Selects: How Personality Tests Work

For millennia, we have tried to put human personalities into neat types, an effort psychology took up early in its history in an effort to legitimize itself. But is the idea of types – which all personality inventories are based on - flawed to begin with? Find out in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:05Josh Clark?

  Hey everybody, it's me, Josh. And for this week's select, I've chosen our August 2017 episode on personality tests. It turns out that the vast majority of them, maybe all of them, are scientifically faulty to at least some degree. And some of them are just outright made up. This can be a real problem if they're being used to diagnose you with a mental illness or hire or fire you or put you in jail. And that actually happens. So dig into this deceptively interesting episode and enjoy it. And I'm an ENFP, by the way.

• 1:43Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:52Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry over there. And this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 2:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, just a couple of. I T J S's.

• 2:08Josh Clark?

  I don't remember what I am. We've taken it before. HowStuffWorks hosted it years back. Do you remember?

• 2:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, we had, like many companies do, as you'll see, we had, when we were under Discovery's tender wing, they paid for someone to come to our office and administer the Myers-Briggs personality test.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  At gunpoint.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure I was an ENFP.

• 2:34Josh Clark?

  I don't remember what I was. I'll probably say like three different things as we go through this one.

• 2:40Speaker 03

  Like, just looking at it again, I'm pretty sure I was an ENFP.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  P stands for Pisces.

• 2:46Josh Clark?

  Right. Or Pooper.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  Let's see. Extroverted, intuitive.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  What is the F stand for? Feeling Pooper.

• 3:01Speaker 03

  This is a spoiler. Yeah, Feeling Pooper.

• 3:03Josh Clark?

  So we're, what we're talking about, it sounds like we're saying strings of letters. They actually do make sense if you're familiar with what Chuck just said, the Myers-Briggs type inventory, which if you are in corporate America and have been a part of corporate America for more than probably three years, there's probably a pretty good likelihood that you've taken the Myers-Briggs type inventory.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 3:28Josh Clark?

  Like, it's really widespread.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, people love it.

• 3:31Josh Clark?

  I saw something like 13% of companies in America use it. That's a lot.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, was it 89 of the Fortune 100 use it?

• 3:41Josh Clark?

  Right. And then I saw another stat. It was from 2001, though, so I'm not sure how current it is.

• 3:48Speaker 03

  Well, 16 years old.

• 3:50Josh Clark?

  Right. But they said that the

• 3:55Josh Clark?

  I think British companies, somewhere between 10 and 40% of British companies use them.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  All right.

• 4:02Josh Clark?

  So, I mean, it's, who knows? It's a pretty wild guess, it sounds like, but.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  I wonder if they have their own?

• 4:08Josh Clark?

  It's, uh, no.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  Same one?

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  The Myers-Briggs test, they don't call it a test, as we'll see.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 4:14Josh Clark?

  But the, the test, um, is, it's worldwide. It's translated into tons of different languages. They, and no, it's, it's the Myers-Briggs test. And there's tons of knockoffs.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Oh, sure.

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  There's tons of personality tests in general, which really is the, uh, larger umbrella that the Myers-Briggs test falls under. But it's probably the most famous of all time, at least as far as pop culture goes.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're gonna hit on everything from Rorschach to the Myers-Briggs.

• 4:42Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  But.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  We're gonna hit on them.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  But the MBTI definitely, um, is more the focus of this one because of its ubiquity.

• 4:50Josh Clark?

  Right, because most people know it. And because it's, uh, one of the overlooked pastimes in the United States to take potshots at the Myers-Briggs type inventory.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 5:02Josh Clark?

  It's fun.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  So categorizing one's personality is nothing new, uh, and that's what these tests aim to do. For various reasons, which we'll go over later, but, um, going back, and this was a Grabster article, correct?

• 5:20Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  So you know it's good.

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 5:23Speaker 03

  And Grabster was just on our show in Toronto.

• 5:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  For the second time.

• 5:27Josh Clark?

  He stood up and like, did that victory shake?

• 5:30Speaker 03

  Oh, did he do that?

• 5:31Josh Clark?

  No, he didn't.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Oh. I'm a big fan of that. That's old school.

• 5:34Josh Clark?

  Oh, it is. It's a good way to go. It looks like you should be wearing those dolphin shorts and just having crossed the finish line and you're doing that.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  So, yeah, it's, it's nothing new, trying to categorize personalities. Um, way back in the day, uh, I know on our, um, Grave robbing, live grave robbing episode. We talked about the four humors.

• 5:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 5:54Speaker 03

  And we've talked about them before, um, before medical science was kind of a real thing.

• 6:02Josh Clark?

  There was an early attempt.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. They talked about the four fluids, or the four humors, black bile, yellow bile, phlegm and blood. Uh, and an imbalance in those will cause disease, but they were also, and this is something I didn't know, these are also linked to, uh, corresponding personality types.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah. So like the word melancholy in English, it's an adaptation of the Greek words, I believe, for black bile.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  There it is.

• 6:33Josh Clark?

  And melancholy personalities were associated with an overabundance of black bile. And, um, basically you're melancholy, you're, you're a depressed person, or you're very reserved or quiet. And for thousands of years, people thought, guy's got a lot of black bile.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:51Josh Clark?

  That explains his personality. The other ones are pretty, pretty, um, interesting too, like phlegmatic.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  Uh, phlegmatic?

• 7:00Josh Clark?

  I've seen phlegmatic, I've heard phlegmatic.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 7:03Josh Clark?

  I've seen it too.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  So like when you cough something up, do you call it phlegm?

• 7:07Josh Clark?

  Sometimes.

• 7:08Speaker 03

  Or just phleg?

• 7:08Josh Clark?

  Depends. If it had like a lot of extra chunks in it, it's phlegm.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh.

• 7:13Josh Clark?

  But phlegmatic, I say phlegmatic.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 7:16Josh Clark?

  Uh, that's very laid back. Did you know that?

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Uh, well, yeah, cause I looked all these up.

• 7:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  Um, cause sanguine is one of my favorite words.

• 7:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  Um, and that's, this is Hippocrates, by the way, he, he kind of further refined these concepts of the temperament. So melancholic, phlegmatic, sanguine, and what is it? Caloric.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah. Caloric.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:38Josh Clark?

  Caloric.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  Caloric.

• 7:40Josh Clark?

  Caloric is like irritable and short and terse and curt.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:45Josh Clark?

  But the thing is, there's something weird here, right? If you are a thinking human being.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:53Josh Clark?

  Who is not in a vegetative state right now.

• 7:55Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 7:56Josh Clark?

  And for all we know, at this point in medical science, maybe even if you are in a vegetative state, you're probably thinking, uh, it doesn't seem like anyone I've ever met is just phlegmatic, or just choleric, or just sanguine.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:13Josh Clark?

  Or just melancholy. Sometimes I'm all for those things. Sometimes I go through those things all four in a day, depending on how weird the day is.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  Sometimes I go through all four of those within the course of one happy hour.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Sure, okay, right. And, and that's kind of the point here, and it's also the basis of any criticism from this moment in the podcast here on out, is that this whole thing that started back with the four humors and continues on to this day in the guise of personality tests.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:44Josh Clark?

  Is an attempt to take a human personality and say, you're this.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:50Josh Clark?

  You're this one type. You're this type. This is your type. This is what you're like, right?

• 8:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:55Josh Clark?

  And the human personality is just too complex, too squishy, too jelly-like to be boxed into one thing like that.

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and we'll get into all the criticisms, but that definitely is the leading criticism that is, uh, well, we'll save that.

• 9:10Josh Clark?

  Okay. That was a tease.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  It was a good tease.

• 9:14Josh Clark?

  It was a phlegmatic one.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  Uh, all these classifications, though, um, that we talk about now are, uh, or most of them at least, are derived, uh, laid at the feet of one man, one Carl Jung.

• 9:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Who wrote a book called, uh, Psychological Types.

• 9:31Josh Clark?

  How do you say it, though, in, in German?

• 9:33Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 9:34Josh Clark?

  It's, um, oh, where is it? Let me see. Oh, there it is. I, I can't even begin to do it.

• 9:41Speaker 03

  Uh, psycho, psycho, sorry, psychologisches?

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Yish, psychologisch, typen.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  It's not bad.

• 9:51Speaker 03

  It's so tiny, that was the problem, cuz you-

• 9:52Josh Clark?

  Oh yeah, I do ten point. I don't like to waste paper.

• 9:55Speaker 03

  Well, you know me, I'm-

• 9:57Josh Clark?

  You do like sixteen point, Times New Roman?

• 9:59Speaker 03

  I love paper, and I don't wanna waste it, but I also have to do my job.

• 10:05Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  Maybe I should go double sided, but then my highlighter gets in the way.

• 10:09Josh Clark?

  Oh yeah, it'd be a problem.

• 10:11Speaker 03

  Oh man.

• 10:12Josh Clark?

  Everything would be highlighted. You might as well just dip the whole page in yellow ink or something.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. So anyway, Jung wrote this book, that book, in nineteen twenty-one in German, and had it translated to English a couple of years later.

• 10:26Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:26Speaker 03

  And he created these four categories, sensation, intuition, thinking and feeling.

• 10:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:36Speaker 03

  So those were his four that, kind of, most of these modern tests are based on in some way or another.

• 10:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and it's really almost impossible that, I guess we could just save all the criticisms for the end and just pile them on, but it's really tough to talk about this stuff and not like, as you present one fact, talk about the problem with that fact as it relates to modern incarnation. What do you think we should do? Should we just save them like you say? Cuz I can bite my tongue.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's save them.

• 11:06Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  And then you can just like-

• 11:08Josh Clark?

  I'm not even trying, like, I'm not, I'm not going crop circle here. I'm just saying, like, there's just, there's just a lot wrong with this. But even before Jung, who created these, the, the concept of, the modern concept, I should say, of personality types, and he created the idea of introvert and extrovert, which, say what you will about Jung, and a lot of psychologists have a lot to say about him.

• 11:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:30Josh Clark?

  Not necessarily the nicest things to say, but introversion and extroversion is so widely accepted-

• 11:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:38Josh Clark?

  Inside and out of the field of psychology that, I mean, if that were his only contribution to the field, that's, that's enough to engrave it on your tombstone, for sure.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, and each of those four psychological types he was talking about are modified by whether or not you're introverted or extroverted.

• 11:58Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  So they all kind of work together to box you in.

• 12:00Josh Clark?

  That was like the, right, that was the main thing, is how you, how you approach life as introvert or extrovert, and everything else is like a sub- Kind of a subsection of that or something?

• 12:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and one of the issues with this, and I don't think this is part of the criticism, but-

• 12:15Josh Clark?

  I was gonna say, I thought we were saving him.

• 12:17Speaker 03

  He was, uh, this was based on his ideas. It wasn't like he had all this research and all this data. He, he was a deep thinker and he sat around and, and thought of these things.

• 12:30Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. And then he wrote entire books based on them.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:34Josh Clark?

  But he's a very well-respected psychoanalyst and he was part of the early movement for psychoanalysis with Freud. They were, they were colleagues, although Jung was much younger. But they eventually said, "I don't like you anymore, we're parting ways." But as, as all, as psychoanalysis was really kind of establishing itself, and if you want to know more about that background and the origin of psychoanalysis, go listen to our How PR Works, the live show.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:04Josh Clark?

  We talked a lot about that. But as this was going on, and it was starting to kind of dominate the field of psychology, there was a whole other movement, a parallel movement, that said, "You know what? We think all that's a little mushy. We like the idea of being able to quantify psychology."

• 13:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:23Josh Clark?

  And so even before Jung, there were guys like Alfred Binet, who was one of the indirect fathers of the intelligence test.

• 13:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:32Josh Clark?

  IQ test. A pair of researchers named Gray and Wheelwright, and plenty of others who wanted to say, "No, no, no, no. You can study psychology, you can study things like the human personality, and you can typify them, you can add numbers, you can quantify this stuff. And in doing so, we will prove psychology as a science as well." So this, this whole movement to typify people and put them into convenient, almost numerical categories-

• 14:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:04Josh Clark?

  Came out of this urgent need to, to establish a scientific basis for psychology.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Jung, uh, he's kind of laid the table for this and many years later, although not that many, um, there was a woman named Catherine Cook Briggs.

• 14:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  Uh, and she was working on this with, uh, her daughter, uh, one Isabel Briggs Myers.

• 14:28Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  Think you see where this is going.

• 14:30Josh Clark?

  I do.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Uh, this is post-World War II when they, women were kind of, for the first time, really going, uh, into the workforce in full.

• 14:38Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  Uh, and en masse. And so they thought, well, maybe we can put together some personality types to find out, um, what kind of jobs these women might be suited for, what types of jobs they might enjoy.

• 14:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Um, so they started working together on this and, um, as legend has it, the, the mom, Catherine, uh, Briggs, Cook Briggs, she was doing her thing and then saw Jung's works and said, I gotta start over. This is, this is the stuff.

• 15:08Josh Clark?

  She had already been working on a personality test.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:10Josh Clark?

  But apparently, according to the legend, threw her work into the fire.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:15Josh Clark?

  Said, I'm starting from scratch.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  It's all dramatic.

• 15:18Josh Clark?

  She was a voracious reader, uh, especially of, um, the psychology, the new psychology books that were coming out of Europe, right?

• 15:26Speaker 03

  She didn't read Jung?

• 15:27Josh Clark?

  She did.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Well, eventually, but.

• 15:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and then.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  Seems like it kind of came along later.

• 15:32Josh Clark?

  Well, so, yeah, there's a, there's kind of a weird discrepancy in the history and I don't know if it's just it hasn't been covered right, or if there is a weird discrepancy, but supposedly she initiated it. And so it would have been contemporary or shortly after Jung's psychology or personality types.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:50Josh Clark?

  Was translated into English in 1923.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:54Josh Clark?

  So, but it was her daughter Isabel who really, uh, took it and ran with it because of World War II and the need for, uh, women in the workplace.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Correct. Uh, so they, you know, kind of kept some of Jung's stuff built on that. They kind of stripped some of it away. Uh, most notably, a lot of the unconscious stuff. And they might've thought that was a little too weird for, you know, the modern American workforce.

• 16:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Uh, so what they ended up coming up with was the, the MBTI, Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

• 16:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Very famously.

• 16:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they had a, they had a publishing arrangement with one group. I can't remember what they were called, but they thought it didn't do very well. And then in 1975, they went with another publisher, CPP. And they're the current publishers of the Myers-Briggs

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:41Josh Clark?

  Type Indicator. And since then, it, that's when its ubiquity like just really spread, was starting in the seventies. And, and now it's just, it's basically married to corporate America.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Should we take a break?

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  Go get married to corporate America?

• 16:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, as if we aren't already.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  All right, we'll come back and we'll talk a little bit about personality tests in general, and then focus in a little more on the MBTI.

• 17:18Speaker 04

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• 19:46Speaker 03

  All right. So personality test is just, there are many, many ways you can get evaluated psychologically by a professional. This is just one way.

• 19:57Josh Clark?

  You can get your head measured with calipers.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  In fact, in the day, they did that, right?

• 20:01Josh Clark?

  They'd give you a bunch of drugs and see what you do. There's a lot of ways.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  But these tests generally, as Grabster points out, falls into a couple of types: projective and objective. Projective tests are things like the Rorschach test, where you're shown something. Uh, some kind of stimulus and it's open to interpretation and you tell them what you think about it. And someone sits back very quietly and taps on a pad of paper and makes an evaluation.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Very interesting.

• 20:31Speaker 03

  And then objective are more like these personality tests. They're standardized assessments that people use. And while it's subjective, what you put down, they are then evaluated again by a professional.

• 20:45Josh Clark?

  Right, but ultimately that objective name is a bit of a misnomer because on the end of it, it's still interpreted by a person.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:54Josh Clark?

  Which is therefore makes it subjective.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:57Josh Clark?

  And which, depending on who you ask, is the fatal flaw of all personality tests.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  It should be the, uh, like, uh, good songs from the seventies had a little parenthetical at the end of the title.

• 21:07Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  It should just say subjective also.

• 21:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:10Speaker 03

  In parentheses.

• 21:11Josh Clark?

  Baby.

• 21:15Speaker 03

  So the big five are, and, and this is, the big five, I get the feeling are the psychological tests that, that legit psychologists are more in favor of over something like the MBTI. Is that right?

• 21:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's not just, there's tests to suss out the big five. The big five are the personality types that the field of psychology has come up with.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, but the tests that, that you utilize that.

• 21:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  They kind of think are more legit than the MBTI.

• 21:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's not a psychologist alive who uses the, the MBTI in their regular practice.

• 21:48Speaker 03

  Oh, I bet there are.

• 21:49Josh Clark?

  Not, not, not that, not that are speaking up.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  I guarantee you there's someone out there.

• 21:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 21:55Josh Clark?

  It's a freewheeling type. Where's she?

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Uh, so the big five are extroversion, agreeableness, openness to experience, uh, conscientiousness and neuroticism.

• 22:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  Sounds like it could be like a dating site thing that you fill out.

• 22:12Josh Clark?

  It's funny, every time I see or hear the word neuroticism, a bell goes off in my head. Like ding.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Just a silent bell?

• 22:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't know what that means.

• 22:24Josh Clark?

  I don't either, but it draws my attention to it.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  So some of these tests, I mean, it depends on what it is. They might not all call them by those exact words, but they're generally using, they call them, you know, like I said, the big five.

• 22:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I was, I was looking into that big five and this, this site, I can't remember what it was called, but they were basically, they were going over it, like extraversion is again, just part of the scientific literature at this point.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:52Josh Clark?

  Agreeableness is like whether you're, how sympathetic or kind or affectionate you are.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:57Josh Clark?

  Conscientiousness is are you organized, are you thorough, are you the type who shows up on time? That kind of thing.

• 23:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:03Josh Clark?

  Neuroticism, which is some kind, sometimes called emotional stability. How tense are you? How moody? How anxious? Ding.

• 23:13Josh Clark?

  And then like openness to experience, right?

• 23:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:16Josh Clark?

  They sometimes call that intellect slash imagination. Do you have wide interests?

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:20Josh Clark?

  Are you an imaginative person? Are you insightful? And this, this site really went to a lot of pains to point out that what you would call these things, the big five personality traits are, as far as a psychologist is concerned, just one dimension of you, the human being.

• 23:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:39Josh Clark?

  And that to get a clearer picture of you, they would also need to study your motivations, your emotions, your attitudes, your abilities, your self-concepts, your social roles, autobiographical memories, your life stories. And if you start to put all these things together, then you can start to kind of approximate the person's personality.

• 23:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:58Josh Clark?

  But it would just, it, it takes a lot of study of an individual and these different components that make up their personality to get a clear picture. So I don't think there are any psychologists walking around saying, the big five personality types are like the beginning and end of a personality.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:14Josh Clark?

  It's just, if you put them together, you have a, just a sketch of somebody's personality and you, you should go much deeper if you're analyzing someone.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, I used to think this stuff was a lot neater when I was younger. And now it kind of gives me a little anxiety.

• 24:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 24:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, like I just, I don't know, as far as doing this to myself, and I still enjoy therapy. Like, that's different, but I don't know, because every single one of these, I like, my answer would be, well, it depends.

• 24:42Josh Clark?

  Well, I think, I think also, though, and I don't mean to speak for you, but one of the issues that's, that's comes up for me is if somebody goes to you and says, you know, you, you, you rate pretty high on the spectrum of neuroticism. Like, that's, obviously, you're gonna obsess about that kind of stuff, especially if they're right.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  It can make you neurotic.

• 25:03Josh Clark?

  But, yeah, it's, it's a boundary that somebody has just established for you that you may need, feel the need to stay in. Because that's the boundary that you're bound by, whether you are or not.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  Like, this is my box.

• 25:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  I'll live in it.

• 25:18Josh Clark?

  That would be the reason it raises anxiety for me.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, my whole thing, like I said, though, is just depends. Every single question that I would get asked, well, not everyone, sometimes I'm pretty, like, set on something, but usually I'd say, I don't know, depends on the scenario.

• 25:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Am I more prone in a crowd to do X or Y? Maybe.

• 25:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  Maybe not, depends on my mood.

• 25:40Josh Clark?

  So, one, one, with these other personality tests, and, and the whole field in psychology of studying traits, personality traits, in a quantitative way is called psychometrics.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:55Josh Clark?

  So, with these tests, the more sophisticated ones, if they had a test taker like you, they're designed to get around that. So, they're gonna ask a bunch of different questions about the same thing, but in different ways, coming from different directions. So that eventually, if you put all of them together and run them through a statistical analysis, they're actually gonna come up with your genuine answer, which is kind of one way or another.

• 26:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 26:20Josh Clark?

  The other way that they get around this, that kind of... Hemming and hawing, I guess, is by placing it on a spectrum. You're not being lumped into one category or another. It's here's one end of the spectrum. Here's the other end of the spectrum. And based on your answers, you fall somewhere around the middle. Like, almost everybody does.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 26:42Josh Clark?

  If you look at psychometric tests, a legitimate psychometric test is going to basically look like a bell curve.

• 26:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:48Josh Clark?

  Where most people are going to be distributed toward the middle.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think what, that's why it gives me anxiety. It's like, what's the point? Don't box me in.

• 26:57Josh Clark?

  It's a great question.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Well, I think the second half of this is a lot of what's the point?

• 27:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 03

  You know? So, looking, speaking on these tests to see if it's actually, if there is a point, if it's a valid thing to do. There are a couple of measures that one must look at and that psychologists do look at. Is it valid and is it reliable? Valid in the sense that it really is a pretty good reflection of Josh or Chuck.

• 27:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  Or whoever. And is it reliable? So if we take this test tomorrow or a different test that's just, you know, maybe different questions, will it reproduce the same result?

• 27:37Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  And that's a big deal. Like, if you're talking science.

• 27:41Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:41Speaker 03

  And you're trying to have a foundation that says, no, this is science. It's not just a bunch of questions, hippie dippy questions that we're asking. If you really want real data and science behind it, you have to be able to reproduce it.

• 27:54Josh Clark?

  Right. One of the other things, too, that these tests are designed to do is to weed out fakers.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 28:03Josh Clark?

  We'll talk a lot more about the Minnesota multi-phasic personality inventory, which is one of the big ones.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:12Josh Clark?

  Probably the most taken personality test in the world.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  And it has a lot of built-in mechanisms and apparently is really good at detecting people who are faking, they're faking a mental illness, or who are trying to pretend that they aren't suffering from a mental illness.

• 28:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:30Josh Clark?

  It's really good at detecting that because it's so exhaustive. And using statistical analysis, if somebody is skewed really far one way or skewed really far the other, they're just immediately exposed as...

• 28:45Josh Clark?

  Gaming the test as best they can.

• 28:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, in one way they do that, which is in its own way, its own little psychology experiment, at least, is by telling you we have ways.

• 28:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Like you will be rooted rooted out and we will know.

• 28:59Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  So they tell people that beforehand. So you're more inclined to just be like, all right, well, screw it. I'll tell the truth.

• 29:05Josh Clark?

  Right. Especially when they're sitting there like clearing the air out of a syringe.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  That's creepy.

• 29:13Josh Clark?

  It is.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  All right. So let's get back to CPP and the MBTI. The Consulting Psychologists Press.

• 29:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  And the Myers-Briggs, we'll just keep calling it a test, even though they say it's not a test.

• 29:27Josh Clark?

  It's a it's a type inventory.

• 29:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. So we'll just go ahead and break down the deal here. There are. The the object is to sort you into one of 16 different types, personality types, based on which side of four pairs or dichotomies that you're going to fall on. And those are, at the very base, you're either introverted or extroverted, like we said, E or I.

• 29:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:52Speaker 03

  Sensing or intuition, S and N. And these words, they sound a little confusing. Like, what the heck does a sensing person mean?

• 30:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  It means you like the big data and empirical data and a lot of information.

• 30:07Josh Clark?

  Right. Whereas intuition is like you just go with your gut. That's how you prefer to be.

• 30:12Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  Right?

• 30:13Speaker 03

  The next we have thinking and feeling, thinking being more focused on logic. Did I say logic with a T?

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  And objectivity. And then if you're feeling, you're going to be more interested in in relationships and harmony among your group.

• 30:32Josh Clark?

  Those two are pretty straightforward.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so.

• 30:34Josh Clark?

  And then lastly, there's judging and perceiving. Those are, that's a dichotomy. Judging is where you you prefer schedules, you prefer decisiveness. That's how you kind of approach life.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:49Josh Clark?

  And perceiving is where you're just kind of like, whatever. Yeah, I'm not too worried about it.

• 30:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:55Josh Clark?

  That's almost kind of like the difference between the type A and type B personalities, which by the way was made up by a pair of cardiologists.

• 31:04Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 31:04Josh Clark?

  Whose work was later secretly funded by the tobacco industry, who were looking for anything to explain heart attacks besides smoking. So they funded type A and type B personality research for years.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 31:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it really is. There's a, just as an aside, there's a really interesting Price, I think, yeah, Price nomics article.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  On type A and type B?

• 31:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, just look it up. I don't remember the name.

• 31:32Speaker 03

  All right.

• 31:34Speaker 03

  So when you sit down to take one of these not tests with a series of questions that you answer.

• 31:40Josh Clark?

  I think they call them instruments, by the way. Psychometric instruments.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  Which are basically a series of questions on a piece of paper.

• 31:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it sounds like a test.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  They will say things like, Ed has some good examples here. When you go on a trip, do you want everything planned out in advance? Or would you rather just take each day as it comes, do whatever you feel like?

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Pretty straightforward kind of stuff.

• 32:02Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  And then they also have things like word pairs, just to see literally what word you like better, like compassion, foresight, like which word do you like better?

• 32:15Josh Clark?

  Carrots or fruit?

• 32:18Speaker 03

  Fruit.

• 32:19Josh Clark?

  Fruit, yeah. It's just prettier.

• 32:21Speaker 03

  It is.

• 32:22Josh Clark?

  So I'm looking back here, I just want to say, so I think.

• 32:28Speaker 03

  You trying to figure out what you were?

• 32:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think E N F P, maybe? I think.

• 32:34Speaker 03

  That's what I was. We weren't the same thing.

• 32:36Josh Clark?

  I don't remember. Yumi and I got the same thing. She found an old email, but she forgot to tell me what we were.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 32:42Josh Clark?

  I really, I don't know.

• 32:46Josh Clark?

  Problem is, would we still be the same today?

• 32:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think if I'm not mistaken, didn't we have this up on a big board in the office?

• 32:53Josh Clark?

  For a while? I think so, yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  That seems like a, Jerry's nodding, that seems like a breach of protocol.

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 32:58Speaker 03

  Like privacy.

• 33:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, again, being forced at gunpoint to do it was just from the start.

• 33:04Speaker 03

  I remember it was kind of fun. I had a fun day.

• 33:06Josh Clark?

  We'll talk about that as well.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Um, so it's gonna cost you, if you just do this as a single individual, um, not meaning, not married, but just a person. About fifty bucks, um, although they should charge more if you're married. It's more complex test. Uh, about fifty bucks. If you want an hour of feedback, that'll cost you an extra hundred. Uh, if you want a career report all typed up, uh, that'll be sixteen ninety-five.

• 33:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 03

  And if you, um, this is fifteen hundred dollars for a onsite training class. Is that like what we had?

• 33:36Josh Clark?

  So this is a, this is not very well explained. If you want to administer the Myers-Briggs personality or type inventory.

• 33:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:45Josh Clark?

  You can get certified. It's a four-day training course.

• 33:48Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 33:49Josh Clark?

  And you pay fifteen hundred to sixteen hundred dollars.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Oh, that's what that is.

• 33:52Josh Clark?

  You cannot legally administer this test, or you're infringing on their copyrights.

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:56Josh Clark?

  Unless you are certified by CPP to do this.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  And we should do it with one another on the air and risk a lawsuit.

• 34:03Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, well, you probably got a suit already with that one question you asked out loud.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  Which one? Oh, just the one?

• 34:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah, when you go on a trip, do you want everything planned out in advance?

• 34:13Speaker 03

  I just made that up.

• 34:14Josh Clark?

  Oh, good job, good job.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  I got that from, uh, Travelocity.

• 34:17Josh Clark?

  Nice, okay. Yeah, that little gnome whispered it in your ear.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 34:21Josh Clark?

  But so you, you, uh, would go and get certified, and then now you can go around to businesses and say, hey, uh, do you want to know more about your employees? You want to know who's good at what?

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:32Josh Clark?

  Let me come give, uh, the Myers-Briggs type inventory to your, your, um, employees and it'll be wonderful, right? So that's how the whole process goes. You pay to become certified, and then you go become something of a, an evangelist for the Myers-Briggs test, and you sell the test. You basically become a salesman as well.

• 34:53Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:54Josh Clark?

  It's a, it's a very interesting, um, dynamic that they have going.

• 34:58Speaker 03

  That is. It's a good word, dynamic. Um.

• 35:03Speaker 03

  They want to point out that the person taking the test is the expert.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  And they also use this metaphor of handedness, which I didn't fully understand. They say things like, it feels more comfortable to sign your name with your dominant hand, but technically you can sign with your non-dominant hand if you need to.

• 35:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:23Speaker 03

  I'm not sure what they're trying to prove there.

• 35:25Josh Clark?

  They're trying to say that despite the MBTI pigeonholing you fully in one category or another, rather than on a spectrum, they're saying that category that it's pigeonholing you into is actually just your preference. It's not you specifically, it's just.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  Your incline predisposition.

• 35:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you tend to be an extrovert, but of course, everybody likes their own personal alone time. So yeah, you're going to be an introvert once in a while, but you're an extrovert more than than other times.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, because I can't sign my name with my left hand. That, I didn't like that analogy because it literally, I can barely hold a pen with my left hand. I'm seeing you're doing it right now.

• 36:10Josh Clark?

  Wow, that's pretty bad.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  If I tried to do it, it would look like a, a three-year-old with arthritis has tried to like scribble it out.

• 36:19Josh Clark?

  Mine, mine looks like UDM.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  UDM?

• 36:23Josh Clark?

  UDM.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  UDM?

• 36:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, UDM. It's my signature with my left hand.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  And they do, they do try and point out, like you said, that

• 36:36Speaker 03

  it's interesting because they box you in, but at the same time, they're saying, but you know, like you said, it's just predisposition. Don't really think of it about you being this type of person, even though you are an ENFP.

• 36:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:51Speaker 03

  Like you said, it was earlier, it was almost numbered. I mean, it is, it's lettered.

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  Right. This is a different way of quantifying it.

• 36:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:00Josh Clark?

  But without numbers. All right. You want to take a break? And then come back and, and maybe do a little criticism?

• 37:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:07Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 37:29Speaker 05

  Literalmente, un momentico para ti. How's your corazón feeling today? If it's a little tired, a little oof, you're not alone. Have you eaten algo rico, taken a deep breath? Maybe even turned off your phone for cinco minutitos? I promise, the memes will still be there. Sometimes self-care isn't candles and meditation. It's just saying no. It's drinking a little bit of agua. It's letting yourself rest sin pena. You don't have to prove anything today. Just be, breathe. Estas haciendo lo mejor que puedes. And yes, that's enough. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 38:06Speaker 04

  Hello, hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with IBM's Ana Paula Acees about what digital sovereignty actually means in the age of AI.

• 38:17Speaker 00

  AI now moves from somebody operating a system to the technology actually making decisions. So you have to have a much better visibility of what AI is touching, data it is accessing, and where.

• 38:33Speaker 04

  Hear the full conversation wherever you get your podcasts.

• 38:48Josh Clark?

  All right, Chuck, like I said, it's kind of a pastime in the United States to tee off on the Myers-Briggs type inventory.

• 38:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is not us here. This is a

• 38:57Josh Clark?

  No, this is us talking about other people teeing off on it.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's widely been criticized over the years from psychologists and, well,

• 39:08Speaker 03

  amateur know-nothings like us.

• 39:11Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  One of the big criticisms is that companies use this stuff in hiring and firing and promoting.

• 39:20Josh Clark?

  But even the Myers-Briggs people, CPP, say, like, don't do that.

• 39:24Speaker 03

  Well, I know, but they say that, but then don't go to an office and get hired by a corporation to administer it.

• 39:31Josh Clark?

  Right, or go sell your services, you know?

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, agreed. And that's part of the problem. To me, that is more

• 39:42Josh Clark?

  Um, the corporation's fault.

• 39:46Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. Well, sure.

• 39:47Josh Clark?

  Like, if you have an HR person who's like, diehard believer in the MBTI.

• 39:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:54Josh Clark?

  And will hire or fire somebody based on their MBTI type.

• 39:59Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 40:00Josh Clark?

  Fire that person.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:02Josh Clark?

  Because you have a real dum-dum on your hands.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  They're a DD.

• 40:05Josh Clark?

  And they should not be responsible for people's livelihoods.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:09Josh Clark?

  Even, I don't think they would put it quite in those terms, but even the Myers-Briggs people say like, you shouldn't use this for hiring or firing. And yet, yes, some people do. Some people swear by this. The impression that I have is that the Myers-Briggs people tend to think of this as more like a team-building exercise.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:31Josh Clark?

  Or where like a certified MBTI administrator can come to your place, get all your employees together, and they find out like all their personality types. And by the way, there's not a single negative personality type. And all personality types are equal.

• 40:49Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 40:49Josh Clark?

  So everybody gets a participant ribbon in the form of their personality type.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:53Josh Clark?

  And, um, but at the same time, and this seems to be the crux. At the same time, everybody's finding out like, oh, you're a little different than me, and I'm a little different than you.

• 41:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:04Josh Clark?

  And we all have differences and different perspectives. So let's celebrate that and let's respect one another's differences. And there is the actual point, from what I understand, of the Myers-Briggs type inventory and taking it in a corporate setting.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  That's what stands out to me as what happened with us was.

• 41:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  I remember it kind of being a fun day.

• 41:24Josh Clark?

  They were like tootsie rolls.

• 41:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, we all goofed off and had a good time. And the person leading it, if they're good at what they do, which this person was, is always. You know, it's always kind of a fun person and cracking jokes and they don't take it too seriously.

• 41:38Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:39Speaker 03

  None of us took it too seriously. And we all had a good time and it did, it was very much like a team building thing.

• 41:46Josh Clark?

  Right. So as long as there's like a wink, wink, nudge, nudge kind of thing.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:50Josh Clark?

  And the people who take it, actually take it seriously are taken off to the side by their HR rep to say like, no, this is a a little less serious than you're taking it. Then it's fine. But yes, once you start deciding people's fate based on this, then you have real problems because as just about anybody will tell you, the Myers-Briggs type inventory is based at best on some shaky science, if at all. If you go back to the very beginning, it's based on the theories of Carl Jung, which have never been based on science. They were basically personal observations by Jung. And the psychology community has disavowed Jung in large part.

• 42:30Josh Clark?

  So therefore, anything based on his teachings and theories is by proxy disavowed as well. But if that weren't enough, psychology as a field loves going after the Myers-Briggs type inventory. Just loves it as totally baseless scientifically.

• 42:46Speaker 03

  All right. So we've got shouldn't use it to hire and fire in corporations or give promotions.

• 42:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  We have not based on real science and scientific data.

• 42:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  These four dichotomies are problematic in and of themselves because

• 43:07Speaker 03

  everyone is on a spectrum. You can't say like, you know, you answered these 10 questions. So you're either this or you're that.

• 43:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  And when one of the rebuttals, because I think Ed interviewed someone from CPP, right?

• 43:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  One of the rebuttals about being a non-repeatab

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Experiment of sorts is like, hey, yesterday I was an ENFP and today I'm this. They'll say, well, you know what, if you had different answers, that means you were sort of on the cusp, right there in that center line on some of these questions. And you might've just leapt over to that other side, which means you're basically kind of down the center. Yet they don't have a categorization.

• 43:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:49Speaker 03

  For down the center.

• 43:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because depending on, as Ed puts it, you could answer all 24 questions on the feeling side.

• 43:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:58Josh Clark?

  And you're going to get the same result as somebody who answered 11 questions for thinking and 13 questions for feeling.

• 44:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 44:05Josh Clark?

  Same thing, you're still both an F in that respect. And I saw elsewhere, it put like, if the Myers-Briggs test measured height, you would either be tall or short.

• 44:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:16Josh Clark?

  You could say, well, actually, I'm right there in the middle. And they'd be like, well, that's short.

• 44:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 44:20Josh Clark?

  Or for you, it's short. For the guy who is the same exact height, they're tall.

• 44:25Speaker 03

  Right, and trust me, nobody that's 5'10" likes to be considered short.

• 44:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  I can say that from experience.

• 44:31Josh Clark?

  Because you're not, you're in, you're average.

• 44:33Speaker 03

  I'm average.

• 44:33Josh Clark?

  Right, so.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  I like being average.

• 44:35Josh Clark?

  The fact that there isn't a spectrum is one thing that really makes it in stark contrast of other, much more widely accepted psychometric instruments.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  For sure. Ed also points out too, the Grabster, that there, the construction of the instrument itself is problematic. Because one, like we talked about, it's self-reporting. Anytime you're self-reporting, there's going to be some weird bias in there.

• 45:04Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Just almost impossible to avoid 100%.

• 45:07Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  And the other one is that, he says, a couple of these dichotomies are entangled, which I never really thought about that, but that's a pretty good point.

• 45:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  So judging-perceiving scale are correlated with answers on the sensing-intuition scale. And if you, like, those should be separated out, for sure.

• 45:30Josh Clark?

  For sure.

• 45:31Speaker 03

  I don't know why they don't.

• 45:34Josh Clark?

  I don't either.

• 45:34Speaker 03

  You know?

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  Because they've really put a lot of work into this.

• 45:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, it's not baked in stone from the 1940s and 50s and 60s, is it?

• 45:43Josh Clark?

  No, it's not. And even while they were creating, it was an ongoing exhaustive process that Mrs. Briggs and Mrs. Myers engaged in.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, we don't want to give, they spent decades on this.

• 45:56Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  It wasn't like something they threw together.

• 45:57Josh Clark?

  No, the problem is, is they, they did it backwards. They came up with the personality types and then set about

• 46:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 46:05Josh Clark?

  creating the test that would detect these personality types, rather than going out and testing people, seeing what personality types emerged, and then figuring out a test to find that in other people. They did it backwards.

• 46:17Speaker 03

  That's a good point.

• 46:17Josh Clark?

  It was based on Jung, but it was not for lack of trying. Like, as a matter of fact, one of the first things they did after they, they started to really establish the test, was they, they managed to administer it to like 5,000 George Washington University medical students.

• 46:31Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 46:32Josh Clark?

  And they, they took those results and tracked the students to see what fields of medicine they went in. They like really worked on this. I wrote an article in the Washington Post where this, I think Isabel Myers's son remembers, their vacations were basically like fact finding missions all around the country. Like, they would go administer tests, like, everything was about this test, and they worked on it for decades. So, yeah, the problem is, it was just, it's just not based on science. They didn't follow the scientific method.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:06Josh Clark?

  So, sci- so, science kind of poo-poos the MBTI. But wait, wait, wait, get back here, because a lot of these criticisms fall just as easily on every other psychometric test around.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, and that's one of the things that, I can't remember who was interviewed in here, but, in one of those other articles you sent, one of the Myers, or, I don't know if it was, or maybe it was a Rorschach defender.

• 47:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:37Speaker 03

  Said, you know, like, everyone, yeah, it was Rorschach, like, everyone's always picking on Rorschach.

• 47:41Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  When all of these psychological tests are You know, subject to criticism.

• 47:48Josh Clark?

  They are.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  You know?

• 47:49Josh Clark?

  I think it's really easy for to tee off on Rorschach as well, because, I mean, we're talking inkblots, man. It is the epitome of subjective self-reporting. You're saying, I, uh, let's see, in this one, I see mom's boobs. Uh, yeah, mom's boobs in that one, too.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  This one is dad's boobs.

• 48:07Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. So, and then from that, it was strictly up to, uh, initially Rorschach, who I think came up with this test in 1915, 1917.

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Was the name Herman?

• 48:19Josh Clark?

  Uh, I think so. He's a Swiss psychiatrist.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  Herman Rorschach?

• 48:22Josh Clark?

  It was, it was initially up to him and then later on his followers to interpret this, which is basically like interpreting dreams.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:33Josh Clark?

  And, um.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  So subjective.

• 48:35Josh Clark?

  Totally subjective, from beginning to end. And then in, I think, 1975, a guy at Bowling Green State University, uh, which is right outside of Toledo,

• 48:46Josh Clark?

  came up with this, a really exhaustive interpretive test that sought to quantify Rorschach answers.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, John Exner.

• 48:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 03

  Uh, and it was a test called the Comprehensive System, uh, 140 components. And in this article you sent, they said that Rorschach was probably going away, um, had it not been for Exner's accompaniment, um, with this other process.

• 49:14Josh Clark?

  Right, and even today, he's got an institute in Asheville that's dedicated to the Rorschach test, right? So, one thing I've noticed from researching this is each of these personality inventories has like its adherents and its detractors.

• 49:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:30Josh Clark?

  And just judging from the outside, it looks a lot like cults.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:34Josh Clark?

  Gathered around their various idols, right?

• 49:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's interesting.

• 49:38Josh Clark?

  There's like the original figurehead who came up with it and everybody worships them. And then he's attacked by these other followers who have a very similar figurehead.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:46Josh Clark?

  Who came up with something very similar, but it's just different enough that, that there's a huge chasm between the two. And there's a lot of dogma surrounding it. But, uh, the Rorschach test in particular is apparently well-known to give wildly inaccurate results.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  I took one today.

• 50:02Josh Clark?

  Did you?

• 50:03Speaker 03

  Online.

• 50:03Josh Clark?

  How'd you do?

• 50:04Speaker 03

  Uh, I got two out of 10, which means, um, I was only two. Two away, whatever that means, from being labeled like a psychotic.

• 50:14Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, there was a-

• 50:15Speaker 03

  You get four out of 10, I think.

• 50:16Josh Clark?

  There was a- oh, really?

• 50:17Speaker 03

  I think that's what it said, yeah.

• 50:18Josh Clark?

  Wow, that's close.

• 50:19Speaker 03

  And this is an online test. I don't know if it's like how true it was to the original.

• 50:24Josh Clark?

  I gotcha.

• 50:25Speaker 03

  Or maybe the original.

• 50:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, could be. And then they have a algorithm that runs the analysis for you?

• 50:31Speaker 03

  I kept seeing all kinds of things when I looked at it. And I've never done an inkblot test. I would say, "Oh, that looks like a bat." And then they'll say, "No, it's like two bunnies." And then, "No, it looks like a cool Mardi Gras mask."

• 50:41Josh Clark?

  Did it- did they move to you? Did you see colors?

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Well, some of them were colored.

• 50:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 50:46Speaker 03

  Most of them were black. And they had a- the one I took had a one and a two, like, um, what do you see? And what's like a secondary thing that you see?

• 50:55Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 50:56Speaker 03

  So, you know.

• 50:57Josh Clark?

  Supposedly, people who are supporters of the Rorschach test say, "No, man, there's- we don't know how it's working, but if you see movement in the Rorschach inkblot, it's suggestive of depression or something like that." And they say statistically it's correlated. But like I was saying, it's also notorious for giving incorrect results.

• 51:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, like saying you're- you have a mental illness.

• 51:18Josh Clark?

  Right, okay. So, there was this study in 2000 that was given to like 100 mentally sound elementary school kids.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:27Josh Clark?

  And some like high percentage of them came back as borderline psychotic because of the Rorschach test, right? And it's hilarious to hear stories like that. Like, I'm laughing inside right now. But, um, the problem is, is you're at the very least being labeled as psychotic.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 51:45Josh Clark?

  Not a label you want in society.

• 51:47Speaker 03

  No.

• 51:47Josh Clark?

  And it was because of this inkblot test that's 100 years old.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:52Josh Clark?

  And then, secondly, these tests are also being submitted and accepted as evidence in criminal trials.

• 52:00Speaker 03

  That's the biggest part.

• 52:01Josh Clark?

  Child custody cases?

• 52:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, they're- they're still given real weight and like- Lives are changed and ruined based on looking at 100-year-old inkblots.

• 52:11Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 52:11Speaker 03

  And a person's subjective analysis of that.

• 52:14Josh Clark?

  That's not okay.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  No, this, um, Howard Garb in this one article you sent, he's a co-author of What's Wrong with the Rorschach. And he is head of psych- or at least at the time of this article, he may still be head of psychological testing for the Air Force. Uh, he said that even with Exner's comprehensive system, he said only 10% of his system even meets the most basic scientific standards. And um, they did the examined data of over 30 different Rorschach studies. And he said, they all have a tendency to label healthy people mentally ill.

• 52:47Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  And if you're trying to get custody of your kid, or if you are on trial as a criminal, like it's just, that's the last thing you need.

• 52:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  Is somebody's subjective opinion of, is it a bunny or is it a bat?

• 53:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, he said a bat. Take that kid.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  You know?

• 53:03Josh Clark?

  Quick.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  Kid's like, I like bunnies.

• 53:07Josh Clark?

  The um, another one that that we have to talk about is the MMPI, now the MMPI dash two, I think as of 2012, they revised it dramatically.

• 53:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, does this one, is that right? It has over 500 questions?

• 53:21Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:21Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 53:22Josh Clark?

  Some of them originally were about like your bowel movements.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 53:26Josh Clark?

  Um, really nutso questions that supposedly really got to the heart of whether you were mentally disturbed or not, right?

• 53:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:36Josh Clark?

  And it was created at the University of Minnesota in the 40s by a psychiatrist and a neurologist, I believe. And they hit upon a pretty clever idea. They said, we're not going to interpret the results, right? And say, you know, oh, this person said that they do feel like smashing something sometimes.

• 53:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:57Josh Clark?

  And that means this. Instead, we're going to come up with this test of like 504 questions. And we're going to give it to the patient or the family and staff of a mental hospital who we're sure are sane. And we're going to take their answers and they're going to become our control group, our baseline.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:18Josh Clark?

  So then anybody who takes this test, we're going to compare the test taker's answers to the sane control group's answers. And, you know, depending on how it relates to the sane control group, they're either mentally ill or not.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  You better have gotten that control group right.

• 54:33Josh Clark?

  Well, that's the thing.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  To begin with.

• 54:35Josh Clark?

  So, a group of like, family and friends in Minnesota is the picture of sanity throughout the world is the basis of this test. That's a huge problem with it to begin with.

• 54:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:46Josh Clark?

  But apparently, a lot of people say like, no, it really has, it does a pretty good job of sussing out mental illness.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:55Josh Clark?

  Um, it's also really good at detecting faker, faking one way or the other.

• 54:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:00Josh Clark?

  Um, but it's, it's too invasive. And when companies use it for hiring and firing, it's way too invasive. And apparently lawsuits have been filed against companies for using it.

• 55:11Speaker 03

  Well, I think that, um, most people are far more, um, troubled than they ever let on in life.

• 55:23Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 55:23Speaker 03

  And, um, part of success in life comes down to how good you are at, um, covering that up, or hiding it, or dealing with it and processing it.

• 55:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's optimal.

• 55:37Speaker 03

  Coming to terms with it. Um, it's just to find a core group that are quote unquote, sane, normal people.

• 55:47Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  Um, it's just, you're starting off with a, a problem, if you ask me.

• 55:52Josh Clark?

  A faulty premise, right?

• 55:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it just, there's no way. Like, everyone has their issues, their deep, dark, uh, things that their brain that they don't want anyone to know. Sometimes even the people closest to them don't even know.

• 56:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And actually, you, you're in agreement with this, a sociologist named William White, who criticized the MMPI as a, a tool that helped to create and perpetuate the oppressive group think of mid-century organization man.

• 56:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:22Josh Clark?

  Where it's basically like, here is what we think is normal. Anything outside of that is abnormal. And we're not going to hire you because you don't fit into this picture of normalcy, which is basically white crew cut Minnesota.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:34Josh Clark?

  From the 40s.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 56:35Josh Clark?

  That's the picture of normalcy. That's highly debatable.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  Uh, the other thing I thought was interesting is a lot of skeptics and critics point to things like the MBTI, uh, and saying, this is just like astrology.

• 56:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 03

  It's really no different than reading your horoscope, because it's all positive psychology. Um, at the end of a, of a Myers-Briggs, um, non-test.

• 56:58Speaker 03

  No one walks away feeling bad usually. It's all sort of positive wording and like, like this is what you are. You're just this. So kind of don't worry about it. The same way you read your horoscope in a, in a given day. I mean, how many horoscopes say like, um, today you, you will be prone to depression and wonder what it's all about.

• 57:19Josh Clark?

  Right. Maybe you should work on your core character because people don't like being around you that much. You don't hear that kind of stuff.

• 57:26Speaker 03

  No.

• 57:26Josh Clark?

  But that taps into what's called the Forer effect. F O R E R. There is a psychiatrist named Bertram Forer.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  I thought this was so interesting.

• 57:35Josh Clark?

  He, he, well, take it. It's pretty interesting stuff.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, basically didn't he give the same? He had people take these tests and then gave all of the people the exact same assessment.

• 57:45Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 57:46Speaker 03

  But telling everyone it was tailored for them, their own personality assessment. And I think the people who just thought it was favorable were like, this is great.

• 57:53Josh Clark?

  Well, it was favorable. He actually called it from daily horoscopes.

• 57:57Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, but what were they responding positively to?

• 58:00Josh Clark?

  Well, they, it was.

• 58:01Speaker 03

  Whether or not they wanted to feel that way about themselves?

• 58:03Josh Clark?

  It was a positive assessment. There was nothing negative in there. So it was all positive stuff. Like you have a lot of unused potential, that kind of stuff. Stuff people wanted to identify with, right? So the more flattering it was, the more likely the people were to say, this is an accurate assessment of me.

• 58:19Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 58:20Josh Clark?

  So despite the fact that it was the same one given to the entire class, he took their answers and threw them out and said, here's your assessment. It was the same one for everybody.

• 58:27Speaker 03

  That's about right.

• 58:28Josh Clark?

  It got like an 85% accuracy from the class as a whole.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  Well, that's what I wanted to do was about the 15% where those people just super honest.

• 58:35Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 58:36Speaker 03

  And like, no, this really.

• 58:37Josh Clark?

  No, people actually don't like being around me. I'm using all of my potential and they still don't like me.

• 58:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I couldn't figure out. But I guess that makes sense. There are people out there that are, I think I would be one of those that would be like, this isn't right.

• 58:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  I'm not like that.

• 58:52Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  You got anything else?

• 58:54Josh Clark?

  I think not.

• 58:56Speaker 03

  This is a good one. We've been, we've been wanting to do this for a while.

• 58:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah. This is a special request by me.

• 59:02Speaker 03

  And others.

• 59:05Josh Clark?

  Uh, if you want to know more about personality tests, well, you can go take them online. They're kind of huge right now. Uh, find out what kind of, um, hobbit you are. I don't know.

• 59:16Speaker 03

  What box do you live in?

• 59:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And in the meantime, you can type personality test in the search bar at houseofworks.com. And since I said that, it's time for listener mail.

• 59:28Speaker 03

  The only thing that should live in a box is

• 59:32Speaker 03

  temporary housing for a pet frog.

• 59:35Josh Clark?

  That's not bad. Or the stuff you find in a tree hole that Boo Radley left for you.

• 59:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that can live in a box. Uh, hey, guys. Feel compelled to write you today to tell you how grateful I am for your show and praise your good work. Recently became a listener and I'm working my way through the entire archive. Think a lot of folks might be able to relate to this. Until recently, I found out I found it really hard to relax and suffer with anxiety. Two months ago, I read an article basically pointing out how our obsession with being productive and associated guilt is a modern phenomenon. I think that for sure, you know?

• 1:00:10Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 1:00:10Speaker 03

  Although I had heard this before, something really clicked in my head. So I decided to abandon guilt and embrace relaxation, taking control of my own stress levels. You guys have been a big part of this. I have taken the time to slowly potter around my flat, go for walks while listening and learning to your fascinating podcasts, and they've lifted my mood. I feel mentally healthier than I ever have before.

• 1:00:32Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 1:00:32Speaker 03

  Although the content of what you discuss might not always be positive, the way in which you explain them and your own views personally revive my hope in humanity.

• 1:00:40Josh Clark?

  That is ridiculously flattering.

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  Isn't that nice?

• 1:00:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Speaker 03

  I guess I should also mention that a big part of my tackling anxiety levels has been to abandon watching television.

• 1:00:49Josh Clark?

  And fistfuls of psychotropic drugs.

• 1:00:52Speaker 03

  I would be really interested to know if there's been any research conducted into the effect TV has upon our lives. Oh, I'm sure there has been.

• 1:00:58Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 1:00:59Speaker 03

  I haven't owned a TV for many years, but my partner has since subscribed to an online provider. And I realize how watching TV has not helped my anxiety. I also remember reading that after TVs became mainstream in Bhutan, their crime rate went up something like 700%. Might prove an interesting topic for a future show.

• 1:01:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  Anyway, sincerely grateful. Keep it up. I'm now recommending your shows to as many people as I can. Big love from the UK, Mac.

• 1:01:25Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Mac. That was great. We hear from a lot of people, actually, who say that we help them with their anxiety. No idea how, but it doesn't matter. So, thank you.

• 1:01:34Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:01:35Josh Clark?

  Yep. If you want to get in touch with us like Mac did, you can send us an email to [email protected].

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 1:02:01Josh Clark?

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