Pod Insights Stuff You Should Know How the Kowloon Walled City Worked About this episode From the 1970s to the early 1990s a patch of land in Hong Kong the size of just a few football fields was the most densely-populated area in the world – and by a longshot. Even more remarkable, it was an outlaw land that somehow formed a tight community.
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1:38 Speaker 00 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
1:47 Josh Clark? Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here as well, and this is Stuff You Should Know. So let's get started talking about some stuff that you should know. And I guess we should do our semi annual explanation, Chuck, that our, the title of our podcast is never intended to make you feel bad because you don't know something. It's not that we think you should know this already. We're saying, we find this really interesting and we want to share it with you. Hence, we want you to know about it. You should know about this because it's interesting and we want to tell you about it. Not that you should already know about it.
2:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's the second one. We just did that listener mail like two weeks ago.
2:24 Josh Clark? I think we should do it every week. I'm going to start every podcast with that from now on, okay?
2:29 Speaker 02 That's a great way to retain listeners, I think.
2:31 Josh Clark? For sure. Man, you should see the matcha I'm drinking right now. It's like mash, mashed brown green.
2:39 Speaker 02 Ooh.
2:39 Josh Clark? It's disgusting. I don't know what's wrong with it, but I gotta drink it anyway.
2:43 Speaker 02 Oh, does it not taste good either?
2:46 Josh Clark? Not really. It's pretty bitter.
2:49 Speaker 02 Maybe that matcha's turned, bro.
2:50 Josh Clark? But does it? It was powder. Does matcha turn? Because if so, I'm drinking turned matcha for sure.
2:55 Speaker 02 All right, well, we'll do a short stuff. Can a powder turn?
2:59 Josh Clark? As the powder turn.
3:02 Speaker 02 But no, we're not going to do that today because we're talking about the Kowloon walled city in Hong Kong, uh, which is the most, well, at one time was the most densely populated place on planet Earth. And just to give you, if you've ever been to New York City, if you've ever traveled to the East Village.
3:19 Josh Clark? Yeah.
3:19 Speaker 02 One of my favorite villages.
3:21 Josh Clark? That's where I got engaged.
3:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, right there at the museum. Which one?
3:25 Josh Clark? New Museum.
3:26 Speaker 02 Not the Whitney.
3:27 Josh Clark? No.
3:29 Speaker 02 That is the most, uh, and it doesn't feel like it when you're there, but the East Village is the most densely, um, neighborhood in New York City. And they have about 43,000 people living in the East Village.
3:42 Speaker 02 The Kowloon walled city is about the size of the East Village geographically, but there are one point. Yeah, that's why they use the East Village in all the comps. Uh, 1.25 million people living there as opposed to 43,000.
3:58 Josh Clark? Okay, yes, exactly. But there were really only 33,000 people, but if you spread it all out over a square kilometer, you would have that many people to equal that density, right?
4:09 Speaker 02 That's right.
4:10 Josh Clark? So that's, um, I wanted to make sure to take that and just screw it up. The reason I did that is because it's not the same size. Kowloon walled city is like a fraction of the size of the, the square kilometer.
4:22 Speaker 02 Uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I think like a little over three football fields.
4:27 Josh Clark? I saw that. Um, I also saw four. I also saw four rugby fields or large soccer pitches. So all those put together, imagine 33,000 people standing on there. Like they literally have to be standing on one another's shoulders. Who knows how many people deep it would be. And so this incredibly compact area of a few football fields or rugby or soccer pitches, um, held buildings right up against each other that went all the way up to 14 stories tall. And if you went into this place, you would be like, I, I, this is like nowhere I've ever been in the world. And you would be right because there was nowhere
5:08 Josh Clark? in the world like the Kowloon walled city from about 1970 to 1990 ish.
5:13 Speaker 02 Yeah. Like if you have a, if you have a fairly smallish, um, lot that your house is on, let's say you have a single family house and it's on like maybe a half an acre. If you're lucky, like you're doing pretty great. That's a great life.
5:28 Josh Clark? Yeah.
5:28 Speaker 02 This is a little more than six and a half acres and there were 500 buildings packed in there.
5:34 Josh Clark? That nuts. Like even with those mind blowing stats, it's like, go and look, there's a very famous photograph from I think a 1989 or 1990 National Geographic overhead that just gets, it gets it all across perfectly. Um, it, you just look at it and you're like that, that doesn't even look like a, a village or a city. It looks like a single thing. And a lot of people have made that point that these buildings were so close together. They were so interconnected. People just built haphazard bridges between one building and another. So they didn't have to go down 14 stories and then back up. Um, that it essentially created one single organism that that's kind of how Kowloon Wild City came
6:19 Josh Clark? to be seen when it, when it reached its fully developed peak.
6:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, it had to be the inspiration behind the Living Quarters and Ready Player One. If you've ever seen that movie or read the book. When I saw pictures of Calhoun Walt City for the first time, I was like, oh, it looks like Ready Player One.
6:39 Josh Clark? Oh, really?
6:40 Speaker 02 Except it was real. This was an actual real place. So we encourage you at some point when it's safe to do so to look it up because the picture is worth a thousand words. And we spent probably a couple of thousand trying to describe it.
6:51 Josh Clark? The thing that really rings home, I guess, to me.
6:56 Speaker 02 Okay.
6:58 Josh Clark? Comparing it to Blade Runner, like especially in Blade Runner when Harrison Ford is eating noodles and Edward James almost comes up to take him away.
7:08 Josh Clark? Like just that kind of look, like the fluorescent light, everything's packed together, there's people everywhere. Like, that's what it looked like. Like, there's no way that the designers of Blade Runner did not.
7:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:20 Josh Clark? Were not inspired by Calhoun Walt City. I refuse to believe it.
7:23 Speaker 02 Well, and as we'll see, or I guess I could say it now, there've been lots of video games and movies that were based either on or very much patterned after this look. One of the Black Ops games, this movie about a stray cat. Or, I'm sorry, a video game about a stray cat that may be a movie at some point, but.
7:41 Josh Clark? Yeah, I think it was.
7:43 Speaker 02 This is all to say it was densely packed. Have we gotten that across?
7:48 Josh Clark? What was that movie that I told you to watch about the cat, the animated movie about the cat? And then you, you said, oh, I already saw it in theaters. Was it called Flow?
7:58 Speaker 02 I think that was Flow. That was so, so great.
8:01 Josh Clark? That was such a good movie. I encourage everybody to go watch it. It's like almost 16 or 8-bit graphic looking. It's very bit-mapped on purpose and it really does a great job of making it otherworldly.
8:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, it won the Oscar and it looks that way because a dude made it in his apartment.
8:16 Josh Clark? Oh, man, that makes it even better. That is such an amazing movie.
8:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's really great.
8:20 Josh Clark? The other movie that sticks out for me when I think of Calhoun Walt City is the Merchant Ivory movie, Howard's End.
8:27 Speaker 02 Or Far and Away with Nicole Kidman.
8:30 Josh Clark? Right.
8:31 Speaker 02 Tom Cruise, that one.
8:32 Josh Clark? I saw that in the theater for some reason.
8:34 Speaker 02 Did you really? That's weird.
8:35 Josh Clark? I also saw Eyes Wide Shut in the theater and I knew all about it going into it. And so it was my birthday, so I made my whole family go watch it.
8:43 Speaker 02 Oh, that's the very fun end of that story.
8:46 Josh Clark? Yeah.
8:47 Speaker 02 All right. So we need to go back in history, though, if we want to talk about how this city came to be. And in order to do that, we need to go back to the first Opium War, which was a few years between 1839 and 42, where there was a trade dispute between Imperial China and Britain, wherein Britain was like, hey, we love shipping in this opium from India to your addicted citizens.
9:10 Josh Clark? Right.
9:11 Speaker 02 And China was like, no, we like selling them opium ourselves. And so let's go to war over that.
9:17 Josh Clark? I think actually China was was executing addicts in the street. They were on a huge campaign to eradicate opium addiction from their population. And Britain was like, uh-uh, we're going to keep them addicted because we're making tons of cash off of that.
9:30 Speaker 02 Oh, for sure. And this is after China had made a ton of money shipping tea.
9:34 Josh Clark? Yes.
9:35 Speaker 02 There were trade relations already, you know, sort of ensconced.
9:39 Josh Clark? Yeah. And Britain couldn't get enough of China's tea, but China was like, we don't really want too much of your stuff, except our population wants the opium you're smuggling in. So imagine if like the war as cartel, like Mexico was like, nope, we don't want you supplying our population with drugs. And the war as cartel is like, oh yeah, we're going to war with you and we're going to win. And now we have a treaty saying that we can sell your population drugs and you can't do anything about it. That was essentially the first Opium War.
10:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
10:08 Josh Clark? And there was even a second Opium War, the sequel.
10:11 Speaker 02 That's right. But another important thing came out of the first Opium War, which was China was forced to cede some land on Hong Kong, which, you know, wasn't a big bustling place at that point, not much of anything at that point. And in order to sort of, you know, be close to them and sort of keep an eye on what's going over there. The Qing Dynasty said, all right, we have a military installation on just across the water from Hong Kong on the Kowloon Peninsula and over the Kowloon Bay.
10:43 Josh Clark? Yeah.
10:43 Speaker 02 And let's build a big wall there and just like fortify this little military installation. So they built a wall 15 feet thick, 13 feet high. It housed about 150 soldiers. And that's where the name Kowloon Walled City came from, from that wall.
11:01 Josh Clark? Yeah, and today's modern Hong Kong is populated mostly on the Kowloon Peninsula. But at the time, it was the opposite. Hong Kong Island was the population and this Kowloon place was just a little Nowheresville essentially. And so China was like, yeah, we're going to keep this. We're going to keep it an eye on the Brits like this. And after, um, I guess the, the second Opium War led to the Second Convention of Peking, where both the first Opium War and the second one found China just giving into tons of demands from the Brits, from the Americans, from I think the French, who were all like, you have to open your markets to us because we want money from you guys. And one of the things that came out of it was the very famous 99 year lease
11:46 Josh Clark? that the Brits had on Hong Kong from China, which is why the, the, the UK administered Hong Kong for almost 100 years, essentially throughout the 20th century.
11:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, so, uh, the other thing land wise that came out of that second Opium War was they ceded all of Hong Kong Island, the entire Kowloon Peninsula to the Brits. But keep in mind, they still have this walled city, um, kind of right there, you know, nearest to the coast within that territory. And so there was a little, uh, I guess a little loophole that they, I don't know if they snuck it in there, but it was, it was in, you know, clearly written.
12:25 Josh Clark? Yeah.
12:25 Speaker 02 But there was a clause in there basically that said, uh, it's so confusing. I'm not even going to read it. But the result was this weird, small walled city.
12:36 Speaker 02 Within this territory that Britain now controls was to to stay there and to stay that way.
12:41 Josh Clark? And to stay Chinese territory. So this little tiny six acre, three rugby pitch. Patch of land would be Chinese sovereign land in this British territory. Essentially is what just got set up from the 1898 treaty.
13:00 Speaker 02 All right. So it's a weird situation. Uh, but that's what they're left with. Right after the British takeover there. Some Christian missionaries went in. It started to get populated. The walled city did. They built a church.
13:13 Josh Clark? Yeah.
13:14 Speaker 02 Some pig farmers came in. They started squatting. People started squatting because, you know, it was protected by this great, you know, not, I'm sorry, not the Great Wall, a Great Wall. That was when we were in Belize on vacation. We went up a Rio Grande. Emily kept saying, you go up the Rio Grande to get to the ocean. And I was like, I don't think it's the Rio Grande. And it was, it was Rio Grande. But, uh, so the joke for the rest of the trip was we're going up a Rio Grande.
13:39 Josh Clark? Very cute.
13:40 Speaker 02 So there was a Great Wall. So that attracted squatters.
13:44 Josh Clark? It did. Um, and one of the reasons why is because there was this idea that, okay, this is Chinese territory. So that was already kind of a, a thought in people's head. That there weren't enough people there in this Christian missionary church kind of were almost keeping an eye on things as far as the Brits administering Hong Kong were concerned. So they weren't paying much attention to it. And then World War Two came along and Japan occupied big swaths of China, as we talked about in our unit 731 episode. Um, and one of those swaths was the, the peninsula, the Kowloon Peninsula. And they tore down those thick, thick granite walls and they used it to build out a Kai Tak Airport.
14:26 Josh Clark? And, um, I think it was already there. It was kind of like an airfield or landing strip. And they turned it into like an actual airport. And for many, many years, for decades, Kai Tak Airport was the airport that you flew into when you flew to Hong Kong.
14:39 Speaker 02 Yeah. And it's, uh, you know, they needed building materials. I love repurposing building materials.
14:44 Josh Clark? Sure.
14:45 Speaker 02 So when I heard that part, I was like, that's great. Uh, they don't need that wall there anyway, because it looks like it had a wall built around it when you looked at it.
14:52 Josh Clark? Right.
14:53 Speaker 02 You know, that was kind of the funny thing.
14:54 Josh Clark? Yeah.
14:56 Speaker 02 Which is ironic because it looks like they populated that city with a wall and then took the wall down.
15:01 Josh Clark? Yeah.
15:01 Speaker 02 But it was just so. I mean, everyone knew how far out you could build, so it just kind of ended up looking that way.
15:08 Josh Clark? Right, it was, it was, and it was very densely populated.
15:12 Speaker 02 That's what I've heard.
15:14 Josh Clark? So after World War II, a couple of things happened geopolitically that kind of gave rise to the Kowloon Walled City. The name stuck even though it didn't have the walls.
15:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:28 Josh Clark? But a lot of the, the people who were refugees during the war made their way down to the Kowloon Peninsula, and they were like, we're not Brits, we're Chinese, so we're going to start squatting here. And the Brits were like, no, you know, you're not squatting here. This is not Chinese, it's ours, it's part of Hong Kong, we basically own Hong Kong right now, so get out. And they evicted all the squatters in 1948. By this time, it had been, there were like thousands of them, so it was a really big deal. And then the squatters just came back next week.
16:00 Speaker 02 That's right, they came back the next week, they tried to kick them out again, and there was a riot this time. And I feel like that's a pretty good time for our first break.
16:10 Josh Clark? Okay, sure.
16:11 Speaker 02 All right, we'll be right back.
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16:50 Josh Clark? Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.
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18:55 Speaker 02 All right, so we're back. Kowloon walled city without the wall.
18:59 Josh Clark? Yeah.
18:59 Speaker 02 Is being populated, they're getting kicked out, they keep coming back. There was a Chinese civil war following the World War II. So that was one reason that people, you know, between the Communist and the Nationalist Party, and that was one reason people were starting, you know, to get the heck out of, you know, in there, I guess.
19:17 Josh Clark? Yeah.
19:17 Speaker 02 And in 1949, you know, the Communists won, they declared the People's Republic of China. And so that's when in the 1950s, things really kicked off with refugees trying to get in there and build up, up, up.
19:30 Josh Clark? Yeah, and if you were a refugee from China, that meant you were probably a nationalist or at the very least weren't a communist and you just needed to get out of there. But you were, as far as you were concerned, better off living on this tiny patch of Chinese land because you still consider yourself a Chinese national than you were trying to assimilate into this British administered colony that was really Chinese, but the Brits didn't treat it like that, right? And so these people, these refugees became like this, they're almost like freedom fighters. And even the CCP, the Chinese Communist Government, they would, they were, they were promoting them, they would give them supplies sometimes, they would give them food, sometimes they
20:14 Josh Clark? would send emissaries down that would talk them up and be like, keep fighting the good fight, you know, we've got your back. And essentially, anytime the Brits tried to make a move on the, these residents of Kowloon walled city, China would step in and be like, ah, that is Chinese territory. So no matter what these people did, the Brits' hands were tied. And the whole reason why was not that China cared about them, but it was a thorn in Great Britain's side. There was this crazy weird area that they did not have control over in the middle of this colony that they had taken from China. And China took every opportunity to basically twist that thorn in their side. And they used every, every time that the people of Kowloon were put upon as a chance
20:59 Josh Clark? to step in and flex their, whatever authority they did have in the area still.
21:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, so as a result of all this, the Brits were like, I don't even. Care anymore. Like, this is such a pain. In the 50s and 60s, they took a real hands-off approach and just kind of let what happened there, happened there. And that led to a real influx of people. And then that housing boom, they, they didn't have, it looks like the only building code they have was, you can't build anything over 14 stories tall because it's right there next to the airport. And you don't want to get a wing through your living room one day. So that was the only building code around, certainly the only one honored. Because it was kind of, anything goes inside there. And what we ended up with, you know, you mentioned
21:49 Speaker 02 an organic structure, it was ended up called by architects, an organic megastructure.
21:53 Josh Clark? Sure.
21:54 Speaker 02 Because these buildings would sink down into their foundation and start to tip. But they would tip over into the next one, and that one was tipping toward it. So they ended up calling like lovers buildings, because at the top, they were all kind of angled in and touching one another. And it's sort of sweet, if you think about it.
22:13 Josh Clark? It is, it is kind of sweet. It was also, at the same time, weirdly, architects in like the 50s and 60s, there was kind of like a avant-garde school of thought about just incredibly dense, like, community building. And this is essentially a natural experiment. And it kind of showed that a lot of those theories held up, kind of like the buildings held one another up, that people could just build out what they needed in ways that they needed in that spaces that were livable without having to be, you know, spread out, without having to have government oversight and all that kind of stuff, too. Those buildings, especially when they were lovers buildings, pressed up against one another, they became
22:55 Josh Clark? so dense, that sunlight would not penetrate the street level, in a lot of cases, in most cases, actually. Like, one of the premiums for a flat in the Kowloon Walled City was one that was outward facing, or faced on the internal courtyard, because they had sun exposure. Most of the apartments, businesses, dwellings, streets, alleys in Kowloon Walled City, were not exposed to sunlight at any point in the day.
23:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, and that, you said this pretty good little YouTube, it was like 15, 20 minutes long about this walled city that breaks it down. And at one point, I paused it because they had, I was wondering what these things cost. And I don't know what year this was that they gave us these numbers from, but a 280 square foot flat costs 28,000 American dollars. And if you're thinking, all right, that 280, 28,000, that kind of makes sense. But that was without sunlight. I think the exterior facing 450 square foot flat was $60,000.
23:58 Josh Clark? Yeah, and I think that was in the 60s or 70s from a paper I saw.
24:02 Speaker 02 Okay.
24:03 Josh Clark? But still, one of the things I saw is that a reason that this was attractive to a lot of people, because over time, the place didn't just attract Chinese nationalists and refugees from China. It attracted people who were like, oh, there's this really cheap living in here. You could get a flat that was about double the square footage of a, like a government flat, like a council flat, public housing essentially you'd call it. And it had a kitchen and a bathroom, and those were not guaranteed in the public housing flats that you would maybe even pay the same or more for. So there was like real incentive to move into this place if you didn't care
24:44 Josh Clark? about living cheek to jowl with your neighbors amid trash and abandoned appliances and all sorts of other crazy stuff.
24:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, there were some benefits, though. If you lived in the Kowloon walled city, you didn't pay an electric bill, almost certainly, because you probably just like literally ran the electric yourself from the public utilities. There was all manner of plumbing and wiring routed from the outside coming in into the walled city. So these buildings were wrapped in water pipes and sewage lines and conduit running electricity. If you were a business, you weren't paying any kind of business taxes.
25:24 Josh Clark? Right.
25:25 Speaker 02 So that was a big plus. But you didn't have stuff like trash pickup. And you had to deal with things like heroin dealers and brothels and the Triad gang kind of running the show, which, you know, it was mostly bad, but they also did some, some things to keep the place up.
25:42 Josh Clark? Yeah, a good example that I saw of what life was like in this that made it like, people just got used to this stuff and it was every day was that you would, when you're walking on street level, you would carry an umbrella. Because of those exposed pipes.
25:55 Speaker 02 Right.
25:55 Josh Clark? It would be leaking on you, but some of those pipes were also sewage pipes. So those would be dripping and leaking too, because there was no code that was being followed. It was like, I need a sewage outlet coming out of my house here. So I'm just going to run this pipe right here and that's that. So people just walked around with umbrellas on street level. Another one that I saw that people just got used to is that a lot of the street level areas were tunnels. And the reason that they were tunnels is because overhead, there was a mesh net that had been laid between buildings to catch the trash that people just threw out of their windows. And the reason that they put the mesh netting was because if they didn't, then you wouldn't be able to get into the ground floor of any of the buildings because it would, they would be so covered up with trash.
26:40 Josh Clark? And so these impromptu alleys developed as trash built overhead and the, the, the walls of the first floor of these buildings were exposed on either side. People just got used to this, like this was just what life was like in Kowloon. And in some ways, it wasn't that much worse, if, if at all, than some of the other poverty stricken areas of, of Hong Kong at the time.
27:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, like if you're wondering like, why did people even live there or stay there? It's for exactly that reason. You know, it, it wasn't so different from other poor places that it would have been a big like, uh, life improvement to move. And this was their home. It may look kind of, kind of crazy from the outside, but people really made a life there. There were hundreds of legit businesses that operated there. There was, there were machine shops, there were a lot of machine shops as far as industry goes and metal fabrication. Uh, and then food was a big one. There were lots of food factories and, uh, in that documentary, they said, you know, there was always a feeling that like some of the food that was made there was in, on
27:48 Speaker 02 the plates and in the bowls of some really high-class restaurants, uh, surrounding them.
27:53 Josh Clark? Yep, the fish balls. So they were unregulated fish balls made in highly unsanitary conditions that just made it out of the. Kowloon Walled City, because that's another thing too. A lot of people look at this from the outside and think like, this is completely isolated from the rest of Hong Kong. Absolutely untrue. Those businesses were exporting out of the city into the rest of Hong Kong. People were coming from outside of the city into the city for things like dentists and doctors, who are all unlicensed, unregulated, which at first blush, you're just like, oh my God, why would you go to an unlicensed dentist? Well, they were already trained and licensed in China. But when they went to Hong Kong, those credentials didn't transfer over.
28:37 Josh Clark? And so rather than pay and become a licensed dentist in Hong Kong under British rule, they just set up in Kowloon Walled City and set up practice without needing a license.
28:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it was cheaper.
28:50 Josh Clark? Way cheaper.
28:52 Speaker 02 Uh, there were schools, if you're like, you know, did they even function as like a regular society? They actually for sure did. There were kindergartens, there were schools. A lot of times it was like the Salvation Army or somebody kind of running these things. If you were like, what about a playground or something like that? Some of these rooftops had, you know, playground equipment where kids could go. Pigeon racing was a big thing. So there were gardens on the roofs, the ones that didn't have trash on them. Uh, and they were also keeping these racing pigeons up there. Uh, and you know, there was actually some order. It wasn't just like, and you might picture like constant chaos or something like that. It was more like something you see out of Blade Runner, just a really densely populated city, like actually functioning. They had volunteer fire brigades.
29:37 Speaker 02 They did, you know, they didn't have municipal trash collection. Uh, and there was trash all over the place, but they tried, you know, they had volunteer trash collection teams. They had night watch teams. There was a single mail delivery person delivering to the entire city. So they were functioning.
29:53 Josh Clark? Yeah, there was the officially the Neighborhood Welfare Association. If you bought or sold a flat, the Neighborhood Welfare Association would witness it. So it was very much legal. And then the Triads you mentioned, they were running and they were manufacturing and selling heroin out of the city. They were running protection rackets and brothels and child prostitutes and all sorts of terrible stuff. And then simultaneously, they were also providing the law and order that did exist. Like, it was not just chaotic anarchy. It was anarchic in the in the sense of like government regulation and oversight, like, you know, building codes and stuff. But it's not like you just walked over your neighbor's house and killed them and took their stuff
30:37 Josh Clark? and that was that. Like, there was law and order and it was the the rule of the Triads who essentially kept people from, I guess, descending into chaos if that was even a possibility.
30:51 Speaker 02 Well, they didn't want, it's kind of the the rule of the street. They didn't want the real authorities coming in there. And if it got so bad, that would eventually happen. It was, I mean, I remember when my friend bought his first house in Atlanta in the mid 90s in a pretty rough neighborhood. Like, he got his house broken into and got some stuff stolen. And the guy that was the big, like, drug dealer dude in the neighborhood brought his stuff back and like knocked on the door and said, here's your guitar, here's your amp, here's your stuff. And he was like, you know, I think the unspoken thing was like, he doesn't want the cops in there. So he's trying to keep his guys from doing dumb stuff like that to attract attention.
31:32 Josh Clark? Okay, so yeah, perfect analogy. That's exactly what the Triads were doing in there. And so, yeah, if you if you just, you know, if you wanted to do heroin or something, I think it was largely smoked, you would come from outside Calhoun Wald City. Maybe if you liked heroin so much, you'd stick around and move there. But at the same time, if you were just some elderly person looking for a cheap place to stay that was willing to to live in an incredibly dense place, like, there was. There was room for you there, too. So it was a really, I saw that it was vilified and romanticized and it really shouldn't be either. Neither of those should be done
32:14 Josh Clark? to it. It was, just like every other place, multiple shades of gray. It was just the
32:20 Speaker 02 Literally.
32:21 Josh Clark? The, sure. It's just that the extremes on either side are so fascinating, especially when they, the, the whole spectrum is viewed that, that, that's what made Kowloon City so remarkable.
32:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great time for a second break. And we're going to talk about what happened in Kowloon City, right after this.
32:42 Speaker 03 In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military.
33:07 Josh Clark? Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of VivGart, VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgartigimod Alpha F-Cab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.
33:31 Speaker 02 Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.
33:44 Josh Clark? These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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34:49 Josh Clark? Chuck, we're back. And I just want to say, before I forget again, 99% Invisible, of course, did an amazing episode-
34:55 Speaker 02 Oh, of course they did.
34:56 Josh Clark? -on this back in 2012, so-
34:58 Speaker 02 The great Roman Mars.
35:00 Josh Clark? Yeah. And you could be like, "Oh, that's not what Josh and Chuck said. They said something different." Just go with Roman Mars' interpretation.
35:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, I just weirdly texted Roman the other day, or yesterday, for the first time in a long, long time.
35:12 Josh Clark? Like weirdly? You said something weird?
35:15 Speaker 02 No, just weird that you brought him up. That's like twice that he's been mentioned in my life. Twice in a couple of days, and it had been a while. And he didn't text me back yet. Come on, Roman.
35:24 Josh Clark? Seriously, Roman, get your act together. So, yeah, so Calhoun Wild City, it's going along. Most of the stuff we've just talked about, the 14-story buildings, lovers' buildings pressed up against one another, the trash tunnels, all that stuff is really taking place from about 1970 to, say, 1990, 92. Okay? That's like the peak of the notoriety and infamy and the, just the way that people think of Calhoun Wild City. It was basically between those decades, right? And even before then, even before there were 14-story buildings astonishingly going up in this, in the city, the Brits were like, we really hate that Kowloon walled city is
36:08 Josh Clark? sitting there. It's just like a thumb in our eye that the Chinese just keep, keep rubbing over and over again. We really want to get rid of it, but their, their hands were tied, essentially. Despite that, they, they tried a bunch of different ideas to try to get people out of Kowloon walled city so they could tear it down.
36:27 Speaker 02 It was a toe in their tea.
36:29 Josh Clark? Perfect. Man, you are on fire today.
36:32 Speaker 02 I mean, can you imagine anything worse?
36:35 Josh Clark? A foot in your Brunswick stew.
36:37 Speaker 02 Right. Oh, wow. Okay.
36:42 Josh Clark? With a shoe on and everything? Good.
36:44 Speaker 02 Nice callback. All right. So if you don't know what that is, everybody, you're, that's gonna be a little Easter egg for you one day. Deep in the stuff you should know archives.
36:51 Josh Clark? Thank you.
36:52 Speaker 02 Deep in a pot of Brunswick stew. All right. In 1962, the Brits started, or I'm sorry, they completed construction on a high-rise public housing complex called the Tung Tau Estate.
37:03 Josh Clark? Sure.
37:04 Speaker 02 And they're like, all right, everybody, look what we built for you. Residents of Kowloon walled city, get out of there. Come on over here. We want to resettle you. This is much nicer. Authorities showed up. They had notices that they posted and handed people. And they were met with the Kowloon walled city anti-demolition and anti-removal committee, who said, no, thanks. We want to stay here.
37:28 Josh Clark? Yeah. And so they said, you know what? We're going to tell China on you, essentially. And China stepped in and was like, no, guys, you're not going to do that. These people have a right to live here. This is, quote, a gross violation of China's sovereignty, and everybody should, should protest and strike. And they did. And the cops came in and there were clashes. And it became essentially an international scandal that the Brits were picking on these poor people who were squatting in this poor area in a colony the Brits were administering. It was not a very good look. So the Brits backed off. And it was another chance for China to be like, ha, ha, we, we are really using Kowloon walled city to the,
38:13 Josh Clark? to the maximum effect. So the Brits who still wanted to tear this down, they went back to the drawing board.
38:20 Speaker 02 That's right. But what they knew they had was this nine- Ninety nine year lease.
38:23 Josh Clark? Yeah.
38:24 Speaker 02 Signed in eighteen ninety eight, so you do the math. Uh, nineteen ninety seven was that year on the horizon, just sort of sitting out there.
38:31 Josh Clark? I would have said ninety eight.
38:33 Speaker 02 And then the Brits, they knew the state was coming, uh, China knew the state was coming. And they were like, all right, uh, do China was like, we've been making hemming and hawing about this thing being sovereign. Like, do we really want this back in nineteen ninety seven? Do we want to inherit this thing? And on the Brit side, they were like, aha, like, we know what they're thinking over there. They don't want to really inherit this thing either.
38:58 Josh Clark? Yeah.
38:59 Speaker 02 So they started some sort of more legitimate, um, like agreeing, uh, with one another. Uh, as far as talks go, as early as like nineteen eighty six, when China was like, uh, maybe we should actually talk this over now.
39:12 Josh Clark? Yeah, and these were secret talks, right? So, um, for China, this, this city had outlived its political usefulness. And I guess just as a, I mean, they wanted to tear it down so badly that the Brits were willing to do this for China. Shortly before the handover in nineteen ninety seven. And so what they came up with is that residents would be offered financial compensation, pretty good compensation too. I think about three hundred thousand dollars for a flat that again, they'd spent maybe thirty thousand dollars on twenty years before. They would be moved into a high-rise public housing unit. They're basically all going to be resettled into a nicer life. Gratis with a little spending money.
39:54 Speaker 02 That's right. Uh, so finally, on January fourteenth nineteen eighty seven, they got three hundred and sixty staff members from the, uh, clearance and squatter control from Hong Kong. And they, they came down to Kowloon City and, uh, they were like, hey, we need to get a, we need to know how many people are here. We need to know how many people are resettling, so we need an actual census.
40:16 Josh Clark? Right.
40:17 Speaker 02 Like, no one has a clue. We've been guessing how many people live here, uh, based on ordinary numbers, and this isn't an ordinary place. So they cordoned off all eighty-three entrances and exits. It's to the city, went door to door and did a census and counted people up and said, hey, this is the plan moving forward. You're going to be resettled. And there wasn't a riot this time. They were still thinking like, oh yeah, we're going to tell China on you because they didn't know their secret talks had been going on.
40:42 Josh Clark? Right.
40:43 Speaker 02 This time it was different and the Chinese Foreign Ministry finally stepped up and in a formal statement said, in so many words, yeah, the time has come and we're giving this over to the British. They're gonna, they're gonna rid this place of its residences and it was nice while it lasted.
41:03 Josh Clark? Yeah. So that was 1987, you said? It wasn't until 94 that Kowloon Wild City was finally fully demolished. And it wasn't until two years before that, that the last resident was finally evicted. There was a few, there were a few holdouts. A lot of people were like, okay, I'll take 300 grand and a new place to live. There were some holdouts because I don't, probably people have guessed this, but we didn't say it overtly. There, there was a tremendous amount of pride among people living in Kowloon Wild City.
41:37 Speaker 02 It was their home.
41:37 Josh Clark? Yes. And it was a very special and unique home and they were not going to find that anywhere else on earth and they knew it. And so a lot of them were holdouts for a very long time and did not want to go.
41:48 Speaker 02 Yeah. And I imagine it attracted, just like the initial attraction in the 50s and 60s, people that didn't want to be under like the thumb of a government was still sort of a sentiment there.
41:59 Josh Clark? Yeah.
42:00 Speaker 02 They didn't want to assimilate to the, the larger sort of system because they had a system that they felt worked for them in whatever way that was. So I have a lot of respect for the people that were like, no, I don't want to leave. You can't kick me out of my home. But like you said, sadly, the last person was evicted in 1992. There were people burning Union Jacks, setting off homemade firecrackers and stuff. A few people actually physically battled the cops a little bit. But it wasn't, you know, it was a pretty small resistance. And in July of 92, the last person left.
42:32 Josh Clark? Yes. So there's nothing really left of Kowloon Walled City. It's just the footprint. This footprint has been around for hundreds of years and it will not go away. It's an indelible print on Hong Kong as a town, as an area on the Kowloon Peninsula. And even the, the Kai Tak Airport is gone now. They've moved the airport further away from the city center. Cause like you said, they had to be very careful descending. We've talked about it before. I don't remember, maybe like our air traffic control episode or something.
43:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:03 Josh Clark? Um, where like you basically had to clear the 14 story, uh, walled, walled city. And then suddenly dropped to hit the, the runway. It was really not well planned because there wasn't really a plan. So they moved the airport, they got rid of the Kowloon Walled City and now there's a park there in its place.
43:21 Speaker 02 Yeah. And I think they, uh, didn't that documentary say that original religious building is still there? It's like the only thing that's left from the, from the early days.
43:30 Josh Clark? It was the office of the administrator of the fort. And yes, it's still there. They preserved it in the Kowloon Walled City. That was what that courtyard was. It was built around that, that original office from the, I think the Qing Dynasty.
43:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, that was it. That's the only thing from the early days that's left. It's a, like you said, they, it's a green space and there's ponds. It's quite lovely. They, they do have a, um, table sized scale model of what was there. But yeah, it's still that same shape. Like if you do aerial shots, you know, it's, they really stuck to their parameters.
44:04 Josh Clark? Yeah.
44:04 Speaker 02 With the city, once the walls were gone and with this park, cause it's the exact same shape still. Uh, and you know, like we mentioned, it's been in a ton of, uh, either directly sort of been the setting for movies like in Bloodsport.
44:17 Josh Clark? Yeah.
44:18 Speaker 02 From Jean Claude Van Damme or been like heavily inspired, uh, by what the, sort of the look they were going after in video games and films.
44:26 Josh Clark? I don't care what you say, Bloodsport was a good movie.
44:29 Speaker 02 I, I, you know what? I didn't see a single Jean Claude Van Damme movie.
44:32 Josh Clark? I saw a time, I should, I'll tell you this off of, off.
44:35 Speaker 02 Okay.
44:37 Josh Clark? But anyway, I finally saw Bloodsport when I was, uh, not, not like a couple of years ago. And I was like, wow, this movie is actually really good.
44:44 Speaker 02 I, I gotta check it out.
44:46 Josh Clark? Oh, you should check it out. That's what I'm saying.
44:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, that, that's my new deal. Is Jean-Claude all the way?
44:52 Josh Clark? Okay.
44:53 Speaker 02 Where's he been?
44:54 Josh Clark? Uh, remember he had like a podcast or a TV show or something for a little while?
44:59 Speaker 02 He had a podcast, of course.
45:00 Josh Clark? Yeah, I think he did.
45:02 Speaker 02 Did he interview celebrities?
45:03 Josh Clark? It was a, no, I'm sorry. It was like a TV show where it was like,
45:06 Speaker 02 Oh, okay.
45:07 Josh Clark? It was a mockumentary or pseudo-reality where he played himself, but Jean-Claude Van Damme actually was a spy in real life or something like that.
45:15 Speaker 02 I don't, I haven't heard of that.
45:17 Josh Clark? I think it was short-lived.
45:18 Speaker 02 All right.
45:19 Josh Clark? Well, since Chuck has dedicated himself to watching Jean-Claude Van Damme movies all the time, that means obviously it's time for listener mail.
45:30 Speaker 02 All right. So this is a rare rebut to a listener mail. So a listener writing in about another listener mail. Because we had our Irish friend write in and point out that we were sort of engaging in Irish erasure.
45:43 Josh Clark? Right.
45:43 Speaker 02 So, hey, guys, while the emailer was correct that Shackleton was born in County Kildare, Shackleton himself would have considered himself British. He was born in Ireland while it was under British rule and moved to Great Britain when he was 10. He served in the British Army and was awarded many British honors. I myself am a proud Irishman, but I don't think you were wrong in calling him British.
46:03 Josh Clark? Wow.
46:04 Speaker 02 I'm happy to accept that, that he was correct. If there was a quote which shows that he considered himself Irish, Ireland in nationality is always a tricky subject. I hold a UK driver's license and an Irish passport. I have one child technically born in the UK and one born in Ireland with just 80 miles between the hospitals and them both being on the same island. Keep up the good work, guys. Been listening for years and I love the show. That is from Jamie Finnegan. And we're not going to wade into this any further, Jamie, because I know that stuff is very tricky.
46:36 Josh Clark? Yeah.
46:36 Speaker 02 So we have read the original email and now the rebuttal. And we're going to leave it to you guys to work it out.
46:42 Josh Clark? Nice. I think that's a great idea. And that was from Jamie, right?
46:46 Speaker 02 Yes, it is.
46:47 Josh Clark? Okay. Well, thanks a lot, Jamie. And if you want to be like Jamie, you can send us an email, too. Send it off to [email protected] .
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47:45 Speaker 03 In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military.
48:08 Josh Clark? Introducing Voices of Viv Guard. Viv Guard is also known as its generic name, F Guard Tigamod Alpha F Cab, and this new show features firsthand stories from people living with a rare disease. Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Viv Guard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Viv Guard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
48:41 Speaker 07 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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