Selects: How Miniature Golf Works

Playing miniature golf is a very fun thing to do and, you’re about to find, learning about its origin and history is very fun as well. Join Josh and Chuck in this classic episode as they tee off on the mini golf story! See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:32Josh Clark?

  Hey, everyone. I thought it would be nice to ring in the new year with an easy select filled with Chuck and me reminiscing about our childhood memories of putt-put and slush puppies. So for this week's select, I give you our August 2020 episode, A Miniature Golf. And I want to take a moment to wish my dear wife, Yumi, a happy birthday. So happy birthday, Yumi, and to you, dear listeners, Happy New Year.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 2:09Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there, and there's Jerry there, figuring out the new contrivances of modern life.

• 2:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, we should tell people what's going on. I think it's interesting, right?

• 2:24Josh Clark?

  No.

• 2:26Speaker 04

  Well, I'm gonna tell them.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  Fine.

• 2:28Speaker 04

  So Jerry has figured out now how to operate the Studio Macintosh recording system.

• 2:36Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 2:36Speaker 04

  And not be in the office.

• 2:39Josh Clark?

  It's pretty great. It's COVID-ific, actually.

• 2:42Speaker 04

  And so she was just up on our Skype on video, and she's still there, but when she switched it to mute, it went to that distressing picture. Do you see that thing?

• 2:52Josh Clark?

  No, I just see JR, like the letter J and the letter R.

• 2:56Speaker 04

  Oh, see, there she is. She's back.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 2:59Speaker 04

  When she turned it off, there was, I get a photograph of Jerry that looks like she's like sick in bed or something. It's weird.

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  This is, well, that's just Jerry's look.

• 3:10Speaker 04

  Maybe so. I don't know.

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  That's, that's a diet of nothing but miso for 15, 20 years will do for you.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  The weirdest thing is, this is as close as we've come to normal in four months.

• 3:21Josh Clark?

  I know. Not only is it like normal, it's almost like a throwback. Remember when we had the studio where we would look out the window when she was there?

• 3:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was great. This is kind of like this again.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  She was a window creeper.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  Yep. Professionally and in her personal life, too.

• 3:37Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 3:38Josh Clark?

  So this is stuff you should know, everybody. I don't know if I said it. There are probably a few people who were confused and aren't anymore, but we haven't gotten started yet. So prepare to be confused again when we explain something. In particular, Chuck, miniature golf.

• 3:54Speaker 04

  I gotta ask, are you a fan?

• 3:58Josh Clark?

  This made me want to play again. Like, I grew up playing putt-putt.

• 4:01Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 4:02Josh Clark?

  And have very fond memories of all the different colored golf balls.

• 4:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:07Josh Clark?

  You know, like the water trap that was really just a stagnant little puddle of concrete, you know?

• 4:13Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  But putt-putt was wonderful and great. And there were arcades and birthday parties there that featured heavily with G.I. Joe action figures and stuff like that, the good kind, the three and three-quarter inch ones.

• 4:24Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 4:25Josh Clark?

  And yeah, I am a fan, if not just nostalgically.

• 4:31Josh Clark?

  In general, yes.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  And which style, and as you, as a listener, will see soon, there are a couple of different things, but did you grow up playing just sort of the bare bones putt putt, or the more miniature golf, clown's mouth, windmill, volcano?

• 4:48Josh Clark?

  Well, Chuck, if you ask me if I had a rich childhood, I will always tell you, yes, sir, yes, I did. And the reason why is because I grew up having putt putt close by in Toledo, and we played that a lot. And then when my family would vacation in the summers on Catawba Island on Lake Erie, and this was like pre-cleaned up Lake Erie, there was a, like a rundown little, like mini golf with like clown's mouths and windmills and all that stuff, right by the place where we used to stay, like walking distance. And so we'd play there a lot, too. So I had the best of both worlds, a really great, just top notch childhood.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  So I grew up playing putt putt at Stone Mountain Park, which we went to a lot, because it was near our church and the youth group would go and do putt putt nights and stuff. So that was a lot of fun. And I was sort of partial to those that were like, you know, the real putt putt where it requires a little bit of skill. But I am also a sucker for the beach town, volcano, waterfall, go kart, bumper boat, arcade scene.

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  Yep. Don't forget laser tag.

• 6:08Speaker 04

  I never really did laser tag. I think that came around a little after I was, you know, in my prime years for this kind of thing.

• 6:16Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. Yeah, it wasn't, same here. But I was looking up now, they have laser tag at putt putt places.

• 6:22Speaker 04

  But I still love those go karts, man. When we go to Isle of Palms last year, I found a place nearby. And I was like, we gotta go. And everyone was kind of like, oh, I don't know. And the kids are sort of like, yeah, I guess I'll do it. And I was like, guys, we gotta go.

• 6:34Josh Clark?

  Right. Like, what is wrong with all of you? Who are you vacationing with, Chuck?

• 6:37Speaker 04

  Oh, man, it was so much fun.

• 6:38Josh Clark?

  Is there a carbon monoxide leak at the house you rent?

• 6:41Speaker 04

  No, those go karts, I could do that all day long.

• 6:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  And of course, I got the guy, you know, the teenager, squeaky voice teenager. And I said, hey, man, which one, which is the fast one? And he was like, number eight.

• 6:57Josh Clark?

  Really?

• 6:57Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. And sure enough, it was really fast.

• 7:00Josh Clark?

  You just ran circles around everybody?

• 7:02Speaker 04

  I did, such that I even laid off on the gas a little bit just to catch up and let people, you know, act like they had outraced me.

• 7:09Josh Clark?

  What a sportsman.

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, goodness. Well, we'll talk about go-karts one day more in depth, but today we're just gonna focus on the miniature golf, okay?

• 7:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, this has a pretty interesting history, I think.

• 7:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I had no idea how far back it went until we started researching this. And actually, it goes all the way back to the 19th century. And this is one of those rare things that's been around a while, but you can actually pinpoint like the first one. And the first miniature golf course in the world, as far as anybody knows, is at St. Andrews. It's the Ladies Putting Club of St. Andrews. And it was built in 1867 strictly for the women members of the Ladies Putting Club.

• 7:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a couple of things at play here, actually really just one thing, which is not letting women do things.

• 7:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  Because there was a decree, basically, that women shall not take the club back past their shoulder. So in other words...

• 8:08Josh Clark?

  The 11th commandment.

• 8:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, like a real golf swing, in other words, was, I guess, improper for a lady to do.

• 8:15Josh Clark?

  The Victorian era was just so stupid when it came to social constraints.

• 8:21Speaker 04

  I'm trying to figure out why. Does that... I don't know.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Patriarchy, I would guess.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  Well, I just wonder why a full golf swing, would it make their dress rate rise a little above the ankle? Or like, I just wonder why?

• 8:35Josh Clark?

  I think also women were expected to not overexert themselves physically, especially in public, too. So you could kind of construe that as overexertion.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  Well, and then there's this, which is from an 1890 book by Scottish Baron Lord Wellwood, talking about women and when they should golf and when they shouldn't golf. If they choo... I was gonna do a Scottish accent, but I'm just not feeling it. "If they choose to play at times when male golfers are feeding or resting, no one can object. But at other times, must we say it, they are in the way."

• 9:12Josh Clark?

  It was kind of snarky to add even the must we say it. Like, do I even need to write this next sentence? It's so just drippingly obvious.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  But the long, the upshot of this is that's why they created the ladies putting club is just to sort of get rid of them.

• 9:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, to get them out of the way of the men. But the joke was on the men because this putting green, this first miniature golf course in the world is still around and it's still considered one of the finest. It's actually nicknamed the Himalayas because it has all these kind of mountains and hills and hillocks all built into it.

• 9:48Josh Clark?

  And they really kind of stand out from what I understand against like the Scottish seascape. And it's a really revered miniature golf course, but it is exactly what it sounds like. It is a golf course in miniature, like just like you take a classic golf course of the variety that was born in Scotland and you just kind of hit it with a shrink ray.

• 10:10Josh Clark?

  And then you have a genuine bona fide miniature golf course. And that's how the whole thing started out.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's what we would call like a par three today, right?

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  Kind of, it seems like par three courses are a little different. So this is like, yes, I think it does require more than just a putter.

• 10:31Speaker 04

  Right.

• 10:32Josh Clark?

  And a par three would require more than a putter. But there seems to be a few different other kinds of golf courses aside from the miniature golf course. There's the par three, the pitch and putt and executive courses all kind of qualify technically as miniature golf courses in different ways.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, the executive course, they got the name because evidently an executive could go play a quick round during lunch.

• 10:57Speaker 04

  A lot of par threes, you might have a like one par five and a couple of par fours.

• 11:02Josh Clark?

  Is that right? On a par three?

• 11:04Speaker 04

  On an executive course.

• 11:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay. Yeah, that's what, that's really the only thing from what I can tell that differentiates it from a par three course.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's a golf course that's just shorter and therefore doesn't take as long.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and it's not like the hole is smaller and the ball is smaller and the clubs are smaller. Like, just, just get out of your fantasy land there. Instead, it's just the, the distance from the tee to the hole is shorter. There's fewer bends and, and stuff like that, so the actual experience takes less time and less energy and you can just kind of fit it in in a shorter amount of time. And I think that's the popularity of those things generally. Although pitch and putt courses, I also saw, they're, um, they usually consist of a wedge and iron and a putter, what you need to play on those. And they're all about the focus on the short game.

• 11:55Josh Clark?

  Uh, and as a result, um, men and women, just average men and women who play golf can kind of compete pretty evenly. Because it's all about the short game. It's all about finesse. Rather than, you know, just sheer power of driving as far as you can on like a traditional golf course.

• 12:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I'd love golf. I just don't play anymore. Like, I grew up playing golf and was not good, but I wasn't terrible. Uh, for as much as I played. And I still like it. I just don't, you know, have the time or the inclination anymore, but, um, I like the big boy courses with the big par fives, but I also love a fun little par three, like, uh, Florida has a lot of these beautiful par threes, including some you can play at night that are all lit up. Um, and that's always a lot of fun, too.

• 12:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I, I tried to get acquainted with golf as a youngster. Um, my family had, weirdly enough, because this is not like my family at all, had a, um, membership at Heather Downs Country Club in Toledo.

• 12:51Speaker 04

  Well.

• 12:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And I loved the pool because they had like, you know, tons of slush puppies and the best like nasty hot dogs you can imagine. And there was a pool and all that. I think I told you the story about Swim League, the swim team where I was the worst swimmer on it.

• 13:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:08Josh Clark?

  But I also tried to golf for a couple of summers and it just didn't, didn't take it up. But I was back in Toledo like a couple of years ago, I think right before our Cleveland show. And I visited the country club. Well, I just drove by. And I looked and the pool is now just like a green field. It's been filled in, like the little, the little snack shop has been torn down. I'm like, something really bad must have happened there for them to do that to the pool, you know?

• 13:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's the, and I didn't get to go here much because it was private, but Hidden Hills was a big neighborhood near my house that had a country club.

• 13:44Josh Clark?

  That's still around, isn't it?

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Well, the neighborhood's there, but you know, the neighborhood has seen its better days and the, the country club and golf course is completely just shut down and grown over. It's really, it looks, well, it is an abandoned place.

• 13:58Josh Clark?

  That's so cool.

• 13:59Speaker 04

  It is kind of cool. And then, and then I had the idea of a movie, like a old school type thing where a bunch of old, a bunch of like middle aged men that grew up there, go back and raise some money and try and like clean the place up and get it going again.

• 14:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  To hilarity.

• 14:15Josh Clark?

  There has to be like a greedy developer that they're battling, right?

• 14:18Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:19Josh Clark?

  So is that the neighborhood that we got kicked out of when we tried to go shoot, like without a license once around that area? Remember the security guard came up and was like, stop what you're doing?

• 14:30Speaker 04

  I don't remember that.

• 14:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it happened one day.

• 14:33Speaker 04

  Was it on the TV show or a short?

• 14:34Josh Clark?

  Some guerrilla. No, it was like when we were shooting shorts, I think.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't remember that.

• 14:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I'm pretty sure that was the one.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  Should we take a break already?

• 14:45Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 14:46Speaker 04

  Okay. All right. We'll get back and we'll talk about where many golf went from here, right after this.

• 15:03Speaker 05

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• 17:07Josh Clark?

  All right, so we're back. Nothing we've talked about right now constitutes miniature golf in the mind of anybody who hears the words miniature golf, right? True. Like, what comes to mind are things like putt-putt, or goofy golf, or windmills, or clowns, or Happy Gilmore, or something like that, right? Yeah. So that all started...

• 17:27Josh Clark?

  Actually, that didn't quite start yet. That was really leading up to that. And then I realized we had to keep going with regular miniature golf one more time, because it has to spread to America. And it did. And we can actually trace that, too, to the house of a guy named James Barber, who is an immigrant from England, who was familiar with the course, the Ladies Putting Club at St. Andrews. And he was rich enough that he said, you know, I want a miniature golf course built on my estate at Pinehurst, North Carolina. And he did. He had like an 18-hole miniature course built right there in his his formal gardens. And it's just absolutely beautiful.

• 18:05Speaker 04

  It is nice. And this was the first one in the United States. And as it's called Thistledhu, T-H-I-S-T-L-E-D-H-U. And supposedly, as legend goes, he, when he first saw it, he said, this'll do. I guess he was, he was not blown away, maybe? I don't know. Sounds a little underwhelmed.

• 18:26Josh Clark?

  I'm hoping he wasn't one of those spoiled, you know, robber barons, and instead was like, this'll do. This'll do quite nicely. And they just left off the second part, you know?

• 18:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, but it's called Thistledhu. And they started hosting competitions a couple of years later. And I think this is the first time miniature golf was ever used, like those words were ever used, to describe the Pinehurst Outlook. Was that the newspaper, I guess?

• 18:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's their one claim to fame.

• 18:56Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 18:57Josh Clark?

  You know it's true, though.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  It's probably true.

• 19:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah. But they were the one in that, in a account of the competition, they coined the term miniature golf. Up to that point, a lot of people had called it Lilliputian golf.

• 19:10Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 19:11Josh Clark?

  After the, the little people in Gulliver's Travels.

• 19:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:16Josh Clark?

  And that actually, that name actually stuck for quite a while. So we've got James Barber, who hosted or built the first miniature golf course in America, but still, this thing is like directly connected to the Ladies Putting Club of St. Andrews. It's a golf course in miniature. We still haven't quite reached what we would consider miniature golf. And that wouldn't happen until 1926, which turned out to be a really big year for miniature golf in America. It was like there was something in the air and a few different people kind of tapped into it around the same time. And it suddenly just took off like a rocket.

• 19:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, two of the guys were some entrepreneurs named Drake Delanoi, I guess.

• 20:01Josh Clark?

  Great name.

• 20:02Speaker 04

  And John Ledbetter, another good name.

• 20:04Josh Clark?

  It's okay. He sounds like he'll, he'll shoot you.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  Who Ledbetter?

• 20:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can see that. They did a pretty cool thing, which is they opened up a course on top of a rooftop in the financial district in New York. And that kicked off a trend. There were, I think, about 100 of those on top of roofs. I guess this is before the big rooftop bar hotel scene. They had golf courses up there.

• 20:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, miniature golf courses. Again, though, those were like miniature golf courses. So that, I mean, that was a big deal. In New York, just 100 rooftop golf, miniature golf courses alone in the 20s. That's, that's a tremendous amount. And I don't think there's a single one left, actually.

• 20:49Speaker 04

  There should be.

• 20:51Josh Clark?

  There's, there's, so that kind of makes the whole, you know, there's one on, on top of Pont City Market where the House of Works office is.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  Is there golf up there?

• 21:00Josh Clark?

  There's a miniature golf course up there and it makes a lot more sense now. Yeah, it's kind of like a whole mini Coney Island up there.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, I think I've only been up there when we had work events and the only thing I did was the slide.

• 21:13Josh Clark?

  I didn't know there was a slide.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's like a, you know, you sit in a potato sack and go down this big slide.

• 21:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  I did that. That was fun.

• 21:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's a miniature golf course up there. We'll have to play sometime when the whole pandemic passes.

• 21:26Speaker 04

  Totally. And then later that same year, you said it was kind of a boom year for mini golf. Lookout Mountain, Tennessee, in Chattanooga, which is a place where I think everybody should go to see Ruby Falls and Rock City.

• 21:39Josh Clark?

  Oh, yes.

• 21:40Speaker 04

  It is a tourist trap, but it's actually kind of neat.

• 21:44Josh Clark?

  I mean, the greatest of the great tourist traps, and it still holds up, too.

• 21:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Get a pecan log.

• 21:52Josh Clark?

  Oh, my God.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  Those are so good.

• 21:54Josh Clark?

  They are so good. That also supports my theory that candy was perfected in the 19th century.

• 22:01Speaker 04

  I'd never heard that theory.

• 22:02Josh Clark?

  Remember nougat, honeycomb?

• 22:04Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 22:04Josh Clark?

  Pecan logs?

• 22:07Speaker 04

  I didn't know pecan logs were from way back then, but I believe it.

• 22:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. They're definitely old timey.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  So these people, Garnett and Frida Carter, they built a resort called Fairyland Club. And it was part of that whole sort of interconnected scene there with Rock City and Ruby Falls. And they built a miniature golf course. And they said, you know what? If you like golf, maybe you should try mini golf because it doesn't take very long. It'll kind of scratch that itch if you're not able to play a real round. And that's sort of how they marketed it at first. And they were the first people, I think, to start adding the obstacles, right?

• 22:50Josh Clark?

  They did, yeah. And they used, as they were building like the inn and the resort complex, they used some of the construction materials like drain pipes and, you know, barrels and things like that, and built them as hazards. And then because they had this whole like fairy tale theme going up there, they also built Rock City. They were the ones who built Rock City. And that has like a cool little weird, weird, but also very neat fairy tale theme kind of hidden throughout. They they added that to their miniature golf course. So they they had these stationary obstacles and hazards that they added. And then they also added this statuary of cute

• 23:30Josh Clark?

  little, you know, Mother Goose type stuff. And they actually called the whole thing Tom Thumb Golf. And Tom Thumb, from what I understand, is the earliest recorded English fairy tale character from back in 1621. And he was a little tiny guy, the size of his father's thumb, which is where he got his name. So it was a pretty appropriate name. They they must have really like, been pretty pleased with themselves when they decided to call it Tom Thumb Golf, because it really, it checked all the boxes.

• 23:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, and we should mention too, we keep saying Rock City, and if you're not from the southeast, you might think it's just some like redneck area with a bunch of rocks. It's actually a very sweet, natural wonder. It's it's caves that you walk through.

• 24:14Josh Clark?

  Caves, it's huge boulders being held up by much, much smaller boulders.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's really neat.

• 24:20Josh Clark?

  That way for probably tens of thousands of years that you walk under. There's like, yeah, there there's little cave areas that you kind of duck into, and they have little fairy tale scenes with fluorescent day or fluorescent, um, yeah, I guess kind of day glow.

• 24:35Speaker 04

  It's like glow in the dark.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  Weird like gnomes in in fairy tale scenes.

• 24:40Speaker 04

  Like, that's the weird part. It's like if Carlsbad Caverns had, you know, some corny fairy theme.

• 24:48Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm. And then Ruby Falls is really neat, too.

• 24:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:52Josh Clark?

  It's a very cool, like, natural attraction that they've done a good job of like.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  Underground waterfall.

• 24:57Josh Clark?

  Making it easy to to make your way to. But yeah, it's a, the whole thing is definitely worth going to. And then, of course, they have this, the very famous like Sea Rock City barnsides that everybody's heard of.

• 25:08Speaker 04

  And burgesses.

• 25:10Josh Clark?

  That was Garnet Carter, who painted one man or paid one man to go around and offer to to give a fresh coat of paint to barns all throughout the southeast.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  It's great.

• 25:19Josh Clark?

  In exchange for letting them paint Sea Rock City on the side.

• 25:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, um, if you've ever driven around the North Carolina, South Carolina area and south of the border. You know what I'm talking about?

• 25:30Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm. South of the Mason Dixon line?

• 25:33Speaker 04

  No, South of the Border is the name of this sort of highway tourist trap.

• 25:38Josh Clark?

  Oh, no, I haven't heard of that.

• 25:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's the same deal. I think it's, I want to say it's North Carolina, but it's basically like a glorified rest stop with, that has a Mexican theme. Where you can go like, I don't know, see a mariachi band and eat good food and buy cheap jockeys.

• 25:55Josh Clark?

  The only mariachi band in all of North Carolina?

• 25:58Speaker 04

  But what made me think about it, it might be, was that they have the same thing for like hundreds of miles in any direction for South of the Border and Rock City. They're very famous for these billboards that tell you like, oh, it's coming, you're getting closer, you're getting closer.

• 26:13Josh Clark?

  That's really strange that I've never heard of that then.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, South of the Border, check it out.

• 26:17Josh Clark?

  Must not have been paying attention. So, so the car is built like this Tom Thumb Golf Course. And again, originally, they just did this as kind of an amenity at their Fairyland Inn and Fairyland Club.

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  But it was such a smash hit and Garnet Carter was such a like born businessman that they, they, they were like, I think there might be something to this. And they saw, either they saw it out or he saw it them out. I'm not quite sure how it happened. But there was another guy who really factors bigly into this whole story. But he's very frequently overlooked and his name is Thomas McCullough Fairburn. McCullough Fairburn. Yeah. And he invented a really cheap and easy technique for creating artificial putting greens that could be used for miniature golf courses.

• 27:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was crushed cottonseed holes, oil, you would dye it green. And they would come in these big rolls and you just roll it over this foundation of sand. And boom, you've got an easy way basically to sort of franchise these things with these prefab kits that they, they had. And people loved it because it was, you know, when it was, they called it midget golf for a little while, not a term we would use today, but that's what they called it in the 1920s.

• 27:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:38Speaker 04

  And this factors in to a lot of the stuff we've been talking about the 1920s lately, just these weird fads that would pop up and tom thumb golf was one of them.

• 27:47Josh Clark?

  It was, and part of the reason that it got out from Lookout Mountain is because the Carters and Fairburn kind of joined forces and used his technique for making these greens very cheaply and used their kind of like touch of whimsy, packaged it together and started selling it, prepackaged sets or prefabricated sets that could be franchised out to anybody who wanted to start their own tom thumb golf course. And so they spread really, really quickly. And like you were saying, like the 20s, they were just looking for whatever craze could come along, crossword puzzles, dance marathons, flagpole sitting. Well, apparently miniature golf was the king of them all as far as the 20s crazes went.

• 28:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is a pretty startling statistic.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  In August of 1930, the Commerce Department said that there were, and apparently this could be low by even as much as half, 25,000, 25,000 mini golf courses in the US, half of which were built in that previous six or eight months of the year.

• 28:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's a boom right there.

• 28:55Speaker 04

  Can you imagine like in eight months, like 12,000 to 15,000 mini golf courses being built in the US? It's crazy.

• 29:03Josh Clark?

  I can just imagine Garnet and Frida Carter just rolling around on a bed of money in their suite at the Ferry Land Inn.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I mean, in a legit, like, job boosting market.

• 29:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, well, that's, that's another thing too, right? I mean, like, there was, um, a

• 29:21Josh Clark?

  Like flagpole sitting didn't make the transition to the depression and dance marathons did, but they got kind of grim. Apparently miniature golf, and I've seen both, but miniature golf seems to have made the transition from twenties craze to, you know, kind of national pastime.

• 29:39Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 29:39Josh Clark?

  That made sense in the depression because you could take your whole family out to play miniature golf for pretty cheap.

• 29:45Speaker 04

  It's probably like a nickel or something.

• 29:47Josh Clark?

  That was a big attraction. And then also, if you were like a golf junkie, but all of a sudden you didn't have the money to afford greens fees any longer, at the very least, you could go play some miniature golf somewhere. So it kind of scratched that itch to a certain, a certain degree. So there was like a lot of popularity that even after the craze kind of crested and waned a little bit, it still carried on pretty thoroughly through the 1930s. And as a matter of fact, Chuck, some, for some people were like, that Tom Thumb Golf, the official franchise Tom Thumb Golf, it's a little rich for my blood. What else you got for me?

• 30:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, why can't we just do this?

• 30:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly. Local entrepreneurs were like, I got exactly the thing, buddy. You want to play half-priced miniature golf?

• 30:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:35Josh Clark?

  Come on in.

• 30:36Speaker 04

  Like, I've got a bunch of PVC pipe laying around.

• 30:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Or, yeah. So just basically whatever found objects you could find, you could, you could come across what were called rinky-dink miniature golf courses that were basically knockoff Tom Thumb courses that used whatever found objects the person who built it had lying around.

• 30:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, New York had about 150 of them. Washington DC had 30. One of those is still around, the East Potomac Park course.

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 31:06Speaker 04

  And, yeah, the whole family could get involved. And I think one of the, the keys then and now to mini golf being popular, and then putt-putt, which we'll see here in a minute, is that you don't even have to like golf at all. You can hate golf and still go do putt-putt and probably have a good time.

• 31:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, as long as you don't take it too seriously. Don't take it too seriously.

• 31:30Speaker 04

  No, please don't.

• 31:32Josh Clark?

  Just relax.

• 31:32Speaker 04

  Don't be that guy.

• 31:34Josh Clark?

  That's what it's for. You want to take a break and then talk putt-putt?

• 31:37Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 31:38Josh Clark?

  Okay, let's do that, everybody.

• 31:52Speaker 05

  This stress check, AKA friendly reminder that your hobbies matter, is brought to you by State Farm, because you deserve to lose yourself in the stuff that brings you joy. Here's mine: painting my tabletop battle miniatures. Yeah, seriously. After a long day, I grab a brush, pop in some music, and just get into it. And there's no wrong way to do it. It helps me clear my head, slow down, and just breathe. But it works. Big stress, mini warriors, total reset. No pressure, just paint, creativity, and a little reminder of what makes me happy. Some people bake, some people garden. Me, I paint warriors with interesting tech. And guess what? It works. You don't have to be good at your hobby, you just have to enjoy it.

• 32:37Speaker 05

  So carve out that time, tune out the noise, and do something that's just for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 32:46Speaker 06

  Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. Imagine your business depends on a system you didn't build and don't fully control. For years, it works perfectly. It's fast, reliable, affordable. So over time, more and more of your operations rely on it. Then one day, the terms change. What once felt flexible now feels difficult to leave. Moving to another provider or bringing those capabilities back under your own control could take years, cost millions, and disrupt the business in the process. That's the challenge of digital sovereignty.

• 33:24Josh Clark?

  Businesses today rely on all sorts of third-party systems: cloud platforms, data pipelines, AI models, software tools. Most days, these systems operate quietly in the background. But when something changes, like costs go up or rules shift, organizations are forced to confront how much control and flexibility they actually have. So to understand the challenge up close, I traveled to Paris to speak with IBM's Ana Paula Assis and Assis CIO Giovanni Doniello, two people who think about these questions every day. Hear the full conversation at ibm.com/smarttalks or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:22Speaker 04

  Are we there?

• 34:24Josh Clark?

  Who, me?

• 34:24Speaker 04

  Are we there? Are we at butt butt?

• 34:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, I thought you said, are you there? I'm like, yeah, I'm here. We are there, Chuck, because let me set the table here. You ready?

• 34:33Speaker 04

  Yes, I'm hungry.

• 34:35Josh Clark?

  America got a little burned out on miniature golf, especially the tom thumb and rinky-ding varieties. And so a lot of it died out, but some remained, some hopped along, some are still around today, actually. And by the 1950s, there was a guy who was playing at one of these courses in Fayetteville, North Carolina, which remember is the home of miniature golf in the United States, North Carolina is. And he happened to have just gotten a prescription from his doctor saying, you're about to have a nervous breakdown. I prescribe you a month's rest from work. And this guy, Don Clayton, said, can do. And he started playing miniature golf. But he wasn't quite satisfied with it.

• 35:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I imagine if you're on the verge of a nervous breakdown, then tom thumb golf is a nice salve for that kind of experience.

• 35:29Josh Clark?

  Sure, if, if you're charmed by all the whimsical stuff.

• 35:33Speaker 04

  And you don't take it too seriously.

• 35:35Josh Clark?

  Right. From what I understand, though, Don Clayton was like, this whimsy sucks. We need something better than this. And I think I'm just the person to build it.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so he had the idea to To basically make miniature golf, but without all the garbage, no clown's mouths, no windmills, and have a little like, have a little skill involved. Like, you can go out there and if you're like a good putter, you can actually compete and have a good time. And it's still for fun, but it's just not a silly kids' game anymore.

• 36:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like anybody who's been to an actual putt-putt course can tell you that it's, I mean, there's a lot of obstacles and it's interesting and fun and there's some neat stuff, but it just does not have all of like the, the moving bells and whistles that you're gonna see on like other kinds of miniature golf, like goofy golf.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  Nah, like the obstacles are usually just like some blocks in the way and stuff like that.

• 36:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 04

  That you have to hit around, or bank it around.

• 36:37Josh Clark?

  Elevated rhombuses or things like that, or like a labyrinth, you know, built into it. It's not like a clown's mouth or anything like that, which is kinda like the go-to description for goofy golf, isn't it really?

• 36:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I think like the craziest thing you'll see on a putt-putt course is where you, those that are like two levels, and you can hit it into three different holes at the top.

• 36:59Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  And you're like, you kind of take a little bit of a gamble as to where it's gonna come out on the bottom.

• 37:05Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 37:05Speaker 04

  It'll either come out close to the hole, so you can get that par two, and I think they're all par twos on a real putt-putt course.

• 37:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:12Speaker 04

  Or it'll spit you out way far away, but you still have a chance to hit that long putt for the, for the two.

• 37:17Josh Clark?

  Sure. There's always a chance for you, a second chance at putt-putt.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  I think that was the motto.

• 37:23Josh Clark?

  So, um, yeah, but, so this was Don Clayton's vision. He was like, I wanna make this a little less goofy. I wanna make it a little more interesting and skillful.

• 37:34Speaker 04

  Less goofy, more golfy.

• 37:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah Chuck. Man, he just sat up from his grave going, I wish I'd thought of that.

• 37:41Speaker 04

  Is he dead?

• 37:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he died in 1996.

• 37:44Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 37:45Josh Clark?

  But he had a good run. I mean, this is 1954 when he was a 28-year-old man that he decided to try this. So he went to his dad and said, hey, I've got this, I've got this idea. Rather than basically, as a New York Times obituary put it, rather than basically, basically making a a human-sized pinball machine for golf, we're going to make this a little more interesting. How about we cobble together 5,200 bucks and we're going to build our own little miniature golf course? And he did, in like a shaded little lot. And with that 5,200 dollars, they opened for business. And within 29 days, he and his father had made 100% of their investment back. And Don Clayton said, I think there might be something to this whole thing.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, so he, he was initially going to call it, he went to the bank to open a business account and he had to fill out the paperwork and he was going to call it the Shady Vale Golf Course.

• 38:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, this is hilarious.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  As the story goes, he didn't know how to spell vale, I guess if it was V A I L or V A L E. So he just said, uh, putt putt. And wrote down putt putt. It wasn't something he brainstormed. Apparently, it was just sort of on a whim. And it's a name that really, really stuck. It's kind of brilliant in its simplicity, I think.

• 39:07Josh Clark?

  Divine inspiration, it almost feels like, that it just kind of happened on a whim. That's just absolutely great. But he started to kind of build the whole thing into like this enormous industry pretty quickly because he was right. You know, there's, I did the math, if they made their 5,200 dollars back in 29 days, that means that over that month, they had 20,800 paying customers.

• 39:31Speaker 04

  Well, it was a quarter a game?

• 39:33Josh Clark?

  They had 25 cents a game, yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 04

  That's a lot of people.

• 39:35Josh Clark?

  And so when they really got together and started putt putt, like they, he was right. He was on to something and it started to take off pretty quickly. Apparently at its peak,

• 39:46Josh Clark?

  When you and I were going to putt putt.

• 39:49Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 39:49Josh Clark?

  They were, they had something like 256 courses throughout the world. Mostly in the US and Canada, but also in Australia and South Africa and New Zealand. And it was, it was definitely a thing. Like you said, all of the holes were par twos, right?

• 40:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. And this was just, to be clear, 256 doesn't sound like a lot compared to the 50,000 that they had in the 1930s, but this was his, his own putt putt golfing games franchise.

• 40:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:22Speaker 04

  There was plenty of more putt putt going on in the United States than that.

• 40:27Josh Clark?

  Right, right, right. Yeah. Like knockoff putt putt, right?

• 40:30Speaker 04

  Yeah. Like the one at Stone Mountain Park wasn't a putt putt golfing games. It was just putt putt. But it was, it was great.

• 40:36Josh Clark?

  It's called tap tap.

• 40:39Speaker 04

  They also had trail skate across from the putt putt, which was a roller skating trail through the woods.

• 40:47Josh Clark?

  What?

• 40:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. It was like this two mile paved, you know, just basically like a big paved sidewalk through the woods. And they rented roller skates and you would just skate through the woods. It was really cool.

• 40:58Josh Clark?

  Man, that's awesome. Country folk just have some of the best ideas for businesses. You know what I mean?

• 41:04Speaker 04

  I didn't think of us as country folk, but I guess it kind of was.

• 41:07Josh Clark?

  Roller skating through the woods is country.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  I guess it is.

• 41:11Josh Clark?

  That's like Dolly Parton level country.

• 41:14Speaker 04

  So, yeah, they're all par twos and it is, it is tough. It's challenging. Apparently in the 65 year history of putt putt, there have only been three perfect games where you walk away with a score of 18, which is, that's, that's really tough to do.

• 41:31Josh Clark?

  I mean, like of the millions and millions of games that of putt putt that people have played, only three people have ever, ever gotten a perfect game, which kind of shows you how like deceptively hard a putt putt course is, you know? Like each one of those, each one of those courses is made of, I think they have something like 108 trademarked holes.

• 41:54Speaker 04

  Right.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  Or like lanes, I think is what they're called in miniature golf. To where you can just kind of take them and reconfigure them into different, different configurations. But they have 108 total and I guess each one of them is. Very, very difficult. I don't ever remember getting a perfect game or even imagining that I was going to get a perfect game.

• 42:15Speaker 04

  No, I mean, you get two or three holes in one, and that's a, that's a good day.

• 42:20Josh Clark?

  For sure. So 18, there's actually a short, I think, seven and a half minute Grantland documentary on the most recent perfect putt-putt game by a guy named Rick Baird, who had his perfect game in 2011.

• 42:34Speaker 04

  Can you imagine the tension on hole 18?

• 42:37Josh Clark?

  They capture it really well in this, in this documentary. It's really well done. They've got like, like a cartoon version of him putting, and he's got like cartoon sweat just running down his face.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Oh, man.

• 42:49Josh Clark?

  Really great.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  I'd be so nervous.

• 42:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It was very nervous, and he did it. And he's actually a miniature golf pro in his spare time, which we'll talk about later. But there's, so he's from Charlotte. Don Clayton was from Fayetteville, and then Joseph Barber was from Pinehurst. So it seems pretty clear that North Carolina is the ancestral home of miniature golf, or at least the spiritual home of miniature golf in the world, frankly. I'm just going to say it in the world.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. And if you're looking for the creators of the kind of mechanized courses, you can go to 1955 in Scranton, PA with Ralph and Al Loma. Previous to this, you know, you had the putt-putt, which just had the sort of regular obstacles. You had the tom thum, which had kind of more outrageous whimsy, but still things weren't moving. And these are the guys that brought in these rotating windmill blades or ramps that move back and forth. And they really kind of kicked that to the next level. And they, you know, they went into business big time. They started mass producing these things, like the actual components, and sold a ton of them all over the world.

• 44:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think like 5,000 courses.

• 44:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:06Josh Clark?

  Which is pretty impressive. They're the ones who came up with what we think of now as like miniature golf and goofy golf with the moving stuff.

• 44:13Speaker 04

  Not a fan.

• 44:14Josh Clark?

  The clown mouth. Don't forget the clown mouth that opens and closes, or, yeah, like you say, a windmill. So it's kind of interesting that Don Clayton brought miniature golf back to its... Roots of being a lot more like regular golf. And then very shortly after that, branched off the Lomas, who brought it back to their, that tom Thumb roots. So that whole thing, the evolution of miniature golf happened twice in just the same way. Isn't that interesting?

• 44:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, and it also came back full circle in the 90s with a return to sort of that original miniature golf. Because real golfers, people like Jack Nicklaus started to get involved. I'm sure there were dollar signs, you know, in his eyes.

• 45:00Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 45:02Speaker 04

  But he also probably loved it. I don't want to be cynical, but I'm sure he made some money. But they have competitions, you know, there are actual prize purses. There is a US Pro Mini Golf Association. They have their own little US Open. I don't think they call it the Little US Open.

• 45:20Josh Clark?

  They should though.

• 45:21Speaker 04

  They totally should. There's the World Mini Golf Sports Federation in Germany. And they sort of are the body that standardizes the obstacles and stuff like that on, I guess, what you can have and what you can't have.

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 04

  Which is kind of funny when you think about it.

• 45:38Josh Clark?

  It is, but it's a pretty interesting list. You're like, oh, that'd be tough. Oh, that's hard. The sloped circle with a V obstacle?

• 45:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:45Josh Clark?

  That's just plain difficult. And I think they should call it the Teeny Weeny US Open.

• 45:52Speaker 04

  Welcome back to the Teeny Weeny US Open.

• 45:55Josh Clark?

  I was looking at the US Pro Mini Golf Association's website and there was a Tennessee State Open. And man, the picture that they have of that course, it looks serious, dude.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:09Josh Clark?

  So like, if you, if you go to putt putt and you always were like, I love this, this is so challenging. I can score like a 16 some, or I guess not a 16. I just don't play the last two holes when I'm on a streak. You know, like a 20 or a 22 or something like that. You might actually have fun being a miniature golf pro. And there are some serious courses out there for you to play that are a couple of notches above your average putt putt course.

• 46:38Speaker 04

  I'd like to play one of those.

• 46:40Josh Clark?

  Would you, I don't know if I would have fun.

• 46:42Speaker 04

  I'd make a run. Should we talk about some of these famous courses?

• 46:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so from what I can tell, the United States is the home of miniature golf. It's the capital of miniature golf. I don't believe there's any country, like I was looking, I was like, maybe Thailand is like even more into it than the United States. I don't think so. I think the United States is the place that has the most miniature golf courses and has probably the most paying customers for miniature golf courses.

• 47:13Speaker 04

  I could see Japan.

• 47:14Josh Clark?

  I could too, but I didn't see anything like that. Yeah, I didn't see anything like it. So, the United States is the home of miniature golf and the world capital of miniature golf then is Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Which is ironic that it's not North Carolina, but it's not everybody, I'm sorry.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, Myrtle Beach is sort of one of those classic old school beach towns that has all of the go-karts and the bumper boats and the mini golf. And they have one called Molten Mountain that's pretty cool. Like, you should go check out pictures of some of these places, they're a lot of fun. That has a volcano, a working volcano that erupts every half hour. And it's sort of an inside and an out thing. Like, I think it's both indoors and outdoors, right?

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  It is, yeah. It's a pretty, it's a pretty great one. And the whole volcano thing, they're not the only one. That's how nutso Myrtle Beach is. There's another one called Hawaiian Rumble that also has a functioning volcano, too. And in fact, on Highway 17, there's a 30-mile stretch of it that goes through Myrtle Beach, where there's 50, more than 50 miniature golf courses in a 30-mile stretch.

• 48:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of opinions on which ones are good and which ones stink.

• 48:25Josh Clark?

  Yep. There's one I want to go to in Palatine, Illinois. I think I saw a couple of these from Travel and Leisure, maybe. This one's called Algrim Acres, A-L-G-H-R-I-M Acres. It's in Palatine, Illinois, and it's a funeral home, like, for real, in real life.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, you know, uh, they, they take care of dead bodies. And you can also play nine holes on their death themed course in the basement.

• 48:54Josh Clark?

  In the basement. First of all, the basement of a funeral home is just creepy on its own.

• 48:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:59Josh Clark?

  But a death themed miniature golf course in a funeral home that actually functions, that's, that's just downright interesting.

• 49:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's this one in Las Vegas too, the Kiss themed one, which I checked out on YouTube. I would, I would play this even though it goes against two things for me, which is not into indoor miniature golf. I really would like to be outside, uh, and I think Kiss sucks.

• 49:25Josh Clark?

  What? I thought you were a Kiss fan.

• 49:27Speaker 04

  No.

• 49:28Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, I thought you were a Kiss fan.

• 49:30Speaker 04

  No, not a Kiss fan. Never, I mean, you know, I get it and I think it's kind of fun and funny.

• 49:35Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 49:36Speaker 04

  But I never thought Kiss was like, played good rock and roll songs, really.

• 49:40Josh Clark?

  That's very surprising.

• 49:41Speaker 04

  I know Kiss fans are gonna be so mad at me for saying their music is not good, but I mean, there's a reason they, they dressed up and spit blood and stuff.

• 49:49Josh Clark?

  So there's a, but it's still, it'd be worth playing. I, I agree.

• 49:53Speaker 04

  No, it looked fun.

• 49:54Josh Clark?

  The one that I would actually travel to go play, um, is called Park King. It's in Lincolnshire, Illinois. So I'd probably go there and then I'd dip down or dip up, I'm not sure, to Palatine to play Algar Makers.

• 50:06Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 50:07Josh Clark?

  But Park King is like exactly what, it is, it's the pinnacle of a miniature golf course, if you ask me. It's got it all. It's difficult and it has all of the amazing obstacles and weird traps and, um, functioning problems to figure out that, that a miniature golf course should have.

• 50:27Speaker 04

  It looked pretty cool. I mean, I'm a putt putt guy, but I was checking out pictures and stuff. I would, I would go, I would go to Park King with you for sure.

• 50:34Josh Clark?

  Okay, we'll go. It's gonna be a summer trip in 2022 or three.

• 50:39Speaker 04

  Fantastic.

• 50:41Josh Clark?

  And then if you want to play, so I think Chuck, this one would be up your alley. It's called Golf Gardens on Catalina Island in SoCal.

• 50:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, right up my alley.

• 50:50Josh Clark?

  This one is like considered the hardest miniature golf course in the United States. Not just because it's difficultly laid out, but also because it's been played so much that it's got all sorts of weird notches and stuff that's not supposed to be there.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:05Josh Clark?

  In the playing surface, so that makes it all the more difficult, which is kind of neat.

• 51:09Speaker 04

  I love that.

• 51:10Josh Clark?

  And then if you want to go retro, I think that one's been around a while. You can go down to Florida and they have a historic mini golf trail that takes you from miniature golf course to miniature golf course, all of which have been around for at least 50 years.

• 51:24Speaker 04

  Amazing.

• 51:26Josh Clark?

  And if you like weird old stuff that's not in use anymore, look up abandoned miniature golf courses. That's a fun thing to do. And since I said it's a fun thing to do, everybody, that means it's time for listener mail.

• 51:40Speaker 04

  All right, I'm gonna call this dad mail. Got this very sweet email. I love it when the families listen, you know?

• 51:46Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm, sure.

• 51:46Speaker 04

  Especially when they're not, I mean, I like families with young kids that listen, but I also like it when it's adults and then older parents that are listening.

• 51:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  "Hey guys, hope you're hanging in there. These are such tricky times. I know you're, I'm not the only listener that turns to your show for a distraction, or a soundtrack to washing dishes, or background noise while trying to run, or just something that feels normal during these abnormal times. Couple of years ago, my now husband and I took a road trip with my parents to stay with my now in-laws. As we pulled out of the driveway, we put on Stuff You Should Know and spent the entire journey sharing your catalog with them, and they were immediately hooked. My parents continue to love your podcast, but every time my dad refers to it, he mixes up the name." I love this stuff. "So far, he's called you Guys You Should Know."

• 52:32Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 52:32Speaker 04

  "Stuff You Oughta Know."

• 52:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  "Things You Need To Know." And Stuff Guys.

• 52:39Josh Clark?

  Stuff Guys is, that's a good nickname.

• 52:42Speaker 04

  Uh, lately, he's just been referring to you as The Guys Podcast, which is close enough for me.

• 52:47Josh Clark?

  Eventually, we're just gonna get to the.

• 52:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 04

  Uh, thanks for all the amazing work and the thoughtful approach you have to podcasting. So grateful to have multiple episodes to listen to every week. That is from Maribeth, and she says, P S, I should add that the episode on fractals is now infamously nap inducing in my family. But I blame the long stretch of highway on that.

• 53:10Josh Clark?

  Thank you. That was very kind of you.

• 53:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, nice save.

• 53:13Josh Clark?

  Really pulled it out at the end there. Um, who's that, Maribeth?

• 53:17Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 53:18Josh Clark?

  Uh, well, if you want to be like Maribeth and get in touch with us, um, we would appreciate that. Right now, you can send it to us via email. That's the best way to reach us at [email protected].

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 53:48Josh Clark?

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• 54:19Speaker 08

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 54:32Speaker 09

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 55:15Speaker 09

  This is an advertisement for Zolair paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 55:19Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.