37Josh Clark?

  Before, it was like, you had to like, subscribe to newsletters and have a shortwave radio. Now, it's like, you can just go on the internet and listen to all sorts of archives of these defunct number stations as well.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they're creepy sounding, I don't, like, it's kinda cool.

• 28:53Josh Clark?

  I've got one for you. We've talked about it before, do you remember the Yosemite Sam transmission?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm convinced that that's just a person having fun.

• 29:02Josh Clark?

  Well, let's play it.

• 29:10Josh Clark?

  I like that one. I think it's full of info.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  It's cool, it's coming from somewhere out in Albuquerque, in the desert in New Mexico. And it's been going since, what, like, 2004?

• 29:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  And what makes this one interesting is that it's not a code, it is just Yosemite Sam saying that thing.

• 29:34Josh Clark?

  Well, then it's followed by that data burst.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:37Josh Clark?

  Which they think is some sort of compressed information.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, I don't believe it. I think this is a shortwave enthusiast having a good time.

• 29:44Josh Clark?

  Well, he's been doing it like, it's pretty sophisticated. It does it like, over and over again, I think, for 40 seconds, and switches to the next frequency, and it just goes through the band.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:53Josh Clark?

  And on a, then he's got a computer doing it for him.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 29:58Josh Clark?

  If it is just some dude, but either way, I like the use of Yosemite Sam.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  No, it's cool.

• 30:03Josh Clark?

  But it's pretty, it's exemplar of, um... Of a numbers station, of a numbers transmission. There's something that indicates that this is about to happen. And then there's the happening, the transmission of the secret code.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 30:18Josh Clark?

  Whether it's digital in nature, or whether it's spoken. And then there, it is ended by, you know, Yosemite Sam again, or something like that.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:28Josh Clark?

  It's saying, here's the beginning, here's the information, here's the end.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Now, go kill Nordberg.

• 30:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Uh, one of the other cool things about this is, and, um, you know, when we were talking about surely there's better ways, and the government could theoretically shut down the internet. They could zap satellite transmissions, they could shut everything down. This is almost unstoppable. You can't shut down shortwave radio. I mean, I guess you'd cut power, maybe.

• 30:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, no, supposedly, no, I mean, yeah. And then, I guess, if people had batteries, though, in their shortwave radio.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, good point.

• 31:04Josh Clark?

  The one way to combat it is called jamming, frequency jamming. And basically, it's just broadcasting on the same frequency that these, these other transmitters, the numbers stations are transmitting on. And so if you're broadcasting within your country, you're probably going to reach those shortwave radios better than somebody on the other side of the planet's transmission will.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:27Josh Clark?

  And so, apparently Russia spent billions, or the Soviets spent billions of dollars during the Cold War, jamming frequencies from all sorts of different transmissions. And they played things like the sound of seagulls, or random beeps, or whatever. And it was just to prevent people from transmitting into Russia.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:48Josh Clark?

  But even with all of that money and technology, mustered or marshaled against it, they still weren't entirely successful. Like, shortwave radio transmissions get through. It's just too big to fight.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can't. Can't jam the entire frequency of all short wave.

• 32:04Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Like every single frequency. If you've ever heard the, uh, the Wilco, remember Yankee Hotel Foxtrot?

• 32:13Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  That album?

• 32:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  That was the, on the album at some point, I can't remember which song, it Yankee Hotel Foxtrot in a woman's voice, and that is a famous.

• 32:23Josh Clark?

  Is it?

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Uh, code.

• 32:25Josh Clark?

  Was that from the Connet project?

• 32:27Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so, but we should talk about that for sure. That was a, a project, and it was also, I guess, in the, the, the Wild West days where you're talking about pre-internet, if people wanted to hear this stuff, some people got together and put together a, uh, a, a greatest hits sort of.

• 32:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  On CD, uh, with a lot of accompanying material about what you're listening to, and, um, none of them, obviously you can't break these codes. That's the thing I find interesting, is people sit around and listen to this stuff, but with no aim of cracking the code.

• 32:59Josh Clark?

  I think some people do attempt to crack the code.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  It's impossible.

• 33:03Josh Clark?

  Well, it's not impossible, and we should say that with the reason why it's not impossible is because if you're using a computer-generated random number, a computer's not capable of truly, of generating a truly random number, because computers run on algorithms.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:17Josh Clark?

  And the algorithms are designed to follow patterns, so they're just incapable of it. So you could, especially today, a hacker could conceivably crack one of these, especially old transmissions, but.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you still don't know what those numbers stand for, even if you find a pattern of numbers.

• 33:36Josh Clark?

  Right, there's still an agreed-upon thing that you would have to figure out, but it would, it, it makes it possible. If you could crack that one time pad key, then you have a real chance at de- deciphering the message itself.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, if you know what they stand for, but I still maintain if. Only you and I know what those numbers represent.

• 33:58Josh Clark?

  Right, to kill a mockingbird pages.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 34:03Josh Clark?

  Well, you were saying the Connet project thing.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:06Josh Clark?

  So it's a four CD compilation and apparently I read an article from the time when it came out, which is the 90s. It was like perfect timing because there was Y2K going on.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:17Josh Clark?

  There was Millennium angst, there was the X-Files, and this thing came out in 1997. And Salon wrote an article on it and this guy who wrote it was like a music concrete aficionado.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 34:30Josh Clark?

  So people appreciated it, not just for the fact that it's like recordings of real live spy transmissions.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:38Josh Clark?

  But some people like the kind of avant garde.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 34:41Josh Clark?

  Noise that it had going on too.

• 34:44Speaker 02

  I'm sure the Flaming Lips are currently planning an album composed of nothing but messages.

• 34:51Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  From number stations.

• 34:53Josh Clark?

  Number eight?

• 34:56Speaker 02

  There's a movie that exists that I had never heard of called The Number Station.

• 35:02Josh Clark?

  I hadn't heard of it either.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think it was released.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  It said it was from 2013 and like I know most movies that are released, it probably went straight to video or something. But I watched the trailer today. It's John Cusack and Melon Ackerman. And, you know, they work at a number station and he's to protect the number station, but something bad happens and they're compromised.

• 35:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  And is who he says he is and is she, who she says she is.

• 35:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  Who knows? You'll have to rent that turkey to find out.

• 35:35Josh Clark?

  Did it look bad?

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. It looked pretty bad.

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  Sorry, John Cusack.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  Sorry, John Cusack.

• 35:44Josh Clark?

  So I think one of the most interesting things about number stations is that, like you said, they peaked during the Cold War.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  Right when the Berlin Wall fell and then in the few years after that, the number of transmissions supposedly just dropped off dramatically, although I did see in at least one place that supposedly they increased, but I didn't see that supported anywhere else. But the idea that they're still around at all in 2014, that there are still number stations transmitting gibberish.

• 36:17Josh Clark?

  Uh, really says a lot. So it says a couple of things.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:20Josh Clark?

  And you've already mentioned one. It's possible they are just transmitting gibberish to throw off anybody listening.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, this one.

• 36:26Josh Clark?

  Um, to basically just kind of sap their resources.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Right, like, uh, keep them Ruski's busy listening to our gibberish.

• 36:34Josh Clark?

  Sure. Um, another one is that they're keeping them going in case they need to use them again.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  I think that's totally the reason.

• 36:42Josh Clark?

  In which case, that's pretty smart because that's just, you're not showing your hand, like where all of a sudden a, uh, an inactive radio station suddenly starts up again.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:53Josh Clark?

  Indicates activity.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Or-

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  If it's been doing the same thing-

• 36:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:56Josh Clark?

  For ten years, and, uh, on year seven, it actually transmitted a real secret message, but it seemed just like the, everything else in those ten years.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:06Josh Clark?

  You're doing some pretty good spycraft there.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, or just to keep that, um, like, you may not be actively using it, but just to keep that, um, a method relevant.

• 37:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Like, you know, if you quit doing something, it's gonna die off, and no one's gonna know how to do it anymore.

• 37:21Josh Clark?

  Sure, yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  So, they, you know, just keep those people working, and, you know, they may, may not even know if they're transmitting real messages or not.

• 37:30Josh Clark?

  I would guess if you're just saying, uh, oh, yeah, yeah, if you just hand them a sheet of paper and it's just, yeah.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  In fact, that may be a, a pretty safe way to do things.

• 37:39Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  It's like the, the person with the nuclear, uh, key.

• 37:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Is this a test?

• 37:45Josh Clark?

  Who knows?

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Is this war games?

• 37:46Josh Clark?

  We'll find out in thirty minutes.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Um, there are also other theories that they are, and I think some of this does go on, um, maybe drug runners-

• 37:55Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  Using stuff like this, because some of them are less than professional. Um, apparently the ones from Cuba, uh, or Cuba, sorry, Jerry, are a little, um, uh, comical.

• 38:07Josh Clark?

  Well, they were renowned for just having really bad slip-ups, especially during the Cold War.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Like, you'd hear people talking and laughing in the background, or- An accidental transmission of a radio station.

• 38:17Josh Clark?

  Right, of Radio Havana, right?

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, so they were kind of known for, for not being too skilled at it, but I imagine the drug runners are the same.

• 38:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's virtually the same thing, and I mean, there's absolutely no reason why drug runners couldn't have also, couldn't also use this.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:34Josh Clark?

  Alongside the, the espionage community, too.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, theirs might be, A is one, B is two.

• 38:41Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  And they get the message, says, huh, shipment of kilos coming in Miami Beach tomorrow night.

• 38:46Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Let's go get them.

• 38:47Josh Clark?

  Kill one, I'm one.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Uh, but I do think there may be a little bit of that. I think it's a mixed bag of why they're still being broadcast. I think there are enthusiasts that are probably just doing their own thing for fun.

• 39:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  That'd be fun, man. If I was in, uh, in Guam, and I could send you a private message via shortwave.

• 39:10Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought you meant people who are just doing it just to mess with like the Enigma community or something like that.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  I think that probably happens too. I bet you it's all kinds of things.

• 39:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm sure you're right.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  There's one guy out there, trust me.

• 39:21Josh Clark?

  There have been some, some actual spies who have been busted in this century, long after the Cold War, who had shortwave radios and, uh, one-time pads in their apartments or houses. Apparently, in 2011, in Germany, a couple who'd lived there since 1988 and were spying for the Russians, were caught in the act of receiving a numbers transmission

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 39:51Josh Clark?

  in their home when they were apprehended and, and busted for spying.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  I can see that scene. He's got like one headphone up and he's holding it with his hand and he's writing something down in pencil, and his wife's trying to eat it really quick.

• 40:02Josh Clark?

  Right, spit it out, spit it out.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Uh, and in 2001, Anna Montez worked for the US Civil Defense, uh, Intelligence Agency, and she was convicted of spying for Cuba, and when they searched her home, they found a shortwave radio and a code sheet. And, um, so yeah, I mean, that's, it's still going on, man. I think it's pretty neat.

• 40:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I do too.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Like, it's old school, but almost foolproof.

• 40:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the, the big vulnerability is getting the random, randomly generated key to the spy.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they also point out in the article, who wrote this one, by the way?

• 40:41Josh Clark?

  Uh, Nathan Chandler.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Um, Nathan points out that these days, you're likely, um, your one timer might be sent to you, uh, maybe digitally somehow, but it's not, it doesn't like tip anyone off necessarily.

• 40:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I'm not quite sure how.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would think if you're being watched, then an email with a lot of random numbers might tip someone off.

• 41:04Josh Clark?

  Right. Well, it used to be they, they'd print them on that, that kind of paper that like dissolved quickly or burned and left no ash or whatever.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:11Josh Clark?

  They were on such tiny piece of paper, you had to use a really good magnifying.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:15Josh Clark?

  Like lens to read it.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:18Josh Clark?

  And you could hide them in like a walnut shell or something like that.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 41:21Josh Clark?

  Who knows what they're doing now?

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:23Josh Clark?

  But they are doing something.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I'd like to, uh, I thought about getting a short, I was a little bit inspired, but then I thought, oh, man, I've got so many other things to do. I don't know if I could do, fall into that rabbit hole.

• 41:36Josh Clark?

  So that's number stations. If that, uh, piqued your interest, just type in number stations into your favorite search engine and it will lead you down the rabbit hole of shortwave radio. Did you say rabbit holes? Is that where I got that from?

• 41:49Speaker 02

  I said rabbit hole, but I didn't invent it.

• 41:52Josh Clark?

  No, I know, but it just popped up in my head.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  And it wasn't my own invention.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  And I think if you have a shortwave radio, you probably tune into these anyway, cause you're just into that lifestyle. But I think there's a website called Spy Numbers.

• 42:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Where you can actually find the frequencies and just go right there and you don't have to search for them.

• 42:07Josh Clark?

  Right. And if you want to read this article, you can type the words numbers stations in the search bar at howstuffworks.com. And since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  I'm gonna call this a bit on sushi. From someone in Japan. Uh, hey guys and Jerry. He spelled Jerry right as well.

• 42:28Josh Clark?

  Man, it's Jerry's day.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Uh, I enjoyed the sushi episode quite a bit and have something to add. Uh, as a result of modern food production following World War II in Japan, and of course, the US and elsewhere, the quality and traditional methods of making shoyu, miso, and other Japanese food items sadly plummeted. Uh, for example, miso can be fermented and aged a matter of weeks with the use of temperature-controlled tanks where traditional dark miso would age up to two years. Uh, same goes with other fermented products like shoyu. Uh, mirin, no longer a sweet rice cooking wine, is practically sugar water. Speaking of sugar, modern Japanese food wouldn't exist without it. Uh, umiboshi, uh, the sour salty pickled plum.

• 43:08Josh Clark?

  Does it good.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Is lousy with artificial color, sugar, and refined salt.

• 43:12Josh Clark?

  They're still good.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  As much as I loved, uh, loved Japanese food and culture, it's quite heartbreaking to see these centuries of traditional food processing supplanted by the Japanese version of a Twinkie, chemically made in process. As an alternative, there are good quality Japanese products to be had, particularly those imported from, uh, Eden Foods, which is high-quality, organic, and widely distributed.

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  Is this the president of Eden Foods?

• 43:35Speaker 02

  I don't know. Are they based in Alameda, California?

• 43:38Josh Clark?

  Sounds like it.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Uh, that is from Lear in Alameda, California. Um, I meant to mention to you, I had the worst sushi I've had in my life the other day.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  Oh, no, where?

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm not gonna say it, but I'm not going back. I'll tell you off air.

• 43:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, please do.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  I don't think you wouldn't go there anyway, but, um, it was, the rice was gummy.

• 43:58Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  And really gummy. To the point where I ate it, just because I was starving, and I ate it really fast. And I was like, oh, this is kinda gummy. And then afterward, I was like, man, that was terrible.

• 44:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah? Did you say that to yourself and like you smiled and your whole mouth was coated in rice?

• 44:17Speaker 02

  It was gross, man. I was, I was ticked off afterward, after I paid the bill, uh, and complained the whole way home to Emily. I was like, gosh, I really should've said something, cause that was...

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Like, they should have known they shouldn't have served that rice.

• 44:28Josh Clark?

  Well, why didn't you say something?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Because, like I said, I just shoved it in my face hole and left and complained afterward, which is, that's how I do things usually. I don't like to make a scene. I just like to play the martyr afterward. I've talked about that gummy sushi for two days.

• 44:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Oh, it was that bad, huh?

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, the fish and stuff was good, but that rice was just very subpar. They should have known better.

• 44:52Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, tell me where it is afterward.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  I will.

• 44:55Josh Clark?

  Okay. If you want to, I guess inadvertently or quietly clandestinely promote your business, like Lear did with his Eden Foods.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Subversively?

• 45:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah. You can send us an email to [email protected].

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 45:32Josh Clark?

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• 46:14Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. Wherever you get your podcasts.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Empower is all about helping you invest well so you can go out and live a little. And their free Empower Personal Dashboard shows you your full financial life in one place. You'll be able to see your net worth, monitor budgets, analyze your portfolio, set retirement goals and more. Whether you're saving for something big, want to treat yourself, friends or family, or meet long-term goals, Empower helps you see where you stand. You've worked hard for your money and Empower can help you make the most of it. Download the Empower Personal Dashboard or visit empower.com. Not an Empower client. Paid or sponsored.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.